The truth about Kareem in the 1970's

[Roundball_Rock]

Dankok8's great work warrants a thread of its own to dispel the myths about the GOAT in the 1970's.

Setting the record straight: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the 1970's


Here is my view on Kareem's career from '71 to '79 before Magic arrived. This is a response to LAZERUSS's posts above.

Let's begin with 71-72...

That season it is absolutely true that the Bucks were dominant and could be considered favorites over the Lakers... BUT WITH A HEALTHY OSCAR! In fact a couple of months ago I compiled some data on the Bucks play with and without the Big O in the regular season.

Bucks With Oscar (62 games)

50-12 record (66-win pace)
MOV of 12.87 (NBA Record pace by far :bowdown:)

Bucks Without Oscar (20 games)

*this includes 18 games he completely missed, the one he got injured in on Feb. 4 vs LA and the game on Feb 18 against Philly where he tried playing but was a complete shell and then took off two more weeks after

13-7 record (53-win pace)
MOV of 3.75

Quite a dramatic difference don't you think. The only reason the Bucks could stay afloat and still be a very good team without Oscar is Kareem's insane level of play. In those aforementioned 20 games without the Big O Kareem averaged:

39.5 ppg, 16.8 rpg, 5.6 apg on 58.7 %FG/73.7 %FT

We are missing rebounds, assists, and FG% in 2 or 3 games but that's insane!

You won't find many if any 20-game stretches more dominant than that in NBA history. Included there was a 50-pointer on Wilt and two 50-pointers on Dave Cowens.

Oscar of course was a complete shell in the playoffs because of his abdominal strain including the WCF against the Lakers.





To make matters worse two key back-up guards John McGlocklin (4th best player) and Wali Jones were completely useless because of injuries with Jon missing a few games in the WCF as well.

Here is an article link that highlights the Bucks' injuries:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=AV80AAAAIBAJ&sjid=M5wEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6971,1413423

Realistically speaking, Kareem (while himself fighting a leg injury) put together a heroic performance in the '72 WCF. 33.7 ppg, 17.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, and probably 4-5 bpg as well. He did shoot 45.7% (major credit to Wilt's defense...) but he did so on over 30 field goal attempts! He had to shoot a lot because of so many injuries. And with so many shots and such a brutal defensive series that's a solid FG% regardless...

The Bucks should have been obliterated by the Lakers considering their state of injuries. They had a hobbled Oscar and Lucious Allen going up against West and Goodrich. McMillian was shooting the lights out and Hairston was outplaying Curtis Perry... The only reason the series was close was Kareem's play.

The original thread can be found at http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322217&page=5.

[Roundball_Rock]

On to 72-73...

I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Even though Dandridge was injured and played subpar Kareem should have played better against the Warriors. He did easily outplay Nate individually but he could have done more.


In 73-74 however... Oscar again had a back injury 34 games into the season and was never the same. Let's compare:

First 34 Games with a Healthy Oscar

Oscar: 15.4 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 6.9 apg on 45.0 %FG/84.4 %FT
Bucks Record: 27-7 (65 win pace)
Bucks MOV: 12.21 (WOW!)

Next 48 Games

Oscar: 10.1 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 5.8 apg on 42.6 %FG/82.4 %FT
Bucks Record: 32-16 (55 win pace)
Bucks MOV: 5.08

In the playoffs Oscar averaged a resurgent 14.0 ppg and 9.3 apg on 45.0% shooting through injury but in the Finals against a tough-nosed Celtics backcourt of White and Chaney the going was much tougher.

Bucks also missed starting SG Lucious Allen to injury. He was DNP for the entire playoffs.

Kareem was a beast in the '74 Finals averaging 32.6 ppg, 12.1 rpg, and 5.4 apg on 52.4% shooting for the series . He won 2 games by blocking a Cowens shot in Game 2 and then swishing a skyhook in Game 6. Coach Tom Heinsohn decided to change strategy and double and triple Kareem in Game 7 instead of going man-to-man with Cowens as he had for the first 6 games.

Poor Oscar averaged just 12.1 ppg, 3.7 rpg, and 8.1 apg on 43.2% shooting in the Finals including a 6 points Game 7 on 2-13 shooting.

Don't forget those Celtics were coming off of a dominant 68-win season the year before. There is no way anyone could consider the Bucks without Lucious Allen and a declining Oscar better than those Celtics.

Again without Kareem's dominant play and winning 2 games with clutch plays the series probably ends in 4-5 games in favor of Boston. Positions 1 through 4 the Celtics just outclassed the Bucks.

JoJo > Oscar
Chaney > McGlocklin
Hondo >> Dandridge
Silas > Perry


In 74-75 Oscar was retired, Lucious Allen missed 72 games, and yet Kareem kept the Bucks afloat. In the games he played healthy the Bucks were 35-30 (44 win pace). In the game he missed (plus the game he got injured in) Bucks were 3-14 (14 win pace). He was worth 30 extra wins to his team. I don't know what else to say.

Part 3 coming up next.

[ArbitraryWater]

Arguable GOAT :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

In 75-76 Kareem was on his new team. It was a terrible roster of aging players and just scoring guards. Funny thing is despite going 40-42 the Lakers missed the playoffs to a 38-win and 36-win teams because of dumb seeding. LA had a 4th best record and 3rd best SRS in the conference but they were only 3rd in their own division.

Also Kareem that year led the league in rebounding, blocks, and his defensive impact was off the charts. He had a DRtg of 90 compared to team DRtg of 98.8 (13th of 18 teams). With him on the floor LA had the best defensive team in the league (DRtg of 90 would be #1 in the league...) and without him on the floor they were probably close to last.


In 76-77 you correctly stated that Kareem outplayed Walton while his own teammates were outplay by Portland's. There is no need to add anything here. There is Game 2 and Game 4 of that series on YT for everyone to see.


In 77-78 Kareem can be blamed for stupidly losing his cool and punching Kent Benson. However we see a same old familiar trend with his team. When Kareem was playing healthy the Lakers were 37-24 (50 win pace) and without him they were 8-13 (31 win pace).

That look like a good team but honestly they were NOT. There was no one who defended or rebounded well other than Kareem. 21 year old Dantley "the cancer", rookie 22 year old Nixon, and super old declining Lou Hudson who was no longer a good player. Wilkes was solid but he played PF out of position as he did the next year.

In the playoffs against the Sonics Kareem had a fairly good series. In a Game 2 win he had 20 points in the 2nd half including 5 blocks in the 4th quarter. In the decisive Game 3 he had a 33/11 game but it was never close.


In 78-79 the Lakers like in 77-78 were simply atrocious as far as perimeter defense and team rebounding. Take a look at these numbers containing the rebounding numbers of the 78-79 and 79-80. Note that Kareem actually rebounded better in 78-79 so it's obvious the difference is from his teammates.



With such terrible rebounding margins it's a miracle the Lakers could win as much as they did. The Nuggets outrebounded them by 7.3 boards a game but Kareem was a monster in that series averaging 28.0 ppg, 13.3 rpg, 5.0 apg, 5.0 bpg on 61.5 %FG and hit a game-winning shot in Game 3.

Against the Sonics they were outrebounded by 13.2 a game!! Kareem had another great series with 28.8 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 4.6 apg, 3.6 bpg on 56.0 %FG. Despite the 4-1 result it was pretty close. 2 games were decided in OT and another came down to Nixon missing a game-winning shot.

Another problem apart form rebounding is the Sonics' 3-headed dragon of Gus Williams, Dennis Johnson, and Fred Brown averaged about 60 ppg in that series. They completely and totally obliterated Laker guards Norm Nixon, Ron Boone (scrub) and Don Ford (scrub) beyond any recognition.

In 79-80 Kareem didn't play any better against Seattle. He was just as dominant in both years but LA easily beat them in '80. Difference is now they outrebounded Seattle by 3.8 a game. Dantley was replaced by Chones/Haywood who rebounded and Cooper was worked into the rotation which helped defend the Seattle guards.

The LA offense (and defense of course) changed remarkably little with Magic's arrival. If anything he helped them most on the boards.

:bowdown: dankok8!

[Uncle Drew]

2nd greatest to ever play, slightly behind Lew Alcindor.

[fpliii]

2nd greatest to ever play, slightly behind Lew Alcindor.
:lebronamazed:

[Uncle Drew]

:lebronamazed:
Yeah, I know what you're thinking. I just liked him better when he was still Alcindor.

[fpliii]

Yeah, I know what you're thinking. I just liked him better when he was still Alcindor.
Remember this thread?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317475

I know Laz, PHILA, and a few others are a big fan of young Kareem (Alcindor days) too. Dude was super mobile.

[SHAQisGOAT]

MY goodness :bowdown: GOAT center, #2 all-time, top5 peak. He was a monster, especially in 77 :bowdown:

[Milbuck]

In those games without the Big O Kareem averaged:

39.5 ppg, 16.8 rpg, 5.6 apg on 58.7 %FG/73.7 %FT

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[JellyBean]

:applause: props, dankok8 and Roundball_Rock

[juju151111]

Wow great #2 Goat:applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Thanks. Te be clear, this thread is not intended to argue that Kareem is the GOAT. The purpose of the thread is to help put his career in context and help combat some of the myths. It seems all a lot of people know is "Kareem only won 1 ring before Magic" but when you look at the details it is not surprising why. Kareem clearly held up his end of the bargain.


e was a monster, especially in 77

:bowdown: Some of those games are available on YT. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIDn1niGCag&list=PL49533C6EE172C622 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIDn1niGCag&list=PL49533C6EE172C622

[knicksman]

2 rings at most as the man. jordan at age 32 has 4 rings compared to his 2 rings. LOL for a supposed to be dominant.

[Artillery]

Weakest era in NBA history. Not to mention Kareem's defense was average(which might explain why his teams were so poor defensively)

[SHAQisGOAT]

Weakest era in NBA history. Not to mention Kareem's defense was average(which might explain why his teams were so poor defensively)

:biggums: Stop posting if you're saying bullshit like that.

1st of all look at some of the best centers he faced h2h:

Wilt
Moses
Walton
Hakeem
Thurmond
Lanier
Unseld
Ewing
Cowens
Eaton
Parish
......
If that's weak, what do you call today? :lol That's as good as it gets and he was still dropping 40+ on young Hakeem (with Sampson), in his late 30s.

Dude won a ring in the early 70s and was still winning in the late 80s, all against great teams and always proving his worth

So weak-era (assuming you're talking about the 70s even, if you're saying 80s you're bat-shit crazy)??? Not even close.

Average defense? :facepalm :facepalm He made 15 all-defensive teams, which is the record, in great center era, including 10 1st-team. He was 2x leader in DWS and 12x in the top10, 4x top5 in DRtg, 4x leader in BPG, 9x in the top5. Anchored the best ranked defense 2 times and top10 D more than 10 times, even with some really shitty defensive teammates sometimes. Would've gotten at least 2 DPOY's if the award was already given out in his prime.
Stop talking nonsense like that :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

And now...for the REAL story...


I have Kareem ranked in my all-time Top-5. And a peak KAJ was probably 2-3. I was blessed to have watched many of his UCLA games (including the "Astrodome Game", and the rematch in the NCAA semis), and IMHO, Kareem (Alcindor) was clearly the greatest college player of all time. And really, as great as Walton was, (and I have him at #2 in college history), he was was not the player that Alcindor was. And both Alcindor and Walton could have scored far more. Wooden preached balanced attacks, and of course, with those Bruin teams routinely winning games by 30+ points, neither played anywhere near the minutes that they could have.

And I will say it one more time. A PEAK Kareem, which came early in his career (kep in mind though, that he played four years at UCLA)...was nearly on the same level, at least offensively, as a peak Wilt. IMHO, a Kareem from mid-way thru his rookie year, thru his '71 regular season, his '71 post-season, and thru his '72 regular season, was perhaps the second most dominant player of all-time. And while his scoring was higher in '72, he played four more mpg. His '71 numbers actually were more impressive given his mpg.

In any case, both seasons were just monster years. The only difference between the two, was that KAJ was much better in his '71 post-season (albeit, his Bucks had no competition.) But again, even that Kareem was outplayed in both their five regular season H2H's, and then their five playoff H2H's, by an old Wilt (who had arguably the worst season of his career.)

Now, as most everyone here knows (or should know) by now, was that Kareem won three straight NCAA titles (and three straight Tourney MVPs), and most assuredly would have won four of each had freshman been allowed to play in '66. And while his Bucks didn't win it all in his rookie season, he (and other's like Dandridge) took a 27-55 team to a 56-26 record. And in the EDF's, he easily outplayed MVP Reed (albeit, in the clinching game five blowout loss, Reed was the clear cut "winner".)

And in the '71 season, KAJ and his Bucks just slaughtered the league. KAJ led the NBA in scoring (again, in "only" 40 mpg), and his Bucks went 66-16 (and it could have been 71-11), and they set records that still stand in both the regular season and post-season. And they were never tested in that post-season, going 12-2, and having an eye-popping +14.5 ppg differential.) Again, though, a Wilt well-past-his-prime, outplayed him all season long.

So, going into that 71-72 season, the sky was the limit. KAJ, in only his second season, had won a runaway MVP, runaway FMVP, and led his team to an overwhelming title. And, aside from Oscar, this was a young Bucks roster, too. Virtually EVERY pre-season publication, as well as "expert opinions" had the Bucks running away with another title in '72, and likely many more.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

And...


Continued...

Meanwhile, the Lakers were coming off of a disappointing '71 season, in which both West and Baylor missed the playoffs (West missed the last fourth of the season, and Baylor missed all but two early season games), and it was a miracle that they went 48-34. In fact, Wilt single-handedly carried that decimated team past the Bulls in the first round, and then, again, outplayed a peak Kareem in the '71 WCF's (albeit, in a hopeless cause.)

LA did bring in a new coach, though. And Bill Sharman's first order of business was to convince Wilt (and the team) to shut-down the lane, dominate the glass, and fuel the fast-break (??!!) The critics howled with laughter. This was an OLD, injury-plagued roster, whose five starters ranged from ages 29 to 37. How in the hell was Sharman going to get this group of geezers to run?

Sharman's second order of business was to "persuade" Elgin Baylor to retire. Baylor did not want to go quietly, and it wasn't until after game nine that he was more-or-less forced to retire. After Baylor's departure, Sharman inserted second-year pro Jim McMillian into his starting slot.

And the rest was, as they say, history. McMillian's impact to the team was immediate. The Lakers reeled off an incredible 33 straight wins. Not only that, but they were winning those games in routs. The strategy of funneling everything into Wilt at the defensive end, and then with Chamberlain (and Happy Hairston) owning the glass, it allowed McMillian, West, and Goodrich to jump out on the break. And the results were astonishing. LA would go on to average 121 ppg, in a league that averaged 110 ppg, (and the next best team was at 116 ppg.) They demolished the entire NBA, and set a then record mark of 69-13 (and a still record differential of +12.3 ppg.)

And the domination was all encompassing. In the regular season, they only had two losses against one team, (the Suns, going 4-2), and they beat every team with at least one rout. Including their 12-3 post-season run, they went 8-2 against the HOF-laden Knicks; 7-1 against the 57-25 Bulls; 4-1 against the 56-26 Celtics; 5-1 against the 51-31 Warriors (including staggering margins of 129-99 and that 162-99 game); and 8-3 against the defending champion, and 63-19, Bucks.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

And...


Continued...

Back to Kareem.

Once again, from his '70 playoffs, thru the entire '71 regular and post-season, and thru the '72 regular season, KAJ just owned the NBA. And while the Bucks "fell" from 66-16 in '71, down to 63-19 in '72, the experts tabbed them to repeat in the playoffs.

And, the easily dispatched Thurmond's Warriors in the first round, 4-1. HOWEVER, for the FIRST time in KAJ's entire career (HS, College, and now the NBA...and aside from playing blind in the "Astrodome Game"), Abdul Jabbar was outplayed. In fact, easily outplayed. Thurmond outscored Nate, 25.4 ppg to 22.8 ppg, and outshot him, .437 to .405.

Still, his talented and young Bucks easily won that series, and it set up arguably the greatest playoff battle in NBA history.

The Lakers swept the pesky Bulls in their first round, and had HCA going into the WCF's. But, even though they had won the season series against the Bucks, 4-1, the "experts" gave the defending champion Bucks a slight edge.

And after game one, in which LA, a team that had averaged 121 ppg during the regular season, were blown out 93-72, it was now just a question as to how long it would take Milwaukee to wrap up the series.

Kareem had easily outplayed Wilt in game one, and again did so in game two. However, the Lakers, behind Jim McMillian's 42 points, (and a little help from an official in the waning seconds) escaped with a 135-134 win.

It was after game two that Sharman challenged Wilt to physically impose his will on Kareem. And from that point on, a stunned Kareem (as well as his fellow teammates, coach, and fans) was reduced to a shot-jacking brick-layer. Wilt was not only blocking the "unblockable" sky hook all over the gym, he was forcing Kareem a few feet further out than what he had been accustomed to. And while Kareem would still put up points, his effciency just nose-dived. In fact, aside from a couple of games, he never again put up a good game against Wilt in their last 10 H2H games (in fact, Chamberlain would go on to outscore Kareem in a '73 regular season H2H, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.)

In their last ten H2H games, Chamberlain held Kareem to...get this... a .434 FG%. Which included a .414 FG% in the last four games of the '72 WCF's. Even Kareem's "makes" were being contested, and most of those were lucky. Not only that, but Wilt was STILL shutting down the lane against the rest of the Bucks, as well. In his four known games, he had 33 blocks, 15 of which were on Kareem, and most of those were "skyhooks."

The Lakers went 3-1 in those last four games, but it was even more dominant than that. By game five they annihilated Milwaukee in LA, 115-90. And in game six, and down by 10 with ten minutes to go, Wilt took over the game, and the series. He completely shut KAJ down (2-8 from the field, with a couple of blocks), pounded him at the other end (9 points), and fueled a comeback that Jerry West described as "the greatest ball-busting performance I have ever seen." And Chamberlain was not only physically punishing Kareem, he was running him into the ground, as well.

LA stormed back to win that game six, 104-100, and Wilt had clearly outplayed Kareem in that game (despite Kareem's 37 points, he only shot 16-37, while Wilt scored 20 points on 8-12 shooting.)

Again, virtually everyone who witnessed that series, including the Milwaukee Press, claimed that a 35 year old Wilt had outplayed a peak 25 year old Kareem. Time Magazine carried it a step further, proclaiming that Wilt had DECISIVELY OUTPLAYED Kareem in that SERIES.

Chamberlain would go on to dominate the NBA Finals, including his epic clinching game five performance with one sprained wrist, and the other FRACTURED. He crushed the Knicks in that game with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds (NY had a combined 39 BTW), and 8 blocks (and a couple of very questionable goal-tends, too.) For the series, Wilt averaged 19 ppg, 23 rpg, 7.4 bpg, and shot .600 from the field...en route to a FMVP.

BTW, Jerry West had the worst post-season of his career, and the Lakers won a title DESPITE his atrocious shooting. Even he was subdued following his first ring of his career, which came in a Finals in which he shot .325 from the floor. As a side-note, Wilt's presence was such an overwhelming factor, that his Lakers romped to a 12-3 title run, despite his teammates collectively shooting .414 from the field in the entire post-season.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

And...


Continued...

The Bucks "dynasty" was ended before it ever got a foothold. The seemingly unstoppable Kareem would never again dominate the NBA the way he had up thru his '72 regular season.

His Bucks would go 60-22 in '73, but again, he couldn't hit the ocean from a lifeboat in his first round series against Nate's Warriors, averaging 22.8 ppg on a brutal .428 FG%. And even with Oscar playing brilliantly, the 47-35 Warriors shocked the Bucks, 4-2. In fact, the Warrior's PF, Clyde Lee led all rebounders in that series.

Meanwhile, Wilt led his 60-22 Lakers to a resounding 4-1 blowout of that same Warrior team, in a series in which Wilt just dominated Thurmond. He slaughted Nate on the glass, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg, and outshot Thurmond (as he always did) by a staggering .611 to .373 margin.

Still, the Lakers were nowhere near the team that they had been in '72, with injuries to Hairston, and then West. West was again, simply awful in that post-season, and even Goodrich contributed very little. The Knicks, with their SIX HOFers, won the last four games of the Finals, all in the waning seconds, and denied Wilt a title in his last season. In Wilt's very last game of his career, he scored 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

And...



Continued...

Wilt "retired" following the '73 season, although he didn't really know it at the time. I won't go into details, though, since the rest of this topic is now devoted to Kareem.

With Wilt no longer in the league, and Thurmond on a severe decline, the league was there for the taking for a still prime Kareem in '74. And while his numbers declined, he was still the best player in the game (albeit, Bob McAdoo was now becoming a force in the league.)

Kareem led the Bucks to his second Finals in his first five seasons, and up against the under-dog 56-26 Celtics. However, Boston was healthier, and had more firepower. KAJ played brilliantly in the first six games of that series, and going back to Milwaukee for a game seven, the Bucks were favored to finally return to what many had predicted would be a dynasty.

However, as was all too often the case in his career...in his biggest game, he had a huge letdown. The 6-9 red-headed Dave Cowens, whom Kareem had owned his entire career, and playing the entire 4th quarter with five fouls, just dominated Kareem in that fourth quarter. He easily outplayed Kareem in the game, as well, and the Celtics celebrated with a blowout win on Milwaukee's home court.

For the rest of the decade, Kareem was never again remotely close to going to the Finals.

Oscar retired after that '74 season, and with Kareem breaking his wrist on a dumb play, and missing 16 games, the Bucks floundered to a 38-44 record. Even with Kareem in the lineup, they only went 35-31, and missed the playoffs.

As a side-note, Rick Barry, along with rookie Jamaal Wilkes, and a cast of no-names, went 48-34 and won the title. More on that later.

Milwaukee ownership had grown tired of the moody Kareem, and shipped him off to LA before the start of the '76 season. Even without KAJ, they would one again go 38-44. Meanwhile, Kareem was joining a rapidly declining Laker team that had crumbled following Wilt's retirement. By the 74-75 season, they had plummeted to a 30-52 record (just another example of the TRUE impact of Chamberlain in his career.)

Remember Kareem's staggering 71-72 season, when he averaged 44.2 mpg, scored 34.8 ppg, and shot .574 from the field, for a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential?

THAT was the Kareem that the Lakers thought they had acquired. Instead, with KAJ often just going thru the motions, LA limped home with a 40-42 record, and for the second straight season, a prime KAJ missed the playoffs. Had Kareem played brilliantly it would have been much easier to swallow. Instead, he put up 41.2 mpg, 27.7 ppg (McAdoo averaged 31.1 ppg BTW), and shot .529 from the floor. He undeservedly won the MVP, though, despite McAdoo clearly having his second straight MVP season.

Laker management made a committment to surround Kareem with a better supporting cast in '77, and the results were much brighter. Kareem had an outstanding season, and led the Lakers to a league best 53-29 record. And he had a spectacular first round series against the fading Warriors (albeit Clifford Ray and part-time rookie Robert Parish were not very good.)

In the WCF's, Kareem, with an injured, and quite frankly, inferior roster, murdered Walton, but unlike a prime Wilt, Kareem couldn't single-handedly keep his team in that series. The Lakers were swept by the 49-33 Blazers, who would go on to win a title.

The Lakers really beefed up their roster going into the '78 season. They added Jamaal Wilkes (remember him?), and then in an early season acquisition, they add Adrian Dantley, who was averaging 27 ppg before the trade...to an already solid roster that included Norm Nixon and Lou Hudson.

Once again, KAJ pulled a ridiculous stunt, and yet again, broke his hand. Without KAJ, and no real backup center, the Lakers went 8-12 in the games Kareem missed. But even with a healthy KAJ, they finished the season a very disappointing 45-37. Even worse, with a basically uninterested Kareem, and facing a 47-35 Sonics team with nowhere near their talent level, LA lost in the first round. That Sonics team would go on to lose to the 44-38 Bullets in the Finals.

Going into the 78-79 season the expectations for the Lakers was clearly a title. They returned almost everyone from their '78 roster, that had under-achieved, and with a year together under their belts, and in a very weak NBA, they were expected to win it all.

Instead...and with an unmotivated KAJ...who played 80 games...they plodded home with a 47-35 record. And despite a solid, but not spectacular series from Kareem, they were wiped out by that same Sonics team, and their one borderline HOF player, 4-1. The 50-32 Sonics would go on to win a title.

That was a prime Kareem in his first ten seasons in the NBA. One easy title, one other trip to the Finals, where he choked away a game seven on his home floor, and for the rest of the decade...nothing but disappointments, and underachievements.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

And ...


Continued...

In the early 70's, Kareem was clearly the best player in the game, albeit, his "kryptonite" was in the form of Wilt and Thurmond.

In the mid-70's, a young and healthy McAdoo took over the top spot as the best player in the game, with an MVP, and two seconds (albeit, he was robbed of it in '76 by a Kareem, on a 40-42 team.)

In the mid-to-late 70's, players like Bill Walton, Bon Lanier, and Artis Gilmore were nearly his equal, as well.

And by the late 70's, Moses Malone became the most feared player in the league. In his 40 career H2H's with Kareem, he absolutely OWNED KAJ. The "Kareem-Killer" was now the most unstoppable player in the league.

However, fortune finally shown upon Kareem. Magic arrived in the 79-80 season, and the rest was history. Magic immediately guided the Lakers, who had been a cast of talented players who badly under-achieved, to a 60-22 record. Behind his brilliant leadership, and a renewed Kareem, they blew out the pesky Sonics in the WCF's, and went to face the loaded Sixers in the Finals.

Kareem had arguably his greatest post-season of his career, and his best Finals. Except for one thing...he would miss game six. In the first five games, Kareem had averaged 33 ppg, 14 rpg, and shot .554 from the field. And in game five, and with an injured ankle, he gutted out a 4th quarter with 14 points, en route to 40, in a 108-105 win, to give LA a 3-2 series lead going back to Philly.

However, the often fragile Kareem, decided not to give it a go in game six. Now the question was, where was his 33-14 numbers going to come from? as ALWAYS, MAGIC came up HUGE. He absolutely dominated the Sixers from the opening tap until the waning seconds. His performance was arguably the greatest "series clinching" game in NBA history. He hung 42 points, on 14-23 from the field, and 14-14 from the line, with 7 assists, and a game high 15 rebounds (the next best player on the floor had 10.) And he deservedly won the FMVP.


However, in the 80-81 season, Magic was injured early on, and would miss nearly all of the last half of the season. The talented Lakers went 28-17 without him, but he appeared to be rusty in the first round of the playoffs (albeit, he grabbed 13.7 rpg.) BUT, with Moses just crushing KAJ, his 40-42 Rockets, with no real surrounding talent, stunned the heavily-favored Lakers, 2-1. Kareem was not only beat in very facet of the game by Moses, but as was often the case in his post-season career, he had yet another series where he failed to shoot the league average (.462 in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .473.)

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

And...



Continued...

Lakers management threw all their eggs in Magic's basket. He signed a huge long term deal, and was clearly the leader of the Lakers. He even reportedly got head coach, Paul Westhead fired, and with it, the arrival of the "Riley era."

And from the 81-82 season on, Magic would outvote Kareem in the MVP balloting EVERY season.

And his value to the team was illustrated with yet another brilliant Finals in '82. For those that argue that Magic never won a ring without Kareem, we had several examples to the contrary, including the '82 post-season, and especially the Finals, when Bob McAdoo put up Kareem-like numbers on far less minutes. Magic led the Lakers to his second title in three season, and won yet another well-deserved FMVP (with a near triple-double series.)

The Sixers acquired Moses in '82-83, and as expected, they ran roughshod over the league. And with Worthy missing the Finals, and Magic for one of the few times in his playoff career, playing poorly (which proved that MAGIC had to play well for LA to win)...and with Moses just abusing Kareem, the Sixers swept the Lakers in the Finals. This would culminate a five year run in which Moses was, by far, the most dominant player in the league. And he wasn't just murdering Kareem in that span, either, but EVERY other center in the league. Even after that '83 season, he was still a force for several more seasons.

While Magic was unfairly labeled "Tragic Johnson" in the '84 Finals, still, had he and Worthy made just one FT down the stretch in game four, and they would have easily won another title (and Magic was on his way to his third FMVP, too.) In fact, had Big Game James not thrown a horrible pass in game two, and they could have (and should have) swept the Celtics. Still, "Tragic" put up a series in which he led LA in rebounding, scored 18 ppg, handed out 13 apg, and shot .560 from the field. Meanwhile, KAJ had a horrible game five, shooting 7-25 from the field, and overall, he shot .481 from the field in that series, and yet again, failed to shoot the post-season league average (.487.)

The Lakers stormed thru the NBA in '85, and got their revenge, in a huge way, in the Finals. After Kareem sleep-walked his way thru a game one loss of 148-114, KAJ woke up, and dominated the entire Celtic frontline the rest of the series. The Lakers won four of the last five games, including a 137-111 retribution, and then a solid clinching win in Boston in game six. For one of the few times in his post-season career with Magic, Kareem was finally their best player, at least in the Finals (Magic LED the Laker offense to a staggering 126.5 ppg in the entire post-season though.)

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

And finally...


Continued...

By the 85-86 season, Kareem was just a shell of what he had been. He could barely jump, and his rebounding had declined to embarrassing levels, especially for being 7-2.

He was still an elite offensive player, despite the phyiscal limitations. And when motivated, he could just destroy an opposing center. In fact, from his fiv H2H games in the 84-85 season, and his five H2H's in the '85-86 regular season, against Hakeem, he crushed Olajuwon. He averaged 32 ppg on a .621 FG% in those ten straight games, which included three games of 40, 43, and 46 points (on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.) In fact, because Kareem so thoroughly dominated Hakeem in that 46 point explosion, Bill Fitch moved Ralph Sampson on Kareem in the WCF's. BTW, in the same week that Kareem plastered Hakeem with that 46 point outburst, he wiped the floor with Patrick Ewing, outscoring Ewing, 40-9, and outshooting Patrick, 15-22 to 3-17.

The Lakers entered the '86 WCF's against the Rockets as prohibitive favorites, and after an easy game one win, it was just a question as to how long the series would go. But, with Sampson shutting Kareem down the rest of the series (overall, 27.7 ppg on a .496 FG%), and with Hakeem having a brilliant series (not having to defend KAJ obviously helped), the Rockets stunned the Lakers. Magic once again did not play well, and the pattern was the same...a blowout series loss.

By the 86-87 season, Riley decided that Magic needed to become the focal point of the offense. In fact, he also asked Worthy to take his place as the second best offensive player. The '87 Lakers were so talented that they could have won a title without Kareem. They obliterated the league, and with Magic just crushing Boston in the Finals (26 ppg, 8 rpg, 13 apg, .541 FG%, and a .960 FT%), they won an easy title, and once again, Magic won a deserved FMVP.

Kareem would just become a role player in the 87-88 season. And despite his awful post-season, even worse Finals, and perhaps the worst game seven by a GOAT candidate in NBA history, Magic again led the Lakers to their five title. And while Worthy won the FMVP, virtually everyone acknowledged that it was MAGIC who carried that team.


In Kareem's last season, at age 42, he was now a worthless shell. Still, with Magic, as always, leading the LA, the Lakers entered the Finals with an 11-0 record. However, they had lost Byron Scott (and his 20 ppg) to a season-ending injury in the last game of the WCF's, and then Magic went down in game two. Worthy, with absolutely no help from Kareem, did his best, but it was hopeless, the Lakers were swept by the Pistons, 4-0.

Kareem retired.

The Lakers then IMPROVED from a 57-25 record, to 63-19, and Magic won yet another MVP award. However, they were stunned by the Suns in the playoffs.

In the 90-91 season, Magic carried an rapidly declining, and injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24 record, and yet another Finals, but with a peak Jordan and Pippen, and going against the rag-tag remnants of "Showtime" the Lakers lost 4-1.

Magic suddenly retired before the 91-92 season, and the Lakers immediately plummeted back to the pre-Magic era, going 43-39. And in their 92-93 season, they collapsed to a 39-43 record.

CLEARLY, it had been MAGIC who had led those Laker teams of the 80's, and KAJ was hanging tightly to his coat-tails.

THAT was the REAL story...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nice thread. Yeah the man had the greatest number of points ever scored...but some people forget Kareem is ALSO #3 all time in rebounds and is retired as the all time STATISTICAL leader in blocked shots.. Dude is the standard by which all big men should be measured far as game and legacy is concerned. :applause:

[Legends66NBA7]

Nice thread. Yeah the man had the greatest number of points ever scored...but some people forget Kareem is ALSO #3 all time in rebounds and is retired as the all time STATISTICAL leader in blocked shots.. Dude is the standard by which all big men should be measured far as game and legacy is concerned. :applause:

I'd say legacy is Bill Russell.

[Dr.J4ever]

Great revelations about the GREATEST CENTER in NBA history without any doubt! There is no center who had the best combination of offensive skill and defensive prowess and rebounding and passing as KAJ. Add in the titles, FMVPS, and MVPs and you have the GOAT. Let us not forget the greatest single shot and most unstoppable in basketball history: the skyhook.

Really, there is no argument to be made any more. It's revisionist history to suggest early 80s Lakers were not KAJ's teams. It's laughable, especially if you lived through them. No amount of spin on this part of history can change the fact that Magic never won a title without KAJ. When Kaj retired, so did the Laker's title hopes. Simple and unassailable logic.

[Roundball_Rock]

Milwaukee ownership had grown tired of the moody Kareem, and shipped him off to LA before the start of the '76 season.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call revisionist history. Kareem wanted to leave for NY or LA (the cities he had spent his pre-NBA life) for cultural reasons. Kareem did not want to leave Milwaukee hanging--he liked how the city and team treated him--so he informed them a year prior to his contract expiring that he would be leaving. Why? So the Bucks would be able to trade him and get value for him--which they did. They got an all-star player, a 16/11/3 center who was fresh off leading the league in blocks, the #2 and #8 picks in the 1975 draft.


He signed a huge long term deal, and was clearly the leader of the Lakers.

Kareem was the captain for a reason...Moreover, if Magic was the "leader" why was the transition in 1987 a big deal? There should have been no need for a transition if Magic was already the top dog.


And from the 81-82 season on, Magic would outvote Kareem in the MVP balloting EVERY season.

Yeah, the popular Magic would finish narrowly ahead of Kareem, who was 34 by 1982, during the next few seasons:

1980: KAJ 1st, Magic 0 votes
1981: KAJ 3rd, Magic 11th
1982: Magic 8th, KAJ 10th
1983: Magic 3rd, KAJ 10th
1984: Magic 3rd, KAJ 4th
1985: Magic 2nd, KAJ 4th
1986: Magic 3rd, KAJ 5th

It was not until 1987, when Magic won his first MVP and for the first time Kareem did not receive MVP consideration, that a gap opened up between them. As you can see, Kareem was well ahead of Magic in 1980 and 1981 and was right on his bumper in every other year outside of 1983. This despite Kareem being 34-38 during this period. If Magic was clearly superior that should have been evident given their respective ages...


For those that argue that Magic never won a ring without Kareem, we had several examples to the contrary, including the '82 post-season.

:wtf: The fact is Magic never won without Kareem. Once Kareem stopped playing the winning also stopped...

A quick tangent, for those of you who don't know who Moses Malone is, he is top 15 all-time and had won consecutive MVP's by 1983, and 3 total, and was at the peak of his power. Kareem was 35 in 1983. This is like comparing Shaq and Hakeem in the 99' playoffs and holding that against Hakeem.

It is interesting how jlauber/Lazz takes shots at some subpar performances Kareem had, relative to his lofty standards. However, the same could be said about Magic:

In 1981 the Lakers failed to reach the Finals after Magic shot 39% from the field (down from 53% in the regular season) and 65% from the FT line (down from 76%) in the first round. Kareem posted 27/17/4/3/1. Magic famously ended this series with an airball.

In the 1983 Finals Magic shot only 40%, down from 55% in the regular season), the Lakers lost in 1984 after Magic pulled off an all-time chokejob in the Finals, earning the moniker "Tragic Johnson."

In 1990 the Lakers, in their first season without Kareem since the mid-70's, managed to post the best record in the league. However, they lost in the second round to the West's #5 seed.

In 1991 the Lakers made it back to the Finals--but were backdoor swept as Magic shot only 43%.

It should be noted that from 1980-1983 Norm Nixon mirrored Magic's scoring and assists:

Magic and Nixon in the early 80's

1980: Magic 18/8, Nixon 18/8
1981: Magic 22/9, Nixon 17/9
1982: Magic 19/9.5, Nixon 18/8
1983: Magic 17/10.5, Nixon 15/7

How important was Kareem by the late 80's? In 1987 he still posted 22 points in the Finals and 19.4 in the playoffs. Even in 1988 his playoff and Finals numbers resembled that of 2012-2014 Chris Bosh, so while he was no longer dominating he still was a legitimate contributor. Once those contributions stopped, so did the results. In 1989 Kareem was basically the Lakers' #2 center and they got crushed in the Finals, although Magic got hurt in Game 3.

[SHAQisGOAT]

This, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call revisionist history. Kareem wanted to leave for NY or LA (the cities he had spent his pre-NBA life) for cultural reasons. Kareem did not want to leave Milwaukee hanging--he liked how the city and team treated him--so he informed them a year prior to his contract expiring that he would be leaving. Why? So the Bucks would be able to trade him and get value for him--which they did. They got an all-star player, a 16/11/3 center who was fresh off leading the league in blocks, the #2 and #8 picks in the 1975 draft.



Kareem was the captain for a reason...Moreover, if Magic was the "leader" why was the transition in 1987 a big deal? There should have been no need for a transition if Magic was already the top dog.



Yeah, the popular Magic would finish narrowly ahead of Kareem, who was 34 by 1982, during the next few seasons:

1980: KAJ 1st, Magic 0 votes
1981: KAJ 3rd, Magic 11th
1982: Magic 8th, KAJ 10th
1983: Magic 3rd, KAJ 10th
1984: Magic 3rd, KAJ 4th
1985: Magic 2nd, KAJ 4th
1986: Magic 3rd, KAJ 5th

It was not until 1987, when Magic won his first MVP and for the first time Kareem did not receive MVP consideration, that a gap opened up between them. As you can see, Kareem was well ahead of Magic in 1980 and 1981 and was right on his bumper in every other year outside of 1983. This despite Kareem being 34-38 during this period. If Magic was clearly superior that should have been evident given their respective ages...



:wtf: The fact is Magic never won without Kareem. Once Kareem stopped playing the winning also stopped...

A quick tangent, for those of you who don't know who Moses Malone is, he is top 15 all-time and had won consecutive MVP's by 1983, and 3 total, and was at the peak of his power. Kareem was 35 in 1983. This is like comparing Shaq and Hakeem in the 99' playoffs and holding that against Hakeem.

It is interesting how jlauber/Lazz takes shots at some subpar performances Kareem had, relative to his lofty standards. However, the same could be said about Magic:

In 1981 the Lakers failed to reach the Finals after Magic shot 39% from the field (down from 53% in the regular season) and 65% from the FT line (down from 76%) in the first round. Kareem posted 27/17/4/3/1. Magic famously ended this series with an airball.

In the 1983 Finals Magic shot only 40%, down from 55% in the regular season), the Lakers lost in 1984 after Magic pulled off an all-time chokejob in the Finals, earning the moniker "Tragic Johnson."

In 1990 the Lakers, in their first season without Kareem since the mid-70's, managed to post the best record in the league. However, they lost in the second round to the West's #5 seed.

In 1991 the Lakers made it back to the Finals--but were backdoor swept as Magic shot only 43%.

It should be noted that from 1980-1983 Norm Nixon mirrored Magic's scoring and assists:

Magic and Nixon in the early 80's

1980: Magic 18/8, Nixon 18/8
1981: Magic 22/9, Nixon 17/9
1982: Magic 19/9.5, Nixon 18/8
1983: Magic 17/10.5, Nixon 15/7

How important was Kareem by the late 80's? In 1987 he still posted 22 points in the Finals and 19.4 in the playoffs. Even in 1988 his playoff and Finals numbers resembled that of 2012-2014 Chris Bosh, so while he was no longer dominating he still was a legitimate contributor. Once those contributions stopped, so did the results. In 1989 Kareem was basically the Lakers' #2 center and they got crushed in the Finals, although Magic got hurt in Game 3.

:applause: :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Here are some quick hits from what Sports Illustrated had to say at the time about the early 80's Lakers:


The Lakers won the game 123-107, and thus the NBA championship without the most dominant player in basketball.

That was a 1980 reference to KAJ. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1123461/index.htm


They stood there for a moment, gazing at each other as bodies wheeled around them through the lane. Moses Malone of the Philadelphia 76ers cradled the ball in his relatively tiny hands, and as he looked into the goggled eyes of the Los Angeles Lakers' Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, it was as if both centers knew that what was about to happen in the Inglewood Forum would somehow change the existing order.

That was from 1983. The implication is Moses, the 1982 and 1983 MVP, was surpassing the 36 year old Kareem.

From 1984:


There is also little doubt about which one of the two you would want to take the last shot for you in a close game. When the Lakers need a big basket, the ball almost always goes in to the 7'2" Abdul-Jabbar. In the same situation, the Celtics go to Bird.

This was a Magic vs. Bird article, though. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122153/3/index.htm

Also,

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1985/0617_large.jpg

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'd say legacy is Bill Russell.

For me, its difficult to split between Russell and Kareem for title of 'greatest big man'.

There have been better individual players than Russ (players w/ more individual skills), but as you said, his "legacy" is right there with other GOAT candidates.

The only way to judge your greatness is by measuring how you effected the final score and what you did to your team’s benefit (i.e. who is the best player to build a team around).

[PHILA]

I'd say legacy is Bill Russell.

There may not be an athlete in professional sports who equals Russell's legacy. Forget the intangibles, Bill Russell was among the most dominant players ever in every tangible category of basketball, the only exception being pure shooting. I get the idea that many fans have often minimized the word 'skill' to simply describe a player's shooting touch and little else. Even some fans past and present who referred to Jerry West as a great shooter, as if that was all he did.

Russell's post footwork, passing, pick setting, ball handling, and ability to run the floor are about on par with any big man who has ever played.

Example of Russell performing KAJ's wheeling move into the hook shot.


Russell - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L78v25cinYI&t=23m6s

KAJ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqCrm0r_w&t=1m51s



His rebounding and shot blocking are certainly the best. It is just that his shooting touch was not good at all. There is definitely too large an emphasis put on pure shooting, if it is being used against Russell.



Sports Illustrated - November 18, 1963 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075395/index.htm)

"In my modest opinion," says Russell, who is not a particularly good shooter, "shooting is of relatively little importance in a player's overall game. Almost all of us in the NBA are All-Americas. We became All-Americas by averaging 20 points or more a game, so by the layman's standards all of us can shoot. It's the other phases of the game that make the difference. If you're going to score 15 and let your man score 20 you're a deficit. If your value to the team is strictly as a shooter, you are of very little value. Offense is the first thing you learn as a kid in any sport: catch a pass, dribble, bat, shoot. You learn the offensive aspects of a game long before you learn there even are defensive aspects. These are the skills you come by naturally. Defense is hard work because it's unnatural.

"Defense is a science," Russell says, "not a helter-skelter thing you just luck into. Every move has six or seven years of work behind it. In basketball your body gets to do things it couldn't do in normal circumstances. You take abnormal steps, you have to run backward almost as fast as you can run forward. On defense you must never cross your legs while running, and that's the most natural thing to do when changing direction. Instead, you try to glide like a crab. You have to fight the natural tendencies and do things naturally that aren't natural.

"In rebounding, position is the key. No two objects can occupy the same place at the same time. Seventy-five percent of the rebounds are taken below the height of the rim, so timing is important, because almost everyone in the league can reach the top of the rim. A really important part of rebounding is being able to jump up more than once. You have to keep trying for that ball. Sometimes you jump four or five times before you can get your hands on it. I used to practice jumping over and over again. When I was 6 feet 2, I could jump to the top of the rim 35 times, over and over.

"You have to have strong hands. Most of the time three guys will have their hands on the ball at the same time, and you have to be able to grab it away. I guess I just naturally have strong hands, but if I didn't I would exercise until they were strong. But getting the ball is only half the job. Then you have to do something with it."

[Dr.J4ever]

Here are some quick hits from what Sports Illustrated had to say at the time about the early 80's Lakers:



That was a 1980 reference to KAJ. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1123461/index.htm



That was from 1983. The implication is Moses, the 1982 and 1983 MVP, was surpassing the 36 year old Kareem.

From 1984:



This was a Magic vs. Bird article, though. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122153/3/index.htm

Also,

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1985/0617_large.jpg
:bowdown: :applause:

B-b-but I thought KAJ was just riding Magic's "coattails" ? What I don't like about this whole thing is-- why do we have to disparage and revise history just to give more glory to Wilt? That's the whole negative thing here.

So Wilt now needs to destroy KAJ in order to build himself up? It is really a testament to Wilt's lack of GOAT credentials that we must now demolish Kaj's leadership status with those Laker teams just to prop Wilt up. Just look at that SI cover and weep, if you don't believe. I didn't have to see that SI cover. I already knew and remembered it exactly that way.

Wilt defenders should stop being insecure and let Wilt's record stand. That is--the single most dominant player in NBA history. Not the biggest winner, obviously. Wilt's legacy is complicated, and despite being so dominant, he has many detractors, even coming from players and seasoned observers from his time.

It is with weakness, rather than strength, that Wilt defenders are going by when they attack KAJ. Let's stop that nonsense.

[GimmeThat]

I think that big man takes longer to develope because of the key concept in inside out basketball.

inside out basketball is what really changes the spacing and flow of an offense.


I think Shaq got it in his 3rd year winning the championship.
And it really showed when he was able to win it with Wade.

Unfortunately later on people were expecting Shaq to be the young/dominant Shaq that he was earlier in his career as he became a journey man.

And maybe his ability to read defense and make proper adjustments on the offensive end became under valued.


I actually can't think of a big man who can play the inside out game as a 1st option without being absolutely skilled underneath the basket.

We are also discounting defensive Centers who are more of a passer at the post than truly having one on one post move that affects the spacing.

[jlip]

Weakest era in NBA history. Not to mention Kareem's defense was average(which might explain why his teams were so poor defensively)

:facepalm

From 1970-1974 the Bucks held their opponents to the lowest fg% in the entire league. Kareem anchored the defense.

[jlip]

Kareem GOAT Conversation 1974-1986 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282043)

[TheMan]

One title in the weakest era in NBA history that he supossedly dominated :confusedshrug:

Rode Magic and Big Game James coattails to more chips :confusedshrug:

I'll give him his props doe, still remember KAJ getting into the Lakers offense 10 seconds after the ball crossed half court in 88 :applause: Gotta recognize long career.

Top 5 for sure.:bowdown:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

One title in the weakest era in NBA history that he supossedly dominated :confusedshrug:

Rode Magic and Big Game James coattails to more chips :confusedshrug:

I'll give him his props doe, still remember KAJ getting into the Lakers offense 10 seconds after the ball crossed half court in 88 :applause: Gotta recognize long career.

Top 5 for sure.:bowdown:

No white text, forreal? :biggums:

[GimmeThat]

Sports Illustrated - November 18, 1963 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075395/index.htm)

"In my modest opinion," says Russell, who is not a particularly good shooter, "shooting is of relatively little importance in a player's overall game. Almost all of us in the NBA are All-Americas. We became All-Americas by averaging 20 points or more a game, so by the layman's standards all of us can shoot. It's the other phases of the game that make the difference. If you're going to score 15 and let your man score 20 you're a deficit. If your value to the team is strictly as a shooter, you are of very little value. Offense is the first thing you learn as a kid in any sport: catch a pass, dribble, bat, shoot. You learn the offensive aspects of a game long before you learn there even are defensive aspects. These are the skills you come by naturally. Defense is hard work because it's unnatural.

"Defense is a science," Russell says, "not a helter-skelter thing you just luck into. Every move has six or seven years of work behind it. In basketball your body gets to do things it couldn't do in normal circumstances. You take abnormal steps, you have to run backward almost as fast as you can run forward. On defense you must never cross your legs while running, and that's the most natural thing to do when changing direction. Instead, you try to glide like a crab. You have to fight the natural tendencies and do things naturally that aren't natural.

"In rebounding, position is the key. No two objects can occupy the same place at the same time. Seventy-five percent of the rebounds are taken below the height of the rim, so timing is important, because almost everyone in the league can reach the top of the rim. A really important part of rebounding is being able to jump up more than once. You have to keep trying for that ball. Sometimes you jump four or five times before you can get your hands on it. I used to practice jumping over and over again. When I was 6 feet 2, I could jump to the top of the rim 35 times, over and over.

"You have to have strong hands. Most of the time three guys will have their hands on the ball at the same time, and you have to be able to grab it away. I guess I just naturally have strong hands, but if I didn't I would exercise until they were strong. But getting the ball is only half the job. Then you have to do something with it."


Mike D'Antoni's offense is to essentially break the science of defense apart. Especially that of team defense. By disrupting the opposing teams offense.

His motto would be "you can give up your offense to play defense against me, or you can try and play offense with me and just be sure that you grab those rebounds on the defensive end"

Who do you think grabbed those rebounds regardless of who they played throughout his NBA career?

[MiseryCityTexas]

Arguable GOAT :applause:


I would always make Rockets fans mad when I would say that 70s Kareem in his 20s would destroy 93-94/94-95 era Olajuwon. Numbers don't lie.

[knicksman]

yeah magic cant win w/o kareem same with kareem not winning w/o robertson/magic. LOL these idiots. Kareem was overrated. 5 MVPs for just a ring. LOL luckily magic came to save his ass. He couldve ended the most overrated player in history along with wilt who has 4 mvps for just 1 ring as the man.

[kureyşi-gospurs]

My only qualm with Kareem being GOAT is that he wasn't even the best on his team in the Showtime era. More worrying and disturbing is the fact that he basically stopped rebounding well in his 30's and still made All Star teams. I just need somebody to explain his massive rebounding dip for me to consider him goat.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Here are some quick hits from what Sports Illustrated had to say at the time about the early 80's Lakers:



That was a 1980 reference to KAJ. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1123461/index.htm



That was from 1983. The implication is Moses, the 1982 and 1983 MVP, was surpassing the 36 year old Kareem.

From 1984:



This was a Magic vs. Bird article, though. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122153/3/index.htm

Also,

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1985/0617_large.jpg


Great revelations about the GREATEST CENTER in NBA history without any doubt! There is no center who had the best combination of offensive skill and defensive prowess and rebounding and passing as KAJ. Add in the titles, FMVPS, and MVPs and you have the GOAT. Let us not forget the greatest single shot and most unstoppable in basketball history: the skyhook.

Really, there is no argument to be made any more. It's revisionist history to suggest early 80s Lakers were not KAJ's teams. It's laughable, especially if you lived through them. No amount of spin on this part of history can change the fact that Magic never won a title without KAJ. When Kaj retired, so did the Laker's title hopes. Simple and unassailable logic.


:applause: :applause:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Kareem GOAT Conversation 1974-1986 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282043)


:bowdown: :applause:

B-b-but I thought KAJ was just riding Magic's "coattails" ? What I don't like about this whole thing is-- why do we have to disparage and revise history just to give more glory to Wilt? That's the whole negative thing here.

So Wilt now needs to destroy KAJ in order to build himself up? It is really a testament to Wilt's lack of GOAT credentials that we must now demolish Kaj's leadership status with those Laker teams just to prop Wilt up. Just look at that SI cover and weep, if you don't believe. I didn't have to see that SI cover. I already knew and remembered it exactly that way.

Wilt defenders should stop being insecure and let Wilt's record stand. That is--the single most dominant player in NBA history. Not the biggest winner, obviously. Wilt's legacy is complicated, and despite being so dominant, he has many detractors, even coming from players and seasoned observers from his time.

It is with weakness, rather than strength, that Wilt defenders are going by when they attack KAJ. Let's stop that nonsense.

Again :applause: :applause:

[MiseryCityTexas]

yeah magic cant win w/o kareem same with kareem not winning w/o robertson/magic. LOL these idiots. Kareem was overrated. 5 MVPs for just a ring. LOL luckily magic came to save his ass. He couldve ended the most overrated player in history along with wilt who has 4 mvps for just 1 ring as the man.


Number 1 all time NBA scorer makes your paragraph irrelevant as shit. Kareem had no help in the 70s outside of Adrian Dantley, Norm Nixon, Jamal Wilkes and role players.

[BoutPractice]

The argument for Kareem as GOAT is an argument for looking at accumulated success (greatness defined by achievements) instead of success weighed with failure. You're only looking at the positives, and adding them all up, instead of searching for "perfection". I increasingly think it's a fair argument.

All the greats have had their fair share of failures, losses, moments where they did not play up to their own standards... but these were often proportional to their achievements. In any case, you're probably going to end up with fairer, more representative rankings if you count achievements first. With "equal" achievements, success-failure ratio could be a "tie breaker" of sorts, but nothing more... besides achievements are in actual fact unequal and very difficult to compare, so we've got our hands full with that already.

[dunksby]

Thanks for this thread, too many ESPN educated people on ISH discrediting Kareem to prop up their idols.

[IMObjective]

Thanks for all the info on Kareem on this thread and the other one, roundball rock. You make some great points. Kareem = GOAT, we'll let the casual world keep thinking that Jordan holds that title.

[LAZERUSS]

:bowdown: :applause:

B-b-but I thought KAJ was just riding Magic's "coattails" ? What I don't like about this whole thing is-- why do we have to disparage and revise history just to give more glory to Wilt? That's the whole negative thing here.

So Wilt now needs to destroy KAJ in order to build himself up? It is really a testament to Wilt's lack of GOAT credentials that we must now demolish Kaj's leadership status with those Laker teams just to prop Wilt up. Just look at that SI cover and weep, if you don't believe. I didn't have to see that SI cover. I already knew and remembered it exactly that way.

Wilt defenders should stop being insecure and let Wilt's record stand. That is--the single most dominant player in NBA history. Not the biggest winner, obviously. Wilt's legacy is complicated, and despite being so dominant, he has many detractors, even coming from players and seasoned observers from his time.

It is with weakness, rather than strength, that Wilt defenders are going by when they attack KAJ. Let's stop that nonsense.

That cover was in KAJ's 1985 FMVP run. A well-deserved FMVP.

BUT, Magic LED the Lakers to a title in '80. And a well-deserved FMVP.

BTW, here were Doug Collins comments following MAGIC's dominating game six of the '80 Finals...


Doug Collins, the 76ers' former All-Pro guard, who missed the playoffs with a knee injury, couldn't get over Magic. "I knew he was good but I never realized he was great," said Collins. "You don't realize it because he gives up so much of himself for Kareem."


How about the 1982 Finals? MAGIC wins a well-deserved FMVP. Kareem? Hell, a part-time Bob McAdoo, off the bench, nearly equaled Kareem's production in that Finals. NO ONE claimed Kareem was leading that team BTW.


As for this "Cap" nonsense...if anything it was to motivate a man who was NEVER a leader.


The fact is Magic never won without Kareem. Once Kareem stopped playing the winning also stopped

Magic not winning a title without Kareem? I beg to differ. In the '80 Finals, in the clinching game six win, on the road, and without the team's SECOND best player, he absolutely dominated the game. BTW, Magic never lost a playoff game that Kareem missed when the two were playing together, while KAJ never won a game in Magic's absence.

Again, in '82, Magic LED the Lakers to a title, and as we KNOW, a part-time McAdoo was just as productive as a full-time KAJ. A full-time McAdoo would have been enough.

'87? Sorry, but that Laker team could EASILY have given KAJ's mpg to the combined duo of Thompson and Green, and won an NBA title.

'88? This is truly laughable. One thing is for certain, though, ...when Magic had a poor series, the Lakers had no chance. When KAJ played poorly, well, just look at '88. Arguably the WORST playoff perfromance, the WORST Finals performance, and no doubt the WORST game seven performance by a GOAT candidate in NBA history. The Lakers could have replaced Kareem with Betty White and been better off.



Yeah, the popular Magic would finish narrowly ahead of Kareem, who was 34 by 1982, during the next few seasons:

1980: KAJ 1st, Magic 0 votes
1981: KAJ 3rd, Magic 11th
1982: Magic 8th, KAJ 10th
1983: Magic 3rd, KAJ 10th
1984: Magic 3rd, KAJ 4th
1985: Magic 2nd, KAJ 4th
1986: Magic 3rd, KAJ 5th

'80. Kareem.

'81. Kareem finished ahead of Magic, BUT, Magic missed 45 games.

'82 on. MAGIC EVERY single season.

'82. Magic was 8th and Kareem was 10th, BUT, Magic had just come off of a season in which he was blamed for the Lakers firing their head coach. And he still had twice as many points as Kareem BTW. And was CLEARLY LA's MVP in the '82 post-season and Finals.

'83. Magic 3rd with 304 points. Kareem 10th with 15.

'84. Magic 3rd with 305 points. Kareem 4th with 153. Not really close was it?

'85. Magic 2nd. Kareem 4th. Again, not really that close.

'86. Magic 3rd. Kareem 5th. Not close.

And after that, Magic FINALLY starting receiving his due, and just blew EVERYONE away.



That was from 1983. The implication is Moses, the 1982 and 1983 MVP, was surpassing the 36 year old Kareem.

Moses was "finally passed the torch in '83"? You have got to be kidding. Moses won an MVP in '79, and then again in '82 and '83.
Kareem won his last MVP in '80 (thank you very much Magic BTW.)

And how about this. From that '79 season on Moses would average more ppg and rpg, EACH season, until Kareem retired. 11 STRAIGHT seasons. And while I am a big fan of FG% efficiency, Moses was one of the exceptions to that rule, since if he missed a shot, there was a good chance he would get it back himself. Hell, in their '83 Finals H2H's, Moses had more OR's than Kareem had total rebounds.

And speaking of H2H's...Moses just CRUSHED Kareem. EVERY season from '79 on, in scoring and rebounding.

In their '78-79 H2H's, Moses outscored Kareem, per game, 31.0 ppg to 30.7 ppg, and outrebounded him, per game, 23.0 to 11.3 (!)

In their 79-80 H2H's, Moses outscored Kareem, per game, 30.5 ppg to 19.5 ppg, and outrebounded him, per game, 16.0 rpg to 11.5 rpg.

In their 80-81 regular season H2H's, Moses averaged 26.8 ppg to KAJ's 23.2 ppg, and 16.8 rpg to KAJ's 9.4. In their three playoff H2H's, Moses outscored KAJ, per game, 31.3 ppg to 26.7 ppg, and outrebounded him, per game, 17.7 rpg to 16.7 rpg. Oh, and KAJ shot .462 in that post-season series, as well, in a post-season NBA that had an eFG% of .473.

In their 81-82 H2H's, Moses just brutalized Kareem. In their five H2H's, Moses outscored Kareem, per game, 34.4 ppg to 21.8 ppg, and outrebounded the helpless Kareem by a 15.8 rpg to 6.2 rpg margin

The "torch" had been passed LONG BEFORE in '83 my friend. It had been passed back in 78-79. Moses was the most feared player in the league from '79 thru '83. And he was certainly more feared than Kareem after '83, as well.

BTW, in their 82-83 regular season H2H, Moses outscored Kareem, 29-15, and outrebounded him, by, get this... a 14-2 margin. Again, that "torch had been passed" LONG ago.

And in the '83 Finals...well, just a huge one-sided beatdown. Moses outscored KAJ, 25.8 ppg to 23.5 ppg, and outrebounded him... 18.0 rpg to 7.5 rpg.


The fact is Magic never won without Kareem. Once Kareem stopped playing the winning also stopped

Magic and Kareem in their 10 seasons in the league together: When Magic missed a game, LA won 60.3% of their games without him. When Kareem missed a game, LA won 75.0% of their games without him. Hell, AFTER Kareem retired, Magic had a 74.3% winning percentage. BEFORE Magic arrived, Kareem had a 65.6 winning percentage.


Kareem in the '70's?

Basically TWO Finals, and ONE ring (and the easiest run to a title in NBA history.)

FIVE Conference Finals...and went 2-3 in them (and swept by a 49-33 team in one of those.)

THREE other playoff series, one a 4-1 blowout loss to a 50-32 Sonics team with one borderline HOF player; another a first round loss to a 47-35 Sonics team with one borderline HOF player; and then yet another first round loss, when he he shot-jacked his 60-22 team right down in flames against a 47-35 team.

And TWO seasons in which his team's didn't even make the playoffs.

Oh, and TWO scoring titles, ONE rpg title, and ONE FG% title. And those would be his only scoring, rebounding, and FG% titles in his 20 seasons.

And Kareem's Lakers BEFORE Magic? Either didn't make the playoffs, were swept by a lower seed in the WCF's, or were early round cannon-fodder.

With MAGIC and Coat-Tails Kareem...EIGHT Finals, and FIVE rings.


The fact is Magic never won without Kareem. Once Kareem stopped playing the winning also stopped

WithOUT Kareem? Records of 63-19 (and a BETTER record than in KAJ's last season), as well as Magic taking an over-the-hill and injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24, and yet another Finals.

WithOUT MAGIC. Back-to-back seasons of 43-39 and 39-43...or about the level that Kareem had them playing at BEFORE MAGIC.

Kareem has NO CASE as the GOAT. NONE.

[knicksman]

Number 1 all time NBA scorer makes your paragraph irrelevant as shit. Kareem had no help in the 70s outside of Adrian Dantley, Norm Nixon, Jamal Wilkes and role players.


LOL ppg is more important than all time. It just exposes your low ass IQ

[LAZERUSS]

Number 1 all time NBA scorer makes your paragraph irrelevant as shit. Kareem had no help in the 70s outside of Adrian Dantley, Norm Nixon, Jamal Wilkes and role players.

From '72 thru '74, (and with Oscar), the Bucks went 8-0 in games Kareem missed.

[Mr Feeny]

Really thorough research by Lazer. Good stuff:applause:

[KOBE143]

:applause:

2nd best ever behind Kobe

[LAZERUSS]

:applause:

2nd best ever behind Kobe

He wasn't GOAT, but he was LIGHT YEARS better than Kobe.

[KOBE143]

He wasn't GOAT, but he was LIGHT YEARS better than Kobe.
Kobe >>> Wilt the Choker umad?

[LAZERUSS]

This was how Kareem was perceived in the 70's...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2A194yTWoQ

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe >>> Wilt the Choker umad?

:roll: :roll: :roll:


99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of Series .389 FG%

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514 FG%
Last Game of Series .438 FG%

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438 FG%
Finals 22.6 ppg .381 FG%
Last Game of Series .333 FG%

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459 FG%
Finals 25.7 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .318 FG%

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467 FG%
Finals 32.4 ppg .430 FG%
Last Game of Series .435 FG%

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456 FG%
Finals 28.6 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .250 FG%


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.


Next ...

[Mr Feeny]

And into the bodybag goes Kobe143:roll:

[GimmeThat]

Magic could coach the game, but like many have stated, he wouldn't have won without Kareem.

His ability to coach the game could probably buy himself a few game the same way Kobe was valued as an essentric scorer.


I find it extremely odd for Magic Johnson's distaste in Mike D'Antoni, because the reality is that D'Antoni could ran what was similar to a show time offense with a lesser squad (Suns) without playing the game himself.

Maybe it threatened his ego that he felt that in order for the "show time" offense to work, it required elite players with elite basketball IQ. And that D'Antoni was undermining his offense by what he considered to be "poor basketball IQ player" jacking up shots.



How many coaches are ever truly remembered. I sure hope some people will remember Pop somewhere down the road. Because I know Tim Duncan will be mentioned much more frequently than Pop ever will.

[KOBE143]

:roll: :roll: :roll:



Next ...
5 >>> 2 umad again?

Next...

[LeBird]

Roundball_Rock, your posts have made me reconsider my ranking for the best Cs. Used to be Wilt as the #1; now gotta be Kareem. :cheers:

[La Frescobaldi]

There may not be an athlete in professional sports who equals Russell's legacy. Forget the intangibles, Bill Russell was among the most dominant players ever in every tangible category of basketball, the only exception being pure shooting. I get the idea that many fans have often minimized the word 'skill' to simply describe a player's shooting touch and little else. Even some fans past and present who referred to Jerry West as a great shooter, as if that was all he did.

Russell's post footwork, passing, pick setting, ball handling, and ability to run the floor are about on par with any big man who has ever played.

Example of Russell performing KAJ's wheeling move into the hook shot.


Russell - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L78v25cinYI&t=23m6s

KAJ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqCrm0r_w&t=1m51s



His rebounding and shot blocking are certainly the best. It is just that his shooting touch was not good at all. There is definitely too large an emphasis put on pure shooting, if it is being used against Russell.



Sports Illustrated - November 18, 1963 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075395/index.htm)

"In my modest opinion," says Russell, who is not a particularly good shooter, "shooting is of relatively little importance in a player's overall game. Almost all of us in the NBA are All-Americas. We became All-Americas by averaging 20 points or more a game, so by the layman's standards all of us can shoot. It's the other phases of the game that make the difference. If you're going to score 15 and let your man score 20 you're a deficit. If your value to the team is strictly as a shooter, you are of very little value. Offense is the first thing you learn as a kid in any sport: catch a pass, dribble, bat, shoot. You learn the offensive aspects of a game long before you learn there even are defensive aspects. These are the skills you come by naturally. Defense is hard work because it's unnatural.

"Defense is a science," Russell says, "not a helter-skelter thing you just luck into. Every move has six or seven years of work behind it. In basketball your body gets to do things it couldn't do in normal circumstances. You take abnormal steps, you have to run backward almost as fast as you can run forward. On defense you must never cross your legs while running, and that's the most natural thing to do when changing direction. Instead, you try to glide like a crab. You have to fight the natural tendencies and do things naturally that aren't natural.

"In rebounding, position is the key. No two objects can occupy the same place at the same time. Seventy-five percent of the rebounds are taken below the height of the rim, so timing is important, because almost everyone in the league can reach the top of the rim. A really important part of rebounding is being able to jump up more than once. You have to keep trying for that ball. Sometimes you jump four or five times before you can get your hands on it. I used to practice jumping over and over again. When I was 6 feet 2, I could jump to the top of the rim 35 times, over and over.

"You have to have strong hands. Most of the time three guys will have their hands on the ball at the same time, and you have to be able to grab it away. I guess I just naturally have strong hands, but if I didn't I would exercise until they were strong. But getting the ball is only half the job. Then you have to do something with it."

thx Phila this is exactly what I was looking for to make a point in another thread about Kawhi Leonard.

[LAZERUSS]

Roundball_Rock, your posts have made me reconsider my ranking for the best Cs. Used to be Wilt as the #1; now gotta be Kareem. :cheers:

Where do you rank Moses "the Kareem Killer" Malone, then?

[Psileas]

thx Phila this is exactly what I was looking for to make a point in another thread about Kawhi Leonard.

That post was a good remainder. Russell had the mind of a strategist, he'd make a good defense minister if he cared to!
And Phila is right, even without defense, leadership and other non-appearing in boxscores features, Russell has still among the best stats ever. It's the unavailability of blocks/steals what prohibits us from enjoying them at full force (and fans' dependency on scoring or the stupid PER stat that shits on players who aren't big time scorers). Dude would easily have as many triple-doubles as Magic, maybe even more.

[Helix]

That post was a good remainder. Russell had the mind of a strategist, he'd make a good defense minister if he cared to!
And Phila is right, even without defense, leadership and other non-appearing in boxscores features, Russell has still among the best stats ever. It's the unavailability of blocks/steals what prohibits us from enjoying them at full force (and fans' dependency on scoring or the stupid PER stat that shits on players who aren't big time scorers). Dude would easily have as many triple-doubles as Magic, maybe even more.


Yea, it really is a shame they didn't keep blocks and steals back then. I agree that Russ would have had as many if not more triple doubles than Magic. But imagine Wilt..........I have no doubt Wilt would be the all time leader in triple doubles, and I don't doubt his number of quad doubles would easily be into double figures.

[Helix]

Concerning the title of this thread......"The truth about Kareem in the 1970's"......sorry, not quite. The REAL truth is a combination of what dankok posted and what Laz has posted. Plain and simple.

[La Frescobaldi]

Roundball_Rock, your posts have made me reconsider my ranking for the best Cs. Used to be Wilt as the #1; now gotta be Kareem. :cheers:
I struggled with that same fact when Jordan showed up.

That's why I still to this day have those three, and only those three, in their own tiny circle of elite players.

[Pointguard]

Kareem was the captain for a reason...Moreover, if Magic was the "leader" why was the transition in 1987 a big deal? There should have been no need for a transition if Magic was already the top dog.

If you watched the Lakers and didn't know who was the decision maker, the guy who united the team, the guy who kept everybody on the same page, the guy who featured players when they got hot or were valuable to the what the team had to accomplish during the series, the emotional and spiritual leader - you will never know basketball.

Kareem turned on Magic when Magic got the franchise contract and threatened to leave the team. <-- leadership at its best. And Kareem who was on a serious drought of playing inspired winning ball for a long time before Magic came along was never even a great teammate to Magic much less the other players. The talk in '87 was how management was no longer interested in placating Kareem.



Yeah, the popular Magic would finish narrowly ahead of Kareem, who was 34 by 1982, during the next few seasons:

1980: KAJ 1st, Magic 0 votes
1981: KAJ 3rd, Magic 11th
1982: Magic 8th, KAJ 10th
1983: Magic 3rd, KAJ 10th
1984: Magic 3rd, KAJ 4th
1985: Magic 2nd, KAJ 4th
1986: Magic 3rd, KAJ 5th

It was not until 1987, when Magic won his first MVP and for the first time Kareem did not receive MVP consideration, that a gap opened up between them. As you can see, Kareem was well ahead of Magic in 1980 and 1981 and was right on his bumper in every other year outside of 1983. This despite Kareem being 34-38 during this period. If Magic was clearly superior that should have been evident given their respective ages...

Kareem was featured in the LA half court. Who featured him? Who could featured him? The same guy that could feature Kurt Rambis. Magic was better at that than any player before or since. Kareem was talking retirement in '78. Magic incorporated a spirited Kareem into a winning style which is not something you magically get at 34 years old.



:wtf: The fact is Magic never won without Kareem. Once Kareem stopped playing the winning also stopped...

Kareem was not a top three player on their team in their only repeat performance championships. Kareem was definitely in Worthy and Magics way on the "88 team. And Magic still made it to the finals in spite of Kareem in '89. And made it again to the finals without Kareem one more time, both Worthy and Scott were injured in that one. In fact! Its actually a reversal of what you said: the teams winning percentage was definitely at its best once Kareem was out of the way and stepped down in '1987. Kareem in his 20 years was never part of a team that won like the Lakers did, the next five years, once he stepped out of the way. Not in the regular season, not in the playoffs. And Kareem played through league expansion and a league rival that greatly siphoned talent.



In 1981 the Lakers failed to reach the Finals after Magic shot 39% from the field (down from 53% in the regular season) and 65% from the FT line (down from 76%) in the first round. Kareem posted 27/17/4/3/1. Magic famously ended this series with an airball.

In the 1983 Finals Magic shot only 40%, down from 55% in the regular season), the Lakers lost in 1984 after Magic pulled off an all-time chokejob in the Finals, earning the moniker "Tragic Johnson."

In 1990 the Lakers, in their first season without Kareem since the mid-70's, managed to post the best record in the league. However, they lost in the second round to the West's #5 seed.

In 1991 the Lakers made it back to the Finals--but were backdoor swept as Magic shot only 43%.
In '91 Magic was left on an island by himself as Worthy and Scott were injured. When Magic played bad the Laker's lost. When Kareem or Bird played bad the team could still win. Magic having three bad playoffs series is waaaaay better than the many excuses for other players in this thread.


It should be noted that from 1980-1983 Norm Nixon mirrored Magic's scoring and assists:

Magic and Nixon in the early 80's

1980: Magic 18/8, Nixon 18/8
1981: Magic 22/9, Nixon 17/9
1982: Magic 19/9.5, Nixon 18/8
1983: Magic 17/10.5, Nixon 15/7

How important was Kareem by the late 80's? In 1987 he still posted 22 points in the Finals and 19.4 in the playoffs. Even in 1988 his playoff and Finals numbers resembled that of 2012-2014 Chris Bosh, so while he was no longer dominating he still was a legitimate contributor. Once those contributions stopped, so did the results. In 1989 Kareem was basically the Lakers' #2 center and they got crushed in the Finals, although Magic got hurt in Game 3.
There is no mirror that is going to make Nixon look like Magic. Kareem in the late 80's was a by product of Magic featuring him. He would have very likely retired in '85 latest if he wasn't on Magic's team. He was very spoiled.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic and Nixon in the early 80's

1980: Magic 18/8, Nixon 18/8
1981: Magic 22/9, Nixon 17/9
1982: Magic 19/9.5, Nixon 18/8
1983: Magic 17/10.5, Nixon 15/7



Is this a JOKE?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

'80 Magic: 8 rpg, .530 FG%
'80 Nixon: 3 rpg, .516 FG%

'81 Magic: 9 rpg, .532 FG%
'81 Nixon: 3 rpg, .476 FG%

'82 Magic: 10 rpg, .537 FG%
'82 Nixon: 2 rpg, .493 FG%

'83 Magic: 9 rpg, .548 FG%
'83 Nixon: 3 rpg, .475 FG%

The Lakers replaced Nixon with Byron Scott, and got BETTER.

Next...

[LAZERUSS]

If you watched the Lakers and didn't know who was the decision maker, the guy who united the team, the guy who kept everybody on the same page, the guy who featured players when they got hot or were valuable to the what the team had to accomplish during the series, the emotional and spiritual leader - you will never know basketball.

Kareem turned on Magic when Magic got the franchise contract and threatened to leave the team. <-- leadership at its best. And Kareem who was on a serious drought of playing inspired winning ball for a long time before Magic came along was never even a great teammate to Magic much less the other players. The talk in '87 was how management was no longer interested in placating Kareem.



Kareem was featured in the LA half court. Who featured him? Who could featured him? The same guy that could feature Kurt Rambis. Magic was better at that than any player before or since. Kareem was talking retirement in '78. Magic incorporated a spirited Kareem into a winning style which is not something you magically get at 34 years old.


Kareem was not a top three player on their team in their only repeat performance championships. Kareem was definitely in Worthy and Magics way on the "88 team. And Magic still made it to the finals in spite of Kareem in '89. And made it again to the finals without Kareem one more time, both Worthy and Scott were injured in that one. In fact! Its actually a reversal of what you said: the teams winning percentage was definitely at its best once Kareem was out of the way and stepped down in '1987. Kareem in his 20 years was never part of a team that won like the Lakers did, the next five years, once he stepped out of the way. Not in the regular season, not in the playoffs. And Kareem played through league expansion and a league rival that greatly siphoned talent.


In '91 Magic was left on an island by himself as Worthy and Scott were injured. When Magic played bad the Laker's lost. When Kareem or Bird played bad the team could still win. Magic having three bad playoffs series is waaaaay better than the many excuses for other players in this thread.

There is no mirror that is going to make Nixon look like Magic. Kareem in the late 80's was a by product of Magic featuring him. He would have very likely retired in '85 latest if he wasn't on Magic's team. He was very spoiled.

Excellent post!

BTW, here is something interesting...

KAJ played with Oscar from 70-71 thru 73-74, and of course, Magic from '79-80 thru '88-89...

KAJ, without Oscar, went 26-10 ... an excellent .722
KAJ without Magic, went 61-40... a very good .604

Oscar without KAJ... went 8-0... well 1.000 speaks for itself
Magic without KAJ... went 24-8... .an eye-popping .750.


The KAJ fans love to point out the Bucks 3-14 record without KAJ in '73-74 (and 35-30 with KAJ)...but the reality was...they had lost their true leader to retirement after that 73-74 season. Granted, I didn't say BETTER player, but their LEADER.

And the Magic record is all the more impressive when you factor in his W-L percentage AFTER Kareem...

His 89-90 Lakers went 62-17 with Magic...and 1-2 without Magic.
His 90-91 Lakers went 57-22 with Magic...and 1-2 without Magic.

In those two seasons, Magic (again...AFTER KAJ) went 119-39, or .753!

Oh, and then after Magic retired... 43-39 and 39-43.

BTW, an old, out of shape, Magic, who hadn't played for four years, and over weight, and fighting a deadly illness, came back in the 95-96 season, and his W-L record was 22-10, or .688...and without Magic...31-19, or .620.

Overall, and AFTER Kareem... 141-49...for a .742 winning percentage!

[dankok8]

Magic has always been my favorite player of all time but after some of the biased fools in these threads I've begun to hate him! :oldlol:

I've spent half of my times on this board defending Kareem and Bird. SMH!!

Moses was only better than Kareem in '82, '83, and from '88 onwards. Just because he had better stats in their H2H games and outplayed him in some of them doesn't make him a better player. Both players only played 3-6 games vs. each other every season... what about the other 80-90 games? Who was better against all their other oppoents?

[LAZERUSS]

Magic has always been my favorite player of all time but after some of the biased fools in these threads I've begun to hate him! :oldlol:

I've spent half of my times on this board defending Kareem and Bird. SMH!!

Moses was only better than Kareem in '82, '83, and from '88 onwards. Just because he had better stats in their H2H games and outplayed him in some of them doesn't make him a better player. Both players only played 3-6 games vs. each other every season... what about the other 80-90 games? Who was better against all their other oppoents?

Let's get real here...

you have been a closet Magic-hater since day one on this board.

And no, Kareem was NOT better than Moses in JUST '82, '83 and '88. Moses was the better, more dominant player from '78-79 thru '88-89, or 11 straight seasons. Better in terms of statistical impact, and clearly better H2H.

Don't forget that Moses only had TWO quality seasons with teams that were very good. '83 and '84. After that the rest of the Sixers were done. He didn't win a ring in '84, but neither did KAJ.

And before '83, he was taking rosters that were FAR worse than what KAJ had in the last half of the decade of the 70's, single-handedly as far as they got. Which, of course, included '81, when he steamrolled KAJ and his heavily-favored Lakers with his putrid 40-42 team in the first round.

Kareem was more talented, more physically skilled, taller, more athletic (at least to around '85), perhaps heavier, and perhaps even stronger.

BUT, Moses had ONE HUGE advantage over KAJ...he was RELENTLESS. KAJ often "raised the white flag" throughout his career. Moses simply never gave up, and just plain OUTWORKED....EVERYONE, especially from '78-79 thru '82-83...when he dominated the NBA like Wilt did for the entire decade of the 60's.

[dankok8]

Let's get real here...

you have been a closet Magic-hater since day one on this board.

And no, Kareem was NOT better than Moses in JUST '82, '83 and '88. Moses was the better, more dominant player from '78-79 thru '88-89, or 11 straight seasons. Better in terms of statistical impact, and clearly better H2H.

Don't forget that Moses only had TWO quality seasons with teams that were very good. '83 and '84. After that the rest of the Sixers were done. He didn't win a ring in '84, but neither did KAJ.

And before '83, he was taking rosters that were FAR worse than what KAJ had in the last half of the decade of the 70's, single-handedly as far as they got. Which, of course, included '81, when he steamrolled KAJ and his heavily-favored Lakers with his putrid 40-42 team in the first round.

Kareem was more talented, more physically skilled, taller, more athletic (at least to around '85), perhaps heavier, and perhaps even stronger.

BUT, Moses had ONE HUGE advantage over KAJ...he was RELENTLESS. KAJ often "raised the white flag" throughout his career. Moses simply never gave up, and just plain OUTWORKED....EVERYONE, especially from '78-79 thru '82-83...when he dominated the NBA like Wilt did for the entire decade of the 60's.

:rolleyes:

Believe what you want. Most people would agree that while you have a lot of knowledge you're one of the most biased posters on here as well. I refuse to attack other players and I always try to post everything. I've been on record saying that Kareem played just terrible in '73 and subpar in '78.

Even looking at the 80's Kareem was better than Moses in everything apart from rebounding. Look at their playoff averages year to year until 1987 and tell me what you find.

[LAZERUSS]

:rolleyes:

Believe what you want. Most people would agree that while you have a lot of knowledge you're one of the most biased posters on here as well. I refuse to attack other players and I always try to post everything. I've been on record saying that Kareem played just terrible in '73 and subpar in '78.

Even looking at the 80's Kareem was better than Moses in everything apart from rebounding. Look at their playoff averages year to year until 1987 and tell me what you find.

No matter how much we disagree, I really respect your opinions. And you are one of the few posters here worth have any discussions with.

[Psileas]

Yea, it really is a shame they didn't keep blocks and steals back then. I agree that Russ would have had as many if not more triple doubles than Magic. But imagine Wilt..........I have no doubt Wilt would be the all time leader in triple doubles, and I don't doubt his number of quad doubles would easily be into double figures.

Αgreed. It's just that Wilt doesn't need "much" help (:oldlol:) to make his stats look good that made me omit him.

[Pointguard]

Magic has always been my favorite player of all time but after some of the biased fools in these threads I've begun to hate him! :oldlol:


If you have to lie, to call other people fools, its a bad reflection on yourself. You are definitely in the wrong place if you can't handle criticism not going your way in terms of players. In fact the internet is not made for you. If biased fools have flipped you... well then... .

[Roundball_Rock]

First, is anyone else amused by the irony of a Wilt fan attacking KAJ as a choker and loser? :roll: :roll:


BUT, Magic LED the Lakers to a title in '80.

Kareem was the league MVP--referred to as the most dominant force in basketball by SI; Magic did not receive a single MVP vote that year. Magic did not make an all-NBA team in 1980 and in fact would not make the all-NBA first team until 1983.


"You don't realize it because he gives up so much of himself for Kareem."

Which provides further evidence that Kareem was the top player on the team. While having two elite players playing together generally hurts the stats of both, it is the #2 player who cedes much more in terms of stats to the top player (see Wade as a prime current example).


Magic not winning a title without Kareem? I beg to differ.

There is nothing to differ on. That Magic never win a ring without Kareem is a factual statement.


'87? Sorry, but that Laker team could EASILY have given KAJ's mpg to the combined duo of Thompson and Green, and won an NBA title.

That is speculation. KAJ was still a 18 ppg scorer in the regular season and a 22 ppg scorer in the Finals. Such players do not grow on trees. Indeed, Green's career high was 14.7 and his career average was in the single digits. Thompson posted 10/7 without Kareem in 1990 as the starter.


Arguably the WORST playoff perfromance, the WORST Finals performance, and no doubt the WORST game seven performance by a GOAT candidate in NBA history.

Wow. Kareem was 41 at the time! Where were the other GOAT candidates at that age? Wilt retired at 36; Kareem was all-NBA first team as late as age 38.


'81. Kareem finished ahead of Magic, BUT, Magic missed 45 games.

And promptly choked in the playoffs and subsequently got the coach, who had won a title just the previous year, fired early in 1982.


Moses was "finally passed the torch in '83"? You have got to be kidding.

I did not right that article...


When Kareem missed a game

Kareem never missed an extended stretch. His lowest total from 1980-1988 was 76 games in 82' followed by 79 a couple of times. Let me guess, your statistic relies on the 8 games he missed in 1989?


Hell, AFTER Kareem retired, Magic had a 74.3% winning percentage

Magic without Kareem in the playoffs: lost in the WCFS with the #1 seed, lost in the Finals, lost in the first round.



If you watched the Lakers and didn't know who was the decision maker, the guy who united the team, the guy who kept everybody on the same page, the guy who featured players when they got hot or were valuable to the what the team had to accomplish during the series, the emotional and spiritual leader

All true--but using that logic then Scottie Pippen was the leader of the 90's Bulls.


Kareem was not a top three player on their team in their only repeat performance championships.

22/7 and Chris Bosh circa 2012-2014 numbers in 1988 mean nothing?


. And Magic still made it to the finals in spite of Kareem in '89. And made it again to the finals without Kareem one more time

False. Magic took the 63 win top seed to a loss in the WCSF against the Blazers in 89'. That was the first time since 1981 that the Lakers failed to reach the WCF. Coincidence?



Kareem in his 20 years

That is what is conveniently lost in the talk by KAJ detractors. Wilt was out the league by 36, MJ was gone by 35 and then only a borderline all-star type at ag 38, the list goes on and on. Meanwhile Kareem was still good enough to be all-NBA first team and top 5 in MVP voting at age 38. So because he did not decline nearly as quickly as any other player in NBA history, his age is completely discounted so an old Kareem getting defeated by a PEAK Moses is dismissed.

[knicksman]

if jordan isnt GOAT because his team won 57 then why kareem when his team won 63 and 58 and his team went to the finals. If jordan isnt GOAT for having pippen then why kareem when he just not have a pippen(worthy) but a GOAT candidate teammate(Magic) too. Maybe its time to go back school OP coz your logic is seriously lacking.:lol These lebron stans really

[Roundball_Rock]

if jordan isnt GOAT because his team won 57

Who said that? What people say regarding the 94' Bulls is they proved they were a top team without MJ. No one is arguing they were equal to the Bulls with MJ. The argument is MJ had the best team of the decade--that if you take a top team and add a GOAT caliber player the result is domination. A Knicks fan should grasp this: the Bulls without MJ in 94' were equal to the Knicks by every metric (wins, roster, head-to-head) so it is not shocking that with MJ they beat the Knicks on a routine basis. :lol


If jordan isnt GOAT for having pippen

Who has said that?

As a note, Kareem was 43 when he retired. MJ was at his peak when he retired the first time.

[knicksman]

Who said that? What people say regarding the 94' Bulls is they proved they were a top team without MJ. No one is arguing they were equal to the Bulls with MJ. The argument is MJ had the best team of the decade--that if you take a top team and add a GOAT caliber player the result is domination. A Knicks fan should grasp this: the Bulls without MJ in 94' were equal to the Knicks by every metric (wins, roster, head-to-head) so it is not shocking that with MJ they beat the Knicks on a routine basis. :lol



Who has said that?

As a note, Kareem was 43 when he retired. MJ was at his peak when he retired the first time.

Honestly reread what youre saying and maybe youll get it. You are just too dumb

[Hey Yo]

yeah magic cant win w/o kareem same with kareem not winning w/o robertson/magic. LOL these idiots. Kareem was overrated. 5 MVPs for just a ring. LOL luckily magic came to save his ass. He couldve ended the most overrated player in history along with wilt who has 4 mvps for just 1 ring as the man.
This ranks up there as a top 3 most stupid post / awful trolling I've ever seen.

[Hey Yo]

Some rank Magic top 5 all-time. Some say he's 2nd. But dude barely had a jump shot and played well below average defense, for a PG.

If someone is overrated in the top 10 all time......it's Magic.

[SHAQisGOAT]

First, is anyone else amused by the irony of a Wilt fan attacking KAJ as a choker and loser? :roll: :roll:



Kareem was the league MVP--referred to as the most dominant force in basketball by SI; Magic did not receive a single MVP vote that year. Magic did not make an all-NBA team in 1980 and in fact would not make the all-NBA first team until 1983.



Which provides further evidence that Kareem was the top player on the team. While having two elite players playing together generally hurts the stats of both, it is the #2 player who cedes much more in terms of stats to the top player (see Wade as a prime current example).



There is nothing to differ on. That Magic never win a ring without Kareem is a factual statement.



That is speculation. KAJ was still a 18 ppg scorer in the regular season and a 22 ppg scorer in the Finals. Such players do not grow on trees. Indeed, Green's career high was 14.7 and his career average was in the single digits. Thompson posted 10/7 without Kareem in 1990 as the starter.



Wow. Kareem was 41 at the time! Where were the other GOAT candidates at that age? Wilt retired at 36; Kareem was all-NBA first team as late as age 38.



And promptly choked in the playoffs and subsequently got the coach, who had won a title just the previous year, fired early in 1982.



I did not right that article...



Kareem never missed an extended stretch. His lowest total from 1980-1988 was 76 games in 82' followed by 79 a couple of times. Let me guess, your statistic relies on the 8 games he missed in 1989?



Magic without Kareem in the playoffs: lost in the WCFS with the #1 seed, lost in the Finals, lost in the first round.




All true--but using that logic then Scottie Pippen was the leader of the 90's Bulls.



22/7 and Chris Bosh circa 2012-2014 numbers in 1988 mean nothing?



False. Magic took the 63 win top seed to a loss in the WCSF against the Blazers in 89'. That was the first time since 1981 that the Lakers failed to reach the WCF. Coincidence?




That is what is conveniently lost in the talk by KAJ detractors. Wilt was out the league by 36, MJ was gone by 35 and then only a borderline all-star type at ag 38, the list goes on and on. Meanwhile Kareem was still good enough to be all-NBA first team and top 5 in MVP voting at age 38. So because he did not decline nearly as quickly as any other player in NBA history, his age is completely discounted so an old Kareem getting defeated by a PEAK Moses is dismissed.

Dat ether :applause:

[knicksman]

Some rank Magic top 5 all-time. Some say he's 2nd. But dude barely had a jump shot and played well below average defense, for a PG.

If someone is overrated in the top 10 all time......it's Magic.

yeah coz a jumpshot and defense is so important for a PG..:lol LOw IQ alert

[LAZERUSS]

First, is anyone else amused by the irony of a Wilt fan attacking KAJ as a choker and loser? :roll: :roll:



Kareem was the league MVP--referred to as the most dominant force in basketball by SI; Magic did not receive a single MVP vote that year. Magic did not make an all-NBA team in 1980 and in fact would not make the all-NBA first team until 1983.



Which provides further evidence that Kareem was the top player on the team. While having two elite players playing together generally hurts the stats of both, it is the #2 player who cedes much more in terms of stats to the top player (see Wade as a prime current example).



There is nothing to differ on. That Magic never win a ring without Kareem is a factual statement.



That is speculation. KAJ was still a 18 ppg scorer in the regular season and a 22 ppg scorer in the Finals. Such players do not grow on trees. Indeed, Green's career high was 14.7 and his career average was in the single digits. Thompson posted 10/7 without Kareem in 1990 as the starter.



Wow. Kareem was 41 at the time! Where were the other GOAT candidates at that age? Wilt retired at 36; Kareem was all-NBA first team as late as age 38.



And promptly choked in the playoffs and subsequently got the coach, who had won a title just the previous year, fired early in 1982.



I did not right that article...



Kareem never missed an extended stretch. His lowest total from 1980-1988 was 76 games in 82' followed by 79 a couple of times. Let me guess, your statistic relies on the 8 games he missed in 1989?



Magic without Kareem in the playoffs: lost in the WCFS with the #1 seed, lost in the Finals, lost in the first round.




All true--but using that logic then Scottie Pippen was the leader of the 90's Bulls.



22/7 and Chris Bosh circa 2012-2014 numbers in 1988 mean nothing?



False. Magic took the 63 win top seed to a loss in the WCSF against the Blazers in 89'. That was the first time since 1981 that the Lakers failed to reach the WCF. Coincidence?




That is what is conveniently lost in the talk by KAJ detractors. Wilt was out the league by 36, MJ was gone by 35 and then only a borderline all-star type at ag 38, the list goes on and on. Meanwhile Kareem was still good enough to be all-NBA first team and top 5 in MVP voting at age 38. So because he did not decline nearly as quickly as any other player in NBA history, his age is completely discounted so an old Kareem getting defeated by a PEAK Moses is dismissed.

A Chamberlain "choke job" was "only" outscoring, outrbounding, and outshooting his opposing centers, all blessed with far more talented rosters...by x per game, and losing in a game seven by 1-4 points.

KAJ...not so much.


There is a MAJOR difference between being the BEST player, and LEADING a team. KAJ in '80 was the best player, but it was MAGIC, like Oscar from '71 thru '74, who LED those teams. Kareem could catch, shoot, and rebound (somewhat), and defend (somewhat) in 1980. He had never proven to LEAD a team.


Again, Magic won the most pivotal game of the '80 Finals...withOUT Kareem. He won a FMVP, while easily being the BEST player on an '82 team in which McAdoo, in considerably less minutes, equaled KAJ's production. He won a ring in '87 with KAJ as the third wheel, and with Thompson and Green combined, certainly capable of giving them what KAJ did. Thompson in '89-90...again SPLIT his role with Green AND Divac. The three. combined, gave them considerably more than KAJ had in '87. Not even close.

"Choked" in the playoffs? Yes, by his standards, although 14 rpg doesn't sound so bad. Of course, KAJ getting pummeled by Moses didn't help, either.

You did not write the article, and the person that did was a complete idiot, as I PROVED conclusively. Kareem was nowhere near the force that Moses was from '78-79 to 81-82, and the '83 Finals just confirmed what EVERYONE else already knew.

32 games in NOT a small sample. 24-8 withOUT KAJ, including 1-0 in the biggest game of the '80 season. BTW, the 72-74 Bucks went 8-0 withOUT Kareem, as well. Nor is the 190 games that Magic would play withOUT Kareem AFTER he retired, either. And from '90 thru '91...119-39, or .753...and oh BTW, withOUT Magic in those two seasons... 2-4, or .333 .

Magic withOUT Kareem, went 63-19, the year after KAJ's presence was on a 57-25 team. That they did not win it all, and blaming Magic with his 25-13-6 series...then you do blame KAJ for losing to the Warriors and Sonics in '73 and '78 then? And yes, I do.

Magic taking a rapidly declining, and injury-plagued, roster to the '91 Finals was considerably more than KAJ did at ANY point in his career.


And I don't care how old KAJ was. In '86-87 he was basically a role player, and after that, he was basically worthless. Had he played as poorly until 50 would not have made any difference to me.

And a 23 year old Moses was already pounding a 31 year old KAJ. That he would continue to do so the rest of their careers in interesting from this standpoint, though. The Wilt-bashers will fight any argument that a 34-36 year old Wilt outplayed a 24-26 year old KAJ in at least HALF of their H2H's...but the very fact that a well-past-his-prime Wilt was supposed to even be capable of standing on the same court with a PEAK Kareem gets overlooked. And again, THAT Wilt was STILL outplaying a PEAK Kareem in roughly HALF of their H2H's.

I guess a ten year old age difference doesn't apply to Wilt, though. BTW, we also have no proof that a 41 year old Wilt couldn't have STILL been dominating the NBA. In his LAST season, at age 36, he came in 4th in MVP balloting, led HIS 60-22 team MUCH farther than Kareem did HIS 60-22 team; led the NBA, and by a solid margin in rebounding (and then crushed the second best rebounder in the WCF's); was voted 1st team all-defense (for the second year in a row); set a FG% mark of .727 that no one, including Kareem, has ever approached; played 47.1 mpg in his 17 post-season games (which was BELOW his playoff career average BTW); averaged 22.5 rpg in a post-season in which the NBA averaged 50.6 rpg team (and BTW, the next highest playoff rpg since? KAJ in his 11 playoff games in '77, at 17.3 rpg.) Oh, and he took that team to the Finals, and in his very last game, and against HOFer Reed, hung a 23 point, on 9-16 FG/FGA, 21 rebound game.


Of course, we KNOW that a prime KAJ, in his 10 seasons before Magic, couldn't come close to what a PRIME Chamberlain had accomplished, in terms of either individual, team, or post-season success...and we do KNOW that KAJ, when paired up with MAGIC, went to eight Conference Finals, and won five more rings. BUT, we will never know what team accomplishments Wilt would have had. had he had the good fortune to have been paired up with MAGIC for TEN seasons. But, given what we know about both of their careers, sans MAGIC, well...I have no doubt that he would have had at least FIVE more rings, as well.

[LAZERUSS]

Some rank Magic top 5 all-time. Some say he's 2nd. But dude barely had a jump shot and played well below average defense, for a PG.

If someone is overrated in the top 10 all time......it's Magic.

Interesting. In the '82 Finals, Riley moved Magic on to Dr. J in games three and four. Why? Because Erving had averaged 11.5 rpg in the first two games. In those next two games...Erving averaged 3 rpg. Magic also led the NBA in spg twice, and led in the post-season, once. Furthermore, he gave his opposing defenders FAR more problems at their defensive end, than they gave him.

And I could not care less about his "jump shot." He could score 30+ points on demand. Hell, in his many H2H's with Bird and his "jump shot", guess who had the two highest scoring games? Yep, Magic with games of 39 and 38 points. And, of course in the clinching game six in the '80 Finals,....his "jump shot" was only good enough for 42 points, on 14-23 FG/FGA. BTW, he almost always put together incredible strings in terms of scoring. I just took a quick look at his 86-76 season, and he had an eight straight game run of 35.6 ppg (which included a 46 point...and in his lowest scoring game, of 17 points, he went 6-9 from the field, and handed out 18 assists.) And after a 4 point game, in 29 minutes, and with 18 assists, in a 140-104 blowout win, he then went on a nine game tear of 29.6 ppg, with a high of 42 in that run.

Magic's IMPACT went FAR beyond his "jump shot." The FACT that he is the greatest WINNER in NBA history says it all.

[dankok8]

If you have to lie, to call other people fools, its a bad reflection on yourself. You are definitely in the wrong place if you can't handle criticism not going your way in terms of players. In fact the internet is not made for you. If biased fools have flipped you... well then... .

I've seen a foolish extremely foolish biased statements which were either not based in fact or greatly embellishing certain aspects while ignoring others. That rocketsfansomething guy in particular and LAZ get carried away in some posts as well. Especially those targeted at Kareem and Bird.

It's not you. While we sometimes disagree you always post things that make sense.

And no nobody flipped me. I don't get emotional it's just a bit annoying to see people post random shit. I'm sure everyone has experienced this.

[Dr.J4ever]

That cover was in KAJ's 1985 FMVP run. A well-deserved FMVP.

BUT, Magic LED the Lakers to a title in '80. And a well-deserved FMVP.

BTW, here were Doug Collins comments following MAGIC's dominating game six of the '80 Finals...




How about the 1982 Finals? MAGIC wins a well-deserved FMVP. Kareem? Hell, a part-time Bob McAdoo, off the bench, nearly equaled Kareem's production in that Finals. NO ONE claimed Kareem was leading that team BTW.


As for this "Cap" nonsense...if anything it was to motivate a man who was NEVER a leader.



Magic not winning a title without Kareem? I beg to differ. In the '80 Finals, in the clinching game six win, on the road, and without the team's SECOND best player, he absolutely dominated the game. BTW, Magic never lost a playoff game that Kareem missed when the two were playing together, while KAJ never won a game in Magic's absence.

Again, in '82, Magic LED the Lakers to a title, and as we KNOW, a part-time McAdoo was just as productive as a full-time KAJ. A full-time McAdoo would have been enough.

'87? Sorry, but that Laker team could EASILY have given KAJ's mpg to the combined duo of Thompson and Green, and won an NBA title.

'88? This is truly laughable. One thing is for certain, though, ...when Magic had a poor series, the Lakers had no chance. When KAJ played poorly, well, just look at '88. Arguably the WORST playoff perfromance, the WORST Finals performance, and no doubt the WORST game seven performance by a GOAT candidate in NBA history. The Lakers could have replaced Kareem with Betty White and been better off.




'80. Kareem.

'81. Kareem finished ahead of Magic, BUT, Magic missed 45 games.

'82 on. MAGIC EVERY single season.

'82. Magic was 8th and Kareem was 10th, BUT, Magic had just come off of a season in which he was blamed for the Lakers firing their head coach. And he still had twice as many points as Kareem BTW. And was CLEARLY LA's MVP in the '82 post-season and Finals.

'83. Magic 3rd with 304 points. Kareem 10th with 15.

'84. Magic 3rd with 305 points. Kareem 4th with 153. Not really close was it?

'85. Magic 2nd. Kareem 4th. Again, not really that close.

'86. Magic 3rd. Kareem 5th. Not close.

And after that, Magic FINALLY starting receiving his due, and just blew EVERYONE away.




Moses was "finally passed the torch in '83"? You have got to be kidding. Moses won an MVP in '79, and then again in '82 and '83.
Kareem won his last MVP in '80 (thank you very much Magic BTW.)

And how about this. From that '79 season on Moses would average more ppg and rpg, EACH season, until Kareem retired. 11 STRAIGHT seasons. And while I am a big fan of FG% efficiency, Moses was one of the exceptions to that rule, since if he missed a shot, there was a good chance he would get it back himself. Hell, in their '83 Finals H2H's, Moses had more OR's than Kareem had total rebounds.

And speaking of H2H's...Moses just CRUSHED Kareem. EVERY season from '79 on, in scoring and rebounding.

In their '78-79 H2H's, Moses outscored Kareem, per game, 31.0 ppg to 30.7 ppg, and outrebounded him, per game, 23.0 to 11.3 (!)

In their 79-80 H2H's, Moses outscored Kareem, per game, 30.5 ppg to 19.5 ppg, and outrebounded him, per game, 16.0 rpg to 11.5 rpg.

In their 80-81 regular season H2H's, Moses averaged 26.8 ppg to KAJ's 23.2 ppg, and 16.8 rpg to KAJ's 9.4. In their three playoff H2H's, Moses outscored KAJ, per game, 31.3 ppg to 26.7 ppg, and outrebounded him, per game, 17.7 rpg to 16.7 rpg. Oh, and KAJ shot .462 in that post-season series, as well, in a post-season NBA that had an eFG% of .473.

In their 81-82 H2H's, Moses just brutalized Kareem. In their five H2H's, Moses outscored Kareem, per game, 34.4 ppg to 21.8 ppg, and outrebounded the helpless Kareem by a 15.8 rpg to 6.2 rpg margin

The "torch" had been passed LONG BEFORE in '83 my friend. It had been passed back in 78-79. Moses was the most feared player in the league from '79 thru '83. And he was certainly more feared than Kareem after '83, as well.

BTW, in their 82-83 regular season H2H, Moses outscored Kareem, 29-15, and outrebounded him, by, get this... a 14-2 margin. Again, that "torch had been passed" LONG ago.

And in the '83 Finals...well, just a huge one-sided beatdown. Moses outscored KAJ, 25.8 ppg to 23.5 ppg, and outrebounded him... 18.0 rpg to 7.5 rpg.



Magic and Kareem in their 10 seasons in the league together: When Magic missed a game, LA won 60.3% of their games without him. When Kareem missed a game, LA won 75.0% of their games without him. Hell, AFTER Kareem retired, Magic had a 74.3% winning percentage. BEFORE Magic arrived, Kareem had a 65.6 winning percentage.


Kareem in the '70's?

Basically TWO Finals, and ONE ring (and the easiest run to a title in NBA history.)

FIVE Conference Finals...and went 2-3 in them (and swept by a 49-33 team in one of those.)

THREE other playoff series, one a 4-1 blowout loss to a 50-32 Sonics team with one borderline HOF player; another a first round loss to a 47-35 Sonics team with one borderline HOF player; and then yet another first round loss, when he he shot-jacked his 60-22 team right down in flames against a 47-35 team.

And TWO seasons in which his team's didn't even make the playoffs.

Oh, and TWO scoring titles, ONE rpg title, and ONE FG% title. And those would be his only scoring, rebounding, and FG% titles in his 20 seasons.

And Kareem's Lakers BEFORE Magic? Either didn't make the playoffs, were swept by a lower seed in the WCF's, or were early round cannon-fodder.

With MAGIC and Coat-Tails Kareem...EIGHT Finals, and FIVE rings.



WithOUT Kareem? Records of 63-19 (and a BETTER record than in KAJ's last season), as well as Magic taking an over-the-hill and injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24, and yet another Finals.

WithOUT MAGIC. Back-to-back seasons of 43-39 and 39-43...or about the level that Kareem had them playing at BEFORE MAGIC.

Kareem has NO CASE as the GOAT. NONE.

Spin. More spin.

No matter the globs and globs of information you put out here to belittle KAJ in order to prop up Wilt, it won't work. You will never escape the fact that Magic never won a title without KAJ. Never did. And no, one game in the 1980 finals does not qualify. Magic was a rookie revolving around the franchise, the MVP, the most dominant player in the game at the time in KAJ.

KAJ averaged 33.4/13.6/3.2/4.6bpg vs. Magic's 21ppg in the 1980 Finals. One game where Magic and the Lakers surprised the Sixers with their "small ball" isn't really a qualification for "leading" your team to the NBA title. You can't also tell me Magic was FMVP in 1980. Manu should have FMVP in 2005 vs. Detroit, but there is no real question by anyone, including those who believed Manu deserved it, that Duncan remained the Spurs best player at the time. So winning FMVP in a series where your top player was injured for ONE GAME is not too impressive. I mean, you like stats, right? Check KAJ's stats during the season and during the playoffs, and there is no question that he was the Lakers best player in 1980.

You can't also discount the fact that Magic SHARED ball handling duties with Norm Nixon from 1980-1984. Nixon averaged high APG, as you know. This is, in fact, proof that Magic was not handed the keys to the offense until 1985 when Riley decided to utilize Magic's abilities more than ever. It doesn't matter that the Lakers got better when Magic took over. The point is, Magic wasn't as trusted early on, and KAJ held the reigns.

In fact, much of the discussion during the early 80s on the best all around player in the game centered around Dr.J and Larry Bird, not Magic. I don't really consider MVP votes. It's either you win it or you don't. Votes for 3rd place and 10th place? Really? That's just media and politics. Boring.

The 1985 Finals? You saw the SI cover. That really speaks for itself plus the fact that KAJ went 25.7/9/5.2/1.5 bpg in the Finals vs. Magics 18ppg. The 1982 Finals was a more balanced and devastating offense for the Lakers with Mcadoo in the lineup. Don't forget that KAJ was still the Laker's leading scorer during the season with 23.9 vs. Magic at 18ppg. No, scoring is not everything, but it does indicate a lot on who the Lakers most trusted when they needed buckets. Is there really any question that Magic deferred to Kareem? At least until 1985. Not in my mind.

If you tell me Kaj was not the Lakers best player during the early 80s because of Magic's leadership, assists that glued the team together, and general enthusiasm, then Dr.J was also the Sixers best player in 1983. In fact, Doc would have a better claim on this since Moses arrived to "fix" a weakness at the center position on a team already built around Julius.

From 1985 onwards, yes Kareem declined, and Magic became the best player. It's no coincidence that he finally wins MVP in 1987, a sure sign that he is the team's best player. Kareem remained an anchor, in the same way Duncan is the Spurs anchor, even though Tony Parker today is SA's best player.

Stop with this Kareem revisionist history. It's kinda ugly.

[Roundball_Rock]

Spin. More spin.

No matter the globs and globs of information you put out here to belittle KAJ in order to prop up Wilt, it won't work. You will never escape the fact that Magic never won a title without KAJ. Never did. And no, one game in the 1980 finals does not qualify. Magic was a rookie revolving around the franchise, the MVP, the most dominant player in the game at the time in KAJ.

KAJ averaged 33.4/13.6/3.2/4.6bpg vs. Magic's 21ppg in the 1980 Finals. One game where Magic and the Lakers surprised the Sixers with their "small ball" isn't really a qualification for "leading" your team to the NBA title. You can't also tell me Magic was FMVP in 1980. Manu should have FMVP in 2005 vs. Detroit, but there is no real question by anyone, including those who believed Manu deserved it, that Duncan remained the Spurs best player at the time. So winning FMVP in a series where your top player was injured for ONE GAME is not too impressive. I mean, you like stats, right? Check KAJ's stats during the season and during the playoffs, and there is no question that he was the Lakers best player in 1980.

You can't also discount the fact that Magic SHARED ball handling duties with Norm Nixon from 1980-1984. Nixon averaged high APG, as you know. This is, in fact, proof that Magic was not handed the keys to the offense until 1985 when Riley decided to utilize Magic's abilities more than ever. It doesn't matter that the Lakers got better when Magic took over. The point is, Magic wasn't as trusted early on, and KAJ held the reigns.

In fact, much of the discussion during the early 80s on the best all around player in the game centered around Dr.J and Larry Bird, not Magic. I don't really consider MVP votes. It's either you win it or you don't. Votes for 3rd place and 10th place? Really? That's just media and politics. Boring.

The 1985 Finals? You saw the SI cover. That really speaks for itself plus the fact that KAJ went 25.7/9/5.2/1.5 bpg in the Finals vs. Magics 18ppg. The 1982 Finals was a more balanced and devastating offense for the Lakers with Mcadoo in the lineup. Don't forget that KAJ was still the Laker's leading scorer during the season with 23.9 vs. Magic at 18ppg. No, scoring is not everything, but it does indicate a lot on who the Lakers most trusted when they needed buckets. Is there really any question that Magic deferred to Kareem? At least until 1985. Not in my mind.

If you tell me Kaj was not the Lakers best player during the early 80s because of Magic's leadership, assists that glued the team together, and general enthusiasm, then Dr.J was also the Sixers best player in 1983. In fact, Doc would have a better claim on this since Moses arrived to "fix" a weakness at the center position on a team already built around Julius.

From 1985 onwards, yes Kareem declined, and Magic became the best player. It's no coincidence that he finally wins MVP in 1987, a sure sign that he is the team's best player. Kareem remained an anchor, in the same way Duncan is the Spurs anchor, even though Tony Parker today is SA's best player.

Stop with this Kareem revisionist history. It's kinda ugly.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[La Frescobaldi]

I got Kareem/Jordan.. LeBron looks to be entering soon.
i watched chamberlain so i know the deal on that. dude was unbelievably great.

For me LBJ won't ever be in that circle he disrespected the game for years by flopping.

[Rocketswin2013]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
You actually believe KAJ was better than Jordan, don't you?

[jlip]

I didn't feel like starting another thread but I was just looking at Kareem statistically. Looking at his first 16 seasons...1970-1985

Reg. season
26.6ppg 12.5rpg 4.0apg 3.0bpg 56.2fg% 71.8 ft%

Playoffs
27.4ppg 12.6rpg 3.8apg 3.0bpg 54.0fg% 72.9ft%

At that time his 27.4ppg was 2nd all time for retired players behind only Jerry West.

In the reg. season he had led the league in:
Scoring- 2X
Rebounding- 1X
Fg%- 1X
Blocks- 4X

In the playoffs he had led the league in:
Scoring- 5X
Rebounding- 1X
Fg%- 1X
Blocks- 6X

[feyki]

Great thread :applause: .

[Roundball_Rock]

Too much misinformation being pushed about this so a bump is warranted. :cheers:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I have some points that I would like you to quote and respond back with.

1974 Kareem takes them to finals but leads them to just a 92 offensive rating. What's a matter kareem is Oscar too old for him to carry you like he did in 1971 when he tripled your assists?

1975 - No playoffs, no top 5 srs, no top 5 offensive/defense rating. Unacceptable for a goat level player at 27 years old.
Kareem is slowly getting frustrated that he no longer can play with a prime Oscar/Magic level player that can triple his assists and win rings. Kareem demands a trade.

1976 - Kareem fails to get Lakers to .500 record and misses playoffs again.

1977 - Kareem gets swept by Bill Walton in WCF despite being a 1st seed.

1978/1979 - Kareem misses time due to injury and plays 62 games like Kawhi in 2019. Lakers still have top 3 offense with Kareem playing 62 games. Kareem loses in the 1st round to Jack Sikma wow how do you lose to that guy.

[Roundball_Rock]

You are acting in bad faith. Those are covered in the OP. Essentially, Kareem detractors have to rely on playoff injuries to his teammates denigrate him because his individual record is unassailable. Somehow him having bad luck with injuries makes him a lesser player than luckier players. :lol Your other points were addressed yesterday--yet you still repeat them.


frustrated that he no longer can play with a prime Oscar/Magic level player that can triple his assists and win rings. Kareem demands a trade.

This is flat out dishonest. Kareem wanted a trade for off the court reasons--and he asked for a trade because he wanted the team that drafted him and had been good to him to get value for him. He easily could have waited a year and signed with the Lakers with a full roster intact (like today's superstars do) but that would have screwed his original team. Instead they got a king's ransom back for him.