Tim Duncan vs Manu Ginobili ( who was the real 2005 FINALS MVP )

[kennethgriffin]

stats for San antonio's 4 NBA finals Victories

Game 1 ( W )

Manu - 26/9/2 ( 30points including assist production )
Duncan - 24/17/2 (28 points including assist production )

Game 2 ( W )

Manu - 27/3/7 ( 41 points including assist production )
Duncan - 18/11/1 ( 20 points including assist production )

Game 5 ( W )

Manu - 15/6/9 ( 33 points including assist production )
Duncan - 26/19/2 ( 30 points including assist production )

Game 7 ( W )

Manu - 23/5/4 ( 31 points including assist production )
Duncan - 25/11/3 ( 31 points including assist production )


Finals winning average

Manu 23ppg ( 34ppg including assist production )
Duncan 23ppg ( 27ppg including assist production )



manu was more responsible in the offensive success of the spurs.

a 7 footer averaging more rebounds is expected... whats not expected is a manu driving the spurs on offense.

manu deserved that finals mvp


and hes doing it again this year with 16 points and 11 assists in game 1


thats an output of 38 points manu is responsible for


please dont let duncan steal yet another finals mvp for laying in 2 foot put backs over shane battier

:facepalm

[aj1987]

Defense, idiot.

[J Shuttlesworth]

The guy who got 11, 17, 19, rebounds, and is the defensive anchor for the team

[Mr. Jabbar]

manu was the deciding factor in game 1

pop is that teams mvp tho

[ArbitraryWater]

Like I said, only twice in NBA History did the winning finals team Win Shares leader not get FMVP... 2005 Ginobili and 2010 Gasol.

Both acknowledged as wrong picks.

[kennethgriffin]

The guy who got 11, 17, 19, rebounds, and is the defensive anchor for the team


"rodman = 96 bulls mvp" - george karl

defensive anchor.. averaged nearly 20 rebounds


so? jordan won finals mvp cause he drove the offense.. and the bulls actually were a defensive team first during the 90s

[Byobob]

"rodman = 96 bulls mvp" - george karl

defensive anchor.. averaged nearly 20 rebounds


so? jordan won finals mvp cause he drove the offense.. and the bulls actually were a defensive team first during the 90s


Well, Rodman wasn't really an option on offense when he was playing for the Bulls. He made a great impact by playing great D and grabbing rebounds but to compare TD to Rodman in terms of impact on both ends of the floor isn't exactly bright, even for you.

[J Shuttlesworth]

"rodman = 96 bulls mvp" - george karl

defensive anchor.. averaged nearly 20 rebounds


so? jordan won finals mvp cause he drove the offense.. and the bulls actually were a defensive team first during the 90s
I know you're an idiot, but come the **** on:facepalm

Duncan is basically matching Ginobli in points + assists combined, while dominating him in rebounds and being the elite defender on the floor. Rodman never put up numbers close to Jordan offensively, otherwise he could have snagged an FMVP

[aj1987]

"rodman = 96 bulls mvp" - george karl

defensive anchor.. averaged nearly 20 rebounds


so? jordan won finals mvp cause he drove the offense.. and the bulls actually were a defensive team first during the 90s
Did Rodman average 21 points as well?

[Kblaze8855]

21/14/2...key defender on a team that won with defense...

19/6/4

Looks about right the 21/14 won finals mvp.

Not that finals MVP really even matters.

[DFish24]

Manu got robbed. Duncan shooting that Iverson like efficiency as a big man is just:facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

Manu got robbed. Duncan shooting that Iverson like efficiency as a big man is just:facepalm

since when do you guys care about efficiency?

[red1]

since when do you guys care about efficiency?
:oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

2005 finals fg%


duncan = 41%

manu = 50%


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


i can understand when a big man shoots a higher %. it doesnt mean much cause they get way easier looks... but when the guy taking threes and fadeaways is shooting 10% higher... you know its f*cked up


MANU = points/assists/efficiency = MVP hands down

[kennethgriffin]

since when do you guys care about efficiency?
LOL its not a bad thing when a guard shoots a lower %.. they take outside shots all game...

its horrific if the big man down low is shooting 40%


wow

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[red1]

my take-away from this thread is that duncan is clearly better than kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

LOL its not a bad thing when a guard shoots a lower %.. they take outside shots all game...

its horrific if the big man down low is shooting 40%


wow

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

posting 4 wtf's?

you shook http://hoops-nation.com/community/public/style_emoticons/dark/mad.png

[kennethgriffin]

my take-away from this thread is that duncan is clearly better than kobe


let duncan worry about manu and parker first.. then worry about kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

my take-away from this thread is that duncan is clearly better than kobe

pretty much :cheers:

not that I learned anything new though

[Paul George 24]

2005 finals fg%


duncan = 41%

manu = 50%


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


i can understand when a big man shoots a higher %. it doesnt mean much cause they get way easier looks... but when the guy taking threes and fadeaways is shooting 10% higher... you know its f*cked up


MANU = points/assists/efficiency = MVP hands down

HOW ABOUT KOBE ????????:confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

2005 Spurs finals mvp = manu
2007 Spurs finals mvp = parker
2013 Spurs finals mvp = Green
2014 Spurs finals mvp = AC

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[kennethgriffin]

HOW ABOUT KOBE ????????:confusedshrug:


guards are expected to shoot a lower percentage... a big man like gasol averaging 50% and kobe averaging 46% is normal.. especially when kobes averaging 10 more points on 20 foot shots all game..

what isnt right is manu averaging 50% fg's on outside shots. and duncan averaging 40% on layups and 5 foot bankers

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[DFish24]

2005 Spurs finals mvp = manu
2007 Spurs finals mvp = parker
2013 Spurs finals mvp = Green
2014 Spurs finals mvp = AC

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Don't forget

1999 Spurs Finals MVP= LOCKOUT

So that leaves Duncan with 1 FMVP in 2003.

[J Shuttlesworth]

2005 finals fg%


duncan = 41%

manu = 50%


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


i can understand when a big man shoots a higher %. it doesnt mean much cause they get way easier looks... but when the guy taking threes and fadeaways is shooting 10% higher... you know its f*cked up


MANU = points/assists/efficiency = MVP hands down
2009 finals fg%:

Pau Gasol: 60%
Kobe: 43%

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[red1]

pretty much :cheers:

not that I learned anything new though
Like the heavens and the earth. Tim duncan soaring above and kobe in the dirt

[ArbitraryWater]

2005 Spurs finals mvp = manu
2007 Spurs finals mvp = parker
2013 Spurs finals mvp = Green
2014 Spurs finals mvp = AC

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

AC yet you made a thread saying LeBron should play through that bullshit its not an excuse :lol

[Rocketswin2013]

guards are expected to shoot a lower percentage... a big man like gasol averaging 50% and kobe averaging 46% is normal.. especially when kobes averaging 10 more points on 20 foot shots all game..

what isnt right is manu averaging 50% fg's on outside shots. and duncan averaging 40% on layups and 5 foot bankers

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
:roll: TLP better get in here. KG is going in.
:lebronamazed:

[robert_shaww]

2005 finals fg%


duncan = 41%

manu = 50%


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


i can understand when a big man shoots a higher %. it doesnt mean much cause they get way easier looks... but when the guy taking threes and fadeaways is shooting 10% higher... you know its f*cked up


MANU = points/assists/efficiency = MVP hands down


:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[red1]

AC yet you made a thread saying LeBron should play through that bullshit its not an excuse :lol
Bro I am starting to feel bad for kenny what are you doing to him is reaching bully status

[ArbitraryWater]

Damn Kobe shot a 41% "IVERSON LIKE" percentage throughout his 7 finals?????

:wtf: :biggums: :eek:

[kennethgriffin]

2009 finals fg%:

Pau Gasol: 60%
Kobe: 43%

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


a guard shooting 43-45% in the finals = normal

a center shooting 40% in the finals = irregular



if a guy takes 6-7 threes a game. and the other guy only dunks or shoots layups... guess whos percentage will be higher?


duncan = 40% on layups

manu = 50% on 20-30 footers

:lol

[aj1987]

a guard shooting 43-45% in the finals = normal

a center shooting 40% in the finals = irregular



if a guy takes 6-7 threes a game. and the other guy only dunks or shoots layups... guess whos percentage will be higher?


duncan = 40% on layups

manu = 50% on 20-30 footers

:lol

Duncan took more shots outside of 10ft than Manu, idiot.

[red1]

Damn Kobe shot a 41% "IVERSON LIKE" percentage throughout his 7 finals?????

:wtf: :biggums: :eek:
my goodness arbitrarywater just bullying this kid

[Frozen1]

Duncan lost in the first round to the 8th seed when he didn't have his argentinian friend bailing him out.

Lost in the olympics to his argentinian friend.

[Paul George 24]

guards are expected to shoot a lower percentage... a big man like gasol averaging 50% and kobe averaging 46% is normal.. especially when kobes averaging 10 more points on 20 foot shots all game..

what isnt right is manu averaging 50% fg's on outside shots. and duncan averaging 40% on layups and 5 foot bankers

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

so mj is 10 times better than kobe :banana:
kobe will never come close :lol

[kennethgriffin]

Duncan lost in the first round to the 8th seed when he didn't have his argentinian friend bailing him out.

Lost in the olympics to his argentinian friend.


manu is so underrated all time its sad

[Paul George 24]

Duncan lost in the first round to the 8th seed when he didn't have his argentinian friend bailing him out.

Lost in the olympics to his argentinian friend.

duncan playing with injuried legs

[Heavincent]

Like I said, only twice in NBA History did the winning finals team Win Shares leader not get FMVP... 2005 Ginobili and 2010 Gasol.

Both acknowledged as wrong picks.

How about 01 Kobe?

[ArbitraryWater]

How about 01 Kobe?

Nope, Shaq had more finals win shares, hence he was (once again) the deserved fmvp

[Heavincent]

Nope, Shaq had more finals win shares, hence he was (once again) the deserved fmvp

But overall, Kobe led the post season in win shares. Does that mean Shaq got a Cedric Maxwell or Tony Parker esque MVP? :confusedshrug:

Win shares...such an important stat.

[kennethgriffin]

Nope, Shaq had more finals win shares, hence he was (once again) the deserved fmvp


where in fmvp voting criteria does it say winshares are the deciding factor

i think it has more to do with output

if a guy like kobe is averaging 30/6/5 ( 40 ppg output offensively ) and every assist gasol gets is from kobes double team off a pick and roll... then its obvious whos having the most impact

manu not only scored more and drove the offense by playmaking. he stole a big mans only claim to fame... efficiency LOL


not only that.. the biggest stops in the finals were due to kobe... whether it be ray allens nba record worst shooting performance. or game 7 when pierce/allen went 8 for 29

[Dbrog]

u fcking idiot :facepalm

stop with your dumbass emphasis on points. I'm sure you think that Bill Russell wasn't his teams best player either. Duncan was the best player but 05' Gino was the catalyst. He took them over the hump and secured them the chip that year. It doesn't mean he was necessarily better though. Don't get all on Gino's nuts either cause he also lost the Spurs 2 rings basically by himself.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Like I said, only twice in NBA History did the winning finals team Win Shares leader not get FMVP... 2005 Ginobili and 2010 Gasol.

Both acknowledged as wrong picks.
1995 Playoffs
Drexler: 3.0 WS
Hakeem: 2.8 WS

2001 Playoffs
Kobe: 3.8 WS
Shaq: 3.7 WS

[aj1987]

1995 Playoffs
Drexler: 3.0 WS
Hakeem: 2.8 WS

2001 Playoffs
Kobe: 3.8 WS
Shaq: 3.7 WS
He's talking about the Finals. Not the entire playoffs.

[Dbrog]

He's talking about the Finals. Not the entire playoffs.

Does it matter? Deuce highlighted his point with the stat very well.

[rmt]

u fcking idiot :facepalm

stop with your dumbass emphasis on points. I'm sure you think that Bill Russell wasn't his teams best player either. Duncan was the best player but 05' Gino was the catalyst. He took them over the hump and secured them the chip that year. It doesn't mean he was necessarily better though. Don't get all on Gino's nuts either cause he also lost the Spurs 2 rings basically by himself.

kennethgriffin, listen to Lebron from 00:53 to 1:50 at http://www.nba.com/video/?ls=iref:nba:gnav That'll tell you why Duncan is still the most important player on the Spurs even today. Defense is half of the game - it's not just scoring.

Disagree with Manu taking them over the hump and securing them the chip. That was Duncan in game 7.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

With his unique multidimensional talent, Duncan depleted and dissected the Pistons, collecting 25 points and 11 rebounds. He was the fulcrum of virtually every key play down the stretch.

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

[kennethgriffin]

He's talking about the Finals. Not the entire playoffs.


what good is a winshare stat if 22 year old kobe had a higher one for an entire playoffs than absolute peak prime shaquille oneal

:lol :oldlol: :roll:


if winshares are valid then 2001 kobe = greatest player ever.

[PickernRoller]

Who cares really? Duncan even if he wins another ring won't be better than Kobe. So if that's the point it doesn't matter if LeStans or Kobe haters agree.

Popularity contest on ISH are a waste of time. Fact is Kobe is greater than both of the clowns in this years Final by a fair margin.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Agenda thread.

Kobe stan trying to discredit a Duncan Finals MVP so that Duncan goes from three FMVP to two FMVP and be tied with Kobe.

You can play this game for the Lakers too though. Who was the real 2010 Finals MVP, Kobe or Pau Gasol.

[Carbine]

Good to know this idiot does not value defense or rebounding. At all.

Just because you're big doesn't mean rebounds happen. Lots of tall players don't rebound well.

Duncan was at or very very close to his defensive peak in '05.

[Deuce Bigalow]

He's talking about the Finals. Not the entire playoffs.
There are no NBA Finals win shares stats. If so aware me.

[aj1987]

There are no NBA Finals win shares stats. If so aware me.
I never use win shares, so I have no idea. I just pointed out that that guy was talking about the Finals.

[Dbrog]

kennethgriffin, listen to Lebron from 00:53 to 1:50 at http://www.nba.com/video/?ls=iref:nba:gnav That'll tell you why Duncan is still the most important player on the Spurs even today. Defense is half of the game - it's not just scoring.

Disagree with Manu taking them over the hump and securing them the chip. That was Duncan in game 7.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

With his unique multidimensional talent, Duncan depleted and dissected the Pistons, collecting 25 points and 11 rebounds. He was the fulcrum of virtually every key play down the stretch.

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."


Hey RMT nice post. I realized that I was actually thinking of 2007 when Oberto and Gino were having those crazy argentinian connections! I remember they won the spurs at least 1 series that year. Duncan still was best though.

[mehyaM24]

fact is, behind wade, duncan is the most overrated player of this generation.

he's been carried by manu and parker for at LEAST 7 years now....

and yes, regarding the 2005 finals, manu was more important to the spurs' success than duncan, who shot a miserable 41% from the floor.

[Dbrog]

fact is, behind wade, duncan is the most overrated player of this generation.

he's been carried by manu and parker for at LEAST 7 years now....

and yes, regarding the 2005 finals, manu was more important to the spurs' success than duncan, who shot a miserable 41% from the floor.

Honestly seeing posts like this in this thread makes me wonder if it's time to delete ISH from my bookmarks.

[mehyaM24]

Honestly seeing posts like this in this thread makes me wonder if it's time to delete ISH from my bookmarks.

you act like what I'm saying is outlandish. :oldlol: duncan was the spurs' best player from 99-06/07....manu and parker, since, have been statistically just as valuable (i'd argue MORE important) to their success though.

[Carbine]

Stat wise?

TLP needs to come in here and disprove that.

[SuperPippen]

Who cares really? Duncan even if he wins another ring won't be better than Kobe. So if that's the point it doesn't matter if LeStans or Kobe haters agree.

Popularity contest on ISH are a waste of time. Fact is Kobe is greater than both of the clowns in this years Final by a fair margin.

:roll:

It's so hilarious how this fakkit spews this verbal diarrhea this so confidently, as if no one will dispute him if he states his opinions as fact.

Duncan > Kobe. You and OP need to deal with it, kid. Unless you wanna keep telling yourself this other garbage so you can sleep more soundly at night.

[mehyaM24]

feel bad for kobe fans. lebron or duncan winning will just further distance themselves from the "kobe tier". :(

[T_L_P]

you act like what I'm saying is outlandish. :oldlol: duncan was the spurs' best player from 99-06/07....manu and parker, since, have been statistically just as valuable (i'd argue MORE important) to their success though.


Stat wise?

TLP needs to come in here and disprove that.

Playoffs.

Duncan 08-present: 17.9 / 10.5 / 2.5 / 0.7 / 1.8 / 21.5 PER / 10.2 WS / .151 WS/48 / 108 ORtg / 101 DRtg

Parker 08-present: 20.2 / 3.3 / 6.1 / 0.9 / 0.1 / 19.5 PER / 7.4 WS / .110 WS% / 106 OTtg / 108 DRtg

Manu 08-present: 15.3 / 3.6 / 4.6 / 1.4 / 0.3 / 18.8 PER / 7.2 WS / .137 WS/48 / 108R ORtg / 104 DRtg

[GimmeThat]

:yaohappy:

OP

[MagnumT/A]

manu is so underrated all time its sad

I think so too.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Mid 2000s era Manu Ginobili was an underrated dunker. He would shock me a little bit sometimes with his athletic plays in the play-offs and finals.

[KevinNYC]

Like I said, only twice in NBA History did the winning finals team Win Shares leader not get FMVP... 2005 Ginobili and 2010 Gasol.

Both acknowledged as wrong picks.

Where do you find NBA finals winshares?

[pastis]

i think its pretty clear that manu was the the real finals mvp in 205 - like gasol in 2010. i dont know whats so crazy to say this and what is so hard to face for duncan stans.

duncan is stil one of the goat, but he just didnt deserve it in 2005. where is the problem? but its normal that manu didnt get the fmvp 2005, because you have to be 3x times better or so as the "star" in the team for earing the fmvp (same with gasol 2010).

duncan is one of the top10, and was a monster until 2004-05, but i think, that he is just a little overrated, despite of being the "ANCHOR in the defense" and so his stans just dont see how important manu, parker and especially pop are and were for duncan succes (and vice versa of course).

give dirk pop and just a mediocre center averaging 10 and 10 and mediocore ring protection = lots of rings, lots lots lots of rings.

give gasol pop, parker and manu = contender every year and probably one or two rings.

[Noyze]

Sorry but the O ran through Duncan, hes averaged the same amount of points but was 3 times better on defense. Ginobili is a great player but if you take him away the Spurs they still contend in 05. Take Duncan away and the Spurs fall easy.

This isn't even close, you're talking about a guard who gets to pick his spots vs a big man who Detroit built their whole defense around stopping. These Ginobili stans are wreckless.

[TheCorporation]

Defense, idiot.

:lol :lol :lol

[SpanishACB]

a guard shooting 43-45% in the finals = normal

a center shooting 40% in the finals = irregular



if a guy takes 6-7 threes a game. and the other guy only dunks or shoots layups... guess whos percentage will be higher?


duncan = 40% on layups

manu = 50% on 20-30 footers

:lol


you need to take a deep breath and realize the difference between 45 and 60% could potentially account to missing three extra baskets.

Big whoopy doo... pretty sure Duncan received some crazy ass focus defensively in the finals or am i wrong?

not taking away anything from Manu mind, I'm pretty sure the south american was also key defensively (so much for Duncan's intangibles, sure, but don't forget Manu's)

[robert_shaww]

41% :facepalm

[houston]

duncan lead his team in points and rebounds of course it went to the right person

[Paul George 24]

41% :facepalm
higher than kome :banana:

[Overdrive]

stats for San antonio's 4 NBA finals Victories

As a Kobe fan I wouldn't go that route. Kobe outplayed Gasol in the loses and that's the reason he received the FMVP.





what good is a winshare stat if 22 year old kobe had a higher one for an entire playoffs than absolute peak prime shaquille oneal

:lol :oldlol: :roll:


if winshares are valid then 2001 kobe = greatest player ever.



22 year old Kobe wouldn't have sniffed one play-off game without Shaq on the team. The two lived off each other, while Shaq was more important to get them in position Kobe was just as important to finish teams off that would heavily concentrate on Shaq. I doubt you've seen any of the three peat Lakers.

[Mure]

Duncan > Kobe.

[Warners0]

Duncan lost in the first round to the 8th seed when he didn't have his argentinian friend bailing him out.

Lost in the olympics to his argentinian friend.

He also won 2 championships before Ginoboli ever good in the NBA LOL