Swap Moses with Kareem in the 80's

[LAZERUSS]

Swap Moses with KAJ in the entire decade of the 80's, and with all other player personnel being the same...how many rings does Moses win?

'80 for sure .(Hell, they won the clinching game six on the road without Kareem.)

'81 for sure (he single handedly beat LA in the first round with a 40-42 team, and then took that same cast of clowns to a game six loss against a good, but not great, Celtics team.)

'82 for sure

'83 for sure

'84 most likely (even with Kareem playing poorly the Lakers nearly won that series.)

'85 for sure (easily.)

'86 most likely, but Boston would have been interesting. Magic played brilliantly in the '86 WCF's, but KAJ was outplayed by Sampson. (Sampson or Hakeem outplaying Moses was unlikely.)

'87 easily. They could have won a title with Michael Thompson playing full-time.

'88 of course. There is no way Moses would have put up a 13-4 .414 Finals like Kareem did, nor a game seven of 4-3 on .286 shooting, either.

'89 with Magic injured in the Finals, not likely, but certainly more probable.

At least 7 and as many as 9.

[Helix]

Swap Moses with KAJ in the entire decade of the 80's, and with all other player personnel being the same...how many rings does Moses win?

'80 for sure .(Hell, they won the clinching game six on the road without Kareem.)

'81 for sure (he single handedly beat LA in the first round with a 40-42 team, and then took that same cast of clowns to a game six loss against a good, but not great, Celtics team.)

'82 for sure

'83 for sure

'84 most likely (even with Kareem playing poorly the Lakers nearly won that series.)

'85 for sure (easily.)

'86 most likely, but Boston would have been interesting. Magic played brilliantly in the '86 WCF's, but KAJ was outplayed by Sampson. (Sampson or Hakeem outplaying Moses was unlikely.)

'87 easily. They could have won a title with Michael Thompson playing full-time.

'88 of course. There is no way Moses would have put up a 13-4 .414 Finals like Kareem did, nor a game seven of 4-3 on .286 shooting, either.

'89 with Magic injured in the Finals, not likely, but certainly more probable.

At least 7 and as many as 9.


Pretty much agree except for '86. No way they beat that Celtic team that year.

[K Xerxes]

Your point? Put prime Kareem on the Lakers through the 80s decade and I'd think they're pretty much a lock to win every year.

[LAZERUSS]

Pretty much agree except for '86. No way they beat that Celtic team that year.

Probably not, but the fact remains, that LA was stunned by Houston, and in a series in which both Sampson and Hakeem outplayed Kareem. And given the fact that the Lakers SHOULD have beaten Boston in '84 (even BIRD admitted that those Lakers should have SWEPT Boston), and that the Lakers easily beat Boston in both '85 and '87...I like their match-ups. Cooper was the "Bird-stopper", and Boston had no answer for Magic and Worthy.

[LAZERUSS]

Your point? Put prime Kareem on the Lakers through the 80s decade and I'd think they're pretty much a lock to win every year.


Agreed. A 70-74 Kareem would have been a monster.

And a 60-69 Wilt would likely have went 10-0 as well.

[houston]

Moses was a headcase behind the scene who demanding his touches plus Kareem a more skillful player than him. If you replace with Cap on that Laker squad it would be a mess.

Moses was notorious blackhole and only work hard when he getting feed the ball.

[ArbitraryWater]

What I was able to take away from this is Kareem >> Wilt

[LAZERUSS]

Moses was a headcase behind the scene who demanding his touches plus Kareem a more skillful player than him. If you replace with Cap on that Laker squad it would be a mess.

Moses was notorious blackhole and only work hard when he getting feed the ball.

Moses with Magic...not an issue. Magic would have been happy to defer just as he did with Kareem. And an 80's KAJ couldn't rebound, to save his life. His defense against Moses in that decade was non-existent.

[Helix]

Probably not, but the fact remains, that LA was stunned by Houston, and in a series in which both Sampson and Hakeem outplayed Kareem. And given the fact that the Lakers SHOULD have beaten Boston in '84 (even BIRD admitted that those Lakers should have SWEPT Boston), and that the Lakers easily beat Boston in both '85 and '87...I like their match-ups. Cooper was the "Bird-stopper", and Boston had no answer for Magic and Worthy.


A reasonably healthy Walton was what really put Boston over the top in '86. '87 would have been really interesting if the Celtics had been healthy, although I DO think the Lakers would have eked out the win. That '86 Celtic team is the only team I've seen that might have beaten the '67 Sixers in a seven game series.

[LAZERUSS]

What I was able to take away from this is Kareem >> Wilt

Moses >>> KAJ.

[ArbitraryWater]

Your boy isn't top 3.. bring on the essays

[Helix]

What I was able to take away from this is Kareem >> Wilt


Maybe to you, but not to me. I saw Wilt play numerous times from '63 to '73 and Kareem his whole career, and simply put.........Wilt was better.

[LAZERUSS]

Your boy isn't top 3.. bring on the essays

Says who?

ESPN: Wilt 2nd
Slam: Wilt 2nd

Bill Russell: Wilt
Jerry West: Wilt
Larry Bird: Wilt
Barry: Wilt
KAJ: Wilt

The list is endless. Only a complete idiot would have Wilt at less than #3, and many have him at #1.

[Helix]

Your boy isn't top 3.. bring on the essays


You're right, he isn't top 3..........he's top 2. Him and Jordan. Kareem's a notch below those two.

[K Xerxes]

Says who?

ESPN: Wilt 2nd
Slam: Wilt 2nd

Bill Russell: Wilt
Jerry West: Wilt
Larry Bird: Wilt
Barry: Wilt
KAJ: Wilt

The list is endless. Only a complete idiot would have Wilt at less than #3, and many have him at #1.

Out of interest, who out of Jordan, Kareem and Russell (or others) do you think has no case over Wilt, if any even do? Although you're obviously a huge Wilt fan, I don't ever recall you saying that Wilt is the outright GOAT?

[LAZERUSS]

Out of interest, who out of Jordan, Kareem and Russell (or others) do you think has no case over Wilt, if any even do? Although you're obviously a huge Wilt fan, I don't ever recall you saying that Wilt is the outright GOAT?

I do now have Wilt at #1, then MJ, Magic, and Russell. Kareem drops to a different level at #5.

But, I can see cases for MJ, Magic, and Russell over Wilt. BUT, I would find it difficult to have ALL three of them ranked ahead of Wilt at the same time.

But while KAJ's career resume looks great, it was inflated by the presence of Magic, who I honestly believe to have been a greater player.


Now, a PEAK Kareem, from midway in '69-70, thru the entire 70-71 regular and post-season, and thru the 71-72 regular season...I could go #2 or #3. But overall career? Nope.

BTW, Shaq is 6th, Duncan 7th, Lebron 8th, Kobe 9th, and Bird at #10...

Then Moses, Oscar, Hakeem, West, and Dr J, in any order.

[dankok8]

Replace Kareem with Moses and the Lakers get worse in defense, playmaking from the post, and scoring (apart from '82...). LAZ overrates the crap out of Moses. I think LA would win 2-3 titles with Moses. In 1982 and 1983 Moses was better than Kareem and in 1988 he could come for the ride. Otherwise, no...

1979

His Rockets get upset by the Atlanta Hawks. Moses averages 24.5 ppg and 20.5 rpg but on 43.9% shooting. Kareem meanwhile dominates against the much stronger Nuggets team and the champion Sonics.

1980

His Rockets get swept by the Celtics. He averages 25.0 ppg and just 11.0 rpg, a far cry from Kareem's obliteration of the Sonics and Sixers.

1981

He has a terrific run but a pretty pedestrian finals. 22.2 ppg, 16.3 rpg on just 40.3% shooting.

1982

His team gets upset by the Sonics. He averages 24.0 ppg and 17.7 rpg but shoots just 43.3% and gets decisively outplayed by Sikma (who has 30 points and 17 rebounds) in the deciding Game 3.

1983

Amazing run! :bowdown:

1984

His 3rd seed Sixers lost to the Nets in Round 1. Moses averages 21.4 ppg and 13.8 rpg on just 45.8% shooting. Defensive stalwart Buck Williams outplays him in several games.

1985

Makes the ECF but loses to the Celtics in 5 games. Averages 18.2 and 13.4 rpg but on just 40.5% shooting. Kareem then puts up 25.7 ppg, 9.0 rpg, and 5.2 apg on 60.4% shooting and win the Finals MVP.

...

Despite playing on some decent squads he never even makes it past Round 1 again in his career after 1985 and makes only one more 2nd Team All-NBA in 1987.

[LAZERUSS]

Replace Kareem with Moses and the Lakers get worse in defense, playmaking from the post, and scoring (apart from '82...). LAZ overrates the crap out of Moses. I think LA would win 2-3 titles with Moses. In 1982 and 1983 Moses was better than Kareem and in 1988 he could come for the ride. Otherwise, no...

1979

His Rockets get upset by the Atlanta Hawks. Moses averages 24.5 ppg and 20.5 rpg but on 43.9% shooting. Kareem meanwhile dominates against the much stronger Nuggets team and the champion Sonics.

1980

His Rockets get swept by the Celtics. He averages 25.0 ppg and just 11.0 rpg, a far cry from Kareem's obliteration of the Sonics and Sixers.

1981

He has a terrific run but a pretty pedestrian finals. 22.2 ppg, 16.3 rpg on just 40.3% shooting.

1982

His team gets upset by the Sonics. He averages 24.0 ppg and 17.7 rpg but shoots just 43.3% and gets decisively outplayed by Sikma (who has 30 points and 17 rebounds) in the deciding Game 3.

1983

Amazing run! :bowdown:

1984

His 3rd seed Sixers lost to the Nets in Round 1. Moses averages 21.4 ppg and 13.8 rpg on just 45.8% shooting. Defensive stalwart Buck Williams outplays him in several games.

1985

Makes the ECF but loses to the Celtics in 5 games. Averages 18.2 and 13.4 rpg but on just 40.5% shooting. Kareem then puts up 25.7 ppg, 9.0 rpg, and 5.2 apg on 60.4% shooting and win the Finals MVP.

...

Despite playing on some decent squads he never even makes it past Round 1 again in his career after 1985 and makes only one more 2nd Team All-NBA in 1987.

Of course, from '80 thru '89....MAGIC.

Nuff said.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Jlauber's alt party on this one, gang's all here :roll:

Give it a rest already... Kareem > Wilt, in terms of career and peak, even though peak/prime is extremely close, it's Jabbar still; most people would agree and say the same... Moses? Well he's underrated but certainly not better than Kareem :facepalm
Again, give it a rest :rolleyes: You ain't changing that, in fact you only make it "worse" :facepalm


Replace Kareem with Moses and the Lakers get worse in defense, playmaking from the post, and scoring (apart from '82...). LAZ overrates the crap out of Moses. I think LA would win 2-3 titles with Moses. In 1982 and 1983 Moses was better than Kareem and in 1988 he could come for the ride. Otherwise, no...

1979

His Rockets get upset by the Atlanta Hawks. Moses averages 24.5 ppg and 20.5 rpg but on 43.9% shooting. Kareem meanwhile dominates against the much stronger Nuggets team and the champion Sonics.

1980

His Rockets get swept by the Celtics. He averages 25.0 ppg and just 11.0 rpg, a far cry from Kareem's obliteration of the Sonics and Sixers.

1981

He has a terrific run but a pretty pedestrian finals. 22.2 ppg, 16.3 rpg on just 40.3% shooting.

1982

His team gets upset by the Sonics. He averages 24.0 ppg and 17.7 rpg but shoots just 43.3% and gets decisively outplayed by Sikma (who has 30 points and 17 rebounds) in the deciding Game 3.

1983

Amazing run! :bowdown:

1984

His 3rd seed Sixers lost to the Nets in Round 1. Moses averages 21.4 ppg and 13.8 rpg on just 45.8% shooting. Defensive stalwart Buck Williams outplays him in several games.

1985

Makes the ECF but loses to the Celtics in 5 games. Averages 18.2 and 13.4 rpg but on just 40.5% shooting. Kareem then puts up 25.7 ppg, 9.0 rpg, and 5.2 apg on 60.4% shooting and win the Finals MVP.

...

Despite playing on some decent squads he never even makes it past Round 1 again in his career after 1985 and makes only one more 2nd Team All-NBA in 1987.

:applause: Always on point.

[LAZERUSS]

Jlauber's alt party on this one, gang's all here :roll:

Give it a rest already... Kareem > Wilt, in terms of career and peak, even though peak/prime is extremely close, it's Jabbar still; most people would agree and say the same... Moses? Well he's underrated but certainly not better than Kareem :facepalm
Again, give it a rest :rolleyes: :facepalm



:applause: Always on point.

Very FEW "expert" polls have KAJ ranked ahead of Wilt. And for good reason...he simply was not better than Wilt at anything (ok, he could shoot FTs better, but even then, Wilt OUTSCORED KAJ from the FT in their careers, by almost 100 per season.) A prime Wilt was a considerably greater scorer; at his best, a considerably more efficient shooter (and that margin is greater when you factor in league average FG%'s), a MUCH better rebounder, a considerably better passer; a considerably better defender, and a MUCH greater shot-blocker.

Also, Wilt was losing to GREAT teams, (and generally just barely) his entire career (TEN of his 11 post-season losses were against the eventual champion, including the Celtic Dynasty SEVEN times, the LOADED '70 and '73 Knicks, twice, and the 70-71 Bucks, once. Of course...he TRASHED that "greatest dynasty" in one season; he slaughtered that HOF-laden Knick team TWICE; and he also buried KAJ's '72 Bucks.

Furthermore, go ahead an compare the play of both a PEAK Kareem (clearly '70 thru '72), with the centers that a PRIME Chamberlain faced in the 60's. Kareem was NOWHERE NEAR as dominant against them.

And finally...KAJ played FOUR seasons IN the Wilt-era...and never approached the VAST MAJORITY of Wilt's records (and Wilt's MANY playoff records, either.)

Sorry... Wilt >>>> KAJ.

[houston]

Moses with Magic...not an issue. Magic would have been happy to defer just as he did with Kareem. And an 80's KAJ couldn't rebound, to save his life. His defense against Moses in that decade was non-existent.


kareem wayyyyy better than moses

[LAZERUSS]

kareem wayyyyy better than moses


You must be thinking of Hakeem.