if Duncan chokes again. was it worth sacrificing mpg, points, money to play longer?

[kennethgriffin]

think of all those 1st team all nba's he could have had

think of all those mvp votes he could have got

think of all that money he might have earned

think of all those years parker had control of his team

think of all those benches on back2backs

think of all those 15-17ppg seasons

think of all the critics saying hes not a top 5 player every year since 2008

was it worth giving away his team? giving away numbers? giving away money? giving away respect?

if since he gave away his team to finals mvp tony parker. nothings happened since then?

so he played longer and got dragged to 2 more finals by tony and manu. so what.... if he loses. it was all for nothing


those knees could probably go another 2-3 years too. but he still will not have gotten his max potential like kobe did

kobe went out a fighting champion. he went out a top 3 player.

kobe was averaging 28/6/5 when he went down with his career ending achilles injury.

this is why kobe has 5 and duncan has 4... kobe knows how rare it is to make the finals.

if kobe was in this finals on this spurs team. he wouldnt be clanking free throws in the 4th q this year or choking layups to win it all last year

duncan is just too laid back. he doesnt have the killer instinct or desire to take on the pressure. he wants to win as a 16ppg role player. that wont beat miami.

sorry. it wasnt worth it.

[fpliii]

Two things:

1) I don't think he cares about arbitrary stats or accolades, just wants to win more championships as a key cog (same with Kobe and other guys).
2) Kobe's not done yet IMO, so he didn't "go out fighting" yet. I'm sure he will when he does hang em up, though.

[6 for 24]

Another thought-provoking post!

It is a shame that Kobe got injured two years ago, because he was having his best season yet, leading a team of journeymen and D-league players to title contention. I can't even remember the names of anyone on those "scrubby" teams, but with Kobe, all of the sportwriters had already penned them in for the championship. Why, who here didn't think the Lakers would sweep the Spurs in round #1 until Kobe went down?

But have no fear, OP, as I hear that Kobe has been working hard on his rehabilitation and is set to destroy the league in 2015. Armed with a new coach (I am secretly praying for Coach Kobe) and a rejuvinated Pau Gasol, the Lakers have got to be considered the championship favorites once again!

Warmest regards,

Ayotunde Ndiaye

[kennethgriffin]

Two things:

1) I don't think he cares about arbitrary stats or accolades, just wants to win more championships as a key cog (same with Kobe and other guys).
2) Kobe's not done yet IMO, so he didn't "go out fighting" yet. I'm sure he will when he does hang em up, though.


if kobe comes back and midway through the season isnt averaging 25 ppg or anything close.. i think he retires

kobe will go down firing... no way he EVER takes a duncan role

[Akrazotile]

Two things:

1) I don't think he cares about arbitrary stats or accolades, just wants to win more championships as a key cog (same with Kobe and other guys).
2) Kobe's not done yet IMO, so he didn't "go out fighting" yet. I'm sure he will when he does hang em up, though.


Didnt read OP but holy fukk this part was funny :roll:

[kennethgriffin]

Didnt read OP but holy fukk this part was funny :roll:

even i know theres an 80% chance kobes finished... he looked like a shell of his former self in the games he played before breaking his leg... if he comes back after all these months of rehab and still cant move out there... hes finished.. maybe at most he needs 2 months under his belt to get back to anything close to normal. but we'l know soon enough. baring another broken leg or serious injury.

i'm interested in finding out. but no problem either way. 5 is enough


would like 6 though

[fpliii]

if kobe comes back and midway through the season isnt averaging 25 ppg or anything close.. i think he retires

kobe will go down firing... no way he EVER takes a duncan role
D'Antoni, in addition to not caring about defense, was a horrible coach. Ran Kobe into the ground just to fight for a meaningless playoff berth. Let's be real, the season was lost early in the year.

Here's the thing. He has two years left on his contract, right? I think the front office needs to make a coaching hire with Kobe's role in mind. You're paying the guy a ton, so you need to get star production from him. I think this means they're going to go back to the triangle, and Kobe's going to spend a lot more time at the three.

I don't know who the coach will be, or who the role players they'll sign will be (we also need a second star, though I don't think we can get Love). But I don't think the Lakers (or Kobe) are willing to spend the next two years sucking.

[kennethgriffin]

D'Antoni, in addition to not caring about defense, was a horrible coach. Ran Kobe into the ground just to fight for a meaningless playoff berth. Let's be real, the season was lost early in the year.

Here's the thing. He has two years left on his contract, right? I think the front office needs to make a coaching hire with Kobe's role in mind. You're paying the guy a ton, so you need to get star production from him. I think this means they're going to go back to the triangle, and Kobe's going to spend a lot more time at the three.

I don't know who the coach will be, or who the role players they'll sign will be (we also need a second star, though I don't think we can get Love). But I don't think the Lakers (or Kobe) are willing to spend the next two years sucking.


i think deep down the lakers are gonna get f*ck all this offseason and lose pau to a higher bidder... kobes gonna be firing from all angles and demand a trade when the teams falls 15-20 games under 500


i'd obviously rather the opposite. but i just somehow see kobe getting sick of this position the lakers are in with jim running the show

i think kobe will hate the new coach again too

i see it being mike dunleavey

i see it already "i'm not here for a slow rebuilding process and waiting on a draft pick.. i only have 2 years left. trade me"

[fpliii]

i think deep down the lakers are gonna get f*ck all this offseason and lose pau to a higher bidder... kobes gonna be firing from all angles and demand a trade when the teams falls 15-20 games under 500


i'd obviously rather the opposite. but i just somehow see kobe getting sick of this position the lakers are in with jim running the show

i think kobe will hate the new coach again too

i see it being mike dunleavey
If things play out that way, would ****ing suck. Brutal as hell.

[joeyjoejoe]

Kobe hasn't been a top 3 player for years

[Rodmantheman]

Another thought-provoking post!

It is a shame that Kobe got injured two years ago, because he was having his best season yet, leading a team of journeymen and D-league players to title contention. I can't even remember the names of anyone on those "scrubby" teams, but with Kobe, all of the sportwriters had already penned them in for the championship. Why, who here didn't think the Lakers would sweep the Spurs in round #1 until Kobe went down?

But have no fear, OP, as I hear that Kobe has been working hard on his rehabilitation and is set to destroy the league in 2015. Armed with a new coach (I am secretly praying for Coach Kobe) and a rejuvinated Pau Gasol, the Lakers have got to be considered the championship favorites once again!

Warmest regards,

Ayotunde Ndiaye

:oldlol:

[K Xerxes]

Duncan still anchors the defense. Kobe has been awful defensively the last couple of years he played.

[Kiddlovesnets]

You mad that DUncan is always ahead of Kobe on all-time ranking?
:rolleyes:

[Real14]

Duncan iz not winning this year but I wouldn't call it a choke I would call it losing to tha better super stacked team.

[Real14]

You mad that DUncan is always ahead of Kobe on all-time ranking?
:rolleyes:
Kobe iz better.

[IMObjective]

Another thought-provoking post!

It is a shame that Kobe got injured two years ago, because he was having his best season yet, leading a team of journeymen and D-league players to title contention. I can't even remember the names of anyone on those "scrubby" teams, but with Kobe, all of the sportwriters had already penned them in for the championship. Why, who here didn't think the Lakers would sweep the Spurs in round #1 until Kobe went down?

But have no fear, OP, as I hear that Kobe has been working hard on his rehabilitation and is set to destroy the league in 2015. Armed with a new coach (I am secretly praying for Coach Kobe) and a rejuvinated Pau Gasol, the Lakers have got to be considered the championship favorites once again!

Warmest regards,

Ayotunde NdiayeHey man, is this really you? https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-yqrNmxUY-YU/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAABQ/YbTSXaqhL4g/s208-p-no/photo.jpg

[Lebronxrings]

daqfuq; if duncan left the spurs he would be putting up scrub numbers. Hes good cuz hes playing with pop and a stacked team. No way he plays like an mvp or 1st team caliber.

[aj1987]

daqfuq; if duncan left the spurs he would be putting up scrub numbers. Hes good cuz hes playing with pop and a stacked team. No way he plays like an mvp or 1st team caliber.
What's up, Cecil?

[T_L_P]

daqfuq; if duncan left the spurs he would be putting up scrub numbers. Hes good cuz hes playing with pop and a stacked team. No way he plays like an mvp or 1st team caliber.

Playing in a system that relies on rest and ball sharing makes you better statistically? Wow, you're such a genius.

If Duncan was on a shitty team and he didn't play defense, his stats would look a lot better.

God damn do you people seriously think Popovich made Duncan or something? The dude wasn't even a good offensive coach during Duncan's prime. He was a defensive master, but do ISH members really understand or care about the nuances of that end of the court? Also, has there ever been a 38-year-old MVP candidate?

[aj1987]

Playing in a system that relies on rest and ball sharing makes you better statistically? Wow, you're such a genius.

If Duncan was on a shitty team and he didn't play defense, his stats would look a lot better.

God damn do you people seriously think Popovich made Duncan or something? The dude wasn't even a good offensive coach during Duncan's prime. He was a defensive master, but do ISH members really understand or care about the nuances of that end of the court? Also, has there ever been a 38-year-old MVP candidate?
Karl Malone would've gotten a couple of votes, if he was on a good team. 38 year old KAJ was 5th in MVP voting in '86.

Also, ignore that dude. I have a feeling that he's Fresh Shit.

[DMAVS41]

You guys act like Duncan plays 20 minutes a game in the regular season.

Dude has averaged 30 minutes per game from 2010 to present in the regular season.

This year he played 74 games and averaged 29 minutes per game.

In the playoffs, he's averaged 34.4 minutes per game from 2010 to present.

This year Duncan is playing 33 minutes per game in the playoffs.



Duncan should have made an all-nba team this year like Van Gundy said last night. In the playoffs so far he's putting up 17/9/2 57% TS...and while his defense has dropped from last year in the playoffs a bit, his offense looks noticeably better overall.

Chokes again?

In two finals games so far he's at 20/13/2 67% TS.


Now, if you are only referring to his choke at the ft line...then yea...he choked big time and deserves blame for that. Really surprised at that.

[Carbine]

A guy chokes now when he misses two free throws with 6 and 1/2 minutes left?

[DMAVS41]

A guy chokes now when he misses two free throws with 6 and 1/2 minutes left?

Yea...actually kind of. But it wasn't all Duncan...it was more kind of the moment after Parker had missed his free throws.

The reason why the six and a half minutes left doesn't matter that much is because everyone playing and watching knew it was a huge part of the game.

Difference in Spurs going up 6 or only being up 2...then Lebron hit that 3 iirc.

[Carbine]

His free throws were the difference between a 4 point lead and a 2 point lead.

I guess anyone who missed an open jumper choked in the last 6 and 1/2 minutes under that guideline. Multiple chokes by each team.

[DMAVS41]

His free throws were the difference between a 4 point lead and a 2 point lead.

I guess anyone who missed an open jumper choked in the last 6 and 1/2 minutes under that guideline. Multiple chokes by each team.

ft's are different. if you can't concede that...then why bother talking?

but if you were watching that game...you'd know how big of a moment that was. again, i said it was a huge moment because Parker had just clanked two.

It was a key moment in the game...I literally just got done watching like 10 minutes ago so it's really fresh.

I don't care what we call it. choke or not. Duncan/Parker missed 4 straight free throws in a clearly huge moment in the game.

6 minutes to go in the 4th qtr is borderline crunch time anyway...lets not act like there is a huge margin for error here.

[T_L_P]

Duncan choked at the line last night, no getting around it.

But it's like last year: missing two Free Throws or one layup does not mean you've choked the year/Playoffs/Finals. To suggest as much is insane.

Kobe didn't choke the 2010 Finals, he choked in game 7, because the overall game was pretty poor. LeBron did choke the 2011 Finals. Duncan did not choke in the 2013 Finals or in last night's game. He choked on some plays, as has everyone.

[Carbine]

A free throw is a great chance to score just like an open jumper is a great chance to score.

No difference to me.

6 and 1/2 minutes is just too far away from the end to start calling one individual play choking.

[BoutPractice]

No one mentions how Duncan was much more dominant on the court today than in almost any other game this season, grabbing 15 rebounds at 37 years old to tie Magic Johnson for all-time playoff double doubles?

He is once again elevating his level of play on the biggest stage. Just like last year...
making mistakes at the end of game doesn't take away the fact Duncan starts playing like a HOFer again whenever the big game starts.

It's precisely because he gets to that level that you start holding him to a new standard.

To put things in perspective... at the same age Tim Duncan is the best player on a Finals team, putting up 21/10 and 18/15 statlines, Hakeem Olajuwon was scoring 10 ppg, Shaq was scoring 12 ppg on the Cleveland Cavaliers, Wilt and Russell were out of the league.

[ninephive]

A free throw is a great chance to score just like an open jumper is a great chance to score.

No difference to me.

6 and 1/2 minutes is just too far away from the end to start calling one individual play choking.
Exactly. Used to, "choking" meant missing an easy shot to win or tie the game at the last second. It makes sense because it's the last shot and if it's a do-or-die moment AND you miss a very makeable shot, then you choked.

Then people started referencing particular missed shots in the last minute of a game. There can arguably still be a debate there, but it becomes much more speculative because the odds are there are going to be MULTIPLE missed shots in the final minute of a game (possibly from both teams). Then you have to start talking about the people from the winning team "choking" as well for any shots they missed (see DWade G6 overtime brick or Lebron's 4th quarter G6 bricks and turnovers in the last minute).

Now we are talking about chokes MIDWAY through the 4th?!?! At this rate, you could extrapolate to 3rd quarter choking. If we're going to redefine the term choking to playing poorly at any given point of the game, then that's fine...but let's go ahead and do it so we can pick apart every play of the game that had a potential impact on the overall outcome (aka EVERY PLAY).

[DMAVS41]

Duncan choked at the line last night, no getting around it.

But it's like last year: missing two Free Throws or one layup does not mean you've choked the year/Playoffs/Finals. To suggest as much is insane.

Kobe didn't choke the 2010 Finals, he choked in game 7, because the overall game was pretty poor. LeBron did choke the 2011 Finals. Duncan did not choke in the 2013 Finals or in last night's game. He choked on some plays, as has everyone.

Oh...totally agree.

this argument with others seems to be one of just semantics. generally people use choking to mean a ton of different things.

here, it was just obvious that those free throws were huge and much bigger than normal ft's in any game...let alone a playoff or finals game.

i don't know what a better word is to describe the Spurs missing 4 straight free throws in a huge moment midway through the 4th qtr in a close finals game.

I'm not hell bent on calling it "choking", but it's something more than just 4 missed free throws. It was a huge moment in the game and everyone knew it.