Who has more IMPACT on the game, Lebron or MJ?

[Derivative]

Who has more overall impact on the game, Lebron or MJ?

Overall impact is consisted of personal scoring, playmaking, game control, defense, critical plays, clutchness, etc...

Statistically, Lebron is probably the most impactful player in history, how does he compare the MJ?

[J Shuttlesworth]

I'd say they have pretty similar levels of impact of the game, maybe slightly higher to LeBron even. MJ's an overall more skilled scorer and man to man defender which is why he's > Bron ATM

[ThatCoolKid]

Obviously Bran, MJ just doesn't have the overall game. Also he clashes with teammates instead of elevating their potential.

[bigkingsfan]

Easier to build a team with Lebron than MJ.

[TheMan]

Who has more overall impact on the game, Lebron or MJ?

Overall impact is consisted of personal scoring, playmaking, game control, defense, critical plays, clutchness, etc...

Statistically, Lebron is probably the most impactful player in history, how does he compare the MJ?
This is gonna turn into a troll thread very fast :facepalm

Can we not mention MJ for like a day or two? Let's just focus on today and when Bron finishes up his career, we can debate where he belongs in the GOAT lists.

[Rodmantheman]

This is gonna turn into a troll thread very fast :facepalm

Can we not mention MJ for like a day or two? Let's just focus on today and when Bron finishes up his career, we can debate where he belongs in the GOAT lists.

agree with this post:cheers:

[navy]

MJ > Lebron

[MagnumT/A]

This is gonna turn into a troll thread very fast :facepalm

Can we not mention MJ for like a day or two? Let's just focus on today and when Bron finishes up his career, we can debate where he belongs in the GOAT lists.

:applause: I think any talk of LeBron's legacy, positive or negative, should at least wait till the finals are over:hammerhead:

[GimmeThat]

Lebron has the most impact on the game as a whole regarding to scoring/play making/ affecting the opponent defense etc.

Jordan has the most impact on the game when he is given the possession. i.e. having the ball in his hand, or guarding the opposing ball handler.

Lebron helps your team win games

Jordan helps you win games

[played0ut]

I think their impact is different.


Lebron makes everything look easy, AND does everything easily-- it's due to his unique physique and constant mismatches. I think his impact is in directly making his team perform better, by great passes, giving them open looks, etc. He works within the FLOW of the game, but he flows so much better than everyone else. Like he's an ocean liner in choppy waters while everyone else is a little sailboat.

That's Scottie's job on the bulls, imo (but in a lesser degree).

Jordan is different. Instead of 'flowing' with the game more efficiently than everyone else like Lebron, he bends the game to his will with sheer intensity and unrelenting offensive game. He disrupts the other team's rhythm by force and makes things happen.






tl;dr?



Lebron essentially always does the right play-- But it'll succeed 9/10 times for him when it'll work 6/10 for everyone else, because of his unique edge (his physique and BBIQ). He's much more efficient than anyone else at playing basic basketball.


Jordan, because of his insane offensive skillset/athleticism, forces the game in his favour due to his ability to essentially makes plays out of nothing almost whenever he wants.


"That guy always makes plays whenever he needs to. - Charles Barkley


Lebron has the most impact on the game as a whole regarding to scoring/play making/ affecting the opponent defense etc.

Jordan has the most impact on the game when he is given the possession. i.e. having the ball in his hand, or guarding the opposing ball handler.

Lebron helps your team win games

Jordan helps you win games

That's a pretty good post.

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron. leBron may have more impact than any other perimeter player in history.

[TheMan]

LeBron. leBron may have more impact than any other perimeter player in history.
Surprising answer from a full blown Bran stan:rolleyes:

[juju151111]

LeBron. leBron may have more impact than any other perimeter player in history.
No no he doesn't.

[KOBE143]

MJ but Kobe has more impact than both tho, on and off the court..

[TheMan]

MJ but Kobe has more impact than both tho, on and off the court..
Colorado criminal court system too...

I just had to, bruh:lol

I like Kobe BTW:cheers:

[KOBE143]

Colorado criminal court system too...

I just had to, bruh:lol

I like Kobe BTW:cheers:

Cool! How can someone hate Kobe? He's too cute and sexy..

:cheers:

[greymatter]

Question of whether you'd rather have a slightly more dominant off/def player versus someone who's a better teammate and more versatile on both ends of the floor.

One thing's for sure, Heat don't lose only 2 Ws as a team if you take away Lebron and replace him with Kukoc and Pete Myers.

[atljonesbro]

Do y'all think the Heat would win 55 games without James?

[Smook A.]

:kobe:

LeBron hasn't even won his 3rd championship yet and people are already saying he's better than Michael Jordan. Seriously go check your god damn brain if you think that. LeBron James still has catching up to do. He has the potential to pass Jordan but it'll be tough and it's definitely not happeneing anytime soon. Even If he does win a championship this year I still don't think he's better than Jordan. Keep in mind, MJ has 2 3-Peats. He could've won more championships if he didn't retire suddenly in 1994.

Most people compare what players have done by their age. I do it by seasons and I think thats the way it should be... Anyway these are their accomplishments and awards in their first 11 seasons. Im doing 11 because this is LeBron's 11th year in the league.

LeBron has won 2 Championships (Possibly 3 this year), 2 Finals MVPs, 2 All-Star MVPs, 4 League MVPs, 10 time All-Star, 5 time NBA All Defensive 1st Team, 8 time All NBA 1st Team, 1 Scoring Title, and Rookie of the Year.

Jordan won 3 Championships, 3 Finals MVPs, 1 All-Star MVP, 3 League MVPs, 9 time All-Star, 6 time NBA All Defensive 1st Team, 8 time All NBA 1st Team, 7 straight Scoring Titles, 3 Steal Titles, Defensive Player of the Year, and Rookie of the Year.

Mike still has more accomplishments even though he "retired" in his 10th season. Now lets look at NBA Finals stats.

LeBron James' - Playoff averages: 48.1 FG%, 33.0 3P%, 75.4 FT%, 8.4 TRB, 6.5 AST, 1.7 STL, 0.9 BLK, 3.4 TOV, 28.0 PPG

Michael Jordan's - Playoff averages: 49.9 FG%, 35.4 3P%, 83.3 FT%, 6.7 TRB, 6.5 AST, 2.3 STL, 1.0 BLK, 3.4 TOV, and 34.4 PPG.

LeBron James' - NBA Finals averages: 44.1 FG%, 28.6 3P%, 73.7 FT%, 9.0 TRB, 7.0 AST, 1.7 STL, 0.6 BLK, 3.8 TOV, and 23.4 PPG.

Michael Jordan's - NBA Finals averages: 52.6 FG%, 41.2 3P%, 80.5 FT%, 6.7 TRB, 7.9 AST, 2.0 STL, 0.8 BLK, 2.6 TOV, and 36.3 PPG.

Jordan clearly has better stats in the playoffs and most importantly the NBA Finals. He was just a better performer. I can't believe Fudge said "LeBron James is the best playoff performer of all-time". I didn't know if he was trolling or just being serious, lol.

[Roundball_Rock]

Better player and greater player are not the same thing. In theory a player could be the best player of all-time at any point. Greatness depends on accumulating a resume, though.


Most people compare what players have done by their age. I do it by seasons and I think thats the way it should be.

Why? LeBron came out raw straight from high school (and impacting his team more than MJ did out of NCAA). Moreover, age is a better indicator of how much longer they have to play. LeBron likely has 4-5 MVP caliber seasons left and he could be playing at an all-star level for 2-3 additional seasons.


Jordan clearly has better stats

MJ, who shot more frequently than anyone in history, will always have better stats than LeBron. The argument for LeBron is not about stats. Frankly, if it is all about stats then Wilt>MJ as does prime KAJ.

[AintNoSunshine]

Colorado criminal court system too...

I just had to, bruh:lol

I like Kobe BTW:cheers:


:roll: :roll: :bowdown:

[kshutts1]

Who has more overall impact on the game, Lebron or MJ?

Overall impact is consisted of personal scoring, playmaking, game control, defense, critical plays, clutchness, etc...

Statistically, Lebron is probably the most impactful player in history, how does he compare the MJ?
Well if Lebron is the "most impactful player in history" then would should assume that he compares to MJ by being better...? So that was a silly question. Glad you made this thread.

Also, stupid thread because anyone that thinks MJ is the GOAT should be basing that on impact... so... yeah. Again, stupid thread.

But basing impact on just stats, Lebron is not even top 5. Ever heard of Wilt or Oscar or Bird or Russell?

[Rubio2Gasol]

Chris Bosh and Rashard Lewis :applause:

[PJR]

It's really splitting hairs, really. But I'll probably go with LeBron.

LeBron showed in Cleveland that he enhances the ability of a mediocre supporting cast offensively like not many can, because of how much of a willing passer he is.

And LeBron brings more versatility on defense than Jordan did.

[juju151111]

Better player and greater player are not the same thing. In theory a player could be the best player of all-time at any point. Greatness depends on accumulating a resume, though.



Why? LeBron came out raw straight from high school (and impacting his team more than MJ did out of NCAA). Moreover, age is a better indicator of how much longer they have to play. LeBron likely has 4-5 MVP caliber seasons left and he could be playing at an all-star level for 2-3 additional seasons.



MJ, who shot more frequently than anyone in history, will always have better stats than LeBron. The argument for LeBron is not about stats. Frankly, if it is all about stats then Wilt>MJ as does prime KAJ.
Wilt doesn't have better stats then Mj. When people talk about greats it's playoffs nobody gives a flying **** a about Regular season.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Dude has a great game and trolls start right in with the Jordan talk. Last night was an AVERAGE playoff game for Jordan, pretty much.

Anti-Jordan trolls like Roundball Rock have been on a tear lately making threads and posts. :oldlol:

[andgar923]

Dude has a great game and trolls start right in with the Jordan talk. Last night was an AVERAGE playoff game for Jordan, pretty much.

Anti-Jordan trolls like Roundball Rock have been on a tear lately making threads and posts. :oldlol:

This

[SamuraiSWISH]

Dude has a great game and trolls start right in with the Jordan talk. Last night was an AVERAGE playoff game for Jordan, pretty much.

Anti-Jordan trolls like Roundball Rock have been on a tear lately making threads and posts. :oldlol:
THIS

MJ averaged 34 ppg in the playoffs for his career. Put up 31 ppg, 11 apg in the Finals. Dropped 41 ppg in the Finals.

LeBron had a fantastic game last night, but seriously stop.

[KungFuJoe]

Man all these basketball newbies who never even watched MJ play need to go get educated.

MJ had WAY more impact on the game than Lebron and it's not even close. Lebron has "moments"...he'll disappear for stretches and then hit a bunch of shots in a row and it's OMG Lebron IS SO GOOD OMG. Jordan was in FULL CONTROL of the entire game from opening tip to final buzzer.

Tell you what...all you Lebron stans come back when Lebron does anything even REMOTELY close to how MJ finished off Utah for his final ring.

Until then, STFU.

Oh...and MJ > Lebron.

[Roundball_Rock]

Cleveland went from 61 wins and the best record in the league to 19 wins and the second worst record in the league without LeBron. Chicago, with MJ being replaced by a D-Leaguer, went from 3rd to 6th in the league in wins, declining from 57 wins to 55 wins. It is obvious which of the two had more impact. How about Cleveland without LeBron in the same year? I will start from 2006, the first year LeBron was an all-NBA first team player.

Cleveland without LeBron

2006: 3-0
2007: 3-1
2008: 0-7
2009: 0-1
2010: 1-5
Total: 7-14

How about Miami?

Miami without LeBron

2011: 1-2
2012: 1-3
2013: 5-1
2014: 2-3
Total: 9-9

Since 2008 LeBron's teams are 10-22 (26 wins over 82 games) without him. The results speak for themselves. LeBron has more impact on his team's results. We saw it again just last week. As soon as LeBron left, Miami collapsed.

[atljonesbro]

Man all these basketball newbies who never even watched MJ play need to go get educated.

MJ had WAY more impact on the game than Lebron and it's not even close. Lebron has "moments"...he'll disappear for stretches and then hit a bunch of shots in a row and it's OMG Lebron IS SO GOOD OMG. Jordan was in FULL CONTROL of the entire game from opening tip to final buzzer.

Tell you what...all you Lebron stans come back when Lebron does anything even REMOTELY close to how MJ finished off Utah for his final ring.

Until then, STFU.

Oh...and MJ > Lebron.
What's with all the MJ stans who use hyperbolic posts rather than facts to back their arguments?

[Just2McFly]

Dude has a great game and trolls start right in with the Jordan talk. Last night was an AVERAGE playoff game for Jordan, pretty much.

Anti-Jordan trolls like Roundball Rock have been on a tear lately making threads and posts. :oldlol:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

35/10 on like god like efficiency is Average?

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b8/b2/43/b8b243ad704038d7952d076b22393185.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

Cleveland went from 61 wins and the best record in the league to 19 wins and the second worst record in the league without LeBron. Chicago, with MJ being replaced by a D-Leaguer, went from 3rd to 6th in the league in wins, declining from 57 wins to 55 wins. It is obvious which of the two had more impact. How about Cleveland without LeBron in the same year? I will start from 2006, the first year LeBron was an all-NBA first team player.

Cleveland without LeBron

2006: 3-0
2007: 3-1
2008: 0-7
2009: 0-1
2010: 1-5
Total: 7-14

How about Miami?

Miami without LeBron

2011: 1-2
2012: 1-3
2013: 5-1
2014: 2-3
Total: 9-9

Since 2008 LeBron's teams are 10-22 (26 wins over 82 games) without him. The results speak for themselves. LeBron has more impact on his team's results. We saw it again just last week. As soon as LeBron left, Miami collapsed.
Agenda exposed. The Cavaliers didn't lose JUST James.

And of course when you lose your best player, the best player in the league, to free agency, like the coward he is ... it's going to leave a massive hole on a team built to his strengths.

LeBron was a one man army, do it all switch blade for the Cavaliers. He wasn't playing championship basketball as a niche guy.

The Cavs had a new coach, defeatist attitude after a depresseing summer, Mo Williams their second best player was injured, as was AV. No Shaq, Jamison, or Delonte West.

Meanwhile the '94 Bulls came off 3x years of confidence building championship experience. A motivated squad looking to prove they weren't the Jordanaires.

BJ Armstrong, and Horace Grant finally stepped up, albeit briefly to an All Star level of play that season. So the 1994 Bulls had 3x All Stars. Then they added Toni Kukoc as significant fire power off the bench.

They won 55 games, with little expectations. Got bounced in the 2nd round. With the GOAT?

They win 72 games, 69 games, 62 games, and 3-Peat for the SECOND TIME. We really acting like 2nd round of playoffs, and out is special?

Joe Johnson must be Scottie Pippen level player. Hell, if LeBron were to have had a season ending injury. Wade being forced to play, without the luxury of resting up for the playoffs ... Him and Bosh could quite easily win 50+ games in the East, and make the 2nd round of the playoffs.

:oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

The Cavaliers didn't lose JUST James.

Cleveland without LeBron

2006: 3-0
2007: 3-1
2008: 0-7
2009: 0-1
2010: 1-5
Total: 7-14

How about Miami?

Miami without LeBron

2011: 1-2
2012: 1-3
2013: 5-1
2014: 2-3
Total: 9-9


They won 55 games, with little expectations. Got bounced in the 2nd round. With the GOAT?

Bounced in the 2nd round, in 6 games instead of 7. :lol at how MJ fans constantly revise--and this case even erase--history to prop up their "clear GOAT."


Hell, if LeBron were to have had a season ending injury. Wade being forced to play, without the luxury of resting up for the playoffs ... Him and Bosh could quite easily win 50+ games in the East, and make the 2nd round of the playoffs.

That is speculation--and very odd speculation at that. The Heat with LeBron won 54 games this year. You are arguing, in essence, that the Heat could replace LeBron and basically not skip a beat.

What we do know is LeBron's teams consistently fall off the map without him. That is not speculation, that is proven fact. He has more impact on the game than any perimeter player in history. Why are you :mad: about it? LeBron out of high school had more impact (17 wins to 35) than MJ did out of Dean Smith's UNC (27 wins to 38 despite having a 20+ ppg "second option") MJ is not #1 in every category and the #1 answer to every ISH question. :oldlol:

[TheReal Kendall]

From watching both players play I gotta go with MJ

[j3lademaster]

Obviously Bran, MJ just doesn't have the overall game. Also he clashes with teammates instead of elevating their potential.Actually, that's Lebron. MJ can be the primary ball handler or be one of the best off-ball players ever. Want to know the main difference between Lebron and MJ? When Lebron joined the Heat, Bosh and Wade had to change their games to accommodate him; when Pippen came into his own, MJ was able to change his own game to accommodate Pippen and let him grow. Before Pippen became the all-time great we know and love now? MJ put up 33/8/8/3 off .614 ts and dragged a Cavs-esque team to the 2nd round of the playoffs. And this guy doesn't have an overall game. Wow. Give me a break. Also the weak batch of bigs in this era is allowing guys like Melo, Lebron, etc to not get out-rebounded when they play the 4.

[BlkMambaGOAT]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

35/10 on like god like efficiency is Average?

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b8/b2/43/b8b243ad704038d7952d076b22393185.jpg
Jordan's avgs during '91 Finals vs Lakers(6 games)
31.2 PPG 6.6 RPG 11.4 APG FG%:55.8, 3FG%: 50, FT%: 84.8

http://cdnl.complex.com/mp/620/400/80/0/bb/1/ffffff/829787d1a0f31b1caabb09c27beac2dc/images_/assets/CHANNEL_IMAGES/SPORTS/2013/02/the-best-michael-jordan-memes/meme17_483085.jpg

I wonder how much of Bran's d!ck you'd suck if he got 31/7/11 on 58% shooting last night.

[Real14]

http://500daysasunder.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/screen-shot-2013-05-08-at-3-54-36-pm.png

[poido123]

Forget MJ, how about passing Bird first?

[BlkMambaGOAT]

Forget MJ, how about passing Glen Rice first?
Fixed.

[poido123]

Fixed.


:lol

So that would mean, not the best player to play for the Heat? Oh ohhhh :D

[Real14]

Fixed.
:roll:

[BlkMambaGOAT]

:lol

So that would mean, not the best player to play for the Heat? Oh ohhhh :D
Lebron has time he's only 30. By the time he retires he'll be 2nd to Alonzo Mourning which in it of itself is an achievement.:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Cheers to Lebron's greatness.

[bizil]

Both of these guys are epic all around players. MJ is a great scorer who's also a great rebounder, defender, and passer. Bron is a great passer-facilitator who's also a great rebounder, defender, and scorer. One thing u can't teach is size and Bron's size allows him to play and defend four positions in a very effective manner. As great as MJ is, he doesn't have that kind of versatility due to size. But u also can't teach MJ's killer instinct scoring the rock. This is something that MJ and Kobe for that matter have CLEARLY over Lebron. Imagine Magic or Bird with freak athletic ability! In many ways, u are seeing the results of that in LeBron. I think I would lean to MJ due to his will scoring the rock and his epic scoring skillset, but Bron is more versatile and makes his teammates a bit better. So in that sense, u could easily take Lebron. When it gets down to MJ, Bron, Magic, Bird, Kobe, and Big O, it can be like splitting hairs at times. But in a draft, Bron might be the first pick because he can fill more holes than basically any player EVER! So no matter what team picks first, u can pretty much plug Bron in there if they need anything from PG-PF.

[mehyaM24]

lebron dominated the so called best scorer (2012) and beat an alltime great team with THE greatest gm 7 in finals history.

ill take that guy

[Just2McFly]

Jordan's avgs during '91 Finals vs Lakers(6 games)
31.2 PPG 6.6 RPG 11.4 APG FG%:55.8, 3FG%: 50, FT%: 84.8

http://cdnl.complex.com/mp/620/400/80/0/bb/1/ffffff/829787d1a0f31b1caabb09c27beac2dc/images_/assets/CHANNEL_IMAGES/SPORTS/2013/02/the-best-michael-jordan-memes/meme17_483085.jpg

I wonder how much of Bran's d!ck you'd suck if he got 31/7/11 on 58% shooting last night.

Again, Lebron just got 35/10 on 64% shooting from the field 100% from three and 80% from the line..... that's not average for anyone.

[nathanjizzle]

is this some kind of sick joke of a thread. lebron is seriously overrated at this point it makes me puke.

[GODbe]

Kobe. Guys like LeBald, Air F@ggot have/had teams that could make and win the finals whilst having a 55-60+ win record in the regular season.

Lakers without Kobe = one of the worst teams in the league.

I don't see what impact those other two have except shameless stat padding.

[nathanjizzle]

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/sick/throw-up.gif

[Straight_Ballin]

Bron would have to 3 peat, leave the game of basketball, then comeback and 3 peat again and then he would have to win another ring after that as the man in order to make up for not being perfect in all finals appearances, the collusion, and quitting on the Cavs.


Good luck with that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bron would have to 3 peat, leave the game of basketball, then comeback and 3 peat again

Or he could decide not to quit 2 days before training camp and 4peat--something only Russell has done as the best player...

[funnystuff]

Jordan's avgs during '91 Finals vs Lakers(6 games)
31.2 PPG 6.6 RPG 11.4 APG FG%:55.8, 3FG%: 50, FT%: 84.8

http://cdnl.complex.com/mp/620/400/80/0/bb/1/ffffff/829787d1a0f31b1caabb09c27beac2dc/images_/assets/CHANNEL_IMAGES/SPORTS/2013/02/the-best-michael-jordan-memes/meme17_483085.jpg

I wonder how much of Bran's d!ck you'd suck if he got 31/7/11 on 58% shooting last night.
How dumb are you?

He got 30/10/3 on 64% shooting, 100% from 3 and 80% from the line.


"Last night" :rolleyes: , must have not watched the game.

[Calabis]

Or he could decide not to quit 2 days before training camp and 4peat--something only Russell has done as the best player...

Damn dude everyday you try your best to diminish Jordan, without ever seeing the guy actually play. Jordan was not as ball dominant as Lebron(stat sheet filler). The only time he was in his career he put up 10 triple doubles in 11 games and 7 in a row. He finished 32/8/8. Jordan in playoffs had more impact on the game than Lebron......with that said, Lebron has the most impact on the game, I have seen since Jordan, when it comes to perimeter guys.

[Trollsmasher]

MJ has losing record without Pippen... How can he have more impact than LeBron when he cant even win a game by himself?:confusedshrug:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Literally no argument for Jordan in this debate.

[Warfan]

Mj has the greater impact but bran is probably the 2nd best ever in terms of impact, atleast among perimeter players. He can dominate and control the game inside and out, threat in transition and is a huge part in anchoring the heats defense


MJ has losing record without Pippen... How can he have more impact than LeBron when he cant even win a game by himself?:confusedshrug:

:facepalm

[GimmeThat]

http://cdnl.complex.com/mp/620/400/80/0/bb/1/ffffff/829787d1a0f31b1caabb09c27beac2dc/images_/assets/CHANNEL_IMAGES/SPORTS/2013/02/the-best-michael-jordan-memes/meme17_483085.jpg


I wonder if it has something to do with the high variance of salary.

This is like a semi-hyper inflation lesson.

Just saying.

[LeBird]

Actually, that's Lebron. MJ can be the primary ball handler or be one of the best off-ball players ever. Want to know the main difference between Lebron and MJ? When Lebron joined the Heat, Bosh and Wade had to change their games to accommodate him; when Pippen came into his own, MJ was able to change his own game to accommodate Pippen and let him grow. Before Pippen became the all-time great we know and love now? MJ put up 33/8/8/3 off .614 ts and dragged a Cavs-esque team to the 2nd round of the playoffs. And this guy doesn't have an overall game. Wow. Give me a break. Also the weak batch of bigs in this era is allowing guys like Melo, Lebron, etc to not get out-rebounded when they play the 4.

:lol what a pile of dung.

If there is one player whose team has had to accommodate him, it's Jordan. There's only a hue's amount of difference between Jordan that debuted, Jordan in 91 and Jordan in 97. He only differed as time (and forcing the triangle on him) made it so that he couldn't jack up 30 shots a night. Otherwise, you won't find a bigger individualistic player in the NBA.

Although I tend to argue against Jordan on these boards (because his stans are unbearable) I always maintain that because of what he did, the talent he had and the things he won he's in the GOAT conversation. But he's probably one of the worst players you can have in terms of team impact. He couldn't have been luckier to get a right hand man like Scottie who willingly did all the dirty things MJ didn't/couldn't do and whose all-round game allowed him to adjust as the need arose. Jordan played the same way, his way, regardless.

Take another example: Rodman. In Dennis, Jordan got the GOAT rebounder who was basically a passenger on offense, instead of C or a PF that demanded the ball and hence more possessions which would have meant less scoring for Jordan. If Jordan played with a Shaq, there would have been chemistry problems.

Out of all the GOAT candidates, he's probably the least effective in terms of being a net positive for a team. He can take a team to an elite level as long as it didn't disrupt his play. For Jordan was a great player on an individual level: amazing offensive threat and mainly an incredible 1v1 defender because of his indefatigable desire.

Lebron on the other hand can be both an individual force and a team crutch as the need arises and he's gotten better and better at handling both. He can score at will when necessary as well as being a proper PG and getting others involved. He can mark out the opposition's best player or anchor the defense on the perimeter.

I said it last year: Lebron is already a better player than Jordan ever was; it's just a matter of achievements that need to garnered in order for him to have a greater legacy than Jordan. That'll probably happen too.

[riseagainst]

:lol what a pile of dung.

If there is one player whose team has had to accommodate him, it's Jordan. There's only a hue's amount of difference between Jordan that debuted, Jordan in 91 and Jordan in 97. He only differed as time (and forcing the triangle on him) made it so that he couldn't jack up 30 shots a night. Otherwise, you won't find a bigger individualistic player in the NBA.

Although I tend to argue against Jordan on these boards (because his stans are unbearable) I always maintain that because of what he did, the talent he had and the things he won he's in the GOAT conversation. But he's probably one of the worst players you can have in terms of team impact. He couldn't have been luckier to get a right hand man like Scottie who willingly did all the dirty things MJ didn't/couldn't do and whose all-round game allowed him to adjust as the need arose. Jordan played the same way, his way, regardless.

Take another example: Rodman. In Dennis, Jordan got the GOAT rebounder who was basically a passenger on offense, instead of C or a PF that demanded the ball and hence more possessions which would have meant less scoring for Jordan. If Jordan played with a Shaq, there would have been chemistry problems.

Out of all the GOAT candidates, he's probably the least effective in terms of being a net positive for a team. He can take a team to an elite level as long as it didn't disrupt his play. For Jordan was a great player on an individual level: amazing offensive threat and mainly an incredible 1v1 defender because of his indefatigable desire.

Lebron on the other hand can be both an individual force and a team crutch as the need arises and he's gotten better and better at handling both. He can score at will when necessary as well as being a proper PG and getting others involved. He can mark out the opposition's best player or anchor the defense on the perimeter.

I said it last year: Lebron is already a better player than Jordan ever was; it's just a matter of achievements that need to garnered in order for him to have a greater legacy than Jordan. That'll probably happen too.


:roll:

[TheMan]

lebron dominated the so called best scorer (2012) and beat an alltime great team with THE greatest gm 7 in finals history.

ill take that guy
Durant outscored LeBron :confusedshrug: His team dominated, did you not watch the role players go off (Battier, Miller etc)

The Spurs are a very good team but stop pretending Manu, Parker and Tim Ducan weren't better in 07 for example...they're long in the tooth.

I'll take the guy who got the job done in the Finals WITHOUT ever needing a game 7 :pimp:

[ImKobe]

MJ has more impact as a scorer and as a perimeter defender, Lebron has more impact as a playmaker.

[TheMan]

:lol what a pile of dung.

If there is one player whose team has had to accommodate him, it's Jordan. There's only a hue's amount of difference between Jordan that debuted, Jordan in 91 and Jordan in 97. He only differed as time (and forcing the triangle on him) made it so that he couldn't jack up 30 shots a night. Otherwise, you won't find a bigger individualistic player in the NBA.

Although I tend to argue against Jordan on these boards (because his stans are unbearable) I always maintain that because of what he did, the talent he had and the things he won he's in the GOAT conversation. But he's probably one of the worst players you can have in terms of team impact. He couldn't have been luckier to get a right hand man like Scottie who willingly did all the dirty things MJ didn't/couldn't do and whose all-round game allowed him to adjust as the need arose. Jordan played the same way, his way, regardless.

Take another example: Rodman. In Dennis, Jordan got the GOAT rebounder who was basically a passenger on offense, instead of C or a PF that demanded the ball and hence more possessions which would have meant less scoring for Jordan. If Jordan played with a Shaq, there would have been chemistry problems.

Out of all the GOAT candidates, he's probably the least effective in terms of being a net positive for a team. He can take a team to an elite level as long as it didn't disrupt his play. For Jordan was a great player on an individual level: amazing offensive threat and mainly an incredible 1v1 defender because of his indefatigable desire.

Lebron on the other hand can be both an individual force and a team crutch as the need arises and he's gotten better and better at handling both. He can score at will when necessary as well as being a proper PG and getting others involved. He can mark out the opposition's best player or anchor the defense on the perimeter.

I said it last year: Lebron is already a better player than Jordan ever was; it's just a matter of achievements that need to garnered in order for him to have a greater legacy than Jordan. That'll probably happen too.
Mike got this ph.aggot so shook he writing salty walls of text:oldlol:

[KungFuJoe]

Lebron SHOULD have choked away last year's finals.

He was god awful in the closing moments of the 4th quarter of game 6...missing easy shots...turning the ball over on drives. It was looking like an EPIC FAIL until old man Allen saved his ass with one of the clutchest threes in the history of the playoffs.

First Lebron bailed to Miami, then he got bailed out by Allen.

His so called impact almost lost them the ring.

MJ's impact meant his teams won it all in less than 7 games.

[LeBird]

Mike got this ph.aggot so shook he writing salty walls of text:oldlol:

How many posts do you have in this thread? Please have your menstrual cycle away from these boards, ta. :cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

Damn dude everyday you try your best to diminish Jordan, without ever seeing the guy actually play.

This is not directed at you per se but I had to say, :oldlol: at MJ fans thinking someone whose SN is "Roundball Rock" (anyone who watched basketball in the 90's knows what it is) and whose favorite player of all-time is Pippen did not watch MJ play. I just Googled Pippen, saw he is top 20-30 all-time and decided to make him my favorite player. :rolleyes:

MJ is #1 all-time in usage, both for the regular season and the playoffs. He also is #1 in FGA--even topping Wilt. :lol


what a pile of dung.

If there is one player whose team has had to accommodate him, it's Jordan. There's only a hue's amount of difference between Jordan that debuted, Jordan in 91 and Jordan in 97. He only differed as time (and forcing the triangle on him) made it so that he couldn't jack up 30 shots a night. Otherwise, you won't find a bigger individualistic player in the NBA.

Although I tend to argue against Jordan on these boards (because his stans are unbearable) I always maintain that because of what he did, the talent he had and the things he won he's in the GOAT conversation. But he's probably one of the worst players you can have in terms of team impact. He couldn't have been luckier to get a right hand man like Scottie who willingly did all the dirty things MJ didn't/couldn't do and whose all-round game allowed him to adjust as the need arose. Jordan played the same way, his way, regardless.

Take another example: Rodman. In Dennis, Jordan got the GOAT rebounder who was basically a passenger on offense, instead of C or a PF that demanded the ball and hence more possessions which would have meant less scoring for Jordan. If Jordan played with a Shaq, there would have been chemistry problems.

Out of all the GOAT candidates, he's probably the least effective in terms of being a net positive for a team. He can take a team to an elite level as long as it didn't disrupt his play. For Jordan was a great player on an individual level: amazing offensive threat and mainly an incredible 1v1 defender because of his indefatigable desire.

Lebron on the other hand can be both an individual force and a team crutch as the need arises and he's gotten better and better at handling both. He can score at will when necessary as well as being a proper PG and getting others involved. He can mark out the opposition's best player or anchor the defense on the perimeter.

I said it last year: Lebron is already a better player than Jordan ever was; it's just a matter of achievements that need to garnered in order for him to have a greater legacy than Jordan. That'll probably happen too.

:bowdown:

Also keep in mind MJ could not function with a traditional PG so he had a SG like Harper or a PG used like a SG in Paxson alongside him in the backcourt (the 1996-1998 Bulls were the only team in the league without a starting PG). MJ could not be MJ, the winner we know, unless he had a point forward like Pippen. How many point forwards exist at any given time? LeBron can function in more scenarios than MJ and his teams suffer more without him than the Bulls did without MJ.

[ArbitraryWater]

"Bulls won 55 games without MJ, only 2 less than with MJ"

REALITY: They were an even better regular season team than with MJ...
MJ in 1993 got back to some of his chucking habbits.

1994:
The arguable GOAT, leader of last 3 title teams, retires...
OBVIOUSLY Chicago would have some trouble finding their mark and rhythm at the start of the season...

Bulls start 4-8 through 12 games.
Then go 50-16, giving them a 54-24 record just 4 games before season's end....
Having sealed their spot as 3rd seed, they go on to sit starters and go 1-3 in their last 4 games..

That is MAJOR.

Basically, without the late season coasting they could/would have won 58 games! (1 MORE than with MJ the previous season)
AND then take into context the season start, having to adapt playing without MICHAEL JORDAN, THE ball dominant player on the team..

I mean, they went 50-16 in the relevant stretch... wow.

Major props to the whole team, Scottie Pippen, and Phil Jackson, who IMO should get just as much praise as Scottie.

Two wins behind the Conference Leader Hawks/Knicks.
The Bulls lost the best player in the league, and were able to reproduce all but two wins.


It's a shame this team was robbed from it's semifinal place.

The infamous Hue Hollins call to save the Knicks in round 2 from going down 2-3 with game 6 @ Chicago... Instead, Bulls tie the series, lose in 7.
Bulls up 86-84, Ed Davis takes a desperate 3 as time runs out, referee calls a foul on the shot, Davis makes all 3 to win the game 87-76...

Yeah I would put all my money on the Bulls beating the Pacers in the ECF. We would have seen a Finals of Houston Rockets vs Chicago Bulls. Even Deal. Who knows who would have come out on top.

[ArbitraryWater]

Agenda exposed. The Cavaliers didn't lose JUST James.

And of course when you lose your best player, the best player in the league, to free agency, like the coward he is ... it's going to leave a massive hole on a team built to his strengths.

LeBron was a one man army, do it all switch blade for the Cavaliers. He wasn't playing championship basketball as a niche guy.

The Cavs had a new coach, defeatist attitude after a depresseing summer, Mo Williams their second best player was injured, as was AV. No Shaq, Jamison, or Delonte West.

Meanwhile the '94 Bulls came off 3x years of confidence building championship experience. A motivated squad looking to prove they weren't the Jordanaires.

BJ Armstrong, and Horace Grant finally stepped up, albeit briefly to an All Star level of play that season. So the 1994 Bulls had 3x All Stars. Then they added Toni Kukoc as significant fire power off the bench.

They won 55 games, with little expectations. Got bounced in the 2nd round. With the GOAT?

They win 72 games, 69 games, 62 games, and 3-Peat for the SECOND TIME. We really acting like 2nd round of playoffs, and out is special?

Joe Johnson must be Scottie Pippen level player. Hell, if LeBron were to have had a season ending injury. Wade being forced to play, without the luxury of resting up for the playoffs ... Him and Bosh could quite easily win 50+ games in the East, and make the 2nd round of the playoffs.

:oldlol:


:biggums: :banghead:

"Bulls Fan"... Nope, MJ Fan first.

[bond10]

Jordan could take over and win a game by himself.

Lebron can't (well not since he became a Heat).

[riseagainst]

MJ is a chucker and only won because he had teammates to amend for his shortcomings. Same with Kobe.

While if you give lebron any decent team, all star player, he will win. Look at what he did with Cleveland. multiple 60 win season and finals appearance with scrubs. Give him any all-star level player who can take a little pressure off lebron and he can win because he's the GOAT.

[PsychoBe]

MJ is a chucker and only won because he had teammates to amend for his shortcomings. Same with Kobe.

While if you give lebron any decent team, all star player, he will win. Look at what he did with Cleveland. multiple 60 win season and finals appearance with scrubs. Give him any all-star level player who can take a little pressure off lebron and he can win because he's the GOAT.

ah, i remember his first title in 2011 as if it was yesterday :applause:

oh wait :roll: :roll: :roll:

[riseagainst]

ah, i remember his first title in 2011 as if it was yesterday :applause:

oh wait :roll: :roll: :roll:

sometimes you win sometimes you lose. Sometimes you make shots, sometimes you miss shots. But if you keep trying you'll make at least half of them.

[PsychoBe]

sometimes you win sometimes you lose. Sometimes you make shots, sometimes you miss shots. But if you keep trying you'll make at least half of them.

it's not an accident that jordan was undefeated in the finals (and never went to a game 7). i can go in depth and tell you how everytime jordan caught the basketball in his sweet spots he'd always make it, or how he'd never allow a defender to bully him away from his spots on the floor, or how he ran the triangle offense to perfection, or how he was the best defender in the passing lanes, or how he always knew his move before he caught the ball to catch the defender on his heels, rather than catch THEN make his move, etc, etc

and i didn't even scratch the surface, but just know that those qualities and more are what made jordan the greatest of all time and is what separates him from the rest.

[riseagainst]

it's not an accident that jordan was undefeated in the finals (and never went to a game 7). i can go in depth and tell you how everytime jordan caught the basketball in his sweet spots he'd always make it, or how he'd never allow a defender to bully him away from his spots on the floor, or how he ran the triangle offense to perfection, or how he was the best defender in the passing lanes, or how he always knew his move before he caught the ball to catch the defender on his heels, rather than catch THEN make his move, etc, etc

and i didn't even scratch the surface, but just know that those qualities and more are what made jordan the greatest of all time and is what separates him from the rest.

Bulls had the better team and the better coach? Ever figure that?

[juju151111]

Bulls had the better team and the better coach? Ever figure that?
Actually Mj won without HCA twice

[greymatter]

As was said earlier:

Jordan needed the right players tailored around his game in order to succeed. Between Pip, Grant, and Rodman, you couldn't ask for guys who better epitomized "utility", "hard-nosed", "dirty work", and "versatile". Pip needs no explanation for what he brought.

Bottom line:

The question of whose impact is greater is contingent upon the makeup of the team around them. It's much easier to build a team around Lebron than MJ, hence under more circumstances, Lebron's impact would be greater.

[greymatter]

Horace Grant's body of work often gets overlooked. He basically did the dirty game sealing/saving hustle plays that tended to be overshadowed by the big baskets that his teammates hit.

--93 ECF gm6 against the Knicks--

Bulls up 1 in the closing seconds. Charles Smith gets right to the basket and gets swatted 3 straight times (got 2 off boards after each of first 2 blocks). First 2 times by Grant, last time by Pip.

-- 93 Finals gm 6 against Suns--

Closing seconds of the game (3.9s) after Bulls went up 1 after via the famous Paxson 3 (off hockey pass from Pip to Grant to Paxson) . KJ gets the ball back after inbounding and loses his man off a screen. Grant picks him up and swats his pullup jumper from the FT line.

The one season (94-95) when Jordan didn't have a quality big to defend/rebound, he got sent packing by none other than the team Grant went to (Orlando). A series in which Grant put up ~18pts/11rbs/60+ fg%. While Shaq and Penny were clearly the 2 best players on that team, Grant was by far the fan favorite because of his hustle and intensity he brought.

That series against Orlando made it blatantly clear that MJ was never going to even sniff another ring unless they did something about their lack of interior defense and rebounding. So what did they do? They went on and took in the league's biggest headcase in Dennis Rodman and it somehow worked out brilliantly. Credit Phil Jackson for being the ATG coach at managing egos.

[LBJ 23]

Jordan could take over and win a game by himself.

Lebron can't (well not since he became a Heat).


This right here is taking over the most critical game of his career and finnish it off in 3 quarters by himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjUUwMlYvsI

[Da_Realist]

That series against Orlando made it blatantly clear that MJ was never going to even sniff another ring unless they did something about their lack of interior defense and rebounding. So what did they do? They went on and took in the league's biggest headcase in Dennis Rodman and it somehow worked out brilliantly. Credit Phil Jackson for being the ATG coach at managing egos.

The Bulls lost to a team with a young Shaq in the middle. And back then he was allowed to stay in the middle. They still took them to 6 games (should have at least been 7 even without being together all year if not for MJ fatigue and missed passes at the end of game 6). Teams like Orlando don't exist today. Take away Shaq, replace him with Hibbert and establish today's rules and I think the Bulls would have at least made the Finals that year. The league was different. Everyone needed interior defense and rebounding back then. Today, Miami can be a subpar rebounding team and still win 2 and possibly 3 titles in a row.

MJ wasn't a bad rebounder. He averaged more offensive rebounds than Lebron does. Defensive rebounds were hard to come by in a league with Barkley, Rodman, Shaq and Hakeem roaming the middle. They seem to fall in your lap more easily today due to rules that keep the lane open.

[Black and White]

Anyone wanna debate this now?

[The-Legend-24]

:roll:

[knicksman]

if its 2 on 2, ill go with bran but 5 on 5 mj/kobe. Bran skills becomes redundant that mj/kobe becomes more valuable. Thats why you need superteams around bran/robertson to win

[veilside23]

Lebron is not even better than Kobe ... OMG! kids

[bond10]

This right here is taking over the most critical game of his career and finnish it off in 3 quarters by himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjUUwMlYvsI

Yes, and I can post videos of Jordan not taking over. Of course this doesn't mean Lebron NEVER takes over, it's just so damn rare.

[Cold soul]

Lebron is not even better than Kobe ... OMG! kids

This man gets it. As for OP question MJ by far not even close.

[turnaroundJ]

if its 2 on 2, ill go with bran but 5 on 5 mj/kobe. Bran skills becomes redundant that mj/kobe becomes more valuable. Thats why you need superteams around bran/robertson to win

This actually makes sense. I think players being "all-around" is too overrated in the NBA.

I mean, Kobe was really good all-around, but his scoring was really beyond excellent, while Bran is excellent at pretty much everything but not exactly a scoring prodigy like some other superstars we've seen in history. Something like a jack-of-all-trades on steroids I guess.

[knicksman]

This actually makes sense. I think players being "all-around" is too overrated in the NBA.

I mean, Kobe was really good all-around, but his scoring was really beyond excellent, while Bran is excellent at pretty much everything but not exactly a scoring prodigy like some other superstars we've seen in history. Something like a jack-of-all-trades on steroids I guess.

All around players are what I call selfish players, they play for stats instead of wins. Thats why the iverson, marbury, robertson are considered cancers. The more you play off ball(thus less assists) the more unstoppable you are. Thats why the best jordan is 2nd 3 peat jordan.

Yeah they are too overrated that even a player who was no ring as the man is considered top 10(robertson)

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

LeBron is an amazing player but its unbelievable how often people overlook the cream-puff conference hes played in. The dude has a higher regular season win percentage than either MJ or Kobe, awesome right? But then you look and see that his teams have a 5-6 series record against 50+ win teams in the playoffs. Whereas MJ's teams were something like 15-6 and Kobe's teams were 20-9 (could be wrong on both figures too lazy to check). I mean I know its a team game and all, but the fact that hes played his whole career in the weakest conference of all time has to mean something.

[turnaroundJ]

LeBron is an amazing player but its unbelievable how often people overlook the cream-puff conference hes played in. The dude has a higher regular season win percentage than either MJ or Kobe, awesome right? But then you look and see that his teams have a 5-6 series record against 50+ win teams in the playoffs. Whereas MJ's teams were something like 15-6 and Kobe's teams were 20-9 (could be wrong on both figures too lazy to check). I mean I know its a team game and all, but the fact that hes played his whole career in the weakest conference of all time has to mean something.

Last I checked there are only 2 conferences.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Last I checked there are only 2 conferences.

Yeah that's totally what I meant. Half-hearted troll attempt.

[Budadiiii]

Last I checked there are only 2 conferences.
Doesn't change a thing. Worst conference of all time.

People give him credit for making the finals instead of flaming out before... yet ignore how easy his competition is.

Then the realistic and intelligent posters call him out for being 2-5 in the finals with massive choke jobs sprinkled in.

And this guy is supposed to be the heir apparent to Michael Jeffrey Jordan? I'd rather eat an infants shitty diaper than listen to this garbage. This ****in' guy is allowed to leap frog 15 people for this conversation? Dudes not even top 15 and he's getting threads made about him being better than Jordan. Do you find that silly or are you a circus clown by trade? Immune to ludacris behavior by low IQ humans. Bozo.

[Soundwave]

Horace Grant's body of work often gets overlooked. He basically did the dirty game sealing/saving hustle plays that tended to be overshadowed by the big baskets that his teammates hit.

--93 ECF gm6 against the Knicks--

Bulls up 1 in the closing seconds. Charles Smith gets right to the basket and gets swatted 3 straight times (got 2 off boards after each of first 2 blocks). First 2 times by Grant, last time by Pip.

-- 93 Finals gm 6 against Suns--

Closing seconds of the game (3.9s) after Bulls went up 1 after via the famous Paxson 3 (off hockey pass from Pip to Grant to Paxson) . KJ gets the ball back after inbounding and loses his man off a screen. Grant picks him up and swats his pullup jumper from the FT line.

The one season (94-95) when Jordan didn't have a quality big to defend/rebound, he got sent packing by none other than the team Grant went to (Orlando). A series in which Grant put up ~18pts/11rbs/60+ fg%. While Shaq and Penny were clearly the 2 best players on that team, Grant was by far the fan favorite because of his hustle and intensity he brought.

That series against Orlando made it blatantly clear that MJ was never going to even sniff another ring unless they did something about their lack of interior defense and rebounding. So what did they do? They went on and took in the league's biggest headcase in Dennis Rodman and it somehow worked out brilliantly. Credit Phil Jackson for being the ATG coach at managing egos.

Ehhh ... maybe, maybe not. The Bulls played a good number of games in the second threepeat with Rodman either AWOL or suspended or injured and still had a ridiculous win percentage as I recall.

The '97 title run for example Bison Dele was taking a lot of Rodman's minutes because Dennis' head was in the clouds. Jordan averaged a whopping 7.9 rpg in those playoffs, versus Rodman's 8.4 rpg.

Even that Orlando series ... Chicago pissed away that first game, they had it in the bag and could have been easily heading back to Chicago up 2-0.

Basketball is a very difficult sport to not play for 18 months and then just show up and start playing ... Jordan played well in 94-95, but was obviously a tier below his usual self especially in crunch time (where fatigue plays a big factor).

To the OP's question ... LeBron is a great player, however the main difference between the two is that Jordan can exert his will on the game and change it. LeBron has a lot more trouble with this, if things are not going his way he defaults to becoming passive.

Jordan wouldn't default. He was fine winning the game any number of ways, if it meant winning ugly and having to go in the post he was fine with that.

[OldSchoolBBall]

That series against Orlando made it blatantly clear that MJ was never going to even sniff another ring unless they did something about their lack of interior defense and rebounding.

My ass. :oldlol: Jordan had played only 20 games of ball after having a 21 month layoff. That Orlando series was VERY winnable, but MJ made some VERY uncharacteristic trunovers down the stretch in one game, and in general was clearly fatigued in the 4th quarters and hence not able to exert his will as much as pre-retirement or in '96/'97. A full season Jordan on that squad beats Orlando, no question in my mind.

[Roundball_Rock]

That series against Orlando made it blatantly clear that MJ was never going to even sniff another ring unless they did something about their lack of interior defense and rebounding.

Exactly. There was one game where Shaq alone had 13-14 offensive rebounds.:lol Orlando had Shaq and an all-star caliber Grant at C and PF; Chicago had Luc Longley at C and a wiry, soft Kukoc playing PF that year. Who do you think had the edge in the paint?

Look at what CHI did after the 95' season: take a gamble on the most volatile player in the league who the Spurs could not fetch anything more than a backup center for in a trade. They knew they needed to remedy their rebounding situation (their best rebounders were a SF and SG in 95') and improve their interior defense, especially since at the time it was assumed the Bulls and Magic would be rivals for the next several years (one reason the Bulls kept so many scrub centers is to have as many fouls available as possible against Shaq). So the Bulls gambled and had the fortune to get the best rebounder of the era and a former 2x DPOY. Jackson, Pippen, Jordan managed to keep him under sufficient control and the rest is history. :bowdown:

It is true the Bulls were an oddity among dynasties in that they did not have a dominant center but they made up for it by having a GOAT level player, another superstar wing player and an all-star caliber PF. They were constructed similarly to today's Miami Heat--except the Bulls had much more depth.

All this nuance is swept under the rug by MJ mythologists who want to make it seem as if MJ won all by himself.

[andgar923]

The Bulls lost to a team with a young Shaq in the middle. And back then he was allowed to stay in the middle. They still took them to 6 games (should have at least been 7 even without being together all year if not for MJ fatigue and missed passes at the end of game 6). Teams like Orlando don't exist today. Take away Shaq, replace him with Hibbert and establish today's rules and I think the Bulls would have at least made the Finals that year. The league was different. Everyone needed interior defense and rebounding back then. Today, Miami can be a subpar rebounding team and still win 2 and possibly 3 titles in a row.

MJ wasn't a bad rebounder. He averaged more offensive rebounds than Lebron does. Defensive rebounds were hard to come by in a league with Barkley, Rodman, Shaq and Hakeem roaming the middle. They seem to fall in your lap more easily today due to rules that keep the lane open.

That's something that is overlooked.

The style of play (long range shooting), open lanes, weaker interior players, soft rules CATER to perimeter rebounding (rebounding in general)

[Jlamb47]

Mj > Lebron on impact

MJ can do much more then Lebron can. Yal act like MJ never put up 30 8 8
He is an all around player he just chooses to attack

[Roundball_Rock]

Mj > Lebron on impact

MJ can do much more then Lebron can. Yal act like MJ never put up 30 8 8
He is an all around player he just chooses to attack

If LeBron retired 2 days before training camp, forcing the Heat to get a D-Leaguer to replace him do you think the Heat would win 52 games next year?

[Jlamb47]

If LeBron retired 2 days before training camp, forcing the Heat to get a D-Leaguer to replace him do you think the Heat would win 52 games next year?

nah maybe about 42-45 wins

Chalmers/Cole
Wade/Allen
Jones/Battier
Lewis/Haslem
Bosh/Anderson

yeah most definetly 45 wins

[Da_Realist]

Ehhh ... maybe, maybe not. The Bulls played a good number of games in the second threepeat with Rodman either AWOL or suspended or injured and still had a ridiculous win percentage as I recall.

The '97 title run for example Bison Dele was taking a lot of Rodman's minutes because Dennis' head was in the clouds. Jordan averaged a whopping 7.9 rpg in those playoffs, versus Rodman's 8.4 rpg.

Including 10 per game during the Atlanta series -- second highest in the series behind Mutombo's 12 per.


To the OP's question ... LeBron is a great player, however the main difference between the two is that Jordan can exert his will on the game and change it. LeBron has a lot more trouble with this, if things are not going his way he defaults to becoming passive.

Jordan wouldn't default. He was fine winning the game any number of ways, if it meant winning ugly and having to go in the post he was fine with that.

Verrrrry good point. One thing that sets MJ apart from most is that he didn't mind winning ugly. He wanted to win more than he feared the criticism of inefficient or bad play. It's why Chicago pulled out a victory against Indiana in game 7 of the 1998 ECF.


"The Pacers took an early 20-8 lead, but Rodman gave Chicago a lift coming off the bench. The Bulls were up by two at halftime, and in the locker room Jordan unleashed a tirade at his teammates for not playing hard enough. In the third quarter, Kukoc played big, hitting threes. But Indiana would not go away, and late in the fourth quarter the game seemed to be slipping away from the Bulls. Jordan in particular looked exhausted, and his shooting reflected it -- he made only nine of twenty-five shots and only ten of fifteen free throws. But he refused to be defeated, here on his home court in a game whose loss would deny his rightful chance to go to the Finals one more time. Exhaustion might affect his jump shot but not his drives, and again and again he drove to the basket. In the huddle, he barked to his teammates, "We are not going to lose this game!" Watching his great plyaer, Phil Jackson saw all the telltale signs of fatigue, and he also saw a great player who simply refused to be defeated. Chuck Daly, who had coached against him for years and then coached him on the Dream Team, had once called him the bionic man because of a career of games like this, in which he became stronger when others around him, many of them younger, were unraveling. "Cut him open," Daly had warned, "and you won't find blood and muscle and sinew, you'll find nothing but wires and electons and circuits".

Jackson knew all too well what Dick Harter was doing, -- putting up a defense that punished Michael every time he went to the basket, not just to stop him but to wear him down and take his legs from him in the fourth quarter, and he understood that Jordan was willing to take the pounding in order to win. It was a small price. It was no longer about talent, it was solely about heart. Later, Jackson edited the videotape of the last six minutes of the game for a film clip to use for the Utah series, because he knew they would face some of the same problems of fatigue, and he wanted to show his team Jordan's willpower in action.

Four times in the final 7:28 of Game Seven an exhausted Jordan simply took the ball and drove right through the heaviest traffic in the lane, trying to draw fouls. Each time he drove he got the call, and he ended up making five of seven free throws. It was one of his great games, spiritually if not artistically."

Another thing to point out, MJ always left it all out on the floor. You never really left the game feeling like should have given more. Detractors point to one game but that's one game out of 1072 regular season and 179 playoff games. That's 0.08% of the time.

[Leroy Jetson]

MJ, because instead of fading in the 4th he is closing.

[TheMan]

Exactly. There was one game where Shaq alone had 13-14 offensive rebounds.:lol Orlando had Shaq and an all-star caliber Grant at C and PF; Chicago had Luc Longley at C and a wiry, soft Kukoc playing PF that year. Who do you think had the edge in the paint?

Look at what CHI did after the 95' season: take a gamble on the most volatile player in the league who the Spurs could not fetch anything more than a backup center for in a trade. They knew they needed to remedy their rebounding situation (their best rebounders were a SF and SG in 95') and improve their interior defense, especially since at the time it was assumed the Bulls and Magic would be rivals for the next several years (one reason the Bulls kept so many scrub centers is to have as many fouls available as possible against Shaq). So the Bulls gambled and had the fortune to get the best rebounder of the era and a former 2x DPOY. Jackson, Pippen, Jordan managed to keep him under sufficient control and the rest is history. :bowdown:

It is true the Bulls were an oddity among dynasties in that they did not have a dominant center but they made up for it by having a GOAT level player, another superstar wing player and an all-star caliber PF. They were constructed similarly to today's Miami Heat--except the Bulls had much more depth.

All this nuance is swept under the rug by MJ mythologists who want to make it seem as if MJ won all by himself.
That's the reason they let BJ Armstrong go and replaced him with a big guard in Ron Harper since Orlando had big guards. The 96 Bulls were specifically built to beat Orlando.

I would love for you to quote the next MJ stan that claims "MJ did it alone"... Of course you need a good team around your best player. Larry had a stacked team, more than the 96 Bulls, yet hardly anyone uses that argument against Bird.

[NustABut]

As great as LeBron is

Clearly MJ had a bigger impact... LeBron needs to shake the whole on and off switch mentality where he switches from aggressive attacker to play maker.

A player that attracts so much attention as LeBron, the plays will make themselves if he stays aggressive.

[DonDadda59]

If MJ had teamed up with the all stars/HOFers from his draft class (let's say Hakeem and Barkley in '89)... not 5, not 6, not 7? :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

If MJ had teamed up with the all stars/HOFers from his draft class (let's say Hakeem and Barkley in '89)... not 5, not 6, not 7? :confusedshrug:

Dadda as lead example for MJ Stans going full retard right now :oldlol:

2012-Wade and Bosh are so comparable to Hakeem and Barkley, right?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/1549ef9f321d6a245b4abec88e25b121/tumblr_moz0rx8lzE1sqv808o1_250.gif

[TheMan]

Dadda as lead example for MJ Stans going full retard right now :oldlol:

2012-Wade and Bosh are so comparable to Hakeem and Barkley, right?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/1549ef9f321d6a245b4abec88e25b121/tumblr_moz0rx8lzE1sqv808o1_250.gif
So 80s/90s stars > today's?
:applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

This man gets it. As for OP question MJ by far not even close.

I'm pretty sure he's joking... You're left alone on the dumbass train "LeBron is still not better than Kobe", kid

[ArbitraryWater]

So 80s/90s stars > today's?
:applause:

Off of what I posted, how did you come to that conclusion?

Just wondering how the brain works among you MJ worshippers :cheers:

[DonDadda59]

Dadda as lead example for MJ Stans going full retard right now :oldlol:

2012-Wade and Bosh are so comparable to Hakeem and Barkley, right?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/1549ef9f321d6a245b4abec88e25b121/tumblr_moz0rx8lzE1sqv808o1_250.gif

Season before Bron turned Bosh and Wade into spot up shooters:

Wade: 27/5/7 (47% FG) [30/5/8 on 49% FG the previous season, 1 championship, 1 finals MVP (highest finals PER ever)]

Bosh: 24/11/2 (52% FG)

[ArbitraryWater]

Season before Bron turned Bosh and Wade into spot up shooters:

Wade: 27/5/7 (47% FG) [30/5/8 on 49% FG the previous season, 1 championship, 1 finals MVP (highest finals PER ever)]

Bosh: 24/11/2 (52% FG)

Ahh so the "Season before"...

And now LeBron is at fault for turning Bosh and Wade into spot up shooters :applause:

>>>>>>>>> Jordan loons

Still hasn't answered the question doe http://forgif.me/system/image/3513/image.gif

[DonDadda59]

Ahh so the "Season before"...

And now LeBron is at fault for turning Bosh and Wade into spot up shooters :applause:

>>>>>>>>> Jordan loons

Y u so mad doe? :confusedshrug:

[Cold soul]

I'm pretty sure he's joking... You're left alone on the dumbass train "LeBron is still not better than Kobe", kid

Lol someone sounds super mad.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's the reason they let BJ Armstrong go and replaced him with a big guard in Ron Harper since Orlando had big guards. The 96 Bulls were specifically built to beat Orlando.

Harper joined the previous year. Harper replaced Myers (as the starting SG), not Armstrong (who was let go after the 95' season and drafted by the Raptors in the expansion draft before winding up in Golden State). The main purpose of getting Harper was to "replace" MJ (to the extent that a GOAT caliber all-time player can be "replaced"), especially MJ's scoring. They lost MJ's 33 ppg in 93' and "replaced" him with a 5 ppg scorer who was not even in the NBA for the previous 2 years. Harper was a 20 ppg scorer his last year with the Clippers in 94' and had been a scorer his entire career; he resurfaced in Chicago as a good defender, as you alluded to, but he was never a scoring threat there. The Harper signing was a recognition that their team got screwed in 94' by having a blank at SG. It is a shame they did not pull off the Hornacek trade at mid-season...if they had Hornacek instead of Myers at SG they surely would have reached the Finals and perhaps 4peated.

You are right, though, that the 96' Bulls were built with Orlando in general and Shaq in particular in mind. No one knew at the time that Shaq would bolt after 96' and that Penny would not last long as an elite player due to injuries.

[knicksman]

comparing bran to jordan is like comparing AI to miller. AI has the mvp because of stats but miller has better career because he can fit with teammates.

[riseagainst]

comparing bran to jordan is like comparing AI to miller. AI has the mvp because of stats but miller has better career because he can fit with teammates.

except AI had heart and that killer instinct and the determination. but otherwise, good comparison.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Harper joined the previous year. Harper replaced Myers (as the starting SG), not Armstrong (who was let go after the 95' season and drafted by the Raptors in the expansion draft before winding up in Golden State). The main purpose of getting Harper was to "replace" MJ (to the extent that a GOAT caliber all-time player can be "replaced"), especially MJ's scoring. They lost MJ's 33 ppg in 93' and "replaced" him with a 5 ppg scorer who was not even in the NBA for the previous 2 years. Harper was a 20 ppg scorer his last year with the Clippers in 94' and had been a scorer his entire career; he resurfaced in Chicago as a good defender, as you alluded to, but he was never a scoring threat there. The Harper signing was a recognition that their team got screwed in 94' by having a blank at SG. It is a shame they did not pull off the Hornacek trade at mid-season...if they had Hornacek instead of Myers at SG they surely would have reached the Finals and perhaps 4peated.

You are right, though, that the 96' Bulls were built with Orlando in general and Shaq in particular in mind. No one knew at the time that Shaq would bolt after 96' and that Penny would not last long as an elite player due to injuries.

Rofl, you guys love overrating the 1994 Bulls, don't you?

Meanwhile, the 1994 Hawks won 56 games, and nobody even remembers them, nor would they consider them championship caliber with the addition of Jeff Hornacek.

[ThePhantomCreep]

MJ is a chucker and only won because he had teammates to amend for his shortcomings. Same with Kobe.

While if you give lebron any decent team, all star player, he will win. Look at what he did with Cleveland. multiple 60 win season and finals appearance with scrubs. Give him any all-star level player who can take a little pressure off lebron and he can win because he's the GOAT.

That Finals appearance came during the all-time shittiest year in a conference that has produced countless shitty seasons. The #1 seed won 53 games FFS.

As for the 60 win seasons, they produced nothing of significance. The instant the Cavs faced a team worth a damn, they folded their tents and went home. That's late-80's Dominque Wilkins territory. In short, LeBron's tenure in Cleveland produced little in the way of meaningful victories, so I fail to see what it is you're crowing about.

Even a super-stacked team, specifically formed to win titles as easily as possible, doesn't always guarantee success with LeBron. 2011 anyone?

[ThePhantomCreep]

:lol what a pile of dung.

If there is one player whose team has had to accommodate him, it's Jordan. There's only a hue's amount of difference between Jordan that debuted, Jordan in 91 and Jordan in 97. He only differed as time (and forcing the triangle on him) made it so that he couldn't jack up 30 shots a night. Otherwise, you won't find a bigger individualistic player in the NBA.

Although I tend to argue against Jordan on these boards (because his stans are unbearable) I always maintain that because of what he did, the talent he had and the things he won he's in the GOAT conversation. But he's probably one of the worst players you can have in terms of team impact. He couldn't have been luckier to get a right hand man like Scottie who willingly did all the dirty things MJ didn't/couldn't do and whose all-round game allowed him to adjust as the need arose. Jordan played the same way, his way, regardless.

Take another example: Rodman. In Dennis, Jordan got the GOAT rebounder who was basically a passenger on offense, instead of C or a PF that demanded the ball and hence more possessions which would have meant less scoring for Jordan. If Jordan played with a Shaq, there would have been chemistry problems.

Out of all the GOAT candidates, he's probably the least effective in terms of being a net positive for a team. He can take a team to an elite level as long as it didn't disrupt his play. For Jordan was a great player on an individual level: amazing offensive threat and mainly an incredible 1v1 defender because of his indefatigable desire.

Lebron on the other hand can be both an individual force and a team crutch as the need arises and he's gotten better and better at handling both. He can score at will when necessary as well as being a proper PG and getting others involved. He can mark out the opposition's best player or anchor the defense on the perimeter.

I said it last year: Lebron is already a better player than Jordan ever was; it's just a matter of achievements that need to garnered in order for him to have a greater legacy than Jordan. That'll probably happen too.

First off, Jordan wasn't responsible for personal decisions. That fell on Jerry Krause. Rodman was a great fit defneisivdlt, but he required no attention on offense, which put more pressure on an aging Jordan to score, which he did. Other starters included Luc Longley and Ron Harper. Neither a major offensive weapon, and both arrived during Jordan's sabbatical. They weren't handpicked to accommodate Jordan. Pippen?

Jordan never played with anyone who went on to much bigger and better things when they left. And he certainly never diminished the few good players he played with. BJ and Grant during their "all-star" seasons in 1994 produced only slightly better numbers than the year before (and they dropped immediately thereafter), and Pippen proved he was a 21-22 ppg scorer and no more with or without MJ.

You can't speculate how Jordan would fare with another monster scorer like Shaq because he never played alongside one. He never diminished a good scorer in Pippen though, certainly not to the extent LeBron has diminished his super buddies in Miami. It's hilarious--LeBron turns a legit 24/11 franchise player in Bosh into a spot-up jump-shooter, but he gets the "unselfish" tag. Jordan and even Kobe maximize their supporting cast's strengths (such as they were) and they're labeled selfish.

[nzahir]

Lebron: Leads team in points, assists, boards, and their best defender.
Jordan: Lead team in points, assists idk really(scottie had a bit more), and scottie was their best defender but mj was still great defender too.

Mj is greater than lbj but lebron had more of an impact to me and had to carry a much bigger load

[diamenz]

First off, Jordan wasn't responsible for personal decisions. That fell on Jerry Krause. Rodman was a great fit defneisivdlt, but he required no attention on offense, which put more pressure on an aging Jordan to score, which he did. Other starters included Luc Longley and Ron Harper. Neither a major offensive weapon, and both arrived during Jordan's sabbatical. They weren't handpicked to accommodate Jordan. Pippen?

Jordan never played with anyone who went on to much bigger and better things when they left. And he certainly never diminished the few good players he played with. BJ and Grant during their "all-star" seasons in 1994 produced only slightly better numbers than the year before (and they dropped immediately thereafter), and Pippen proved he was a 21-22 ppg scorer and no more with or without MJ.

You can't speculate how Jordan would fare with another monster scorer like Shaq because he never played alongside one. He never diminished a good scorer in Pippen though, certainly not to the extent LeBron has diminished his super buddies in Miami. It's hilarious--LeBron turns a legit 24/11 franchise player in Bosh into a spot-up jump-shooter, but he gets the "unselfish" tag. Jordan and even Kobe maximize their supporting cast's strengths (such as they were) and they're labeled selfish.

good point. it's sad to see how much bosh has been knocked back this year. the guy is not a legit 3 point threat - i'd sag off of him even if he was on fire (well, up to a certain point, lol). heat need to run more cutting and high post plays for that cat.

[knicksman]

First off, Jordan wasn't responsible for personal decisions. That fell on Jerry Krause. Rodman was a great fit defneisivdlt, but he required no attention on offense, which put more pressure on an aging Jordan to score, which he did. Other starters included Luc Longley and Ron Harper. Neither a major offensive weapon, and both arrived during Jordan's sabbatical. They weren't handpicked to accommodate Jordan. Pippen?

Jordan never played with anyone who went on to much bigger and better things when they left. And he certainly never diminished the few good players he played with. BJ and Grant during their "all-star" seasons in 1994 produced only slightly better numbers than the year before (and they dropped immediately thereafter), and Pippen proved he was a 21-22 ppg scorer and no more with or without MJ.

You can't speculate how Jordan would fare with another monster scorer like Shaq because he never played alongside one. He never diminished a good scorer in Pippen though, certainly not to the extent LeBron has diminished his super buddies in Miami. It's hilarious--LeBron turns a legit 24/11 franchise player in Bosh into a spot-up jump-shooter, but he gets the "unselfish" tag. Jordan and even Kobe maximize their supporting cast's strengths (such as they were) and they're labeled selfish.

because these kids are idiots. They see assists and they think hes already unselfish when oscar, iverson, marbury also averaged lots of assists yet they were considered cancers.

[diamenz]

because these kids are idiots. They see assists and they think hes already unselfish when oscar, iverson, marbury also averaged lots of assists yet they were considered cancers.

assists should be put into context, also. i mean, lebron gets A LOT of assists from dishing to 3 pt shooters - which really isn't all that impressive to me.

whereas someone like stockton on the other hand would get roughly half of his assists from passes to someone under the basket in a tougher interior era.

not to shit on lebron, but to put things in perspective.

[Soundwave]

The biggest IMPACT on a game that a single player can make is being the difference between a win or a loss.

With Jordan instead of LeBron, that Heat team has three consecutive titles already instead of just two.

No way is MJ getting chumped out of a Finals by Jason Terry, I'm sorry but kids can create whatever fantasy scenario they want there, it ain't happening.

A 29/30 year old MJ on this Heat team would decimate the Spurs led by 38-year-old Duncan and 37 year-old Ginobli too.

[Da_Realist]

Hubie Brown talks about the difference in defense and physicality between today and 70's/80's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JttE4UT74k

[Round Mound]

This is not directed at you per se but I had to say, :oldlol: at MJ fans thinking someone whose SN is "Roundball Rock" (anyone who watched basketball in the 90's knows what it is) and whose favorite player of all-time is Pippen did not watch MJ play. I just Googled Pippen, saw he is top 20-30 all-time and decided to make him my favorite player. :rolleyes:

MJ is #1 all-time in usage, both for the regular season and the playoffs. He also is #1 in FGA--even topping Wilt. :lol



:bowdown:

Also keep in mind MJ could not function with a traditional PG so he had a SG like Harper or a PG used like a SG in Paxson alongside him in the backcourt (the 1996-1998 Bulls were the only team in the league without a starting PG). MJ could not be MJ, the winner we know, unless he had a point forward like Pippen. How many point forwards exist at any given time? LeBron can function in more scenarios than MJ and his teams suffer more without him than the Bulls did without MJ.

[B]Tis True. But MJ Stans Won

[Rocketswin2013]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Tis True. But MJ Stans Won

[andgar923]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Tis True. But MJ Stans Won

[Round Mound]

So MJ had nothing to do with Pip's development?

If Pip ends up with the Sonics, will we even know who he is?

[B]MJ Made him Tougher But TALENT & SKILL-WISE Pippen Became Elite On His Own. Also, Other Superstars Make Their Other Teamates Tougher Too Not Just MJ. Just That Jordan Happened To Have The Best 6

[andgar923]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]MJ Made him Tougher But TALENT & SKILL-WISE Pippen Became Elite On His Own. Also, Other Superstars Make Their Other Teamates Tougher Too Not Just MJ. Just That Jordan Happened To Have The Best 6

[Round Mound]

Do you know how many players have Pip's abilities?

You make it seem as tho he's one in a million.

MJ made Pip into an NBA player, plain and simple.

He's (pip) said it
Teammates have said it
Coaches have said it
Opponents have said it
Experts and analysts have said it

But a handful of posters online think otherwise.

Without MJ, Pip is a journeyman player.

[B] See This is Why Jordan Jockers Are Probably As Bad as Kobe Stans

:facepalm 1993-94 NO Jordan:

- Bulls Win 55 Games (2 Wins Less Than 92-93 and a Bogous Call Away From ECF)
- Pippen: Top 4 In PER That Season
- Pippen: Highest DRT for a Perimeter Player That Season 7Th (The Rest All Big Men)
- Pippen: 22-9-6-3-0.8 at 49% FG: : Raw Stats
- P

[Soundwave]

92-93 Bulls were an outlier, that was the worst of the six championship Bulls teams because the team was just coasting through the regular season and just wanted to get to the playoffs and threepeat.

Compare the 90-91 Bulls or 92-93 Bulls or 95-96 Bulls to the 94-95 Bulls and its a different story.

And really Pippen and Grant deserve a good deal of the blame for the some of the laziness in the Bulls game in 92-93 ... both had off years.

Lets look at some of Scottie's shooting % in the playoffs btw:

93-94: 43%
94-95: 44.5%
95-96: 39% (wtf)
96-97: 41.2%
97-98: 41.5%
98-99 (Houston w/no MJ): 33% (lol)

This guy was a second banana who played over his head for one year where the Bulls won a whopping *one* playoff round. The following year after Grant left, the Bulls were barely a .500 team, after Jordan rejoined them they went 13-4 down the stretch, with two of those losses coming in the first three games. So really once Jordan got the rust off a bit the Bulls went 11-2 down the stretch.

Reggie Miller won two playoff rounds that year and pushed the same Knicks team to 7 games with a stronger playoff performance (Reggie didn't have Kukoc bail his ass out), no one even bats an eyelash that Miller did anything all that monumental that year.

[LeBird]

Without MJ, Pip is a journeyman player.

Never go full retard.

[Eye Test]

LOL

[played0ut]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Tis True. But MJ Stans Won

[SamuraiSWISH]

92-93 Bulls were an outlier, that was the worst of the six championship Bulls teams because the team was just coasting through the regular season and just wanted to get to the playoffs and threepeat.
The worst bud? I'd argue they were the best.

Coasted during the regular season. But saw every team's best all season.

In the playoffs they faced the greatest tests, and went through the most adversity. Beat both the best defensive team, a GOAT defensive team and the best offensive team, the super stacked Phoenix Suns. Were also underdogs in both the Conference Finals, and NBA Finals.

Came back from an 0 - 2 deficit.

[knicksman]

They made each other. But I think you're underestimating MJ's impact on Pippen. In scrimmages, they're always on the opposite teams (MJ wanted to play against 2nd best) and they'd play one-on-one all the time. They would train together. Compete in steals per game.

Wouldn't you think playing against/guarding one of the most unstoppable offensive players in NBA history day in and day out for years would develop your skills?

Pippen has unequivocally said practice was grueling but he

cherished every moment of it, and made me a better player and person. -Scottie





And addressing '94-'95 bulls, don't you think it plausible that MJ helped them develop their championship pedigree? Yeah, there were some naturally great players who weren't 'made' by MJ, but consider Steve Kerr on Open Court said MJ set the tone, the atmosphere of focus and competitiveness on how to be winners and how to maintain that standard.






And before you call me an MJ stan, I think Scottie is the greatest 2nd option ever and that as fully developed players, MJ needed Scottie more than Scottie needed MJ (Tex has mentioned that).

Plug Scottie in a team with any superstar and they're automatic champion contenders. Put MJ in and there would be overlap/chemistry probs/etc.


nah these kids think that making your teammates better is all about how much assists instead of its literal meaning to help your teammates improve and trust on their roles. Bran already admitted he doesnt make his teammates better so he has to form a superteam but no he makes his teammates better. LMAO these idiots never learn. Theres a reason why pure scorers/pure playmakers(magic, jordan, kobe) have won more than all around players(bran, bird, robertson, wilt) because they make their teammates better. And these guys needed less help compared to resorting to cheating

[SamuraiSWISH]

The biggest IMPACT on a game that a single player can make is being the difference between a win or a loss.

With Jordan instead of LeBron, that Heat team has three consecutive titles already instead of just two.

No way is MJ getting chumped out of a Finals by Jason Terry, I'm sorry but kids can create whatever fantasy scenario they want there, it ain't happening.

A 29/30 year old MJ on this Heat team would decimate the Spurs led by 38-year-old Duncan and 37 year-old Ginobli too.
:applause:

[Da_Realist]

I'm glad MJ played when he did. The physicality and interior defense forced him to be a better player and allowed us to see his career arc from a slasher to a primarily post up player. Had he played today, he would have put up some numbers and won some titles but he would have been 1989 MJ his whole career. We would have seen drive-and-dunk, drive-and-pop, drive-and-pass for 10 years straight.

That couldn't win back then and looking back, I'm glad it didn't. It forced him to learn how to play off the ball, develop post footwork and eventually a fadeaway jumpshot to compensate for a crowded lane and avoid the physical defense that awaited him.

[Roundball_Rock]

Only MJ stans would argue he "made" a HOF'er. Notice how these mythologists never mention the coaches? Collins routinely spent extra time after practice with Pippen and Grant to you know, coach them.

MJ himself benefited from coaching from Dean Smith to Loughery to Jackson. He also benefited from Jackson and Pippen teaching him to win (passing the ball). Without them, MJ remains a ball hog who put up empty stats who never wins anything. Tex Winter said Jordan needed Pippen more than the other way around. Bill Wennington also noted that Pippen went further without Jordan than MJ did without Pippen.


If Pip ends up with the Sonics, will we even know who he is?

MJ made him the #5 pick from a small college. Clear GOAT! Who else can mint HOF'ers? :bowdown:

It is comical to see so much ridiculousness based on MJ helping Pippen. Now I know most MJ stans are young and have not held real jobs, but co-workers help co-workers. That applies to basketball players as well. Pippen helped MJ as well. Other players did. It goes with the game. MJ giving tips to a younger teammate is not revolutionary. I guess according to MJ stans Michael Vick "made" Nick Foles an elite QB? :oldlol:


95-96: 39% (wtf)

Anyone who watched basketball back then knows why that was the case.


96-97: 41.2%
97-98: 41.5%

See above, although it was not as extreme as in 96'.


This guy was a second banana who played over his head for one year where the Bulls won a whopping *one* playoff round. The following year after Grant left

:roll: at MJ stans. He played even better in 95' (same offense but better defense and before MJ returned he actually was 17th in the league in rebounding as a SF in an area where his peers were averaging 5-6 boards) and I would argue his best season was actually 96', until he developed tendonitis during the final fifth of the season. Even MJ was calling him the MVP that season and Bob Ryan referred to him as the second best player in the league--just behind MJ lacking only MJ's aura (Ryan's words).

The truth is Pippen was an elite player who was a MVP candidate without MJ (if the NBA had MVP awards by conference like the MLB does Pippen would have been the Eastern MVP in 94'). He was #1 in all-Defensive team voting every year from 1994-1997. He was #1 in all-NBA voting in 1994, #3 in 1995 and #2 behind MJ in 1996. MJ revisionists want to make it seem as if Pippen was a Joe Johnson type player.

If the claims about MJ are accurate why the need for such ridiculous myths and diminishing of his teammates? You don't see fans of KAJ, Magic, Bird, Russell, Hakeem, Duncan, and so on do this. Why only insecure MJ fans? Moreover, why do only MJ fans revise history? KAJ supporters, Russell supporters, etc. can stand on his record; why can't stans of the alleged "clear GOAT"?

[QUOTE]Tis True. But MJ Stans Won

[Roundball_Rock]

Ask any former Chicago Bulls teammate of Scottie Pippen, right down to the man whose NBA career he nearly destroyed before it started in Toni Kukoc, and they'll tell you that he was unequivocally their favorite teammate. Pippen's mix of all-around brilliance on both sides of the ball, coupled with his calm and steady on-court and practice court demeanor, make him the ideal leader. As a Bulls fan growing up outside Chicago at the time of Scottie's run with the team, I've for years remarked that I would end games angrier with the play of Michael Jordan than Pippen by probably a 20-to-1 margin. Though his missteps were legendary, he otherwise seemed to do everything right.


"I would have to start my team with Scottie Pippen," he said. "This is why I would take Scottie: Do you remember the time that Michael retired? I watched Scottie Pippen when the Chicago Bulls weren't really good and Scottie led that team in every statistical category, and I just remembered that. Plus, he's a guy who could care less about scoring. He wants to stop the best player on the other team. That would have been pretty cool, to see Scottie guarding Michael."


Even if Pippen ran the offense. He relayed direction from the bench, found the open man, found the man who hadn't seen the ball in a while and desperately needed to feel the bumpy leather between his hands, and guarded the team's best perimeter scorer nightly. He took endless amounts of charges before every bit of contact was designated a charge, throwing his back completely out of whack along the way. Also, his unanticipated "ability" to act as the game's 122nd-highest paid player in 1997 and 1998 allowed Michael Jordan to make in upwards of $30 million per season during his last two years with Chicago.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/karl-malone-start-team-scottie-pippen-not-michael-171658018--nba.html

Pippen also was the most admired player by Dream Team III players. 5 of 12 players said if they could be any other player it would be Pippen:


PHOENIX -- [B]I walked up to each one of them and asked the question.

If you could be any other player here who would it be?

It was a question I'd asked 12 years ago to Dream Team III: Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Shaq.

Their answers lent insight into which players they respected, whose game they feared. Back then Scottie Pippen's name came up the most. Five out of the 12 players on that team wanted to be, even if for one game, Jordan's Green Hornet. When asked, "Why Pip?" it was Miller who explained it best: "Because Pippen can score only five points and still dominate a basketball game."

Chuck Daly called Pippen the second best player on the Dream Team and the Olympic committee selected Pippen third--after MJ and Magic. MJ returned from the 92' games and said Pippen was better than Drexler, Stockton and Magic (the other guards). MJ in 98', privately, said Pippen was a top 4 player in the league--and this was a past his peak Pippen.

But it was all MJ who carried that borderline all-star. :bowdown: MJ stans are the most dangerous because only they seek to revise history--and they can have an effect because they are speaking of events that occurred two decades ago.

[juju151111]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/karl-malone-start-team-scottie-pippen-not-michael-171658018--nba.html

Pippen also was the most admired player by Dream Team III players. 5 of 12 players said if they could be any other player it would be Pippen:



Chuck Daly called Pippen the second best player on the Dream Team and the Olympic committee selected Pippen third--after MJ and Magic. MJ returned from the 92' games and said Pippen was better than Drexler, Stockton and Magic (the other guards). MJ in 98', privately, said Pippen was a top 4 player in the league--and this was a past his peak Pippen.

But it was all MJ who carried that borderline all-star. :bowdown: MJ stans are the most dangerous because only they seek to revise history--and they can have an effect because they are speaking of events that occurred two decades ago.
Game 7 1990

[Roundball_Rock]

Game 7 1990

178-190. :roll:

[TheMan]

Only MJ stans would argue he "made" a HOF'er. Notice how these mythologists never mention the coaches? Collins routinely spent extra time after practice with Pippen and Grant to you know, coach them.

MJ himself benefited from coaching from Dean Smith to Loughery to Jackson. He also benefited from Jackson and Pippen teaching him to win (passing the ball). Without them, MJ remains a ball hog who put up empty stats who never wins anything. Tex Winter said Jordan needed Pippen more than the other way around. Bill Wennington also noted that Pippen went further without Jordan than MJ did without Pippen.



MJ made him the #5 pick from a small college. Clear GOAT! Who else can mint HOF'ers? :bowdown:

It is comical to see so much ridiculousness based on MJ helping Pippen. Now I know most MJ stans are young and have not held real jobs, but co-workers help co-workers. That applies to basketball players as well. Pippen helped MJ as well. Other players did. It goes with the game. MJ giving tips to a younger teammate is not revolutionary. I guess according to MJ stans Michael Vick "made" Nick Foles an elite QB? :oldlol:



Anyone who watched basketball back then knows why that was the case.



See above, although it was not as extreme as in 96'.



:roll: at MJ stans. He played even better in 95' (same offense but better defense and before MJ returned he actually was 17th in the league in rebounding as a SF in an area where his peers were averaging 5-6 boards) and I would argue his best season was actually 96', until he developed tendonitis during the final fifth of the season. Even MJ was calling him the MVP that season and Bob Ryan referred to him as the second best player in the league--just behind MJ lacking only MJ's aura (Ryan's words).

The truth is Pippen was an elite player who was a MVP candidate without MJ (if the NBA had MVP awards by conference like the MLB does Pippen would have been the Eastern MVP in 94'). He was #1 in all-Defensive team voting every year from 1994-1997. He was #1 in all-NBA voting in 1994, #3 in 1995 and #2 behind MJ in 1996. MJ revisionists want to make it seem as if Pippen was a Joe Johnson type player.

If the claims about MJ are accurate why the need for such ridiculous myths and diminishing of his teammates? You don't see fans of KAJ, Magic, Bird, Russell, Hakeem, Duncan, and so on do this. Why only insecure MJ fans? Moreover, why do only MJ fans revise history? KAJ supporters, Russell supporters, etc. can stand on his record; why can't stans of the alleged "clear GOAT"?



Other than Shaq for two seasons, MJ was the only superstar to also have a superstar/MVP caliber teammate in that era...

It will be great when LeBron surpasses MJ and these clowns fade away or join another bandwagon. MJ fans are the ultimate bandwagoners. :rolleyes:
I know you're so far up LeBron's butt that you can't see straight...you claim MJ fans are the only fanbase that "diminishes" his teammates? The LeBron fans are the absolute kings (pun intended) of this, that you can't see or notice this is very telling :rolleyes: But then again, you also make those delusional statements yourself.

[juju151111]

178-190. :roll:
Game 7 1990 box score http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006030DET.html :lol

1998 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGuiu88Bwbs :lol

[TheMan]

Also love your 'When LeBron surpasses MJ as GOAT'..., lol. Even after all the ESPN hype, poll after poll of hoops fans show Bran far behind in the public's perception. You better hope and pray LeBron wins it all this year because it will be impossible for LeBron, if it isn't already to be on MJ's level

Casual hoops fans just simplify things, they could care less about PER and all that stuff, they view MJ as the ultimate winner, LeBron is still well known for his WTF moments, I suggest Nike/NBA and ESPN hire a better PR machine because this one ain't working :oldlol:

[TheMan]

Game 7 1990 box score http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006030DET.html :lol

1998 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGuiu88Bwbs :lol
Dat migraine :facepalm

Grant and Pip cost the Bulls a title, I firmly believe that. :mad:

[Roundball_Rock]

Dat migraine :facepalm

Grant and Pip cost the Bulls a title, I firmly believe that. :mad:

:oldlol: at ignoring his play in the previous 6 games. Without Pippen playing well there would not have been a Game 7. Also, how about MJ quitting in the 89' ECF with the series tied 2-2?

Costing your team a title is waiting until the last possible minute to retire, forcing the team to replace you with a D-Leaguer instead of with a legitimate NBA-caliber starter. MJ cost the Bulls a 4-peat--but it was a good move for his legacy. :oldlol:

Oscar shot 2 for 13 without blurry vision in Game 7 of the 74' Finals but you don't see KAJ fans diminishing him over one game. We know KAJ's record is strong enough to show he is the GOAT.


Also love your 'When LeBron surpasses MJ as GOAT'..., lol. Even after all the ESPN hype, poll after poll of hoops fans show Bran far behind in the public's perception. You better hope and pray LeBron wins it all this year because it will be impossible for LeBron, if it isn't already to be on MJ's level

I've been saying this for 5 years and MJ fans have been dismissing me. The signs are all there now...Just the fact that they are being compared should tell you something. A few years ago that was not happening. Many MJ fans are seeing the oncoming train: these people used to be pro-Lebron but are now detractors.

Of course Lebron is behind now. MJ has had marketing behind him for 30 years that no other player in American sports history has enjoyed. MJ has basically had the equivalent of a non-stop presidential campaign on his behalf via the media and via marketing by Nike, Hanes and others. That cannot be erased overnight. Besides, Lebron is just 29. No one would seriously put him over any of the GOAT candidates right now. The poll you refer to means nothing at this point. The better question would be if they believe Lebron can surpass MJ...Anyway, the comparison will not become real until at least 3 years from now if not 5-6 years from now. If MJ still gets 90% then I will be shocked.

[juju151111]

:oldlol: at ignoring his play in the previous 6 games. Without Pippen playing well there would not have been a Game 7. Also, how about MJ quitting in the 89' ECF with the series tied 2-2?

Costing your team a title is waiting until the last possible minute to retire, forcing the team to replace you with a D-Leaguer instead of with a legitimate NBA-caliber starter. MJ cost the Bulls a 4-peat--but it was a good move for his legacy. :oldlol:

Oscar shot 2 for 13 without blurry vision in Game 7 of the 74' Finals but you don't see KAJ fans diminishing him over one game. We know KAJ's record is strong enough to show he is the GOAT.



I've been saying this for 5 years and MJ fans have been dismissing me. The signs are all there now...Just the fact that they are being compared should tell you something. A few years ago that was not happening. Many MJ fans are seeing the oncoming train: these people used to be pro-Lebron but are now detractors.

Of course Lebron is behind now. MJ has had marketing behind him for 30 years that no other player has enjoyed. That cannot be erased overnight. Besides, Lebron is just 29. No one would seriously put him over any of the GOAT candidates right now. The poll you refer to means nothing at this point. The better question would be if they believe Lebron can surpass MJ...Anyway, the comparison will not become real until at least 3 years from now if not 5-6 years from now. If MJ still gets 90% then I will be shocked.
Who cares what he did in the previous 6. Game 7 is what matters in the end. He and the rest of the team didn't even bother to show up. Cost them a chip. Stay off the pipe. Mj has 6 rings and 6 fmvps. He made the marketing real. What was Nike before Mj

[andgar923]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B] See This is Why Jordan Jockers Are Probably As Bad as Kobe Stans

:facepalm 1993-94 NO Jordan:

- Bulls Win 55 Games (2 Wins Less Than 92-93 and a Bogous Call Away From ECF)
- Pippen: Top 4 In PER That Season
- Pippen: Highest DRT for a Perimeter Player That Season 7Th (The Rest All Big Men)
- Pippen: 22-9-6-3-0.8 at 49% FG: : Raw Stats
- P

[chazzy]

andgar continuing to pollute ISH with his "Pippen is a nobody without MJ" rhetoric. MJ has magical powers? If he played with Ariza, he would turn him into Lebron?

[andgar923]

Only MJ stans would argue he "made" a HOF'er. Notice how these mythologists never mention the coaches? Collins routinely spent extra time after practice with Pippen and Grant to you know, coach them.

MJ himself benefited from coaching from Dean Smith to Loughery to Jackson. He also benefited from Jackson and Pippen teaching him to win (passing the ball). Without them, MJ remains a ball hog who put up empty stats who never wins anything. Tex Winter said Jordan needed Pippen more than the other way around. Bill Wennington also noted that Pippen went further without Jordan than MJ did without Pippen.



MJ made him the #5 pick from a small college. Clear GOAT! Who else can mint HOF'ers? :bowdown:

It is comical to see so much ridiculousness based on MJ helping Pippen. Now I know most MJ stans are young and have not held real jobs, but co-workers help co-workers. That applies to basketball players as well. Pippen helped MJ as well. Other players did. It goes with the game. MJ giving tips to a younger teammate is not revolutionary. I guess according to MJ stans Michael Vick "made" Nick Foles an elite QB? :oldlol:



Anyone who watched basketball back then knows why that was the case.



See above, although it was not as extreme as in 96'.



:roll: at MJ stans. He played even better in 95' (same offense but better defense and before MJ returned he actually was 17th in the league in rebounding as a SF in an area where his peers were averaging 5-6 boards) and I would argue his best season was actually 96', until he developed tendonitis during the final fifth of the season. Even MJ was calling him the MVP that season and Bob Ryan referred to him as the second best player in the league--just behind MJ lacking only MJ's aura (Ryan's words).

The truth is Pippen was an elite player who was a MVP candidate without MJ (if the NBA had MVP awards by conference like the MLB does Pippen would have been the Eastern MVP in 94'). He was #1 in all-Defensive team voting every year from 1994-1997. He was #1 in all-NBA voting in 1994, #3 in 1995 and #2 behind MJ in 1996. MJ revisionists want to make it seem as if Pippen was a Joe Johnson type player.

If the claims about MJ are accurate why the need for such ridiculous myths and diminishing of his teammates? You don't see fans of KAJ, Magic, Bird, Russell, Hakeem, Duncan, and so on do this. Why only insecure MJ fans? Moreover, why do only MJ fans revise history? KAJ supporters, Russell supporters, etc. can stand on his record; why can't stans of the alleged "clear GOAT"?



Other than Shaq for two seasons, MJ was the only superstar to also have a superstar/MVP caliber teammate in that era...

It will be great when LeBron surpasses MJ and these clowns fade away or join another bandwagon. MJ fans are the ultimate bandwagoners. :rolleyes:


AGAIN

It isn't us (MJ fans) who say MJ made Pip.

It's Pippen himself
It's their coaches
It's their teammates
It's their opponents
It's their adversaries

etc.etc.

Do you know how many players get drafted high and then we never hear of again? so he got drafted at number 5... so have dozens of other players we never heard of. Players that nobody thought would make it in the league, players that were projected to be stars etc.etc. yet they've been forgotten.

There's been many players that had a great skillset coming into the NBA, but that doesn't make an NBA player successful. You can probably go into a gym in your city and find a 6'8 player with Bron's physique and similar ball handling abilities. That doesn't mean that he's gonna be the next Bron.

Do you know how many players were hailed as the next MJ solely because they had similar athletic ability and what appeared to be a similar game?

There are a ton of Kobe-ish players out there, but Kobe is Kobe for a reason.

MJ molded Pip into becoming an NBA player, it didn't happen overnight, it didn't happen when he stepped into an NBA court to practice on day 1. Pip is a clear case of a player having to adapt and grow, and MJ walked him through it.

So yeah, Pip may have had some of the skills that made him a great player. But it takes more than that.

Shit... Brad Sellers had almost the exact same skills set that Pippen had and he was 7 feet tall. Biggest difference? MJ himself was maturing as a player, multiple coaches through MJ and Sellers' tenure together, and Sellers was a crack head.

Pippen has been documented as literally crying and hating MJ for the first few years. MJ tormented him so much that he and Grant would need each other for support. But it took time for him to adjust and toughen up, took time for him to become consistent and learn what it takes to be an NBA player. He was a happy go lucky guy, that turned into a tough minded player... over time, thanks to MJ.

Again.... those are FACTS jack.

[LeBird]

Also love your 'When LeBron surpasses MJ as GOAT'..., lol. Even after all the ESPN hype, poll after poll of hoops fans show Bran far behind in the public's perception. You better hope and pray LeBron wins it all this year because it will be impossible for LeBron, if it isn't already to be on MJ's level


Haha, you post here with a complex. It's clear as day the reason you troll so hard is because you're afraid that the arguments about Lebron will come true. It's so transparent it's sad.

[andgar923]

andgar continuing to pollute ISH with his "Pippen is a nobody without MJ" rhetoric. MJ has magical powers? If he played with Ariza, he would turn him into Lebron?

It's documented by their coaches, trainers, teammates, adversaries that MJ molded Pip.

Look at his numbers as a rookie, more importantly, look at his delicate and fragile mind frame.

Without MJ only a handful of players would've molded Pip, and chances are he won't be the same Pip we know of today. Who's gonna push him in practice to become a great defender?

I mean, guarding the best offensive perimeter weapon in the history of basketball every day in practice kinda forces you to become a better defender wouldn't you think?

[TheMan]

:oldlol: at ignoring his play in the previous 6 games. Without Pippen playing well there would not have been a Game 7. Also, how about MJ quitting in the 89' ECF with the series tied 2-2?

Costing your team a title is waiting until the last possible minute to retire, forcing the team to replace you with a D-Leaguer instead of with a legitimate NBA-caliber starter. MJ cost the Bulls a 4-peat--but it was a good move for his legacy. :oldlol:

Oscar shot 2 for 13 without blurry vision in Game 7 of the 74' Finals but you don't see KAJ fans diminishing him over one game. We know KAJ's record is strong enough to show he is the GOAT.



I've been saying this for 5 years and MJ fans have been dismissing me. The signs are all there now...Just the fact that they are being compared should tell you something. A few years ago that was not happening. Many MJ fans are seeing the oncoming train: these people used to be pro-Lebron but are now detractors.

Of course Lebron is behind now. MJ has had marketing behind him for 30 years that no other player in American sports history has enjoyed. MJ has basically had the equivalent of a non-stop presidential campaign on his behalf via the media and via marketing by Nike, Hanes and others. That cannot be erased overnight. Besides, Lebron is just 29. No one would seriously put him over any of the GOAT candidates right now. The poll you refer to means nothing at this point. The better question would be if they believe Lebron can surpass MJ...Anyway, the comparison will not become real until at least 3 years from now if not 5-6 years from now. If MJ still gets 90% then I will be shocked.
LeBron is just one more player being compared to MJ, Kobe was being compared and declared by some (Mark Jackson) as better than MJ, that ain't happening anymore.

MJ was being called the GOAT before 30, Magic, a GOAT, was calling him such. LeBron, OTOH, has been critisized more than praised by other GOAT players. Deciding that competing against each other was too hard, let's get together and stack the deck was viewed as a bitch move. Back then, Magic, Bird and MJ wanted to beat each other's brains out, to prove who was better. Imagine how many titles they'd rack up if they got together. Now Bran wants Melo, more help, weak sauce and you know it.

[kureyşi-gospurs]

IMO pretty close.

[TheMan]

Haha, you post here with a complex. It's clear as day the reason you troll so hard is because you're afraid that the arguments about Lebron will come true. It's so transparent it's sad.
LeBron will come and go as just another player who was compared to MJ but fell short.

http://www.mindskin.com/p/192/notworried.jpg

There someday will be a player who surpasses MJ, LeBron just ain't him. Hope to see the next GOAT doe.

[turnaroundJ]

Pippen had dat vision though. I can't exactly explain it but he just saw things. He knew exactly what he needed to do to disrupt an opponent's offense or exactly what he needed to do to make an offensive possession successful.
And that's not just something you can bully into a kid - that's a gift.

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron is just one more player being compared to MJ, Kobe was being compared and declared by some (Mark Jackson) as better than MJ, that ain't happening anymore.

Come on. You know it is on a different scale with LeBron and LeBron has a legitimate chance of compiling a resume to make this a real debate; Kobe was never a real threat to MJ. Shaq was, but he lacked the motivation. Kobe had the motivation but lacked the GOAT caliber ability. LeBron has both.


MJ was being called the GOAT before 30, Magic, a GOAT, was calling him such. LeBron, OTOH, has been critisized more than praised by other GOAT players.

MJ was a freak case due to the unprecedented level of marketing behind him. Who else was deemed the GOAT halfway through their career?


Now Bran wants Melo, more help, weak sauce and you know it

If that happens I will become anti-Heat again, although I would not necessarily blame a player for Riley being the GOAT recruiter/GM.


Pippen had dat vision though. I can't exactly explain it but he just saw things. He knew exactly what he needed to do to disrupt an opponent's offense or exactly what he needed to do to make an offensive possession successful.
And that's not just something you can bully into a kid - that's a gift.

Yup. How many players from a small school no one had ever heard of become top 5 picks? It is laughable to claim one player could "make" a HOF'er--something MJ has not even come close to doing in Washington or Charlotte, where he settles for praising being third team all-NBA. As mentioned earlier, saying MJ "made" Pippen would be like saying Vick "made" Foles or Montana "made" Young. You don't "make" an all-time great. Only MJ stans would make such a ridiculous claim. If MJ had the magic ability he, the ultimate competitor, would have waved his wand in Washington and Charlotte. How many winning seasons has he had in D.C. and Charlotte? One? Two? If he could stop that he would have.

[Dengness9]

Come on. You know it is on a different scale with LeBron and LeBron has a legitimate chance of compiling a resume to make this a real debate; Kobe was never a real threat to MJ. Shaq was, but he lacked the motivation. Kobe had the motivation but lacked the GOAT caliber ability. LeBron has both.



MJ was a freak case due to the unprecedented level of marketing behind him. Who else was deemed the GOAT halfway through their career?



If that happens I will become anti-Heat again, although I would not necessarily blame a player for Riley being the GOAT recruiter/GM.



Yup. How many players from a small school no one had ever heard of become top 5 picks? It is laughable to claim one player could "make" a HOF'er--something MJ has not even come close to doing in Washington or Charlotte, where he settles for praising being third team all-NBA. As mentioned earlier, saying MJ "made" Pippen would be like saying Vick "made" Foles or Montana "made" Young. You don't "make" an all-time great. Only MJ stans would make such a ridiculous claim. If MJ had the magic ability he, the ultimate competitor, would have waved his wand in Washington and Charlotte. How many winning seasons has he had in D.C. and Charlotte? One? Two? If he could stop that he would have.


The Vick-Foles comparison you just made shows how desperate you are to tear down MJ....

Saying Mj made Pippen is like saying Michael Jordan pushed Scottie Pippen to greater heights in the game of basketball because no one was more of a competitor. If you think Scottie was going to be just as good as he was w/out growing up in the league w/ Mike, you are even dumber than I thought.

Who the hell do you think pushed Scottie mentally when his competitive spirt faltered against teams like the Bad Boys? Mike helped Scottie and Horace go next level w/ their games because he was deranged to win.

Your anti-Mj agenda is so ****ing pathetic.

[played0ut]

Yup. How many players from a small school no one had ever heard of become top 5 picks? It is laughable to claim one player could "make" a HOF'er--something MJ has not even come close to doing in Washington or Charlotte, where he settles for praising being third team all-NBA. As mentioned earlier, saying MJ "made" Pippen would be like saying Vick "made" Foles or Montana "made" Young. You don't "make" an all-time great. Only MJ stans would make such a ridiculous claim. If MJ had the magic ability he, the ultimate competitor, would have waved his wand in Washington and Charlotte. How many winning seasons has he had in D.C. and Charlotte? One? Two? If he could stop that he would have.

Pippen always had that potential, yeah.

But I think you're underestimating MJ's impact on Pippen. In scrimmages, they're always on the opposite teams (MJ wanted to play against 2nd best) and they'd play one-on-one all the time. They would train together. Compete in steals per game.

Wouldn't you think playing against/guarding one of the most unstoppable offensive players in NBA history day in and day out for years would develop your skills? No ****ing way you're turning into one of GOAT perimeter defenses playing against offensive scrubs.

Pippen has unequivocally said practice was grueling because of MJ, but he:

cherished every moment of it, and I think it made me a better player and person. -Scottie


The Wizards and Bobcats? Lol they just aren't good. No one's denying Pip and the bulls roster weren't any good. I'm saying MJ was blessed to have good people, and that he had a hand in turning them into a champion caliber team.

[TheMan]

Pippen always had that potential, yeah.

But I think you're underestimating MJ's impact on Pippen. In scrimmages, they're always on the opposite teams (MJ wanted to play against 2nd best) and they'd play one-on-one all the time. They would train together. Compete in steals per game.

Wouldn't you think playing against/guarding one of the most unstoppable offensive players in NBA history day in and day out for years would develop your skills? No ****ing way you're turning into one of GOAT perimeter defenses playing against offensive scrubs.

Pippen has unequivocally said practice was grueling because of MJ, but he:

cherished every moment of it, and I think it made me a better player and person. -Scottie


The Wizards and Bobcats? Lol they just aren't good. No one's denying Pip and the bulls roster weren't any good. I'm saying MJ was blessed to have good people, and that he had a hand in turning them into a champion caliber team.
:applause:

[Ne 1]

This notion that Jordan "made Pippen" is just absurd. Scottie was a top 5 draft pick, and a highly sought after talent (Chicago traded to get him from Seattle). He had his playmaking/ball handling skills from playing PG as a teenager, and he was already touted as a great defensive player coming out of college (averaged 3+ steals). He improved dramatically EVERY year he was in college, which shows his tremendous work ethic before he even met Mike (went from a team manager to a college star in like 4-5 years).

He sure as hell wasn't just some dime a dozen scrub who showed up in the NBA one day and Jordan decided to use his midas touch to make him a star. I'm sure if Jordan had this mythical ability then he would have taken everyone under his wing and made something of them. By Pippen's rookie year, announcers around the league were already projecting him to be a superstar. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M) By his second year he had improved into a solid second option and by his third he was an All-Star and one of the best "#2s" in the entire league. Either Jordan was a godly teacher or maybe.....Pippen was just freaking talented. By the way, his improvement came at a time when Jordan wasn't even the vocal leader of the team (that came around '90 from Grant's account). They had a segment about this in the '91 Pistons series and oddly enough, Grant named Corzine as the one providing leadership to guys like Pippen and him in their first couple of years. Pippen was one of the most physically talented players of his era, was unnaturally skilled for a guy his size and was showing tons of flashes of greatness early on in his rookie year. I'd say he would not only be fine without Jordan but maybe even better off (gets a chance to develop faster without a teammate taking 30 shots a night, and maybe even win a ring on his own as he showed he was capable of leading a contending team in '94 and even past his prime in '00, because hey, we all know on ISH, 1 ring as "the man" > 6 as a "#2"). Jordan helped him, sure, but lets quit the outrageous "Jordan made Pippen" nonsense.

[Soundwave]

Pippen was a huge reach at no.5 though, I remember Horace Grant saying he went "who?" when Pippen's name was called :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

Of course Lebron is behind now. MJ has had marketing behind him for 30 years that no other player in American sports history has enjoyed. MJ has basically had the equivalent of a non-stop presidential campaign on his behalf via the media and via marketing by Nike, Hanes and others. That cannot be erased overnight. Besides, Lebron is just 29. No one would seriously put him over any of the GOAT candidates right now. The poll you refer to means nothing at this point. The better question would be if they believe Lebron can surpass MJ...Anyway, the comparison will not become real until at least 3 years from now if not 5-6 years from now. If MJ still gets 90% then I will be shocked.

MJ is the only player with SIX titles as the no.1 option (unquestioned MVP of his team every time) in the modern era.

No one else has more than three. Magic maybe if you stretched it you could say has 4, but I'd have to say Kareem was probably the better player on at least two of the Laker titles. Bird is sitting at three, Shaq has three, Kareem at two, Hakeem at two, Kobe at two, LeBron at two, Dirk at one.

That means he has as many titles as the no.1 guy as Kobe + LeBron combined with two more to spare for good measure or an equal number to Magic + Bird combined. That and he has the highest PPG in NBA history, that all-time best 72 win season, and numerous other individual awards to go with all his titles and generally regarded by most basketball purists to not have very many weaknesses in his game (great scorer, great defender, great clutch player).

THAT is why he is regarded the GOAT, I don't even see that many Michael Jordan commercials at all these days, I think I saw like one Hanes ad two years ago, lol.

The idea that it's a marketing campaign is just stupid, Jordan has an extremely good case for GOAT, that's why he's regarded as such by so many, only a moron would try to argue against that.

[Ne 1]

The Vick-Foles comparison you just made shows how desperate you are to tear down MJ....

Saying Mj made Pippen is like saying Michael Jordan pushed Scottie Pippen to greater heights in the game of basketball because no one was more of a competitor. If you think Scottie was going to be just as good as he was w/out growing up in the league w/ Mike, you are even dumber than I thought.

Who the hell do you think pushed Scottie mentally when his competitive spirt faltered against teams like the Bad Boys? Mike helped Scottie and Horace go next level w/ their games because he was deranged to win.

Your anti-Mj agenda is so ****ing pathetic.
In Roundball_Rock's defense, he was actually very pro Jordan when he first joined ISH (I've been on here since '08 so I'd know). He is a Bulls fans and I've seen him make posts not just defending Pippen, but Jordan and Rose too. I think he just got sick of all of the Jordan stans on here always degrading Pippen but it seems like he still is mostly levelheaded when it comes to Jordan. Even since he became more "anti-Jordan" he still has said Jordan has a case as the GOAT but that it isn't "clear" and this irrefutable fact like the media and Jordan stans like to push and that somebody can surpass Jordan as the "consensus GOAT."

[Roundball_Rock]

This notion that Jordan "made Pippen" is just absurd. Scottie was a top 5 draft pick, and a highly sought after talent (Chicago traded to get him from Seattle). He had his playmaking/ball handling skills from playing PG as a teenager, and he was already touted as a great defensive player coming out of college (averaged 3+ steals). He improved dramatically EVERY year he was in college, which shows his tremendous work ethic before he even met Mike (went from a team manager to a college star in like 4-5 years).

He sure as hell wasn't just some dime a dozen scrub who showed up in the NBA one day and Jordan decided to use his midas touch to make him a star. I'm sure if Jordan had this mythical ability then he would have taken everyone under his wing and made something of them. By Pippen's rookie year, announcers around the league were already projecting him to be a superstar. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M) By his second year he had improved into a solid second option and by his third he was an All-Star and one of the best "#2s" in the entire league. Either Jordan was a godly teacher or maybe.....Pippen was just freaking talented. By the way, his improvement came at a time when Jordan wasn't even the vocal leader of the team (that came around '90 from Grant's account). They had a segment about this in the '91 Pistons series and oddly enough, Grant named Corzine as the one providing leadership to guys like Pippen and him in their first couple of years. Pippen was one of the most physically talented players of his era, was unnaturally skilled for a guy his size and was showing tons of flashes of greatness early on in his rookie year. I'd say he would not only be fine without Jordan but maybe even better off (gets a chance to develop faster without a teammate taking 30 shots a night, and maybe even win a ring on his own as he showed he was capable of leading a contending team in '94 and even past his prime in '00, because hey, we all know on ISH, 1 ring as "the man" > 6 as a "#2"). Jordan helped him, sure, but lets quit the outrageous "Jordan made Pippen" nonsense.

:applause:

MJ stans never mention Corzine or you know, the coaches. Collins particularly went out of his way to teach Pippen and Grant.


Pippen was a huge reach at no.5 though, I remember Horace Grant saying he went "who?" when Pippen's name was called

As if Grant was a NBA scout. Pippen was unknown but generated a lot of buzz at the pre-draft activities. All these scouts were wrong?


The Vick-Foles comparison you just made shows how desperate you are to tear down MJ....

Who do you think mentored Foles among his teammates? McCoy? :oldlol: Obviously his coaches played a major role, but MJ stans don't count coaches.


Who the hell do you think pushed Scottie mentally when his competitive spirt faltered against teams like the Bad Boys?

That is what co-workers do. I have mentored younger colleagues. I don't go around saying I "made them." Only MJ stans would make something routine seem god-like.

So why hasn't MJ been able to "make" a Wizard or Bobcat into a HOF'er? Does MJ--deranged to win--enjoy losing every year?


Pippen has unequivocally said practice was grueling because of MJ, but he:

cherished every moment of it, and I think it made me a better player and person. -Scottie

I agree with that. Of course MJ helped Pippen just like Montana helped Young and Vick helped Foles and so on. To take that, though, into "making" a player like MJ stans do is comical. Everyone has "help" in their development from colleagues, mentors and bosses.

It also is funny how MJ stans credit MJ for giving Pippen a few pointers but never credit Pippen's leadership role on the team and his impact on players.

Pippen and Jackson taught MJ to win by teaching him it is a team game, not 1 on 5. MJ fans never mention that. :lol

[Soundwave]

In Roundball_Rock's defense, he was actually very pro Jordan when he first joined ISH (I've been on here since '08 so I'd know). He is a Bulls fans and I've seen him make posts not just defending Pippen, but Jordan and Rose too. I think he just got sick of all of the Jordan stans on here always degrading Pippen but it seems like he still is mostly levelheaded when it comes to Jordan. Even since he became more "anti-Jordan" he still has said Jordan has a case as the GOAT but that it isn't "clear" and this irrefutable fact like the media and Jordan stans like to push and that somebody can surpass Jordan as the "consensus GOAT."

Somebody can sure, but show me actual receipts, no this "well 2 titles is almost equivalent to 6". Someone go out and win 6 or really it should be 7 titles as the no.1 option every time. Then I have no issue with saying that person has a better case. This isn't little league where you get a participation reward for showing up and we can't say someone is better than someone else because of hurt feelings.

If I borrow 6 grand from you and only pay you pay 2 or 3 grand, that ain't even.

Jordan is the only player in the modern to have led his team as its best player to more than 3 titles. Nobody else is even past 4, LeBron and Kobe aren't even at more than 4 combined.

Not to mention a pretty sterling resume outside of the championships too.

If LeBron gets 7 as the no.1 option he should be the GOAT fairly resoundingly at that. I got no problem with that.

[Roundball_Rock]

You are correct, Ne_1. What is funny is MJ stans are so caught up in their mythology that they fail to grasp the thinking of non-MJ stans. Look at Soundwave's post, which is typical for MJ stans. They create an arbitrary criteria tailored for MJ and then using those cherry picked factors to declare him the "clear GOAT." It never occurs to them that others may have different criteria or that basketball is a team game and not everyone had a team as good as MJ did in their prime nor did everyone have MJ's luck in major injuries (i.e. MJ managed to never lose a starter for even a series or most of a series in his career, even though he managed to face a Lakers team that lost Worthy, Drexler on a bum knee and the Magic without Horace Grant in the ECF).

[Dengness9]

Roundball.... You're a Bulls fan?:eek:

Not anymore if you were

[Ne 1]

Pippen was a huge reach at no.5 though, I remember Horace Grant saying he went "who?" when Pippen's name was called :oldlol:
Krause sure knew he was, he wanted Pippen after first seeing him at central Arkansas. At first when the Bulls' Billy McKinney went to scout Pippen, he came back and said he could be a late first-round or second-round pick because Pippen's competition was poor so there was no way to tell Pippen's true ability. But when Pippen excelled in post-season all-star games against the top collegians, his draft value zoomed. By draft day, Krause was convinced that Scottie would not be available when the Bulls selected 8th in the first round. He engineered a trade with the Seattle SuperSonics that enabled him to move up three slots and get Pippen with the 5th pick in the first round. So let's not act like he was just some dime a dozen scrub who Jordan "made." That's not to say Jordan didn't help him though, but the fact is that Pippen was just a highly sought after talent.

[Roundball_Rock]

Roundball.... You're a Bulls fan?:eek:

Not anymore if you were

Why? Because I am tired of the mythology around a guy who has not been a Bull in 16 years? I root for the Bulls to this day--and rooted for them in 94'. Most MJ stans are player only fans. I remember when I had leaguepass in 2010 and was often in Bulls game threads. Other than Samuri, I never saw MJ stans in them...


Krause sure knew he was, he wanted Pippen after first seeing him at central Arkansas. At first when the Bulls' Billy McKinney went to scout Pippen, he came back and said he could be a late first-round or second-round pick because Pippen's competition was poor so there was no way to tell Pippen's true ability. But when Pippen excelled in post-season all-star games against the top collegians, his draft value zoomed. By draft day, Krause was convinced that Scottie would not be available when the Bulls selected 8th in the first round. He engineered a trade with the Seattle SuperSonics that enabled him to move up three slots and get Pippen with the 5th pick in the first round. So let's not act like he was just some dime a dozen scrub who Jordan "made." That's not to say Jordan didn't help him though, but the fact is that Pippen was just a highly sought after talent.

:applause:

Hey Dengness, are Pippen haters (read MJ stans) automatically not Bulls fans either?

[Soundwave]

You are correct, Ne_1. What is funny is MJ stans are so caught up in their mythology that they fail to grasp the thinking of non-MJ stans. Look at Soundwave's post, which is typical for MJ stans. They create an arbitrary criteria tailored for MJ and then using those cherry picked factors to declare him the "clear GOAT." It never occurs to them that others may have different criteria or that basketball is a team game and not everyone had a team as good as MJ did in their prime nor did everyone have MJ's luck in major injuries (i.e. MJ managed to never lose a starter for even a series or most of a series in his career, even though he managed to face a Lakers team that lost Worthy, Drexler on a bum knee and the Magic without Horace Grant in the ECF).

Or you could just admit Jordan has a pretty damn good case as GOAT.

I hate how modern society is so f*cking soft that everyone needs to be coddled and given a cookie and we can't say one is better than the other. This isn't girl scouts.

Quite frankly, the Bulls are lucky as hell that they even got Jordan in the first place, had Portland not been idiots and taken him, lets see how the Lakers/Celtics fare against that Jordan/Drexler juggernaut when Jordan is gift wrapped to a good team (as Magic was) rather than having to wait like six years for the Bulls to get him a decent roster to work with.

Even Larry Bird has said he was pushing the Celtics management in the 80s to make the team as good as possible because he felt like once the Bulls finally got Jordan a proper team to work with, it would be lights out for everyone else, and that basically is exactly what happened.

[TheMan]

Krause sure knew he was, he wanted Pippen after first seeing him at central Arkansas. At first when the Bulls' Billy McKinney went to scout Pippen, he came back and said he could be a late first-round or second-round pick because Pippen's competition was poor so there was no way to tell Pippen's true ability. But when Pippen excelled in post-season all-star games against the top collegians, his draft value zoomed. By draft day, Krause was convinced that Scottie would not be available when the Bulls selected 8th in the first round. He engineered a trade with the Seattle SuperSonics that enabled him to move up three slots and get Pippen with the 5th pick in the first round. So let's not act like he was just some dime a dozen scrub who Jordan "made." That's not to say Jordan didn't help him though, but the fact is that Pippen was just a highly sought after talent.
Again, exactly who is saying MJ made Pippen? Everyone here says MJ helped shape Pippen into the player he became, Pippen himself has said this. No one is denying Collins, PJax, Johnny Bach, Tex Winters also helped in his developement, that's what good coaches do. Pippen was regarded as a project, he was very talented but raw and it did take him a few years to become an All Star talent. That's why I find it so laughable when clueless Bran stans say Jordan couldn't win playoffs series without Pippen, as if 88 Pippen was the early /mid 90s Pippen. MJ was winning those playoffs with Pip not even averaging double digit PPG in some series:rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was an all-star by his third season. What is revolutionary about that? Even in his second season, during the 2/3 of the season he started, he was posting numbers similar to what he would post in his all-star third season.


Or you could just admit Jordan has a pretty damn good case as GOAT.

Of course he does. When have I disputed that? The problem with MJ stans is: 1) the mythology 2) they take a case and morph that into criteria molded to that case to make him the "clear GOAT" and dismiss other legends.


MJ was winning those playoffs with Pip not even averaging double digit PPG in some series

Pippen's first start was Game 5 in his rookie year (the first round was 5 games back then) and he had a huge game. Without that, MJ would lose in the first round for the fourth consecutive year. As Collins said, he put Pippen into the lineup hoping for a spark and he got it.

[Dengness9]

Why? Because I am tired of the mythology around a guy who has not been a Bull in 16 years? I root for the Bulls to this day--and rooted for them in 94'. Most MJ stans are player only fans. I remember when I had leaguepass in 2010 and was often in Bulls game threads. Other than Samuri, I never saw MJ stans in them...



:applause:

Hey Dengness, are Pippen haters (read MJ stans) automatically not Bulls fans either?


This whole MJ stans/Pippen Haters thing is new to me. Im a life long Bulls fan who never stopped watching, Ive been here for 7 years posting, so you know Im not just a Jordan fan but a massive Bulls fan. Hell, the mods even changed my Avy quote to "Crazed Bulls Fan"...I didnt even write that.

I just dont understand why you would try so hard to discredit Michael.....you watched him play. Because some fans on ISH say something about him, its angers you enough to turn your back on MJ and make threads trying to slight his greatness?

It's sad to watch. I dont take any pleasure in beefing w/ another Bulls fan.

[Dengness9]

And whats w/ you using the mythology word so much?

MJ has 6 FMVPS and Chips. All time Playoff Scoring avg leader. Most points in a playoff game. Insane averages in regular season or playoffs no matter how you slice it. Was a great individual player then he and his team got better and there was as much team success as any professional sports team has seen in the last 40-50 years.

What is a myth about his greatness? Still only player to lead league in scoring and win DPOY......

What am I missing and again, how you gonna let the looney bin that ISH is, destroy your love and respect for Mike....and youre a Bulls fan!

[ArbitraryWater]

Y u so mad doe? :confusedshrug:

"Y u so mad doe?" >> A Jordan Stan's response to a question he can't answer :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

And whats w/ you using the mythology word so much?

MJ has 6 FMVPS and Chips. All time Playoff Scoring avg leader. Most points in a playoff game. Insane averages in regular season or playoffs no matter how you slice it. Was a great individual player then he and his team got better and there was as much team success as any professional sports team has seen in the last 40-50 years.

What is a myth about his greatness? Still only player to lead league in scoring and win DPOY......

What am I missing and again, how you gonna let the looney bin that ISH is, destroy your love and respect for Mike....and youre a Bulls fan!

Yeah it's basically the "I got trolled by a 12 year old on an internet board so now I'm going to come back with an agenda even more retarded than that kid's" approach.

What have the Bulls done as a franchise without Jordan?

If he's not that great, I'm sure there's a lot of fans in Portland that would've *killed* to have Jordan on their team from 85 to 98.

[Dengness9]

Yeah it's basically the "I got trolled by a 12 year old on an internet board so now I'm going to come back with an agenda even more retarded than that kid's" approach.

What have the Bulls done as a franchise without Jordan?

If he's not that great, I'm sure there's a lot of fans in Portland that would've *killed* to have Jordan on their team from 85 to 98.

:cheers:

[Dengness9]

Yeah it's basically the "I got trolled by a 12 year old on an internet board so now I'm going to come back with an agenda even more retarded than that kid's" approach.

What have the Bulls done as a franchise without Jordan?

If he's not that great, I'm sure there's a lot of fans in Portland that would've *killed* to have Jordan on their team from 85 to 98.


Now if somebody was propping up Sam Bowie as a great NBA player, that would be a good time for the word mythology to be included in the convo.

[TheMan]

This whole MJ stans/Pippen Haters thing is new to me. Im a life long Bulls fan who never stopped watching, Ive been here for 7 years posting, so you know Im not just a Jordan fan but a massive Bulls fan. Hell, the mods even changed my Avy quote to "Crazed Bulls Fan"...I didnt even write that.

I just dont understand why you would try so hard to discredit Michael.....you watched him play. Because some fans on ISH say something about him, its angers you enough to turn your back on MJ and make threads trying to slight his greatness?

It's sad to watch. I dont take any pleasure in beefing w/ another Bulls fan.
:applause:

I'm a Bulls fan first and foremost too. I love me some Pippen, second all time favorite player. I don't also get why RR goes out of his way to diminish our franchise greatest player. As if it were Jordan's fault if there are some 'Jordan mythologists' running around making shit up.

[Soundwave]

What wrong with Jordan be mythologized to an extent anyway? All great players are. He has a resume to back up his mythology.

I don't hear hockey fans b*tching about Wayne Gretzky being mythologized.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Somebody can sure, but show me actual receipts, no this "well 2 titles is almost equivalent to 6". Someone go out and win 6 or really it should be 7 titles as the no.1 option every time. Then I have no issue with saying that person has a better case. This isn't little league where you get a participation reward for showing up and we can't say someone is better than someone else because of hurt feelings.

If I borrow 6 grand from you and only pay you pay 2 or 3 grand, that ain't even.

Jordan is the only player in the modern to have led his team as its best player to more than 3 titles. Nobody else is even past 4, LeBron and Kobe aren't even at more than 4 combined.

Not to mention a pretty sterling resume outside of the championships too.

If LeBron gets 7 as the no.1 option he should be the GOAT fairly resoundingly at that. I got no problem with that.

Good post. Its funny reading some of these comments though. :oldlol: Jordan "haters" often proclaim: “MJ joins teams and they don’t turn into contenders. They don’t get to .500″ (the implication here is that he wasn't the largest factor driving the Bulls’ success; instead, its that the Bulls .500+ W/L record is largely attributed to Horace Grant & Scottie Pippen. :oldlol:)

Lets examine this..

1983-1984 Bulls: 27-55, finished 5th in the NBA Central Division

1984-1985 Bulls: 38-44, finished 3rd in the NBA Central Division – MJ is drafted to the Bulls, they win 11 more games than the previous season, and finished 3rd in the Central Division, two ranks higher than the previous season.

1985-1986 Bulls: 30-52, finished 4th in the NBA Central Division – MJ played 7 games that season, the Bulls win 8 less games, and dropped one rank lower than the previous season.

1986-1987 Bulls: 40-42, finished 5th in the NBA Central Division – MJ returns to play a full season after suffering an injury the previous year. The Bulls win 10 more games, and finished one rank lower than the previous season.

So while the Bulls had a losing record in each of Mike's first three seasons, every full season MJ played they had a significant improvement in their W/L record - sans Pippen & Grant - and with ZERO help in a SOLID Eastern Conference

Lets look at the Bulls’ record in games Michael Jordan did not play:

86: 18-43

89: 0-1

92: 0-2

93: 1-3

19-49 a 27.9% W/L record.

Bottom line.. Mike lead the Bulls in PER, win shares, and win shares per 48 minutes, both metrics indicate he was the main driver of the Bulls’ success. Period. To deny this is to deny reality..

[played0ut]

It also is funny how MJ stans credit MJ for giving Pippen a few pointers but never credit Pippen's leadership role on the team and his impact on players.

Pippen and Jackson taught MJ to win by teaching him it is a team game, not 1 on 5. MJ fans never mention that. :lol

i can admit that. MJ was unlike magic and bird in that they came in the league ready to win. MJ needed some work.

Someone told MJ "There's no I in team" MJ responded with, "There's an I in win." Lol yeah, he needed some work. :oldlol:



MJ himself has also said that there would be no MJ without Pippen, and no Pippen without MJ.



And not many people know this, but when Pippen came onto the Bulls, MJ asked Pippen to train him, specifically, the proper footwork for left handed layups. The right steps and release.

All I'm saying is that I think you're underestimating MJ's impact on Pippen, that's all.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'm glad MJ played when he did. The physicality and interior defense forced him to be a better player and allowed us to see his career arc from a slasher to a primarily post up player. Had he played today, he would have put up some numbers and won some titles but he would have been 1989 MJ his whole career. We would have seen drive-and-dunk, drive-and-pop, drive-and-pass for 10 years straight.

That couldn't win back then and looking back, I'm glad it didn't. It forced him to learn how to play off the ball, develop post footwork and eventually a fadeaway jumpshot to compensate for a crowded lane and avoid the physical defense that awaited him.
As per usual bud, right on the money.

:pimp:

[Just2McFly]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[knicksman]

AGAIN

It isn't us (MJ fans) who say MJ made Pip.

It's Pippen himself
It's their coaches
It's their teammates
It's their opponents
It's their adversaries

etc.etc.

Do you know how many players get drafted high and then we never hear of again? so he got drafted at number 5... so have dozens of other players we never heard of. Players that nobody thought would make it in the league, players that were projected to be stars etc.etc. yet they've been forgotten.

There's been many players that had a great skillset coming into the NBA, but that doesn't make an NBA player successful. You can probably go into a gym in your city and find a 6'8 player with Bron's physique and similar ball handling abilities. That doesn't mean that he's gonna be the next Bron.

Do you know how many players were hailed as the next MJ solely because they had similar athletic ability and what appeared to be a similar game?

There are a ton of Kobe-ish players out there, but Kobe is Kobe for a reason.

MJ molded Pip into becoming an NBA player, it didn't happen overnight, it didn't happen when he stepped into an NBA court to practice on day 1. Pip is a clear case of a player having to adapt and grow, and MJ walked him through it.

So yeah, Pip may have had some of the skills that made him a great player. But it takes more than that.

Shit... Brad Sellers had almost the exact same skills set that Pippen had and he was 7 feet tall. Biggest difference? MJ himself was maturing as a player, multiple coaches through MJ and Sellers' tenure together, and Sellers was a crack head.

Pippen has been documented as literally crying and hating MJ for the first few years. MJ tormented him so much that he and Grant would need each other for support. But it took time for him to adjust and toughen up, took time for him to become consistent and learn what it takes to be an NBA player. He was a happy go lucky guy, that turned into a tough minded player... over time, thanks to MJ.

Again.... those are FACTS jack.


bro stop it. These kids think that making teammates better is all about apg.

[knicksman]

This whole MJ stans/Pippen Haters thing is new to me. Im a life long Bulls fan who never stopped watching, Ive been here for 7 years posting, so you know Im not just a Jordan fan but a massive Bulls fan. Hell, the mods even changed my Avy quote to "Crazed Bulls Fan"...I didnt even write that.

I just dont understand why you would try so hard to discredit Michael.....you watched him play. Because some fans on ISH say something about him, its angers you enough to turn your back on MJ and make threads trying to slight his greatness?

It's sad to watch. I dont take any pleasure in beefing w/ another Bulls fan.

actually hes the biggest beta on ish. Hes afraid of conflicts so he pretend to be a bulls fan until his ass got exposed