I don't think you can take Embiid over Wiggins...

[fpliii]

...but I'm sure if the Cavs do go with him, they'll be pretty confident about his health from workouts/examinations. Incredible, incredible upside.

Even if he's cleared, I'd still have a hard time taking him though, since it seems like a red flag. If there are two guys who look like sure-thing generational talents, why not take the one who doesn't have injury concerns?

:confusedshrug:

[Fudge]

If they take Embiid, i'm gonna laugh my fcuking ass off. Two blown #1 picks in consecutive drafts.

Imagine if they'd taken Noel last year, and Wiggins this year.

Kyrie Irving
Dion Waiters
Andrew Wiggins
Tristan Thompson
Nerlens Noel

Holy fukk, what could have been... :roll:

[stalkerforlife]

I wouldn't touch Embiid with a ten foot pole picks 1-5 or so.

Couldn't even play in the NCAA tourney due to injury.

[russwest0]

Wiggins is a beta.

I'd take Parker first overall if I was Cleveland. Embiid's health is too much of a concern.

[Black and White]

If Cleveland are actually serious about LeBron possibly coming back and preparing a roster for him, Embiid is the right guy to go with (given he clears his medicals)

Irving
Waiters
LeBron
Bennett/Thompson
Embiid


is a good enough supporting cast, don't know if they keep Hawes/Varejao etc

[Smook A.]

I wouldn't touch Embiid with a ten foot pole picks 1-5 or so.

Couldn't even play in the NCAA tourney due to injury.
What does that have to do with his skill and potential?

[fpliii]

Wiggins is a beta.

I'd take Parker first overall if I was Cleveland. Embiid's health is too much of a concern.
True, but even if Kyrie isn't as good a player, he has an alpha mentality. D-Wait too.

[russwest0]

It's a tough call though, no doubt. History rewards those who take risks, so passing on Embiid and his potential would be hard as hell to do.

[JtotheIzzo]

Wiggins is a beta.

I'd take Parker first overall if I was Cleveland. Embiid's health is too much of a concern.


Wiggins is not a beta. People think because he is not out grabbing his dlck and scowling at the crowd that he is somehow not willing to step up.

You saw what he did when he started taking ovewr, 40+ points, 30+ points, for a team that has a lot of shooters.

Hardly Beta material. He's been the man since he was 14, you just suck at life, same way you picked the wrong Thunder player.

[stalkerforlife]

What does that have to do with his skill and potential?

Seeing as how skill and potential are meaningless if you can't play, i'd say everything? :biggums:

[russwest0]

Wiggins is not a beta. People think because he is not out grabbing his dlck and scowling at the crowd that he is somehow not willing to step up.

You saw what he did when he started taking ovewr, 40+ points, 30+ points, for a team that has a lot of shooters.

Hardly Beta material. He's been the man since he was 14, you just suck at life, same way you picked the wrong Thunder player.

he went out of the tournament shooting 1-6 and scoring like 5 points. He's quite easily the biggest beta among the prospects at the top of the draft board.

[chocolatethunder]

Wiggins is not a beta. People think because he is not out grabbing his dlck and scowling at the crowd that he is somehow not willing to step up.

You saw what he did when he started taking ovewr, 40+ points, 30+ points, for a team that has a lot of shooters.

Hardly Beta material. He's been the man since he was 14, you just suck at life, same way you picked the wrong Thunder player.
I don't care either way but I wanted to add something to this thread. Just last week, Bill Self did interviews on two sports radio stations in Philly. In each interview when asked what Wiggins needed to improve on Self said this "ya know he doesn't have that alpha dog mentality yet. I'm not saying he can't get it but it doesn't come natural for him. I'd like to see him be more of an alpha dog." He went on to say that he still thinks that he'll be a fantastic player and has tons of upside.

[Smook A.]

Seeing as how skill and potential are meaningless if you can't play, i'd say everything? :biggums:
I doubt he become injury prone. If he does... then sucks for him and the team that drafts him.

[moe94]

he went out of the tournament shooting 1-6 and scoring like 5 points. He's quite easily the biggest beta among the prospects at the top of the draft board.

Stop this beta/alpha garbage :coleman:

[russwest0]

Stop this beta/alpha garbage :coleman:

look above. even his coach (arguably the best coach in college basketball) called him a beta...

[fpliii]

I do feel like Cleveland is gonna go with Embiid.

[stalkerforlife]

I do feel like Cleveland is gonna go with Embiid.

I highly doubt that.

I say Parker is the most sure fire good to great player and they will not risk it again.

[russwest0]

I do feel like Cleveland is gonna go with Embiid.

hard to say. everyone was convinced they were going with Len right before the draft last year.

I wouldn't believe any reports that leak out.

[chris02jammers]

Embiid is the next Oden... Cavs should learn from Blazers.... Select Wiggins

[Marchesk]

It's a tough call though, no doubt. History rewards those who take risks, so passing on Embiid and his potential would be hard as hell to do.

Yes, the Trailblazers have been rewarded with many a championship.

[Marchesk]

Stop this beta/alpha garbage :coleman:

Should be bannable offense. It was funny at first. Now every other post is alpha player X this, beta player Y that.

[iggy>]

Embiid is nothing like oden.

[russwest0]

Yes, the Trailblazers have been rewarded with many a championship.

for what? stupidly taking oden over durant?

go back and watch durants highlights from high school or college. you'll end up saying "holy shit, how did he not go first overall?"

[RedBlackAttack]

Wiggins has a lot of holes in his game. If healthy, Embiid is the superior prospect by a pretty fair margin.

As much athleticism as you may have, it's scary in today's day and age to take a wing without a handle or court vision. Wiggins is sorely lacking in both areas.

Meanwhile, Embiid is as complete a big man as you'll find at 20... And, he's got a standing reaching of f#cking 9'5+.

[iggy>]

Wiggins has a lot of holes in his game. If healthy, Embiid is the superior prospect by a pretty fair margin.
Definitely. Cavs wont pass him up.

[fpliii]

Wiggins has a lot of holes in his game. If healthy, Embiid is the superior prospect by a pretty fair margin.
If he's healthy, I go with Embiid, no question. Dude looks like a generational prospect. But if there's any concern about him being injury-prone, I think you have to give Wiggins heavy consideration.

As I said in the OP though, I'm sure the Cavs are going to work out Embiid, and make sure there are no red flags. If they draft him, they're going to be confident about his health going forward.

[RedBlackAttack]

Definitely. Cavs wont pass him up.
Wiggins has had the hype machine behind him for several years now, so I can see why people who aren't actually studying these guys are infatuated with him.

It's hard to imagine anyone who has gone over the tape closely taking Wiggins over Embiid. That's just as real as I can be about it.

[Milbuck]

I really want Parker, he looked terrific in his workout. Dude lost a ton of weight and looks like he'll be a 20ppg scorer right out of the gates. He really is the surest thing in this draft.

That being said, I wouldn't mind if Cleveland passed on Embiid and we took him. He's worth the risk.

Wiggins imo shouldn't be in the conversation for #1 or #2. He hasn't shown anything outside of athleticism to suggest he'll be a superstar player the way Embiid and/or Jabari could. Mediocre handles, inexplicably poor finishing ability at the rim, solid jumper but nothing exceptional, relatively small scoring arsenal, lack of intensity/edge, etc. The dude is a terrific prospect, but doesn't deserve to go over Embiid or Jabari.

[iggy>]

Wiggins has had the hype machine behind him for several years now, so I can see why people who aren't actually studying these guys are infatuated with him.

It's hard to imagine anyone who has gone over the tape closely taking Wiggins over Embiid. That's just as real as I can be about it.
Tbh I really like wiggins as a prospect. He can only dribble to one side right now, but he has great potential. I think he will be an elite shooter in the nba. But no way I take him over embiid.

[RedBlackAttack]

If he's healthy, I go with Embiid, no question. Dude looks like a generational prospect. But if there's any concern about him being injury-prone, I think you have to give Wiggins heavy consideration.

As I said in the OP though, I'm sure the Cavs are going to work out Embiid, and make sure there are no red flags. If they draft him, they're going to be confident about his health going forward.

Anyone can get hurt in basketball. It's a part of the game. All you can do is do your due diligence, study the on-court and medical side of things and take the best guy.

After watching Embiid workout recently, it's frankly hard to imagine that he has some major structural problem with his back. He was contorting his body and moving effortlessly around the gym.

If they happen to find something in the MRI, that's one thing. But, as it stands right now, there's a gap between Embiid and the rest of the field, imo. He's that kind of prospect...

In any other draft, I'd be fine with Wiggins. Embiid is the kind of big man talent that comes along once in a generation. There isn't one phase of the game where he doesn't have elite potential.

He's the size of Andre Drummond, but moves like Olajuwon. Crazy.

[NuggetsFan]

I'm not even going to pretend like I have any clue who to take. That being said like most drafts seems like there's been a shift and Embiid has really took over the #1 spot. What's weird is people acting like it's a no brainer or that Embiid being a lock for the 1st overall pick is something that's been set in stone all along.

Embiid/Wiggins/Parker have all had there time in the spotlight, had there supporters. I mean Wiggins was projected at #1 for how long? Guess you can't pass up on the big man but I mean each player has his pro's and con's. Parker doesn't have the same ceiling as the other two but is the safest bet IMO.

If Cleveland took any of the 3 I could understand and don't think there will be any fuss as long as they choose from the big 3.

[RedBlackAttack]

Tbh I really like wiggins as a prospect. He can only dribble to one side right now, but he has great potential. I think he will be an elite shooter in the nba. But no way I take him over embiid.
If Wiggins puts it all together, his game reminds me a bit of Dominique Wilkins. Hyper-athletic scoring machine... not a great playmaker, but certainly a viable No. 1 on a good team.

Right now, I think that's a pretty big "if" though... And, regardless, you don't take that over Embiid.

If he checks out medically, Embiid has both the highest ceiling and the highest floor in the draft. At worst, you're getting a rich man's, bigger Serge Ibaka.

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm not even going to pretend like I have any clue who to take. That being said like most drafts seems like there's been a shift and Embiid has really took over the #1 spot. What's weird is people acting like it's a no brainer or that Embiid being a lock for the 1st overall pick is something that's been set in stone all along.

Embiid/Wiggins/Parker have all had there time in the spotlight, had there supporters. I mean Wiggins was projected at #1 for how long? Guess you can't pass up on the big man but I mean each player has his pro's and con's. Parker doesn't have the same ceiling as the other two but is the safest bet IMO.

If Cleveland took any of the 3 I could understand and don't think there will be any fuss as long as they choose from the big 3.
That shift actually happened midway through the season. Embiid had completely taken over as pretty much the consensus top guy in this draft with his play.

The only thing that brought him back to the field was his late-season injury... And, with the recent public workout and his agreement to allow the Cavs to evaluate him with their own medical staff, a lot of those fears have been alleviated... Hence his moving back up to the top.

[fpliii]

Anyone can get hurt in basketball. It's a part of the game. All you can do is do your due diligence, study the on-court and medical side of things and take the best guy.

After watching Embiid workout recently, it's frankly hard to imagine that he has some major structural problem with his back. He was contorting his body and moving effortlessly around the gym.

If they happen to find something in the MRI, that's one thing. But, as it stands right now, there's a gap between Embiid and the rest of the field, imo. He's that kind of prospect...

In any other draft, I'd be fine with Wiggins. Embiid is the kind of big man talent that comes along once in a generation. There isn't one phase of the game where he doesn't have elite potential.

He's the size of Andre Drummond, but moves like Olajuwon. Crazy.
Good points, I'm just being pessimistic most likely. He's a generational talent, and if he's cleared medically I guess it's not really a big risk at all.

[dreamwarrior]

Wiggins if he turns out to be like Shawn Kemp people will call him a bust. His ceiling is that high

[Milbuck]

Wiggins if he turns out to be like Shawn Kemp people will call him a bust. His ceiling is that high
Well for one thing, they're completely different players. Wiggins is a 6'8" borderline 200 pound skinny perimeter player while Kemp was a 6'10" 230-240 pound monster of a PF/C.

Anyways, Kemp was a 19/10/2/2/1 57% TS player over 8 seasons before he became a fat ****. Considering where Wiggins is at with his development right now, that kind of production would not be busting.

[NuggetsFan]

That shift actually happened midway through the season. Embiid had completely taken over as pretty much the consensus top guy in this draft with his play.

The only thing that brought him back to the field was his late-season injury... And, with the recent public workout and his agreement to allow the Cavs to evaluate him with their own medical staff, a lot of those fears have been alleviated... Hence his moving back up to the top.

I think it was a little past that, alot of people still had Wiggins at #1 when he dropped 40 than 30 on OSU and I believe that was near the end of the season? So much of it at the start was because Wiggins had holes too it seems. Alot of I'd take Embiid BECAUSE Wiggins doesn't have or can't etc. I mean the way Wiggins finished the tournament left people pretty low on him too.

I mean your guy is your guy. I think Wiggins will do better in the NBA than college but Embiid is hard to pass up. Just like Parker feels safer than both of them. I don't know who I'd take.

I don't think Embiid is a generational talent tho. Doesn't matter the sport, those don't spring up the last two months of the season. Those kinda prospects usually have things on lockdown far sooner. I mean Embiid didn't destroy college like Davis. Elite prospect without question, crazy potential. Wiggins has that also IMO and Parker might not have as much potential but he's as ready as you can expect. Like if the Cavs picked Parker I wouldn't rip them for it, Irving + Parker could potentially average 50 a game between them.

[iggy>]

As a sixers fan, I will thank the almighty heavens if embiid is still sitting there @ 3. Id also be ecstatic with parker or wiggins, either way sam hinkie is sitting pretty. Then we can grab either dario saric, nik stauskas, or aaron gordon @ 10.

Cant wait for june 26th.

[RedBlackAttack]

I think it was a little past that, alot of people still had Wiggins at #1 when he dropped 40 than 30 on OSU and I believe that was near the end of the season? So much of it at the start was because Wiggins had holes too it seems. Alot of I'd take Embiid BECAUSE Wiggins doesn't have or can't etc. I mean the way Wiggins finished the tournament left people pretty low on him too.

I mean your guy is your guy. I think Wiggins will do better in the NBA than college but Embiid is hard to pass up. Just like Parker feels safer than both of them. I don't know who I'd take.

I don't think Embiid is a generational talent tho. Doesn't matter the sport, those don't spring up the last two months of the season. Those kinda prospects usually have things on lockdown far sooner. I mean Embiid didn't destroy college like Davis. Elite prospect without question, crazy potential. Wiggins has that also IMO and Parker might not have as much potential but he's as ready as you can expect. Like if the Cavs picked Parker I wouldn't rip them for it, Irving + Parker could potentially average 50 a game between them.

First of all, I almost cringe saying this because it almost ensures that it will happen, but I don't like Parker's fit on this roster at all. He was one of the highest usage players in the entire country at Duke and his defense is sorely lacking. You're going to put another guy who needs the ball in his hands and will get continually beaten off the dribble next to Irving/Waiters?

If we pass on Embiid -- which to me is unimaginable at this point -- then it should be for Wiggins. I consider those guys similar prospects, with Parker being a bit safer and Wiggins having a higher ceiling, but one fits and one doesn't.

But, to address your overall point, from the start of the season until he was finished for the year, Embiid was the No. 1 pick. I don't know what you mean "spring up the last two months of the season." He didn't even play the end of the year.

All you can do is study the guys and give your take... Watch the tape. Look at the measurables.

Guys 7-foot-1, 265 pounds with what would be the largest combination of wingspan/reach in the NBA who can move, score with either hand, shoot, pass, get out on the break, defend, etc... they are incredibly rare.

[RedBlackAttack]

As a sixers fan, I will thank the almighty heavens if embiid is still sitting there @ 3. Id also be ecstatic with parker or wiggins, either way sam hinkie is sitting pretty. Then we can grab either dario saric, nik stauskas, or aaron gordon @ 10.

Cant wait for june 26th.
You guys have done a masterful job in the last year. Grabbed what may be arguably the two best players in the draft last year and have two great picks in what looks like a historic draft. It doesn't get much better than that as far as a rebuild goes.

[RedBlackAttack]

Wiggins if he turns out to be like Shawn Kemp people will call him a bust. His ceiling is that high
Shawn Kemp? lolwut :oldlol:

[Pointguard]

First of all, I almost cringe saying this because it almost ensures that it will happen, but I don't like Parker's fit on this roster at all. He was one of the highest usage players in the entire country at Duke and his defense is sorely lacking. You're going to put another guy who needs the ball in his hands and will get continually beaten off the dribble next to Irving/Waiters?

If we pass on Embiid -- which to me is unimaginable at this point -- then it should be for Wiggins. I consider those guys similar prospects, with Parker being a bit safer and Wiggins having a higher ceiling, but one fits and one doesn't.

But, to address your overall point, from the start of the season until he was finished for the year, Embiid was the No. 1 pick. I don't know what you mean "spring up the last two months of the season." He didn't even play the end of the year.

All you can do is study the guys and give your take... Watch the tape. Look at the measurables.

Guys 7-foot-1, 265 pounds with what would be the largest combination of wingspan/reach in the NBA who can move, score with either hand, shoot, pass, get out on the break, defend, etc... they are incredibly rare.
This. He comes into the league have more a center package than any other center immediately. Maybe even tops in low post moves. People don't talk about how smart he is. How he keeps learning and growing at a tremendous rate and he is already at a higher standing than the other top three candidates right now. So I go with Embiid. But I do think Wiggins jump shot will come along in his third or fourth year and will be a beast.

[JtotheIzzo]

Wiggins will be the best player from this draft, and it shouldn't even be a question.

Yes, he has had the hype machine behind him, but with that he as also had the negative.

That first game against Duke, Jabari Parker got hot in the first half and everyone was saying Wiggins was overrated, second half Wiggins shuts him down and wins the game, everyone grumbles and conveniently glosses over it.

Later on in the season everyone was ranking people like Embiid, Parker and even Tyler Ennis ahead of Wiggins at points during the season, Wiggins was said to not be a go to guy or leader, Wiggins goes out and drops 40, then 31.

So yeah hype, but so much of it was people trying to tear him down. His handle and shooting is nowhere near as bad as people say it is, and his off the ball movement is actually really good (a lot of people say it sucks).

The whole personality thing is a laugh too, because he is not an in your face, grab your nuts, scowl at the crowd American people assume he is not Alpha. He is actually coachable and team first, two pretty good attributes for a kid who needs to step up parts of his game. He is also Canadian, and that brigns more humility than most 'swaggy' black Americans bring to the table, he is not trying to be hard, or cool or any of that other douchy shit you see from Westbrook or Swaggy P, he is just a good kid trying to become something special. Its a real shame people hate this part of him because it is actually a breath of fresh air.

That being said, I REALLY hope he falls to Philly at 3, whoever Cleveland takes will bust, Milwaukee will generate a bunch of negative press because the kid will leave after the rookie contract but Philly, that is a place to build something special.

My prediction:

1-Embiid
2-Wiggins (trade to Phila)
3-Parker (trade with pick plus player or future for Wiggins)

Bottom line, everyone is gonna hate.

[Legends66NBA7]

Whoever drafts him, Wiggins becomes a Raptor in 4 years time.

[miggyme1]

If they take Embiid, i'm gonna laugh my fcuking ass off. Two blown #1 picks in consecutive drafts.

Imagine if they'd taken Noel last year, and Wiggins this year.

Kyrie Irving
Dion Waiters
Andrew Wiggins
Tristan Thompson
Nerlens Noel

Holy fukk, what could have been... :roll:


u dont watch basketball do u? embiid has the most potential out of anybody in this years draft and maybe the last two drafts COMBINED....second wiggins is gonna be the next hyped bust..right behind oj mayo and michael beasely...dude is very raw...no fundamentals...just playing off pure athleticism...that gets u nowhere in the nba.

[BoutPractice]

Neither are "sure thing generational players".

There is some risk involved with all 3 prospects, and contrary to popular opinion Embiid is the least risky of all pics.

From the 3 pics, Embiid is the closest to already being a real 2 way threat (Parker has the offense, Wiggins the defense). His college production was actually better than Wiggins', as his 28 PER was equal to Parker's. Embiid is also the only prospect without a glaring hole in his game you're not sure will "translate": you're not wondering "if he can do X in the NBA".

It's possible he's a bust due to injury and both Parker and Wiggins aren't, similar to the Oden situation, but as of right now, both Parker and Wiggins have more bust potential. If healthy it's not impossible that Parker turns out to be Derrick Williams and Wiggins Marvin Williams, but healthy Embiid will at least be a productive, positive impact center. In other words, he has a higher floor. This would have been confirmed had Embiid stayed in college another year.

Most importantly, with the range of outcomes as I envision them... if you pass on Embiid to take Parker, there's real risk you passed on the one generational center of the 2010s... real risk you just wasted the opportunity to draft the Tim Duncan ie the one pick who actually can by itself turn your franchise around. Whereas if you pass on Parker to take Embiid, you're probably not ending up with a Michael Jordan or even a Kevin Durant. There's less probability that these two are the kind of player you build championship teams around... The optimistic comparisons for Parker and Wiggins are Carmelo Anthony and Vince Carter, the optimistic comparison for Embiid is Tim Duncan. If you passed on a good center, even a Roy Hibbert, to pick Carmelo Anthony, no one will accuse you of destroying the franchise. If you passed on Tim Duncan to pick Derrick Williams, well... it's the kind of choice that can get you fired.


So Embiid is actually the "safe" choice, bearing in mind that no prospect is "safe" in this draft.

2014 is a treacherous draft: it's very deep and the players have ridiculous upside, but you have no idea who is going to fulfill their promise. It's going to make some GMs incredibly happy (like the guy who will have picked that future perennial all-star right after Doug McDermott) and others look like complete fools.

[NattyPButter]

I don't care who the Cavs pick as long as it's the top 3. Now I do feel Wiggins and Parker will both do fine in the NBA. I can't say the same about Embiid. Throughout the season I just didn't see him being all that impressive to me and felt like ppl were over rating him. Yes he has a few decent post moves but he also does dumb sh!t while on the floor also. If his back is fine draft him but if not look at the other two. The Cavs don't need a roster of injury prone players.

[GimmeThat]

...but I'm sure if the Cavs do go with him, they'll be pretty confident about his health from workouts/examinations. Incredible, incredible upside.

Even if he's cleared, I'd still have a hard time taking him though, since it seems like a red flag. If there are two guys who look like sure-thing generational talents, why not take the one who doesn't have injury concerns?

:confusedshrug:

You can make others job extremely easy.
Or you can seek approval from the ownership to do what Dan Gilbert has always wanted. Which is to contend.

Not saying this makes his health not a concern, which is exactly why you'd want Dan Gilbert to be involved in a decision like this.

Picking other players would mean he'd like to contend via trade - which Dallas had successfully done so once. If he does so through draft, and build his roster by valuing draft. They may be more similar to what the Spurs have been able to do.

I think the Spurs would draft Embiid in this years draft, because they are confident in their ability.

But again, his health is still a concern.

[JtotheIzzo]

Neither are "sure thing generational players".

There is some risk involved with all 3 prospects, and contrary to popular opinion Embiid is the least risky of all pics.

From the 3 pics, Embiid is the closest to already being a real 2 way threat (Parker has the offense, Wiggins the defense). His college production was actually better than Wiggins', as his 28 PER was equal to Parker's. Embiid is also the only prospect without a glaring hole in his game you're not sure will "translate": you're not wondering "if he can do X in the NBA".

It's possible he's a bust due to injury and both Parker and Wiggins aren't, similar to the Oden situation, but as of right now, both Parker and Wiggins have more bust potential. If healthy it's not impossible that Parker turns out to be Derrick Williams and Wiggins Marvin Williams, but healthy Embiid will at least be a productive, positive impact center. In other words, he has a higher floor. This would have been confirmed had Embiid stayed in college another year.

Most importantly, with the range of outcomes as I envision them... if you pass on Embiid to take Parker, there's real risk you passed on the one generational center of the 2010s... real risk you just wasted the opportunity to draft the Tim Duncan ie the one pick who actually can by itself turn your franchise around. Whereas if you pass on Parker to take Embiid, you're probably not ending up with a Michael Jordan or even a Kevin Durant. There's less probability that these two are the kind of player you build championship teams around... The optimistic comparisons for Parker and Wiggins are Carmelo Anthony and Vince Carter, the optimistic comparison for Embiid is Tim Duncan. If you passed on a good center, even a Roy Hibbert, to pick Carmelo Anthony, no one will accuse you of destroying the franchise. If you passed on Tim Duncan to pick Derrick Williams, well... it's the kind of choice that can get you fired.


So Embiid is actually the "safe" choice, bearing in mind that no prospect is "safe" in this draft.

2014 is a treacherous draft: it's very deep and the players have ridiculous upside, but you have no idea who is going to fulfill their promise. It's going to make some GMs incredibly happy (like the guy who will have picked that future perennial all-star right after Doug McDermott) and others look like complete fools.


How is Wiggins anything like Marvin Williams?

HE is 1000X a better player, and 10,000X a better athlete.

Williams didn't even start for UNC and Wiggins was runner up Big 12 POY.

Give yer heed a fakkin shake!

[BoutPractice]

I did not myself compare Wiggins to Williams. I heard other people making that comparison.

I'm personally higher on him than the skeptical crowd. I do think that the range of outcomes with him is wide, and that he can be a bust, but contrary to some who point to his underwhelming statistics and offensive limitations I also believe he has superstar potential if everything goes right. Not Jordan, not LeBron, but one of the great players in the league. (A precedent for thinking that is Derrick Rose, who did not have the greatest advanced stats in his freshman year but whose physical profile was just too good)

It's just that I believe that the superstar version of Embiid would be even better.

Again, treacherous draft. The mistakes will be costly, yet most of them could be made by very intelligent people.

[JtotheIzzo]

I did not myself compare Wiggins to Williams. I heard other people making that comparison.

I'm personally higher on him than the skeptical crowd. I do think that the range of outcomes with him is wide, and that he can be a bust, but contrary to some who point to his underwhelming statistics and offensive limitations I also believe he has superstar potential if everything goes right. Not Jordan, not LeBron, but one of the great players in the league. (A precedent for thinking that is Derrick Rose, who did not have the greatest advanced stats in his freshman year but whose physical profile was just too good)

It's just that I believe that the superstar version of Embiid would be even better.

Again, treacherous draft. The mistakes will be costly, yet most of them could be made by very intelligent people.

I dunno, I have real concerns about Embiid being a workout guy. Looks studly going against a chair or doing a few up and unders, but does that translate? 11-8 with 2.6 blocks per game is hardly eye popping, and outside of Duncan which post players really dominate in this era?

Anthony Davis at Kentucky had 14-11 with 4.7 blocks per game. not much more points or rebounds but the blocks are markedly different.

[BoutPractice]

You have to look at Embiid's stats per 40 minutes:
19 points, 14 rebounds, 4.5 blocks, 1.5 steals on 62% shooting and near 70 FT%.

Anthony Davis stats per 40 minutes in his freshman season:
18 points, 13 rebounds, 6 (!) blocks, 2 steals on 62% shooting and 70 FT%.

The stats are near identical, even though Anthony Davis had much more experience playing organized basketball at that point. They make it seem like Embiid is slightly better offensively and worse defensively although we shouldn't read too much into this, the larger point is that the production lines up rather well.

Stats from other good centers in their freshman year in college, per 40 (some of them played low minutes so the comparison is to take with a grain of salt):

Andre Drummond: 14 points, 10 rebounds and 4 blocks on 53% shooting
Joakim Noah: 14 points, 10 rebounds and 3 blocks on 60% shooting

Former great centers:
Tim Duncan (closest comparable in terms of relative inexperience): 13 points, 13 rebounds and 5 blocks on 55% shooting
Shaq: 20 points, 17 rebounds and 5 blocks on 58% shooting
Hakeem Olajuwon: 18 points, 13 rebounds, 5.5 blocks on 60% shooting
Patrick Ewing: 17 points, 10 rebounds and 4.5 blocks on 63% shooting


As for your question about Duncan, well, precisely: Duncan has dominated this era. If Embiid turns out to be this kind of player, people might be asking some years into the future: who else has dominated from the center position other than Joel Embiid?

[Rubio2Gasol]

...but I'm sure if the Cavs do go with him, they'll be pretty confident about his health from workouts/examinations. Incredible, incredible upside.

Even if he's cleared, I'd still have a hard time taking him though, since it seems like a red flag. If there are two guys who look like sure-thing generational talents, why not take the one who doesn't have injury concerns?

:confusedshrug:

:coleman:

Are you hoping Embiid drops to the Lakers :confusedshrug:

Embiid >>>> Your Boy Davis :cheers:

[fpliii]

:coleman:

Are you hoping Embiid drops to the Lakers :confusedshrug:

Embiid >>>> Your Boy Davis :cheers:
lol no, I'm not delusional. Have no clue who we'll take.

He certainly has limitless potential. Could end up better than Davis. :pimp:

[SilkkTheShocker]

You absolutely take Embiid here. Wiggins is Rudy Gay at the next level. Embiid is a two way center.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Well Rockets took Olajuwon over Jordan, so I can see the logic. However, nowadays dominant bigs are rare and most do not develop properly. Its a very risky pick to get Embiid, while Wiggins is guaranteed to be good. Do you want to gamble? Thats the question.

[JtotheIzzo]

You absolutely take Embiid here. Wiggins is Rudy Gay at the next level. Embiid is a two way center.


Rudy Gay, that is such a lame, lazy comparison, Wiggins is nothing like Rudy Gay, he is much better going into the NBA and head and shoulders above him in defense and many other metrics.

dumb.

Good points about Embiid above, but don't forget Emeka Okafor 17.6/11/5 with 4 blocks.

[BoutPractice]

while Wiggins is guaranteed to be good
is he? I honestly don't know. He may well be, but "guaranteed" is stretching it.

[HurricaneKid]

I wouldn't touch Embiid with a ten foot pole picks 1-5 or so.

Couldn't even play in the NCAA tourney due to injury.

He was FAR more impressive in the NCAA tourney than Jabari who had to be removed from the court against MERCER because his D was THAT bad.

[Kiddlovesnets]

is he? I honestly don't know. He may well be, but "guaranteed" is stretching it.

Wiggins is the MJ, Lebron type of talent, just a little less polished atm but he will dominate no later than his sophomore year, kinda like Anthony Davis if you ask me. Right now Parker is probably going to be the best of this draft class in his rookie season, but his ceiling is nowhere comparable to Wiggins.

[BoutPractice]

Believe me, I wish he were - always makes the league more fun. With LeBron I was 100% sure. With him I just don't know.

[fatboy11]

I dunno, I have real concerns about Embiid being a workout guy. Looks studly going against a chair or doing a few up and unders, but does that translate? 11-8 with 2.6 blocks per game is hardly eye popping, and outside of Duncan which post players really dominate in this era?

Anthony Davis at Kentucky had 14-11 with 4.7 blocks per game. not much more points or rebounds but the blocks are markedly different.

I wouldn't expect something so stupid to come from you. "Workout guy?" Embiid was shooting like 70% from the field at one point in one of the best conferences in the country. And we're not talking about dunks and put-backs. He has moves and a jumper. Have you even seen him play? Surely have you since you're such a big Wiggins homer. I think that's clouding your judgment here.

[Nash]

Take Embiid, even if he's not ready you'll atleast have a monster shot blocker. the dude is a volleyball player, those guys sport is about blocking shots ffs. Rim protection is extremely valuable.

[JtotheIzzo]

I wouldn't expect something so stupid to come from you. "Workout guy?" Embiid was shooting like 70% from the field at one point in one of the best conferences in the country. And we're not talking about dunks and put-backs. He has moves and a jumper. Have you even seen him play? Surely have you since you're such a big Wiggins homer. I think that's clouding your judgment here.

My point is, since the workout we all saw tape of he has rocketed to the top of everyone's board. Perhaps it is because he looks healed, perhaps it was that way all along, my point was (and perhaps poorly executed) but simply that seeing a guy be healthy through a workout is enough to garner this much wood.

Don't get me wrong, I am not hating on Embiid, I just worry that people may expect too much now.

[GimmeThat]

Don't get me wrong, I am not hating on Embiid, I just worry that people may expect too much now.

There's no saying as to how Drummond may not be as good as someone like Ewing (maybe not scoring, but you make it up by rebounding I suppose)

And there's also no saying as to how Embiid may not be as good as someone like Drummond.


A player like Okafor may have averaged over 20 points per game sometime in his career had he worked with some of the greats.


This should probably put to rest of people who doubt the likes of Kevin Durant.

[chocolatethunder]

Wiggins will be the best player from this draft, and it shouldn't even be a question.

Yes, he has had the hype machine behind him, but with that he as also had the negative.

That first game against Duke, Jabari Parker got hot in the first half and everyone was saying Wiggins was overrated, second half Wiggins shuts him down and wins the game, everyone grumbles and conveniently glosses over it.

Later on in the season everyone was ranking people like Embiid, Parker and even Tyler Ennis ahead of Wiggins at points during the season, Wiggins was said to not be a go to guy or leader, Wiggins goes out and drops 40, then 31.

So yeah hype, but so much of it was people trying to tear him down. His handle and shooting is nowhere near as bad as people say it is, and his off the ball movement is actually really good (a lot of people say it sucks).

The whole personality thing is a laugh too, because he is not an in your face, grab your nuts, scowl at the crowd American people assume he is not Alpha. He is actually coachable and team first, two pretty good attributes for a kid who needs to step up parts of his game. He is also Canadian, and that brigns more humility than most 'swaggy' black Americans bring to the table, he is not trying to be hard, or cool or any of that other douchy shit you see from Westbrook or Swaggy P, he is just a good kid trying to become something special. Its a real shame people hate this part of him because it is actually a breath of fresh air.

That being said, I REALLY hope he falls to Philly at 3, whoever Cleveland takes will bust, Milwaukee will generate a bunch of negative press because the kid will leave after the rookie contract but Philly, that is a place to build something special.

My prediction:

1-Embiid
2-Wiggins (trade to Phila)
3-Parker (trade with pick plus player or future for Wiggins)

Bottom line, everyone is gonna hate.
I want him at three too no doubt. It did bother me a little when Self said that because a) I hate that term and b) because he's his coach and he knows what kind of player he is. What Self also said is that he is extremely coachable and that his game will blossom in the NBA. It does bother me a bit that a guys coach says he doesn't have a killer instinct but I don't think Lebron did and he still doesn't as much as other guys but he's still a super player so I don't care that much. I want him on the Sixers and expect him to be there.

[fatboy11]

My point is, since the workout we all saw tape of he has rocketed to the top of everyone's board. Perhaps it is because he looks healed, perhaps it was that way all along, my point was (and perhaps poorly executed) but simply that seeing a guy be healthy through a workout is enough to garner this much wood.

Don't get me wrong, I am not hating on Embiid, I just worry that people may expect too much now.

All people needed to see was that he was healthy. It really wasn't at all about what he did at the workout but just seeing how well he was able to move. He was the #1 prospect before the back injury. When Embiid went out, Wiggins re-asserted himself in the mix, but he ended on a very sour note and it turned into more of a "Wiggins is the #1 guy if Embiid isn't healthy" thing. This is all completely discounting Jabari Parker, but that's beside the point. Embiid, Wiggins and Parker have all taken their turn as the #1 guy, but Embiid being a 7 footer with an insane standing reach, footwork, movement, defensive ability and just now scratching the surface offensively has put him firmly in the #1 spot if he's healthy (which it appears he is).

Embiid is the most legit center prospect since Tim Duncan, and I'm comfortable putting them in the same sentence. Not to say Embiid will be as good or better than Duncan, but I think he's the best center prospect since Duncan and he should be a perennial All-Star and potential HOFer. All of the tools are there. Maybe Wiggins is in the same boat, but there are more questions about his game. The only real question with Embiid is his back.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I like Wiggins, but some of you are smoking crack if you think he is a franchise player

[ArbitraryWater]

I like Wiggins, but some of you are smoking crack if you think he is a franchise player

If Wiggins polishes his skills, I can totally see him being Austin Daye 2.0

[DukeDelonte13]

the fact that a kid who started playing bball in 2011 and was seemingly destined to be a 2 year college player due to his rawness is now being seriously talked about at number 1 over one of the most hyped prospects in Wiggins says something.

Dummond had the same injury. He's fine.


He is not Greg Oden. Embiid didn't have hip surgery as a child. Embiid doesn't have one leg longer than the other. Embiid doesn't have arthritis in his knees.

I like Parker over Wiggs, He's younger and far more polished, but as RBA said he really is a poor fit on a roster with D-Waiters and Kryie. Wiggins fits better.

In this draft where you have 3 prospects that can All justifiably go number 1, i think it's ok to choose a player for fit.

However in this case, we got a prospect with the highest ceiling and excellent fit in Embiid. If i'm david girffin he's my guy.

And if i'm david griffin i'm not telling his agent to shut him down. I want Embiid working out for the bucks and the sixers.

[DukeDelonte13]

I like Wiggins, but some of you are smoking crack if you think he is a franchise player


i tend to agree with this. I could be totally wrong, but he doesn't strike me as having the necessary intangibles you want in a franchise player.

[GimmeThat]

I like Wiggins, but some of you are smoking crack if you think he is a franchise player


it's a tough sale, because the current front court is loaded with talent while lacking traditional centers.

When you are being looked as a top 5 pick potential, teams are certainly banking on you to be the exception and not the rule. Hence the term franchise player I suppose.

Don't be surprised when the runs of 2 guard as franchise player becomes the norm again. Because the flood of point guard has yet to produce an exception to the rule.

Besides Curry/Westbrook really leading the charge I suppose.


I don't know what happened to Chris Paul.

[miggyme1]

If Wiggins polishes his skills, I can totally see him being Austin Daye 2.0


lol so thats his ceiling in your opinion?

if he polishes up i see a lamar odom 2.0..but thats just my opinion

[toneloc103]

I mean your guy is your guy. I think Wiggins will do better in the NBA than college but Embiid is hard to pass up. Just like Parker feels safer than both of them. I don't know who I'd take.

I don't think Embiid is a generational talent tho. Doesn't matter the sport, those don't spring up the last two months of the season. Those kinda prospects usually have things on lockdown far sooner. I mean Embiid didn't destroy college like Davis. Elite prospect without question, crazy potential. Wiggins has that also IMO and Parker might not have as much potential but he's as ready as you can expect. Like if the Cavs picked Parker I wouldn't rip them for it, Irving + Parker could potentially average 50 a game between them.

I like your thinking. For some reason Embid puts me in the mind of Thabeet. I am really not down with him. We need shooting and Parker fits the need. Lets keep Hawes and we still have Andy. Hawes is only 25 remember..

[veilside23]

If Wiggins polishes his skills, I can totally see him being Austin Daye 2.0


I don't know if you are serious but moving forward I wouldn't bother quoting your post again.

How is the NBA these days ?

Is Dwight howard still that effective ? yes he is . for the past 3 years where do you rank Dwight howard? top 5? maybe ..

Tim Duncan is effective because of the system and players around him . They've been playing with each other for the past 10 years . TLP atleast.

Embiid has a bright future yes. but for the last 10 years who is the most dominant C that got drafted that carried a team of his back ? It was suppose to be Oden but we all know what happened.

I watched campus insider seth said they would take wiggins because of how the NBA is today. It is no longer the era of ewing, hakeem, shaq. Its all about LBJ, Durant, Melo, and PG's ...

What I like most about wiggins is his ability to move without the ball and slashing . his 2nd jump is also special . Rudy gay is more polished than Andrew wiggins when he was in college however the game of Rudy Gay didn't really improve much when he played in the nba.

Wiggins on the other hand is better defensively than gay and should only get better. A defender gets better when the player matures hell even ray allen can play defense better even if he is older. See paul George . So that's the thing that gives me an edge for wiggins.

It remains to be seen what can wiggins do if he is the center of the team in Kansas he showed it at times but not all the time because the team they had is complete .

I maybe wrong but he probably being passive at times because he didn't want to be injured since he already knew that he only needed 1 year in college. That might have an effect on how he played in college.

I think you cant go wrong in picking wiggins because seeing how derozan turned out as a player it would be scary how wiggins can be once he develops his game

[BoutPractice]

Sorry to be posting once more in this thread, but Embiid and Thabeet have essentially nothing in common other than their measurements.

Thabeet was always a mechanical offensive player with almost zero basketball skills. The dreaded "project" who doesn't have anything to show right now, but may develop this or that in the future. From the start I thought he was overhyped, and many people were questioning him at the number 2 pick. They'd seen this script before.

Whereas I thought Embiid was a number 1 pick kind of talent literally the moment I first saw a video of him, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one... That was months (or was it more than a year even?) before he even stepped on the NCAA court.

And he's been seen as the potential 1st pick in the draft for much more than two months. Even before the season started, Bill Self was comparing him to Hakeem and Duncan, saying he was the best talent on the team (meaning better than Wiggins) and implying he would end up as a number 1 pick in the draft.

As for the Davis comparison, once again Embiid's per 40 stats were almost identical.

[RedBlackAttack]

Sorry to be posting once more in this thread, but Embiid and Thabeet have essentially nothing in common other than their measurements.

Thabeet was always a mechanical offensive player with almost zero basketball skills. The dreaded "project" who doesn't have anything to show right now, but may develop this or that in the future. From the start I thought he was overhyped, and many people were questioning him at the number 2 pick. They'd seen this script before.

Whereas I thought Embiid was a number 1 pick kind of talent literally the moment I first saw a video of him, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one... That was months (or was it more than a year even?) before he even stepped on the NCAA court.

And he's been seen as the potential 1st pick in the draft for much more than two months. Even before the season started, Bill Self was comparing him to Hakeem and Duncan, saying he was the best talent on the team (meaning better than Wiggins) and implying he would end up as a number 1 pick in the draft.

As for the Davis comparison, once again Embiid's per 40 stats were almost identical.
Why would you be sorry?

I'm enjoying your posts.

My initial reaction when the Cavs received the No. 1 pick was just to say, "Take Wiggins," because I hadn't really paid a ton of attention to the top of this draft class, having assumed we'd be picking late in the lottery. I had seen some of Embiid and loved what I saw, but I also heard about his back.

It took me all of about three hours of reviewing the tape after we got the No. 1 pick to swing way in the favor of Embiid. And, it's hard for me to imagine anyone really delving into these guys and not coming to the same conclusion.

That's not to say Parker and Wiggins aren't good prospects... they are, and they're very different.

But, Embiid is just... wow. So much potential. And his floor is also incredibly high. Even if his scoring never translates the way it looks like it probably will, you're getting a rim protecting, rebounding big man who can pass. His passing is probably his most underrated skill, too. I've seen him many times accept double teams/traps, patiently survey the floor and throw darts to the corners/wings for wide open shots.

That's incredibly important in the NBA and one of the reasons the Spurs are as good as they are... Great passing big men.

[ProfessorMurder]

You've got to take Embiid... But you've also got to have or hire a great big man coach like Clifford Ray.

Don't just send him to Hakeem for 3 weeks. Really work him in the post, avoid 3 ball shooting.

[Johnny Jones]

The only concern with Embiid is his back.

[veilside23]

kawhi leonard , LBJ, Melo, paul george, and durant is proving that the nba is not about being big in this generation ...

If both kawhi and george transform into a better player then i dont see why wiggins wont . They were all quite raw but can almost do it all.

[returnofthemack]

Got to have the bigs. Gonna be mad if the cavs don't take Embiid. Everyone can say how the nba isn't about the bigs anymore but all it will take is one of these guys (like Embiid) reaching their potential to change everyone's mind.

[veilside23]

bump any updates regarding embiid's medical ?

[veilside23]

again to my point no body thought that kawhi leonard would be this good ... you can all things about wiggins being raw and all but if kawhi can do this .. wiggins can as well if he works harder.