True or False: MJ = GOAT perimeter defender?

[fpliii]

:confusedshrug:

EDIT: Follow up - Is this true if we take role players/defensive specialists out of the equation?

[triangleoffense]

False, especially now with defensive specialists who do nothing but play lock-down perimeter d. But when he wanted to he could be the best perimeter defender on the floor.

definitely best 2-way player of all time.

[ArbitraryWater]

False, especially now with defensive specialists who do nothing but play lock-down perimeter d. But when he wanted to he could be the best perimeter defender on the floor.

definitely best 2-way player of all time.

This Basically

[iTare]

pippen

[navy]

False.

[riseagainst]

false. Pippen

[MavsSuperFan]

False

LeGod >>>>>>>>>>> Pippen> MJ

[moe94]

Dude wasn't even the best on his own team.

[fpliii]

False, especially now with defensive specialists who do nothing but play lock-down perimeter d. But when he wanted to he could be the best perimeter defender on the floor.

definitely best 2-way player of all time.
Good point, edited the OP.

[K Xerxes]

If he expended most of his energy on defense like specialists do, I think he could have been.

Late 80s Jordan was arguably the best perimeter man defender of all time, but I'd say there have been better overall perimeter defenders.

[imdaman99]

I thought Payton was :bowdown:

[Rubio2Gasol]

Coop.

Rodamn way back in the day.

[PsychoBe]

Dude wasn't even the best on his own team.

dpoy not the best :roll: :roll: :roll:

as kenny smith said, michael jordan was the deon sanders of basketball. you wouldn't even run plays on his side of the court because he was an absolute thief in the passing lanes.

only other perimeter defender(s) that come close are sidney moncrief and a prime ron artest. gary peyton is also an honorable mention.

[moe94]

dpoy not the best :roll: :roll: :roll:


You think Jordan was a better perimeter defender than Pippen?

[Marchesk]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/golf/www/release/sites/default/files/article_images/jan30_bridgeman_299x376_0.jpg

[Smook A.]

http://i67.servimg.com/u/f67/11/07/19/92/61187910.jpg

[Young X]

You think Jordan was a better perimeter defender than Pippen?Nothing wrong with thinking that. It's like saying Robinson was a better defender than Duncan. Jordan was a complete hound on defense.

[atljonesbro]

For pure defense I'd take Tony Allen over Jordan. But that's because all he focuses on is defense.

[kennethgriffin]

jordan wasnt even the best perimeter defender on his own team. he was their 3rd best defender overall behind pip and worm


but jordan is one of the top defenders of all time.. just not anywhere close to best

payton was better aswell

[Nikola_]

Who was the better defender? Pippen was one of the best and most gifted defenders of all time. But MJ was the better defender. Michael could shut down anyone in the world for a 3 minute span. The best he

[Marchesk]

Quiz: who is the only non-big to win DPOY of the year twice?

[PsychoBe]

jordan wasnt even the best perimeter defender on his own team. he was their 3rd best defender overall behind pip and worm


but jordan is one of the top defenders of all time.. just not anywhere close to best

payton was better aswell

i think jordan was better than pippen the only difference was jordan was an infinitely better scorer than pippen so most of his energy was on offense and most of pippen's was on defense but remember both pippen and jordan had competitions to see who could cause the most turnovers in a game.

payton was very good but he lacked the defensive versatility due to his lack of height and wingspan and smaller hands (less disruptive)

[riseagainst]

Quiz: who is the only non-big to win DPOY of the year twice?
Sidney Moncrief

[PsychoBe]

Quiz: who is the only non-big to win DPOY of the year twice?

sidney moncrief

[NumberSix]

Wasn't even the best on his team, let alone of all time.

[DatAsh]

He's in the conversation, probably top 5, but I can think of at least 2 I'd have above him.

[NumberSix]

sidney moncrief
Rodman did too.

[ImKobe]

Kobe says hi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTITRJp2bhI

who else would do that to Wade & James?

[Roundball_Rock]

i think jordan was better than pippen the only difference was jordan was an infinitely better scorer than pippen so most of his energy was on offense and most of pippen's was on defense

Pippen also was his team's primary playmaker/ballhandler so energy is not a real issue here. Maybe in MJ's later years, when Harper did things like guard Stockton in the Finals and MJ and Longley did the light defensive work, it was a factor but not earlier.

Has there ever been a MJ thread in which MJ was not deemed the best at _____ ? I still remember a thread in which MJ fans argued MJ was more dominant in the post than Kareem. :roll:

[PsychoBe]

Pippen also was his team's primary playmaker/ballhandler so energy is not a real issue here. Maybe in MJ's later years, when Harper did things like guard Stockton in the Finals and MJ and Longley did the light defensive work, it was a factor but not earlier.

Has there ever been a MJ thread in which MJ was not deemed the best at _____ ? I still remember a thread in which MJ fans argued MJ was more dominant in the post than Kareem. :roll:

jordan averaged over 11 assists in the finals and is behind kobe for most all-time assists by a non-pg and the triangle offense turned every player into a better passer not just scottie and jordan the point of the triangle offense is for each player to always know where the other is so that the ball always moves and never stagnates.

and kenny smith called jordan the "shaq of shooting guards" in the post because he was too strong for guards to move him out of his spots and too quick for forwards to defend him effectively so there's that.

[DFish24]

Pippen over Jordan.

[DonDadda59]

Young-Prime Jordan > Pippen. Obviously Scottie had the edge when MJ was in his mid 30s doe. Although Pip was hampered a lot by back issues during the second 3peat. From one of the Bulls coaches, Johnny Bach:

[INDENT]Who was the better defender? Pippen was one of the best and most gifted defenders of all time. But MJ was the better defender. Michael could shut down anyone in the world for a 3 minute span. The best he

[Smoke117]

Nothing wrong with thinking that. It's like saying Robinson was a better defender than Duncan. Jordan was a complete hound on defense.

Except saying Duncan was a better defensive player than Robinson would make you an idiot. Duncan was never close to as dominant defensively as Robinson was.

[DonDadda59]

Except saying Duncan was a better defensive player than Robinson would make you an idiot. Duncan was never close to as dominant defensively as Robinson was.

Why? Look at SA's defensive rankings with Robinson as the sole anchor and then compare that to when Duncan took over those duties. After Robinson retired in '03, the SPurs spent the next 3 consecutive years as the #1 ranked defense, even ranking higher than the touted '04 Pistons.

[Keno]

ummm he wasn't even the best perimeter defender on his team.

[kshutts1]

One game does not make a career, but show me one game where ANY perimeter player did a better job defensively than Pippen did in G3 of the '98 finals.

Not saying Pip is the best perimeter defender ever, but figured this was a good thread for that question/challenge.

[DatAsh]

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Young-Prime Jordan > Pippen. Obviously Scottie had the edge when MJ was in his mid 30s doe. Although Pip was hampered a lot by back issues during the second 3peat. From one of the Bulls coaches, Johnny Bach:

[INDENT]Who was the better defender? Pippen was one of the best and most gifted defenders of all time. But MJ was the better defender. Michael could shut down anyone in the world for a 3 minute span. The best he

[DonDadda59]

I don't think that really clashes with why people rate Pippen over Jordan though. From 88-93, Jordan was the better defender; you'd have a hard time finding people who witnessed that era that would disagree with that. The reason I have Pippen over Jordan is for what he did after that, particularly in Jordan's absence.

Fine by me, but on the flip side Pippen missed roughly half the 97-98 Season after his back surgery and had issues when he returned (including missing a huge chunk of the second half of game 6 in the finals... and we all know how that ended). Bulls ranked 3rd in defense that season.

With Jordan gone in '93-'94, they ranked 6th and the following year 2nd.

When Jordan won DPOY in '88 with Pip riding the bench, Bulls were ranked 3rd.

[Paul George 24]

False

LeGod >>>>>>>>>>> Pippen> MJ
no,lebron is a poor man defender,he can't stay in front his opponent and always beat off the dribble :no:

[Paul George 24]

Pippen over Jordan.
FLASE,THEY ARE SAME LEVEL OR JORDAN EVEN BETTER:banana:

[Paul George 24]

ummm he wasn't even the best perimeter defender on his team.
10 TIMES BETTER THAN LBJ EVER BEEN :cheers:

[Paul George 24]

Wasn't even the best on his team, let alone of all time.
THEY'RE BOTH 10 TIMES BETTER THAN LEBRON EVER BEEN

[Paul George 24]

Kobe says hi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTITRJp2bhI

who else would do that to Wade & James?

NO.JORDAN IAS STILL WAY BETTER THAN KOBE

[Paul George 24]

Pippen also was his team's primary playmaker/ballhandler so energy is not a real issue here. Maybe in MJ's later years, when Harper did things like guard Stockton in the Finals and MJ and Longley did the light defensive work, it was a factor but not earlier.

Has there ever been a MJ thread in which MJ was not deemed the best at _____ ? I still remember a thread in which MJ fans argued MJ was more dominant in the post than Kareem. :roll:

Pippen doesn't need to take the offensive load like Jordan did :no:

[Smoke117]

Pippen created much more havoc as a help defender than Jordan ever did. At his peak in 94 and 95 he was plain just a more dominant defender than Jordan ever was...especially in 95 when there was no Jordan or Grant yet Scottie still had the team 2nd in defense. That team was better defensively than the 93 team that had Grant and Jordan. That's how dominant Pippen was defensively that season.

I would probably give Jordan the nod slightly one on one, but Pippen was the most dominant wing team/help defender ever. It was frankly a waste to have Pippen on the opposing teams best player because he was at his best when he could play off his man to play help defense and cut off passing lanes. That's how he destroyed the Jazz defensively and pissed of Jerry Sloan who kept complaining that Pippen was playing illegal defense. Scottie led the playoffs in 91 and 96 in drating and defensive win shares.

[Young X]

Except saying Duncan was a better defensive player than Robinson would make you an idiot. Duncan was never close to as dominant defensively as Robinson was.I meant during the Twin Tower days when they played together. Both of them had similar impact defensively and they anchored elite defenses together - kinda similar to Jordan and Pippen to a certain extent. Not talking about Robinson's prime.

[Paul George 24]

Pippen created much more havoc as a help defender than Jordan ever did. At his peak in 94 and 95 he was plain just a more dominant defender than Jordan ever was...especially in 95 when there was no Jordan or Grant yet Scottie still had the team 2nd in defense. That team was better defensively than the 93 team that had Grant and Jordan. That's how dominant Pippen was defensively that season.

I would probably give Jordan the nod slightly one on one, but Pippen was the most dominant wing team/help defender ever. It was frankly a waste to have Pippen on the opposing teams best player because he was at his best when he could play off his man to play help defense and cut off passing lanes. That's how he destroyed the Jazz defensively and pissed of Jerry Sloan who kept complaining that Pippen was playing illegal defense. Scottie led the playoffs in 91 and 96 in drating and defensive win shares.

JORDAN IS ABOUT THE SAME OR EVEN BETTER MAN DEFEENDER & HELP DEFENDER THAN PIPPEN :applause:

[PsychoBe]

Pippen created much more havoc as a help defender than Jordan ever did. At his peak in 94 and 95 he was plain just a more dominant defender than Jordan ever was...especially in 95 when there was no Jordan or Grant yet Scottie still had the team 2nd in defense. That team was better defensively than the 93 team that had Grant and Jordan. That's how dominant Pippen was defensively that season.

I would probably give Jordan the nod slightly one on one, but Pippen was the most dominant wing team/help defender ever. It was frankly a waste to have Pippen on the opposing teams best player because he was at his best when he could play off his man to play help defense and cut off passing lanes. That's how he destroyed the Jazz defensively and pissed of Jerry Sloan who kept complaining that Pippen was playing illegal defense. Scottie led the playoffs in 91 and 96 in drating and defensive win shares.

who do you think taught pippen how to defend like that? :roll: :roll: :roll:

guess: he was the former bulls dpoy, mvp, and scoring champ all in the same season :applause:

[DonDadda59]

Pippen created much more havoc as a help defender than Jordan ever did. At his peak in 94 and 95 he was plain just a more dominant defender than Jordan ever was...especially in 95 when there was no Jordan or Grant yet Scottie still had the team 2nd in defense. That team was better defensively than the 93 team that had Grant and Jordan. That's how dominant Pippen was defensively that season.

I would probably give Jordan the nod slightly one on one, but Pippen was the most dominant wing team/help defender ever. It was frankly a waste to have Pippen on the opposing teams best player because he was at his best when he could play off his man to play help defense and cut off passing lanes. That's how he destroyed the Jazz defensively and pissed of Jerry Sloan who kept complaining that Pippen was playing illegal defense. Scottie led the playoffs in 91 and 96 in drating and defensive win shares.

'88 DPOY Jordan averaged 3.2 SPG (led the league), 1.6 BPG, Bulls ranked 3rd in defense.

'95 Pippen 2.9 SPG, 1.1 BPG, Bulls ranked 2nd in defense.

This was with Jordan putting up 35 PPG on 54% FG while Pippen was at 21 PPG on 48%.

Jordan has 3 steals titles to Pippen's 1. In '88 Jordan became the first player with 100 blocks and 200 steals in a season (Pippen himself and Hakeem would later accomplish this). Jordan did it twice, matching the feat the next season ('89).

[greymatter]

Before I started following basketball, my father told me that Sidney Moncrief was easily the best perimeter defender he'd watched play before he lost it all to injury.

Bleacher Report has him at #3 all time just ahead of MJ, but behind Pip (#2) and Payton (#1). Considering that his prime was cut short and done by 1987 (about 7 seasons), that's a pretty damn good endorsement.

[Calabis]

Pippen also was his team's primary playmaker/ballhandler so energy is not a real issue here. Maybe in MJ's later years, when Harper did things like guard Stockton in the Finals and MJ and Longley did the light defensive work, it was a factor but not earlier.

Has there ever been a MJ thread in which MJ was not deemed the best at _____ ? I still remember a thread in which MJ fans argued MJ was more dominant in the post than Kareem. :roll:

http://chasing23.com/did-scottie-pippen-always-guard-the-other-teams-best-player/

Someone else posted the Kevin Johnson interview talking about Jordans defense .

With that said Jordan is one of the best perimeter defenders of all time....but I have guys like Rodman, Moncrief, ranked ahead of him....guys like B. Jones, Pippen, Artest were just as good imo.

[guy]

Pippen also was his team's primary playmaker/ballhandler so energy is not a real issue here.

Are you seriously arguing that Pippen carried as much weight with his playmaking/ballhandling as Jordan did with his scoring? :oldlol: Dude wasn't Magic Johnson or Steve Nash out there.

[bizil]

In terms of guys who were very good to great two way players, u can choose from these kind of guys:

MJ
Pippen
Bron
Wade
Hondo
Kobe
Payton
Frazier
Moncrief
Pressey
Jerry West
Dennis Johnson
Dumars
Alvin Roberston

Of this group, MJ man on man wise doesn't have to take a backseat to anybody. But I think Pip is a bit better due to the versatility in Pip's game. He could check PG to PF and did it often! MJ was very versatile himself though and could check PG to SF easily. However, for perimeter players Pip and even Bron have a versatility that makes them more unique. But all the guys I named were epic defenders and two way players!

[SHAQisGOAT]

<------

Tbh I don't even have Jordan in my top2 for SG's, as far as defense... Moncrief being 1st and Cooper 2nd.

As far as perimeter defense you also got Payton, Pippen and Frazier giving him a great run for his money... Plus Rodman and Bobby Jones if you wanna consider them perimeter defenders.. Dennis was at his best, overall defensively, in his younger years and he played more SF, guarding all types of SF's, some SG's, even some PF's and PG's, he was not as good on the post as later on but still really good and better on the perimeter (more mobile too); Bobby used to mostly guard SF's and PF's but also did defend some guards, even some centers.

So yea, that's a no for both questions but ofc that MJ is one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever, even while having to expend much energy on offense, what really made him terrific was the combination between off-ball and on-ball, off-ball was "always there" and just amazing, when he really comitted on-ball and was put on the opponent's best player he was hounding him like crazy. One of the few guards to win DPOY (I feel like DJ would've won in 1982 and Frazier probably would've gotten one too, if the award was already given.. apart from the few others that have won it since it was implemented).

[SHAQisGOAT]

Quiz: who is the only non-big to win DPOY of the year twice?


http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/golf/www/release/sites/default/files/article_images/jan30_bridgeman_299x376_0.jpg

Certainly not that^ guy... That's Junior Bridgeman, this is Sidney Moncrief:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/2011/news/features/david_aldridge/10/31/nba-lockout-next-steps/1031-sidney-moncrief-300.jpg

I assume you wanted to post a pic of him

[Micku]

Pippen created much more havoc as a help defender than Jordan ever did. At his peak in 94 and 95 he was plain just a more dominant defender than Jordan ever was...especially in 95 when there was no Jordan or Grant yet Scottie still had the team 2nd in defense. That team was better defensively than the 93 team that had Grant and Jordan. That's how dominant Pippen was defensively that season.

I would probably give Jordan the nod slightly one on one, but Pippen was the most dominant wing team/help defender ever. It was frankly a waste to have Pippen on the opposing teams best player because he was at his best when he could play off his man to play help defense and cut off passing lanes. That's how he destroyed the Jazz defensively and pissed of Jerry Sloan who kept complaining that Pippen was playing illegal defense. Scottie led the playoffs in 91 and 96 in drating and defensive win shares.

I actually think that Jordan played that better than Pippen did in the first 3peat from the vids that I watched. Jordan was awesome in the passing lane and was quick on his feet to get back to one on one defense. His help defense was very good when he was younger. Jordan had quicker hands and feet to me. It'll be interesting to see the stats on how many steals and how many times Jordan disrupt plays because of his passing lane. MJ also used to get up on the blocks.

Pippen was great too tho. He seemed better from the 2nd 3peat tho. Pippen was great with the help defense too.

[Harison]

Phil once said something like: "I would take Pippen's defense over entire game, but if we need to completely shutdown someone over some possessions, Jordan is the best".

[DMV2]

True, MJ was the GOAT perimeter defender.

[stalkerforlife]

Absolutely true.

[jstern]

He was known as the greatest perimeter defender of all time, but people on ISH have been propping up Pippen in order to bring Jordan's defense down.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u69SCU79_O0


False, especially now with defensive specialists who do nothing but play lock-down perimeter d. But when he wanted to he could be the best perimeter defender on the floor.

definitely best 2-way player of all time.

So defensive specialist are now a new thing?

[andgar923]

MJ was the most consistent/versatile/toughest wing defender of all time.

By versatile I don't mean he can guard every position.

I mean he can do everything at an elite level consistently.

-off the ball defense (preventing)
-help defense
-on the ball stopper
-steals
-blocks
-toughness
-high IQ

And that's including defensive specialists as well.

MJ not only passes the celebrated eye test, but also has the awards and stats to back it up.

On top of that, I can't think of a single player that's not only made as many big defensive plays, but actually won as many games on defense as MJ has.

Theres a reason why MJ was the Bulls' go to stopper during their reign. When Pip couldn't deliver he stepped in.

[Da_Realist]

<------

Tbh I don't even have Jordan in my top2 for SG's, as far as defense... Moncrief being 1st and Cooper 2nd.

As far as perimeter defense you also got Payton, Pippen and Frazier giving him a great run for his money... Plus Rodman and Bobby Jones if you wanna consider them perimeter defenders.. Dennis was at his best, overall defensively, in his younger years and he played more SF, guarding all types of SF's, some SG's, even some PF's and PG's, he was not as good on the post as later on but still really good and better on the perimeter (more mobile too); Bobby used to mostly guard SF's and PF's but also did defend some guards, even some centers.

So yea, that's a no for both questions but ofc that MJ is one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever, even while having to expend much energy on offense, what really made him terrific was the combination between off-ball and on-ball, off-ball was "always there" and just amazing, when he really comitted on-ball and was put on the opponent's best player he was hounding him like crazy. One of the few guards to win DPOY (I feel like DJ would've won in 1982 and Frazier probably would've gotten one too, if the award was already given.. apart from the few others that have won it since it was implemented).



Very fair analysis

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ retired, was replaced by a scrub who had not been in the NBA in the previous two years, and the Chicago defense improved...

1993: Opp PTS/G: 98.9 (2nd of 27)
1994: Opp PTS/G: 94.9 (3rd of 27)

1993: Def Rtg: 106.1 (7th of 27)
1994: Def Rtg: 102.7 (6th of 27)

They took a hit when Horace Grant left, though:

1995: Opp PTS/G: 96.7 (5th of 27)
1995: Def Rtg: 104.3 (2nd of 27)

Pippen in 95' became the only perimeter player in history to lead the league in defensive rating. MJ's highest finish was 5th. The year MJ was awarded the DPOY he was 6th. Of course, he was #1 in sneaker sales.

1988 Defensive Ratings

1. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 98.0
2. Mark Eaton-UTA 100.7
3. Karl Malone*-UTA 100.8
4. Roy Tarpley-DAL 101.0
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 101.3
6. Michael Jordan*-CHI 101.5
7. Bill Laimbeer-DET 102.2
8. John Stockton*-UTA 102.2
9. Dennis Rodman*-DET 102.7
10. Charles Oakley-CHI 102.8
11. Rick Mahorn-DET 103.2
12. Fat Lever-DEN 103.3
13. Benoit Benjamin-LAC 103.4
14. Hot Rod Williams-CLE 103.5
15. Scottie Pippen*-CHI 103.5
16. John Salley-DET 103.7
17. Danny Schayes-DEN 103.8
18. Sidney Green-NYK 104.0
19. Alton Lister-SEA 104.0
20. Ron Harper-CLE 104.2

It is interesting to see how many people who were or would be teammates of MJ are on the list (Salley also became a MJ teammate, albeit in a minor role playing 11 MPG).

[DonDadda59]

MJ retired, was replaced by a scrub who had not been in the NBA in the previous two years, and the Chicago defense improved...

1993: Opp PTS/G: 98.9 (2nd of 27)
1994: Opp PTS/G: 94.9 (3rd of 27)

1993: Def Rtg: 106.1 (7th of 27)
1994: Def Rtg: 102.7 (6th of 27)

They took a hit when Horace Grant left, though:

1995: Opp PTS/G: 96.7 (5th of 27)
1995: Def Rtg: 104.3 (2nd of 27)

Then he came back in '96 and what happened? Right Right, Rodman. That was all Rodman. Then when Scottie missed half of the '98... oh right, all Rodman still.

How about when Jordan won DPOY in '88 (also MVP and scoring title, steal title, etc and so on)? That's right... all Charles Oakley.

[juju151111]

MJ retired, was replaced by a scrub who had not been in the NBA in the previous two years, and the Chicago defense improved...

1993: Opp PTS/G: 98.9 (2nd of 27)
1994: Opp PTS/G: 94.9 (3rd of 27)

1993: Def Rtg: 106.1 (7th of 27)
1994: Def Rtg: 102.7 (6th of 27)

They took a hit when Horace Grant left, though:

1995: Opp PTS/G: 96.7 (5th of 27)
1995: Def Rtg: 104.3 (2nd of 27)
1988 dpoty u mad ?

[ThePhantomCreep]

MJ retired, was replaced by a scrub who had not been in the NBA in the previous two years, and the Chicago defense improved...

1993: Opp PTS/G: 98.9 (2nd of 27)
1994: Opp PTS/G: 94.9 (3rd of 27)

1993: Def Rtg: 106.1 (7th of 27)
1994: Def Rtg: 102.7 (6th of 27)

They took a hit when Horace Grant left, though:

1995: Opp PTS/G: 96.7 (5th of 27)
1995: Def Rtg: 104.3 (2nd of 27)

The drop in PPG and Def Rtg was a leaguewide phenomenon in 1994. There's a reason why opponents scored less on the 1994 Bulls yet they slipped from #2 to #3 in the league.

[sekachu]

You think Jordan was a better perimeter defender than Pippen?



Man to man yes, Most of the players rather against Pippen directly than MJ

[Soundwave]

1992-93 Bulls kinda coasted through the regular season, Pippen and Grant in particular weren't that great. That team just wanted to get to the playoffs and threepeat but that was probably the worst regular season iteration of the Bulls during their championship runs.

94 Bulls had a lot more to prove and teams took them for granted.

[SamuraiSWISH]

94 Bulls had a lot more to prove and teams took them for granted.
And overachieved. Bottom line to anyone who followed the '94, and '95 Bulls. We continue to act like getting bounced in the 2nd round is some massive feat.

LMAO @ Roundball_Rock's agenda consistently being exposed. Dude lives to try and throw shade at Jordan.

MJ is a better man to man defender than Pippen. Easily. Johnny Bach said this as well.

At no point was Pippen having to shoulder a 32 point per game burden for the Bulls. Hell he was putting up like 24 ppg on 42% in the 1994 playoffs as the best player on the team.

MJ is better lock down defender, Pippen was a more versatile defender. Basically a similar dichotomy when comparing LeBron, and Kobe's defensive capabilities.

[veilside23]

round ball rock is bitter because barkley didnt win a ring because of mj that is why he would do everything to discredit MJ. so dont pay attention

[D-Wade316]

Shane Battier anyone? GOAT perimeter defender of the 21st century, EASILY. He's constantly at the top of Def RAPM rankings. Only players ranked higher are interior defenders like Wallace, Garnett. His peak year, 2006, tops Artest's best.

[OldSchoolBBall]

There is NO WAY that guys who had minimal/no team/help defensive impact like Cooper and Moncrief (or even Rodman) are better than Jordan defensively. Only a guy like Pippen or Lebron can even begin to compare, since they are/were stellar team/help defenders. Team and help defense is the largest component of overall defensive impact.

One can pretty easily make the case that Jordan is the best perimeter defender ever. lol @ clowns like Round(no)balls acting like it's an absurd proposition. Phil Jackson himself called Jordan "the best defender of his generation" in like '93. Jerry West called him "the best defensive player in the game" in '92 or '93. Johnny Bach said that he was the best defender. He was voted DPOY by the coaches in '93 and '90 in addition to his actual two DPOY awards and numerous other top 5 finishes in DPOY voting.

[Nikola_]

but but but he didnt shutdown everyone at age 33-35 !!!1

[LeBird]

pippen

false. Pippen

Dude wasn't even the best on his own team.

http://i67.servimg.com/u/f67/11/07/19/92/61187910.jpg

jordan wasnt even the best perimeter defender on his own team.

Wasn't even the best on his team, let alone of all time.

Pippen over Jordan.

ummm he wasn't even the best perimeter defender on his team.


/Thread

[Roundball_Rock]

Phil Jackson himself called Jordan "the best defender of his generation" in like '93. Jerry West called him "the best defensive player in the game" in '92 or '93. Johnny Bach said that he was the best defender.

93'? Pippen's best defensive years came after 93'--1994-1998. Has any perimeter player ever had as dominant a defensive performance as Pippen in Game 3 of the 98' NBA Finals? :bowdown:


94 Bulls had a lot more to prove and teams took them for granted.

That is absurd. They had the best record in the East at the all-star break and after starting 4-8 (Pippen was out 10 of those games) they went on a tear, winning something like 16 of their next 20 and 14 of the next 15 when Pippen returned. :lol at MJ stans acting as if they just came out of nowhere to battle for the top seed; they were in the hunt all season.

[juju151111]

93'? Pippen's best defensive years came after 93'--1994-1998. Has any perimeter player ever had as dominant a defensive performance as Pippen in Game 3 of the 98' NBA Finals? :bowdown:



That is absurd. They had the best record in the East at the all-star break and after starting 4-8 (Pippen was out 10 of those games) they went on a tear, winning something like 16 of their next 20. :lol at MJ stans acting as if they just came out of nowhere to battle for the top seed; they were in the hunt all season.
Nobody was arguing 94-98 Pippen wasn't better then old Jordan. We are talking about 88-93 Mj. What are you talking about? The bulls were 2nd round fodder. They can be compared to the Atlanta hawks of a few years ago or the bulls of last year. They are noting but 2nd round fodder s. Mj is one of the only Perimeter players to ever win dpoty. When he won it he was averaging 35-8-8:wtf: 3stls. Do you realize the amount of energy that takes. Imagine him concentrating more on defense that season if he didn't have the offensive load. In 93 coaches voted Mj the best defender.:applause: You seem clearly mad Mj has a dpoty

[Roundball_Rock]

To put this MJ stan myth (one of many :oldlol: ) to rest here are the East's top teams (the top 6 finishers by the end of the season) as of Christmas Day 1993:

New York 17-6
Atlanta 17-6
Chicago 17-8
Orlando 14-11
Indiana 10-14
Cleveland 10-14

:oldlol: at a team that was top 3 all season in the conference, including 1st halfway through the season, "sneaking up" on people.


Nobody was arguing 94-98 Pippen wasn't better then old Jordan. We are talking about 88-93 Mj.

The thread is about the GOAT perimeter defender, not the best perimeter defender from 1988-1993.

:lol at comparing a team that contended for the top seed all season and had the East's top MVP candidate (ahead of Ewing and Shaq) with a team that wins 45 games every year without any top 15 player.

[juju151111]

To put this MJ stan myth (one of many :oldlol: ) to rest here are the East's top teams (the top 6 finishers by the end of the season) as of Christmas Day 1993:

New York 17-6
Atlanta 17-6
Chicago 17-8
Orlando 14-11
Indiana 10-14
Cleveland 10-14

:oldlol: at a team that was top 3 all season in the conference, including 1st halfway through the season, "sneaking up" on people.



The thread is about the GOAT perimeter defender, not the best perimeter defender from 1988-1993.

:lol at comparing a team that contended for the top seed all season and had the East's top MVP candidate (ahead of Ewing and Shaq) with a team that wins 45 games every year without any top 15 player.
Why do you keep posting these records. The bulls were 2nd round fodder. They didn't even make it to the ecf. They should be compared to all the great 2nd round fodders of all :roll:


:applause: time.:applause:

I know and Mj peak defensive ly is those years which is what people were making the case for and Pippen was never the man to man defender Mj was. He didn't move his feet side to side has well. Only 5 other perimeter players in history have win the Dpoty award and none of them had the Offensive load has MJ.:bowdown:

[OldSchoolBBall]

93'? Pippen's best defensive years came after 93'--1994-1998. Has any perimeter player ever had as dominant a defensive performance as Pippen in Game 3 of the 98' NBA Finals? :bowdown:

Yeah, you might wanna check Jordan's performance in the '93 Knicks series (especially gave 5 iirc) or the entire '90 series vs. Philly.

[kureyşi-gospurs]

No I'd take Sidney Moncrief and Pippen over him.

[kshutts1]

Yeah, you might wanna check Jordan's performance in the '93 Knicks series (especially gave 5 iirc) or the entire '90 series vs. Philly.
Just glanced at the boxscore of game 5. Couldn't find a game recap. The Knicks scored 40 more points than the Jazz in the aforementioned "Pippen" game. So... try again. You did say "iirc" so maybe you had the game wrong, though.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Just glanced at the boxscore of game 5. Couldn't find a game recap. The Knicks scored 40 more points than the Jazz in the aforementioned "Pippen" game. So... try again. You did say "iirc" so maybe you had the game wrong, though.

You do realize that Pippen did not hold the Jazz to 56 points, the Bulls did.

[Just2McFly]

This is why Jordan stans are the worst. SMH at this garbage. I just dont understand why you guys have to prop him up to be best at everything, it's not that serious.

[kshutts1]

You do realize that Pippen did not hold the Jazz to 56 points, the Bulls did.
Of course it was a team accomplishment, but watch the game. People were talking about Pippen being the FMVP for that game alone. That's how dominant his D was. ...then the Migraine Game happened, lol.

[97 bulls]

You do realize that Pippen did not hold the Jazz to 56 points, the Bulls did.
True. But Pippen was the catalyst. He spearheded the attack.

Truth be told, great scorers would not look that great if they literally had to go 1-5. They opposing teams have to respect the other four guys around him. So its still the same concept.

[97 bulls]

Of course it was a team accomplishment, but watch the game. People were talking about Pippen being the FMVP for that game alone. That's how dominant his D was. ...then the Migraine Game happened, lol.
The migrane game happened in 90. Pippen reinjured his back in 98.

But defensively, as far as impact on the court goes, that was as domiant as any 60 pt game.

[Just2McFly]

Is it that hard to just be like, you know what" MJ was one of the greatest defenders ever" and leave it at that?

[kshutts1]

The migrane game happened in 90. Pippen reinjured his back in 98.

But defensively, as far as impact on the court goes, that was as domiant as any 60 pt game.
My bad.. could have sworn he sat out a portion of g5 for a migraine. I trust your historical knowledge more.

[97 bulls]

Scottie Pippen is the greatest perimeter defender ever. Jordan may have been a better man defender(and that is debatable), but considering all aspects, Pippen is the best. In my opinion Pippen owns the most domianant defensive season for a perimeter player, and the most dominant single game in the 98 Finals.

Jordan was great in his own right as well. I think he could still play at a high level even up to 98. Remember the job he did on Rod Strickland? The Bulls just had so much dedensive depth, that he wasn't needed as much.

[jstern]

This is why Jordan stans are the worst. SMH at this garbage. I just dont understand why you guys have to prop him up to be best at everything, it's not that serious.

But why do you find it hard to believe that the player who is considered to be the GOAT by most people involved in the NBA the last like 50 years would also be the GOAT perimeter defender?

It's not like a fanboy just came up with the idea right now and people are agreeing it, Jordan has always been known as on of the GOAT perimeter defenders.

Is it the Pippen comparison? I remember back in the day Jordan being considered the better defender, but in this new Lebron/Kobe era there are a lot of people overrating Pippen in order to put Jordan down. Not that Pippen is not a great player, but it's just the truth.

You have people here posting their numbers in their prime, with quotes from Phil Jackson, and other involved with the Bulls. Do you consider all that garbage, unbelievable, as if people were talking about Vince Carter?

On another note, you're 23, you didn't even watch the 90s. (Sometimes people's comments makes me check how old they are). All you're strickly going by is by the current hype of what people say, false and truths, coming up with a conclusion not based on anything. That's how it is when it comes to talking about eras we never saw. For example, we have people in this thread talking about having defensive specialist, as if that's a new thing. And their using their limited knowledge, using logic to go, "Defensive specialists focus on defense only, so that means they're better than anyone who also played offense." That's good human logic, in the sense that it's so beyond animals, but it's logic based on very limited knowledge and using that limited knowledge to come to a conclusion about players that they never saw play.

[jayfan]

Certainly not that^ guy... That's Junior Bridgeman, this is Sidney Moncrief:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/2011/news/features/david_aldridge/10/31/nba-lockout-next-steps/1031-sidney-moncrief-300.jpg

I assume you wanted to post a pic of him

Those Bucks teams were nice. Should have made the Finals at least once.

[Round Mound]

Pippen. Yet, MJ Was Probably The Best Defensive 2 of All Time.

[crisoner]

He was good....honestly can't think of any other player better.

This is what puts MJ over other players is his defense.

Magic and Bird could not lock players down...Jordan could.

[diamenz]

i've got to put pippen as the goat perimeter defender. that athleticism combined with length was just insane.

although, mj does have an edge in the defensive iq department, but some will disagree with me on that.

it must have given players and coaches nightmares going into games vs the two.

[Odinn]

1st 3peat Jordan is probably the goat perimeter defender.

[SexSymbol]

Bill russell is the best defender of all time by fart
second would be rodman
then you get to specialists in no particular order
allen
pippen
moncrief
artest
payton
duncan
robinson
hakeem

and after a 5-10 more names I'd put Jordan in, Kobe's probably top 35-40, LeBron's somewhere in the top 100, Wade top 70. Really a hard list to do

[diamenz]

Bill russell is the best defender of all time by fart
second would be rodman
then you get to specialists in no particular order
allen
pippen
moncrief
artest
payton
duncan
robinson
hakeem

and after a 5-10 more names I'd put Jordan in, Kobe's probably top 35-40, LeBron's somewhere in the top 100, Wade top 70. Really a hard list to do

the op asked for perimeter players doe :)