Put Bosh back in Toronto.

[Haymaker]

ECF? 2nd round exit?

[jzek]

Playoff fodder like the Hawks.

[Just2McFly]

Playoff fodder like the Hawks.
can some explain what the hell this is supposed to mean? because it seems sports is the only sector that i can think of in life where not being the ABSOLUTE best is a completely useless endeavor.

Toronto with Bosh would a problem to any team imo

[Sakkreth]

Without taking anything from us ? ECF, maybe finals.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Any possibility he opts out and goes to the Rockets?

[Haymaker]

Any possibility he opts out and goes to the Rockets?

Bosh wouldn't touch the West with a 10 feet pole.

[red1]

The problem when he was here was that he never had a real centre beside him. Bargnani is f*cking shit and jonas solves all of those problems

[ralph_i_el]

Bosh wouldn't touch the West with a 10 feet pole.
he is from dallas...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

can some explain what the hell this is supposed to mean? because it seems sports is the only sector that i can think of in life where not being the ABSOLUTE best is a completely useless endeavor.

Toronto with Bosh would a problem to any team imo

Playoff fodder usually refers to one round and out teams.

Does making the playoffs and being eliminated within a week...make them impressive?

[Just2McFly]

Playoff fodder usually refers to one round and out teams.

Does making the playoffs and being eliminated within a week...make them impressive?
Except for the fact that doesn't describe the Hawks at all and my point still stands. Only in sports is it looked down upon to be consistently good.

[alanLA92]

Toronto already got rid of a Center who keeps shooting the 3's last year, why get another one? :lol

[Haymaker]

Toronto already got rid of a Center who keeps shooting the 3's last year, why get another one? :lol

Bosh was an all around star back in Toronto. James turned him into a spot up shooter.

[alanLA92]

Bosh was an all around star back in Toronto. James turned him into a spot up shooter.

Exactly, until he re-adjusts to being PF as he was pre-collusion he's be that player.

[Burgz V2]

Playoff fodder usually refers to one round and out teams.

Does making the playoffs and being eliminated within a week...make them impressive?

you're right it doesn't. but that wasn't the question. Our biggest weakness right now is we have no legitimate post scorers.

Now, with Bosh, is that likely to happen again? Maybe. With a loaded draft and free agency looming it's tough to predict the near future of any team in the East. However, Bosh would definitely make us a more competitive team, I think that much is undeniable.

[Le Shaqtus]

Toronto already got rid of a Center who keeps shooting the 3's last year, why get another one? :lol

Bosh isn't even a center though, he's a PF. It's dumb that they make him play C when he doesn't have the tools for him to be efficient at it, but he's an ok rim protector.

I think they should bench Battier, move Bosh to PF and Anderson to starting C.

[alanLA92]

Bosh isn't even a center though, he's a PF. It's dumb that they make him play C when he doesn't have the tools for him to be efficient at it, but he's an ok rim protector.

I think they should bench Battier, move Bosh to PF and Anderson to starting C.

But that requires a good coach to be at the helm in Miami :lol

[hawkfan]

Toronto should trade for Kevin Love.

[Legends66NBA7]

Without taking anything from us ? ECF, maybe finals.

Let's focus on getting out of the first round with a team that possibly leads with Bosh/DeRozan/Lowry.


can some explain what the hell this is supposed to mean? because it seems sports is the only sector that i can think of in life where not being the ABSOLUTE best is a completely useless endeavor.

Toronto with Bosh would a problem to any team imo

You compete to be the best in sports. You don't compete to be 2nd, 4th, 10th, 18th, 25th, etc... He's basically saying that this team isn't worthy to be called a contender (Miami is the only true contender and elite team in the East) yet and it's not bad enough to be a team that is looking to throw a season for a high pick (only Philadelphia and Orlando looked like they were throwing a season from the start).


The problem when he was here was that he never had a real centre beside him. Bargnani is f*cking shit and jonas solves all of those problems

10/8/1 isn't anything special, but he's young. He needs to work on his overall game, especially his help defense and turnovers.


Except for the fact that doesn't describe the Hawks at all and my point still stands. Only in sports is it looked down upon to be consistently good.

How does your point stand ? The Hawks haven't won more than 1 playoff round in their entire tenure (a 46 year span) since moving to Atlanta. They have been 1 and done in the last 3 years (13 times overall since moving to Atlanta).

In the most recent 7 year span, nobody thought they were a serious threat to go far and they were right. They didn't even acquire anybody from the FA classes to strengthen their team and put them over the top as true contenders.

It's one thing to be a good team, but you need to separate yourself to be great. And greatness comes from winning titles. Otherwise, you're an afterthought with only the team's fans of the ones who didn't win or didn't make it far caring enough to hypothesis "what if ?" scenarios.

[Legends66NBA7]

Toronto should trade for Kevin Love.

Toronto shouldn't make any moves that will be acquired to get a rental player who probably won't stay with the team to begin with. Love also seems like an obvious front runner, so he'll probably want to go to a team like Boston or LA Lakers. I'm not a fan of the guy, but he would at least fit on the team, pending he follows the system.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Legends shitting on Powerglove. :oldlol:

I stand corrected..the Hawks are mosdef playoff fodder

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

you're right it doesn't. but that wasn't the question. Our biggest weakness right now is we have no legitimate post scorers.

Now, with Bosh, is that likely to happen again? Maybe. With a loaded draft and free agency looming it's tough to predict the near future of any team in the East. However, Bosh would definitely make us a more competitive team, I think that much is undeniable.

My post was directed at another poster, not the OP. Bosh w/ the Rapz make them damn near contenders, imo.

[Legends66NBA7]

My post was directed at another poster, not the OP. Bosh w/ the Rapz make them damn near contenders, imo.

Yeah, I feel they could be a contender with Bosh while retaining the majority of their core pieces.

Bosh doesn't need to be the guy he once was in Toronto and I think understands that. He just needs to bring the defense and mid-range/3 point shooting. He can let DeMar get to the free throw line since that hasn't been Bosh's game for 4 years now. It's clear Bosh lost a step in quick moves to the basket.

[JUDGE WITNESS]

ecf, possibly contenders

[Just2McFly]

You compete to be the best in sports. You don't compete to be 2nd, 4th, 10th, 18th, 25th, etc... He's basically saying that this team isn't worthy to be called a contender (Miami is the only true contender and elite team in the East) yet and it's not bad enough to be a team that is looking to throw a season for a high pick (only Philadelphia and Orlando looked like they were throwing a season from the start).


How does your point stand ? The Hawks haven't won more than 1 playoff round in their entire tenure (a 46 year span) since moving to Atlanta. They have been 1 and done in the last 3 years (13 times overall since moving to Atlanta).

In the most recent 7 year span, nobody thought they were a serious threat to go far and they were right. They didn't even acquire anybody from the FA classes to strengthen their team and put them over the top as true contenders.

It's one thing to be a good team, but you need to separate yourself to be great. And greatness comes from winning titles. Otherwise, you're an afterthought with only the team's fans of the ones who didn't win or didn't make it far caring enough to hypothesis "what if ?" scenarios.

You compete, but you can only be the best you can be, same as in life. All of this "championship or bust" mentality is garbage. That's the same mentality that leads to teams throwing away season in hopes of winning lottery to choose unproven products instead of investing and improving in what they have.


The Hawks used to have the reputation of one of the Worst Franchises in the League, now they have gotten their stuff together can put of out a competitive product. How is that not impressive?

Are the Clippers, another team that hasn't gotten to the conference finals in god knows how many decades, if ever.... regardless of what city they were in, are they playoff fodder as well?

Besides the Grizzles making the conference finals last year, are they playoff fodder as well? They lost in the first round so many times I cannot even count. I mean they never even made it out of the first round until Z-bo era.

I just don't understand, not every team is championship material and you have to judge them accordingly. Why isn't impressive for the Hawks to make the playoffs when they frankly didn't have much talent at all and had a new coach? Am I saying we give them a parade? No, but I'm not going to shit on them either and give them retarded, ass-backward compliments either. This shit is dumb as hell.

Like I said, sports fans are the most irrational, convoluted people to talk to. How is making the playoffs and being competitive which what the Hawks were, a bad thing?

So should the Bulls just blow it up because they are "playoff fodder" as well?

How about the Warriors? They haven't made a conference finals in a while, trade everyone or have them sit out with injuries for season to see who they can draft. :rolleyes:

This is just dumb.

Are we going to start dismissing the 80's Bucks or Hawks teams just because they didn't go far? Respect teams relative to their talent level and competition, not everyone can be a contender.

[Just2McFly]

Legends shitting on Powerglove. :oldlol:

I stand corrected..the Hawks are mosdef playoff fodder
Anyone that takes a differing (in this case wrong) point of view you dick ride...of course

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Anyone that takes a differing (in this case wrong) point of view you dick ride...of course

Differing point of view opposed to...who? You? Legends dropped knowledge and firmly educated you, kid. :oldlol:

[Just2McFly]

Differing point of view opposed to...who? You? Legends dropped knowledge and firmly educated you, kid. :oldlol:
Firmly educated me on what exactly?

Take your time and point it out. Let's see if you can master the art of posting and actually saying something instead of hiding behind another poster. I'll wait.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The Hawks haven't won more than 1 playoff round in their entire tenure (a 46 year span) since moving to Atlanta.

This bit says it all..the very definition of playoff fodder

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Acting like I have never posted anything worthwhile is comical. You and I both know I've forgotten more basketball than your tiny brain has ever comprehended.

Ask your boy legends about my basketball acumen.

[Just2McFly]

This bit says it all..the very definition of playoff fodder
I think you have comprehension issues, so I'll restate the whole point for you bit by bit. My problem is with the backhanded phrase " playoff fodder", as if making it to the playoff and being competitive isn't a good thing.

To be honest most of the teams in this league would have be insane to buy into the "championship or bust" mentality. You have to be realistic, and realize that most teams just don't have that kind of talent and aren't well rounded enough to entertain those thoughts just yet.

I don't know about you, but I'm sure that Wizards fans would be fine having a competitive playoff team over one that rebuilds every five years due to their top star basically either losing his knees or retiring for a third time.

The Clippers and Grizzles would be considered playoff fodder in Legends and your world even though they are great teams that are basically fringe contenders to me, meaning they are a couple of good moves away from being a championship team.

The Hawks with Horford fully healthy and Milsap will do damage in the east, the only team that without a doubt will beat them is Miami and they always play Miami tight so be warned.

The Bulls have made it out of the first round three times in last decade, I don't they deserve backhanded descriptions like playoff fodder either. They are a tough out. None of these teams are just getting b*tchslapped and walked over like you guys presume.

I guess I'm wrong for appreciating consistency, even if it doesn't result in rings.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The topic we're discussing (not in the OP) doesn't warrant paragraph after paragraph...saying pretty much nothing.

The premise is very simple. Atlanta, according to their history as legends pointed out, is literally the sports definition of playoff fodder.

[Burgz V2]

My post was directed at another poster, not the OP. Bosh w/ the Rapz make them damn near contenders, imo.

That's fair.

I hope it does. The East may change drastically next year. With Boston and NYK looking to rebuild and retool respectively anything can happen, especially with some good players in the draft and possible trades.

It's happened before, we won the division in 2006-07, Boston makes the huge trade for their pick in the '07 draft (basically the rights to Jeff Green) and clears enough cap to work a KG deal soon after. And that was it.

If we get Bosh at least we will be able to compete amidst those changes. That 07 year we made some questionable moves (namely, the Kapono 6 mil a year deal :facepalm) and didn't actually add any decent talent (Jamario Moon, need more be said?). We need to be smart this offseason and be willing to pay up for a guy like Bosh at the expense of some others (Salmons, Fields)

[Just2McFly]

Yeah you're just hard headed and repetitive. At least Legends can articulate his thoughts.

[j3lademaster]

ecf, possibly contenders:roll: only in the east can you be a conference finals team and not necessarily a contender.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

That's fair.

I hope it does. The East may change drastically next year. With Boston and NYK looking to rebuild and retool respectively anything can happen, especially with some good players in the draft and possible trades.

It's happened before, we won the division in 2006-07, Boston makes the huge trade for their pick in the '07 draft (basically the rights to Jeff Green) and clears enough cap to work a KG deal soon after. And that was it.

If we get Bosh at least we will be able to compete amidst those changes. That 07 year we made some questionable moves (namely, the Kapono 6 mil a year deal :facepalm) and didn't actually add any decent talent (Jamario Moon, need more be said?). We need to be smart this offseason and be willing to pay up for a guy like Bosh at the expense of some others (Salmons, Fields)

Dude still has 3-4 years left of legit basketball...for sure.

Posters criticize him for standing around the perimeter, but he's only doing what Miami and Spo is asking of him (strategic reasons to clear space for Wade/Bron to drive down the lane when necessary).. Its also part of the reason he only pulls down about 6 rebounds per.

I'm not a big fan of the guy (think he's bit of a frontrunner)...in the right system, though, dude could legit turn a franchise around long as the pieces around him "mesh".

[Legends66NBA7]

You compete, but you can only be the best you can be, same as in life. All of this "championship or bust" mentality is garbage. That's the same mentality that leads to teams throwing away season in hopes of winning lottery to choose unproven products instead of investing and improving in what they have.

Both sides have a point, but since I detest tanking I can't say I like the methods of throwing a season and it's fans.

Tanking is a high risk/high reward type of situation. It's risky because your banking on luck, but if you get the right player he can change the course of your franchise. Few players can do this, but if the right players are already in place then it would just accelerate that process.


The Hawks used to have the reputation of one of the Worst Franchises in the League, now they have gotten their stuff together can put of out a competitive product. How is that not impressive?

I think they got unlucky this year with all their injuries, but they also have the reputation of not doing anymore than a second round exit. 46 years is a long time. Now comes the challenge (with having competent management and coaching), what can they do take the next step.


Are the Clippers, another team that hasn't gotten to the conference finals in god knows how many decades, if ever.... regardless of what city they were in, are they playoff fodder as well?

The Clippers at one point were this:


http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/2000/0417_large.jpg

For a lot of reasons off course. Their success has depended a lot on the new management and ve-toed trade of Paul. If this is direct comparison to the Hawks, it's not comparable considering what years they competed in recently, since they are in 2 different conferences.

I do agree that they are more or less in the same bracket as the Hawks as far as history goes, but the Clippers do have the higher upside to get better. Funny enough, the Hawks could have drafted Chris Paul back in 2005.


Besides the Grizzles making the conference finals last year, are they playoff fodder as well? They lost in the first round so many times I cannot even count. I mean they never even made it out of the first round until Z-bo era.

Pretty much like the Clippers, different conferences and the Grizzlies had to make a tough transition coming from Vancouver where they were hugely mismanaged. They just finished their 19th season, again, not really comparable to the Hawks level of mediocrity. But they've already gotten to the WCF (like you said), which is more than what the Hawks have done since moving to Atlanta.

If anything, that's positive to them. Have they won the title ? No, but they do have a pretty good management, just not the ownership that is willing to spend on it.


I just don't understand, not every team is championship material and you have to judge them accordingly. Why isn't impressive for the Hawks to make the playoffs when they frankly didn't have much talent at all and had a new coach? Am I saying we give them a parade? No, but I'm not going to shit on them either and give them retarded, ass-backward compliments either. This shit is dumb as hell.

This year ? Well, it's considered unimpressive because the Hawks did in a relatively weak conference and made it with a 38-44 record. What is there to be impressed about ? That they limped in ? That the teams chasing them were even more hindered from incompetence ? If Indiana didn't have an identity crisis, they would have probably been finished off sooner in the 1st round.


Like I said, sports fans are the most irrational, convoluted people to talk to. How is making the playoffs and being competitive which what the Hawks were, a bad thing?

I never said that it was a bad thing. Infact, I said:


It's one thing to be a good team, but you need to separate yourself to be great. And greatness comes from winning titles. Otherwise, you're an afterthought with only the team's fans of the ones who didn't win or didn't make it far caring enough to hypothesis "what if ?" scenarios.

When I said it's one thing to be good (meaning the Hawks), I meant overall in that span of 7 years. Although, I don't really consider their 08 and 14 runs good overall teams (competitive playoffs series for the most part). But now, what have they done to take it further ?

Fans will get frustrated from not doing anything else with their talent but 1 or 2nd round ceiling, though.

Don't you recall seeing what Raptors fans have said over and over again about how different things would have turned out with our history if we had done something differently in the draft or how we could have changed things if we added a certain player in free agency ? They say it because they don't want to be stuck in mediocrity.


So should the Bulls just blow it up because they are "playoff fodder" as well?

The Bulls were actually supposed to tank this year when they traded Deng. But because of how decimated and weak the conference was (all while Joakim Noah playing inspired basketball), they ended up being the 4th seed.

If it's their overall history, they already won titles and they are still remembered and compared to on a daily basis. They aren't forgotten.


How about the Warriors? They haven't made a conference finals in a while, trade everyone or have them sit out with injuries for season to see who they can draft. :rolleyes:

See Clippers and Grizzlies. But again, they are a team that's already won a title ever more recently than the Hawks (yes, I know it was in 75).


Are we going to start dismissing the 80's Bucks or Hawks teams just because they didn't go far? Respect teams relative to their talent level and competition, not everyone can be a contender.

I respect those 80's Bucks teams a lot. The Hawks were pretty good too, but didn't have any other major talent outside Nique Wilkins. However, they are more or less forgotten for not winning. Only hardcore fans remember them now or even care to look them up.

On topic, not everyone can be contender... but everyone should thrive to be one. It's just can't happen every year with everybody, which where I think were misunderstanding each other. Really, my view point is on teams that don't compete any higher than the 1st or 2nd round exits. That's why they are considered fodder. That's the why the Hawks are looked down upon and are considered one of the worst.

The NBA as a whole is hard to win, especially since the NBA introduced the 3 point line into the league. Only 9 teams have won the title (Lakers, Bulls, Celtics, Spurs, Heat, Pistons, Rockets, Sixers, Mavericks) since 1980. Don't you think a team like the Hawks should have gotten over the hump by then ? Infact, I do feel a couple of teams should have.

Just like from someone who is a pro-tanker, there's no way that 4 teams could be contending every year while the other 26 teams need to be tanking or their just "wasting their time getting to the playoffs" (I've talked to other pro tanker Raptor fans about this and that's what they come back at me with).

[Burgz V2]

Dude still has 3-4 years left of legit basketball...for sure.

Posters criticize him for standing around the perimeter, but he's only doing what Miami and Spo is asking of him (strategic reasons to clear space for Wade/Bron to drive down the lane when necessary).. Its also part of the reason he only pulls down about 6 rebounds per.

I'm not a big fan of the guy (think he's bit of a frontrunner)...in the right system, though, dude could legit turn a franchise around long as the pieces around him "mesh".

Raptors did well with Patterson playing at the stretch 4. The size disadvantage on the boards didn't really show until we played the bigger teams, definitely hurt us in the Brooklyn series, but his shooting gave us an advantage. While there is no reason to believe he can't still do it in the post, Bosh's 3 pt ability would still be useful. If JV progresses again this offseason, he would be a great complement. Sadly it would probably mean Amir would have to go, just too expensive to keep if we are seriously looking at a guy like Bosh.

[Legends66NBA7]

Raptors did well with Patterson playing at the stretch 4. The size disadvantage on the boards didn't really show until we played the bigger teams, definitely hurt us in the Brooklyn series, but his shooting gave us an advantage. While there is no reason to believe he can't still do it in the post, Bosh's 3 pt ability would still be useful. If JV progresses again this offseason, he would be a great complement. Sadly it would probably mean Amir would have to go, just too expensive to keep if we are seriously looking at a guy like Bosh.

Amir would be best suited in a back up role anyway you look at it. He gets too banged up to play heavy minutes and it shows up in his production.

After next season, were going to have a lot of players of the books. We probably look at adding someone during that time or the 2016 off season (heard a lot of rumors that were going after Durant). I think we don't go after Bosh.

[Legends66NBA7]

By the way, if there was any further misunderstanding, I don't think teams making deep playoff runs and the NBA Finals (but falling short of the NBA title) should NOT be a negative against the team.

[Haymaker]

Thanks for ruining the thread. :facepalm :banghead:

[Legends66NBA7]

Thanks for ruining the thread. :facepalm :banghead:

I still stuck to your topic.

:confusedshrug:

[Haymaker]

I still stuck to your topic.

:confusedshrug:

Oh I know bro, it's just the other dudes. :cheers:

[tpols]

Lowry
Vasquez
DeRozan
Bosh
Jonas


Id like to see that lineup play.. theyd be current wizards territory.. pretty good but not great

[Legends66NBA7]

Lowry
Vasquez
DeRozan
Bosh
Jonas


Id like to see that lineup play.. theyd be current wizards territory.. pretty good but not great

Terrence Ross starts over Vasquez. I would say that potential lineup would be over the current Wizards.


As the current East stands after this season:

Top tier (Elite - Already won titles and make deep playoff runs; pretty much can keep them together or decide whatever else to keep them elite)

Miami

Second tier (Close to elite - Can make deep runs, but not good enough to make the Finals. Need more time with core or more pieces around them)

Indiana

Third tier (Up and comers - Teams that are a few pieces away from make long runs, but could also dip into no man's land)

Washington
Brooklyn
Chicago
Toronto
Charlotte
Atlanta

Fourth tier (No man's land - Aren't necessarily good or bad, but are floating. Some can be lucky, but otherwise have tight situations. Could make low seeds in the playoffs)

New York
Cleveland
Detroit
Boston

Fifth tier (Rebuilding - Won't be in the playoff hunt and have a long way to go before they can even be called a good/great team that can contend for titles or deep playoff runs)

Orlando
Philadelphia
Milwaukee


Toronto could make the jump to where Indiana is, but it is uncertain if they can become elite.

[fatboy11]

We're dropping current Bosh onto the current Raptors roster?

Easy -- they're an ECF contender, maybe a favorite.

Bosh is under-utilized with the Heat. The current roster would be the best team he'd have had around him in all his years in Toronto. I don't think he's in his prime anymore, but he'd still play like an All-Star caliber player and have a pretty good supporting cast.

[Legends66NBA7]

We're dropping current Bosh onto the current Raptors roster?

Easy -- they're an ECF contender, maybe a favorite.

Bosh is under-utilized with the Heat. The current roster would be the best team he'd have had around him in all his years in Toronto. I don't think he's in his prime anymore, but he'd still play like an All-Star caliber player and have a pretty good supporting cast.

I'd reserve to not say anything is easy when it comes to the Raptors, but I think they would be right there with the best in the East. Toronto this season held its own against the West and with Bosh they would be even formidable.

[BurningHammer]

If Bosh accepted to play the same role as with the Heat, then conference final.

Otherwise, another first round fodder.

[Bigsmoke]

I'd reserve to not say anything is easy when it comes to the Raptors, but I think they would be right there with the best in the East. Toronto this season held its own against the West and with Bosh they would be even formidable.

I don't see it.

The Raptors might increase their win total to 50 wins or so but Bosh isn't going to lead them anywhere

[PJR]

First of all, you just can't drop him in Toronto, as there is a salary cap, and Toronto would have to give up some of the depth they've accumulated over the past couple years to make room for Bosh's salary. But for the sake of the discussion, let's say you'd drop Bosh on the current team, with them losing nothing...


They'd lose to the current Wizards or Pacers in 6. And would struggle with the Hawks with a healthy Horford.

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't see it.

The Raptors might increase their win total to 50 wins or so but Bosh isn't going to lead them anywhere

Bosh wouldn't have to be the lone leader and take the lion share of the responsibility.

Like I've said before, the offense we run now in Toronto depends on a lot of ball movement and diverse scoring. I could see a lot of balance between Lowry/DeRozan/Bosh. Perhaps Bosh scores the most out of the bunch or perhaps he falls into a secondary role, but this would be the best Raptor team he had overall.

Then again, I wouldn't really be surprised if we didn't really go THAT far. This is still a very young team and still needs more pieces to add.