Hubie Brown: Why Michael Jordan Would Dominate Today

[jstern]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JttE4UT74k

To me what was interesting was his personality. So different.

And let me just say Oscar and Michael played in two totally different eras. And he's not being bias, because he kind of talks somewhat negatives to big men in the 50s and 60s, no nostalgia. The Jordan era wasn't even his era. So this is a man who's being honest.

[tanner892]

Hey Hey, COME ARNNNNN COMEEE ARNNNNNNNNNNNN

[russwest0]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

The 80s and 90s had some amazing basketball no doubt. Far better than todays collusion era league.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

-can't use your hands or forearms on the offensive player
-without handchecking, players today have a green light to score/get off shots
-oscar and jordan would dominate today
-league banned handchecking so that perimeter and half-court scoring would increase

3:00, tho, is where Hubie really hits the nail on the head. Pampered babies of today..whining about defenses being physical is dumbfounding. :oldlol:

[Bless Mathews]

-can't use your hands or forearms on the offensive player
-without handchecking, players today have a green light to score/get off shots
-oscar and jordan would dominate today
-league banned handchecking so that perimeter and half-court scoring would increase

3:00, tho, is where Hubie really hits the nail on the head. Pampered babies of today..whining about defenses being physical is dumbfounding. :oldlol:
Word.

It's a joke how soft players are these days.

Jordan would average 40 in today's league.

I was playing bball this weekend and some cats younger than us were calling touch bullshit.

Like going to the hole and just trying to get a foul. Crazy Smh.

We almost got into it.

"Fucc that nigha we playin 90's era rules. "

[jstern]

To me it's not that today's players are worse, it's just the rules. I think that if you take a version of today's players who in an alternate universe played with 90s rules and pit them against their current version, the ones from the alternate universe would be better, even if their stats were slightly lower.

I normally play against this guy who hand checks the hell out of me, and it's the defense that I'm used to. This guy is old, but that hand checking makes it tough. But when I play against a young person, it doesn't matter how aggressive they're playing, I just blow right by them. (I copied Jordan's game pretty heavily when I was a teen. No And1 stuff, I get the ball and have a lay up in under 3 seconds).

And because of the hand checking I've been forced to develop this outside game, the footwork from outside that would just not be there without playing against the guy who hand checks the hell out of me.

[plowking]

Why is it then that most perimeter players are shooting a lower percentage than ever?

A guy like Kiki Vandeweghe was putting up 30ppg on 56%. Guys like English are putting up 30ppg on 50+%.

Then you have guys like Durant, credited as one of the best offensive talents ever in terms of scoring, put up 30+ppg on 50+% for the first time this year. Interesting how one of the best scorers ever only does it for the first time now, while you have players like Kiki and English who never get talked about by modern fans today doing it back in the 80's, and not nearly as highly regarded.

Let me guess, Kiki and English would be the best players today? They'd be scoring 40ppg too since it was better defense back then?

[PHILA]

But when I play against a young person, it doesn't matter how aggressive they're playing, I just blow right by them. (I copied Jordan's game pretty heavily when I was a teen. No And1 stuff, I get the ball and have a lay up in under 3 seconds).

Robertson and Jordan both had excellent first steps off the dribble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9Gbb9_XAtU&t=17m27s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmjUpA3UVlA&t=8m44s

[DonDadda59]

Why is it then that most perimeter players are shooting a lower percentage than ever?

A guy like Kiki Vandeweghe was putting up 30ppg on 56%. Guys like English are putting up 30ppg on 50+%.

Then you have guys like Durant, credited as one of the best offensive talents ever in terms of scoring, put up 30+ppg on 50+% for the first time this year. Interesting how one of the best scorers ever only does it for the first time now, while you have players like Kiki and English who never get talked about by modern fans today doing it back in the 80's, and not nearly as highly regarded.

Let me guess, Kiki and English would be the best players today? They'd be scoring 40ppg too since it was better defense back then?

3 point shooting. Look at what Wade on one leg shot this season taking 0.6 3s per game. Same with Parker the last few seasons.

No coincidence they're shooting high percentages routinely (50%+) even though they're small guards, Wade being an undersized SG.

Then realize both guys are playing in their 5th championship series, each has 3 rings, each has 1 finals MVP. Again, no coincidence.

Basketball IQ aside, there's no question perimeter scoring exploded once the league went all out in eliminating contact by defenders. None whatsoever.

[PHILA]

Another example is Hal Greer as seen in video below. Very comparable to someone like Iverson in speed and quickness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8&t=4m4s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8&t=16m33s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bzGDqtDHqg&t=14m21s

[jstern]

Why is it then that most perimeter players are shooting a lower percentage than ever?

A guy like Kiki Vandeweghe was putting up 30ppg on 56%. Guys like English are putting up 30ppg on 50+%.

Then you have guys like Durant, credited as one of the best offensive talents ever in terms of scoring, put up 30+ppg on 50+% for the first time this year. Interesting how one of the best scorers ever only does it for the first time now, while you have players like Kiki and English who never get talked about by modern fans today doing it back in the 80's, and not nearly as highly regarded.

Let me guess, Kiki and English would be the best players today? They'd be scoring 40ppg too since it was better defense back then?

Because today many, many players take more 3 point shots per season than entire teams in the 80s.

[DatAsh]

Why is it then that most perimeter players are shooting a lower percentage than ever?

A guy like Kiki Vandeweghe was putting up 30ppg on 56%. Guys like English are putting up 30ppg on 50+%.

Then you have guys like Durant, credited as one of the best offensive talents ever in terms of scoring, put up 30+ppg on 50+% for the first time this year. Interesting how one of the best scorers ever only does it for the first time now, while you have players like Kiki and English who never get talked about by modern fans today doing it back in the 80's, and not nearly as highly regarded.

Let me guess, Kiki and English would be the best players today? They'd be scoring 40ppg too since it was better defense back then?

Perimeter players of this era shoot a lot more 3s, so you'd have to compare the TS% to really get a true picture. Perimeter players - particularly stars - also seem to shoot a bit more FTA per FGA than they did in that era.

[clipps]

I was playing bball this weekend and some cats younger than us were calling touch bullshit.

Like going to the hole and just trying to get a foul. Crazy Smh.

We almost got into it.

"Fucc that nigha we playin 90's era rules. "

Holy crap this. Kids these days flop as well. I was posting someone up and the guy falls backwards to almost no contact and calls a charging.

[jstern]

Another example is Hal Greer as seen in video below. Very comparable to someone like Iverson in speed and quickness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8&t=4m4s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8&t=16m33s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bzGDqtDHqg&t=14m21s

I wish I had more time to watch these videos.

[andgar923]

Word.

It's a joke how soft players are these days.

Jordan would average 40 in today's league.

I was playing bball this weekend and some cats younger than us were calling touch bullshit.

Like going to the hole and just trying to get a foul. Crazy Smh.

We almost got into it.

"Fucc that nigha we playin 90's era rules. "
Same here.

Only way I can keep up with young players is by being physical and hand checking the f*ck outta them.

And I've literally said "i'm playing you old school" I completely throw them off their game.

Young dudes don't know...

They don't know....

[leopoldstotch]

one of the items in my bucket list: sit down with hubie brown for 15 minutes and chat about basketball. anything basketball.. players? fundamentals? history? best arenas? global impact?

[finchyyy]

Physical/dirty defense doesn't equal great defense though. Teams today are much smarter with their defense.

[atljonesbro]

Same here.

Only way I can keep up with young players is by being physical and hand checking the f*ck outta them.

And I've literally said "i'm playing you old school" I completely throw them off their game.

Young dudes don't know...

They don't know....
So basically you're admitting that players resort to "physical" play when they are skilled enough to play real defense?

[DonDadda59]

Physical/dirty defense doesn't equal great defense though. Teams today are much smarter with their defense.

How so, because they play 'zone' 3% of the time (league average)? Tell me what seasons have the record all time for highest league wide eFG%.

Again, perimeter scoring has exploded since the league made a wholesale effort to curb physicality there. Look at the scoring leaders the season before and the season after the no touching/3 second violation rules were implemented.

Then come back here and explain why so many perimeter players (some like Iverson and Kobe who had been in the league for 10 seasons) all of a sudden all had a career scoring year....

[jstern]

So basically you're admitting that players resort to "physical" play when they are skilled enough to play real defense?

Players didn't stop physical play because they were more skilled, they stopped because of the rule changes. If 90s rules were in place today, they would be more physical. Would that make them less skilled? Stop trying to twist words.

It's like little kids logic you're using there.

Another way that you can look at his point is that even though he's not as athlectic as the younger guys, he can still slow them down because of his hand checking. Now imagine if a young NBA player was allowed to hand check.

[Just2McFly]

Why is it then that most perimeter players are shooting a lower percentage than ever?

A guy like Kiki Vandeweghe was putting up 30ppg on 56%. Guys like English are putting up 30ppg on 50+%.

Then you have guys like Durant, credited as one of the best offensive talents ever in terms of scoring, put up 30+ppg on 50+% for the first time this year. Interesting how one of the best scorers ever only does it for the first time now, while you have players like Kiki and English who never get talked about by modern fans today doing it back in the 80's, and not nearly as highly regarded.

Let me guess, Kiki and English would be the best players today? They'd be scoring 40ppg too since it was better defense back then?

Zone defense has definitely made it harder to score in this era.

[jstern]

Zone defense has definitely made it harder to score in this era.

You're talking out of your butt. Just because you want to believe what you want to believe. You don't care about the actual facts.

[plowking]

Perimeter players of this era shoot a lot more 3s, so you'd have to compare the TS% to really get a true picture. Perimeter players - particularly stars - also seem to shoot a bit more FTA per FGA than they did in that era.

Kiki did it on 62% TS, and Kevin at 63%.

We are literally comparing a player about 50% of this board hasn't heard about, to a player that analysts, coaches and fans have labelled one of the best scorers ever.

Take Carmelo as the next example. Constantly discussed as one of the purest scorers ever to grace the league. Highest TS%? Never been above 57%.

How about Dwyane Wade that Dondadda brought up? 59% is the highest he's reached.

So is Kiki a better scorer than all these guys? Is Alex English a better scorer than all these guys? You can add Kobe to the list too. Is Alex English a better scorer than Kobe Bryant? He was apparently playing in a tougher defensive era, and was scoring just as many points. He has to be, right?
I've just gone ahead and compared the two eras and efficiency, and for some reason, this era is constantly coming up short, despite having all these advantages. Weird, isn't it?

[plowking]

Zone defense has definitely made it harder to score in this era.

It most definitely has. Perimeter players continue to get less efficient and score less in general, yet somehow I'm meant to believe it was harder to score in the one where they were pouring points in?

Then you have the typical excuse of "these players are just stupid and taking stupid shots". Of course. Coaching has gotten worse, and they are telling their players to take dumber shots.

[Beastmode88]

I've said this multiple times. Imagine bran playing against the bad boys? :roll: :roll: He would be a jump shooter. :banana: :banana:

[jstern]

Kiki did it on 62% TS, and Kevin at 63%.

We are literally comparing a player about 50% of this board hasn't heard about, to a player that analysts, coaches and fans have labelled one of the best scorers ever.

Take Carmelo as the next example. Constantly discussed as one of the purest scorers ever to grace the league. Highest TS%? Never been above 57%.

How about Dwyane Wade that Dondadda brought up? 59% is the highest he's reached.

So is Kiki a better scorer than all these guys? Is Alex English a better scorer than all these guys? You can add Kobe to the list too. Is Alex English a better scorer than Kobe Bryant? He was apparently playing in a tougher defensive era, and was scoring just as many points. He has to be, right?
I've just gone ahead and compared the two eras and efficiency, and for some reason, this era is constantly coming up short, despite having all these advantages. Weird, isn't it?

I'm not that familiar with Kiki, since he's an 80s player, but wasn't he a power forward? Plus he was like a 90% free throw shooter which benefits tremendously his TS.

[atljonesbro]

LeBron would be even more dominant if he were able to be physical. He's too big, strong, and fast.

[Collie]

I'm not that familiar with Kiki, since he's an 80s player, but wasn't he a power forward?

He was primarily a SF,and played on some incredibly fast paced teams. He was one of the worst defensive players, but an offensive savant and one of the first true 3 point threats.

Also, Alex English is getting awfully underrated. The guy scored more points than anyone in the 80's, and he retired as the 7th leading scorer of all time. He got overshadowed by guys like Magic and Bird, but he was an elite player back then, his generation's Melo or Clyde.

[DonDadda59]

Kiki did it on 62% TS, and Kevin at 63%.

We are literally comparing a player about 50% of this board hasn't heard about, to a player that analysts, coaches and fans have labelled one of the best scorers ever.

Take Carmelo as the next example. Constantly discussed as one of the purest scorers ever to grace the league. Highest TS%? Never been above 57%.

How about Dwyane Wade that Dondadda brought up? 59% is the highest he's reached.

So is Kiki a better scorer than all these guys? Is Alex English a better scorer than all these guys? You can add Kobe to the list too. Is Alex English a better scorer than Kobe Bryant? He was apparently playing in a tougher defensive era, and was scoring just as many points. He has to be, right?
I've just gone ahead and compared the two eras and efficiency, and for some reason, this era is constantly coming up short, despite having all these advantages. Weird, isn't it?

See, this is why relying on advanced stats is a fool's errand. Doesn't TS% take into account FT shooting? What the hell does someone standing at the free throw line taking uncontested shots have to do with defensive schemes/rules/etc? :oldlol:

Wade is a career 76.5% FT shooter, obviously using a metric that takes that into account will have him with a lower percentage than someone like Kiki who was a 87% lifetime shooter. Wade on one leg put up 55% FG shooting while taking less than 1 3-pt attempt on average this year, he has a career shooting percentage of 49.2%, including numerous seasons shooting over 50% FG, taking 1.7 3-pts per game (same as Jordan). He has 3 championships, 1 finals MVP and is playing in his 5th championship series.

Tony Parker has a career FG% of 49.5, taking 1.4 3-pters per game (less than Jordan). He has numerous seasons shooting over 50% FG in his career. He has 3 championships, 1 finals MVP, and is playing in his 5th championship series.

Does it really take a rocket scientist to figure out that the less chucking you do, the more high IQ, high percentage shots you take (post ups, mid range, drives, etc) the better your shooting will be (not counting FT shooting :oldlol: )?

Again, all of this takes the most basic common sense to figure out. Now show me another season in NBA history with as much prolific perimeter scoring across the boards as 2005-2006 (after the new rules were implemented) and show me another era dominated so thoroughly offensively by wing players as the one we are witnessing now.

I'll wait.

[BurningHammer]

Jordan would flop even better than LeBron, among other aspects of the game. The guy wouldn't be a second fiddle to anybody.

[Beastmode88]

LeBron would be even more dominant if he were able to be physical. He's too big, strong, and fast.

Lol the bad boys beg to differ. Detroit is in the east bro.

[atljonesbro]

Lol the bad boys beg to differ. Detroit is in the east bro.
Yeah, LeBron wouldn't take advantage of his ridiculous athleticism. Stay delusional.

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

Kiki did it on 62% TS, and Kevin at 63%.

We are literally comparing a player about 50% of this board hasn't heard about, to a player that analysts, coaches and fans have labelled one of the best scorers ever.

Take Carmelo as the next example. Constantly discussed as one of the purest scorers ever to grace the league. Highest TS%? Never been above 57%.

How about Dwyane Wade that Dondadda brought up? 59% is the highest he's reached.

So is Kiki a better scorer than all these guys? Is Alex English a better scorer than all these guys? You can add Kobe to the list too. Is Alex English a better scorer than Kobe Bryant? He was apparently playing in a tougher defensive era, and was scoring just as many points. He has to be, right?
I've just gone ahead and compared the two eras and efficiency, and for some reason, this era is constantly coming up short, despite having all these advantages. Weird, isn't it?

No one thinks the 80's were a tough defensive era because most teams' idea of the defense was running up and down the court and trying to outscore the opponent...
Everyone is referencing the 90's as the tough defensive era, you just aren't on the page.

[Poetry]

[I]The most noticeable change in NBA basketball since [Kobe's] arrival in 1996?

[DonDadda59]

[QUOTE=Poetry][I]The most noticeable change in NBA basketball since [Kobe's] arrival in 1996?

[GimmeThat]

-can't use your hands or forearms on the offensive player
-without handchecking, players today have a green light to score/get off shots
-oscar and jordan would dominate today
-league banned handchecking so that perimeter and half-court scoring would increase

3:00, tho, is where Hubie really hits the nail on the head. Pampered babies of today..whining about defenses being physical is dumbfounding. :oldlol:

what makes you think the 90s had such great and valuable big mans. lets think, maybe the guards were too busy using their hand and bodying up on the opposing teams perimeter player, which allowed, guess what "SPACING" for big mans download to operate.

in todays game, while guards are no longer to handcheck perimeter players, this has also allowed coaches to implement even more help defense to limit the paint scoring from the opposing teams big man.

Why did you think it matters so much to Jordans latter 3-peat with Dennis Rodman collecting all those rebounds? Because when Jordan got older and slower, he did in fact needed a capable big man down the block in order to win rings and dominate the league.

Listen, I understand that because of the lack of handchecking rules, player nowadays have a green light to drive. But then it's the ability to drive and pull up and make those jump shots that truly matters. Players been able to do that since the 80s! Players who can dribble dribble dribble, pick up their ball and shoot the ball, that's what matters.

Did the handchecking rule made the league more competitive? If you say you wanted a league with perimeter contacts instead of just players who can shoot the ball 2-3 steps away from the premeter then sure it was more competitive. But look at the players today, some of the shooters (Kobe. JR Smith) even when they are a few steps back from the 3 point line, if you don't close up on them, they can just pull up and shoot a 3 in your face. and THAT has been the product of the lack of handchecking rules.

[Threethrows]

Lol the bad boys beg to differ. Detroit is in the east bro.

Here's the thing, different rules = different mentality for the players. To think that players today would be as "soft" as they are now is idiotic. The rules of the game determine these things. If LeBron came in during a time when people were playing harder could have changed his entire approach to that side of things, he would be difficult to deal with in any era. Keep staying blind though.

The Bad Boy Pistons playing now would be getting blown out every game from sending people to the line nonstop if they tried to play like that.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

what makes you think the 90s had such great and valuable big mans. lets think, maybe the guards were too busy using their hand and bodying up on the opposing teams perimeter player, which allowed, guess what "SPACING" for big mans download to operate.

in todays game, while guards are no longer to handcheck perimeter players, this has also allowed coaches to implement even more help defense to limit the paint scoring from the opposing teams big man.

Why did you think it matters so much to Jordans latter 3-peat with Dennis Rodman collecting all those rebounds? Because when Jordan got older and slower, he did in fact needed a capable big man down the block in order to win rings and dominate the league.

Listen, I understand that because of the lack of handchecking rules, player nowadays have a green light to drive. But then it's the ability to drive and pull up and make those jump shots that truly matters. Players been able to do that since the 80s! Players who can dribble dribble dribble, pick up their ball and shoot the ball, that's what matters.

Did the handchecking rule made the league more competitive? If you say you wanted a league with perimeter contacts instead of just players who can shoot the ball 2-3 steps away from the premeter then sure it was more competitive. But look at the players today, some of the shooters (Kobe. JR Smith) even when they are a few steps back from the 3 point line, if you don't close up on them, they can just pull up and shoot a 3 in your face. and THAT has been the product of the lack of handchecking rules.

No offense, but what is the point you're trying to get across? I dont know what you're asking. :oldlol:

I'll just leave it w/ these..


Joe Johnson from the Atlanta Hawks was asked about the handchecking rule during the summer of 2010: “It benefits me,” said Joe Johnson, one of three players (Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford are the others) on the Hawks’ roster who have averaged 20 or more points in a season. “It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. “If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different,” Johnson said. “If they couldn’t hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980s and 1990s. Can you imagine what [Michael] Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn’t hand check.”

During a 2007 L.A. Lakers pre-season broadcast, Phil Jackson was asked how he thought Michael Jordan would perform today, Phil said: “Michael would average 45 with these rules.”

“You can’t even touch a guy now,” says Charlotte coach Larry Brown, who also coached the 2004 Pistons defense… “The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he’d average 50.”

Question for Clyde Drexler:
In the current league where there is no hand checking and no ruff play how much better would your numbers be?
Clyde Drexler: Oh, tremendously better, from shooting percentage to points per game everything would be up, and our old teams would score a lot more points, and that is saying something because we could score a lot back then. I do think there should be an asterisk next to some of these scoring leaders, because it is much different trying to score with a forearm in your face. It is harder to score with that resistance. You had to turn your back on guys defending you back in the day with all the hand checking that was going on. For guys who penetrate these days, it’s hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do.

Craig Hodges is the Lakers shooting coach, get a look at what he said:
Q: If you could take one player in their prime, would you take Michael Jordan or Kobe?
A: M.J., all day. There’s no comparison. M.J. could score 100 points in this era. You can’t hand-check now. Imagine that trying to guard M.J. It would be crazy.

Hall of Famer Rick Barry, a keen observer of the game, said he would love to see players of the past getting to attack the basket under the new officiating. “They’d score a lot more,” he said.
Tex Winter said: “Players today can get to the basket individually much easier.”

Asked if he could defend Jordan under today’s interpretation of the rules, Joe Dumars first laughed, “It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game’s being called right now.”

Question for Dominique Wilkins: Seeing that you played in one of the greatest eras in NBA history, what has changed the most in the NBA since your days as a player?

Dominique Wilkins: “The power forward position had the license to kick your butt and the game was very physical. I think the physical aspect of the game, some of it has been taken away with the rule changes.”
Do you think you could take them?

Dominique Wilkins: “I don’t believe in comparisons, but I look at the era I played in. Like I said, when you have to play against a great player every night, that defines who you are if you can compete on that same level night in and night out. That tells you where your place is in the whole, I would say, history of the game. You put yourself in a very high spot.”

Dominique Wilkins: “When you can compete on that level against the greatest players every single night, and when you can play just as good or better, that really defines who you are as a player. So if you’re asking me what would I have done [today], well, put it this way, if you couldn’t touch me [because of the rule changes], instead of averaging 25 or 30 [points], I’d probably average 40.”

Tim Grover, who has trained Kobe, Lebron, and Jordan, was asked who would win a 1-on-1 battle of Jordan vs. either of the other two:
Tim Grover: “Oh, Michael. No question. From a physical and mental standpoint, he’s the best I’ve ever seen. If he were playing now, with the way the refs call everything, and with all the padding these guys wear, he’d average 40 or 50 a night if he wanted.”

[BigMacAttack]

Allthose quotes are just salty old guys who dont know shit. Our era is the toughest, hardest most bestest era there ever was..:rolleyes:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah what do PJax, Hubie and Larry Brown know? They've only coached both the 80s/90s and current era. Salty bastards :mad:

:hammerhead:

[Micku]

I saw a couple of 70s games, and the hand checking was pretty crazy if they actually want to pressure you.

The 80s seem to be concentrated on denying the post, and try to lock down the paint. They didn't really stick the outside shot unless you were a sharp shooter.

And the fouls were harder too sometimes. They wouldn't get kicked out the game as much unless it's a fight or something. I remember when Mchale clothesline Rambis and the commentators were like "It's apart of the game". Especially when Bird was trying to clam down Rambis. THAT type of mindset will never happen in today's game. Never. Mchale didn't get kicked out either if I can recall.

[Warfan]

If you think Wade/Kobe/Durant/Bron wouldn't get theirs in the 90s you're kidding yourself. MJ would dominate today no question, probably to an even further extent then when he played. But Bron/wade/kobe/Durant would dominate back then as well. They would all dominate any era.

I just disagree that the rules are gonna significantly impact them, especially since LeBron/wade/kobe who are strong wing players or Durant who is one of the best shooters we've seen. They'd be able to get away with more on offense, and would be better on defense too. The impact on these guys wouldn't be significant, especially if you let them adjust to that era.

Im not saying the rules haven't helped and made it easier for perimeter players, it's just that I don't think handchecking is gonna effect perimeter superstars/transcendent talents as much as your Jeff Teagues or Nick Youngs of the league.

That's just my opinion...

[Micku]

If you think Wade/Kobe/Durant/Bron wouldn't get theirs in the 90s you're kidding yourself. MJ would dominate today no question, probably to an even further extent then when he played. But Bron/wade/kobe/Durant would dominate back then as well. They would all dominate any era.

I just disagree that the rules are gonna significantly impact them, especially since LeBron/wade/kobe who are strong wing players or Durant who is one of the best shooters we've seen. They'd be able to get away with more on offense, and would be better on defense too. The impact on these guys wouldn't be significant, especially if you let them adjust to that era.

Im not saying the rules haven't helped and made it easier for perimeter players, it's just that I don't think handchecking is gonna effect perimeter superstars/transcendent talents as much as your Jeff Teagues or Nick Youngs of the league.

That's just my opinion...

That's what I think too.

[jstern]

If you think Wade/Kobe/Durant/Bron wouldn't get theirs in the 90s you're kidding yourself. MJ would dominate today no question, probably to an even further extent then when he played. But Bron/wade/kobe/Durant would dominate back then as well. They would all dominate any era.

I just disagree that the rules are gonna significantly impact them, especially since LeBron/wade/kobe who are strong wing players or Durant who is one of the best shooters we've seen. They'd be able to get away with more on offense, and would be better on defense too. The impact on these guys wouldn't be significant, especially if you let them adjust to that era.

Im not saying the rules haven't helped and made it easier for perimeter players, it's just that I don't think handchecking is gonna effect perimeter superstars/transcendent talents as much as your Jeff Teagues or Nick Youngs of the league.

That's just my opinion...

Kobe said it best, and I'll quote what Kobe said from Poetry's post
[QUOTE=Poetry]


[I]The rule against hand-checking has made it easier for players to shine offensively, Bryant said.

[eliteballer]

The bad boys allowed more ppg than Dirk and Nash's Mavs.

[diamenz]

LeBron would be even more dominant if he were able to be physical. He's too big, strong, and fast.

wanna m4sturbate back to back and talk about lebron?

[tpols]

MJ wouldnt win anything averaging 40 ppg though.. hed have to tone it back. The spurs are winning right now with 16 ppg leading scorer.. its still a team game.

[KOBE143]

Agree, a prime Jordan would be the Kobe of this era.. Jordan and Kobe in their primes would destroy this league.. Jordan would avg something like 30.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.35 spg and .83 bpg while Kobe would avg 45ppg, 8apg, 8rpg, 3spg and 1bpg.. Both would be top 2 best player in the league by far..

1. Kobe

gap

2. MJ


gap







99999. LeBron

[bdreason]

Can you imagine what MJ would do to this Spurs defense? :eek:

[bdreason]

Handchecking wouldn't slow down LeBron. It's all these 6' 180lb point guards that go wherever they want on the court that would be most effected.


I hear people talk about how this is the "Point Guard Era"... but the truth is that most of the modern PG's flourish because the rules are designed to make defending quick players on the perimeter near impossible.




And am I the only one who gets tired of watching every team run the same fukcing spread-the-floor, high pick-and-roll offense, all game, every game? The league has absolutely no offensive diversity anymore, because the rules have pigeonholed every team into playing the same way.

[Collie]

Young MJ was like a smarter, bigger Russell Westbrook when he drove to the basket. Imagine what kind of havoc he'd wreak today. He'd literally leave defenders in the dust with his first step.

Handchecking wouldn't bother Bron so much, since you can't really hinder him either way. But no handchecking would give a guy like MJ so much more leeway.

[Warfan]

Handchecking wouldn't slow down LeBron. It's all these 6' 180lb point guards that go wherever they want on the court that would be most effected.


I hear people talk about how this is the "Point Guard Era"... but the truth is that most of the modern PG's flourish because the rules are designed to make defending quick players on the perimeter near impossible.




And am I the only one who gets tired of watching every team run the same fukcing spread-the-floor, high pick-and-roll offense, all game, every game? The league has absolutely no offensive diversity anymore, because the rules have pigeonholed every team into playing the same way.

I agree with both points you made. It can get annoying to constantly watch 3 point shooters just spot up on the wing/corner while the teams runs high p&r. How many good back to the basket players are there in the league now? Majority of bigs (mainly PFs but even Centers) just take long jumpers and even 3's:facepalm

[houston]

plow king summed up the thread

[SHAQisGOAT]

Why is it then that most perimeter players are shooting a lower percentage than ever?

A guy like Kiki Vandeweghe was putting up 30ppg on 56%. Guys like English are putting up 30ppg on 50+%.

Then you have guys like Durant, credited as one of the best offensive talents ever in terms of scoring, put up 30+ppg on 50+% for the first time this year. Interesting how one of the best scorers ever only does it for the first time now, while you have players like Kiki and English who never get talked about by modern fans today doing it back in the 80's, and not nearly as highly regarded.

Let me guess, Kiki and English would be the best players today? They'd be scoring 40ppg too since it was better defense back then?

You always bring up those two guys, those two seasons... I find it funny. Here's my take on that...

Kiki scored 29.4 ONCE (which is his highest, by a solid margin) on 55.8% (and 85.2% from the line). During that time he was on a Nuggets' team that played at the highest pace in the league (by a solid margin) and were great at moving/passing the ball, a team that also wasn't winning much, that played bad D, they got blown out a lot as he kept playing, and they had numerous games with really high scores, he also had his best outputs against the worst defenses, plus he was playing alongside one of the greatest scorers in the game, Alex English, and a pretty good scorer/shooter in Dan Issel, so that also took plenty of attention/pressure off from him... That was just the perfect team for Kiki to do that.
Furthermore, adding to the stuff above, he was like 6'9 and pretty mobile (in a perimeter player way), playing PF/SF and stretching the floor, expending little to no energy on defense and rebounding, just great without the ball, terrific shooter, great soft-touch, could post-up and finish, took it to the cup well, had one of the greatest jab-steps ever... His game was very efficient in a sense that he attempted lots of shots but shots that he knew he was gonna make, more than anything else, like open close/mid-range jumpers, easy drives, fastbreak bunnies, ISO's when having mismatches. And I've seen him many times scoring with relative ease on some great defenders, too.
Here's a good example of all of that, against one of the worst defensive teams in the league, at the time; one of his two 50 points game in that season, the other was in the highest scoring game ever, triple overtime vs the Pistons, which also had a bad defense during those days..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBPlmNY5WSY

Now what you also don't mention (adding to the stuff above) is that he never made an all-nba team, never was top20 in MVP voting, when he was doing his best "his" teams weren't going nowhere, he was not impactful (wasn't doing the same in the playoffs also), never viewed as one of the best in the game or close... Was he not a terrific scorer? Yes he was, I praise that, and that was basically everything that he was though.. but let's not overrate him just by looking at the raw numbers or something, let's not turn him into more than he was.
Denver also got much better when he was gone, and when they started to actually play defense.

Imagine something like Dirk playing for D'Antoni's Suns, but a considerably worse version of them with worse defense too, and a team that even liked to run more, and he's playing alongside someone like KD, imagine that in that "situation" he's not giving a single **** about rebounding or playing defense, that he's taking less than 0.5 3's per game and albeit taking lots of shots he's taking mostly sure-shot shots... Pretty similar.

As for English, he's one of the greatest scorers ever, you're taking him way too lightly, for my taste. He was a great shooter (not with much range though), was tall, athletic, had really long arms, virtually unblockable (style of) jumper, his close-range game is simply one of the greatest ever as defenders just had to stand there hoping that the shot didn't fall, he was a master at runners and leaners, knew how to drive and finish, great touch, worked without the ball, couldn't be double-teamed much as he was a good passer, could raise his game in the PS... And he actually never topped the 30 point mark though, while his prime stats (around 8 seasons) were something like 27 on 51/84. He has the most points scored in the 80's though, one of the greatest scorers ever.

So no, not one of them would be the best player in the game today, just like they weren't back then... Kiki wasn't even close to being one of the best in the game, English indeed was ONE OF the best players (not at the very top but still was) as he would be right now as well. And no, they wouldn't be scoring 40 ppg lmfao, Kiki most likely would never been in a situation to score as much as he did for that one season (yea once), but he could've definitely be at 20+ ppg on great efficiency for more than one season (at least in the right "situation"); Alex would be most likely taking more 3's, taking less shots, so he'd be at about the same ppg on the same %'s.
Keep up with the great analysis though :rolleyes:

How about mentioning someone like Dominique Wilkins though? One of the most athletic players ever, one of the greatest finishers ever, an athletic freak with plenty of skill, he could shoot, had good footwork, good post-game, great touch from close... Topped the 30 point mark twice, only was above 47% while scoring 25+ once, was shooting below 47% during his prime. Oh and I guess he was worse than someone like Kiki, when he was the one actually taking (while leading) his teams far, being top5 (even top3) in MVP voting, make all-nba's, doing it in the Playoffs, considered one of the greatest scorers in the game...
Just one example.

[kNIOKAS]

Always love some Hubie Brown!:applause:

[Psileas]

Hubie is wrong about the implementation of the 16 foot lane, though. It entered before the 1965 season due to Wilt, way before Kareem arrived.

[Blue&Orange]

Why is it then that most perimeter players are shooting a lower percentage than ever?

Because they can't shoot? lol

Because it's all about jumping high and running fast nowadays? Because actual
basketball skills and IQ are secondary when drafting.


You know why a team that was supposed to be done 4 years ago is doing so well? Because they have basketball skills and IQ and are playing on an INCREDIBLY WEAK DUMBED DOWN SCRIPTED ERA.


And can we stop with the "defenses are more sophisticated today" argument, what a fcking retarded argument, so offenses didn't evolved also?

[kshutts1]

so Jordan MIGHT score more... would be up around Durant territory, but since Jordan's better than Durant, he'd probably be in the 33-36 range... but his defense would suffer CONSIDERABLY due to the different rules.

Assuming he was time-warped here, he'd adapt... if he grew up with these rules, he would be used to it, obviously, but Jordan benefited so much from his strength relative to other SGs and PGs, his D would go down. Can't have it all. Either expend more energy scoring more and have his D regress, or vice versa.

[jzek]

Only the 457,287,208,506,473 reason why Jordan is the GOAT.

[GimmeThat]

"so Michael, what made you decided to stop averaging points in the high 30s. you averaged 37 per game a season on high efficiency!!!!!"

-Kevin Love's facial expression when asked why did the Wolves missed the playoff this year-

[j3lademaster]

99999. LeBronI've always known Lebron is worse than ~99,599 players who aren't even in the league. Bran stans super delusional.

[Beastmode88]

Here's the thing, different rules = different mentality for the players. To think that players today would be as "soft" as they are now is idiotic. The rules of the game determine these things. If LeBron came in during a time when people were playing harder could have changed his entire approach to that side of things, he would be difficult to deal with in any era. Keep staying blind though.

The Bad Boy Pistons playing now would be getting blown out every game from sending people to the line nonstop if they tried to play like that.

Bran stans stay delusional more. :facepalm The league has become soft as fcuk compared to what it use to be. MJ said it best, if you go to the hole, you're gonna get hit and you're gonna have to pay the price. The bad boys had the jordan rule, :biggums: imagine if they had a Lebron rule. He would do nothing but take jumpers. Obviously the bad boys wouldn't stand a chance in the league today with their style of aggression which is why I said if Lebron played back then against men not boys. Stay small.

[DCL]

in the religion of basketball, what hubie brown preaches is the gospel.

[TheMan]

Not a peep from Roundball Rock and his minion, LeBird contradicting Hubie? :confusedshrug:

Thought so :oldlol:

They're in every Jordan thread writing bitter walls of text, avoiding this one like da plague :applause:

[LeBird]

Not a peep from Roundball Rock and his minion, LeBird contradicting Hubie? :confusedshrug:

Thought so :oldlol:

They're in every Jordan thread writing bitter walls of text, avoiding this one like da plague :applause:

Jordan would dominate in every era, he's just that brilliant at scoring. But if he was playing now he'd need Pippen, Rodman, Jackson et al if he wanted to win anything :lol

[TheMan]

Jordan would dominate in every era, he's just that brilliant at scoring. But if he was playing now he'd need Pippen, Rodman, Jackson et al if he wanted to win anything :lol
LeBron needed Wade (former FMVP), Bosh (All Star), and Allen (HOFer) with legend Pat Riley steering the ship to win, what's your point?

Bird needed Maxwell, Archibald, McHale, Parrish, Walton, Ainge and Auerbach to win :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan would dominate in every era, he's just that brilliant at scoring. But if he was playing now he'd need Pippen, Rodman, Jackson et al if he wanted to win anything :lol

You actually need a team to win a championship? No way...

[ProfessorMurder]

Is Alex English a better scorer than all these guys?

Yes.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

No one worth a damn says MJ wouldn't be great today. He obviously would. What people disagree with is when people say insane shit like he'd easily average 40+ppg while leading a team to a title. He's starting to become more myth.

[ProfessorMurder]

I'd rather listen to Hubie like this, this was great. His in game stuff gets a little grating to me at times.

[andgar923]

Yes.

But since he never saw him play and since he's not a superstar, he doubts that's the case.

Players were simply smarter back then.

[jstern]

No one worth a damn says MJ wouldn't be great today. He obviously would. What people disagree with is when people say insane shit like he'd easily average 40+ppg while leading a team to a title. He's starting to become more myth.

I remember watching a Jordan interview from back in the 90s, with him saying that he could average 40 ppg, but that it would be at the expense of the team. So while I do think his PPG might go up by a few points (too many 50 point games), like it did with other perimeter players, I doubt he would gun for 40 ppg. And I haven't heard anyone say that he would lead his team to a championship on 40 ppg. I've heard people say that he would average 40, and even Phil say 45, but I take that more as making a point on how much the rules have changed.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Jordan would dominate in every era, he's just that brilliant at scoring. But if he was playing now he'd need Pippen, Rodman, Jackson et al if he wanted to win anything :lol

Wow he needed a guy who was traded for Olden Polynice, a guy who wascut from a team who he (or no one in the league) could win a ring with that no one else wanted to sign and a CBA coach?

Thank you for pointing out that Jordan won with less than anyone! You must be the biggest Jordan stan on insidehoops!

LeBird EAD LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. But nah please respond.

[Dengness9]

If you dont respect Hubie Brown and the analysis and knowledge he brings to the table.....stop watching ball.

[ralph_i_el]

Bran stans stay delusional more. :facepalm The league has become soft as fcuk compared to what it use to be. MJ said it best, if you go to the hole, you're gonna get hit and you're gonna have to pay the price. The bad boys had the jordan rule, :biggums: imagine if they had a Lebron rule. He would do nothing but take jumpers. Obviously the bad boys wouldn't stand a chance in the league today with their style of aggression which is why I said if Lebron played back then against men not boys. Stay small.

yeah the bigger stronger dude that constantly obliterates contact would suffer under those rules :facepalm

Star players shoot less these days and teams play at a slower pace than when MJ played. He's not averaging 40 on a winning team. Nobody thinks he wouldn't be dominant in todays league. I just don't think he'd necessarily be any better. Star players shoot less these days because teams realized that manufacturing open 3 point shots is necessary to be a contender.

Defenses are also allowed to pack the paint easier with psedo-zones and preemptively double team. In MJ's day you couldn't move to far away from a player beyond the three point line even if they were a non-shooter or they called illegal D. MJ wouldn't have nearly the same usage rate in my opinion.

[Replay32]

Hubie Brown is the man. I wish he was doing the finals. He should be there instead of Stan Van Gundy.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

yeah the bigger stronger dude that constantly obliterates contact would suffer under those rules :facepalm

Save the hyperbole for casuals.. :oldlol: In a half court scenario, under the OLD rules, LeBron wouldn't have the leeway he does today when attempting to score.

[Soundwave]

I don't really think the game has changed that much from the 90s anyway.

Jordan was still putting up 20+ ppg as broken down 40 year old man in 2002.

It's like saying would have a 98-99 Allen Iverson score 30 in today's game? Uh ... I think the better question is why wouldn't he?

It's the 90s, not the 1950s.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron wouldn't have the leeway he does today when attempting to score.
Exactly, and his first step isn't even on Kobe's level, let alone MJs.

[Quizno]

Same here.

Only way I can keep up with young players is by being physical and hand checking the f*ck outta them.

And I've literally said "i'm playing you old school" I completely throw them off their game.

Young dudes don't know...

They don't know....
so you're saying the only way you can keep up with younger, quicker & faster players is to get as close to them as possible to the point you're putting your arm against them? i don't buy that for a second. if you're already slower than someone you give them MORE space, not less. they would blow right by you if you started hand-checking them from the perimeter if you're already slower than them

[OldSchoolBBall]

1988-'93 Jordan PLAYING THE STYLE HE ACTUALLY PLAYED would average 32-33 pts/6+/6/3/1+/52+% FG/62% TS on a championship level team today.

'88-'93 Jordan playing a '08-'14 Lebron, '05-'09 Kobe, '06-'09 Wade ball dominant role on a championship team would average 33-34 pts/6+ reb/7-8 ast/3 stl/1+ blk/52% FG/62% TS.

'88-'93 Jordan playing a ball dominant role on an average team would be a 34-36 pt/6-7 reb/7 ast/3/1+/52% FG/62% TS player.

And if you don't know the difference between the way Jordan played and the way the other guys I mentioned play, educate yourself.

[andgar923]

so you're saying the only way you can keep up with younger, quicker & faster players is to get as close to them as possible to the point you're putting your arm against them? i don't buy that for a second. if you're already slower than someone you give them MORE space, not less. they would blow right by you if you started hand-checking them from the perimeter if you're already slower than them

Nobody said you'd play them as close as possible.:rolleyes:

Of course you give them space, but you can still hand check. You don't need to be close to them. Handchecking can also be used as they're driving by you.

I mean... have you ever played with hand check rules before?

[TheReal Kendall]

Great interview! Dropping knowledge like always.


Man I can't believe Hubie is 80 years old and still getting around like it's nothing.

[TheMan]

Nobody said you'd play them as close as possible.:rolleyes:

Of course you give them space, but you can still hand check. You don't need to be close to them. Handchecking can also be used as they're driving by you.

I mean... have you ever played with hand check rules before?
Obviously not.

Dudes who are good at hand checking can easily knock the offensive player off balance as their driving to the rim.

[tontoz]

what makes you think the 90s had such great and valuable big mans..



Anyone who actually watched guys like Drob, Ewing, Hakeem, Zo, young Shaq, Malone and Barkley knows that were a light year better than bigs today. There is no comparison.