How many rings would MJ have won without Pippen?

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's assume Seattle never traded Pippen and Pippen played in Seattle with Payton. How would MJ's career have turned out?

[Myth]

So does Jordan have Kemp instead? I say 5.

[pastis]

2 rings at best:biggums:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

3 if he got another good-great second option

[pastis]

i mean, would he get nothing instead of pippen or a good second option?

but what would kobe did with pippen and rodman? maybe more than 6 rings.

[Nikola_]

More than Kareem without Magic, thats for sure.

[riseagainst]

so instead of Pippen, he gets Shaq? He'd win 10 in a row.

[AnaheimLakers24]

he still wouldnt be looking at 2/5

[Roundball_Rock]

So does Jordan have Kemp instead? I say 5.

No, Kemp remains on Seattle. The Bulls have Olden Polynice instead of Pippen.


i mean, would he get nothing instead of pippen or a good second option?

That is a key part of the hypothetical. Would the Bulls be able to get such a player? They obviously could not draft one because they would not be getting high picks. Could they have pulled off a trade? However, with what? The Bulls’ best assets for a trade would be Grant, Oakley (briefly), and later Kukoc. Would they net a superstar with such players?

This hypothetical replaces Pippen with Polynice. The rest is up to you. MJ would still get Rodman and Kukoc later and would have Grant through 1993.


so instead of Pippen, he gets Shaq?

Shaq was the #1 pick. So you are saying the Bulls would have missed the playoffs in 1992 with peak MJ? :eek:


he still wouldnt be looking at 2/5

0/2? 1/3? 2/2?

[Johnny Jones]

So does Jordan have Kemp instead? I say 5.
Holy shit imagine the player Kemp would become with MJ as his mentor. :eek:

[riseagainst]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]No, Kemp remains on Seattle. The Bulls have Olden Polynice instead of Pippen.



That is a key part of the hypothetical. Would the Bulls be able to get such a player? They obviously could not draft one because they would not be getting high picks. Could they have pulled off a trade? However, with what? The Bulls

[TheMan]

Let's assume Seattle never traded Pippen and Pippen played in Seattle with Payton. How would MJ's career have turned out?
Depends, if the Bulls surrounded him with a decent supporting cast and a few past their prime greats wanting to chase rings join him, about the same as now.

If he went the LeBron route and joined up with Magic and Sir Charles? About a dozen...

[Dengness9]

Heres what Im trying to figure out....


If Roundball hates Jordan fans so much.....

Why does he make Jordan threads every day to call more attention to the GOAT MJ?

:confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

Holy shit imagine the player Kemp would become with his MJ as his mentor. :eek:

Kemp was not in the NBA until 1989 or 1990. He was a late pick from high school. He has nothing to do with this scenario. The "Jordan-Kemp" scenario was in the mid-90's--but MJ staunchly opposed trading Pippen for any younger star.


shaq demands a trade to play with MJ to win. after MJ posted his 31-7-11 in the 1991 finals.

Shaq was not in the NBA in 1992. Who would Orlando trade Shaq for? Why would they trade a Shaq they just drafted?


Depends, if the Bulls surrounded him with a decent supporting cast and a few past their prime greats wanting to chase rings join him, about the same as now.

Would they? Where would they acquire a Pippen-caliber player? Obviously not via the draft. Can someone construct a realistic trade where the Bulls trade Grant and Stacey King for an elite player?

[Myth]

No, Kemp remains on Seattle. The Bulls have Olden Polynice instead of Pippen.



That is a key part of the hypothetical. Would the Bulls be able to get such a player? They obviously could not draft one because they would not be getting high picks. Could they have pulled off a trade? However, with what? The Bulls’ best assets for a trade would be Grant, Oakley (briefly), and later Kukoc. Would they net a superstar with such players?

This hypothetical replaces Pippen with Polynice. The rest is up to you. MJ would still get Rodman and Kukoc later and would have Grant through 1993.



Shaq was the #1 pick. So you are saying the Bulls would have missed the playoffs in 1992 with peak MJ? :eek:



0/2? 1/3? 2/2?

In that case, the Bulls would still be in it every year they won it, but it becomes a toss up. They likely lose to the Pacers in 98. I'm thinking he gets 2-3 in 91-93 with the Knicks being the most likely to knock them out (and if he doesn't, he doesn't retire and is in the chase in 94). I think he gets it in 96, but 97 is the toughest for him outside of 98. So... 3-4 without getting a major replacement for Pippen.

[TheMan]

Kemp was not in the NBA until 1989 or 1990. He was a late pick from high school. He has nothing to do with this scenario. The "Jordan-Kemp" scenario was in the mid-90's--but MJ staunchly opposed trading Pippen for any younger star.



Shaq was not in the NBA in 1992. Who would Orlando trade Shaq for? Why would they trade a Shaq they just drafted?



Would they? Where would they acquire a Pippen-caliber player? Obviously not via the draft. Can someone construct a realistic trade where the Bulls trade Grant and Stacey King for an elite player?
Couldn't FAs move around back then? I don't really remember that aspect of the game...

[TheMan]

Heres what Im trying to figure out....


If Roundball hates Jordan fans so much.....

Why does he make Jordan threads every day to call more attention to the GOAT MJ?

:confusedshrug:
Great question. Probably just likes the attention.

[Soundwave]

Probably the same with Kemp honestly, I'd say 6.

He'd win more in Portland if the Blazers hadn't been idiots in taking Sam Bowie because he would've been drafted into a team that would've been very good in like 1-2 years instead, like Magic, Bird, Kobe, and Shaq had the benefit of.

If the Bulls could not build a good team around Jordan, odds are he would've been traded at some point like Barkley was, probably to New York or the Lakers (Buss had a giant hard on for Jordan, would've done anything to get him).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

A little vague, dont you think? Who's replacing Pippen? Another swingman? Allstar? Multiple role players?

Nobody in history has won a chip by themself, if thats what you're suggesting.

[AceManIII]

At least 3 is a good prediction

[Roundball_Rock]

What is with this Kemp talk? Pippen was traded for Olden Polynice, not Kemp. Kemp did not join the NBA until a few years later. Under this scenario, Kemp is on Seattle with Pippen and Payton (so for MJ to win rings he would have to beat that team).

Yes, free agency as we know it began in the late 80's. Who could the Bulls have realistically signed and when? Could they have been able to afford both MJ and another big name free agent? Remember, Pippen was underpaid. As to free agency, I believe Shaq was the only elite player who switched teams in the "Jordan era" (i.e. Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone never left via FA).


A little vague, dont you think? Who's replacing Pippen? Another swingman? Another allstar? Multiple role players?


This is a hypothetical. There is no real answer. I suspect they would have at some point tried to package Grant and someone else, maybe Armstrong, for an all-star player (i.e. Jeff Hornacek or Shawn Kemp types). I don't think they would have been able to acquire a Pippen-caliber player. Superstars did not move around in free agency back then so you needed a trade or draft to acquire one. The Bulls would lack the assets to trade for a superstar and with MJ they would not be in the lottery so they would not be drafting a superstar.

MJ would at least have Grant, Polynice, Armstrong, Kukoc, Rodman still under this scenario.

My answer depends on how long it would take the Bulls to get another all-star. They may have failed to do so, like Cleveland did due to a lack of assets which caused Lebron to leave. I think the answer is 1-2, maybe 3 if they got an all-star early.

[Soundwave]

Jordan would've been traded by 91 or 92 if the Bulls were too incompetent to find a reasonably good no.2 option for him to play with.

In that scenario I think he probably ends up with the Lakers because they have all the luck in those cases.

He was winning titles one way or another, it was just matter of whether it was going to be in Chicago or somewhere else.

[JUDGE WITNESS]

he still would not make out of the first round

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan would've been traded by 91 or 92 if the Bulls were too incompetent to find a reasonably no.2 option for him to play with. And the bidding war for him would've been tremendous.

How good a team would he find upon a trade? The Bulls would want a king's ransom for him, similar to the Bucks when they traded Kareem, which meant the team Kareem joined was weak since they had to give up an all-star, a 16/11 player and the #2 and #8 picks in that year's draft for him. Would the team MJ would wind up on really be that much better after the roster is gutted to acquire him? Still, I can see MJ doing that and the other organization may have better luck acquiring talent, similar to how Miami is more adept at that than Cleveland.

I agree MJ was too good not to win titles anyway but he would be viewed much differently if he won 2 rings versus 6.

Here is a realistic trade scenario for MJ:

Bulls get Ewing, Starks, and Mason while the Knicks get Jordan and maybe a bench filler. How good would New York be under that scenario? It would be MJ and Oakley as the best players with a few other solid players there as well (i.e. Charles Smith).

[Soundwave]

How good a team would he find upon a trade? The Bulls would want a king's ransom for him, similar to the Bucks when they traded Kareem, which meant the team Kareem joined was weak since they had to give up an all-star, a 16/11 player and the #2 and #8 picks in that year's draft for him. Would the team MJ would wind up on really be that much better after the roster is gutted to acquire him? Still, I can see MJ doing that and the other organization may have better luck acquiring talent, similar to how Miami is more adept at that than Cleveland.

I agree MJ was too good not to win titles anyway but he would be viewed much differently if he won 2 rings versus 6.

He was always winning more than 2.

90-98 is a pretty wide open window, he was simply better than anyone else in the league and on top of that such an elite level finisher (the dagger you need to win titles with) that if you give him a decent no.2 option, once he got 1, then the 2nd and 3rd were likely not going to be far behind.

Bulls eventually would not have much choice if he was unhappy in Chicago he would demand a trade and the trade would have to be such that the team getting him still is good enough to have someone for him to play with.

[jzek]

More than LeBron without Wade and more than Kobe without Shaq or Pau.

[b0bab0i]

Depends who replaced Pippen, but maybe only 1.
Pippen is vastly underrated.

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ would've won eventually. Pippen would never have rings without Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ would've won eventually. Pippen would never have rings without Jordan.

Seattle with Pippen, Payton, Kemp would never win (note: with Pippen at SF they would never have gotten Schrempf)? Remember, Seattle's best years coincided with Pippen's best years.

I think we all agree MJ would have won at least one ring without Pippen, and probably multiple. The real question is how many. He obviously would not have 6. I assume 2-3. It is hard to say. The only other top 10 all-time players during the 90's were Hakeem and Shaq. Hakeem won 2 but Shaq did not win in the 90's, although under this hypothetical he may have won in 96', although I suspect the Pippen-Payton Sonics would have prevailed. Malone, Barkley, Ewing won 0, as did Robinson in his prime although again, under this scenario Ewing may have won in 92' or 93' and Malone in 97' and 98'. Barkley conceivably could have won in 93' but I think the Knicks would have beaten the Suns. You have to account for how many, if any, rings the Pippen-Payton Sonics would win in this scenario, though, to assess if these other superstars would have won and how much they would have won. For example, with Pippen on the Sonics they beat the Suns in the WCF so you can't just pencil in Barkley for 93' absent MJ in the Finals.

[Real14]

How many rings (asterisks) would LeBron have won without wade and bosh?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Seattle with Pippen, Payton, Kemp would never win (note: with Pippen at SF they would never have gotten Schrempf)? Remember, Seattle's best years coincided with Pippen's best years.
Nope. Whose going to be that elite volume scorer? Specifically in crunch time? That guy wasn't Pippen. PJ took a rookie Kukoc over him.

Also why would they have Pippen, Payton, and Kemp though? Bulls were contemplating trading Scottie for Kemp. Because Scottie was a malcontent, fiercly insecure and bitch like.

Removing himself from playoff games to sit on the bench. Honestly, who does that?

Scottie couldn't get it done with a Blazers team that had this:

Sanonis
Rasheed Wallace
Steve Smith
Damon Stoudemire
Schrempf
Bonzi Wells

Or a Rockets team that had this:

Hakeem
Barkley
Michael Dickerson

I don't think he'd get it done with anyone else either, he needed MJ's alpha leadership, and ability to will the team to wins. Particularly with elite half court scoring.

[Roundball_Rock]

How many rings (asterisks) would LeBron have won without wade and bosh?

Interesting question deserving of its own thread. It depends on how you project his future without them. I would say if he did not go to Miami he would have went to Chicago and won rings there.

SS, Pippen was past his prime in Houston and Portland. As we know, his prime ended after his 98' Finals back injury and he was 33 in HOU and 34 in POR.


Also why would they have Pippen, Payton, and Kemp though? Bulls were contemplating trading Scottie for Kemp

Kemp was a low draft pick since he came out of HS so Pippen being on Seattle and Seattle being better does not impair their ability to draft Kemp.

Yeah, one implicit condition in MJ returning was that the Bulls not trade Pippen for a younger star like Kemp, but pre-MJ that trade almost happened in the middle of 1995.

Edit: Seattle got Payton by going into the lottery at 41-41. With Pippen there they would not be in the lottery. Seattle would still get Kemp, though, in this scenario.

[Real14]

Interesting question deserving of its own thread. It depends on how you project his future without them. I would say if he did not go to Miami he would have went to Chicago and won rings there.
With derrick rose and who else wise guy?:lol

[Smoke117]

Nope. Whose going to be that elite volume scorer? Specifically in crunch time? That guy wasn't Pippen. PJ took a rookie Kukoc over him.

Also why would they have Pippen, Payton, and Kemp though? Bulls were contemplating trading Scottie for Kemp. Because Scottie was a malcontent, fiercly insecure and bitch like.

Removing himself from playoff games to sit on the bench. Honestly, who does that?

Scottie couldn't get it done with a Blazers team that had this:

Sanonis
Rasheed Wallace
Steve Smith
Damon Stoudemire
Schrempf
Bonzi Wells

Or a Rockets team that had this:

Hakeem
Barkley
Michael Dickerson

I don't think he'd get it done with anyone else either, he needed MJ's alpha leadership, and ability to will the team to wins. Particularly with elite half court scoring.

What a great bulls fan...goes around talking shit on a key player to 6 championships...though we all know you aren't a real bulls fan, but just a jordan stan.

[robert de niro]

OP jerks off to these hypotheticals

[Roundball_Rock]

With derrick rose and who else wise guy?:lol

The Bulls were a top 4 team in the East without Rose. Chicago would provide a much better team around him than Cleveland did, even without Rose. Add in Rose, whatever piece they would have gotten for Deng (with LeBron there the Bulls would have traded Deng in 2010 since LeBron would render him obsolete) along with Noah and they win titles at some point.

[97 bulls]

Nope. Whose going to be that elite volume scorer? Specifically in crunch time? That guy wasn't Pippen. PJ took a rookie Kukoc over him.

Also why would they have Pippen, Payton, and Kemp though? Bulls were contemplating trading Scottie for Kemp. Because Scottie was a malcontent, fiercly insecure and bitch like.

Removing himself from playoff games to sit on the bench. Honestly, who does that?

Scottie couldn't get it done with a Blazers team that had this:

Sanonis
Rasheed Wallace
Steve Smith
Damon Stoudemire
Schrempf
Bonzi Wells

Or a Rockets team that had this:

Hakeem
Barkley
Michael Dickerson

I don't think he'd get it done with anyone else either, he needed MJ's alpha leadership, and ability to will the team to wins. Particularly with elite half court scoring.
So your basing your whole argument on who is gonna take the last shot of the game? Wow.

How many games did Russell take over? Or Magic? Neither was their teams best scorer, but considered the leader.

Besides. Weve already gone through this. I've given you multiple games of "Pippen taking over". Why do you constantly ignore this?

[Goldrush25]

I said none at first, because I don't think they don't get past the Knicks without Pippen. People forget those wars that the Bulls and Knicks had in the 90s. Even with MJ the Bulls got taken to the limit. Without Pippen they stand no chance against those Knicks teams.

But he may get a couple later in the 90s as the Knicks started to age, so I say 2.

[DonDadda59]

Probably would've teamed up with Hakeem and Barkley in Houston (and actually won, Scottie :lol ) in '91. So not 5, not 6, not 7.

8. 8 Championships.

[Roundball_Rock]

So your basing your whole argument on who is gonna take the last shot of the game? Wow.

Exactly. Even in the 88' Finals Riley was calling clutch plays for an ancient Kareem (41 years old). Does that detract from (peak) Magic? Basketball fans make too much of the "last shot" even though few games actually come down to that.

SS also assumes title teams need an "elite volume scorer." That usually is the case but not always. First, how do you define "elite volume scorer"? Does 25 ppg qualify or do you need to be around 30? Both the 80's Pistons and the 2000's Pistons lacked that--as did all the Spurs title teams, the current Spurs and the "Big 3" Celtics.

[GODbe]

0. He would've stayed first round fodder.

[SamuraiSWISH]

So your basing your whole argument on who is gonna take the last shot of the game? Wow.
No. Volume scoring, closing ability, and mental toughness. All things Pippen completely lacked. That's why he failed with better built rosters with more all around talent in Houston, and Portland.


What a great bulls fan...goes around talking shit on a key player to 6 championships...though we all know you aren't a real bulls fan, but just a jordan stan.
OP talking shit about Jordan. So that makes him a real Bulls fan? LMAO

I'm not making threads blasting Pippen's inability to be a great scorer, pouting and sitting on the bench in crunch time of crucial PLAYOFF games. I'm not making threads saying he wasn't a quality team leader with various talented rosters outside of Chicago he failed to win with.

Shut your dumb ass up, you're not a Bulls fan to begin with. You're a complete Scottie Pippen stan of the same ilk of the remedial troll Roundball_Rock. I'm a true Bulls fan, I know the reality of the situation.

Pippen might be underrated outside of ISH, all time great supplemental player but on ISH dude is ridiculously overrated by clowns with an agenda such as yourself. It's like the clowns with an agenda who overrate Pau Gasol.

[knicksman]

pippen is just another iguodala who are dime a dozen. It just that jordan never cared about stats when he matured that pippens effectiveness isnt reduced to the extent that lebron reduced wade/bosh. And thats the real meaning of making your teammates better. The ability to coexist with other players and not how many assists or else oscar, iverson wouldnt be called cancers by their teammates. Thats why jordan only needed a pippen to win while bran needs superstacked team to win. Basketball is a 5 on 5 and thats what dumb lebron fans arent getting. What lebron does can be fulfilled by the other 4 players but what jordan/kobe does cannot be fulfilled by even lebron. Its about quality of skills and not quantity. Its about the difficulty of skill and not how many mediocre skills you have. And that what makes alpha, to take the most difficult role of the game which is scoring tough shots.

Only pusy betas like lebron wouldnt dare that role because they are afraid to fail. Thats why lebron would rather be an all around player so when the going gets tough, he can just be a playmaker and avoid criticisms. But only idiots like you OP are getting fooled by lebron. SAme idiots getting fooled by the wilts and robertsons.

[97 bulls]

No. Volume scoring, closing ability, and mental toughness. All things Pippen completely lacked. That's why he failed with better built rosters with more all around talent in Houston, and Portland.
He failed in Houston because the core players on that roster you deem "better", were old and washed up. Along with Pippen.

Portland was extremely talented, but they werent better than the Lakers. And again, Pippen was almost 35 years old. Come on bro. Be reasonable. As a Bulls fan, you cant give him the benefit of the doubt? Why didnt Bird win in 91? Why didn't Barkley win with Drexler and Olajuwan? Younger versions I might add. Im sure you feel they're both much better than Pippen

[SamuraiSWISH]

He failed in Houston because the core players on that roster you deem "better", were old and washed up. Along with Pippen.
Jordan was old, and he dragged the offense featuring an injured Pippen from the '96 playoffs on to 3 championships.


Pippen was almost 35 years old. Come on bro. Be reasonable.
MJ did it at the same age with much older, and less all around talent. OP throwing shade at Jordan. I'm bringing the reality about Pippen.

[Rodmantheman]

http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/TTjOzLX9eZNszNxXnMsGbA/l.jpg

[97 bulls]

Jordan was old, and he dragged the offense featuring an injured Pippen from the '96 playoffs on to 3 championships.


MJ did it at the same age with much older, and less all around talent. OP throwing shade at Jordan. I'm bringing the reality about Pippen.
First. Im not comparing Scottie Pippen to Michael Jordan. Second. The Bulls team Jordan led, was the one that won 72 figgn games in 96, 69 in 97, and 62 with Pippen missing half the season. Totally different scenario from the Rocket and Trailblazer teams Pippen was on.

But there were two questions. What do you think about Barkely not winning with Drexler and Olajuwan? Or Bird in 91 not even being able to take his team to the ECF.

[knicksman]

if pippen played with lebron, he would become a scrub just what lebron did to former all stars, sczerbiak, hughes, jamison, wallace. I dont think lebron even produced an all star during his tenure in cleveland. Williams was just selected out of pity. For a suppose to be making his teammates better, He sure made lots of former all stars into scrubs

[OldSchoolBBall]

Assuming he still ended up with a good team (one other all-star plus good role players), at least 2-3. Depending on who that star was, possibly many more.

Jordan with '88-'97 Drexler = 4-6 rings

Jordan with '87-'97 Ewing = 5-7 rings

Jordan with ''87-'97 Barkley = 5-7 rings

Jordan with '88-'93 Mullin = 2-3 rings

Jordan with '92-'97 Mutombo = 2-3 rings (defensive identity based team)

[riseagainst]

if pippen played with lebron, he would become a scrub just what lebron did to former all stars, sczerbiak, hughes, jamison, wallace. I dont think lebron even produced an all star during his tenure in cleveland. Williams was just selected out of pity. For a suppose to be making his teammates better, He sure made lots of former all stars into scrubs

this. Look at what he did to D Wade and Bosh who were both superstars, 1 top 3 player and the other top 10 player. A year after they joined Lebron, they both were forced into spot up shooters. Yet Le-stans are blind and call them scrubs.

[TheMan]

this. Look at what he did to D Wade and Bosh who were both superstars, 1 top 3 player and the other top 10 player. A year after they joined Lebron, they both were forced into spot up shooters. Yet Le-stans are blind and call them scrubs.
But dat efficiency :bowdown:

[bizil]

This is a very vague question because who do u replace Pip with? The one thing u can't take away from Pip is the fact that he revolutionized the SF spot. He was like a mix of Hondo's epic all around two way game with Dr.J level size and athletic ability! That's was unheard then. That evolution then paved the way for guys like Grant Hill and now Lebron is taking it to the ultimate.

But looking at that 87 draft, lets say they passed on Pippen. I think if they would have drafted Kevin Johnson, Reggie Miller, or Reggie Lewis, MJ would have won multiple rings. But due to KJ being injury prone and Lewis's tragic death, they wouldn't have got six. But I think with Reggie Miller, that would have worked GREAT! MJ or Reggie could have played SF or u could even go big backcourt. Krause was in love with Kukoc, so they would have gotten him anyway. So MJ and Miller to me together would have approached six rings in my opinion. Giving MJ Miller, Grant, Kukoc, Harper, and Rodman at different points in his career would have been more than enough to get six.

But don't get it twisted, Pippen was the more ideal fit than Miller. MJ didn't have to always be the primary playmaker or defensive stopper with Pip around. And Pip would throw in anywhere from 18-22 points a night on top of it.

[PJR]

this. Look at what he did to D Wade and Bosh who were both superstars, 1 top 3 player and the other top 10 player. A year after they joined Lebron, they both were forced into spot up shooters. Yet Le-stans are blind and call them scrubs.

Wade has not been made into a spot up shooter, dumbass. And Bosh operating primarily on the perimeter is his own choice, per his own words.

Stop posting bullshit.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan with '88-'97 Drexler = 4-6 rings

Jordan with '87-'97 Ewing = 5-7 rings

Jordan with ''87-'97 Barkley = 5-7 rings

Jordan with '88-'93 Mullin = 2-3 rings

Jordan with '92-'97 Mutombo = 2-3 rings (defensive identity based team)

How would the Bulls acquire those caliber of players? Mutumbo is the only one who is realistic. How would MJ co-exist with another high scorer like Barkley, Ewing, Drexler, or Mullin?


But looking at that 87 draft, lets say they passed on Pippen. I think if they would have drafted Kevin Johnson, Reggie Miller, or Reggie Lewis, MJ would have won multiple rings. But due to KJ being injury prone and Lewis's tragic death, they wouldn't have got six.

He would struggle with KJ. MJ would struggle working with a classical, drive and dish, ball dominant PG. With MJ, KJ would not be KJ. Besides, the Bulls never showed an interest in the PG position during the MJ years, largely for that reason.

Miller? They would not draft another SG.

Lewis? He was the 22nd pick. How likely is it that the Bulls would rate him as a top 8 prospect when no other team took him in the top 20?

The next highest SF's taken in 87' after Pippen were Derrick McKey, Ken Norman and they were not higher than 19th. Pip clearly was the top SF on the board.


pippen is just another iguodala who are dime a dozen.

:roll:


Jordan was old

MJ did not have a devastating back injury--and he took 2 years off so he did not have the mileage his age would suggest.

[OldSchoolBBall]

How would the Bulls acquire those caliber of players? Mutumbo is the only one who is realistic.

No, not really. Jordan's presence in Chicago could lure them, or MJ could go elsewhere.


He would struggle with KJ. MJ would struggle working with a classical, drive and dish, ball dominant PG. With MJ, KJ would not be KJ. Besides, the Bulls never showed an interest in the PG position during the MJ years, largely for that reason.

No, the Bulls never showed an interest in the PG position because MJ and Pippen could both take a lot of the ballhandling and playmaking responsibilities traditionally handled by PG's. To say that Jordan - perhaps the best off ball player EVER - would "struggle" with a drive and dish, pass-first PG is a JOKE, and betrays a galling lack of knowledge regarding Jordan's game.

If you were talking about Lebron or Kobe having trouble playing with that type of PG, you'd actually have a point.

[NumberSix]

Nobody knows.

[Roundball_Rock]

No, not really. Jordan's presence in Chicago could lure them, or MJ could go elsewhere.

Different era. Other than Shaq, who left for non-basketball reasons, what major free agent (meaning a top player in his prime) switched teams in the 90's? It wasn't like today where half of the top FA"s bolt. Look at what actually happened. Superstars like Ewing and Robinson spent their primes on teams that did not win and they did not bolt via free agency. They did not even demand trades. Barkley is the one guy who demanded a trade in his prime. People weren't changing teams in free agency to go for titles or more money back then.

It is interesting, though, to see MJ fans now argue that he would "collude" to bring another superstar to Chicago via free agency if the Bulls did not draft one...


To say that Jordan - perhaps the best off ball player EVER - would "struggle" with a drive and dish, pass-first PG is a JOKE

I meant struggle to co-exist and perform at the same level as he did, or the other player in question, i.e. Kevin Johnson did. A player like that would simply have the ball in his hands more than Pippen did.

[juju151111]

7 championship most likely.

[bizil]

How would the Bulls acquire those caliber of players? Mutumbo is the only one who is realistic. How would MJ co-exist with another high scorer like Barkley, Ewing, Drexler, or Mullin?



He would struggle with KJ. MJ would struggle working with a classical, drive and dish, ball dominant PG. With MJ, KJ would not be KJ. Besides, the Bulls never showed an interest in the PG position during the MJ years, largely for that reason.

Miller? They would not draft another SG.

Lewis? He was the 22nd pick. How likely is it that the Bulls would rate him as a top 8 prospect when no other team took him in the top 20?

The next highest SF's taken in 87' after Pippen were Derrick McKey, Ken Norman and they were not higher than 19th. Pip clearly was the top SF on the board.



:roll:



MJ did not have a devastating back injury--and he took 2 years off so he did not have the mileage his age would suggest.

MJ wouldn't struggle with KJ at all! KJ is one of the few PG's who can CLAIM he's an alpha dog caliber scorer AND great quarterback floor general in one. A KJ-MJ backcourt peak value wise would have been a top 5 backcourt of all time! And KJ had a devastating midrange game

Secondly I chose KJ, Miller, and Lewis because they were All Star players eventually. So if the Bulls dont' take Pippen, I was putting another All Star perimeter player in Pip's place. They took Ho Grant later in the draft so they would likely take another perimeter player. I was pointing out the greatness of MJ and stating even with KJ, Miller, or Lewis, they would have won rings. McKey was a defensive stopper they could have of course taken as well I'm aware of that. And TRUST ME MJ and Miller would have worked well together. Miller was 6'7 and of course MJ at 6'6 could play PG, SG, or SF. I NEVER said it more ideal that having a true SF. But it would have worked GREAT and would have resulted in possibly six rings.

And ya Lewis went 22nd in the draft, A DAMN STEAL. If u did that draft again, he would be a top 6 or 7 pick. The only guys on his level or higher as it turned out in the L were Robinson, Pippen, KJ, and Miller. My thread was a hypothetical one! Taking off and All Star in Pippen and REPLACING him with another All Star PG, SG, or swingman.

[Roundball_Rock]

For some context regarding a trade, look at the one major trade of the 90's, the Barkley trade. You don't get a superstar for free:


Suns Trade 3 For Barkley 76ers Get Hornacek, Perry, Lang
June 18, 1992|By CLIFTON BROWN, New York Times News Service
In a move bound to have a drastic impact on the franchise, the Philadelphia 76ers traded All-Star forward Charles Barkley to the Phoenix Suns on Wednesday. The 76ers received guard Jeff Hornacek, forward Tim Perry and center Andrew Lang.

Barkley, 29, is a six-time All-Star who averaged 23.1 points and 11.1 rebounds last season. He is a ferocious rebounder, inside scorer and ball- handler whose combination of strength and agility make him one of the league`s most effective and intimidating players.


The 76ers acknowledged the risk in trading a superstar but are gambling that acquiring three quality players will make them better.

Some NBA insiders had said that to acquire Barkley the Suns would have to give up All-Star guard Kevin Johnson.


``We were looking for a package, and once those names were there, we felt it was the package that would get it done,`` Lynam said. ``Charles has said he wants to be on a contender, and in all honesty, if we had kept Charles, I`m not sure we could strike that posture. We had to make changes. No one in our organization felt we could come back with the same team.``

Hornacek, 29, led Phoenix in scoring last season (20.1 points a game) and can play both guard positions.


THE BARKLEY DEAL WHO THE SUNS GET

-PLAYER: Charles Barkley, 6-4, forward.

-KEY STAT: Barkley (23.1 ppg., 11.1 rpg.)

-WINDERMAN COMMENT: Where will all the balls come from to keep Barkley, Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers happy? With the move, the Suns obviously are planning to move Dan Majerle into the starting lineup at off-guard and likely will need big minutes from Jerrod Mustaf to back up aging Mark West in the middle. With Mustaf and Majerle available, the Suns should only feel the loss of Hornacek, which makes the Barkley acquisition almost a steal.



-QUOTE: ``Phoenix is not a bad place. I could play golf every day.`` -- Barkley.

WHO THE 76ERS GET

-PLAYERS: Jeff Hornacek, 6-4, guard; Tim Perry, 6-9, forward; Andrew Lang, 6-11, center.

-KEY STATS: Hornacek (20.1 ppg, led Suns in scoring); Perry (12.3 ppg, 6.9 rpg.); Lang (7.7 ppg., 6.7 rpg.).

-WINDERMAN COMMENT: For the 76ers it was a good trade if for no other reason than changes had to be made. The real question is how do Hornacek and Hersey Hawkins co-exist at off-guard? And with Perry and Armon Gilliam up front, the 76ers still have a glaring need for a power forward.

-QUOTE: ``We are extremely happy to acquire these three players. We feel they will mesh tremendously in the Doug Moe system.`` -- 76ers General Manager Jim Lynam.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1992-06-18/sports/9202150121_1_charles-barkley-lynam-trade-talks

So a realistic trade where the Bulls get someone like Ewing would mean gutting the roster outside of MJ and Ewing, and the Bulls' players with decent trade value were limited to Grant for many years, Armstrong as an up and coming player in the early 90's and Kukoc in the mid-to-late 90's. A Jordan+Ewing roster could be strong but my point is you have to factor in the cost of such trades before saying "MJ + Ewing=10 rings."


Secondly I chose KJ, Miller, and Lewis because they were All Star players eventually. So if the Bulls dont' take Pippen, I was putting another All Star perimeter player in Pip's place

Yeah but that is with hindsight. In 87' Lewis was the 4th SF taken. Miller was the 11th pick so he was not that highly rated at the time. Miller was too frail to play SF. As a side note, it is funny MJ fans say Pippen was a scrub out of college but he was drafted ahead of KJ, Miller, Lewis, Grant, Mark Jackson...

There is no way to know what would happen for sure, which is what makes discussing these scenarios interesting. It is entirely possible that the Bulls would hit on the right player and select someone like Lewis (who was drafted 22nd) but the more likely scenario is they get a dud like McKey or Norman.

I am not saying KJ and MJ could not do well. It would just require more adapting than other players and KJ would not be KJ with MJ.

[knicksman]

pippen is not even the best fit for jordan. a pure pg is. Just look at how devastating magic/kareem is yet jordan managed to win with him.

[Ne 1]

pippen is not even the best fit for jordan. a pure pg is. Just look at how devastating magic/kareem is yet jordan managed to win with him.
Pippen was the Bulls de facto PG as he pretty much played PG offensively.

[HylianNightmare]

3. 4 max