Has Jordan become overrated?

[dc_chilling]

Let me start off by saying Michael Jordan is the GOAT imho. The point of this isn't to discredit anything he has done. However, as an objective basketball fan, I can't help but notice how MJ has become this mythological creature to some people.

The myth of MJ gets heightened whenever Kobe or Lebron get brought up especially. To discredit Kobe it was easy, just turn to the stats. For Lebron, the stats argument doesn't work as well. Rather, it has become an exercise of measuring things that can't be measured. Stupid shit like, "MJ would have never came out of a game with cramps" or "MJ's mental toughness would have forced him to overcome any team in any game".

The truth is, Jordan was human. I watched him struggle in the finals against the Sonics. He spent over 1/3 of his career without making it out of the first round with a combined record of 1-9 in the playoffs over that stretch. It is no coincidence that those were the years without Pippen btw. He had bad games, missed game winning shots (sometimes multiple in the same game), and was accused numerous times of being a bad teammate. He wasn't perfect. I know it sounds crazy, but it's true.

So no, Jordan was not a god among men. People have become so obsessed with trying to protect his legacy that they discredit all great players that follow him. MJ is in his 50's, people should try to appreciate the greatness of the players playing today.

One last thing, enough with the 6 for 6 argument. It is just moronic. All that means is that in the 8 seasons Jordan didn't win a championship, he lost earlier in the playoffs. If a player goes 6 for 10 in the finals, it is far more impressive than 6 for 6. It isn't rocket science; the player that went 6 for 10 took his team further in the playoffs than the player that went 6 for 6 on four more occasions.

So again, MJ is the GOAT as of now. He just wasn't a god.

[Soundwave]

His career has mythic qualities to it, why does that bother people?

Dude simply had a very special, storybook type of career that is fairly rare in sports.

Wayne Gretzky is maybe the only other modern comparable from a team sport, and even Gretzky didn't enjoy the team success the Bulls had in the second half of his career, after he was traded to LA he only made the finals once in his last 11 seasons.

There's no basketball player in NBA history that would've made those early Bulls teams decent anyway (lets see Magic work with Bill Corzine instead of Kareem), I would say more to the point the rest of the NBA was lucky that he didn't have a decent team sooner (which he probably would have if say Portland had drafted him instead of lol Sam Bowie).

[j3lademaster]

The new cool "hipster" thing is to hate on Jordan, so no he's not overrated by the majority of the sheeple.

[riseagainst]

OP is a fakkit.

[returnofthemack]

Jordan is the goat. Most people rate him as goat. Therefore no he's not over rated

[atljonesbro]

The new cool "hipster" thing is to hate on Jordan, so no he's not overrated by the majority of the sheeple.
False. People just don't like his stans spreading propaganda and telling tall tales about Jordan.

[Living Being]

So again, MJ is the GOAT as of now. He just wasn't a god.
GOAT status is debatable. Had no idea he wasn't a god. thx

MJ > LeBag

[AnaheimLakers24]

jordan > bitch boy bran
kobe > bitch boy bran
5> 2
6> 2

[fpliii]

The thing is though, it's not just about the narrative/circumstances. He played the game at a higher level than everyone or almost everyone in league history, and had a consistently great prime. Dude straight beasted.

[Soundwave]

False. People just don't like his stans spreading propaganda and telling tall tales about Jordan.

There's no reason to tell "tall tales" about Jordan, his career couldn't be written any better, if it was a Hollywood movie it would be deemed unrealistic (aside from I guess that Wizards subplot that no one really enjoyed).

His last game with the Bulls is the game winning shot to win the championship and seal a second threepeat ... I mean are you f**king kidding me? That happens in the movies, it's not supposed to happen in real life.

The other thing is the Bulls were never properly "dethroned". The Lakers and Celtics humbled each other, the Pistons beat both ... but no one really toppled the Bulls, they ended as champions which is fairly rare in team sports as well.

[dc_chilling]

The thing is though, it's not just about the narrative/circumstances. He played the game at a higher level than everyone or almost everyone in league history, and had a consistently great prime. Dude straight beasted.

I completely agree. I am not arguing that he isn't the GOAT. MJ was a monster and I idolized him growing up.

That doesn't change the fact that he has become a mythological figure. I was just sick of reading dumb shit like "Jordan would drop 60 a game in today's NBA". It is just moronic. Watch Wade at the peak of his powers in 09 and tell me Jordan was 30 ppg better. Or watch Kobe when he was at the peak of his powers in 06 and tell me Jordan was 25 ppg better. :facepalm

[ILLsmak]

Jordan has been overrated. He was overrated during the 2nd 3 peat. Probably before, but I wasn't old enough or a fan enough to tell.

-Smak

[Soundwave]

I completely agree. I am not arguing that he isn't the GOAT. MJ was a monster and I idolized him growing up.

That doesn't change the fact that he has become a mythological figure. I was just sick of reading dumb shit like "Jordan would drop 60 a game in today's NBA". It is just moronic. Watch Wade at the peak of his powers in 09 and tell me Jordan was 30 ppg better. Or watch Kobe when he was at the peak of his powers in 06 and tell me Jordan was 25 ppg better. :facepalm

Who seriously says this? Like c'mon.

I think we just live in a society where it's "unpolite" to label one person better than another, so we can't have a "GOAT" because everyone needs a ribbon to feel special.

[STATUTORY]

The thing is though, it's not just about the narrative/circumstances. He played the game at a higher level than everyone or almost everyone in league history, and had a consistently great prime. Dude straight beasted.

but those arguments become moot when we comparing between eras and generations. he was the best of the 80s-90s crack and HIV epidemic descimated era of basketball yes

but how does that translate to 2000s

[fpliii]

I completely agree. I am not arguing that he isn't the GOAT. MJ was a monster and I idolized him growing up.

That doesn't change the fact that he has become a mythological figure. I was just sick of reading dumb shit like "Jordan would drop 60 a game in today's NBA". It is just moronic. Watch Wade at the peak of his powers in 09 and tell me Jordan was 30 ppg better. Or watch Kobe when he was at the peak of his powers in 06 and tell me Jordan was 25 ppg better. :facepalm
You can't think about it in terms of ppg though. Both were perhaps as good or better than MJ during his second threepeat, but during his prime (87-88 through 92-93), he had them beat in terms of shot selection, shooting ability from midrange, post game/strength, half court quickness, off ball play, athleticism, man defense, help defense, and clutch shooting. That isn't a myth.

I only caught the tale end of his prime, but he was dominating like peak Shaq or Hakeem did, and he's not a center.

[STATUTORY]

The thing is though, it's not just about the narrative/circumstances. He played the game at a higher level than everyone or almost everyone in league history, and had a consistently great prime. Dude straight beasted.

but those arguments become moot when we comparing between eras and generations. he was the best of the 80s-90s crack and HIV epidemic descimated era of basketball yes

but how does that translate to 2000s

[ralph_i_el]

The new cool "hipster" thing is to hate on Jordan, so no he's not overrated by the majority of the sheeple.
"hipsters" :facepalm

[fpliii]

but those arguments become moot when we comparing between eras and generations. he was the best of the 80s-90s crack and HIV epidemic descimated era of basketball yes

but how does that translate to 2000s
That's why we have message boards brah. It's all opinion.

[Soundwave]

but those arguments become moot when we comparing between eras and generations. he was the best of the 80s-90s crack and HIV epidemic descimated era of basketball yes

but how does that translate to 2000s

You mean when he was 40 and still dropping 20 a night? :lol

[97 bulls]

The only way Jordan is overrated is when his worshippers attempt to make the claim that he won all six of his championships with minimal help.

[lefthook00]

Absolutely has not become overrated. After watching players as good as Kobe and LeBron struggle and lose in the Finals, MJ looks even better.

[ralph_i_el]

You mean when he was 40 and still dropping 20 a night? :lol

dropping 20 a night ballhogging his teams to a ton of losses on terrible efficiency :applause: I was there suffering through it

[Soundwave]

Absolutely has not become overrated. After watching players as good as Kobe and LeBron struggle and lose in the Finals, MJ looks even better.

Yeah people should look at the brick wall Kobe and LeBron have run into and actually realize that winning three titles in a row and having 5/6 incredible NBA Finals and one that was just "pretty good" is actually fairly f*cking incredible.

27.3/5.3 apg/4.7 rpg/1.7 spg is what qualifies as a "horrible" NBA Finals for Michael Jordan.

[dc_chilling]

You can't think about it in terms of ppg though. Both were perhaps as good or better than MJ during his second threepeat, but during his prime (87-88 through 92-93), he had them beat in terms of shot selection, shooting ability from midrange, post game/strength, half court quickness, off ball play, athleticism, man defense, help defense, and clutch shooting. That isn't a myth.

I only caught the tale end of his prime, but he was dominating like peak Shaq or Hakeem did, and he's not a center.

I don't think in terms of ppg. I was just using it as an example.

Imho Wade and Kobe were pretty close to MJ at their peaks. It's the truth. Obviously they were not as good, but they weren't scrubs either.

[SamuraiSWISH]

His career has mythic qualities to it, why does that bother people?
Seriously, get over it people. How can you be the GOAT, and overrated at the same time. People just sound salty about it. You have people claiming to be Bulls fans trying to throw shade at the guy.

[Hey Yo]

Let me start off by saying Michael Jordan is the GOAT imho. The point of this isn't to discredit anything he has done. However, as an objective basketball fan, I can't help but notice how MJ has become this mythological creature to some people.

The myth of MJ gets heightened whenever Kobe or Lebron get brought up especially. To discredit Kobe it was easy, just turn to the stats. For Lebron, the stats argument doesn't work as well. Rather, it has become an exercise of measuring things that can't be measured. Stupid shit like, "MJ would have never came out of a game with cramps" or "MJ's mental toughness would have forced him to overcome any team in any game".

The truth is, Jordan was human. I watched him struggle in the finals against the Sonics. He spent over 1/3 of his career without making it out of the first round with a combined record of 1-9 in the playoffs over that stretch. It is no coincidence that those were the years without Pippen btw. He had bad games, missed game winning shots (sometimes multiple in the same game), and was accused numerous times of being a bad teammate. He wasn't perfect. I know it sounds crazy, but it's true.

So no, Jordan was not a god among men. People have become so obsessed with trying to protect his legacy that they discredit all great players that follow him. MJ is in his 50's, people should try to appreciate the greatness of the players playing today.

One last thing, enough with the 6 for 6 argument. It is just moronic. All that means is that in the 8 seasons Jordan didn't win a championship, he lost earlier in the playoffs. If a player goes 6 for 10 in the finals, it is far more impressive than 6 for 6. It isn't rocket science; the player that went 6 for 10 took his team further in the playoffs than the player that went 6 for 6 on four more occasions.

So again, MJ is the GOAT as of now. He just wasn't a god.
I'm guessing you read this article from Sports Illustrated?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20140612/lebron-james-nba-finals/#ixzz34Svqkzff

Very good article btw

[fpliii]

I don't think in terms of ppg. I was just using it as an example.

Imho Wade and Kobe were pretty close to MJ at their peaks. It's the truth. Obviously they were not as good, but they weren't scrubs either.
I can't agree with that. Maybe relatively speaking, but peak MJ was another level of player. Only centers have matched that type of impact and production. Agree to disagree I guess, but Wade and Kobe were more like second threepeat MJ if anything in terms of level of play.

Other than the GOAT centers, maybe some others have come close to 88-93 Jordan (Duncan, KG, LeBron), but I didn't see it from Wade/Kobe (and I say that as a big fan of both).

[Soundwave]

I don't think in terms of ppg. I was just using it as an example.

Imho Wade and Kobe were pretty close to MJ at their peaks. It's the truth. Obviously they were not as good, but they weren't scrubs either.

Who said they were scrubs?

"Pretty close" is a relative term too. Clyde Drexler was "pretty close" to Michael Jordan in his prime, so were a number of players (albiet at other positions).

"Pretty close" can be the difference between 6 championships and 2 or 1 or 0.

The whole point of pro sports is to see who is the cream of the crop, who rises when the situation is the most gruelling.

Alonzo Mourning was "pretty good" but he's no Shaq. A BMW M5 is "pretty good" but its no Ferrari.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Absolutely has not become overrated. After watching players as good as Kobe and LeBron struggle and lose in the Finals, MJ looks even better.
Honesty. From a Laker / Kobe fan no less.

:pimp:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Seriously, get over it people. How can you be the GOAT, and overrated at the same time. People just sound salty about it. You have people claiming to be Bulls fans trying to throw shade at the guy.

I agree with his post, and your point in general, but YOU CAN be both overrated and great (or GOAT--some Jordan jockers claim Kareem isn't even on his level :oldlol:)

Bron and Kobe fans overrate their guy to no end on these boards..

[dc_chilling]

Yeah people should look at the brick wall Kobe and LeBron have run into and actually realize that winning three titles in a row and having 5/6 incredible NBA Finals and one that was just "pretty good" is actually fairly f*cking incredible.

27.3/5.3 apg/4.7 rpg/1.7 spg is what qualifies as a "horrible" NBA Finals for Michael Jordan.

Anyone who watched those finals recognizes how inefficient Jordan was to get those points. GP was putting in work on Jordan.

Jordan still got his though, but it wasn't pretty.

[Marchesk]

Magic had a pretty mythical career right from the get go. It just ended early.

[dc_chilling]

I'm guessing you read this article from Sports Illustrated?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20140612/lebron-james-nba-finals/#ixzz34Svqkzff

Very good article btw

I actually did. It was a good article.

I have thought this for a while, but I thought it would be a good topic to bring up on the board. I expected some serious heat from the Jordan stans though.

[Legends66NBA7]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20140612/lebron-james-nba-finals/#ixzz34YeepLIl


But I suspect he'll be sheer hell for the Spurs on Thursday night.

Yeah... a little too late when he decided go off.

[Legends66NBA7]

Magic had a pretty mythical career right from the get go. It just ended early.

If anything, I don't see how he doesn't get the absurd hatred even more so than guys like Duncan, Bryant, Shaq, and James do. Those 4 get blamed for all the talent around them and Magic basically had loaded lineups his whole career too.

[Hey Yo]

I actually did. It was a good article.

I have thought this for a while, but I thought it would be a good topic to bring up on the board. I expected some serious heat from the Jordan stans though.
Definitely be a good topic. When Jordan quit and walked away, according to MJ stans he was tired of dominating.

If LeBron quit this year and decided to play baseball, he would be crucified and called a mental midget.

[fpliii]

Anyone who watched those finals recognizes how inefficient Jordan was to get those points. GP was putting in work on Jordan.

Jordan still got his though, but it wasn't pretty.

If we are being honest, GP was the only legitimate defender Jordan faced in the finals. MJ feasted on the likes of Ainge, Marjerle, Hornacek, and Russell.
It's not just the Finals though. Regardless of era, you're playing two legitimate series. Your conference finals (best team in your conference) and the NBA Finals (best team in the other conference). Dumars was legit, and so was Rodman (who guarded MJ a good deal).

In general though, great players don't face individual defenders. Even though zones weren't the same, MJ still went up against elite team defenses. Detroit, the Knicks, even the Cavs and the Dunleavy Lakers to some extent, all looked to take away the drive. Look at this series...LeBron's not getting single covered, the Spurs are loading up the strong side to take him out of the game. Teams did the same thing to Shaq too, and resorted to bush league fouling tactics (same shit Wilt faced back in the day by all accounts).

[fpliii]

If anything, I don't see how he doesn't get the absurd hatred even more so than guys like Duncan, Bryant, Shaq, and James do. Those 3 gets blamed for all the talent around them and Magic basically had loaded lineups his whole career too.
Plus he played in the 80s West, which was an abortion of a conference.

He's less polarizing, though, and he won right away (and was big in the closeout game), so the narrative certainly was in his favor.

[Hey Yo]

If anything, I don't see how he doesn't get the absurd hatred even more so than guys like Duncan, Bryant, Shaq, and James do. Those 3 gets blamed for all the talent around them and Magic basically had loaded lineups his whole career too.

Magic's comment about if Chicago would have won the coin flip and received the first overall pick:

I would have never played for the Bulls. I wanted to play with Kareem

[Soundwave]

The other thing I appreciate about MJ is just the overall lack of b*tchmade-ness :lol

Kobe cries every time he doesn't have a loaded team (yet doesn't take a pay cut) and drove Shaq out of town. Shaq is turn was an immature doofus. LeBron has his mental midget moments and the whole "it's gonna be easy" nonsense when going to Miami.

DRose sits out if he has a papercut, the Bulls couldn't keep Jordan off the court in 86.

Even Magic had a lot of bullsh*t in his career ... he refused to be drafted by the Bulls (yet Jordan made no fuss), got a coach fired, etc. When the Bulls were getting whupped by the Pistons, Jordan shook their hands every year. When they lost to Orlando in '95 he made no big fuss about it and just went back to work in the gym.

Bird I think was the same. Just no-nonsense ... I wanna be the best player possible, I want the ball in big situations, etc. Duncan is like that too. I respect guys like that.

[Psileas]

It's one thing to have someone as the GOAT and another to pretend that it's not even arguable and almost get insulted if someone mentions another name, which lots of mainstream and casual fans do. It's possible to be the GOAT (or close to it) and still be overrated.

You can't call someone the GOAT "by far"/"easily" and then offer excuses like "but, but he didn't have great teammates" when facing facts like that, without great rosters in the 80's, his teams never really overachieved, let alone failing to win titles. What kind of "easily GOAT" needs such excuses?

[Soundwave]

Anyone who watched those finals recognizes how inefficient Jordan was to get those points. GP was putting in work on Jordan.

Jordan still got his though, but it wasn't pretty.

That was a horrific Finals by his ridiculous standards, but if you want to see "not pretty" go watch some of Kobe or LeBron's low points in the Finals and come back to me.

The '96 Finals were basically over before they started anyway, the Bulls got up 3-0 and the rest of the series was basically just Seattle trying to save face.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The '96 Finals were basically over before they started anyway, the Bulls got up 3-0 and the rest of the series was basically just Seattle trying to save face.
Precisely. MJ killed it in game 3 in Seattle too. Then his abysmal shooting games came when the series had pretty much been won. And Seattle was just buying time to make an attempt to keep the series competitive. MJ's worst Finals is way better than the worst we've seen from Kobe, LeBron, Magic, and Bird.


Magic's comment about if Chicago would have won the coin flip and received the first overall pick:

I would have never played for the Bulls. I wanted to play with Kareem
That's cause Magic is a puss. Kind of like LeBron. Lack of true competitiveness. The need to stack the deck.

[Rose'sACL]

The other thing I appreciate about MJ is just the overall lack of b*tchmade-ness :lol

Kobe cries every time he doesn't have a loaded team (yet doesn't take a pay cut) and drove Shaq out of town. Shaq is turn was an immature doofus. LeBron has his mental midget moments and the whole "it's gonna be easy" nonsense when going to Miami.

DRose sits out if he has a papercut, the Bulls couldn't keep Jordan off the court in 86.

Even Magic had a lot of bullsh*t in his career ... he refused to be drafted by the Bulls (yet Jordan made no fuss), got a coach fired, etc. When the Bulls were getting whupped by the Pistons, Jordan shook their hands every year. When they lost to Orlando in '95 he made no big fuss about it and just went back to work in the gym.

Bird I think was the same. Just no-nonsense ... I wanna be the best player possible, I want the ball in big situations, etc. Duncan is like that too. I respect guys like that.
This is why bird is my favorite player of all time. i like lebron's play on the court but i don't like him off the court even though i don't hate him for it but he should have just accepted the villain image instead of trying to improve his image by giving cliched answers. I think if lebron accepted the role of villain, he would be a better player.
If by some probability bird played in this era and left a team with bad front office, he would just tell media to fck off if they asked about pressure of playing with all the hate against him. He would just not talk about it at all which is what lebron should have done but he does talk about it when he can just say "no" to those questions like Pop does.

[dc_chilling]

It's one thing to have someone as the GOAT and another to pretend that it's not even arguable and almost get insulted if someone mentions another name, which lots of mainstream and casual fans do. It's possible to be the GOAT (or close to it) and still be overrated.

You can't call someone the GOAT "by far"/"easily" and then offer excuses like "but, but he didn't have great teammates" when facing facts like that, without great rosters in the 80's, his teams never really overachieved, let alone failing to win titles. What kind of "easily GOAT" needs such excuses?

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.:applause:

[Hey Yo]

yeah, James played 7yrs for one of the worst franchises in NBA history because he needed a stacked deck.

[step_back]

His resume speaks for itself.

6 Championships
6 finals MVP's
5 MVP's
DPOY
ROY
10 Time scoring Champion
2 Olympic Gold medals
13 Time NBA All star
3 All Star MVP's

He achieved all this over a 13 year career in the NBA 13 years!

He's considered the GOAT for a reason. The only people who don't think he is are generally people who were too young to see him play. In which case they know jack shit!

[Dro]

If anything he's becoming underrated with all the players that people try to act like are on his level.......whether its Kobe, Lebron or whoever.........NONE of these dudes are close to Jordan........they're just not.....

[AirFederer]

6/6/6

And effing eye test lol

Next

[Hey Yo]

From the link I posted from the SI article,but the author switched MJ's name to LeBron's on purpose.

In the 1996 NBA Finals against Seattle, LeBron James averaged 27.3 points. 5.3 rebounds and 4.2 assists. He also shot 42 percent from the field, 32 percent from three, 84 percent from the line. He averaged three turnovers per game, and in the deciding Game 6 against the Sonics, he had as many turnovers (five) as made baskets (five, on 19 shots).
In fact, in the last three games of those '96 Finals, James shot 37 percent, with 11 turnovers. Nonetheless, James' Chicago Bulls won, and James was once again named Finals MVP.

James is putting up better numbers than those now (on the underdog team) and is getting hammered.

[Soundwave]

Well the other issue is the NBA really has never seen a player have such individual statistical dominance combined with winning dominance.

No other player in the modern era has more than 3 titles as the clear cut no.1 option on their team ... Magic has 3, Bird has 3 (even though that's only 2 FMVPs), Kobe has 2, LeBron has 2, Duncan has 3, Shaq has 3, Kareem has 3 ...

Jordan has 6.

And then he has a lot of the individual feathers in his cap too, highest ppg in NBA history, quite a few MVPs, FMVPs, etc. He combines a lot of Wilt's highs (the individual "best player" stuff) with a lot of Russell's highs (the team dominance) into one package.

From a basketball purist standpoint too, he doesn't have very many weaknesses in his game. Incredible offensive player, very good defensive player, incredible finisher/clutch player.

[UK2K]

He took seasons off and didn't play due to injury and still is the GOAT.

That speaks for itself.

[SouBeachTalents]

This is why bird is my favorite player of all time. i like lebron's play on the court but i don't like him off the court even though i don't hate him for it but he should have just accepted the villain image instead of trying to improve his image by giving cliched answers. I think if lebron accepted the role of villain, he would be a better player.
If by some probability bird played in this era and left a team with bad front office, he would just tell media to fck off if they asked about pressure of playing with all the hate against him. He would just not talk about it at all which is what lebron should have done but he does talk about it when he can just say "no" to those questions like Pop does.

He tried being the villain his first year on the Heat, he ended up like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3kKxtSQa-4

[Roundball_Rock]

Do you see this type of god-like mythology around any other player? It has reached a point where people will at times say "MJ would never _____ " when the real-life MJ actually did that very thing!


He achieved all this over a 13 year career in the NBA 13 years!

Case in point. Do you see any other player whose career has entire years "erased" from his history like MJ mythologists do with MJ (he played for 15 years)?


It's one thing to have someone as the GOAT and another to pretend that it's not even arguable and almost get insulted if someone mentions another name, which lots of mainstream and casual fans do. It's possible to be the GOAT (or close to it) and still be overrated.

You can't call someone the GOAT "by far"/"easily" and then offer excuses like "but, but he didn't have great teammates" when facing facts like that, without great rosters in the 80's, his teams never really overachieved, let alone failing to win titles. What kind of "easily GOAT" needs such excuses?


:bowdown:

KAJ has the best overall case for GOAT--he was the best player, had by far the best longevity, was individually dominant and won 6 rings in the NBA and 3 titles in college--but Wilt, Russell and MJ also have strong cases.


He took seasons off and didn't play due to injury and still is the GOAT.

Longevity is always an element in all-time rankings. KAJ was a MVP caliber/all-NBA first team player at ages 38/39 without taking multiple breaks. MJ could "only" put together 12 elite seasons. Since MJ is the weakest top 10 player in terms of longevity outside of Bird (who had back issues), that factor conveniently is diminished uniquely in the basketball world.

[dc_chilling]

Do you see this type of god-like mythology around any other player? It has reached a point where people will at times say "MJ would never _____ " when the real-life MJ actually did that very thing!



Case in point. Do you see any other player whose career has entire years "erased" from his history like MJ mythologists do with MJ (he played for 15 years)?




:bowdown:

KAJ has the best overall case for GOAT--he was the best player, had by far the best longevity, was individually dominant and won 6 rings in the NBA and 3 titles in college--but Wilt, Russell and MJ also have strong cases.



Longevity is always an element in all-time rankings. KAJ was a MVP caliber/all-NBA first team player at ages 38/39 without taking multiple breaks. MJ could "only" put together 12 elite seasons. Since MJ is the weakest top 10 player in terms of longevity outside of Bird (who had back issues), that factor conveniently is diminished uniquely in the basketball world.

:applause: :applause:

Longevity is never accounted for when ranking players, although it should.

Case in point, Lebron vs. Bird. Think whatever you want about their peaks, but one thing that can't be ignored is this.

Bird played 10 seasons of more than 70 games in his career.
Lebron has already played 11 seasons and he is only 29.

[juju151111]

Do you see this type of god-like mythology around any other player? It has reached a point where people will at times say "MJ would never _____ " when the real-life MJ actually did that very thing!



Case in point. Do you see any other player whose career has entire years "erased" from his history like MJ mythologists do with MJ (he played for 15 years)?




:bowdown:

KAJ has the best overall case for GOAT--he was the best player, had by far the best longevity, was individually dominant and won 6 rings in the NBA and 3 titles in college--but Wilt, Russell and MJ also have strong cases.



Longevity is always an element in all-time rankings. KAJ was a MVP caliber/all-NBA first team player at ages 38/39 without taking multiple breaks. MJ could "only" put together 12 elite seasons. Since MJ is the weakest top 10 player in terms of longevity outside of Bird (who had back issues), that factor conveniently is diminished uniquely in the basketball world.
Mj>KAJ slightly

[Sarcastic]

He's better than LeBron James. That's all that matters.

[step_back]

Do you see this type of god-like mythology around any other player? It has reached a point where people will at times say "MJ would never _____ " when the real-life MJ actually did that very thing!



Case in point. Do you see any other player whose career has entire years "erased" from his history like MJ mythologists do with MJ (he played for 15 years)?




:bowdown:

KAJ has the best overall case for GOAT--he was the best player, had by far the best longevity, was individually dominant and won 6 rings in the NBA and 3 titles in college--but Wilt, Russell and MJ also have strong cases.



Longevity is always an element in all-time rankings. KAJ was a MVP caliber/all-NBA first team player at ages 38/39 without taking multiple breaks. MJ could "only" put together 12 elite seasons. Since MJ is the weakest top 10 player in terms of longevity outside of Bird (who had back issues), that factor conveniently is diminished uniquely in the basketball world.

He achieved all those Championships and MVP's as a Chicago Bull. Which was 13 years. Regardless of him coming back as a Wizard it still remains the same. 6 chips, 6 Finals MVPs, DPOY, ROY, 5 MVP's in 13 years. Hell list it as 15 years for all I care.

KAJ has the best overall case for GOAT--he was the best player, had by far the best longevity, was individually dominant and won 6 rings in the NBA and 3 titles in college--but Wilt, Russell and MJ also have strong cases.

This thread isn't about longevity it was about Jordan being over rated. It seems that the only way you deem KAJ being better than Jordan is by using longevity. Because Jordan was certainly the best player, was also individually dominant and also won 6 rings.

Surely longevity means players like Karl Malone should be viewed as higher than they are because even though he didn't win a championship he played for a long time at a high level. Rankings should be based on team and individual achievement of which Jordan has excelled in both.

This is why he is generally considered the GOAT.

If you think KAJ is the GOAT that's fine but I'd like to see some evidence other than he played at a high level for a long time.

[INDI]

Let me start off by saying Michael Jordan is the GOAT imho. The point of this isn't to discredit anything he has done. However, as an objective basketball fan, I can't help but notice how MJ has become this mythological creature to some people.

The myth of MJ gets heightened whenever Kobe or Lebron get brought up especially. To discredit Kobe it was easy, just turn to the stats. For Lebron, the stats argument doesn't work as well. Rather, it has become an exercise of measuring things that can't be measured. Stupid shit like, "MJ would have never came out of a game with cramps" or "MJ's mental toughness would have forced him to overcome any team in any game".

The truth is, Jordan was human. I watched him struggle in the finals against the Sonics. He spent over 1/3 of his career without making it out of the first round with a combined record of 1-9 in the playoffs over that stretch. It is no coincidence that those were the years without Pippen btw. He had bad games, missed game winning shots (sometimes multiple in the same game), and was accused numerous times of being a bad teammate. He wasn't perfect. I know it sounds crazy, but it's true.

So no, Jordan was not a god among men. People have become so obsessed with trying to protect his legacy that they discredit all great players that follow him. MJ is in his 50's, people should try to appreciate the greatness of the players playing today.

One last thing, enough with the 6 for 6 argument. It is just moronic. All that means is that in the 8 seasons Jordan didn't win a championship, he lost earlier in the playoffs. If a player goes 6 for 10 in the finals, it is far more impressive than 6 for 6. It isn't rocket science; the player that went 6 for 10 took his team further in the playoffs than the player that went 6 for 6 on four more occasions.

So again, MJ is the GOAT as of now. He just wasn't a god.

His game was mythological while he was playing also

[Phantom84]

He achieved all those Championships and MVP's as a Chicago Bull. Which was 13 years. Regardless of him coming back as a Wizard it still remains the same. 6 chips, 6 Finals MVPs, DPOY, ROY, 5 MVP's in 13 years. Hell list it as 15 years for all I care.

KAJ has the best overall case for GOAT--he was the best player, had by far the best longevity, was individually dominant and won 6 rings in the NBA and 3 titles in college--but Wilt, Russell and MJ also have strong cases.

This thread isn't about longevity it was about Jordan being over rated. It seems that the only way you deem KAJ being better than Jordan is by using longevity. Because Jordan was certainly the best player, was also individually dominant and also won 6 rings.

Surely longevity means players like Karl Malone should be viewed as higher than they are because even though he didn't win a championship he played for a long time at a high level. Rankings should be based on team and individual achievement of which Jordan has excelled in both.

This is why he is generally considered the GOAT.

If you think KAJ is the GOAT that's fine but I'd like to see some evidence other than he played at a high level for a long time.

Not to mention KAJ play with another top 5 player of all times. I can't put KAJ ahead of MJ for that reason alone. Magic >> Pippen.

[sdot_thadon]

Op, I agree with what you're getting at. I posted this idea a while back and it wasn't a very popular opinion. Mj is my goat, with that said I don't believe there is a definitive goat. There's a few others that have just as strong cases for different reasons. So anytime someone says "and it ain't even close" it's clear they don't know their shit. Mj was amazing, so amazing that he doesn't need so much defending or exaggeration. His results stand on their own, I think that by turning him into a ghost story these guys aren't doing him any favors. It actually hurt Wilt more than it helped when our generation started being involved in historical debates.

[knicksman]

only idiots rank KAJ ahead of jordan. but I wont be surprised if thats coming from a bran fan. I mean lebron has the potential to be GOAT when he has bosh(better than pippen) and wade yet Jordan isnt because of Pippen.:oldlol:

And then KAJ is GOAT because he just doesnt just have a pippen(worthy) but also the real GOAT candidate(magic) yet jordan is not. How stupid is that?? Damn bran stans are really lacking in IQ department. Maybe these kids should take school seriously .

[bagelred]

To give you some perspective, ESPN did a list of the Top North American athletes of the 20th Century. It was a big deal at the time....you know, releasing one name at a time by day/week whatever....until they got to #1. Here is the list for you:

https://espn.go.com/sportscentury/athletes.html


No...Jordan is not overrated....

[Roundball_Rock]

Prime Kareem versus Prime Jordan in the regular season

KAJ 28/14/5/4/1 on 56%
MJ 33/6/6/1/3 on 52%


KAJ took 21 FGA and 7 FTA while MJ took 24 FGA and 9 FTA.

Prime Kareem versus Prime Jordan in the playoffs

KAJ 30/16/4/3/1 on 54%
MJ 35/7/6/1/2 on 50%

MJ took 25 FGA and 10 FTA while the respective figures for KAJ were 23.5 and 7 FTA.

I used 1970-1980 for prime KAJ and 1987-1993 for prime MJ.

[livinglegend]

Prime Kareem versus Prime Jordan in the regular season

KAJ 28/14/5/4/1 on 56%
MJ 33/6/6/1/3 on 52%


KAJ took 21 FGA and 7 FTA while MJ took 24 FGA and 9 FTA.

Prime Kareem versus Prime Jordan in the playoffs

KAJ 30/16/4/3/1 on 54%
MJ 35/7/6/1/2 on 50%

MJ took 25 FGA and 10 FTA while the respective figures for KAJ were 23.5 and 7 FTA.

I used 1970-1980 for prime KAJ and 1987-1993 for prime MJ.

wow those are amazing stats especially for a 10 years stretch!
And prime KAJ stats are better than prime MJ stats.:applause:

[mehyaM24]

Prime Kareem versus Prime Jordan in the regular season

KAJ 28/14/5/4/1 on 56%
MJ 33/6/6/1/3 on 52%


KAJ took 21 FGA and 7 FTA while MJ took 24 FGA and 9 FTA.

Prime Kareem versus Prime Jordan in the playoffs

KAJ 30/16/4/3/1 on 54%
MJ 35/7/6/1/2 on 50%

MJ took 25 FGA and 10 FTA while the respective figures for KAJ were 23.5 and 7 FTA.

I used 1970-1980 for prime KAJ and 1987-1993 for prime MJ.

bbbut jordan is the goat and its not close!! LMAO

jordan is lucky he never got to see this spurs team.....or lebron for that matter

[GODbe]

He's been overrated before he even entered the league. It's only grown more and more since then.

[juju151111]

Prime Kareem versus Prime Jordan in the regular season

KAJ 28/14/5/4/1 on 56%
MJ 33/6/6/1/3 on 52%


KAJ took 21 FGA and 7 FTA while MJ took 24 FGA and 9 FTA.

Prime Kareem versus Prime Jordan in the playoffs

KAJ 30/16/4/3/1 on 54%
MJ 35/7/6/1/2 on 50%

MJ took 25 FGA and 10 FTA while the respective figures for KAJ were 23.5 and 7 FTA.

I used 1970-1980 for prime KAJ and 1987-1993 for prime MJ.
Damn Goat How many chips Won from 1970-80. He has Four chips has the man and Magic the next two.

[Roundball_Rock]

Damn Goat How many chips Won from 1970-80. He has Four chips has the man and Magic the next two.

Basketball is a team game. Rings should be a factor--an important factor--but not be the preponderant factor. Luck also matters. KAJ easily could have had 2-3 more rings in the 70's if injuries broke in his favor.

I hope Duncan teaches people about 87' and 88' KAJ. Like Duncan, by that point KAJ was no longer the best player but he remained their leader, their anchor--and KAJ remained the go-to guy in the clutch despite his age. Riley was drawing up clutch plays for Kareem at the end of games in both those Finals. I think in one game they ran consecutive plays for Kareem. So yeah, by then he was not "the man" but, like Duncan, he was very important to them winning (more so in 87' when he still averaged 19 ppg in the playoffs and 22 ppg in the Finals).

I think MJ has a case for GOAT but I find it absurd to think MJ>>>>>>>>>>KAJ/Wilt/Russell. The stats speak for themselves. KAJ had better numbers and as a center had superior defensive impact.

[juju151111]

Basketball is a team game. Rings should be a factor--an important factor--but not be the preponderant factor. Luck also matters. KAJ easily could have had 2-3 more rings in the 70's if injuries broke in his favor.

I hope Duncan teaches people about 87' and 88' KAJ. Like Duncan, by that point KAJ was no longer the best player but he remained their leader, their anchor--and KAJ remained the go-to guy in the clutch despite his age. Riley was drawing up clutch plays for Kareem at the end of games in both those Finals. I think in one game they ran consecutive plays for Kareem. So yeah, by then he was not "the man" but, like Duncan, he was very important to them winning (more so in 87' when he still averaged 19 ppg in the playoffs and 22 ppg in the Finals).

I think MJ has a case for GOAT but I find it absurd to think MJ>>>>>>>>>>KAJ/Wilt/Russell. The stats speak for themselves. KAJ had better numbers and as a center had superior defensive impact.
What about 1988 finals? He had like 13 on 41% shooting. 4 th best player on a championship team. Kareem was the best player but underperformed a lot through out the 70s.

[Asukal]

Basketball is a team game. Rings should be a factor--an important factor--but not be the preponderant factor. Luck also matters. KAJ easily could have had 2-3 more rings in the 70's if injuries broke in his favor.

I hope Duncan teaches people about 87' and 88' KAJ. Like Duncan, by that point KAJ was no longer the best player but he remained their leader, their anchor--and KAJ remained the go-to guy in the clutch despite his age. Riley was drawing up clutch plays for Kareem at the end of games in both those Finals. I think in one game they ran consecutive plays for Kareem. So yeah, by then he was not "the man" but, like Duncan, he was very important to them winning (more so in 87' when he still averaged 19 ppg in the playoffs and 22 ppg in the Finals).

I think MJ has a case for GOAT but I find it absurd to think MJ>>>>>>>>>>KAJ/Wilt/Russell. The stats speak for themselves. KAJ had better numbers and as a center had superior defensive impact.

Better numbers? You mean more rebounds and blocks and better FGA? No sh!t sherlock. :applause:

I'm curious tho, why the great KAJ couldn't beat those opponents even with HCA in the 70s? He faced some <50 win teams and lost, what's the deal? :confusedshrug:

[dc_chilling]

Better numbers? You mean more rebounds and blocks and better FGA? No sh!t sherlock. :applause:

I'm curious tho, why the great KAJ couldn't beat those opponents even with HCA in the 70s? He faced some <50 win teams and lost, what's the deal? :confusedshrug:

Why couldn't Jordan win more than one game in the first round in the 5 seasons he played without Pippen?

What he meant was that there is no clear GOAT. People have their own opinions on who it is. KAJ has as much of a claim to the title as Jordan by any measurement. MJ is still the GOAT to me, but I can see an argument for KAJ.

Hell, by the time it is all said and done, I wouldn't be surprised if Lebron has a serious argument for the throne.

[ThePhantomCreep]

bbbut jordan is the goat and its not close!! LMAO

jordan is lucky he never got to see this spurs team.....or lebron for that matter

Yes, I'm sure after countless wars with peak/prime Isiah, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Drexler, Magic, etc. the sight of 38-year old Duncan and his merry band of role-players would reduce Jordan to tears.

LeBron? If Dirk could bitch him out, what do you think Jordan would do?

[Asukal]

Why couldn't Jordan win more than one game in the first round in the 5 seasons he played without Pippen?

What he meant was that there is no clear GOAT. People have their own opinions on who it is. KAJ has as much of a claim to the title as Jordan by any measurement. MJ is still the GOAT to me, but I can see an argument for KAJ.

Hell, by the time it is all said and done, I wouldn't be surprised if Lebron has a serious argument for the throne.

LOL! Lebron? :oldlol: Maybe top 5 or top 10. GOAT? No. :no:

And roundballrock always goes out of his way to discredit Jordan in his posts. Comparing center stats to a guard and saying he has better stats? :oldlol::facepalm

[hahaitme]

He's pretty good but he never 8peated.

I think if you slot Kobe into Jordans position with the 90's rules and his supporting cast he probably would've had similar success.

[hawke812]

Become??? Having Pippen win his championships in the most watered down era of professional basketball, yes he is overrated.

[knicksman]

at the end of the day, stats are for losers. But im not surprised its the standards of bran stans. Betas root for betas. The most important thing is whether those stats result to rings or else wilt would be the GOAT. These luck BS is for losers. Lebron has proven its not about teammates. He has the most stacked team of all time now yet still couldnt deliver more than kobe. If youre born loser, youre born loser. Jordan 6 rings as the man. KAJ 2 rings as the man. Even 6 year old idiots can do the math.

[jstern]

As somebody who has always said that championships don't matter in determining how great a player is (though the context of how they won the championship does hold a lot of weight). And as somebody who said that if you replaced Lebron with Jordan last night Spurs would still had won. I think Jordan is becoming underrated. Because to me it's not about the basketball skills. It's more about his mind, mentality that impresses me. People who never watch Jordan play want to compare current superstars in terms of stats, and while Jordan's stats are better in general, that doesn't really due justice to his mind. So because of that I feel he's underrated. It's just something that's not going to be good to judge as the years pass by and those who didn't witness his era as it unfolded will really understand.

It's always going to be a simplistic argument of 6 > 5, 28ppg, vs 29ppg, not really understand the player's game, and in Jordan's case his mind.


I completely agree. I am not arguing that he isn't the GOAT. MJ was a monster and I idolized him growing up.

That doesn't change the fact that he has become a mythological figure. I was just sick of reading dumb shit like "Jordan would drop 60 a game in today's NBA". It is just moronic. Watch Wade at the peak of his powers in 09 and tell me Jordan was 30 ppg better. Or watch Kobe when he was at the peak of his powers in 06 and tell me Jordan was 25 ppg better. :facepalm

I've heard people say 40, I've heard Phil Jackson say 45, but damn, you're claiming 60 ppg. That's more than a bit of exaggeration.

[deja vu]

Become??? Having Pippen win his championships in the most watered down era of professional basketball, yes he is overrated.
There is no watered down era. There is a weak era though where that guy in your avatar won only 2 titles. :roll:

[NumberSix]

Michael Jordan is the GOAT of 1 specific period of time. There's no way of saying the GOAT of 1 period if GOATier than a GOAT from another period.

[Hey Yo]

Michael Jordan is the GOAT of 1 specific period of time. There's no way of saying the GOAT of 1 period if GOATier than a GOAT from another period.
but ...but....On the base of the statue of Jordan at the United Center in Chicago, these words are inscribed:

The best there ever was
The best there ever will be

He had no flaws and was perfect!!!!

[dreamwarrior]

Well the knock on him early in his career was that he couldn't win a ring. People looked at his 30ppg as pointless without being able to win a ring. But of course his team wasn't that great either. He didn't change his game when Pippen came along. Of course one guy is not enough to win a ring. The Bulls didn't win over 50 games until 1990 when they reached the ECF. For the 1st 3peat they won 61, 67, 57. For the 2nd 3beat they won 72, 69, 62. The upside is that when they had the best team in the league they didn't underperform in the playoffs. The Heat aren't the best team this year and the Spurs weren't the best team last year.

[andgar923]

His game was mythological while he was playing also
There was always tons of hype and expectation. The shit that was expected of him was indeed mythological.

And the reason he's remembered in such mythological proportions is because he usually surpassed all of the expectations and surpassed the hype.

It's not shit we make up.

It's shit that actually happened. I think some people have a hard time believing some stuff.

[Straight_Ballin]

If you were to young to see Jordan in his prime don't worry about what the fvck he was or wasn't useless you're going to get your notepad out and listen to your dad and elders that DID watch him play as you take notes.

[atljonesbro]

If you were to young to see Jordan in his prime don't worry about what the fvck he was or wasn't useless you're going to get your notepad out and listen to your dad and elders that DID watch him play as you take notes.
I know a ton of people who watch basketball now and still literally have no more than ESPN tier knowledge. Should people 20 years from now blindly listen to them preach the tales of LeBron? Just because someone may have watched a player doesn't mean they're knowledgeable.

[GimmeThat]

The myth of MJ gets heightened whenever Kobe or Lebron get brought up especially. To discredit Kobe it was easy, just turn to the stats. For Lebron, the stats argument doesn't work as well. Rather, it has become an exercise of measuring things that can't be measured. Stupid shit like, "MJ would have never came out of a game with cramps" or "MJ's mental toughness would have forced him to overcome any team in any game".


because being ranked #1 isn't enough for some protective stans. they want to artificially talk up a huge difference between the #1 and #2. Just so they feel safe and comfortable about their idol "being #1".

when it was quite clear that the #1's has always been close to their #2's.

[dc_chilling]

If you were to young to see Jordan in his prime don't worry about what the fvck he was or wasn't useless you're going to get your notepad out and listen to your dad and elders that DID watch him play as you take notes.

You old heads are hilarious.

The younger generation doesn't need to ask our parents about players you watched. We can watch them ourselves. There is this thing called Youtube, where get this, you can watch entire games/highlights of past greats. Amazing right?

So since you watched a player on some crappy old tv set in the 80's, it is somehow better than us watching it today? Unlike you at the time, we can judge this stuff based on the 30+ years of basketball that came after it. Plus we aren't relying on faulty memories from 30 years ago, we watch this shit all the time.

I can understand those who watched the NBA in the 60's telling the younger generation we don't understand about a particular legend because there isn't a lot of footage from that era in the NBA. But Jordan, come on son. You sound like a fool.:banghead:

[Dengness9]

Look at how much the Heat have accomplished the last 4 years in a absolutely terrible conference, but none the less have a chance at a 3 peat and look to be coming up short......its that hard to win 3 in a row...


MJ and the Bulls did it twice.....6 for 6 in 8 years is not a MYTH. Imagine if Jordan didn't leave the game for almost 2 years and had a 7th or 8th title, you insecure 16 year olds would really lose your shit.

Try and hate on the GOAT but you will lose.

[livinglegend]

Look at how much the Heat have accomplished the last 4 years in a absolutely terrible conference, but none the less have a chance at a 3 peat and look to be coming up short......its that hard to win 3 in a row...


MJ and the Bulls did it twice.....6 for 6 in 8 years is not a MYTH. Imagine if Jordan didn't leave the game for almost 2 years and had a 7th or 8th title, you insecure 16 year olds would really lose your shit.

Try and hate on the GOAT but you will lose.

8 peat

[KOBE143]

Jordan became overrated when people compare him to Kobe..

[TheMan]

Ok, how bout if we do this so everyone is happy...

Let's call these the GOATers during a specific time period so every stan is happy.

Late 50's to mid 60s Bill Russell
Mid 60s to late 60s Wilt Chamberlain
Late 60's to early 70s Jerry West and Oscar Robertson
Mid 70s to late 70s is KAJ's
Late 70s to early 80s goes to Moses Malone
Mid 80s is Larry's
Late 80s to 90 is Magic's
Early 90s to mid 90s MJ
Mid 90s is Hakeem's turn
Late 90s MJ's again
Early 2000s is Shaq
Mid 2000s Tim Duncan
2006-2009 Kobe Bryant
2010-current LeBron James

That pretty much covers all the GOATs

Thank me later.

Now y'all can argue who dominated their time period more :oldlol:

[played0ut]

Every player is overrated by someone.


Just have fun discussing it.

[Soundwave]

Ok, how bout if we do this so everyone is happy...

Let's call these the GOATers during a specific time period so every stan is happy.

Late 50's to mid 60s Bill Russell
Mid 60s to late 60s Wilt Chamberlain
Late 60's to early 70s Jerry West and Oscar Robertson
Mid 70s to late 70s is KAJ's
Late 70s to early 80s goes to Moses Malone
Mid 80s is Larry's
Late 80s to 90 is Magic's
Early 90s to mid 90s MJ
Mid 90s is Hakeem's turn
Late 90s MJ's again
Early 2000s is Shaq
Mid 2000s Tim Duncan
2006-2009 Kobe Bryant
2010-current LeBron James

That pretty much covers all the GOATs

Thank me later.

Now y'all can argue who dominated their time period more :oldlol:

Lets not even have an NBA Finals, everyone should get a ribbon for participating, that way there's no hurt feelings on either side. :lol

[OmniStrife]

Jordan is overrated if you look at him as the one true only perfect specimen to play the game.

He's not untouchable, and I believe we'll see a player who'll be even better and more accomplished than MJ at this game.

Still, no one hasn't come close to his greatness to this day.
He's the undisputed GOAT to me as of now.

But in the future, who knows?

[bdreason]

He's overrated like all "superstars" are overrated.

[deja vu]

He's overrated like all "superstars" are overrated.
This. You never see a superstar being called underrated.

[step_back]

Prime Kareem versus Prime Jordan in the regular season

KAJ 28/14/5/4/1 on 56%
MJ 33/6/6/1/3 on 52%


KAJ took 21 FGA and 7 FTA while MJ took 24 FGA and 9 FTA.

Prime Kareem versus Prime Jordan in the playoffs

KAJ 30/16/4/3/1 on 54%
MJ 35/7/6/1/2 on 50%

MJ took 25 FGA and 10 FTA while the respective figures for KAJ were 23.5 and 7 FTA.

I used 1970-1980 for prime KAJ and 1987-1993 for prime MJ.

Of course his rebounding and FG% is going to be higher. He's a center. I still don't see how this is proving your point though.

[Rose'sACL]

Of course his rebounding and FG% is going to be higher. He's a center. I still don't see how this is proving your point though.
it is not like jordan made up for that rebounding number by being a great 3 point shooter.
all he is trying to point out is that Jordan is not a God. Some players are very close to him although i consider him the GOAT. Everyone knows that kobe/lebron stans overrate them but no one is ready to accept that posters like "the man" or "dondadda" overrate jordan too.

[BoutPractice]

"Overrated" is often what you call people who are great at something.

[sdot_thadon]

It's pretty awkward to see guys who supposedly grew up watching Mj tell guys you weren't old enough to watch him play, or you just started watching basketball when the same thing applies to most of them as well. Most of them just started watching during Mj's career giving them the same bias they accuse younger fans of. I grew up watching Mj and honestly I didn't see much of Magic's or Bird's career. Somehow these guys who were too young to watch Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, etc. feel like the authority on historical value even though they've never seen half of the top 10 play.......... :wtf:

[jstern]

You old heads are hilarious.

The younger generation doesn't need to ask our parents about players you watched. We can watch them ourselves. There is this thing called Youtube, where get this, you can watch entire games/highlights of past greats. Amazing right?

So since you watched a player on some crappy old tv set in the 80's, it is somehow better than us watching it today? Unlike you at the time, we can judge this stuff based on the 30+ years of basketball that came after it. Plus we aren't relying on faulty memories from 30 years ago, we watch this shit all the time.

I can understand those who watched the NBA in the 60's telling the younger generation we don't understand about a particular legend because there isn't a lot of footage from that era in the NBA. But Jordan, come on son. You sound like a fool.:banghead:

That's not true. There is a huge difference in watching a game on YouTube, or especially watching a player's highlight video on YouTube than actually going through a season and all the pressures involved, not knowing the outcome. It's the reason why I don't judge players that came before my time.

If you're thinking that you know anything about a player just because you watched their highlight videos, which pretty much makes all superstars look equal, or because you watched some random game on YouTube, in a casual manner, with none of the emotions and drama of the unknown, then I wouldn't trust your opinion about anything.

Yes, a reasonable person following the NBA in the 80s, watching Jordan and actually being familiar with the teams and competition, and the daily games, season after season if going to know a lot more about him than you watching YouTube videos.

I mean it's the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread.

Not only that, but the decades of watching basketball will just expose a person to so many more situations. That alone is so much more than a kid who's been watching for 5 years and acts as if the latest game winner is one the greatest moments in the NBA because it's so fresh and new to them.

[kshutts1]

1) Jordan is a top 8 player of all time, and the best SG ever.
2) Jordan is the most overrated player of all time.

Both of those are true. When people get legit mad if anyone but Jordan is crowned the GOAT, even though there are so so many era and positional differences to account for... yes, he's overrated.

I'm not convinced that Jordan is head-and-shoulders better than any of the following:
Bird, Magic, Oscar, Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Kareem

[played0ut]

1) Jordan is a top 8 player of all time, and the best SG ever.
2) Jordan is the most overrated player of all time.

Both of those are true. When people get legit mad if anyone but Jordan is crowned the GOAT, even though there are so so many era and positional differences to account for... yes, he's overrated.

I'm not convinced that Jordan is head-and-shoulders better than any of the following:
Bird, Magic, Oscar, Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Kareem

By accolades, skills, or combination of both?

Bird and Magic has sung his praises, at least. More competitive than either of them (Magic admitted it, and other contemporaries that know and have played with them both, like Barkley).

"God dressed as Michael Jordan" - Bird

"There's Michael Jordan and then there's the rest of us" - Magic



I'm not convinced he had higher BBIQ than Bird/Magic/Russell, or was a better leader, but his game was more complete than theirs (both ends of the court) and he has the hardware too.

[Micku]

MJ was a beast and played at a super high level. Only a few players in NBA history had reach around that level imo, but fewer had the same amount of success.

I do think ppl overrate him a little bit, but I guess it comes with the territory of how successful he was while playing like he was one, if not the best player ever. I do think ppl tend to overrate retired players anyway. Especially if you grew up watching the player. There could be some bias there. It goes back to Oscar, Dr. J, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, and etc.

[GimmeThat]

yea, if the first thing you want to tell someone whose never heard/watched/seen basketball is Michael Jordan, instead of any player that is currently playing in the league.

[veilside23]

the one who got swept in the finals is overrated

[step_back]

it is not like jordan made up for that rebounding number by being a great 3 point shooter.
all he is trying to point out is that Jordan is not a God. Some players are very close to him although i consider him the GOAT. Everyone knows that kobe/lebron stans overrate them but no one is ready to accept that posters like "the man" or "dondadda" overrate jordan too.

I'm not calling him a God but the title of the thread is "Has Jordan become overrated". I don't see how people view him as overrated, his personal and team accomplishments are incredible.

[97 bulls]

I'm not calling him a God but the title of the thread is "Has Jordan become overrated". I don't see how people view him as overrated, his personal and team accomplishments are incredible.
Because far too often, Jordan supporters try to credit Jordan with all the accomplishments his teams have made solely.

[sdot_thadon]

That's not true. There is a huge difference in watching a game on YouTube, or especially watching a player's highlight video on YouTube than actually going through a season and all the pressures involved, not knowing the outcome. It's the reason why I don't judge players that came before my time.

If you're thinking that you know anything about a player just because you watched their highlight videos, which pretty much makes all superstars look equal, or because you watched some random game on YouTube, in a casual manner, with none of the emotions and drama of the unknown, then I wouldn't trust your opinion about anything.

Yes, a reasonable person following the NBA in the 80s, watching Jordan and actually being familiar with the teams and competition, and the daily games, season after season if going to know a lot more about him than you watching YouTube videos.

I mean it's the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread.

Not only that, but the decades of watching basketball will just expose a person to so many more situations. That alone is so much more than a kid who's been watching for 5 years and acts as if the latest game winner is one the greatest moments in the NBA because it's so fresh and new to them.
Exactly. This is precisely why he is overrated. These guys the topic refer to have at best youtube knowledge of those who came before Mj. How can anyone be so certain that it's "Mj and it's not even close"?

[veilside23]

Exactly. This is precisely why he is overrated. These guys the topic refer to have at best youtube knowledge of those who came before Mj. How can anyone be so certain that it's "Mj and it's not even close"?


how old are you kid? how can it be close if MJ didnt lose in the finals and your boy lost how many times already? I dont care if he did take the cavs to the finals with scrubs allen iverson did that too and he won 2 games... but your boy got swept... guess what the same guy who is way past his prime ...

michael jordan also elevated his game when it counts the most .. just because lebron's shooting FG is ridiculous means he is doing a great job. when you all claim he makes his team better how come he had better assists numbers when he was in cleveland because dwade and bosh allen and chalmers are scrubs?

in all honesty people say that jordan had rodman and cartwright ...

please tell me if a rodman led team can get to the playoffs with what bosh had when he was with the raptors...

and people here actually put dwade over pippen...

[sdot_thadon]

how old are you kid? how can it be close if MJ didnt lose in the finals and your boy lost how many times already? I dont care if he did take the cavs to the finals with scrubs allen iverson did that too and he won 2 games... but your boy got swept... guess what the same guy who is way past his prime ...

michael jordan also elevated his game when it counts the most .. just because lebron's shooting FG is ridiculous means he is doing a great job. when you all claim he makes his team better how come he had better assists numbers when he was in cleveland because dwade and bosh allen and chalmers are scrubs?

in all honesty people say that jordan had rodman and cartwright ...

please tell me if a rodman led team can get to the playoffs with what bosh had when he was with the raptors...

and people here actually put dwade over pippen...
Assumptions assumptions all around. Slow your roll man, take that bass out your voice.:facepalm Nowhere near a kid just using common sense. I grew up watching Mj, HE is my boy. I'm not so blinded by nostalgia to say he's untouchable because it's idiotic.

[veilside23]

Assumptions assumptions all around. Slow your roll man, take that bass out your voice.:facepalm Nowhere near a kid just using common sense. I grew up watching Mj, HE is my boy. I'm not so blinded by nostalgia to say he's untouchable because it's idiotic.


am not even shouting :D ... Goat is goat... he can be the basis of comparison but to say someone is actually better that's idiotic .. have at least a valid reason aside from Fg%

[sdot_thadon]

am not even shouting :D ... Goat is goat... he can be the basis of comparison but to say someone is actually better that's idiotic .. have at least a valid reason aside from Fg%
I haven't typed the word lebron once, Mj is my goat if you must know. You reek of insecurity, if your going to speak with me address my point or keep it moving buddy. I'm not debating goat in this thread. I'm on the topic, you need to get there. I'll wait.....

[veilside23]

I haven't typed the word lebron once, Mj is my goat if you must know. You reek of insecurity, if your going to speak with me address my point or keep it moving buddy. I'm not debating goat in this thread. I'm on the topic, you need to get there. I'll wait.....


ok fine MJ is not overrated... happy now ?