How many playoff wins for kobe with boobie gibson and donyell marshall?

[Akrazotile]

I think the overwhelming evidence points to the fact that he would have won NO playoff series with such a weak cast, no matter how many attempts he's given.

He's not a guy that can carry a team. He needs a stacked team to carry him, because his ballhogging iso heroball obsession doesn't translate into meaningful basketball, as evidenced by his three straight years in his prime with nothing to show for being the man. He needs a smart and efficient basketball team doing winning things around him, so he can impress all the school children with his jabpstep turnaround contested fadeaway from 20 feet that goes in 44% of the time, and still be dragged to the championship shooting 6/24 in an elimination game :facepalm .

[Boarder Patrol]

Wade, Bosh, Allen > Odom, bench big Bynum, Gasol

[dubeta]

Only thing they're winning is the draft lottery

[MP.Trey]

About as many as LeBron would have with Smush and Kwame, honestly. And I think LeBron's better in their respective primes, just slightly.

[ThePhantomCreep]

The Cavs beat ONE 50-win team during LeBron's tenure in Cleveland, a 53-win team.

Kobe could easily manage that.

[dubeta]

The Cavs beat ONE 50-win team during LeBron's tenure in Cleveland, a 53-win team.

Kobe could easily manage that.

Why couldnt Kobe do that from 2005-2007?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why couldnt Kobe do that from 2005-2007?

The Cavs were a top 5 defense. Kobe on any top 5 D = championship contender.

[Droid101]

Uh, those Cavs teams were murderous defensively and had great outside shooting. How do you think they won 60 plus games?

[dubeta]

The Cavs were a top 5 defense. Kobe on any top 5 D = championship contender.

Maybe cause Kobe brings down his team's defense

[ThePhantomCreep]

Why couldnt Kobe do that from 2005-2007?

Crappier team, stronger conference.

Those Suns teams would trounce the Cavs of that era. Kobe didn't have the luxury of facing The Wizards every damn year.

[Akrazotile]

Uh, those Cavs teams were murderous defensively and had great outside shooting. How do you think they won 60 plus games?


By not having Kobe.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Eastern Conference and Western Conference are two different things.

[ArbitraryWater]

Now all of the sudden those Cavs teams were defensive MONSTERS with GODLIKE outside shooting..... riiiiiiiiiiight

[Black and White]

Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Luke Walton

[PsychoBe]

if only kobe had the luxury of entering the first round in the east against the gilbert arenas wizards :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Artillery]

Kobe couldn't even make it out of the first round against Steve Nash with a much better coach/team than the '07 Cavs.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Maybe cause Kobe brings down his team's defense

You mean in between the countless all defensive team awards and rings?:oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Now all of the sudden those Cavs teams were defensive MONSTERS with GODLIKE outside shooting..... riiiiiiiiiiight

The 09 Cavs were 3rd in defensive efficiency and 2nd in 3 pt % in the league.

:biggums:

[Droid101]

The 09 Cavs were 3rd in defensive efficiency and 2nd in 3 pt % in the league.

:biggums:
Things like "facts" and "reason" don't work with these morons.

[qrich]

Against the same competition? He'd take a series most likely and possibly two.

Wouldn't sniff the finals, however.

[NumberSix]

What makes you think he would make the playoffs?

[Artillery]

You mean in between the countless all defensive team awards and rings?:oldlol:

Defensive RAPM says Kobe's been a shitty defender for most of his career. Impact stats don't lie.

[Artillery]

What makes you think he would make the playoffs?

Yup. Kobe had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom and he couldn't even make the playoffs in 2005. Those two are much better than anyone Lebron had on the '07 Cavs. We've already seen Kobe fail spectacularly with Mike Brown and a stacked roster. Give him Mike Brown and Gibson and I doubt he makes the post-season.

[SamuraiSWISH]

For something comparable. 2006, and 2007 Kobe on say the Bulls who were built similar to the Cavaliers:

G - Hinrich
G - Kobe
F - Deng
F - Nocioni
C - Ben Wallace

That team could get to the Finals just as the 2007 Cavs did, fairly certain they put up a better fight, and at least win a game v.s. the Spurs in the NBA Finals. That eastern conference was ass.

[ThePhantomCreep]

What makes you think he would make the playoffs?

The Eastern Conference was, and is, a pile of complete shit.


Kobe couldn't even make it out of the first round against Steve Nash with a much better coach/team than the '07 Cavs.

The 2007 Suns won 61 games and would have crushed the Cavs in the Finals.

Your boy only got there because he played in conference where the #1 seed won 53 games, facing .500 teams in rounds one AND two.

The Lakers, with their crappy, bang-up roster and 42-win record, would have had HCA against the Wizards and Nets. It's unbelievable how awful the East was.

[lefthook00]

In the Western Conference at that time? When the difference between the 1 seed and 8 seed was only a few games? Probably the same amount of games he won with Smush Parker and Brian Cook.

In the Eastern Conference at that time? When the 4 through 8 seeds had less than a .500 record? A lot more.

The Eastern conference at that time was the worst it has been in the history of the NBA.

[Artillery]

For something comparable. 2006, and 2007 Kobe on say the Bulls who were built similar to the Cavaliers:

G - Hinrich
G - Kobe
F - Deng
F - Nocioni
C - Ben Wallace

That team could get to the Finals just as the 2007 Cavs did, fairly certain they put up a better fight, and at least win a game v.s. the Spurs in the NBA Finals. That eastern conference was ass.

2006/2007 Kobe put up empty stats on bad teams. Pair him up with those losers from the Bulls and they get swept by SA. Hell, they wouldn't even make the Finals. Indiana takes 'em out in five or six.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Defensive RAPM says Kobe's been a shitty defender for most of his career. Impact stats don't lie.

What was Kobe's RAPM relative to other SGs?:rolleyes:

[chazzy]

06-08 Kobe> 06-08 Lebron. Bron played in a bad conference with good defensive support before he was even a good defender.

[dubeta]

For something comparable. 2006, and 2007 Kobe on say the Bulls who were built similar to the Cavaliers:

G - Hinrich
G - Kobe
F - Deng
F - Nocioni
C - Ben Wallace

That team could get to the Finals just as the 2007 Cavs did, fairly certain they put up a better fight, and at least win a game v.s. the Spurs in the NBA Finals. That eastern conference was ass.

Deng a legit 15+ ppg scorer and near prime Ben Wallace??! :roll:

[Artillery]

The Eastern Conference was, and is, a pile of complete shit.

The 2007 Suns won 61 games and would have crushed the Cavs in the Finals.

Your boy only got there because he played in conference where the #1 seed won 53 games, facing .500 teams in rounds one AND two.

The Lakers, with their crappy, bang-up roster and 42-win record, would have had HCA against the Wizards and Nets. It's unbelievable how awful the East was.

Amare-less Suns beat them in 2006. Kobe quit in game 7. Lost to Steve Nash. Twice. In his prime. Needed Phil Jackson and the best frontcourt in the NBA (Pau, Bynum, Odom, Artest) to finally beat a Steve Nash team in 2010. Hell, Kobe struggled to beat a Yao-less Rockets team in 2009 in seven games with a stacked roster.

[chazzy]

Amare-less Suns beat them in 2006. Kobe quit in game 7. Lost to Steve Nash. Twice. In his prime. Needed Phil Jackson and a stacked roster(Pau, Bynum, Artest) to finally beat a Steve Nash team in 2010. Hell, Kobe needed a stacked roster just to beat a Yao-less Rockets team in 2009 in seven games.
Your Spurs got swept by that '10 Suns team and could've easily lost to them in 07

[SamuraiSWISH]

Deng a legit 15+ ppg scorer and near prime Ben Wallace??! :roll:
Ben Wallace at that point was easily past his prime. For a few seasons actually. And um, Larry Hughes on the 2007 Cavaliers was a 15+ ppg caliber scorer. Just like Deng. Not to mention at the time Drew Gooden's offensive production would be better than Nocioni, and Big Z was putting up 12 ppg as well.

[ThePhantomCreep]

2006/2007 Kobe put up empty stats on bad teams. Pair him up with those losers from the Bulls and they get swept by SA. Hell, they wouldn't even make the Finals. Indiana takes 'em out in five or six.

Indiana was a .500 team in 2006 and missed the playoffs in 2007. I know you're trying to invoke images of the one decent team the Heat have faced over the last few years, but it's not working.

[Akrazotile]

What was Kobe's RAPM relative to other SGs?:rolleyes:


I dont know what that stat is but if it measures rape Im sure Kobe was the league leader.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Amare-less Suns beat them in 2006. Kobe quit in game 7. Lost to Steve Nash. Twice. In his prime. Needed Phil Jackson and the best frontcourt in the NBA (Pau, Bynum, Odom, Artest) to finally beat a Steve Nash team in 2010. Hell, Kobe struggled to beat a Yao-less Rockets team in 2009 in seven games with a stacked roster.

LeBron fans talking about stacked rosters, hilarious. Your boy only has rings because he colluded with other franchise players in his prime.

Google Bynum's postseason averages from 2008-2010. They incredibly impressive.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I dont know what that stat is but if it measures rape Im sure Kobe was the league leader.

Good point. Everyone really does sleep on the fact that Kobe had to play under the umbrella of false rape allegations due to a racist culture.

[Artillery]

Your Spurs got swept by that '10 Suns team and could've easily lost to them in 07

Spurs were 5-1 against Steve Nash teams. Nash finally beat them in 2010 after six tries. Kobe still has a losing record against Nash and D'Antoni.

[chazzy]

Spurs were 5-1 against Steve Nash teams. Nash finally beat them in 2010 after six tries. Kobe still has a losing record against Nash and D'Antoni.
Yup, the Suns were the better team. Put up some of the best offensive stats ever

[ThePhantomCreep]

Spurs were 5-1 against Steve Nash teams. Nash finally beat them in 2010 after six tries. Kobe still has a losing record against Nash and D'Antoni.

What's the point of all this? The 2005-2008 Suns would stomp the 2005-2008 Cavaliers in a playoff series.

Hell, if you put the 2008 Cavs in the West, they miss the playoffs with their record. Kobe at one point had his team in first place of that brutal conference with just Bynum.

[Hey Yo]

Ben Wallace at that point was easily past his prime. For a few seasons actually. And um, Larry Hughes on the 2007 Cavaliers was a 15+ ppg caliber scorer. Just like Deng. Not to mention at the time Drew Gooden's offensive production would be better than Nocioni, and Big Z was putting up 12 ppg as well.
He was awful that year for the Cavs in those playoffs.

18games 35.5MPG 11pts shooting just under 35% and 35% from 3pt land.

[dubeta]

He was awful that year for the Cavs in those playoffs.

18games 35.5MPG 11pts shooting just under 35% and 35% from 3pt land.

This.

Add Lebron to any other playoff team in the East and they instantly win championship

[Rocketswin2013]

The Cavs were a top 5 defense. Kobe on any top 5 D = championship contender.
Nothing to do with LeBron James....

[chazzy]

This.

Add Lebron to any other playoff team in the East and they instantly win championship
He would suddenly be able play well against the '07 Spurs with any other team? People don't realize that Lebron really wasn't that good that year compared to his other seasons.

Nothing to do with LeBron James....
Obviously plays a role, but he wasn't a good to great defender until 08 or so. Already forgetting this stuff? He wasn't always lauded for his defense.

[ThePhantomCreep]

This.

Add Lebron to any other playoff team in the East and they instantly win championship

Considering that a better version of LeBron, on a stacked roster, only guarantees you a title 50% of the time (God bless Ray Allen), I'm going to have to call bullshit on this claim.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Nothing to do with LeBron James....

Lebron admitted he didn't play defense back then. He made sure everyone knew years later that he was trying on defense now. You don't remember when he started begging for all defensive team awards???

[Rocketswin2013]

Lebron admitted he didn't play defense back then. He made sure everyone knew years later that he was trying on defense now. You don't remember when he started begging for all defensive team awards???
When? And LeBron led that Cavs team in DWS from 08-10

[Yao Ming's Foot]

When? And LeBron led that Cavs team in DWS from 08-10

No when he made the finals and had "no help"... Ilguaskas and Sideshow Bob both had lower defensive ratings.

[Hey Yo]

Considering that a better version of LeBron, on a stacked roster, only guarantees you a title 50% of the time (God bless Ray Allen), I'm going to have to call bullshit on this claim.
Stacked names, but not stacked production.

BIG difference

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Stacked names, but not stacked production.

BIG difference

Is that the mantra that has replaced "makes his teammates better" :oldlol:

[Rocketswin2013]

No when he made the finals and had "no help"... Ilguaskas and Sideshow Bob both had lower defensive ratings.
On significantly less minutes.

[ThePhantomCreep]

On significantly less minutes.

You have to twist yourself into quite a pretzel to make those advanced stats work for you, huh?

LeBron was not noted for his defense in 2007. Get over it.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

On significantly less minutes.

There is no shame in being the 7th most effective defender for the 07 Cavs.

[Artillery]

What was Kobe's RAPM relative to other SGs?:rolleyes:

Tried looking up every notable wing player. Kobe's VERY low on the list. 14 year Defensive RAPM. Data from 2000 to 2014.

+4.0 - Tony Allen
+3.4 - Artest
+3.3 - Eddie Jones
+3.1 - Bowen
+3.1 - Doug Christie
+3.0 - Deng
+2.8 - Battier
+2.8 - Iguodala
+2.2 - Lebron
+2.2 - Pierce
+1.9 - Ariza
+1.7 - Manu
+1.4 - Carter
+0.5 - TMac
+0.4 - Wade
-0.5 - Rip Hamilton
-0.5 - Reggie Miller
-0.7 - Brandon Roy
-0.8 - Stackhouse
-0.8 - Iverson
-0.9 - Kobe
-1.0 - Harden
-1.0 - Arenas
-1.1 - Hughes
-1.2 - Durant
-1.6 - Ray Allen
-2.1 - Jason Terry

Confirms that Kobe's the most overrated defender in NBA history.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Tried looking up every notable wing player. Kobe's VERY low on the list. 14 year Defensive RAPM. Data from 2000 to 2014.

+4.0 - Tony Allen
+3.4 - Artest
+3.3 - Eddie Jones
+3.1 - Bowen
+3.1 - Doug Christie
+3.0 - Deng
+2.8 - Battier
+2.8 - Iguodala
+2.2 - Lebron
+2.2 - Pierce
+1.9 - Ariza
+1.7 - Manu
+1.4 - Carter
+0.5 - TMac
+0.4 - Wade
-0.5 - Rip Hamilton
-0.5 - Reggie Miller
-0.7 - Brandon Roy
-0.8 - Stackhouse
-0.8 - Iverson
-0.9 - Kobe
-1.0 - Harden
-1.0 - Arenas
-1.1 - Hughes
-1.2 - Durant
-1.6 - Ray Allen
-2.1 - Jason Terry

Do you know the difference between a SF and a SG? Kobe won multiple awards as a guard not a forward. :oldlol:

[blood yes]

Im not a fan of either player, and I think both players are excellent.

However, I dont think people remember how good LeBron was in Cleveland. In fact, i honestly think LeBron was BETTER in cleveland,than in miami.

No way Kobe dominates like LeBron did with the Cavs, ESPECIALLY in 2007. That game 5 performance by LeBron against the Pistons, is IMO, the 3rd best playoff performance of all time. I remember watching it live on TV, and I think the whole house was in shock, because we were avid pistons fans. It isn't an understatement to say that LeBron single handedly took down the Pistons mini-dynasty.

OFC,im sure Kobe would have been able to score 60+ with that cavs team just like he did with his lakers from 2005-2007, but Kobe's lack of a signature playoff game does not make me impressed. This is because LeBron already has 2 signature playoff games (game 6 2012 and game 5 2007)

OFC, both are great players, but to think Kobe would have taken that 2007 squad to the finals is a joke, tbh.

[Rocketswin2013]

LeBron had a DRTG of 100 in 2007. Which for a wing player is outstanding..The best on the team was 98...LeBron played at least 1000 more minutes than anybody else that had a sub 100 DRTG...Led the DWS and it wasn't close...You get the picture..

[Rocketswin2013]

Do you know the difference between a SF and a SG? Kobe won multiple awards as a guard not a forward. :oldlol:
Manu, Carter and Wade in front. :lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Manu, Carter and Wade in front. :lol

So in other words Kobe is within any reasonable standard of error of the most "impactful" guard defenders of his era??

[Artillery]

Do you know the difference between a SF and a SG? Kobe won multiple awards as a guard not a forward. :oldlol:

Some of these guys can qualify as either SGs or SFs. I didn't bother to make the distinction. The fact that you want to justify Kobe's all-defensive selections by making the argument that "there weren't any other good alternatives at SG" is awful. He's been a shitty defender his entire career. He sometimes plays man-defense, sometimes roams aimlessly. Doesn't do either well. One of the worst help defenders I've ever seen. I remember Bruce ****ing Bowen scoring 27 points on him in a playoff game. Bowen should NEVER score more than ten points on anybody.

[Artillery]

So in other words Kobe is within any reasonable standard of error of the most "impactful" guard defenders of his era??

Thank you for confirming that the SG position is the weakest in NBA history. It's basically just MJ. No one else is close to being elite.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Some of these guys can qualify as either SGs or SFs. I didn't bother to make the distinction. The fact that you want to justify Kobe's all-defensive selections by making the argument that "there weren't any other good alternatives at SG" is awful. He's been a shitty defender his entire career. He sometimes plays man-defense, sometimes roams aimlessly. Doesn't do either well. One of the worst help defenders I've ever seen. I remember Bruce ****ing Bowen scoring 27 points on him in a playoff game. Bowen should NEVER score more than ten points on anybody.

One whole game, huh? I'm sure Bowen was breaking Kobe off the dribble too for his points too.

Speaking of which, Kobe routinely torched Bowen and the Spurs in multiple series. How'd LeBron do against him in the 2007 Finals?

[Artillery]

One whole game, huh? I'm sure Bowen was breaking Kobe off the dribble too for his points too.

Speaking of which, Kobe routinely torched Bowen and the Spurs in multiple series. How'd LeBron do against him in the 2007 Finals?

When did Lebron play with prime Shaq? Did he have Phil Jackson(GOAT) as coach too?

[Artillery]

One whole game, huh? I'm sure Bowen was breaking Kobe off the dribble too for his points too.

Players have been torching Kobe for years now. I used Bowen as an example because someone as offensively inept as him should never score more than 27 points in a game. Here's what happens when a good offensive player is defended by Kobe:


http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/wizards/arenas_320_061217.jpg

[ThePhantomCreep]

When did Lebron play with prime Shaq? Did he have Phil Jackson(GOAT) as coach too?

Shaq wasn't even around in 2008. You have to overrate Gasol (and I'm sure you will) for you bullshit excuse to work.


Players have been torching Kobe for years now. I used Bowen as an example because someone as offensively inept as him should never score more than 27 points in a game. Here's what happens when a good offensive player is defended by Kobe:


http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/wizards/arenas_320_061217.jpg


I remember that game--the vast majority of those points came against someone else. Gilbert's a PG, remember?

[The-Legend-24]

The 09 Cavs were 3rd in defensive efficiency and 2nd in 3 pt % in the league.

:biggums:
Ether. :roll:

[Rocketswin2013]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_p7doCGYGM

0:25 Kobe with the Harden-type no contest and gets scored on.


0:47 no contest

Middle of the 3rd, Kobe starts guarding Arenas to stop the bleeding. First posession...

2:15 Kobe can't fight thru screen. Weak contest. J in face.

2:27: Kobe on his heels. J in his face

3:28: Kobe fouls him and gets J'd. And1.

3:58: Kobe backpedaling. Allows shot on pullup.

4:08: Kobe beat off the dribble so fast the D couldn't react. Layup.

4:15 Kobe with terrible off-ball D. Layup and And1 off Arenas cut.

4:47: Kobe flatout shook off Arenas' hesitation. Allows wide open 3 with no contest.

Kobe gave up at least 19 points to Arenas that night. He also had 5 fouls.

[ThePhantomCreep]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_p7doCGYGM

0:25 Kobe with the Harden-type no contest and gets scored on.


0:47 no contest

Middle of the 3rd, Kobe starts guarding Arenas to stop the bleeding. First posession...

2:15 Kobe can't fight thru screen. Weak contest. J in face.

2:27: Kobe on his heels. J in his face

3:28: Kobe fouls him and gets J'd. And1.

3:58: Kobe backpedaling. Allows shot on pullup.

4:08: Kobe beat off the dribble so fast the D couldn't react. Layup.

4:15 Kobe with terrible off-ball D. Layup and And1 off Arenas cut.

4:47: Kobe flatout shook off Arenas' hesitation. Allows wide open 3 with no contest.

Kobe gave up at least 19 points to Arenas that night. He also had 5 fouls.

So 41 points came against someone else?

You guys know Arenas averaged 28-29 in that era, yes? Someone like Ginobili would defend him for 5 seconds, turn him over to Bowen, then get a sparkling defensive RAPM (holy obscure factoids, batman) out of it.

[Artillery]

So 41 points came against someone else?

You guys know Arenas averaged 28-29 in that era, yes? Someone like Ginobili would defend him for 5 seconds, turn him over to Bowen, then get a sparkling defensive RAPM (holy obscure factoids, batman) out of it.

:oldlol: Pretending the Lakers don't hide Kobe on defense. Metta/Ariza ring a bell? Sad thing is, even with Kobe hiding on defense the scrubs still go off on him. Remember this?

http://nba247365.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/lin_kobe.jpg

Lin played the Heat a week later. Lebron shut him down.

[Artillery]

Shaq wasn't even around in 2008. You have to overrate Gasol (and I'm sure you will) for you bullshit excuse to work.

Lakers had homecourt and were a deeper team. Spurs role player were old as dirt and Ginobili was hobbled in the playoffs. From ESPN:

The injury hobbled Ginobili during the NBA playoffs, particularly during the Western Conference finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, when his signature explosiveness was visibly absent.

And they were gassed after playing a 7 game series against the Hornet without homecourt. Wasn't even an elite Spurs team according to SRS:

8.00 SRS - 2014 Spurs
8.35 SRS - 2007 Spurs

5.10 SRS - 2008 Spurs

Lebron played the best Spurs teams. Kobe played a group of old/injured Spurs teams.