Interesting comparison...

[plowking]

http://s26.postimg.org/xynxobacp/jordan_james.gif

I'm not saying anything about the stats, since some things are circumstantial, though it is interesting.

[To4]

Did Lebron win thou?

[russwest0]

6/6 > 2/5

[russwest0]

Did Lebron win thou?

:applause: Post their finals stats OP

[SAKOTXA]

You're comparing 33-36 year old post retirement MJ to prime LeBron who didn't even play as good as those stats suggest. Are you trolling right now?

[Nikola_]

Efficient but not dominant

[Lebronxrings]

wow jordans team must have been stacked! :eek:

[plowking]

:applause: Post their finals stats OP

From what I understand the numbers in brackets are highs and the ones that aren't are lows.

And to the other poster, no Lebron didn't win, but that is kind of the point of the thread.

[plowking]

You're comparing 33-36 year old post retirement MJ to prime LeBron who didn't even play as good as those stats suggest. Are you trolling right now?

In what way were Lebron's stats not as good as they suggest.

Were they as good as suggested in the first two games?

[russwest0]

In what way were Lebron's stats not as good as they suggest.

Were they as good as suggested in the first two games?

Check his plus/minus numbers.

Also in some games he did nothing while the game was close but statpadded when it was already over.

Plus his impact on defense was negative in this series, no doubt. His matchup was a role player and he got outplayed by him. Can't say the same for any other all time "great," though it's not fair to consider LeBron one of those yet.

[Warfan]

Now post jordans finals stats during the first 3peat :roll:


Even then...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNlNXtcYodc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEwEsdKrNcM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PACpoBL1HI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHyZ7AuG8-s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig0Ms3spYKw

>>>

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[Mr Feeny]

http://s26.postimg.org/xynxobacp/jordan_james.gif

I'm not saying anything about the stats, since some things are circumstantial, though it is interesting.

Why are we comparing a 33-35 year old who is facing handchecking against an in-his-prime 29 year old?

[edrick]

Check his plus/minus numbers.

Also in some games he did nothing while the game was close but statpadded when it was already over.

Plus his impact on defense was negative in this series, no doubt. His matchup was a role player and he got outplayed by him. Can't say the same for any other all time "great," though it's not fair to consider LeBron one of those yet.

So the game is over in the third quarter? STFU.

[plowking]

Now post jordans finals stats during the first 3peat :roll:


Even then...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNlNXtcYodc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEwEsdKrNcM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PACpoBL1HI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHyZ7AuG8-s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig0Ms3spYKw

>>>

:bowdown: :bowdown:

That's not what I am going for at all. I'm not trying to show who was better as a player. My point is Lebron played great, better than some players did when they won a championship. It's like trying to say that Chauncy Billups was actually better than Shaq when they won the finals.

Sometimes you play better, but your team isn't there to back you up.

[russwest0]

So the game is over in the third quarter? STFU.

When you play consistently lazy ass defense like the Heat were and are down by 20?

Yeah.

[edrick]

When you play consistently lazy ass defense like the Heat were?

Yeah.

You're a damn moron if you actually believe that he was stat padding in a third quarter.

[plowking]

Check his plus/minus numbers.

Also in some games he did nothing while the game was close but statpadded when it was already over.

Plus his impact on defense was negative in this series, no doubt. His matchup was a role player and he got outplayed by him. Can't say the same for any other all time "great," though it's not fair to consider LeBron one of those yet.

Bron guarded Leonard in games 1, 2 and 3 from what I can remember. He guarded Parker in last nights game. He shut him out of the game.

[deja vu]

LeEfficiency. :applause:

2/5 though. :oldlol:

[russwest0]

LeEfficiency. :applause:

2/5 though. :oldlol:

LeEfficentExceptWhenItMattersMost :bowdown:

[SAKOTXA]

In what way were Lebron's stats not as good as they suggest.

Were they as good as suggested in the first two games?
For one he was getting burnt defensively by Leonard, and secondly where was he all series in critical moments? I'm all for unselfish basketball, but superstars of Lebron's caliber are paid to stop those mini bursts that turn into 15-20 point leads with pure individual play. Not every team is as well balanced as SA from top to bottom. I didn't see that from him anywhere outside of game 2.

This one one of LeBron's worst playoff series of his career, he just looked way too passive and went down without a fight.

[SAKOTXA]

Also, i honestly think Miami's demise this year was the fact they were never challenged in the horrible Eastern conference. They were never ready for a team like SA, and honestly all Miami/Lebron fans should be extremely happy that they won last year or else this whole big 3 experiment would have been a failure.

[DMV2]

Bron guarded Leonard in games 1, 2 and 3 from what I can remember. He guarded Parker in last nights game. He shut him out of the game.
LeBron was straight up trash in Game 3 defensively. KL and Green torched him.

And why you even bringing up one season of LeBron at age 29 vs a 33-35 year-old Jordan who 3-peated? Just take your loss like a man.

[plowking]

For one he was getting burnt defensively by Leonard, and secondly where was he all series in critical moments? I'm all for unselfish basketball, but superstars of Lebron's caliber are paid to stop those mini bursts that turn into 15-20 point leads with pure individual play. Not every team is as well balanced as SA from top to bottom. I didn't see that from him anywhere outside of game 2.

This one one of LeBron's worst playoff series of his career, he just looked way too passive and went down without a fight.

During every single one of his quarter outbursts on offense, the lead actually grew. As a great player, he recognized that wasn't working, so he changed what he was doing, and tried to get his teammates involved. So I ask again, what was he doing wrong?

In game 1 and 2 he did a great job on Leonard, and in game 5 he was on Parker. Sure, we'll say he had 2 bad defensive games. But again, overall what could he have done more given the facts I just gave you about his scoring bursts and them actually resulting in a larger deficit.

[plowking]

LeBron was straight up trash in Game 3 defensively. KL and Green torched him.

And why you even bringing up one season of LeBron at age 29 vs a 33-35 year-old Jordan who 3-peated? Just take your loss like a man.

Heat lost, I'm over it. But I just don't get how this is a bad series for Lebron like some people are stating.

It's not a direct comparison to Jordan in the sense that I'm comparing them as players. It's more to show Jordan played below his level in some of those finals, compared to his previous play in the year, yet his TEAM was able to win despite it.

[Lebron23]

Sort of off topic, but the 2014 Heat reminded me of the 2011 Lakers. They lacked motivation, and they didn't change their starting 5. But Lebron played better than Kobe in the playoffs series vs. Spurs. Kobe sucked against Dallas. The Heat lacked athletic ability in this series, and they didn't have the same defensive intensity as the 2012 and 2013 Miami Heat.

[DMV2]

Heat lost, I'm over it. But I just don't get how this is a bad series for Lebron like some people are stating.

It's not a direct comparison to Jordan in the sense that I'm comparing them as players. It's more to show Jordan played below his level in some of those finals, compared to his previous play in the year, yet his TEAM was able to win despite it.
LeBron was the best player on his team and I don't blame him for the series loss. Spurs was just unstoppable with their ball movement, transition, everything you'd like to see in offense. But also, they've been doing this the entire season as well as last season. It just happens that the Heat defense never showed up. They never went for that extra loose ball either. I blame the entire Heat team for not being better prepared.

On LeBron, I don't think he was all that great. He was great in spurts but never entire games. Great one quarter, defers in the next quarter, then great in another quarter then defers again.

I think that's his flaw. He continues to think he's gotta make plays for his teammates every single time. He needs to realize that he can do whatever he wants and eventually his team will fill in their role and help out.

If LeBron feel he's hot and can drop 40, he needs to do it. His teammates will eventually get their shots in and will work extra harder each possession.

[BlazerRed]

"I'm a Heat fan, not a Lebron fan"

:roll:

[plowking]

LeBron was the best player on his team and I don't blame him for the series loss. Spurs was just unstoppable with their ball movement, transition, everything you'd like to see in offense. But also, they've been doing this the entire season as well as last season. It just happens that the Heat defense never showed up. They never went for that extra loose ball either. I blame the entire Heat team for not being better prepared.

On LeBron, I don't think he was all that great. He was great in spurts but never entire games. Great one quarter, defers in the next quarter, then great in another quarter then defers again.

I think that's his flaw. He continues to think he's gotta make plays for his teammates every single time. He needs to realize that he can do whatever he wants and eventually his team will fill in their role and help out.

If LeBron feel he's hot and can drop 40, he needs to do it. His teammates will eventually get their shots in and will work extra harder each possession.

People keep saying this, but like I said, during his scoring stretches, the lead extended every time. You don't just continue doing something if it is not resulting in winning the game.

[sportjames23]

6/6 > 2/5


Beat me to it. The only comparison that matters.

[B-hoop]

People keep saying this, but like I said, during his scoring stretches, the lead extended every time. You don't just continue doing something if it is not resulting in winning the game.

Last night during his scoring strech the Heat were leading by 15+..

Started the 3rd quarter behind by 7, how many shots did Lebron take in the first 5 mins of that quarter?

[plowking]

Last night during his scoring strech the Heat were leading by 15+..

Started the 3rd quarter behind by 7, how many shots did Lebron take in the first 5 mins of that quarter?

True, one of the few exceptions. My mistake.

I'm not sure, but at that point he was spent from playing every minute in the game.

[EwingMan]

I'm not saying anything about the stats, since some things are circumstantial, though it is interesting.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2817947/billbored.gif

[zizozain]

lol

[Psileas]

Heat lost, I'm over it. But I just don't get how this is a bad series for Lebron like some people are stating.

It's not a direct comparison to Jordan in the sense that I'm comparing them as players. It's more to show Jordan played below his level in some of those finals, compared to his previous play in the year, yet his TEAM was able to win despite it.

Lots of people don't see this, because they've grown with the story that the deeper the playoffs went the more dominant he was becoming.
Of course, that's not true, as it's not true for most legends.
Jordan's most dominant series per average were not Finals, they were 1st round series. For example, he had 5 of his 6 highest ppg series in the first round. It's just that nobody cares to remember first rounds that grew this myth.
His least dominant series were the ECF's. The NBA Finals and ECS were in between.

[GimmeThat]

well, he benefited from his teams play.
but I'm uncertain whether or not his team benefited from his play.

even that of the most statistical dominance.

[plowking]

Lots of people don't see this, because they've grown with the story that the deeper the playoffs went the more dominant he was becoming.
Of course, that's not true, as it's not true for most legends.
Jordan's most dominant series per average were not Finals, they were 1st round series. For example, he had 5 of his 6 highest ppg series in the first round. It's just that nobody cares to remember first rounds that grew this myth.
His least dominant series were the ECF's. The NBA Finals and ECS were in between.

It's good to see someone gets the point of the thread.

American media and sports fans seem intent on making storylines and heroic tales of sporting events.
I remember when Wade was dropping 36ppg on 55% shooting against the Celtics the year before the big 3. They still lost in 5. Did anyone think he could do anymore? Was he to blame? Even a small amount? I sure as hell didn't think so.

[B-hoop]

It's good to see someone gets the point of the thread.

American media and sports fans seem intent on making storylines and heroic tales of sporting events.
I remember when Wade was dropping 36ppg on 55% shooting against the Celtics the year before the big 3. They still lost in 5. Did anyone think he could do anymore? Was he to blame? Even a small amount? I sure as hell didn't think so.

I agree in parts, Lebron did not have bad games, my only gripe with him is that he shows for 1 quarter that he can easily dominate scoring 15+ points but then goes passive for the rest of the game.

Re-watch the first quarter from last night's game. When Lebron was aggressive his energy fueled his teammates. They were making shots. Then in the rest of the game he went passive mode and stopped attacking.

When you get to the point he is, top 10 all time, people expect you to always win or at least to stay aggressive all game long. Its not knock on his place in history he couldn't do it, but it doesnt help him go further in the all time rankings.

Its a question of attitude not only stats.

[Collie]

Cherrypicking.

[Dresta]

Now compare MJ's first 3peat to Bron's last 3 finals appearances and championships, and you will see that even excusing the 2011 performance, MJ still craps all over him.

[Rubio2Gasol]

I agree.

Lebron was great in the first quarter of games.

[plowking]

Now compare MJ's first 3peat to Bron's last 3 finals appearances and championships, and you will see that even excusing the 2011 performance, MJ still craps all over him.

Once again, completely missing the point of the thread, despite it being explained.

Bron these finals was better than Jordan was in the 96 finals, yet he lost, so people will criticize him for his performance, instead of look at the fact he played well but his team didn't step up with him.

My point is, Bron was better than a lot of players who won the finals MVP in some series, and people are still acting like he was the main reason they lost.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This is where watching games beats pulling stats outta your ass.. :oldlol:

Bron's numbers were inflated. He did NOT elevate his game in this series and pretty much played average. Too many stretches he went missing while his defense on Kawhi...was terrible.

[IGOTGAME]

Once again, completely missing the point of the thread, despite it being explained.

Bron these finals was better than Jordan was in the 96 finals, yet he lost, so people will criticize him for his performance, instead of look at the fact he played well but his team didn't step up with him.

My point is, Bron was better than a lot of players who won the finals MVP in some series, and people are still acting like he was the main reason they lost.

do you not see the logical fallacy in this way of thinking. its absurd and shows exactly way most people that rely on stats solely don't know what they are talking about.

[diamenz]

This is where watching games beats pulling stats outta your ass.. :oldlol:

Bron's numbers were inflated. He did NOT elevate his game in this series and pretty much played average. Too many stretches he went missing while his defense on Kawhi...was terrible.

:cheers:

[Indian guy]

Too many stretches he went missing

His quiet stretches in this series only seem glaring because of Miami's complete inability to contain SA's offense. Not to mention the inept play of his own teammates on the offensive end of the floor. So when he wasn't producing, the game was getting completely out of hand. In reality, ups and downs in qtr-to-qtr production and quiet stretches are the NORM for any star player. Nobody stays at an even pace in each qtr. A 32 point night, for example, will generally feature splits of 12-4-10-6 from qtr 1 through 4. In normal circumstances, particularly on the big stage, a star's quiet stretch will go unnoticed because his team(a finalist!) is generally good enough to "hang in" even when he's not doing much. Be it with their D or O. But SA was ridiculously hot all series and LeBron's cast cold, so when LeBron had a normal down period, all hell broke lose for Miami.


while his defense on Kawhi...was terrible.

Where is this crap coming from? Kawhi didn't do anything the first 2 games. He went off in games 3 and 4, but really, outside of getting blown by a few times, Kawhi's damage was done by making long, contested jumpers on LeBron. This wasn't bad D, it was great O. In Game 5, LeBron guarded Parker exclusively and shut him down.

[Dresta]

Once again, completely missing the point of the thread, despite it being explained.

Bron these finals was better than Jordan was in the 96 finals, yet he lost, so people will criticize him for his performance, instead of look at the fact he played well but his team didn't step up with him.

My point is, Bron was better than a lot of players who won the finals MVP in some series, and people are still acting like he was the main reason they lost.
Don't think anyone except trolls was acting that he was the main reason they lost. The biggest reason was clearly SA's superior ball-movement combined with Miami's lack of commitment (all season) to its hyperactive defensive scheme. Miami were too old and worn down to maintain this kind of energy-draining defensive scheme a 4th straight year - they need a shotblocker, then they can start playing normal defense again, and not wear down as easily.

I don't blame Bron. He is getting older too, and can't come close to going 100% all game with this defensive scheme either. I blame Spoelstra mostly: he should have seen how ineffective Miami had been all season defensively and known it wasn't going to cut it against SA and that they'd need to try something different.

Would've liked to see Beasley get some burn as well. He actually played decent defense when he was in, and more importantly, brought the energy and athleticism Miami had been so desperately lacking (involved in tipping away at least 4-5 rebounds, scored at will, played with energy). He could've made a difference if utilised.

[chazzy]

I woke up expecting some epic Lebron damage control.. been pretty weak so far :sleeping

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Where is this crap coming from? Kawhi didn't do anything the first 2 games. He went off in games 3 and 4, but really, outside of getting blown by a few times, Kawhi's damage was done by making long, contested jumpers on LeBron. This wasn't bad D, it was great O. In Game 5, LeBron guarded Parker exclusively and shut him down.

Uhh Kawhi is a role player who looked liked an ALLSTAR the last 3 games of this series. :oldlol: You can say he didn't "do anything" the first 2 games, but he did enough to be FMVP...a FMVP who was primarily defended by LeBron.

[chazzy]

Bron stans spent these past couple years trashing Durant, saying his stats against Lebron had no impact because they came when his team was losing and impactless.. oops?

[Indian guy]

I woke up expecting some epic Lebron damage control.. been pretty weak so far :sleeping

Because the hate itself has been so weak. At the end of the day, LeBron had a spectacular season and couldn't win due to inferior teammates/opposition being too ****ing good. Haters have nothing to latch on to, so there's nothing for us to get defensive about.

LeBron also has rings now, so his place is secure. Nothing anyone can attack him with, honestly. Which is why the "hate" since the end of last night's game has been so nitpicky and ineffective.

[chazzy]

Because the hate itself has been so weak. At the end of the day, LeBron had a spectacular season and couldn't win due to inferior teammates/opposition being too ****ing good. Haters have nothing to latch on to, so there's nothing for us to get defensive about.

LeBron also has rings now, so his place is secure. Nothing anyone can attack him with, honestly. Which is why the "hate" since the end of last night's game has been so nitpicky and ineffective.
Yeah it's been a different response this year. Lebron obviously wasn't the reason why they lost like in 2011 and Wade looked wack. Bron stans are trying to spin this into some all time great series though, when you and I both know the impact and timing of his production aren't consistent with the numbers alone.

[andgar923]

How is Bron's cast weak?

It's basically the same core from last season's championship.

He still has 2 legit all stars starting, a possible hall of fame player (one of the greatest 3pt shooters ever), a cast with playoff experience.

The main reason imo was EFFORT, or lack thereof.

Defense is played with effort.

Rarely did I see the Heat play with much effort with any kinds of consistency outside a few spurts. There wasn't much communicating on defense, and they were lackadaisical offensively. No true sense of consistent urgency, it's as if they truly believed the "we play better with our backs against the wall" bullshit and were waiting for that to happen. Most objective fans saw this demeanor.

As far as Bron is concerned, it's been repeated a million times....

Bron appeared to be too passive. And that doesn't mean that he has to look to score every possession. If that has to be explained then :facepalm

As the team's 'leader' it is his duty to keep the team focused and ready at all times, and not wait until their "backs are against the wall".

He has to make sure his team plays with consistent energy and effort and not just in spurts.

MJ was a d*ck to his teammates. His teammates hated him when they played. He was vicious during practice and they criticized him for being that.

But guess what?

They were prepared.

They won.

And after years of retirement and in hindsight, they gave him credit for making them champions. They credit his will to keep them focused and competitive. They credit MJ for practicing every day like it was game 7 of the Finals.

The Heat simply didn't look ready mentally.

And that's on Lebron.

[Xoush]

Dumb thread. Keep pulling stats out of thin air to prop up Lebron. Noone really cares about these idiotic arguments except stat nerds i.e. Lebron stans. Miami Heat lost the finals, and a major reason why they went down being dominated is precisely that Bron doesn't even come close to the player you compare him to. Instead of appreciating his greateness you fuel the fire by making these IDIOTIC comparisons. It's pathetic. Just enjoy the player that he is, stop projecting something upon him he clearly is not/will not be. You would not only do this community a world of good, but also to Lebron himself.