Which player in the general top 20 is most dependent on team accomplishments?

[Akrazotile]

Just a question, don't really have a particular guy in mind or an agenda in any way. I'm just wondering who you guys think receives the most charitable elevation in his all-time rank due to the teams he was lucky enough to be a part of.

We all know how incredibly stupid it is to rank guys based on "The Horry Statistic" because it would be silly to suggest Horry was better than Hakeem, or Fisher and Kobe were better than Shaq. However the sad reality is that most people do weigh team titles far too heavily. Which is the equivalent of suggesting Phil is twice the coach Pop is and then some. To put it simply, it's a formula for the dumb fans to cling to.

But who does it benefit most? Guys in the top 20 all have different claims to fame. Jordan is the most accomplished with accolades. Kareem is the points leader. Stockton the steals and assists leader. Bran and Wilt are statistical gods. Hakeem perhaps the best two way big. Shaq perhaps the most dominant peak. Oscar with an untouchable triple-double record. A few guys have multiple MVP's.


If we stripped away "The Horry Statistic" and evaluated guys solely on their own game and not on the achievements of the organization they played for, how do you think it would reshape the Top 20? Would anyone rise or drop? Does anyone else fall out of it completely? Keep in mind, we're certainly including the way players IMPACT their own team. We're just not adding or subtracting credit based on who they had around them.

Discuss.

[Black and White]

In other words, what OP is trying to say is: "Kobe is overrated"

[longtime lurker]

Weren't you supposed to leave the forum?

[SOD 21]

Rings matter when comparing players with similar accomplishments, resumes and legacies. It obviously doesn't apply to limited role players like Horry or Fisher.

It's a lame argument.

[Droid101]

You guaranteed you'd leave if LeBron didn't score 45. Go away.

[Akrazotile]

You guaranteed you'd leave if LeBron didn't score 45. Go away.


Link?

[Akrazotile]

Rings matter when comparing players with similar accomplishments, resumes and legacies. It obviously doesn't apply to limited role players like Horry or Fisher.

It's a lame argument.


Why?

You think Duncan > Shaq > McHale > Bosh = Hakeem > Dirk > Barkley because of rings?

[Akrazotile]

In other words, what OP is trying to say is: "Kobe is overrated"


Nah man this thread is for objective, non partisan discussion about which players get way more credit than they should relative to their real impact on the game. You brought up Kibe, not me.

[Myth]

Why?

You think Duncan > Shaq > McHale > Bosh = Hakeem > Dirk > Barkley because of rings?

To be fair, that only needs a couple tweaks.

[The Repo Man]

Link?
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Bz7OuzJLCcMJ:207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D342282+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://i62.tinypic.com/2lnegpg.jpg

[Johnny Jones]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Bz7OuzJLCcMJ:207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D342282+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://i62.tinypic.com/2lnegpg.jpg
Google Cache OP :bowdown: :bowdown:

[TheMarkMadsen]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Bz7OuzJLCcMJ:207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D342282+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://i62.tinypic.com/2lnegpg.jpg


:roll: :roll:

So OP..

See ya phaggit

[Akrazotile]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Bz7OuzJLCcMJ:207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D342282+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://i62.tinypic.com/2lnegpg.jpg


Interesting. Alright, fine. I will be a man of my word and submit this to the lab for authenticity, and IF it does prove to be an authentic screen cap I will be gone for good. Results typically take 4-6 weeks to get back.

[jstern]

Kobe.

The reason Kobe gets so much hate is because his fan elevate him as a god, say he's the Goat, yet gets to play with a Shaq, gets a Gasol for nothing, has mediocre Finals. And has no great moments of overcoming things like others on the top 10 list. So many other players that had more impact yet never won anything because they were on shitty teams.

And it's just so many things. Has a horrible game winning percentage, yet is considered as a clutch king. And just dozens of things like that.

So out of the top ten I would say Kobe.

Won't say top 20 because that's such a rare list.

[Black and White]

Interesting. Alright, fine. I will be a man of my word and submit this to the lab for authenticity, and IF it does prove to be an authentic screen cap I will be gone for good. Results typically take 4-6 weeks to get back.

What a bitch, everybody knows you made that thread, just leave now.

[rule1223]

Interesting. Alright, fine. I will be a man of my word and submit this to the lab for authenticity, and IF it does prove to be an authentic screen cap I will be gone for good. Results typically take 4-6 weeks to get back.
dat sad life when a man refuses to leave a message board

[fos]

What a bitch, everybody knows you made that thread, just leave now.

Actually I wouldn't mind hearing what the lab thinks of it...

[J Shuttlesworth]

Kobe is one of the only ones who could go 6-24 in game 7 and still win the ring... and 3 of his rings are w/ Shaq as the FMVP, but everyone acts like those rings carry as much weight as Jordan's.

Duncan was a role player for his 5th ring, so he gets boosted up just for his ring count, much like Kobe.

We saw what happens with LeBron when his teammates aren't playing well. He can put up 28/10 and it won't be enough if his teammates play like shit.

Even Jordan to an extent... where would he really be without Phil/Pippen? On top of that, they got Rodman, Kerr, etc...

And then we have Magic boosting Kareem's legacy, and vice versa... and of course Bird/Parrish/McHale.

I'd say pretty much everyone besides Olajuwon

[Dbrog]

I mean...Malone could be a pretty good pick for this. Without stockton...is there Karl as we knew him? Probably the only player in top20 you could say that about.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Thread is obviously about Kobe...

2

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe is one of the only ones who could go 6-24 in game 7 and still win the ring... and 3 of his rings are w/ Shaq as the FMVP, but everyone acts like those rings carry as much weight as Jordan's.

Duncan was a role player for his 5th ring, so he gets boosted up just for his ring count, much like Kobe.

We saw what happens with LeBron when his teammates aren't playing well. He can put up 28/10 and it won't be enough if his teammates play like shit.

Even Jordan to an extent... where would he really be without Phil/Pippen? On top of that, they got Rodman, Kerr, etc...

And then we have Magic boosting Kareem's legacy, and vice versa... and of course Bird/Parrish/McHale.

I'd say pretty much everyone besides Olajuwon
MJ won a ring shooting 5/19
Duncan won a ring shooting 10/27 (game 7 btw)

2/5

[AintNoSunshine]

Russell, Kobe

[Deuce Bigalow]

Russell won a ring shooting 2/7 (also a game 7)
West won a ring shooting 10/28
Bird won a ring shooting 6/18 (game 7)

Look up basketball history ******

[Deuce Bigalow]

Shaq won a ring shooting 4/11
Dirk won a ring shooting 9/27
Kareem won a ring shooting 2/7 (game 7)
Magic won a ring shooting 7/21

2/5 :oldlol:

[stalkerforlife]

Sorry OP, I don't have Bron in my top 20.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn Deuce


Back to the cave they go

[The Repo Man]

Russell won a ring shooting 2/7 (also a game 7)
West won a ring shooting 10/28
Bird won a ring shooting 6/18 (game 7)

Look up basketball history ******
:applause:

Oh yeah, and OP's b!tchmade...

[Marchesk]

Interesting. Alright, fine. I will be a man of my word and submit this to the lab for authenticity, and IF it does prove to be an authentic screen cap I will be gone for good. Results typically take 4-6 weeks to get back.

Damn, man up and get another alt.

[Mr. Jabbar]

So, we gonna act like this thread ain't about tim duncan?

[DMAVS41]

Definitely not Kobe.

I'd say Hondo probably.

[bukowski81]

Kobe is one of the only ones who could go 6-24 in game 7 and still win the ring... and 3 of his rings are w/ Shaq as the FMVP, but everyone acts like those rings carry as much weight as Jordan's.

Duncan was a role player for his 5th ring, so he gets boosted up just for his ring count, much like Kobe.

We saw what happens with LeBron when his teammates aren't playing well. He can put up 28/10 and it won't be enough if his teammates play like shit.

Even Jordan to an extent... where would he really be without Phil/Pippen? On top of that, they got Rodman, Kerr, etc...

And then we have Magic boosting Kareem's legacy, and vice versa... and of course Bird/Parrish/McHale.

I'd say pretty much everyone besides Olajuwon

Please tell me of another role player that was the second leader scorer, leader in rebounds, in blocks and the best defender in the playoffs for his team, plus the leader in almost all advanced statistics including PER.

If you think Duncan was a role player in this championship you either have an agenda or dont have any idea what you are talking about.

[GimmeThat]

well, I don't know any coaches that won the championship with bad players.

but anyone here is free to educate me on basketball history.

[Keno]

bill russell and kobe come to mind.

[Legends66NBA7]

Is Bob Cousy considered Top 20 ? If so, then it's him.

[AintNoSunshine]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Thread is obviously about Kobe...

[B]2

[Akrazotile]

:oldlol: Exactly, that's not top 10.


Have to agree. 2 FMVP, 1 MVP, 0 DPOY.


Thats not even top 10 WITHOUT accounting for the 'lifetime achievement' asterisk on the mvp and the 'popularity over production' asterisk on at least one of the finals mvp's.


I wasnt really thinking of Kibe specifically when I made the thread but now that a few others have brought it to my attention I think there's no question he most closely fits the description.

[Roundball_Rock]

Top 10? I would say Hakeem. He pretty much made his legacy during those two years he won rings, plus 93' when he was MVP runner-up. His record outside of 1993-1995 is not comparable to that of the rest of the top 10. Take away those titles and what is the difference between him and David Robinson?

Top 20? Isiah Thomas. He was never a serious MVP candidate in any year and in fact has only one MVP finish higher than 8th (a 5th place finish earlier in his career). He made three all-NBA first teams and two all-NBA second teams. Detroit's titles also fortuitously came during that period between the decline of Boston and the rise of Chicago.

To be clear, this is not on attack on either player. They are legends and I have Hakeem 11th on my all-time list and Isiah in my top 20. Their teams would not have won without them, especially Hakeem's--the Rockets had a tough road to the title in both years. However, off the top of my head, those are the two guys in the top 20 who seem the most team accomplishment dependent when it comes to their legacies.


The reason Kobe gets so much hate is because his fan elevate him as a god, say he's the Goat, yet gets to play with a Shaq, gets a Gasol for nothing

What is unusual about a Gasol? Gasol was comparable to or inferior to the second best player on most championship teams. There were Gasol equivalents on the other contenders since, outside of a case like Dirk in 11', you usually need two all-stars to be a legitimate contender. Yes, it is true Kobe has had a very lucky career--but who in the top 10 all-time didn't?

[kshutts1]

Top 10? I would say Hakeem. He pretty much made his legacy during those two years he won rings, plus 93' when he was MVP runner-up. His record outside of 1993-1995 is not comparable to that of the rest of the top 10. Take away those titles and what is the difference between him and David Robinson?

Top 20? Isiah Thomas. He was never a serious MVP candidate in any year and in fact has only one MVP finish higher than 8th (a 5th place finish earlier in his career). He made three all-NBA first teams and two all-NBA second teams. Detroit's titles also fortuitously came during that period between the decline of Boston and the rise of Chicago.

To be clear, this is not on attack on either player. They are legends and I have Hakeem 11th on my all-time list and Isiah in my top 20. Their teams would not have won without them, especially Hakeem's--the Rockets had a tough road to the title in both years. However, off the top of my head, those are the two guys in the top 20 who seem the most team accomplishment dependent when it comes to their legacies.



What is unusual about a Gasol? Gasol was comparable to or inferior to the second best player on most championship teams. There were Gasol equivalents on the other contenders since, outside of a case like Dirk in 11', you usually need two all-stars to be a legitimate contender. Yes, it is true Kobe has had a very lucky career--but who in the top 10 all-time didn't?
That's called logic. Get that out of this Kobe-agenda thread.

[kshutts1]

I wanna say Bill Russell, or maybe Pippen.

If everything else about every single career was identical, and we just happened to forget who won championships and what overall records were... Russell falls out of the top 10 and Pippen falls out of the top 20.

[riseagainst]

lebron would be but he ain't top 20.

[HOoopCityJones]

Bird played with two All-Stars in his prime like Lebron James.

By OP and 50% of Ish's standards half of the Top 10 shouldn't be there because of who they played with.

[TheMan]

Bill Russell and it ain't close. What's his biggest claim to GOAT status? His 11 titles and we all know winning chips is in large part a team achievement. Yes, he was a key reason why the Celtics were good but he was surrounded by multiple HOFers and let's be honest, he wasn't even the best C in his era, Wilt was.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:roll: @ Kobe mentions

Kobe has the most all stars appearances + all league awards + all defensive team awards of all time. And there are maybe a handful of players with more MVPs. Haters continue to live in delusion.

[NumberSix]

Bill Russell and it ain't close. What's his biggest claim to GOAT status? His 11 titles and we all know winning chips is in large part a team achievement. Yes, he was a key reason why the Celtics were good but he was surrounded by multiple HOFers and let's be honest, he wasn't even the best C in his era, Wilt was.
Was he? Can you imagine if Wade was league MVP the season LeBron won his first chip? He would be labelled an eternal piggybacking beta. Can u imagine if Pippen was the leading scorer in all 6 finals? Would Jordan have a single FMVP?

The lack of FMVPs works to Russell's myth. It allows us to pretend he was always the best player on the team since there are no FMVPs to point out that other guys where the best players in the finals.

Just look how kobe'tards try to act like he was the best player in the 3 peat. Shaq having all 3 FMVPs is the only fact to shut them up. Without FMVPs, they would have free rein to spread their revisionist history that Kobe was the best player.

[Jlamb47]

Um OP IS A F4G
kobe is top 5

[TheMarkMadsen]

Was he? Can you imagine if Wade was league MVP the season LeBron won his first chip? He would be labelled an eternal piggybacking beta. Can u imagine if Pippen was the leading scorer in all 6 finals? Would Jordan have a single FMVP?

The lack of FMVPs works to Russell's myth. It allows us to pretend he was always the best player on the team since there are no FMVPs to point out that other guys where the best players in the finals.

Just look how kobe'tards try to act like he was the best player in the 3 peat. Shaq having all 3 FMVPs is the only fact to shut them up. Without FMVPs, they would have free rein to spread their revisionist history that Kobe was the best player.

Or what if Wade won FMVP before Lebron ever won MVP

Would Lebron be seen as a piggy backing beta?

[Keno]

:oldlol: Exactly, that's not top 10.

lmao.

[Iceman#44]

Bill Russell

[Droid101]

Or what if Wade won FMVP before Lebron ever won MVP

Would Lebron be seen as a piggy backing beta?
:lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Damn good question... should have named a somewhat consensus top 20 though.

Kobe being the answer would have been visible as ****

[ArbitraryWater]

Interesting. Alright, fine. I will be a man of my word and submit this to the lab for authenticity, and IF it does prove to be an authentic screen cap I will be gone for good. Results typically take 4-6 weeks to get back.

:oldlol:

[T_L_P]

Well, if it's just accomplishments Duncan would be ahead of everybody except Jordan, Russell and Kareem, and possibly Magic. So it's obviously not him.

Probably Hondo or Moses.

[AlphaWolf24]

Reg Season MVP's = Team accomplishment

Rings = Team Accomplishment



who is the better 1 on 1 scorer..who can score the most points

who is the better 1 on 1 defender ...who can shut down the other team's star

If we take the "team" aspect away....and look at individual greatness/skillsets
the players that suffer the most are..

Bill Russell
Magic
John Stockton
John Havlicek
Tim Duncan


Players that don't need team accomplishments because of individual skillsets are...

Jordan
Wilt
Kobe
Hakeem









next

[T_L_P]

Reg Season MVP's = Team accomplishment

Rings = Team Accomplishment



who is the better 1 on 1 scorer..who can score the most points

who is the better 1 on 1 defender ...who can shut down the other team's star

If we take the "team" aspect away....and look at individual greatness/skillsets
the players that suffer the most are..

Bill Russell
Magic
John Stockton
John Havlicek
Tim Duncan


Players that don't need team accomplishments because of individual skillsets are...

Jordan
Wilt
Kobe
Hakeem









next

You've probably got Duncan on skillsets...but greatness?

What exactly does this mean? Statistically he's ahead of Kobe, and he's twice the defensive option...whereas Kobe isn't that far ahead of prime Duncan offensively.

Could you explain the greatness thing more?

[Kvnzhangyay]

Isn't this obviously whichever players have one of the most rings? I mean its impossible to win by yourself

[AlphaWolf24]

You've probably got Duncan on skillsets...but greatness?

What exactly does this mean? Statistically he's ahead of Kobe, and he's twice the defensive option...whereas Kobe isn't that far ahead of prime Duncan offensively.

Could you explain the greatness thing more?


looking at it from the point of view " taking team accomplishments " out...so that leaves individual skillset

Duncan was not a 1 on 1 offensive weapon like MJ, Kobe etc...

Duncan was not the stretched defensive player Kobe, MJ were etc...( granted they were guards....not Centers/PF) Duncan is a great defensive player/re bounder

again...I was listing top 20 players.....I feel MJ , Kobe, Hakeem played more of a defensive game on more areas of the floor.



Not even trying knock down TD...IMO he is a top 5 - 6 alltime player/GOAT leader.......just looking players on individual skill.....without teammates.

[riseagainst]

i would say lebron james, but then again he's not in the top 20 at the moment.

[Straight_Ballin]

OP said he was leaving in Bron didn't score 45, so I didn't read.

[the mesiah]

Bill Russell and it ain't close. What's his biggest claim to GOAT status? His 11 titles and we all know winning chips is in large part a team achievement. Yes, he was a key reason why the Celtics were good but he was surrounded by multiple HOFers and let's be honest, he wasn't even the best C in his era, Wilt was.
http://www.riseandgrind.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/cosign-305x381.jpg
The most overrated "top 10" pick player ever ..I'm looking at people's list and see him at 1-4 regularly and it's even more asanine when posters say he's top 3-5 all time but then quickly turn around and say wilt played in a weak era ..