What Case does Bird have over Kobe and Duncan?

[Breezy]

I'm not asking Just to assert my opinion and claim victory. I really want the case to be made.

Like any good racist I would love to put Bird ahead them but It Just doesn't Make sense to me. Kobe has more titles and Statistical superiority (kinda) AND Longevity and outside of MVP's he has more individual accolades All NBA All Defense ect. Same with Duncan. More titles, more finals MVP's Longevity. Maybe not Statistical superiority but Clearly light years ahead of Bird on the defensive end.

For years everyone has pretty well agreed that Magic and bird were right there next to each other but that Magic is ahead. Well no it seems like some players might be finding that gap between them.

[ILLsmak]

I have faith in Bird to psychologically dominate his match up no matter who he goes against. Larry has much higher BBall IQ. He was like a savant.

Kobe is just not as good as Bird. Too much baggage.

Duncan is a big, so it's harder to tell, but compared to his position and his peers, I think Bird outclasses TD as well.

-Smak

[1987_Lakers]

I have faith in Bird to psychologically dominate his match up no matter who he goes against. Larry has much higher BBall IQ. He was like a savant.

Kobe is just not as good as Bird. Too much baggage.

Duncan is a big, so it's harder to tell, but compared to his position and his peers, I think Bird outclasses TD as well.

-Smak

This. I don't see Kobe having a strong case over Bird like the OP would suggest, Bird did win 3 straight MVPs and at the peak of his career was better than Kobe ever was.

Duncan is hard to tell, you can make a case for either player. Again, I would take peak Bird over peak Duncan, Duncan has the longevity, but you can say he was never a dominant player after 2007.

[GimmeThat]

that Allen Iverson case.

[cltcfn2924]

I'm not asking Just to assert my opinion and claim victory. I really want the case to be made.

Like any good racist I would love to put Bird ahead them but It Just doesn't Make sense to me. Kobe has more titles and Statistical superiority (kinda) AND Longevity and outside of MVP's he has more individual accolades All NBA All Defense ect. Same with Duncan. More titles, more finals MVP's Longevity. Maybe not Statistical superiority but Clearly light years ahead of Bird on the defensive end.

For years everyone has pretty well agreed that Magic and bird were right there next to each other but that Magic is ahead. Well no it seems like some players might be finding that gap between them.


Kobe does not have statistical superiority. He shot a lot more and had a poorer %, less steals and assists. Longevity is a valid point until you realize how Bird went after the 50/50 balls. He gave 110% every night.

[1987_Lakers]

People don't appreciate just how dominant Bird was at his peak. There was a 10 game stretch in 1986 where he averaged...

28.3 ppg, 13.4 rpg and 9.3 apg on 53% shooting.

6 out of the 10 games were triple doubles, MONSTER triple doubles.

[Harison]

Magic and Bird came to the NBA at the same time, so there is no cross-era issue, and their rivalry was the reason I started watching NBA in the first place. Bird was clearly the better player from the day one, only after he started declining due to injuries Magic took over. It was pretty much unanimous opinion among experts and fans (except Lakers fans ofc :D

Bird's three MVPs in the row in the Golden age speaks volumes. For example:

MVP '84, 1st place votes:
1. Bird 52
2. Bernard King 11
3. Magic 5

MVP '85, 1st place votes:
1. Bird 73
2. Magic 1

MVP '86, 1st place votes:
1. Bird 73
2. Dominique 5
3. Magic 0

Only after Bird's health issues Magic started winning MVPs, before that it was Bird's by a landslide.

Like today Lebron vs Durant, just because Durant one day will be better due to Lebron's decline or injuries, would it make Durant higher All-time, even if he eventually wins few more rings? Some may say so like they do with Magic, and I can see their argument, but at the same time how many players can have a luxury to play with Kareem and those superstacked Lakers teams? Celtics were stacked too, but not as much, or as long.

Plus Bird was a more complete player than Magic, arguably GOAT offensively, right there with Jordan (Magic ofc not far behind), while being a better defender too.

Bird was obviously more dominant offensively than Duncan, but not as great (although still solid) defensively. Still Bird could impose his will better than TD, and if we swap them, I can bet Duncan isnt winning any MVPs in the Golden era, while Bird would very likely be a perennial MVP today, beasting on today's weak competition.

[BoutPractice]

Duncan, you could still argue.

But Bird was just plainly better than Kobe Bryant, especially at his peak.

The stats (which point to a greater shooting accuracy, much better rebounding, playmaking, and more on-court impact) and accolades (three championships as the leader of the team against some of the most stacked competition of all-time versus two, three MVPs versus one) only confirm what you can see in the video. Larry had the ability to both play within the flow of the offense and to impose his will on the game when needed, while Kobe was mainly good at one specific role: creating his own shot, his own way, regardless of any defender or indeed teammate. Larry had a total basketball IQ whereas Kobe's was limited to scoring - even though he had very good passing ability he didn't use it as much as he could have. Larry was both a superstar and a selfless team player, Kobe a superstar that needed the team to adapt to his individual style first.

Finally unlike Kobe, Larry didn't care at all about being the "hero" on TV, because he didn't grow up idolizing Michael. Kobe was also a great competitor but that always mixed with a "Hollywood" desire to recreate the Jordan narrative of the lone cowboy who saves the day for his team.

As a result Larry was the type of player who could instantly turn one of the worst teams in the league into one of the best, whereas Kobe had a positive (only trolls would deny that) but more limited impact overall.

[ihoopallday]

Never watched Bird play live. Just watching his games on YouTube, I believe he had more impact than Kobe and Duncan (Whom I watched). I feel bad for you guys who were able to watch him play and have to deal with these types of questions. :lol I'm sure 20 years from now I'll be doing the same.

[Mr. Jabbar]

the white stiff is easily the most overrated player in the top ten, i got kobe comfortably ahead of him, not duncan tho.here is the official top 10 just in case anyone missed the memo:

http://s12.postimg.org/wcqkmb2l9/to_do_list2.png

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Op should have his posting rights taken away for disrespecting bird so much.

[GimmeThat]

People don't appreciate just how dominant Bird was at his peak. There was a 10 game stretch in 1986 where he averaged...

28.3 ppg, 13.4 rpg and 9.3 apg on 53% shooting.

6 out of the 10 games were triple doubles, MONSTER triple doubles.


I guess if Kevin Durant averaged 40+ over 10 games, or had a string of 50+ games in lets say continuously, or even 6 out of 10 games.

It might bore the both of us.

[Amar'e_Juwanna]

Bird seems like he was half jordan and half bill walton. willpower, determination, talent, craft, basketball intelligence, selflessness, humility, leadership, injury.

[Breezy]

I agree that Bird was better in his Prime than Kobe and even a better clutch player (which is saying something). If my life depended on the outcome of a game a series or a whole season I'd take prime bird 10 times out of 10. But the 2 extra championships, the defense, the scoring and the overall longevity seems to (by the way most people judge these things) give him the edge.

Don't think I don't know what a complete force of nature Bird was. I caught the tail end of his career and I've seen all the available footage. I put Magic above All of them for the obvious reasons. (2 extra chips.) But also just because Magic was the best team player the league has ever seen. He could put up the stats when he needed to but the dude made 9 Finals and he only played 12 years.

So in any given year He had a 100% chance of making the playoffs, a 75% of making the Finals a 41.6 percent chance of winning it all. A 50% chance of being named either a League MVP or a Finals MVP. Show me anyone outside of Bill Russel with that kind of record.

[305Baller]

Kobe vs Bird is a matchup I would definetely love to see with both in their primes. Bird had Jordans number early in Jordans career. Was prime Kobe better than early Jordan??

[chopchop20]

Bird even said that Kobe was better than he was. And the fact that Kobe is more accomplished speaks for itself.

[305Baller]

Bird even said that Kobe was better than he was. And the fact that Kobe is more accomplished speaks for itself.

Bird doesnt know shit. Bird called Jordan a god and then would beat him.

[Amar'e_Juwanna]

Kobe vs Bird is a matchup I would definetely love to see with both in their primes. Bird had Jordans number early in Jordans career. Was prime Kobe better than early Jordan??

see this just makes no sense to me. kobe based his game entirely around jordan. there is no kobe if jordan is sitll in early phases. also depends on which specific teams you are pitting against one another.

[305Baller]

see this just makes no sense to me. kobe based his game entirely around jordan. there is no kobe if jordan is sitll in early phases. also depends on which specific teams you are pitting against one another.

what doesnt make sense?

[chopchop20]

see this just makes no sense to me. kobe based his game entirely around jordan. there is no kobe if jordan is sitll in early phases. also depends on which specific teams you are pitting against one another.

So Kobe is a clone? :confusedshrug:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird definitely has a top5 peak/prime, and the other two not really, at their best he was just the player you'd go with. He also has more MVP's than either, won more titles than Kobe as the best player too.He was also playing in arguably the GOAT decade and conference, terrific superstars and teams at the top.
Duncan is pretty close to Bird on the all-time list (longevity also helps him a lot), Kobe a bit lower.





Don't think I don't know what a complete force of nature Bird was. I caught the tail end of his career and I've seen all the available footage. I put Magic above All of them for the obvious reasons. (2 extra chips.) But also just because Magic was the best team player the league has ever seen. He could put up the stats when he needed to but the dude made 9 Finals and he only played 12 years.

So in any given year He had a 100% chance of making the playoffs, a 75% of making the Finals a 41.6 percent chance of winning it all. A 50% chance of being named either a League MVP or a Finals MVP. Show me anyone outside of Bill Russel with that kind of record.

Bird played in the East though, considerably tougher than the West and probably the GOAT conference (80s EC). And Magic walked in to an already really good team with prime Kareem, Wilkes, Nixon, also Cooper and Haywood walking in (then Worthy, McAdoo... also; when Larry came around the Celtics had the 2nd worst record in the league. You put Bird on the Lakers since the get-go and he most likely ups that (what Magic did), as long as he's healthy.

[chopchop20]

Bird definitely has a top5 peak/prime, and the other two not really, at their best he was just the player you'd go with. He also has more MVP's than either, won more titles than Kobe as the best player too.He was also playing in arguably the GOAT decade and conference, terrific superstars and teams at the top.
Duncan is pretty close to Bird on the all-time list (longevity also helps him a lot), Kobe a bit lower.




Bird played in the East though, considerably tougher than the West and probably the GOAT conference (80s EC). And Magic walked in to an already really good team with prime Kareem, Wilkes, Nixon, also Cooper and Haywood walking in (then Worthy, McAdoo... also; when Larry came around the Celtics had the 2nd worst record in the league. You put Bird on the Lakers since the get-go and he most likely ups that (what Magic did), as long as he's healthy.



And if you put heaven on Earth, none of us would have anything to worry about. :cheers:

[bdreason]

Peak play. I have no problem if people want to rank guys like Shaq, Duncan, and Magic ahead of him. Anywhere from #6 to #8 seems appropriate.

[chopchop20]

Peak play. I have no problem if people want to rank guys like Shaq, Duncan, and Magic ahead of him. Anywhere from #6 to #8 seems appropriate.

A career is more than a peak? Otherwise Gilbert Arenas is in the Top 25 all time.

[Hands of Iron]

Bird got the three consecutive MVP's tho. :-)

[chopchop20]

Bird got the three consecutive MVP's tho. :-)

Never won 3 consecutive titles... tho

[Hands of Iron]

His opposition in both the ECF and Finals was absurd as well. Could easily have 5 rings and 4 Finals MVP's if not for running up against the some of the greatest teams of all-time, that's going just from Finals the Celtics were actually in.

[Hands of Iron]

Never won 3 consecutive titles... tho

Who cares where other people rate Bird? :oldlol:

He's comfortable. :applause:

[TheMilkyBarKid]

And if you put heaven on Earth, none of us would have anything to worry about. :cheers:
Simple minded idiot.

[miller-time]

My question is why are people bringing up Bird and not Magic?

[Anaximandro1]

-Duncan led the Spurs to four championships (the fifth was an incredible team effort), wins the stats battle by a considerable margin and his intangibles are by all accounts extraordinary. He's on another level.

-Bird led the Celtics to three championships, while Kobe led the Lakers to two championships. They have similar stats, but Bird is a great team player and has more MVPs.

Bird should be ranked ahead of Kobe.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pIzZqiaiWkY/U6Fm3WYyW4I/AAAAAAAADAk/Hf8hWrL2CV8/s1600/5.jpg


TOP 5 -> Duncan

TOP 10 -> Bird

TOP 15 -> Kobe

[BoutPractice]

Bird even said that Kobe was better than he was. And the fact that Kobe is more accomplished speaks for itself.
Bird has a lot of respect for individual, 1-on-1 greatness. The "God" quote regarding Michael Jordan, Kobe, Wilt Chamberlain...

At the end of the day however, a player whose production is entirely geared towards a team effort for the win can be "better" than a great 1-on-1 player in the sense that it's better to have him on the court playing for your team. Especially if he can also take over individually, set the tone, and shift the momentum by himself when needed.

[Blue&Orange]

http://www.hceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/case-cx800b-excavator.jpg

[SOD 21]

An argument can certainly be made for both Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant over Larry Bird when you consider the entirety of their careers, which for each of them has been far longer and with greater overall team success. Both Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan have appeared in more NBA finals and won more championships than Larry Bird. Kobe has the same number of final MVPs as Bird and Tim Duncan actually has one more finals MVP than Larry Legend.

Plus, Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan have played at an elite level for a much longer period of time and that must be factored in as well. It is unfortunate that Larry Bird injured his back shoveling gravel in his driveway that dramatically impacted his career in a negative way. That damn hick, and I mean that in an endearing way, should've paid someone to do that.

I still have Larry Bird one spot ahead of Tim Duncan and two spots ahead of Kobe Bryant on my top 10 player listing all-time. It may be time to reconsider my top 10 last and consider moving them up, especially in light of this last championship from Tim Duncan. But the hard part is that I just remember so vividly how great Bird was in his prime when he regularly put up: 26 points, 10 rebounds, seven assists and was the best shooter in the game for number of years.

All legends and all great.

[necya]

nothing, he has also 2 arms and 2 legs, not more.
just watch the games, nobody can't **** with Bird since 30 years except Michael Jordan as a basketball player.

[miles berg]

Bird is the 2nd best player I've ever seen. His career being cut short is the only reason he isn't the clear #2 player ever.

Absolutely amazing and dominant.

[Carbine]

Bird Vs Duncan:

5 titles to 3
14 All-NBA Defense selections to 3
14 All-NBA Teams to 10
3 FMVP to 2

Bird has one more regular season MVP.

Peak Duncan put up 25/15.5/5.25 assists and godly defensive impact. If Bird was more impactful, it was by a hair.

1061 total games for Bird compared to 1488 and counting for Duncan. That's 40 percent more longevity. Next year he could likely make it 50 percent more longevity.

Hard to rank Bird higher.

[Jailblazers7]

I think Bird is a rare case where the absolute brilliance of his peak is enough to make people forget about his lack of longevity. Also, let's be honest these discussion always revolve around offensive ability more than defense so Duncan & Kobe's advantage their isn't going to be heavily weighted by some people. Bird probably has a good argument for GOAT offensive player.

[Iceman#44]

I think Bird is a rare case where the absolute brilliance of his peak is enough to make people forget about his lack of longevity. Also, let's be honest these discussion always revolve around offensive ability more than defense so Duncan & Kobe's advantage their isn't going to be heavily weighted by some people. Bird probably has a good argument for GOAT offensive player.

Agree. Of course Bird's longevity was not on the same level of TD of KB.

BUT, his PEAK years (let's say 3 straight MVP with Magic, MJ around in the Golden Era) were so absolute brilliant that you can (or I) put him in the top 5-6. Bird's peak was unreal, TD and KB peak are not comparable.
To me, Bird is top 5. Let's not forget that Bird was in GOAT talk during the 80s...before the injury slow him down...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Never won a title without 3-5 HOF teammates.

Bird is the most consistently overrated player of all time.

[DMAVS41]

Simple...at his very best...and he was there for a decent stretch.

He was better than Kobe and Duncan at their best.

Having said that, I don't think that trumps what Duncan has now done start to finish for his career.

I have Bird over Kobe though...

[AlphaWolf24]

-Duncan led the Spurs to four championships (the fifth was an incredible team effort), wins the stats battle by a considerable margin and his intangibles are by all accounts extraordinary. He's on another level.

-Bird led the Celtics to three championships, while Kobe led the Lakers to two championships. They have similar stats, but Bird is a great team player and has more MVPs.

Bird should be ranked ahead of Kobe.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pIzZqiaiWkY/U6Fm3WYyW4I/AAAAAAAADAk/Hf8hWrL2CV8/s1600/5.jpg


:facepalm O....M...G

[AlphaWolf24]

Simple...at his very best...and he was there for a decent stretch.

He was better than Kobe and Duncan at their best.

Having said that, I don't think that trumps what Duncan has now done start to finish for his career.

I have Bird over Kobe though...

this guy...

[MMM]

Is it really that shocking that some have Bird over Kobe???

Are we going to forget he was in the GOAT discussion in one of the most competitive eras of the league. If we are going to compare cross generation talents than it makes sense to me at least that peak play should be more of a factor over other factors that seem less comparably over different eras.

I ve also felt it doesn't make sense to use ring counts especially if we are talking about players from the 60s and 90s because of how difficult it was to actually win in those eras. I mean would Kobe led teams in the 90s going to have more success than Stockton, GP, Reggie Miller led teams??? Not to say that those players are necessarily on Kobe's level but just feel he would also be held ringless in the MJ era.

[HOoopCityJones]

Bryant is over Bird if you don't suffer extreme nostalgia.


But i get it. It's not like anyone can really blast you for having Larry over him, but I think when people think honestly , and take the extreme irrational hate for someone they've never even talked to out of the discussion , they'll see Kobe's had the better career and was the better two-way player. Despite the myths ISH or the internet in general try to make up about Kobe's D.

Lebron's D is more overrated than Kobe's. People see one block from the guy and all of a sudden he deserves DPOY. Say what you want about Kobe/Laker fans, but we never pretended the guy was some Defensive specialist.

[AlphaWolf24]

Is it really that shocking that some have Bird over Kobe???

Are we going to forget he was in the GOAT discussion in one of the most competitive eras of the league. If we are going to compare cross generation talents than it makes sense to me at least that peak play should be more of a factor over other factors that seem less comparably over different eras.

I ve also felt it doesn't make sense to use ring counts especially if we are talking about players from the 60s and 90s because of how difficult it was to actually win in those eras. I mean would Kobe led teams in the 90s going to have more success than Stockton, GP, Reggie Miller led teams??? Not to say that those players are necessarily on Kobe's level but just feel he would also be held ringless in the MJ era.


If "Prime" Kobe could Murk the Spurs year after year.....I don't think he would have any trouble with Gary Peyton and Shawn Kemp ( Sonics Lost to the Lephonso Ellis led Nuggets)....6'3" GP is guarding Kobe???.....

Kobe can Drop 33ppg against the #1 ranked Spurs defense.....but he's going to have a problem with Jeff Malone on the Jazz?......

Kobe and Shaq's Lakers easily get Titles in any era.....Kobe and Gasol's Lakers easily get titles in any era.

John Stockton and Karl Malone played over 20 years....they always lost... 80's , 90's , 00's it didn't matter.......

[HOoopCityJones]

2000's was wayyyy more stacked than the 80's , alota those guys just couldn't make it to the finish line like Kobe and Duncan.

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe Bryant was the better offensive threat then Bird ever was.....

Kobe Bryant was also the better defensive player then Bird ever was...

Kobe Bryant was also the better post season player then Bird ever was..

Kobe Bryant also has been all these things for a much longer period of time then Bird .


Bird was the better passer and played in a better era then Kobe....but that doesn't mean he is a better player or had a better career.

Bird and Magic changed the game...their rivalry will never be matched.....



Peak?...Kobe's Peak is whole decade?...a whole decade of 28PPG 6reb and 5ast....to go along with 5/7

Bird couldn't do that....

[iamgine]

I'm not asking Just to assert my opinion and claim victory. I really want the case to be made.

Like any good racist I would love to put Bird ahead them but It Just doesn't Make sense to me. Kobe has more titles and Statistical superiority (kinda) AND Longevity and outside of MVP's he has more individual accolades All NBA All Defense ect. Same with Duncan. More titles, more finals MVP's Longevity. Maybe not Statistical superiority but Clearly light years ahead of Bird on the defensive end.

For years everyone has pretty well agreed that Magic and bird were right there next to each other but that Magic is ahead. Well no it seems like some players might be finding that gap between them.
Well regarding Kobe...Larry managed to win 3 MVPs & had 3 titles as #1. Also 4x he was second in MVP voting. That's all in 9 short years he was healthy. Kobe has 1 MVP and 2 titles as #1 (or 2 more if anyone want to count him and Shaq as 1a/1b).

Regarding Duncan...he had 2 MVPs and 3 or at most 4 titles as #1.

Unless rings as role player and longevity suddenly matters a lot, why would Larry Bird be below them at all?

[AlphaWolf24]

Well regarding Kobe...Larry managed to win 3 MVPs & had 3 titles as #1. Also 4x he was second in MVP voting. That's all in 9 short years he was healthy. Kobe has 1 MVP and 2 titles as #1 (or 2 more if anyone want to count him and Shaq as 1a/1b).

Regarding Duncan...he had 2 MVPs and 3 or at most 4 titles as #1.

Unless rings as role player and longevity suddenly matters a lot, why would Larry Bird be below them at all?


How is Larry considerd the #1 in 3 titles when he only has 2 FMVP's???

so by your own Criteria...( witch is dumb)



Larry only has 2 titles as the #1:rolleyes: and 1 title as a role player.:lol



once again we are dealing with someone who never even watched Bird play..lol

Unless you put regular season awards over actual skill and post season play plus longevity( Nash has more MVP's then Shaq)
there is no way anyone could objectively say Bird was a better player or had a better career then Kobe.

[iamgine]

How is Larry considerd the #1 in 3 titles when he only has 2 FMVP's???

so by your own Criteria...( witch is dumb)



Larry only has 2 titles as the #1:rolleyes: and 1 title as a role player.:lol



once again we are dealing with someone who never even watched Bird play..lol
lol how are you not on my ignore list yet :oldlol:

[AlphaWolf24]

lol how are you not on my ignore list yet :oldlol:


your dumb azz didn't even watch Bird play...:lol

put me on ignore kid...you can't handle the truth!

scram.

[cltcfn2924]

Never won a title without 3-5 HOF teammates.

Bird is the most consistently overrated player of all time.

This is a consistently poor argument. Parish would not be HOF without Bird. McHale would not be HOF without Bird. Bird took DJ over the top also. You nimble minded folks can't wrap your heads around the fact that Bird truly made his teammates better. Lose that argument, it'd just dead wrong.

[cltcfn2924]

Kobe Bryant was the better offensive threat then Bird ever was.....

Kobe Bryant was also the better defensive player then Bird ever was...

Kobe Bryant was also the better post season player then Bird ever was..

Kobe Bryant also has been all these things for a much longer period of time then Bird .


Bird was the better passer and played in a better era then Kobe....but that doesn't mean he is a better player or had a better career.

Bird and Magic changed the game...their rivalry will never be matched.....



Peak?...Kobe's Peak is whole decade?...a whole decade of 28PPG 6reb and 5ast....to go along with 5/7

Bird couldn't do that....


Of course Bird could have, he didn't care to be an overblown chucker. Kobe couldn't play half the defense Bird did. Bird: 24.3, 10 rebounds and 6 assists.
You Kobe stans are just way out there.

[Pointguard]

Magic and Bird came to the NBA at the same time, so there is no cross-era issue, and their rivalry was the reason I started watching NBA in the first place. Bird was clearly the better player from the day one, only after he started declining due to injuries Magic took over. It was pretty much unanimous opinion among experts and fans (except Lakers fans ofc :D

Bird's three MVPs in the row in the Golden age speaks volumes. For example:

MVP '84, 1st place votes:
1. Bird 52
2. Bernard King 11
3. Magic 5

MVP '85, 1st place votes:
1. Bird 73
2. Magic 1

MVP '86, 1st place votes:
1. Bird 73
2. Dominique 5
3. Magic 0

Only after Bird's health issues Magic started winning MVPs, before that it was Bird's by a landslide.


Bird wasn't ready for the post season until 1984. Bird was wildly inconsistent and seemingly not ready for the pressure. Magic was more consistent and ready from day one. And this was with Magic not really manning his position until '84. Magic was a better offensive rebounder, passer, shot much better from the floor, showed the ability to make players around him better. In the same way that Durant is not considered better than Lebron primarily because of his ability to win it all. Magic had two FMVP's before 1984 and Bird had none. In fact the player guarding Bird's man, Cedric Maxwell won it the year they made it.



Like today Lebron vs Durant, just because Durant one day will be better due to Lebron's decline or injuries, would it make Durant higher All-time, even if he eventually wins few more rings? Some may say so like they do with Magic, and I can see their argument, but at the same time how many players can have a luxury to play with Kareem and those superstacked Lakers teams? Celtics were stacked too, but not as much, or as long.

The Celtics had the best frontcourt ever. McHale was the best double sided PF ever at this point. Parrish the third best center for much of the 80's. Dennis Johnson was one of the best clutch players around. Ainge was above average. Before that Archibald was a great PG. And they had good bench play.


Plus Bird was a more complete player than Magic, arguably GOAT offensively, right there with Jordan (Magic ofc not far behind), while being a better defender too.

Magic was more clutch. more efficient, had more control of the game, had better judgement, and was better in the playoffs. I wouldn't say Bird was better overall offensively save only '86 and maybe '84 as Bird was usually held in check in the playoffs in the other years. In '87 and '88 Bird had great regular seasons but Magic had more complete years.

[cltcfn2924]

Bryant is over Bird if you don't suffer extreme nostalgia.


But i get it. It's not like anyone can really blast you for having Larry over him, but I think when people think honestly , and take the extreme irrational hate for someone they've never even talked to out of the discussion , they'll see Kobe's had the better career and was the better two-way player. Despite the myths ISH or the internet in general try to make up about Kobe's D.

Lebron's D is more overrated than Kobe's. People see one block from the guy and all of a sudden he deserves DPOY. Say what you want about Kobe/Laker fans, but we never pretended the guy was some Defensive specialist.


Better 2 way player how? Steals? No. Rebounds? No. What is your criteria?
Was either a lock down defender? No. I would just like to know your parameters cause I don't think you have any. Bird was just as likely to make a defensive play to win a game as an offensive play.

[HOoopCityJones]

Better 2 way player how? Steals? No. Rebounds? No. What is your criteria?
Was either a lock down defender? No. I would just like to know your parameters cause I don't think you have any. Bird was just as likely to make a defensive play to win a game as an offensive play.

Like I said, I get it. You wont lose with either imo, but I give the edge to Kobe for playing at a high level for longer.

[LeBird]

The Duncan argument over Bird: his back didn't break, so he played a few more years.

Good one.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Why do people always discount championships? This isn't even a Kobe thing. It's like, unless a guy wins MVP and/or FMVP his contributions to a championship team don't matter.

[KevinNYC]

How is Larry considerd the #1 in 3 titles when he only has 2 FMVP's???
Because Bird was easily the best player all year long and throughout the playoffs and the real finals was the ECF against Philadelphia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJMF8R2QB28)

For the whole playoff run Bird put up

22 ppg
14 rpg
6 apg
2 spg
1 bpg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1981.html

The only players ever to do that over at least a 12 game playoff run are a prime Wilt in 67 and 68 and Bird in 1981. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=Y&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=21&c2stat=g&c2comp=gt&c2val=12&c3stat=trb_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=14&c4stat=ast_per_g&c4comp=gt&c4val=6&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_g)

Check out Wilt's near triple double run in 67

[Roundball_Rock]

Why do people always discount championships? This isn't even a Kobe thing. It's like, unless a guy wins MVP and/or FMVP his contributions to a championship team don't matter.

Yeah--even when "sidekicks" posted lines better than many FMVP winners. Pippen nearly averaged a triple double in half his Finals (21/9/8, 21/8/8, 21/9/7) and had a line of 19/8/6/2/1 for his career Finals average yet people give some FMVP's more credit for lesser or equal production. :roll:

[nzahir]

Never won 3 consecutive titles... tho
Its a team sport...tho
If you are going by who is a better player mvps are as, if not more important than rings after 1 or 2 rings it doesnt really matter.

[Hands of Iron]

Bird was wildly inconsistent and seemingly not ready for the pressure.

Gotta love his Game 7's during his best years though (1984-88): 5-0

32.2 PPG - 9.4 RPG - 7.2 APG - 50.5% FG

[DMAVS41]

this guy...

God...shut up.

Stop acting like ranking Bird over Kobe is some crazy position.

Bird, at his best, was better than Kobe....it would be longevity that puts Kobe over the top.

Kobe is a fringe top 10 player of all time. I'm sorry if you don't like that. And his individual dominance/play is not what you think it was...he gets a huge legacy boost by 5 titles...

[Soundwave]

Longevity puts Kobe over Bird, though I don't really have much of a doubt that prime Bird team could beat a prime Kobe team given equal talent on both sides.

If Bird hadn't gotten hurt and/or won a 4th or 5th title, then it's a very different discussion.

[AlphaWolf24]

God...shut up.

Stop acting like ranking Bird over Kobe is some crazy position.

Bird, at his best, was better than Kobe....it would be longevity that puts Kobe over the top.

Kobe is a fringe top 10 player of all time. I'm sorry if you don't like that. And his individual dominance/play is not what you think it was...he gets a huge legacy boost by 5 titles...


this fool...:lol

[Pointguard]

Gotta love his Game 7's during his best years though (1984-88): 5-0

32.2 PPG - 9.4 RPG - 7.2 APG - 50.5% FG
Yes between '84 and '88 he was one of the greatest examples of smarts, skill, mental approach, going clutch crazy and offensive versatility... without doubt.

[AlphaWolf24]

Because Bird was easily the best player all year long and throughout the playoffs and the real finals was the ECF against Philadelphia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJMF8R2QB28)

For the whole playoff run Bird put up

22 ppg
14 rpg
6 apg
2 spg
1 bpg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1981.html

The only players ever to do that over at least a 12 game playoff run are a prime Wilt in 67 and 68 and Bird in 1981. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=Y&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=21&c2stat=g&c2comp=gt&c2val=12&c3stat=trb_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=14&c4stat=ast_per_g&c4comp=gt&c4val=6&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_g)

Check out Wilt's near triple double run in 67


OK great....now respond to the guy who said Kobe doesn't get credit for 2001 because he didn't get FMVP...

even though he was the real FMVP in the real Championship vs the Spurs.

Not only that he was widely regarded as the most dangerous weapon in the NBA/ best all around player that season.

The only reason I posted that was to show that BBALL Illiterate his criteria was bunk....he didn't even know Bird had 2 FMVP's.

[SexSymbol]

God...shut up.

Stop acting like ranking Bird over Kobe is some crazy position.

Bird, at his best, was better than Kobe....it would be longevity that puts Kobe over the top.

Kobe is a fringe top 10 player of all time. I'm sorry if you don't like that. And his individual dominance/play is not what you think it was..he gets a huge legacy boost by 5 titles...
well no shit, sherlock

[navy]

Im sorry but Bird is overrated. Stacked supporting cast, multiple chokes swept under the rug, questionable longevity.

I dont have a problem with people putting him high or low, but you got to be consistent with your criteria.

[SexSymbol]

Im sorry but Bird is overrated. Stacked supporting cast, multiple chokes swept under the rug, questionable longevity.

I dont have a problem with people putting him high or low, but you got to be consistent with your criteria.
I wonder who does that sound like

[navy]

I wonder who does that sound like

Probably every player in the top 10 .

You guys are just arent consistent with your rankings and people pick and chose what to value for different players on the same list based on personal player preference.

[Hands of Iron]

It's pretty alarming that Boston could go from 29-53 to 61-21 in Bird's first season regardless of any other circumstances. Or 57-25 in '88 to a sub-.500 club 42-40 the following year when he was out basically the entire season with prime ending injuries despite being 'oh so stacked'. You're really just playing yourself if you don't believe Bird was the single biggest factor in both of these instances. His impact was immense.

[TheBigVeto]

Bird didn't get carried to his rings unlike Kobe who got carried by Shaq and Gasol. Bird wins easy.

Duncan has a stronger case against Bird compared to Kobe, but then again Bird never teamed up with the 2nd GOAT in anything (Duncan has Manu). So Bird wins. Barely.

Kobe isn't top 10 GOAT basketball players. Hell, he's not even top 100 GOAT basketball players.

[G-train]

Completely different players, from different eras, playing with different rules, against different players, in a different league.
IMPOSSIBLE to compare intellectually.

[G-train]

Im sorry but Bird is overrated. Stacked supporting cast, multiple chokes swept under the rug, questionable longevity.

I dont have a problem with people putting him high or low, but you got to be consistent with your criteria.

Bird isn't overrated, he is underrated.
As is Kobe, and Duncan will be too in a couple of years.

[G-train]

Why do people always discount championships? This isn't even a Kobe thing. It's like, unless a guy wins MVP and/or FMVP his contributions to a championship team don't matter.

Championships mean jack crap.
Barkley and Malone are as good as it gets at the 4 spot, and have no rings.
Organisations win championships, individual players are just a part.

[G-train]

-Duncan led the Spurs to four championships (the fifth was an incredible team effort),

Every championship ever won in the NBA is an incredible team effort.

[Hands of Iron]

It's not as if Larry Bird was the greatest playoff performer of all-time. He had plenty of below par games and even series. That isn't being swept under the rug IMO though it's worth noting that despite his absolutely phenomenal '88 season, he was ailing in the playoffs. Pretty bad. On top of already having gone through four consecutive deep Finals runs into June. Despite having a great cast, there was the level of opposition to match it and Bird couldn't just merely play decent and expect to win titles, particularly in the mid-1980s when Boston was having their dynastic run under K.C. Jones and the two years they won, he was putting up 28/11/6 on 52% FG/61% TS and 26/9/8 on 52% FG/62% TS throughout the postseason.

Some of his defining moments of greatness I think came after he'd already sewn up the bulk of what is his legacy today - having already won 3 titles, 3 MVP's and 2 Finals MVP's - against the emerging Pistons in the 1987 Eastern Conference Finals. Detroit was already on the cusp at that point and Boston was in the midst of a fourth consecutive run to the Finals and had come off a grueling seven-game series already just before against Milwaukee. With the series tied at 2-2 and Bird being held to under 20 points three times up to that point...

Game 5: 36 points, 12 boards, 9 dimes on 12/25 (48%) while playing 47 minutes and closes it with this:

http://youtu.be/H_RJ5XN8TK8

Game 6, Bird drops 35 with 9 boards on 14/20 (70%) from the field while playing 47 minutes in a valiant losing effort on the road.

Game 7, Bird again shows up at an all-time level and delivers 37 points, 9 boards and 9 assists on 13/24 (54%) playing the entire 48 minutes to seal the deal and send his team into a fourth consecutive Finals. Legendary.

[tontoz]

Bird's career was pretty short. He was an old rookie and back problems ended his career early. I loved his game but no way could i put him over Duncan.