Lebron vs. Magic

[dc_chilling]

Many people here have Magic in their top 5 and Lebron out of their top 10.

How is Magic a better basketball player than Lebron?

Lebron is a much better scorer, an infinitely better defender, more efficent, a better rebounder, a better finisher, more durable, way better from 3, and is on a completely different level as an athlete.

Even Magics best quality, passing, is one of Lebrons strengths. I'm not saying he passes like Magic, but he is in the conversation with Bird for the best passing SF in history.

Outside of stupid shit that can't be measured like "killer will" or "leadership", I'm interested in hearing arguments for why Magic should be ranked over Lebron in anyones list.

People often knock Kobe for having Shaq and argue that he shouldn't be in the top 10 because of it. Well, KAJ is a GOAT candidate and those showtime teams were among the most stacked in history. Yet, for some reason Magic is in everyones top 5.

Doesn't really add up.:confusedshrug:

[red1]

I have zero doubt that he will rank higher than magic when it is all said and done

[dc_chilling]

I have zero doubt that he will rank higher than magic when it is all said and done

I agree.

But I guess what I'm wondering is why is he not ranked above him now?

He is clearly the superior player. By a landslide.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Lebron is better basketball wise worse accomplishment wise

[russwest0]

if i want to win a championship: magic
if i want to win regular season MVP: lebron :applause:

[dc_chilling]

Lebron is better basketball wise worse accomplishment wise

Then people shouldn't call their rankings the top 10 basketball players. They should call it the 10 most acomplished basketball players, with Russell at the top of it.

[Kvnzhangyay]

if i want to win a championship: magic
if i want to win regular season MVP: lebron :applause:

And why would that be?

I actually see it the other way around

[AintNoSunshine]

Many people here have Magic in their top 5 and Lebron out of their top 10.

How is Magic a better basketball player than Lebron?

Lebron is a much better scorer, an infinitely better defender, more efficent, a better rebounder, a better finisher, more durable, way better from 3, and is on a completely different level as an athlete.

Even Magics best quality, passing, is one of Lebrons strengths. I'm not saying he passes like Magic, but he is in the conversation with Bird for the best passing SF in history.

Outside of stupid shit that can't be measured like "killer will" or "leadership", I'm interested in hearing arguments for why Magic should be ranked over Lebron in anyones list.

People often knock Kobe for having Shaq and argue that he shouldn't be in the top 10 because of it. Well, KAJ is a GOAT candidate and those showtime teams were among the most stacked in history. Yet, for some reason Magic is in everyones top 5.

Doesn't really add up.:confusedshrug:


Intangibles are highly important though.

[red1]

And why would that be?

I actually see it the other way around
he is a goatf*cker. them folks are not exactly known for their intelligence :lol

[dc_chilling]

if i want to win a championship: magic
if i want to win regular season MVP: lebron :applause:

That isn't an argument.

It also isn't correct.

[dc_chilling]

Intangibles are highly important though.

I agree, but any player who wins multiple rings as "the man" has intangibles.

I'm talking strictly about comparing two players and what they can do on a basketball court.

[russwest0]

That isn't an argument.

It also isn't correct.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Psileas]

Many people here have Magic in their top 5 and Lebron out of their top 10.

I, for one, have LeBron in my top-10, so he's pretty close to Magic.


How is Magic a better basketball player than Lebron?

Lebron is a much better scorer, an infinitely better defender, more efficent, a better rebounder, a better finisher, more durable, way better from 3, and is on a completely different level as an athlete.

Even Magics best quality, passing, is one of Lebrons strengths. I'm not saying he passes like Magic, but he is in the conversation with Bird for the best passing SF in history.

Someone can argue that Magic is at least as good an offensive player, if not better. The same way LeBron is among the best passing SF's ever, Magic was among the best scoring PG's ever. Actually, I can only see Oscar as a career better scorer among PG's. People don't realize that Magic, like many of his Lakers teammates, was a better scorer than his numbers show. Much like today's Spurs, the Lakers were perennially among the best offensive teams in the NBA, yet, they had whole seasons when not a single player would score 40+ in a game, and that's obviously not an indication that they were full of mediocre scorers. When Magic decided to score as a rookie in the Finals, he got 42, and he had also scored 28 in Finals Game #4, when Kareem's shot was off. He had a stretch averaging like 35 ppg with Kareem missing in '87. Also, Magic wasn't usually getting as much playing time as Lebron, either.

LeBron isn't more efficient, especially if you consider his earlier years, since Magic was a better FT shooter and he wasn't chucking nearly as many 3's as LeBron when he still hadn't developed his long range shot enough. LeBron improved his shot in the last 3 seasons, but before then, he was shooting below the league average (yet, ironically, shot more than now).

That told, I don't know why LeBron's athletic advantage should belong to the criteria that put him over Magic. If anything, many of the teams that managed to limit him weren't known for their athleticism.



Outside of stupid shit that can't be measured like "killer will" or "leadership", I'm interested in hearing arguments for why Magic should be ranked over Lebron in anyones list.

Well, here's the thing: Without certain intangibles, LeBron is statistically in the conversation for GOAT. Without leadership and mental toughness into account, why consider Jordan as better, either? Yet, most fans quickly pick Jordan over LeBron because of this. A main disadvantage that LeBron has (much like Kobe) - and he showed this in his last game, is that he can turn it really on for certain spans, then follow it with a long period of aloofness, with him doing little offensively for several minutes, apart from just passing around. Magic wasn't nearly as often having those short scoring explosions, but he wasn't as likely to be rendered passive for long stretches, either.


People often knock Kobe for having Shaq and argue that he shouldn't be in the top 10 because of it. Well, KAJ is a GOAT candidate and those showtime teams were among the most stacked in history. Yet, for some reason Magic is in everyones top 5.

Doesn't really add up.:confusedshrug:

Kareem wouldn't be a GOAT candidate without his individual dominance in the 70's. IMO, that period played a more significant role for his ranking than his titles.

[Jlamb47]

Mj
Kareem
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Lebron

i got Lebron close to Magic

[dc_chilling]

I, for one, have LeBron in my top-10, so he's pretty close to Magic.



Someone can argue that Magic is at least as good an offensive player, if not better. The same way LeBron is among the best passing SF's ever, Magic was among the best scoring PG's ever. Actually, I can only see Oscar as a career better scorer among PG's. People don't realize that Magic, like many of his Lakers teammates, was a better scorer than his numbers show. Much like today's Spurs, the Lakers were perennially among the best offensive teams in the NBA, yet, they had whole seasons when not a single player would score 40+ in a game, and that's obviously not an indication that they were full of mediocre scorers. When Magic decided to score as a rookie in the Finals, he got 42, and he had also scored 28 in Finals Game #4, when Kareem's shot was off. He had a stretch averaging like 35 ppg with Kareem missing in '87. Also, Magic wasn't usually getting as much playing time as Lebron, either.

LeBron isn't more efficient, especially if you consider his earlier years, since Magic was a better FT shooter and he wasn't chucking nearly as many 3's as LeBron when he still hadn't developed his long range shot enough. LeBron improved his shot in the last 3 seasons, but before then, he was shooting below the league average (yet, ironically, shot more than now).

That told, I don't know why LeBron's athletic advantage should belong to the criteria that put him over Magic. If anything, many of the teams that managed to limit him weren't known for their athleticism.




Well, here's the thing: Without certain intangibles, LeBron is statistically in the conversation for GOAT. Without leadership and mental toughness into account, why consider Jordan as better, either? Yet, most fans quickly pick Jordan over LeBron because of this. A main disadvantage that LeBron has (much like Kobe) - and he showed this in his last game, is that he can turn it really on for certain spans, then follow it with a long period of aloofness, with him doing little offensively for several minutes, apart from just passing around. Magic wasn't nearly as often having those short scoring explosions, but he wasn't as likely to be rendered passive for long stretches, either.



Kareem wouldn't be a GOAT candidate without his individual dominance in the 70's. IMO, that period played a more significant role for his ranking than his titles.

I appreciate your thoughtful analysis. We disagree, but you made some strong points.

Even if you argue that Magic is as good as Lebron on offense (I don't agree but for the sake of argument), there is no question that Lebron is a much better defender than Magic. Since half the game is played on the defensive end, he should get the nod on that premise alone.

One point I did want to touch on though. Lebron's athletic advantage surely comes into play when grading players. It is a major reason why he is as dominant as he is.

Honestly, Lebron has a much easier time guarding Magic than Magic does Lebron.

[COnDEMnED]

Many people here have Magic in their top 5 and Lebron out of their top 10.

How is Magic a better basketball player than Lebron?

Lebron is a much better scorer, an infinitely better defender, more efficent, a better rebounder, a better finisher, more durable, way better from 3, and is on a completely different level as an athlete.

Even Magics best quality, passing, is one of Lebrons strengths. I'm not saying he passes like Magic, but he is in the conversation with Bird for the best passing SF in history.

Outside of stupid shit that can't be measured like "killer will" or "leadership", I'm interested in hearing arguments for why Magic should be ranked over Lebron in anyones list.

People often knock Kobe for having Shaq and argue that he shouldn't be in the top 10 because of it. Well, KAJ is a GOAT candidate and those showtime teams were among the most stacked in history. Yet, for some reason Magic is in everyones top 5.

Doesn't really add up.:confusedshrug:
Perhaps it's because his career was cut short. Who knows what could have happened. Maybe top 3 wasn't out of the question. :confusedshrug:

[Marchesk]

Then people shouldn't call their rankings the top 10 basketball players. They should call it the 10 most acomplished basketball players, with Russell at the top of it.

Stats and accolades also factor into it. Most people don't put Russell at the top because he wasn't a great scorer (unlike Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor in his era), and he had a stacked roster.

But really, if we're gong by accomplishments, Mikan has a case.

[NZStreetBaller]

One on one of course lebron would beat magic.
but that doesnt necessarily make lebron better.
The two things you often hear about these two are all round (can play any postion) and "makes their team mates better" Magic Johnson wins this by a LANDSLIDE. he basically orchestrated his team to championships with his leader ship and his passing (GOAT passer in my books btw) he was a massive dude who played point guard. and at a very young age played Center which brings up the "all rounder in him" and dominated that game and won (stepping up to the plate in a high pressure situation)

[wakencdukest]

Many people here have Magic in their top 5 and Lebron out of their top 10.

How is Magic a better basketball player than Lebron?

Lebron is a much better scorer, an infinitely better defender, more efficent, a better rebounder, a better finisher, more durable, way better from 3, and is on a completely different level as an athlete.

Even Magics best quality, passing, is one of Lebrons strengths. I'm not saying he passes like Magic, but he is in the conversation with Bird for the best passing SF in history.

Outside of stupid shit that can't be measured like "killer will" or "leadership", I'm interested in hearing arguments for why Magic should be ranked over Lebron in anyones list.

People often knock Kobe for having Shaq and argue that he shouldn't be in the top 10 because of it. Well, KAJ is a GOAT candidate and those showtime teams were among the most stacked in history. Yet, for some reason Magic is in everyones top 5.

Doesn't really add up.:confusedshrug:




LeBron is not a better rebounder or finisher, and is not more efficient. Check your stats dude, Magic averaged more rebounds, assists, steals, shot a higher percentage from the field and the free throw line.

[GimmeThat]

because people are still waiting to see Lebron putting up great finals numbers in order to put him ahead of Magic.


there ARE Lakers fan/people who already put Kobe ahead of Magic because of his last 2 championships.

maybe it's because no one expected him to win another 1 or 2, maybe it's because no one expected him to win with Pau.

but those banners are hanging.



word

[dc_chilling]

LeBron is not a better rebounder or finisher, and is not more efficient. Check your stats dude, Magic averaged more rebounds, assists, steals, shot a higher percentage from the field and the free throw line.

They average the same amount of rebounds for their careers, but adjusting for pace, it's safe to say Lebron is a little better.

Lebrons past two seasons are better from the field than any of Magics seasons, despite shooting way more threes. Lebron shoots 2's better and 3's better.

You are right about the assists and ft%. Although, I gave Magic credit for being the better passer.

I'll give him steals too. Although pace and handchecking help his cause tremendously.

[Rose'sACL]

lebron has been a way better defender than magic since 2007-08.
Lebron is a way better scorer than magic.
Magic Career: 19.2 PPG ,11.2 APM, 7.2RPG
on 52%FG,30.2% 3P% on 1.2 attempts per game

LeBron Career: 27.5ppg , 6.9 APG, 7.2RPG
on 49.7%FG, 34.1% 3P% on 4 attempts per game.

even if you consider it close going by offensive stats, lebron even on his bad days is a better defender than magic. Even in his so called bad defensive series in 2014 finals, he shut down manu and parker whenever he was on them.
Stats per 100 possessions makes the gap even larger given that magic played a more fast paced game.

[Iceman#44]

Magic could have been a 22-25 ppg scorer for his career easily

[Rose'sACL]

Magic could have been a 22-25 ppg scorer for his career easily
lebron could have been 32 ppg scorer for his career easily.

[Iceman#44]

CAREER STATS

MAGIC: 19.5 PPG, 7.2 RBS, 11.2 AST, .520 fg%, .303 3P%, .848 FT%
LEBRON: 27.5 PPG, 7.2 RBS, 6.9 AST, .497 FG%, .341 3P%, .747 FT%


iT'S crazy that Magic out-shoot .848 to .747 LBJ from the FT line:biggums:

[Iceman#44]

lebron could have been 32 ppg scorer for his career easily.

:biggums:

32 ppg career AVERAGE? Are you serious Bro? You know that the NBA Record for Career Average is 30.1 right? :facepalm :facepalm

[Rose'sACL]

:biggums:

32 ppg career AVERAGE? Are you serious Bro? You know that the NBA Record for Career Average is 30.1 right? :facepalm :facepalm
you increase magic's average and i increase lebron's. I have never made a thread or comment about lebron could score "this much" if he tried, neither should you.
facts are there for you to use. Stop using ifs and buts because those favor lebron too. What if he didn't get drafted by cavs and got drafted by a classy organization like lakers who could hire pat riley? May be he would be a better player but you don't see me making those statements so just use the actual stats instead of using ifs and buts.

[Sarcastic]

I appreciate your thoughtful analysis. We disagree, but you made some strong points.

Even if you argue that Magic is as good as Lebron on offense (I don't agree but for the sake of argument), there is no question that Lebron is a much better defender than Magic. Since half the game is played on the defensive end, he should get the nod on that premise alone.

One point I did want to touch on though. Lebron's athletic advantage surely comes into play when grading players. It is a major reason why he is as dominant as he is.

Honestly, Lebron has a much easier time guarding Magic than Magic does Lebron.



How the hell would you know this? Did you make a time machine? Magic was a tough matchup for anyone that ever guarded him. There is a myth floating around that somehow Pippen shut him down in the 1991 finals. He put up 18/8/12 in that series. If that is him being "shut down", imagine what he would have done without being "shut down".

[dc_chilling]

How the hell would you know this? Did you make a time machine? Magic was a tough matchup for anyone that ever guarded him. There is a myth floating around that somehow Pippen shut him down in the 1991 finals. He put up 18/8/12 in that series. If that is him being "shut down", imagine what he would have done without being "shut down".

I know this because one player is a 260 pound super athlete that prides himself on defense. The other player is listed at 220 pounds and is an average athlete with below average defense.

It's common sense. :banghead:

[Rose'sACL]

I know this because one player is a 260 pound super athlete that prides himself on defense. The other player is listed at 220 pounds and is an average athlete with below average defense.

It's common sense. :banghead:
the problem is that magic would never have to guard lebron as lakers tried to hide him on defense.
Lebron would be guarding magic though. i hear all this talk about how magic would play SF for the current team if he was to replace him but that is pure BS. He would run PG all the time. He was not capable of guarding players KD, Melo, PG or any good fast player who can go to the rim or fck him in the post. He would always be put on the worst wing offensive player on the other team.
Pistons game plan was to expose magic's defense in the finals and they succeeded in it. What more do you have to know about magic's defense? good defenders have some bad series but no good defender is though of like pistons thought about magic.

[Iceman#44]

you increase magic's average and i increase lebron's. I have never made a thread or comment about lebron could score "this much" if he tried, neither should you.
facts are there for you to use. Stop using ifs and buts because those favor lebron too. What if he didn't get drafted by cavs and got drafted by a classy organization like lakers who could hire pat riley? May be he would be a better player but you don't see me making those statements so just use the actual stats instead of using ifs and buts.

Well then

First of all, i say that Magic could have been easily a 22-25 ppg scorer for his career. FYI, Johnson actually scored 23.9 ppg in 1986-87 season, 22.5 ppg in 1988-89 and 22.3 in 1989-90.
So, as you can see, Magic was 3 times during his 12 years career into the 22-25 ppg range.
And that's always during Kareem last years, when Magic was ASKED to play a bigger role on offense (more points).

You say that LBJ could have been a 32 ppg scorer for his career, and thats stupid. He NEVER scored 32.0 in a single season in 11 years, his best was 31.0 in Cleveland and he reached the 30.0 plateau just 2 times. We are talking about facts here.

Also. Like someone before me has said, when asked Magic always showed that he could have scored much more.
During the 1986-1987 season for example, Jabbar missed 3 consecutive games in December.
On December 20, 1986 @Dallas, Magic scored 34 points with 7 boards and 15 assist.
December 21, 1986 @ Houston, Magic scored 38 with 8 boards and 16 ast.
December 23, 1986 @ Sacramento, Magic scored 46 with 10 boards and 9 ast (OT game).

You do the math.

MAGIC STATS during 3 consecutive games without Jabbar:
39.3 ppg, 8.3 reb, 13.3 ast :biggums: :biggums:

[wakencdukest]

They average the same amount of rebounds for their careers, but adjusting for pace, it's safe to say Lebron is a little better.

Lebrons past two seasons are better from the field than any of Magics seasons, despite shooting way more threes. Lebron shoots 2's better and 3's better.

You are right about the assists and ft%. Although, I gave Magic credit for being the better passer.

I'll give him steals too. Although pace and handchecking help his cause tremendously.



Ok, I'm not a stats nerd but I feel the need to use them when you are not being objective. You are obviously biased and never saw magic play. LeBrons two best years he shot .565 and .567. Magics two best years he shot .565 and .561. LeBrons got a long way to go until he catches up to Magics shooting percentage. You can't just pick and choose what you want to put into your argument.

[The Macho Man]

dribble dribble drive and kick doesn't make you on the same level of passing as bird it just gets you a lot of assists

[DMAVS41]

It's close...and in some ways the comparison is unfair because Lebron would thrive playing on loaded teams like Magic had that were a good fit in the sense that everyone could play a proper role....while, if we are really fair, Wade has been and never was a good fit next to Lebron on offense...it's been the defense that made it work, but obviously that fell off dramatically the last 2 years

Having said that though...lets be real for a minute. Magic is getting a bit under-rated here. He was the best game manager I've ever seen. He controlled games from the jump. He got the most out of his teammates and was a truly legendary leader/teammate.

He made 9 finals and won 5 rings.

He had a 12 year career (not counting 96) in which he averaged 20/7/13 60% TS in the playoffs and has the highest offensive rating in NBA playoff history at 122.

I currently have Magic 4th and Lebron 10th. Lebron will no doubt move way up over the next 8 years assuming no drastic injuries or declines....and ultimately it will be really close.

For now though...I think Magic has earned that top 5 spot...while I don't think Lebron has.

It's hard to explain to people that didn't see Magic play, but let me put it this way.

If someone asked me if I wanted rookie Magic or 4th year Lebron (2007 Lebron)...I take rookie Magic and it's not close. So lets not ignore stuff like that. Magic came in and was better from the jump than Lebron was honestly through his first 4 or 5 years....

[dc_chilling]

Ok, I'm not a stats nerd but I feel the need to use them when you are not being objective. You are obviously biased and never saw magic play. LeBrons two best years he shot .565 and .567. Magics two best years he shot .565 and .561. LeBrons got a long way to go until he catches up to Magics shooting percentage. You can't just pick and choose what you want to put into your argument.

Dude, go back and watch Magic play. That nostalgia bs doesn't work.

You can watch full Magic games on Youtube.

You can remember back to the good ole' days if you want. I'm telling you what I just rewatched last night.

You can say Lebron has a long way to go before he catches Magics shooting percentages if you want, but you can't argue with the fact that Lebron shot better from the field last season than Magic ever has. Add in the fact that Magic took almost no threes in his .565 season, and there isn't really an argument. If Lebron took as few threes as Magic he would have shot 62% last season from the field.

[DMAVS41]

Dude, go back and watch Magic play. That nostalgia bs doesn't work.

You can watch full Magic games on Youtube.

You can remember back to the good ole' days if you want. I'm telling you what I just rewatched last night.

You can say Lebron has a long way to go before he catches Magics shooting percentages if you want, but you can't argue with the fact that Lebron shot better from the field last season than Magic ever has. Add in the fact that Magic took almost no threes in his .565 season, and there isn't really an argument. If Lebron took as few threes as Magic he would have shot 62% last season from the field.

So what?

Magic's overall efficiency is actually slightly better than Lebron's in the regular season and playoffs.

Lebron has also played like 3 to 4 minutes per game more than Magic did in both the regular season and playoffs.

[Rose'sACL]

Well then

First of all, i say that Magic could have been easily a 22-25 ppg scorer for his career. FYI, Johnson actually scored 23.9 ppg in 1986-87 season, 22.5 ppg in 1988-89 and 22.3 in 1989-90.
So, as you can see, Magic was 3 times during his 12 years career into the 22-25 ppg range.
And that's always during Kareem last years, when Magic was ASKED to play a bigger role on offense (more points).

You say that LBJ could have been a 32 ppg scorer for his career, and thats stupid. He NEVER scored 32.0 in a single season in 11 years, his best was 31.0 in Cleveland and he reached the 30.0 plateau just 2 times. We are talking about facts here.

Also. Like someone before me has said, when asked Magic always showed that he could have scored much more.
During the 1986-1987 season for example, Jabbar missed 3 consecutive games in December.
On December 20, 1986 @Dallas, Magic scored 34 points with 7 boards and 15 assist.
December 21, 1986 @ Houston, Magic scored 38 with 8 boards and 16 ast.
December 23, 1986 @ Sacramento, Magic scored 46 with 10 boards and 9 ast (OT game).

You do the math.

MAGIC STATS during 3 consecutive games without Jabbar:
39.3 ppg, 8.3 reb, 13.3 ast :biggums: :biggums:
lebron averaged 38-8-8 in 6 games in playoffs. that doesn't mean much. You don't get sarcasm.
Magic's best season(86-87): 23.9PPG on 60.2TS%(to include 3 point shooting) , 12.2 APG, 6.3 RPG
Lebron's best year(2009-10): 29.7PPG on 60.4TS%, 8.6 APG, 7.3RPG
Should i make posts saying that lebron should be a 30PPG scorer but he doesn't try for some reason that only the poster iceman#44 knows about.
Lebron has had stats drop after joining heat but he still scores over 27 a game.
These are all stats with no regard for pace on which lakers played at in an already fast paced league compared to post 90s league.

[Rose'sACL]

So what?

Magic's overall efficiency is actually slightly better than Lebron's in the regular season and playoffs.

Lebron has also played like 3 to 4 minutes per game more than Magic did in both the regular season and playoffs.
the point he is trying to make is that lebron will probably end up with better TS% than magic by the time he retires while averaging 6-7.5PPG better by the time he retires while also playing for a longer time which should count as a positive for him.
Magic is slightly ahead in TS% right now. Give the trend, no one would bet against lebron having better TS% by end of his career.

[plowking]

How the hell would you know this? Did you make a time machine? Magic was a tough matchup for anyone that ever guarded him. There is a myth floating around that somehow Pippen shut him down in the 1991 finals. He put up 18/8/12 in that series. If that is him being "shut down", imagine what he would have done without being "shut down".

Empty stats. His team lost. Shut down.


That's how it works right? Any time you lose, empty stats.

[DMAVS41]

the point he is trying to make is that lebron will probably end up with better TS% than magic by the time he retires while averaging 6-7.5PPG better by the time he retires while also playing for a longer time which should count as a positive for him.
Magic is slightly ahead in TS% right now. Give the trend, no one would bet against lebron having better TS% by end of his career.

And when that happens...great.

Lebron is a better scorer than Magic. Is anyone really debating that?

[dc_chilling]

So what?

Magic's overall efficiency is actually slightly better than Lebron's in the regular season and playoffs.

Using what metric?

Magic highest PER ever was 27. Lebron has had 8 seasons above 27 PER.

Lebron's TS%, EFG%, and FG% are higher over the last couple years than anything Magic has done.

Magics highest winshares is 16.5. Lebron has topped that 3 times, including a crazy 20.3 WS in 2009.

I don't see an argument for how any version of Magic is more efficent than this version of Lebron.

[DMAVS41]

Using what metric?

Magic highest PER ever was 27. Lebron has had 8 seasons above 27 PER.

Lebron's TS%, EFG%, and FG% are higher over the last couple years than anything Magic has done.

Magics highest winshares is 16.5. Lebron has topped that 3 times, including a crazy 20.3 WS in 2009.

I don't see an argument for how any version of Magic is more efficent than this version of Lebron.

I was solely talking about TS%...overall efficiency.

[dc_chilling]

I was solely talking about TS%...overall efficiency.

Lol. There are plenty of stats to measure efficency.

Either way, as I said, Magic never had a more efficent season than either of the last two season Lebron just had using your metric.

Let me ask you something.

What does Magic do better than Lebron besides passing?

[DMAVS41]

Lol. There are plenty of stats to measure efficency.

Either way, as I said, Magic never had a more efficent season than either of the last two season Lebron just had using your metric.

Let me ask you something.

What does Magic do better than Lebron besides passing?

He manages the game better and gets more out of his teammates. And those things really matter. If you looked at a player like Hakeem vs Magic...you could make a lot of these same arguments, but guess what...Magic was a better player than Hakeem.

Again...rookie Magic was a better player than 4th year Lebron...perhaps 5th year lebron as well. I can't ignore that.

When people talk about scoring efficiency...it's usually about TS%...fyi.

[Iceman#44]

lebron averaged 38-8-8 in 6 games in playoffs. that doesn't mean much. You don't get sarcasm.
Magic's best season(86-87): 23.9PPG on 60.2TS%(to include 3 point shooting) , 12.2 APG, 6.3 RPG
Lebron's best year(2009-10): 29.7PPG on 60.4TS%, 8.6 APG, 7.3RPG
Should i make posts saying that lebron should be a 30PPG scorer but he doesn't try for some reason that only the poster iceman#44 knows about.
Lebron has had stats drop after joining heat but he still scores over 27 a game.
These are all stats with no regard for pace on which lakers played at in an already fast paced league compared to post 90s league.


Bro, im just trying to show you that Magic showed during his career that he could carry the offense with 25-30 ppg if his team need his points.
When Jabbar was injured/old, etc
But, you know,he was a PLAYMAKER. One of those player who can dominate a game WITHOUT Scoring/Shooting at all.

[Rose'sACL]

dribble dribble drive and kick doesn't make you on the same level of passing as bird it just gets you a lot of assists
bird didn't have the athleticism to make these kind of passes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OKKNFPeKGU
He made what he could and lebron makes what he can. Lebron's assists result in more open 3s which is even better. Driving and dishing is not easy when you have 3 really tall guys near you. you have to adjust as you just can't decide where to pass before driving.

[plowking]

If you looked at a player like Hakeem vs Magic...you could make a lot of these same arguments, but guess what...Magic was a better player than Hakeem.

:oldlol:

No he wasn't.


Again...rookie Magic was a better player than 4th year Lebron...perhaps 5th year lebron as well. I can't ignore that.


:oldlol:

No he wasn't.


When looking at level of play, Magic has one of the worst peaks out of the whole top 10.

Jordan was better.
Bird was better.
Wilt was better.
Kareem was better.
Shaq was better.
Lebron was better.
Hakeem was better.
Duncan was better.
Kobe was better.
Russell is arguable, but probably better.

[wakencdukest]

Dude, go back and watch Magic play. That nostalgia bs doesn't work.

You can watch full Magic games on Youtube.

You can remember back to the good ole' days if you want. I'm telling you what I just rewatched last night.

You can say Lebron has a long way to go before he catches Magics shooting percentages if you want, but you can't argue with the fact that Lebron shot better from the field last season than Magic ever has. Add in the fact that Magic took almost no threes in his .565 season, and there isn't really an argument. If Lebron took as few threes as Magic he would have shot 62% last season from the field.


I like LeBron, but you're making false statements about Bron being a better rebounder an being more efficient. You're saying what if, using two seasons to make your argument. You're using hypotheticals for LeBron, but not for Magic. Just call it fairly. I'll admit LeBron iis better defensively and is a better scorer, but you haven't conviced me on any of your other points.

[dc_chilling]

He manages the game better and gets more out of his teammates. And those things really matter. If you looked at a player like Hakeem vs Magic...you could make a lot of these same arguments, but guess what...Magic was a better player than Hakeem.

Again...rookie Magic was a better player than 4th year Lebron...perhaps 5th year lebron as well. I can't ignore that.

When people talk about scoring efficiency...it's usually about TS%...fyi.

You said overall efficency.

And no, rookie Magic wasn't a better player than 4th year Lebron. Hell, he wasn't even better than Lebron was at the same age as Magic was as a rookie.

Rookie Magic (20 Years Old): 18 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 7.3 apg
Lebron's 2nd year (20 Years Old): 27.2 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 7.2 apg

What Magic did in the playoffs was awesome. I'm not discrediting that. But, without seeing a 20 year old Lebron in the same situation, it isn't worth much. They were drafted into completely different situations.

Getting more out of your teammates is a weak argument as well. Magic had the most loaded team in history. You saw what Lebron did with a team even less loaded than Magics. He made the finals every year and won two chips already.

So essentially, your argument boils down to one thing. He manages the game better.

[GimmeThat]

I think I thought Lebron could be better than Magic
because he was capable of putting up 30+ a game in the playoff.

Magic is a Point Guard, which means his passing ability combined with his scoring ability, by its advance measure (meaning continuous repeating this process to keep your opponent guessing until your efficiency just blows up) puts him at a place very special statistically. as well as the fact that he's been able to win a few championship playing this way.

I'd like to think that Lebron's full court passing ability is right up there, probably not his half court passing ability in comparison to Magic. I'm not saying he can't put up Magic like stats, but it would involve a very special group of player, and quite honestly, Bosh is a pretty unique PF in terms of his offensive skillset, it just didn't work.

Lebron is a SF. And that is why I think if he can put up 30PPG plus 8RPG with 5 or 6 assists, at his efficiecny rating, that's right up against Magic/Bird.

I don't care if people say he won't shoot as many 3 as bird, not as good as a shooter etc, nor a passer.

The fact is that if he focuses on becoming just a 30/8/6.


He might put a few DPOY onto his resume.

[dc_chilling]

I like LeBron, but you're making false statements about Bron being a better rebounder an being more efficient. You're saying what if, using two seasons to make your argument. You're using hypotheticals for LeBron, but not for Magic. Just call it fairly. I'll admit LeBron iis better defensively and is a better scorer, but you haven't conviced me on any of your other points.

How is it a hypothetical if it happened?

The fact is, by any metric imaginable, Lebron has been more efficent than any version of Magic ever was for the past two seasons. Even if the TS% is close, the PER isn't. The win shares aren't.

I'm honestly trying to call it fairly.

Magic was the better passer, but it ends there.

He wasn't the scorer, defender, or athlete Lebron is.

In 5 of Magics 13 seasons he missed 10 or more games. Lebron has 0 such seasons. Magic retired after 12 seasons before coming back for that farwell tour season. Lebron is in his absolute prime moving into his 12th season next year. There is no question he is more durable.

So if a player scores better, defends better, rebounds equally well, is a better athlete, and is more durable; how is he not the better player?

That isn't a knock on Magic. He is a legend.

I just can't give Magic the nod because he passes the ball a little bit better.

[Pointguard]

Magic could play to his strengths much better than Lebron could. While Lebron has a complete game he doesn't always know how to assert himself.

Magic controlled the pace of the game much better than any player. Lebron is often a victim of pace. They play the running game for much of the regular season. But they haven't ran the last two post seasons which causes Lebron ruts in his offensive game. Magic always created a flow so his players could thrive. When was the last time Lebron pushed the pace. Magic always played push the pace and then ran a great half-court game. Magic often set the table where the team could play SA pass along the perimeter ball, fast-break or feed the post game. And he was clearly better at all three than any player you can name (Nash/Paul/Kidd), much less Lebron.

Magic could get more out of his teammates than Lebron could. Magic could feature Kurt Rambis on offense when he wanted to. Any player that was hot stayed hot. Any player that needed to get more involved got more involved because Magic was the best orchestrator ever. Worthy, Kareem, Scott, Green and Cooper all played at higher, and more effective levels with Magic. I'm not blaming Lebron, but his superstars seem lost on offense more often in the post season than on it. How often do you see another player hot for more than one game on Miami.

Magic was also one of the best in play execution. Want to compare them on the pick n role? Magic ran the pick n role better than Stockton on the Olympic team. Magic had impeccable timing.

Magic kept everybody on the same page and where to be on the same page. He was the best orchestrator ever. "We run for Worthy and Green, slow it down for Kareem, and when they get hot, we ride Copper and Scott."

Magic's clear headiness comes into play a whole lot. He took considerably more risk than any player playing now and didn't have a crazy TO count. Lebron has to play conservative in the playoffs because he doesn't make up his mind as quick as Magic did. But nobody has or does.

Magic just had more control of the game and could make space for his teams effectiveness. Magic was a team player. His teams ran incredibly efficient. His team shot 545% one year and 532% the next. Sorry, Lebron at 600% is miniscule in effect. While Lebron might score more his team was frequently caught in scoring ruts. Magic was extroverted but he was the clutch king in his era (yeah young MJ, Bird and Kareem). When Magic shot 565% he was taking a lot of end of quarter half court shots too.

Magic was a total team player so individual points was never his thing. Getting the most out of his team offensively was his task. He could get what he wanted most of the time. Magic controlled his total offense better than any player ever did. Its hard to compare him offensively to players whose teams frequently go into offensive ruts. And when Magic faced teams that played like SA offensively (Celtics, Nuggets), Magic upped the tempo, played the passing lanes and offensively overcame them. Lebron was the better scorer but he has a ways to go to match him offensively. Proof in the pudding, once you double Magic you pay drastically. Lebron will sometimes beat it bad, but most of the time its a jump shot.

I have it close but still clearly Magic.

[dc_chilling]

Magic could play to his strengths much better than Lebron could. While Lebron has a complete game he doesn't always know how to assert himself.

Magic controlled the pace of the game much better than any player. Lebron is often a victim of pace. They play the running game for much of the regular season. But they haven't ran the last two post seasons which causes Lebron ruts in his offensive game. Magic always created a flow so his players could thrive. When was the last time Lebron pushed the pace. Magic always played push the pace and then ran a great half-court game. Magic often set the table where the team could play SA pass along the perimeter ball, fast-break or feed the post game. And he was clearly better at all three than any player you can name (Nash/Paul/Kidd), much less Lebron.

Magic could get more out of his teammates than Lebron could. Magic could feature Kurt Rambis on offense when he wanted to. Any player that was hot stayed hot. Any player that needed to get more involved got more involved because Magic was the best orchestrator ever. Worthy, Kareem, Scott, Green and Cooper all played at higher, and more effective levels with Magic. I'm not blaming Lebron, but his superstars seem lost on offense more often in the post season than on it. How often do you see another player hot for more than one game on Miami.

Magic was also one of the best in play execution. Want to compare them on the pick n role? Magic ran the pick n role better than Stockton on the Olympic team. Magic had impeccable timing.

Magic kept everybody on the same page and where to be on the same page. He was the best orchestrator ever. "We run for Worthy and Green, slow it down for Kareem, and when they get hot, we ride Copper and Scott."

Magic's clear headiness comes into play a whole lot. He took considerably more risk than any player playing now and didn't have a crazy TO count. Lebron has to play conservative in the playoffs because he doesn't make up his mind as quick as Magic did. But nobody has or does.

Magic just had more control of the game and could make space for his teams effectiveness. Magic was a team player. His teams ran incredibly efficient. His team shot 545% one year and 532% the next. Sorry, Lebron at 600% is miniscule in effect. While Lebron might score more his team was frequently caught in scoring ruts. Magic was extroverted but he was the clutch king in his era (yeah young MJ, Bird and Kareem). When Magic shot 565% he was taking a lot of end of quarter half court shots too.

Magic was a total team player so individual points was never his thing. Getting the most out of his team offensively was his task. He could get what he wanted most of the time. Magic controlled his total offense better than any player ever did. Its hard to compare him offensively to players whose teams frequently go into offensive ruts. And when Magic faced teams that played like SA offensively (Celtics, Nuggets), Magic upped the tempo, played the passing lanes and offensively overcame them. Lebron was the better scorer but he has a ways to go to match him offensively. Proof in the pudding, once you double Magic you pay drastically. Lebron will sometimes beat it bad, but most of the time its a jump shot.

I have it close but still clearly Magic.

I agree that Magic was great at running the show. At the same time, he was on an incredibly stacked team so the degree of difficulty was far lower imo than anything Lebron has done with his teams.

If you think Magic is better because he controlled the tempo of the game better, that's cool.

I'll take the guy who is better in practically every facet of the game.

[Hey Yo]

Many people here have Magic in their top 5 and Lebron out of their top 10.

How is Magic a better basketball player than Lebron?

Lebron is a much better scorer, an infinitely better defender, more efficent, a better rebounder, a better finisher, more durable, way better from 3, and is on a completely different level as an athlete.

Even Magics best quality, passing, is one of Lebrons strengths. I'm not saying he passes like Magic, but he is in the conversation with Bird for the best passing SF in history.

Outside of stupid shit that can't be measured like "killer will" or "leadership", I'm interested in hearing arguments for why Magic should be ranked over Lebron in anyones list.

People often knock Kobe for having Shaq and argue that he shouldn't be in the top 10 because of it. Well, KAJ is a GOAT candidate and those showtime teams were among the most stacked in history. Yet, for some reason Magic is in everyones top 5.

Doesn't really add up.:confusedshrug:
:applause: :applause: :applause: :cheers:

This guy gets it.

People cry about the East. Go look at the West and the path LA went through to get to the Finals with Magic

[played0ut]

Many people here have Magic in their top 5 and Lebron out of their top 10.

How is Magic a better basketball player than Lebron?

Lebron is a much better scorer, an infinitely better defender, more efficent, a better rebounder, a better finisher, more durable, way better from 3, and is on a completely different level as an athlete.

Even Magics best quality, passing, is one of Lebrons strengths. I'm not saying he passes like Magic, but he is in the conversation with Bird for the best passing SF in history.

Outside of stupid shit that can't be measured like "killer will" or "leadership", I'm interested in hearing arguments for why Magic should be ranked over Lebron in anyones list.

People often knock Kobe for having Shaq and argue that he shouldn't be in the top 10 because of it. Well, KAJ is a GOAT candidate and those showtime teams were among the most stacked in history. Yet, for some reason Magic is in everyones top 5.

Doesn't really add up.:confusedshrug:


Dude. Because of accolades. Yeah, Lebron is a better overall individual player, but if you combine accolades and skills how is he better than Magic?



Also, leadership/will to win can not be quantified I agree, but it seriously makes a HUGe ****ing difference in setting the culture of a team. In the middle of games Magic would constantly hype up his team, egging them on, calling them out. When you're so focused on winning your mindset permeates the rest of the team, which forces them to into another level.







Also, sort of relevant on mindset. Havlicek has said before on 3-peats (paraphrased),

"You've been winning. It's physically and mentally exhausting to stay on top of your game for that 3rd/4th/nth win. But are you tired, or do you want to make history?"

Not saying the Heat this year would've 100% won. But they definitely weren't playing like they 'wanted to make history'.

[dc_chilling]

Dude. Because of accolades. Yeah, Lebron is a better overall individual player, but if you combine accolades and skills how is he better than Magic?



Also, leadership/will to win can not be quantified I agree, but it seriously makes a HUGe ****ing difference in setting the culture of a team. In the middle of games Magic would constantly hype up his team, egging them on, calling them out. When you're so focused on winning your mindset permeates the rest of the team, which forces them to into another level.







Also, sort of relevant on mindset. Havlicek has said before on 3-peats (paraphrased),

"You've been winning. It's physically and mentally exhausting to stay on top of your game for that 3rd/4th/nth win. But are you tired, or do you want to make history?"

Not saying the Heat this year would've 100% won. But they definitely weren't playing like they 'wanted to make history'.

I guess what I am saying is if we acknowledge that Lebron is a flat out better player than Magic, I don't understand how anyone can rank Magic above him.

Ranking Magic above Lebron based on team success is pretty stupid imho. Magic was drafted into one of the most storied franchises in NBA history, on perhaps the most stacked team in NBA history. KAJ was putting down 30+ ppg and 12+rpg in the postseason Magics rookie year.

Lebron came into the league on a team featuring Darius Miles as the "star" player with Paul Silas as the head coach. He also came in straight out of high school.

[Hey Yo]

How is it a hypothetical if it happened?

The fact is, by any metric imaginable, Lebron has been more efficent than any version of Magic ever was for the past two seasons. Even if the TS% is close, the PER isn't. The win shares aren't.

I'm honestly trying to call it fairly.

Magic was the better passer, but it ends there.

He wasn't the scorer, defender, or athlete Lebron is.

In 5 of Magics 13 seasons he missed 10 or more games. Lebron has 0 such seasons. Magic retired after 12 seasons before coming back for that farwell tour season. Lebron is in his absolute prime moving into his 12th season next year. There is no question he is more durable.

So if a player scores better, defends better, rebounds equally well, is a better athlete, and is more durable; how is he not the better player?

That isn't a knock on Magic. He is a legend.

I just can't give Magic the nod because he passes the ball a little bit better.
Again :applause: for this guy.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Is Magic 2/5 in the Finals and 5-7 vs 50 win teams in the Playoffs?

[knicksman]

comapring magic and bran is like comparing oscar to jordan. One is a statpadder that while he has better stats is considered cancer by teammates while the other plays to win. Thats all you need to know.

[played0ut]

Ranking Magic above Lebron based on team success is pretty stupid imho. Magic was drafted into one of the most storied franchises in NBA history, on perhaps the most stacked team in NBA history. KAJ was putting down 30+ ppg and 12+rpg in the postseason Magics rookie year.

Lebron came into the league on a team featuring Darius Miles as the "star" player with Paul Silas as the head coach. He also came in straight out of high school.


I've found there's always an element of luck in the success of players. Yeah, Magic/Jordan/Bird were fortunate enough to get drafted into winning teams with great front office/coaches/teammates, unlike someone like Lebron/KG.

But that luck 'does' affect success, and when it really comes down to it, when you simplify everything, success is what you're measured at. And if you're going by success, then Magic >> Bron (at least for now). Plus when it comes down to it, it's a team game, and they're a vital part of making the team successful. There's nothing wrong with doing rankings based on team success, especially if they've played a vital role in the successes.

GOAT lists typically measure the results from the cumulation if skills, impact on teamamtes/games, and accolades.



I think what you mean to focus more on is the 'BOAT' list. i.e Best players of all time when not including accolades.

[Hey Yo]

I've found there's always an element of luck in the success of players. Yeah, Magic/Jordan/Bird were fortunate enough to get drafted into winning teams with great front office/coaches/teammates, unlike someone like Lebron/KG.

But that luck 'does' affect success, and when it really comes down to it, when you simplify everything, success is what you're measured at. And if you're going by success, then Magic >> Bron (at least for now). Plus when it comes down to it, it's a team game, and they're a vital part of making the team successful. There's nothing wrong with doing rankings based on team success, especially if they've played a vital role in the successes.

GOAT lists typically measure the results from the cumulation if skills, impact on teamamtes/games, and accolades.



I think what you mean to focus more on is the 'BOAT' list. i.e Best players of all time when not including accolades.
Magic's rookie year and then on for the next 7yrs...... played with the best Center in NBA history, who had the most unstoppable shot in NBA history!

Bird's rookie year he added like 35 wins compared than last season.

Jordan didnt have KAJ

James had Z

[knicksman]

well bran already has 2 superstars and still failed. If youre born a loser, youre a loser. Thats why magic>>>bran

[Kvnzhangyay]

well bran already has 2 superstars and still failed. If youre born a loser, youre a loser. Thats why magic>>>bran

"Born a loser" -> Millionare celebrity

[knicksman]

"Born a loser" -> Millionare celebrity

yet has an ugly wife:oldlol:

[stalkerforlife]

if i want to win a championship: magic
if i want to win regular season MVP: lebron :applause:

Sums it up.

Bron pads his stats in the regular season and wins useless awards. Heck, Nash and Malone both have as many as Kobe and Shaq, COMBINED.

[dc_chilling]

well bran already has 2 superstars and still failed. If youre born a loser, youre a loser. Thats why magic>>>bran

If you are going to troll, at least be clever with it.

If Lebron, a incredibly wealthy iconic sports figure, is a "born loser"; wtf are you?

Also, if 4 finals appearances, 2 rings, 2 FMVPs, and 2 MVPs in 4 years is a failure, what is a success?

[dc_chilling]

Sums it up.

Bron pads his stats in the regular season and wins useless awards. Heck, Nash and Malone both have as many as Kobe and Shaq, COMBINED.

MVPs are useless awards?

I guess being recognized as the most valuable player in the league isn't worth much to you.

Plus the guy has been to 5 finals in 11 seasons. He has two rings and is only 29 years old.

[TheBigVeto]

I've found there's always an element of luck in the success of players. Yeah, Magic/Jordan/Bird were fortunate enough to get drafted into winning teams with great front office/coaches/teammates, unlike someone like Lebron/KG.



Only Magic was lucky. He jumped on Kareem's coattails and never let go.
Bird and Jordan made their franchises successful, when they joined, those teams were atrocious.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Only Magic was lucky. He jumped on Kareem's coattails and never let go.
Bird and Jordan made their franchises successful, when they joined, those teams were atrocious.

But part of the reason Bird and Jordan were successful was that the GM was actually competent

[dc_chilling]

Only Magic was lucky. He jumped on Kareem's coattails and never let go.
Bird and Jordan made their franchises successful, when they joined, those teams were atrocious.

Well technically Jordan and Bird also got extremely lucky.

Within 3 years Jordan had:

Oakley (Would go on to be an All-Star and First Team All NBA defender down the road)

Pippen (First Ballet HOFer)

Grant (All Star and 4x Second Team All NBA defender down the road)

Paxson

A couple years later Phil Jackson, BJ, and others followed.

Bird:

Within a year Birds roster was loaded with HOF'ers. Archibald, Mchale, and Parish were all there by his second season.

Magic was just lucky enough to not have to wait.

[Pointguard]

I agree that Magic was great at running the show. At the same time, he was on an incredibly stacked team so the degree of difficulty was far lower imo than anything Lebron has done with his teams.

If you think Magic is better because he controlled the tempo of the game better, that's cool.

I'll take the guy who is better in practically every facet of the game.
I'm saying he could do things Lebron struggles with.

In the playoffs Lebron can't get easy shots for himself - he gets in ruts all the time. Especially in the second half. Magic could get every player on the team easy shots. Magic could get Rambis layups.

Magic makes you play his game. Lebron can't push the ball. He's never been able to do that. Lebron isn't that creative for others without over dribbling.

Lebron doesn't make his teammates better. Every teammate looked good in LA. In Miami, you don't know who is looking good and how short of period it will run.

Magic executes plays better early in the clock, middle of the clock and late in the clock. He takes way more chances.

Magic was more efficient careerwise and made his team super-efficient. The whole team shot 545% one year. And Magic managed the clock waaay better than Lebron has ever done.

Magic played more aggressively in the playoffs and dictated how the game was played. Lebron was barely shooting the ball when his team was getting blown out. Lebron has played very conservative in his three loses in the finals. He couldn't be turned to in those situations - somebody here posted the numbers of the shots he takes in the second half of finals when the competition is tight. Magic got more aggressive.

Magic was much better when doubled than Lebron was.

The main facets of the game Magic was better than Lebron (decision making, control, clock management, aggressiveness, efficiency, pace control and team play) mean more than scoring and defense.

[DatAsh]

Magic controlled his total offense better than any player ever did. Its hard to compare him offensively to players whose teams frequently go into offensive ruts. Lebron was the better scorer but he has a ways to go to match him offensively.

This.

Magic is for me the best offensive player in NBA history.

Really the question boils to to offense and defense and who you feel has the biggest sum of both. Over the course of their careers, does replacing Lebron with Magic improve the average team's offense more than it hurts their defense? For me it's very close. I think Lebron has a bigger edge on defense than Magic does on offense, but I value offense over defense unless we're talking centers. I'd give Magic a tiny edge at this point.

[dc_chilling]

I'm saying he could do things Lebron struggles with.

In the playoffs Lebron can't get easy shots for himself - he gets in ruts all the time. Especially in the second half. Magic could get every player on the team easy shots. Magic could get Rambis layups.

Magic makes you play his game. Lebron can't push the ball. He's never been able to do that. Lebron isn't that creative for others without over dribbling.

Lebron doesn't make his teammates better. Every teammate looked good in LA. In Miami, you don't know who is looking good and how short of period it will run.

Magic executes plays better early in the clock, middle of the clock and late in the clock. He takes way more chances.

Magic was more efficient careerwise and made his team super-efficient. The whole team shot 545% one year. And Magic managed the clock waaay better than Lebron has ever done.

Magic played more aggressively in the playoffs and dictated how the game was played. Lebron was barely shooting the ball when his team was getting blown out. Lebron has played very conservative in his three loses in the finals. He couldn't be turned to in those situations - somebody here posted the numbers of the shots he takes in the second half of finals when the competition is tight. Magic got more aggressive.

Magic was much better when doubled than Lebron was.

The main facets of the game Magic was better than Lebron (decision making, control, clock management, aggressiveness, efficiency, pace control and team play) mean more than scoring and defense.

Nothing means more than scoring and defense. That is the essence of basketball.

You act like Lebron is chopped liver as a play-maker. He can make passes using his athleticism that Magic couldn't dream of.

The "he makes his teammates better" argument doesn't hold any water with me. Lebron took a weak supporting cast to the NBA finals, led a team with Mo Williams as a second option to 66 wins and the second best home record in NBA history. When Lebron left Cleveland, they went from having the best record in the league to one of the longest losing streaks in NBA history.

Magic was on one of the most loaded teams in NBA history. KAJ basically averaged 30/15/4 with 4 blocks a game in the playoffs during Magics first couple seasons. Of course it is going to look like Magic is making his teammates better, they were much better to begin with.

Plus, for the last time. Lebron has been more efficient than Magic ever was over the last couple seasons. To call Magic more efficient, despite the fact that the current version of Lebron is more efficient than Magic ever was, is foolish.

[knicksman]

If you are going to troll, at least be clever with it.

If Lebron, a incredibly wealthy iconic sports figure, is a "born loser"; wtf are you?

Also, if 4 finals appearances, 2 rings, 2 FMVPs, and 2 MVPs in 4 years is a failure, what is a success?

Im still on my way to success. And the reason why men wants to be successful is women. Knowing that I can get a more beautiful woman than lebrons wife means that im more of a winner than him.

And regarding his achievement?? The moment lebron joined wade is the moment lebron admits to the world that hes weak/loser. And so unless you have cheap standards, cheated rings means little to no rings to me. They are only as good as a ringchasers ring.

[knicksman]

Nothing means more than scoring and defense. That is the essence of basketball.

You act like Lebron is chopped liver as a play-maker. He can make passes using his athleticism that Magic couldn't dream of.

The "he makes his teammates better" argument doesn't hold any water with me. Lebron took a weak supporting cast to the NBA finals, led a team with Mo Williams as a second option to 66 wins and the second best home record in NBA history. When Lebron left Cleveland, they went from having the best record in the league to one of the longest losing streaks in NBA history.

Magic was on one of the most loaded teams in NBA history. KAJ basically averaged 30/15/4 with 4 blocks a game in the playoffs during Magics first couple seasons. Of course it is going to look like Magic is making his teammates better, they were much better to begin with.

Plus, for the last time. Lebron has been more efficient than Magic ever was over the last couple seasons. To call Magic more efficient, despite the fact that the current version of Lebron is more efficient than Magic ever was, is foolish.

AT the end of the day, theres more to the game than stats that you kids dont know. Its about synergy. Theres a reason why miller was more successful despite iverson winning an MVP. Its the same reason why magic/jordan/kobe are more succesful than bran/bird/robertson

[dc_chilling]

@Knicksman

Let's agree to disagree.

You could argue, as I would, that Iverson was more successful than Reggie Miller ever was.

Iverson: 1xMVP, 11x All Star, 3x All NBA First Team, ROY, 4x Scoring Champ, 1x trip to the finals.

Miller: 5x All Star, 0x MVPs, 0x All NBA First or Second teams, 0x Scoring champ, wasn't rookie of the year, 1x trip to the finals.

Iverson also meant a lot more to the league. Despite being more polarizing, he was incredibly popular. Plus, he helped revolutionize the crossover.

Iverson over Miller in a landslide.

[knicksman]

@Knicksman

Let's agree to disagree.

You could argue, as I would, that Iverson was more successful than Reggie Miller ever was.

Iverson: 1xMVP, 11x All Star, 3x All NBA First Team, ROY, 4x Scoring Champ, 1x trip to the finals.

Miller: 5x All Star, 0x MVPs, 0x All NBA First or Second teams, 0x Scoring champ, wasn't rookie of the year, 1x trip to the finals.

Iverson also meant a lot more to the league. Despite being more polarizing, he was incredibly popular. Plus, he helped revolutionize the crossover.

Iverson over Miller in a landslide.


iverson only 1 50 win team throughout his career. 1 conference finals compare that to miller who has lots 50 win teams and conference finals. Could even challenge the jordans bulls. Impact wise, miller just impacts the game more than iverson. And its not even close.

[dc_chilling]

iverson only 1 50 win team throughout his career. 1 conference finals compare that to miller who has lots 50 win teams and conference finals. Could even challenge the jordans bulls. Impact wise, miller just impacts the game more than iverson. And its not even close.

:biggums:

[Lord Bean]

Apples and oranges. These two guys are completely different players. Magic is the building block GMs picture in their dreams. Terrific teammate and highly respectable leader while being an absolute killer on the court, with competitiveness just leaking out of him. He is not only statistically a great player, but he is the prime example of perfect intangibles. Magic just transcends stats, he is just everything you want out of your franchise player. Lebron on the other hand is also a great player, but in a much different way. He's a lot like a rich man's Scottie Pippen. In that he does all the dirty work, he's the supreme glue guy for teams. He'll do all the little things in the flow of the game, and is the guy everyone loves to play with because he'll always let other players shoot in crunch time and take the glory. In that sense, he's a terrific teammate like Magic. But he's also more of the guy you want backing up your #1, your closer, your killer. Not everyone can thrive in the tough times, in the difficult moments of basketball games. Give him a guy who can carry the team over the hill, and Lebron is a terrific player. As far as the question goes, it's tough. They're two very different players, but I'd give Magic the edge because he's just a more natural #1 caliber player.

[knicksman]

:biggums:

its ok bro. I know lebron stans are considered the lowest IQ on this board

[dc_chilling]

its ok bro. I know lebron stans are considered the lowest IQ on this board

Lol. You simply don't understand basketball.

You won't find anyone who will agree with you that Reggie Miller had a better career than Allen Iverson. Not anyone intelligent anyway.

[dc_chilling]

Apples and oranges. These two guys are completely different players. Magic is the building block GMs picture in their dreams. Terrific teammate and highly respectable leader while being an absolute killer on the court, with competitiveness just leaking out of him. He is not only statistically a great player, but he is the prime example of perfect intangibles. Magic just transcends stats, he is just everything you want out of your franchise player. Lebron on the other hand is also a great player, but in a much different way. He's a lot like a rich man's Scottie Pippen. In that he does all the dirty work, he's the supreme glue guy for teams. He'll do all the little things in the flow of the game, and is the guy everyone loves to play with because he'll always let other players shoot in crunch time and take the glory. In that sense, he's a terrific teammate like Magic. But he's also more of the guy you want backing up your #1, your closer, your killer. Not everyone can thrive in the tough times, in the difficult moments of basketball games. Give him a guy who can carry the team over the hill, and Lebron is a terrific player. As far as the question goes, it's tough. They're two very different players, but I'd give Magic the edge because he's just a more natural #1 caliber player.

This is moronic. You would rather have Lebron as your backup to Magic?

You do realize Magic has had some awful moments in crunch time too right?

He was called Tragic Johnson for a while.

Also, Lebron needs someone to carry him over the hill in tough times?

The guy has the highest ppg in game 7s in the history of the league. In 2012 with his team down 3-2 against Indiana he dropped 40-18-9. The next series against Boston he was down 3-2 again and dropped 45-15-5 in Boston. In game 7 of the finals last year he dropped 37 and 12 to with the chip.

But hey, I guess those weren't tough times. :pimp:

[GimmeThat]

I like the Iverson/Miller debate.

What I found to be funny, is that you can actually put both of these players together on the same team, and they wouldn't nessecarily conflict each other with their role.

It's hard to say anyone would put Iverson below Miller if they were on the same team. But Miller's ability is such a great commodity that any team would utilize him.

Similar to the Luck/Wilson debate in my opinion.
which I won't get into it because basketball you play both ends and how football is just a different sport period.



Back to the topic though,

spun off from this debate, if we put Lebron/Magic on the same team, who would be considered the 1a?
They would both probably win a few FMVP if they had an age difference, and if not, I'm not sure many would put Magic over Bron, because I can see fans argue that you put an average point guard around Bron/company, and you can average close to 10 assists. And if you replace Bron with an average SF, Magic's stats may suddenly be viewed as "empty" stats.

I'm not saying that logic is correct, nor am I saying I support that argument.

But food for thoughts.

[The-Legend-24]

Last I checked Magic wasn't 2/5 in the finals. :oldlol:

[Kvnzhangyay]

Last I checked Magic wasn't 2/5 in the finals. :oldlol:

Yea when you got great stars/solid role players like James Worthy, KAJ, AC Green, and other ppl im 2 lazy to think of

And btw they woulda beat the Bulls in 91 in the NBA finals had Worthy not been injured, i mean they won game 1, then Worthy got injured, and no one else could stop Jordan...

[knicksman]

Lol. You simply don't understand basketball.

You won't find anyone who will agree with you that Reggie Miller had a better career than Allen Iverson. Not anyone intelligent anyway.

LOL actually NBA players would chose miller over iverson. There was a debate on this. But of course bran stans. dumbest on this board:lol

[knicksman]

How about robertson instead? 1 50 win team again throughout his career and worse is that he missed the playoffs during his prime. Yet this guy is considered top 10. Again ill pick miller over him.

[dc_chilling]

How about robertson instead? 1 50 win team again throughout his career and worse is that he missed the playoffs during his prime. Yet this guy is considered top 10. Again ill pick miller over him.

Ok moron.

Go ahead and pick Reggie Miller over Oscar Robertson and Allen Iverson.

You are quite possibly be the dumbest person on this board.

[knicksman]

Ok moron.

Go ahead and pick Reggie Miller over Oscar Robertson and Allen Iverson.

You are quite possibly be the dumbest person on this board.

its ok bro. im not a sheep who follows where the herd goes:lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yea when you got great stars/solid role players like James Worthy, KAJ, AC Green, and other ppl im 2 lazy to think of

And btw they woulda beat the Bulls in 91 in the NBA finals had Worthy not been injured, i mean they won game 1, then Worthy got injured, and no one else could stop Jordan...
Magic could have been 7/9 if it weren't for the injuries of Byron Scott and himself in the '89 Finals plus the Worthy injury in the '91 Finals like you mentioned. So this Magic vs Lebron comparison really is a joke, 2/5 has no business being in the same breath. Point to Magic's teammates all you want but understand that KAJ was 32 years old in Magic's first year.

[knicksman]

hey how about dirk vs robertson or iverson OP. you still dumb enough to chose robertson/iverson?

[dc_chilling]

hey how about dirk vs robertson or iverson OP. you still dumb enough to chose robertson/iverson?

That wasn't the question.

The question was Miller vs Iverson and Robertson.

You chose Miller.

[GimmeThat]

hey how about dirk vs robertson or iverson OP. you still dumb enough to chose robertson/iverson?


Robertson doesn't have a bad resume

Dirk has already surpassed him career in points
both have similar accolades


it's just another peak versus career argument.


If Dirk were to retire today
people might still be able to make a case for the Big O.


A better conversation is adding Pau Gasol to the mix.
who, lets say becomes a journeyman ala Shaq
if he wins another ring without Kobe/Phil

where do people rank him?

I mean, he's not gonna have a peak argument
but as for career wise. it's a tough call for the audience.

[Pointguard]

Nothing means more than scoring and defense. That is the essence of basketball.

Total scoring is a much different thing. Magic was always responsible for more total points and getting his teammates involved. Magic got everybody on the team scoring opportunities at their sweet spots.




You act like Lebron is chopped liver as a play-maker. He can make passes using his athleticism that Magic couldn't dream of.
Please show me an example of that? That's really random. It doesn't mean anything, its like shooting an athletic three. Useless in the grand scheme of things.

Lebron made maybe two good passes this whole series. That's Magic's quota for a quarter.


The "he makes his teammates better" argument doesn't hold any water with me. Lebron took a weak supporting cast to the NBA finals, led a team with Mo Williams as a second option to 66 wins and the second best home record in NBA history. When Lebron left Cleveland, they went from having the best record in the league to one of the longest losing streaks in NBA history.

Magic was on one of the most loaded teams in NBA history. KAJ basically averaged 30/15/4 with 4 blocks a game in the playoffs during Magics first couple seasons. Of course it is going to look like Magic is making his teammates better, they were much better to begin with.

Kareem was a beast because he was featured and given the ball in the spots he loved. It wasn't like Kareem had won anything the previous 9 years. That team was eliminated in the second round the year before. In that great year by Kareem, rookie Magic was totally capable of coming in and filling his shoes when his number was called. As a rookie Magic had one of the best finals games ever.


Plus, for the last time. Lebron has been more efficient than Magic ever was over the last couple seasons. To call Magic more efficient, despite the fact that the current version of Lebron is more efficient than Magic ever was, is foolish.
Sorry, you have to look at the collective work, context and the whole picture. One year, two years, doesn't prove anything. Plus, Lebron intentionally played conservative to up his numbers. Magic also played an aggressive intuitive/super creative game, going all out for the win, while Lebron plays a safe, conservative conscientious game - he rarely shoots when his team really needs it. If Magic played that game it would be a joke of a comparison. Magic took a lot of half court shots at the end of the quarter. Magic lead a team that shot 545% because Magic was the king of getting easy shots for his teammates as well as getting them shots in their sweet spots. Lebron rarely plays on that dimension.

Magic was totally committed to team goals. And has to be judged on that context. Magic was more efficient because he always pushed the car to the limits. Which is what the car should be doing. Lebron coast in the car rather than get what he should out of it. It always looks good but never gets to its max.

[dc_chilling]

Total scoring is a much different thing. Magic was always responsible for more total points and getting his teammates involved. Magic got everybody on the team scoring opportunities at their sweet spots.


Please show me an example of that? That's really random. It doesn't mean anything, its like shooting an athletic three. Useless in the grand scheme of things.

Lebron made maybe two good passes this whole series. That's Magic's quota for a quarter.

Kareem was a beast because he was featured and given the ball in the spots he loved. It wasn't like Kareem had won anything the previous 9 years. That team was eliminated in the second round the year before. In that great year by Kareem, rookie Magic was totally capable of coming in and filling his shoes when his number was called. As a rookie Magic had one of the best finals games ever.

Sorry, you have to look at the collective work, context and the whole picture. One year, two years, doesn't prove anything. Plus, Lebron intentionally played conservative to up his numbers. Magic also played an aggressive intuitive/super creative game, going all out for the win, while Lebron plays a safe, conservative conscientious game - he rarely shoots when his team really needs it. If Magic played that game it would be a joke of a comparison. Magic took a lot of half court shots at the end of the quarter. Magic lead a team that shot 545% because Magic was the king of getting easy shots for his teammates as well as getting them shots in their sweet spots. Lebron rarely plays on that dimension.

Magic was totally committed to team goals. And has to be judged on that context. Magic was more efficient because he always pushed the car to the limits. Which is what the car should be doing. Lebron coast in the car rather than get what he should out of it. It always looks good but never gets to its max.

:facepalm so much wrong with this.

First, we don't know what would happen "if Magic played it conservative". Let's leave the hypotheticals out of the debate. The fact is, Lebron has been more efficent over the past couple years than Magic ever was. The reason behind him being more efficent isn't the point.

Second, Magic didn't make Kareem a beast. Sorry, that's revisionist histroy. Kareem was a beast long before his days playing for the Lakers and was quite frankly, he was a better and more acomplished player than Magic.

Third, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA&feature=kp

Fourth, you have yet to come up with a single reason Magic is better outside of being "committed to team goals" or "game management".

[Pointguard]

:facepalm so much wrong with this.

First, we don't know what would happen "if Magic played it conservative". Let's leave the hypotheticals out of the debate. The fact is, Lebron has been more efficent over the past couple years than Magic ever was. The reason behind him being more efficent isn't the point.

Before Lebron began making a conscious effort to take care of his shooting percentage he was shooting 510% from the field. Once he begins shying away from the ball at the end of quarters and talking about his shooting percentage its up by by 55% points. If you add 55% points to Magics best years he's over 600% at least twice. Magic is taking shots like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI Start at the 10:35 mark til the end about 5 minutes later, its all shots taken at the end of quarters and from half court. Lebron simply, rarely takes these shots anymore.


Second, Magic didn't make Kareem a beast. Sorry, that's revisionist histroy. Kareem was a beast long before his days playing for the Lakers and was quite frankly, he was a better and more acomplished player than Magic.

Kareem only made it to the finals twice in 10 years without Magic in a very weak era. Magic has a way better winning percentage, in a waaaay better decade. Magic had a better winning percentage when he didn't play with Kareem. The only time Kareem experienced a two peat was when he accepted a lesser role.



Third, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA&feature=kp
You set yourself up there. You were better off leaving that one alone. By insidehoops own. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4Dm0lZTqCc



Fourth, you have yet to come up with a single reason Magic is better outside of being "committed to team goals" or "game management".

I'll number them for you.
1) Magic could get more out of his teammates. Meaning Magic always found ways to get off three or more players. Miami, over four years has rarely ever had three players going off scoring wise at the same time. In LA's two peat, Kareem was the teams 4th most prolific scorer each year. In '87 he averaged 17 ppg. Overall just a better team player.
2) Magic could execute plays better. Magic had great timing and could get a lot out of his teammates strengths. If Lebron knows his players strengths as good as Magic he doesn't know how to help them get off the same way.
3) Magic was more clutch as exemplified in the first video I listed above.
4) Magic was a more aggressive player. I really believe Magic took more shots in the second half of finals games than Lebron does. Especially if their team is behind. Lebron is the better scorer except at these times.
5) Magic was the better leader by example or otherwise.
6) Magic could adapt better in the game. Its usually that the more aggressive player is less adaptable. Not the case here. Lebron gets into a lot of ruts. Magic could go from PF to Center to SF and dominate in each. Go from a player who sacrifices his game to one who takes it over.
7) Mental toughness. Lebron refuses to stay down low and punish defenders. Twice has let rather small, young (23 year old) SF's outscore him in the playoffs. Lebron doesn't push his game on the opposition. He takes what is given, as did Magic, but Lebron doesn't shove the game down their throats.
8) Game management. When Magic played great passing teams, he ran them into the ground. Magic made teams play his game. When teams like SA came in with their passing game, he didn't become a spectator, he literally ran them out of the building.