"Sidekick" performances compared to some FMVP performances

[Roundball_Rock]

One of the amusing things about this "rings as the man" talk is that arbitrary standard means people like Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups get more "credit" for their rings than people who were clearly superior players and had better Finals performances. The FMVP emphasis also is used on a convenient case-by-case basis. Magic and Duncan get full credit for all their rings while some, most prominently Kobe, are discredited for some rings (even though Duncan just won with 15/10 and Kobe had a 25/8 Finals). There also is no accounting for instances where "the man" was not "the man" in the Finals.

Which group of players had better Finals performances?

Group A (won FMVP)

Leonard 18/6/2
Pierce 22/5/6
Parker 25/5/3
Billups 21/3/5
Dumars 27/2/6
Worthy 22/7/4
KAJ 26/9/5
Maxwell 18/10/3
Magic 22/11/9
D. Johnson 22/6/6
Unseld 9/12/4
White 22/4/6
Reed 16/9/3
Reed 23/11/3

Group B ("sidekicks" and/or non-FMVP)


Duncan 15/10/2
Wade 20/4/5
Wade 22/6/5
Gasol 19/12/4
Gasol 19/9/2
Garnett 18/13/3 Allen 20/5/3
Duncan 18/12/4 Ginobli 18/6/3
Hamilton 21/5/4
Bryant 27/6/5
Bryant 25/8/6
Robinson 17/12/2
Pippen 20/8/4
Drexler 22/10/7
Pippen 21/9/8
Pippen 21/8/8
Pippen 21/9/7
Worthy 21/5/4
KAJ 22/7/1
McHale 26/9/2
Erving 19/9/5

Group B, in effect, are not being judging by what they actually did on the court but are diminished because of who else happened to be on their team, even though their performances would have won the FMVP in many years on another team.

Is too much made of "sidekick" talk in the basketball world? Particularly when often, as Ne_1 noted yesterday, "the man" could not win "on his own. "The man," in a 12 team sport where there will be 8-9 rotation players, can only contribute so much to the team's overall scoring, rebounding, assists, defense, leadership, etc. No one is winning on their own as it is implied in the "rings as the man" talk, talk that is endemic to the basketball world. Look at LeBron. He had a line better than most FMVP's but because the rest of his team did not perform well his team was trounced in the Finals.

[HOoopCityJones]

Bron and Duncan stans avoiding this thread like the plague.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is obvious Group B performed better.

[VIntageNOvel]

^ dude i thought you're a hardcore bran's nutlicker?

[NuggetsFan]

You can't group every case together like there all the exact same situation. Every situation is different. Nobody calls Duncan a sidekick for Parker winning the FMVP because any person who understands basketball realizes how much Duncan being Duncan allowed Parker to win that award. While Kobe's situation is different because he wasn't like Duncan in that situation, Shaq was. When comparing him to Parker he's in an entirely different league. When comparing him to Duncan you have to factor that in. It would be shortsighted not too. How much does it impact that I have no idea but the difference in being the best player on your team & the 2nd best player on your team is there. Anybody who's ever played any kind of basketball/coached/been around it realizes it.

It isn't about being a "sidekick" or whatever internet message board things are said. It's about realizing that when your the 2nd best player on your team there are great benefits, esp if the player is already really talented and could be the best player of the majority of teams. So when comparing that to other players who were in a situation where they were the best player you have to factor that in.

FMVP shouldn't be looked at as a whole. Should be looked at individually and with the proper context on how it was won. Like with Billups. Nobody values Billups FMVP over Kobe's ring. When comparing Jordan's FMVP vs Kobe's ring than yeah that's different. How could it not be?

[Marlo_Stanfield]

LeBron James is the true FMVP of 2014 finals.
only the imense hatred by the NBA and them trying to protect the Jordan is GOAT myth, because he makes them so much money, prevented him for winning his third straight, even as the losing player:confusedshrug: :facepalm :coleman:

[riseagainst]

Kobe and McHale.
:applause:

but but we should count non-FMVP chips as losses.

Kobe actually is 2/7.
:lol
lebrontards are so funny.

[Lord Bean]

Kobe's 2001 postseason run is more impressive than anything Duncan has done in the past 7-8 years.

[TheCorporation]

This thread is retarded and hurting my brain. You need to compare the Finals MVP winner and his sidekick. Not random winners and random sidekicks.

WTF? This thread is hurting my brain...Fail thread

[97 bulls]

This thread is retarded and hurting my brain. You need to compare the Finals MVP winner and his sidekick. Not random winners and random sidekicks.

WTF? This thread is hurting my brain...Fail thread
I believe his point is to dispose the notion that not winning the finals MVP makes you a failure. Most of the stats put up by the players on his list of players that didnt win Finals MVp are better than the players on the list that did.

So to summarize, finals MVP is not an end all be all.

[ArbitraryWater]

But they don't.... ?

Nobody compares the players from Group A to Group B, everyone knows Group B is superior... Just give the Group A players their props, while when we compare Group B players, we compare them WITHIN THEIR OWN TIER... So the standarts are higher, and stuff like Kobe shooting 43% en route to a title as 2nd option, WILL BE MENTIONED... Get it, OP?

[ArbitraryWater]

You can't group every case together like there all the exact same situation. Every situation is different. Nobody calls Duncan a sidekick for Parker winning the FMVP because any person who understands basketball realizes how much Duncan being Duncan allowed Parker to win that award. While Kobe's situation is different because he wasn't like Duncan in that situation, Shaq was. When comparing him to Parker he's in an entirely different league. When comparing him to Duncan you have to factor that in. It would be shortsighted not too. How much does it impact that I have no idea but the difference in being the best player on your team & the 2nd best player on your team is there. Anybody who's ever played any kind of basketball/coached/been around it realizes it.

It isn't about being a "sidekick" or whatever internet message board things are said. It's about realizing that when your the 2nd best player on your team there are great benefits, esp if the player is already really talented and could be the best player of the majority of teams. So when comparing that to other players who were in a situation where they were the best player you have to factor that in.

FMVP shouldn't be looked at as a whole. Should be looked at individually and with the proper context on how it was won. Like with Billups. Nobody values Billups FMVP over Kobe's ring. When comparing Jordan's FMVP vs Kobe's ring than yeah that's different. How could it not be?

Exactly.. Roundball trying to be a bit too controversial here.

[NumberSix]

FMVP is the most overrated award in the NBA. It's pointless. We are able to see who was the the best player in a series. It's gotten to the point that everybody thinks every other player on the team was a scrub.

[sammichoffate]

He's trying to point out how the dinguses on this site try to discredit second-option players who performed better than certain FMVP's. Like someone earlier in the thread stated, FMVP isn't the be all, end all.

[HOoopCityJones]

This thread is retarded and hurting my brain. You need to compare the Finals MVP winner and his sidekick. Not random winners and random sidekicks.

WTF? This thread is hurting my brain...Fail thread


Damn, you speaking too much sense for some Heat fans. :roll:

His head might explode from OP making too much sense.

[TheCorporation]

I believe his point is to dispose the notion that not winning the finals MVP makes you a failure. Most of the stats put up by the players on his list of players that didnt win Finals MVp are better than the players on the list that did.

So to summarize, finals MVP is not an end all be all.

How the hell can that be his point when he is comparing random sidekicks to random Finals MVPs. The only way this thread gets any substance is by comparing year-by-year each Finals MVP winner and his sidekick. I think I know why he didn't do it that way. It will have no legs and will fail.

I get what he is saying, if it's related more to "yeah a sidekick is still good" cool I get that, no one said they weren't. The term Sidekick has taken on a bad connotation and it shouldn't. Pippen was a sidekick, a damn beast ass Hall of Famer of a sidekick. Same with Kobe, etc.

[riseagainst]

Lebron stans catching mad feelings.
:oldlol:

[DFish24]

:roll: This thread making Bran stans:mad:

[Collie]

I thought this was gonna be a thread comparing Finals MVPs and their sidekick on a year to year basis, with detailed analysis about their stats and impact.

Instead I get a nonsensical list of players that played in different years that have no correlation whatsoever. Comparing 1985 Kareem to random second bananas? Why not 1985 Kareem to 1985 Magic?

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe's the greatest "sidekick" of all time and a top 5-10 alpha, #1 too.

And people call him selfish?

Please. Only if selfish means winning at all costs.

[Dresta]

One of the amusing things about this "rings as the man" talk is that arbitrary standard means people like Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups get more "credit" for their rings than people who were clearly superior players and had better Finals performances. The FMVP emphasis also is used on a convenient case-by-case basis. Magic and Duncan get full credit for all their rings while some, most prominently Kobe, are discredited for some rings (even though Duncan just won with 15/10 and Kobe had a 25/8 Finals). There also is no accounting for instances where "the man" was not "the man" in the Finals.

Which group of players had better Finals performances?

Group A (won FMVP)

Leonard 18/6/2
Pierce 22/5/6
Parker 25/5/3
Billups 21/3/5
Dumars 27/2/6
Worthy 22/7/4
KAJ 26/9/5
Maxwell 18/10/3
Magic 22/11/9
D. Johnson 22/6/6
Unseld 9/12/4
White 22/4/6
Reed 16/9/3
Reed 23/11/3

Group B ("sidekicks" and/or non-FMVP)


Duncan 15/10/2
Wade 20/4/5
Wade 22/6/5
Gasol 19/12/4
Gasol 19/9/2
Garnett 18/13/3 Allen 20/5/3
Duncan 18/12/4 Ginobli 18/6/3
Hamilton 21/5/4
Bryant 27/6/5
Bryant 25/8/6
Robinson 17/12/2
Pippen 20/8/4
Drexler 22/10/7
Pippen 21/9/8
Pippen 21/8/8
Pippen 21/9/7
Worthy 21/5/4
KAJ 22/7/1
McHale 26/9/2
Erving 19/9/5

Group B, in effect, are not being judging by what they actually did on the court but are diminished because of who else happened to be on their team, even though their performances would have won the FMVP in many years on another team.

Is too much made of "sidekick" talk in the basketball world? Particularly when often, as Ne_1 noted yesterday, "the man" could not win "on his own. "The man," in a 12 team sport where there will be 8-9 rotation players, can only contribute so much to the team's overall scoring, rebounding, assists, defense, leadership, etc. No one is winning on their own as it is implied in the "rings as the man" talk, talk that is endemic to the basketball world. Look at LeBron. He had a line better than most FMVP's but because the rest of his team did not perform well his team was trounced in the Finals.
Yes, but people like to have personal heroes and to place then on pedestals, and this won't change even though SAS clearly showed that balanced team ball with at least 5 guys who can do damage is the way to go.

[Black and White]

This thread is destroying Bran stans argument about Kobe only having 2 FMVPs :roll: :roll: :roll:

[TheCorporation]

I thought this was gonna be a thread comparing Finals MVPs and their sidekick on a year to year basis, with detailed analysis about their stats and impact.

Instead I get a nonsensical list of players that played in different years that have no correlation whatsoever. Comparing 1985 Kareem to random second bananas? Why not 1985 Kareem to 1985 Magic?

Exactly, it's quite retarded. I don't even get his point, I didn't even look at any of the statistical data because the premise was just too, well, retarded.

[Lord Bean]

Why did OP not mention Lebron's 2011 sidekick ring?

[TheCorporation]

This thread is destroying Bran stans argument about Kobe only having 2 FMVPs :roll: :roll: :roll:


...

Except that...There is no argument...And he does only have 2 FMVPs...

http://cdn.straightfromthea.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/ray-j-gif.gif

[Black and White]

...

Except that...There is no argument...And he does only have 2 FMVPs...

http://cdn.straightfromthea.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/ray-j-gif.gif

You guys always try to take away his 3 other rings :roll: :roll:

[stalkerforlife]

This thread is destroying Bran stans argument about Kobe only having 2 FMVPs :roll: :roll: :roll:

It truly is. Kobe, as has been stated, has not won the finals MVP on numerous occasions where he clearly outplayed a lot of other finals MVPs throughout the years.

In reality, Kobe has about 4 finals MVP awards.

[stalkerforlife]

Why did OP not mention Lebron's 2011 sidekick ring?

Because he sabotaged the team and lost to a guy he mocked after realizing Wade would've gotten the MVP had the Heat won.

When Bron colluded with these guys, he did it with a secret clause that he got all the credit. Wade played too good and Bron quit.

[dubeta]

tl;dr kobe was a roleplayer

Its easy to score when all the defense was on Shaq

Remember how many open looks Danny Green was getting in the 2013 Finals?

Danny green > 2000-2002 Kobe

[Lord Bean]

tl;dr kobe was a roleplayer

Its easy to score when all the defense was on Shaq

Remember how many open looks Danny Green was getting in the 2013 Finals?

Danny green > 2000-2002 Kobe
Why did Lebron play worse than Jason Terry in the 2011 finals then?

With Wade dominating, Lebron was free to dominate as well by joining Wade to split the defense.

But he got outplayed by Jason Terry and locked down by JJ Barea.

Thoughts? Jason Terry and JJ Barea > Lebron?

[Ne 1]

tl;dr kobe was a roleplayer

Its easy to score when all the defense was on Shaq

Remember how many open looks Danny Green was getting in the 2013 Finals?

Danny green > 2000-2002 Kobe
You aren't even a convincing troll. Try harder.

[dubeta]

Why did Lebron play worse than Jason Terry in the 2011 finals then?

With Wade dominating, Lebron was free to dominate as well by joining Wade to split the defense.

But he got outplayed by Jason Terry and locked down by JJ Barea.

Thoughts? Jason Terry and JJ Barea > Lebron?

How did jason terry outplay him?

LeBron averaged 18/7/7, all Terry has on him is 1 point

And JJ Barea guarded lebron ONCE the entire series and ppl think it was the whole time :facepalm

LeBrons epic choke finals > most of Kobe's finals :roll:

[Black and White]

How did jason terry outplay him?

LeBron averaged 18/7/7, all Terry has on him is 1 point

And JJ Barea guarded lebron ONCE the entire series and ppl think it was the whole time :facepalm

LeBrons epic choke finals > most of Kobe's finals :roll:

A sixth man averaging more points than you over the course of a series is pretty pathetic, I mean, hes the best player in the world, no excuses.