Better 2-peat: 08-10 vs. 11-13

[Rocketswin2013]

Let's start with Kobe:

http://d1warraxuf7xh1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Kobe-Bryant-2009-NBA-Finals.jpg

http://dyingread.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/2010-NBA-Champion-LA-Lakers-Kobe-Bryant-Celebrating-His-Fifth-NBA-Championship.jpeg

Regular Season stats(2 year span):


Kobe Bryant: Per Game (2008-09 to 2009-10)
From To G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2009 2010 155 155 37.4 9.8 21.2 .462 1.4 4.1 .341 8.4 17.1 .491 5.9 7.1 .834 1.1 4.2 5.3 4.9 1.5 0.4 2.9 2.4 26.9
So that's 27/5/5/1.5/.4/ with just 2.9 TO's on 57% TS. 37 MPG.



Kobe Bryant: Advanced (2008-09 to 2009-10)
From To G MP PER TS% eFG% FTr 3PAr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
2009 2010 155 5795 23.1 .554 .495 .337 .194 3.3 12.5 8.0 23.8 2.1 0.8 10.5 32.2 112 105 14.1 8.0 22.1 .183




Season accolades: All-NBA First team

(2009), All-Defensive First team(2009), All-NBA first team(2010), All-

Defensive(2010), All-star starter(2009),All-star starter(2010)*Did not play

due to injury*, 2009 Finals MVP, 2010 Finals MVP.

Playoff stats(2 yr):


Kobe Bryant: Playoffs Per Game (2008-09 to 2009-10)
From To G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2009 2010 46 46 40.5 10.3 22.6 .457 1.9 5.2 .363 8.5 17.5 .485 7.1 8.3 .863 1.0 4.7 5.7 5.5 1.5 0.8 3.0 2.9 29.7

So that's 30/6/5/1.5/0.8/ with just 3.0 TO's on 56% TS. 40 MPG.




Kobe Bryant: Playoffs Advanced (2008-09 to 2009-10)
From To G MP PER TS% eFG% FTr 3PAr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
2009 2010 46 1863 25.8 .565 .499 .365 .228 2.8 13.4 8.1 26.0 2.0 1.6 10.3 33.1 116 106 6.0 2.3 8.3 .214

Best series:

1. The 2009 Western Conference Finals

http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Denver+Nuggets+v+Los+Angeles+Lakers+Game+1+5F_7FiQ tPU2l.jpg

Opponent: Denver Nuggets. ORTG: 110(7TH) DRTG:106(8TH)



34/6/6/1/.5 63% TS. 131 ORTG, 113 DRTG, 27 GmSc

Highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMztsApSZZs

LAL won in six.

Opponents in the playoffs overall:
'09:
Utah ORTG: 110(8TH), DRTG:107(10TH)

Rockets ORTG:108(14TH) DRTG:104(4TH)

Nuggets ORTG:110(7TH) DRTG:106(8TH)

Magic ORTG:109(11TH) DRTG:101(1ST)

'10:
OKC ORTG: 108(12TH) DRTG: 104(9TH)

Jazz ORTG: 110(8TH) DRTG: 105(10TH)

Suns ORTG: 115(1ST) DRTG: 110(23RD)

Celtics ORTG: 107(15TH) DRTG:103(5TH)

2009 was probably Kobe's best run. He just killed it.

[Rocketswin2013]

Now LeBron:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1106/nba-finals-mvp/images/lebron-james-gallery.jpg

http://i.bullfax.com/imgs/d313af05c1107d932bf48481a02d9f88d9f437b4.jpg

Regular season stats(2 yr):


From To G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2012 2013 138 138 37.7 10.0 18.3 .549 1.1 2.9 .390 8.9 15.4 .580 5.7 7.5 .762 1.4 6.6 8.0 6.8 1.8 0.8 3.2 1.5 26.9
27/7/8/1.8/.8/ with 3.2 TO's on 62% TS.




From To G MP PER TS% eFG% FTr 3PAr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
2012 2013 138 5203 31.2 .624 .580 .411 .160 4.7 20.3 12.9 35.2 2.5 1.8 12.8 31.0 122 99 24.6 9.2 33.8 .311

Season accolades:All-NBA first team(2012), All-Defensive(2012), All-NBA first team(2013), All-Defensive(2013), All-star(2012), All-star(2013), NBA MVP(2012), NBA MVP(2013), Finals MVP(2012), Finals MVP(2013).

Playoff stats(2 yr):

From To G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2012 2013 46 46 42.2 10.1 20.3 .496 1.3 3.9 .320 8.8 16.4 .538 6.7 8.9 .756 2.0 7.1 9.1 6.1 1.8 0.7 3.3 2.0 28.1
28/8/6/1.7/.7/ with 3.3 TO's on 58% TS.



From To G MP PER TS% eFG% FTr 3PAr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
2012 2013 46 1943 29.2 .580 .527 .438 .194 5.9 20.1 13.1 29.3 2.4 1.5 11.9 31.3 117 100 7.9 3.1 11.0 .272

Best series: 2012 NBA Eastern Conference Finals

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0905/nba.best.playoff.series/images/lebron-james-eastern-conference-finals.jpg

Opponent: Boston Celtics. ORTG: 101(27TH) DRTG:98(1ST)


Rk Player Age G GS MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST STL BLK
1 LeBron James 27 7 7 321 87 165 9 31 52 80 13 64 77 27 8 9 24 18 235 .527 .290 .650 45.8 33.6 11.0 3.9 1.1 1.3
34/11/4/1.1/1.3/ with 3.3 TO's on 59% TS. 115 ORTG. 101 DRTG.

Highlights from signature game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXBsCRhzJnc

Miami won in 7.

Opponents:
'12:
Knicks ORTG:104(17TH), DRTG:101(5TH)

Pacers ORTG:106(7TH) DRTG:103(9TH)

Celtics ORTG:101(27TH) DRTG:98(1ST)

Thunder ORTG:109(2ND) DRTG:103(11TH)

'13:
Bucks ORTG:103(22ND) DRTG:105(12TH)

Bulls ORTG:103(23RD) DRTG:103(6TH)

Pacers ORTG:104(20TH) DRTG:99(1ST)

Spurs ORTG:108(7TH) DRTG: 101(3RD)

2012 was LeBron's best defensive year

18 mins of great defense in the playoffs :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEs7bZzprWU

[dc_chilling]

The Heat had the more impressive two peat imo.

27 game win streak during the regular season.
Lebron won back to back MVP's.
Beat better teams in the finals (OKC w/Harden, Spurs).


Great post btw. Nice job gathering all the data and being objective.

[zoom17]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2837510/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn-o.gif

[Jacks3]

56.7% TS rounds up to 57%

[NBAplayoffs2001]

One didn't have to succumb to joining his longtime crush to win a championship.

[Rocketswin2013]

lol Kobe's ****ing codes are ruined. About to fix.

[SamuraiSWISH]

One didn't have to succumb to joining his longtime crush to win a championship.
:oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

You've got the wrong series for Kobes best

2010 WCF

34/7/8 on 64% TS

[Rocketswin2013]

You've got the wrong series gor Kobes best

2010 WCF

34/7/8 on 6% TS
His DRTG was over 120 in that.

[TheMarkMadsen]

His DRTG was over 120 in that.

So? And it was 120 btw

Drgt is a team stat that shouldn't be used for individual players

His 2010 WCF was the most impressive series in that span

You could possibly throw in his 32/6/7 finals as being more impressive also

[AintNoSunshine]

56.7% TS rounds up to 57%
:oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Anyways ill go with 08-10

[Rodmantheman]

Anyways ill go with 11-13

[AintNoSunshine]

Lebron

Better acholades: back to back MVP-FMVP-Tital

Better stats over better defensive teams.

More memorable moments: Second longest win streak in history, Deathstare Game, Original Cramp Game, Buzzerbeater GW vs Pacers, Headband Game epic G6 just off the top of my head

Arguably the most dominant 2-year span ever, Kobe who?

[Jacks3]

:oldlol:
:confusedshrug:

[GODbe]

All those stats aren't even needed to come to a conclusion.

One had a superteam/the refs/a shortened season/the Eastern Conference and the other had :facepalm Pau Gasoft:facepalm .

[Meticode]

Pistons > Lakers > Heat

Heat automatically get disqualified because of how weak the East has been the last few years.

[Thorn]

Interesting to note that even though the 13 Heat had that 27 game winning streak, the 09 Lakers only won one less game.

13 Heat 66-16
09 Lakers 65-17

[dubeta]

The one where they didnt have the most stacked frontcourt in the league, and constantly had to win while undersized

[Keno]

lebron simply because it came with back to back mvps too.

[J Shuttlesworth]

34/11 against the #1 defensive team in the league is definitely the best series.


It's still close overall though. Kobe was amazing at that point, but LeBron edges him out slightly in stats.

[Inferno]

LBJ: Better regular season, better Final's stats.

Kobe: Better playoffs overall, better best series.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pretty tough. I have often said that PEAK LeBron (if that is what we're seeing) is better than Kobe ever was...but his frequent houdini acts and often lackadaisical play have made me rethink that position.

By sheer strength of competition, I'd say Kobe had the better "2-peat"

[Milbuck]

It's actually really close.

Kobe's run was really good, 30/6/6/2/1 on 57% TS.
Lebron's was also awesome, 28/9/6/2/1 on 58% TS.

Lebron's got the edge in rebounding, Kobe in scoring, efficiency is surprisingly close with a tiny edge to Lebron, while Kobe's got a slight edge in turning the ball over less.

I think it's really a tossup, but the Western conference competition Kobe had to face tilts it a little in his favor.

Kobe in 2009 faced 48, 53, 54, and 59 win teams. In 2010 he had 50, 50, 53, and 54 win teams.

Lebron in 2012 faced 45, 48, 52, 58 win teams. In 2013 he had 38, 45, 49, and 58 win teams to face.

That's an average of 51 wins for the Western conference teams Kobe faced, 53 wins for all opposing teams finals included.

Lebron's Eastern conference opponents averaged 46 wins, and his opponents overall including the finals averaged 49 wins.

[Lebronxrings]

its basically kobe stans= kobe
everyone else= lebron

[scandisk_]

LBJ has the accolades but it's still the Mamba. That 08-10 run was mighty impressive.

[J Shuttlesworth]

It's actually really close.

Kobe's run was really good, 30/6/6/2/1 on 57% TS.
Lebron's was also awesome, 28/9/6/2/1 on 58% TS.

Lebron's got the edge in rebounding, Kobe in scoring, efficiency is surprisingly close with a tiny edge to Lebron, while Kobe's got a slight edge in turning the ball over less.

I think it's really a tossup, but the Western conference competition Kobe had to face tilts it a little in his favor.

Kobe in 2009 faced 48, 53, 54, and 59 win teams. In 2010 he had 50, 50, 53, and 54 win teams.

Lebron in 2012 faced 45, 48, 52, 58 win teams. In 2013 he had 38, 45, 49, and 58 win teams to face.

That's an average of 51 wins for the Western conference teams Kobe faced, 53 wins for all opposing teams finals included.

Lebron's Eastern conference opponents averaged 46 wins, and his opponents overall including the finals averaged 49 wins.
If we're talking about pure stats, I'm not sure how it's more impressive to have similar stats against Western teams. 2014 is basically the only year in recent memory where the East has had the worse defense of the two conferences.

2012:
New York Knicks: DRTG: 100.5: 5th in the league
Indiana Pacers: DRTG: 103.1: 9th in the league
Boston Celtics: DRTG: 98.2 1st in the league
Oklahoma City Thunder: DRTG: 103.2 10th in the league

2013:
Milwaukee Bucks: DRTG: 105.2 12th in the league
Chicago Bulls: DRTG: 103.2 6th in the league
Indiana Pacers: DRTG: 99.8 1st in the league
San Antonio Spurs: DRTG: 101.2 3rd best in the league

Although they didn't win in 2011, that was their toughest defense they had to face:

Philly 76ers: DRTG: 105 7th in the league
Boston Celtics: DRTG: 100.3 1st in the league
Chicago Bulls: DRTG: 100.3 1st in the league
Dallas Mavericks: DRTG: 105 8th in the league

If anything, if their performances were equal, LeBron should be putting up slightly worse stats considering the tougher defenses. That's not the case, and LeBron is putting up slightly better stats against the tougher defenses.

[The-Legend-24]

After the back2back, Kobe's finals record stands as 5/7.

After the Back2back* Bran's finals record stands as 2*/5.

:oldlol:

[Heavincent]

Kobe played against much tougher competition, so I'll go with him.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If we're talking about pure stats, I'm not sure how it's more impressive to have similar stats against Western teams. 2014 is basically the only year in recent memory where the East has had the worse defense of the two conferences.

2012:
New York Knicks: DRTG: 100.5: 5th in the league
Indiana Pacers: DRTG: 103.1: 9th in the league
Boston Celtics: DRTG: 98.2 1st in the league
Oklahoma City Thunder: DRTG: 103.2 10th in the league

2013:
Milwaukee Bucks: DRTG: 105.2 12th in the league
Chicago Bulls: DRTG: 103.2 6th in the league
Indiana Pacers: DRTG: 99.8 1st in the league
San Antonio Spurs: DRTG: 101.2 3rd best in the league

Although they didn't win in 2011, that was their toughest defense they had to face:

Philly 76ers: DRTG: 105 7th in the league
Boston Celtics: DRTG: 100.3 1st in the league
Chicago Bulls: DRTG: 100.3 1st in the league
Dallas Mavericks: DRTG: 105 8th in the league

If anything, if their performances were equal, LeBron should be putting up slightly worse stats considering the tougher defenses. That's not the case, and LeBron is putting up slightly better stats against the tougher defenses.

There is also something to be said about great offenses making you work defensively, thus having to exude more energy trying to put up individual numbers.

There is no question, the 1-8 seeds in the West had a better combination of ORtg and DRtg (aka better teams)

[Mr. Jabbar]

more impressive? obviously the one that did it with gasol as 2nd option :applause: :applause: :applause: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

oh and in the west

[DFish24]

Close, but Kobe because of superior competition.

[Rodmantheman]

Kobe played against much tougher competition, so I'll go with him.

2013 spurs any team Kobe faced in the 08-10 playoffs.

[J Shuttlesworth]

There is also something to be said about great offenses making you work defensively, thus having to exude more energy trying to put up individual numbers.

There is no question, the 1-8 seeds in the West had a better combination of ORtg and DRtg (aka better teams)
Fair point, but at the same time, Heat were able to beat the 2012 Thunder in 5 games... and that was the best competition in the West that year. From a winning the ring standpoint, I can understand saying the Lakers faced harder teams. If we're just talking about Kobe/LeBron's performance, I can't see how it's more impressive to score similar numbers against easier defenses. Worse defense should lead to more PPG and assists, but Kobe doesn't really edge out LeBron in those categories

[Warfan]

Id rank them

2012
2009
2013/2010 (might have too look up the numbers, but from what I remember it would be pretty tough too choose)

So Ill give the edge to bron since he played better defense and had more impact IMO.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Fair point, but at the same time, Heat were able to beat the 2012 Thunder in 5 games... and that was the best competition in the West that year. From a winning the ring standpoint, I can understand saying the Lakers faced harder teams. If we're just talking about Kobe/LeBron's performance, I can't see how it's more impressive to score similar numbers against easier defenses. Worse defense should lead to more PPG and assists, but Kobe doesn't really edge out LeBron in those categories

No offense, but if you say I had a "fair point", then why the bold?

I literally just explained why that isn't always the case lol

[AnaheimLakers24]

lakers

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Lebron, like shaq, mj, bird & other greats before him he managed to win all the major accolades in one season, the MVP, fmvp & championship. In my eyes that's a true indicator of greatness.

[J Shuttlesworth]

No offense, but if you say I had a "fair point", then why the bold?

I literally just explained why that isn't always the case lol
Because you're right in that offensive teams make you work harder on the offensive end... but so do great defensive teams. Great offensive teams generally play at a faster pace with higher scoring games, so Kobe's scoring should be inflated by that. You said good offense makes you work harder on the scoring end, so why aren't Kobe's scoring numbers significantly greater than LeBron, who is playing tougher defenses?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Because you're right in that offensive teams make you work harder on the offensive end... but so do great defensive teams. Great offensive teams generally play at a faster pace with higher scoring games, so Kobe's scoring should be inflated by that. You said good offense makes you work harder on the scoring end, so why aren't Kobe's scoring numbers significantly greater than LeBron, who is playing tougher defenses?

Well, it's not just great offensive teams, but teams with BOTH an offense and defense. That was my original point. Teams in the west, on average, are better on both ends than teams in the east.

I'm not saying the comparison isn't close or anything, just that I find Kobe's numbers a little more impressive when we take this into account.

[sbw19]

Records of teams faced during 2-peat (number of games series went in parentheses)

___
1st title
Lakers vs Heat
48-34(5) vs 36-30(5)
53-29(7) vs 42-24(6)
54-28(6) vs 39-27(7)
59-23(5) vs 47-19(5)

2nd title
Lakers vs Heat
50-32(6) vs 38-44(4)
53-29(4) vs 45-37(5)
54-28(6) vs 49-32(7)
50-32(7) vs 58-24(7)
___

Draw your own conclusions.

[Milbuck]

Records of teams faced during 2-peat (number of games series went in parentheses)

___
1st title
Lakers vs Heat
48-34(5) vs 36-30(5)
53-29(7) vs 42-24(6)
54-28(6) vs 39-27(7)
59-23(5) vs 47-19(5)

2nd title
Lakers vs Heat
50-32(6) vs 38-44(4)
53-29(4) vs 45-37(5)
54-28(6) vs 49-32(7)
50-32(7) vs 58-24(7)
___

Draw your own conclusions.


The 2012 season was only 66 games..you gotta adjust the wins for the Heat opponents. The 2009 teams Kobe faced still had more wins in every round though.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Well, it's not just great offensive teams, but teams with BOTH an offense and defense. That was my original point. Teams in the west, on average, are better on both ends than teams in the east.

I'm not saying the comparison isn't close or anything, just that I find Kobe's numbers a little more impressive when we take this into account.
Nothing you're saying is wrong when considering Heat vs. Lakers, but when you're talking about LeBron's stats vs. Kobe's, you have to factor in the defense. I agree that the teams in the West are overall better teams, but tougher defensive teams will bring down a player's offensive numbers more than a balanced offense/defense team.

I can't see Kobe's numbers going up if he had to face the eastern defenses. Would the Lakers wins come easier? Sure, but would their numbers be higher? I don't think so

[Inferno]

Digging the serious discussion going on here :applause:

[sbw19]

The 2012 season was only 66 games..you gotta adjust the wins for the Heat opponents. The 2009 teams Kobe faced still had more wins in every round though.
Pretty much. I put the records and not just the wins for a reason. Think Heat would've faced 3 50-win teams adjusted, Lakers opp all but one won at least 50.

[Heavincent]

The 2012 season was only 66 games..you gotta adjust the wins for the Heat opponents. The 2009 teams Kobe faced still had more wins in every round though.

The teams Kobe faced had higher win percentages.

[Milbuck]

Pretty much. I put the records and not just the wins for a reason. Think Heat would've faced 3 50-win teams adjusted, Lakers opp all but one won at least 50.

Just noticed it, don't know why I was thinking wins instead of record.

The teams Kobe faced had higher win percentages.
Yeah, mentioned it in my first post, it's the main reason I give Kobe the slight edge. Production wise it's really close.

[plowking]

The teams Kobe faced had higher win percentages.

The Magic won more games than the Thunder, yet no one in their right mind would tell you the Magic were close to the Thunder in terms of being better. Showing just the record is misleading.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nothing you're saying is wrong when considering Heat vs. Lakers, but when you're talking about LeBron's stats vs. Kobe's, you have to factor in the defense. I agree that the teams in the West are overall better teams, but tougher defensive teams will bring down a player's offensive numbers more than a balanced offense/defense team.

I can't see Kobe's numbers going up if he had to face the eastern defenses. Would the Lakers wins come easier? Sure, but would their numbers be higher? I don't think so

For the sake of argument, I actually looked up Kobe's splits the last season he was healthy (2013), and to my surprise, he shot the ball VERY low against teams in the East (didnt look at his all around numbers, but again, a low shooting percentage--teams that, on average, play better defense).

To some degree, I can see where you're coming from. :cheers:

[TheReal Kendall]

Great discussion but I feel like we should be talking bout the "Laker" and "Heat" as a team and not just about Kobe and LeBron.

Without the team these guys wouldn't have 2-peated. So give credit to the teams as a whole and not just those individuals.

[sbw19]

Not a knock on Miami that the Lakers faced better competition, just shows Western teams were just superior. All the more impressive when you consider that the only non-50 win team LA faced won 48 games and missed the cut by 2.

And for all intents and purposes that 49-win Celtic team Miami faced was basically a 50-win team.

[Ne 1]

2008-2010 Kobe. As far as 3 year runs, the only players I can think of off the top of my head with 3 year runs that I'd say were definitely better were Jordan('91-'93), Shaq('00-'02), Bird('84-'86) and Olajuwon('93-'95).

[J Shuttlesworth]

For the sake of argument, I actually looked up Kobe's splits the last season he was healthy (2013), and to my surprise, he shot the ball VERY low against teams in the East (didnt look at his all around numbers, but again, a low shooting percentage--teams that, on average, play better defense).

To some degree, I can see where you're coming from. :cheers:
How do you find those splits? I've been trying to figure out how to get stats vs. East or West

[J Shuttlesworth]

Great discussion but I feel like we should be talking bout the "Laker" and "Heat" as a team and not just about Kobe and LeBron.

Without the team these guys wouldn't have 2-peated. So give credit to the teams as a whole and not just those individuals.
Agreed. I'd even say the Lakers run was a bit more impressive (though nice that the Heat beat the Thunder in 5). I think LeBron's performance was a bit better than Kobe's, but not by a huge margin or anything.

[BigBoss]

Uh Kobe's obviously, he wasn't playing with 2 all stars in a weak ass East and one lockout season. **** stats.

[VIntageNOvel]

lets see

one lost and beat one of the most stacked team, well coaching, well rounded team (celtic),
villain/cheater/PED user (magic)


while the other
choke the series again old dirk's mavs
shortcut season
miracle

pretty easy i think which one is more impressive
:confusedshrug:

dont forget how lebron needed the game of his life to beat the beat down, old, version of those celtic

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How do you find those splits? I've been trying to figure out how to get stats vs. East or West

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/splits/2013/

Scroll down to the Eastern/Western tabs

They even have division splits which is pretty neat

[plowking]

Not a knock on Miami that the Lakers faced better competition, just shows Western teams were just superior. All the more impressive when you consider that the only non-50 win team LA faced won 48 games and missed the cut by 2.

And for all intents and purposes that 49-win Celtic team Miami faced was basically a 50-win team.


The Lakers didn't face better competition though.

The 48 win Utah team they played, had their 2nd best player injured in the series in Okur. He only played 2 games in the series. He was a big part as to why they were a 48 win team.
Then they play a 53 win Houston team without their best player in Yao Ming for half the series, and without T-Mac. That is hardly a 53 win team, considering they became that good a team because of Yao.
They beat the Nuggets. Good on them, but they historically own the Nuggets, so they should.
Then they face the Orlando Magic. One of the weakest finals opponents in a while along with the 07 Cavs.


Then the next year they beat the Celtics in the finals who a good amount of people actually thought might lose in the first round to the Heat.

[plowking]

The Heat's 2011-2012 run is the toughest of the lot. And Bron put up 30/10/6 that playoff run on 50% shooting.

Easily the most impressive in this comparison.

[VIntageNOvel]

The Heat's 2011-2012 run is the toughest of the lot. And Bron put up 30/10/6 that playoff run on 50% shooting.

Easily the most impressive in this comparison.


from your stat point of view,
lebron must be doing great right in this year final :rolleyes:

[tpols]

The Lakers didn't face better competition though.

The 48 win Utah team they played, had their 2nd best player injured in the series in Okur. He only played 2 games in the series. He was a big part as to why they were a 48 win team.
Then they play a 53 win Houston team without their best player in Yao Ming for half the series, and without T-Mac. That is hardly a 53 win team, considering they became that good a team because of Yao.
They beat the Nuggets. Good on them, but they historically own the Nuggets, so they should.
Then they face the Orlando Magic. One of the weakest finals opponents in a while along with the 07 Cavs.


Then the next year they beat the Celtics in the finals who a good amount of people actually thought might lose in the first round to the Heat.

The Celtics in 08 were taken to 7 by the hawks in the first round.. the spurs this year were taken to 7 by dallas in the first round..

That doesnt indicate strength of team. Some teams get going as the playoffs go along.. San Anotonio was waaay better in the Finals than they were in the first round. And Boston was on a rampage in the east after beating the heat and then nearly eliminated LA in the Finals(they were even up 3-2)

The Celtics are known for starting slow and getting their shit together in the end.. they did it again this year in brooklyn going from looking like a non playoff team to one of best second half records and decent in the playoffs.

[VIntageNOvel]

The Magic won more games than the Thunder, yet no one in their right mind would tell you the Magic were close to the Thunder in terms of being better. Showing just the record is misleading.


yes of course the team that beat the shit out of 61 win-bran led cavs is worse than the one that was beaten by bran :hammerhead:

[Heavincent]

The Magic won more games than the Thunder, yet no one in their right mind would tell you the Magic were close to the Thunder in terms of being better. Showing just the record is misleading.

Sure, but the other 3 teams weren't that good. A younger and inferior version of the Pacers (who still aren't title contenders btw), and an old and over the hill Celtics team. Oh yeah, and the Bucks...I don't think I need to elaborate any further on that :oldlol: (sorry Milbuck)

[plowking]

Sure, but the other 3 teams weren't that good. A younger and inferior version of the Pacers (who still aren't title contenders btw), and an old and over the hill Celtics team. Oh yeah, and the Bucks...I don't think I need to elaborate any further on that :oldlol: (sorry Milbuck)

The Knicks in 2012 are better than than the 09 Jazz without Okur, the second leading scorer on the Jazz.
The Pacers in 2012 are better than the 09 Rockets without T-Mac for the whole series, and Yao for half the series.
The Nuggets in 2009 are better than the 12 Celtics.
And the Thunder in 2012 are better than the 2009 Magic.

[sbw19]

The Lakers didn't face better competition though.

The 48 win Utah team they played, had their 2nd best player injured in the series in Okur. He only played 2 games in the series. He was a big part as to why they were a 48 win team.
Then they play a 53 win Houston team without their best player in Yao Ming for half the series, and without T-Mac. That is hardly a 53 win team, considering they became that good a team because of Yao.
They beat the Nuggets. Good on them, but they historically own the Nuggets, so they should.
Then they face the Orlando Magic. One of the weakest finals opponents in a while along with the 07 Cavs.


Then the next year they beat the Celtics in the finals who a good amount of people actually thought might lose in the first round to the Heat.

Do I really have to go through the list of injured players Miami didn't have to face during their every Finals run to make a moot point even less relevant?

[Droid101]

plowking is a homer bitch. Don't respond to his shit. We had a good, rational discussion going on until he ****ed it up.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

The Knicks in 2012 are better than than the 09 Jazz without Okur, the second leading scorer on the Jazz.
The Pacers in 2012 are better than the 09 Rockets without T-Mac for the whole series, and Yao for half the series.
The Nuggets in 2009 are better than the 12 Celtics.
And the Thunder in 2012 are better than the 2009 Magic.
Good post & it's worth mentioning that Bosh missed a large portion of the 2012 Pacers & Celtics series.

[plowking]

Do I really have to go through the list of injured players Miami didn't have to face during their every Finals run to make a moot point even less relevant?

How about talking about the actual competition they did face? You're going to bring up that Rose was injured and what not, yet the Heat didn't play them in the 2012 run I'm talking about. 2013 is a fair point though.

Miami's 2012 run, they played a healthy team in each round. You can bring up the higher wins for the Lakers' 2009 run, but the fact is, the 2nd best player for the Jazz was out, hence they aren't really a 48 win team without him. Then you have the Rockets who are without Yao... Are they even a playoff team without him?

Miami's competition in 2012 is better than any in this comparison.

EDIT: And as MilkyBarKid added, the Heat were without Bosh for a large chunk of the Boston series, and against the Pacers. Already lacking size, and their best big man goes down for a large chunk of the playoffs. Once again, 2012 is more impressive than any of the runs.

[plowking]

plowking is a homer bitch. Don't respond to his shit. We had a good, rational discussion going on until he ****ed it up.

Not really. I'm the one that brought any reasoning to it.

It's like claiming to beat the 72 win Bulls when Jordan wasn't playing in the game. Not really the same thing. Just like the Rockets without Yao. You expect them to be a 53 win team without him?

Loser.

[livinglegend]

plowking owning people again:applause: :applause:

[LakersFan626]

The Lakers didn't face better competition though.

The 48 win Utah team they played, had their 2nd best player injured in the series in Okur. He only played 2 games in the series. He was a big part as to why they were a 48 win team.
Then they play a 53 win Houston team without their best player in Yao Ming for half the series, and without T-Mac. That is hardly a 53 win team, considering they became that good a team because of Yao.
They beat the Nuggets. Good on them, but they historically own the Nuggets, so they should.
Then they face the Orlando Magic. One of the weakest finals opponents in a while along with the 07 Cavs.

Then the next year they beat the Celtics in the finals who a good amount of people actually thought might lose in the first round to the Heat.

Boozer was better... Okur was very soft and mainly shot threes, while at least Boozer rebounded.

Most people thought Miami/Boston would be 2nd round or ECF, and many also thought Boston would beat them.

08-10 Kobe is slightly superior because of the tougher competition.

[Swaggaboy80six]

Lebron was lucky that Al Jefferson got injured in this years playoffs, remember now, they were losing until he got injured....lmao lebronze is a joke, if this were the 80s he'd be a bench player

[Rose'sACL]

Lebron was lucky that Al Jefferson got injured in this years playoffs, remember now, they were losing until he got injured....lmao lebronze is a joke, if this were the 80s he'd be a bench player
are you blind or just an idiot? read the thread title.
Heat have actually lost in the finals when they got there easily whereas when they played more games than the WCF champs, they won the finals. this east vs west thing really doesn't matter in their title runs as they played more games than the team they played in the finals.
I could have understood this reason if they won in 2011 or 2014 though.

[SexSymbol]

Kobe faced ten times the competition.
He was better overall in the Playoffs against that competition. And his defense was better than what LEBron showed us in the last PO's
Plus that wasn't the best Kobe series, why the hell would you put it up.

[Element]

The Heat's 2011-2012 run is the toughest of the lot. And Bron put up 30/10/6 that playoff run on 50% shooting.

Easily the most impressive in this comparison.

No

In 2012 LeBron's toughest opponent was a broken down Celtics team that had no business taking him to 7. Ray and Paul were injured and played like dog s.hit and even their defensive stopper in Avery Bradley was out. They took Miami to 7 because of Rondo and KG. Yes Bosh was missing early on but so what?

A team led by Bron/Wade and 2 games of Bosh should still easily be better than a team led by Rondo and an ancient KG. Not to mention the Celtics defense actually keyed in on Wade during that series and not LeBron, due to the ass-raping he had given the Celts in both 2010 and 2011.

LeBron easily had the greatest game between the runs with his Game 6 against Boston but his 2012 PO was not that special given the circumstances. Injury-decimated Knicks team coached by Woodson, the Pacers before PG/Lance were worth anything, aforementioned 50 year-old Celtics and OKC. Out of those opponents, only OKC should've been tough to deal with but ironically they were the ones to get backdoor swept lol. I realize those Celtics were much better after the ASB that year but that was with Allen off the bench and healthy, Pierce healthy and Avery Bradley starting and healthy.

ranks, imo:

1a) 09 Kobe
1b) 12 LeBron
2) 2010 Kobe
3) 2013 LeBron

[9erempiree]

I have to go with Kobe. I hate stats and if you throw all the stats from both players out the window, I would still take Kobe and most fans would to.

Lets put this in perspective for both players and what the narrative for them were:

Kobe- people said that he couldn't win without Shaq and he proved everyone wrong. While on his way to his 4th and 5th title, he had amazing seasons and series leading up to both Finals. Finally capping it all off in game 7 and willing his team to victory.

Lebron- wins MVP and the Finals in a shorten season against OKC, who were a year too early for the Finals. Wins another championship against the Spurs who dared him to shoot. Duncan missed a layup that would have sealed the deal. Ray Allen hits a crucial 3 to seal the deal.

You can throw out the stats and just watch the games and you would know, while Lebron put up good stats, the stats is giving him more credit than he deserves.

No surprise everyone who participated on this thread gives the edge to Kobe.

[K Xerxes]

Kobe's was more impressive, but LeBron was overall the better player in those stretches. Am I the only one who sees the distinction?

[GimmeThat]

Kobe can't do what Lebron did. We've seen his prime.

As of right now, it doesn't appear Lebron can do what Kobe did.
If he was a savy basketball player, he would have 3peated even if he decided to opt out.

Now there's nothing to say he could even 2peat again. Unless he decides to stay with the Heat, team up with Durant, or head to the Lakers. Even with the Bulls it's highly doubtful.

Where as you get Kobe a great supporting cast. I can see him doing it again.



"That's what people said about Kobe"

[iggy>]

Lebron won 2 straight regular season mvps and finals mvps. Hard to argue against that.

[All Net]

Good times...:pimp:

[ArbitraryWater]

This is Lebron, not close either.

2012 is a top 3 GOAT run

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe's was more impressive, but LeBron was overall the better player in those stretches. Am I the only one who sees the distinction?

Yep... I always had much more in mind for LeBron.

He fully exceeded my expectations in 2012, but he ****ed up 2011, and honestly, I thought 2013 would be like 2012, and it wasn't...

Heck, I even thought 2014 would end up to be better than it was.

You just naturally hold them to different standarts, as LeBron's ceiling and possibilities are much higher, the highest ever.

In that case, he could have done more, while Kobe played like I imagined he would. Like a top 15 player in his prime would.

I don't blame LeBron for his 2011 stats pre-finals, he closed games out like a boss while adjusting and defering to another perimeter great in his prime that needs shots himself, in a new team.

Even though he does what's needed when it matters/counts, it would be nice to see him take 20+ shots every run/series/game.

14.8 vs Bucks, 16.0 vs Bulls...
17.5 vs Bobcats, 17.2 vs Nets, 15.5 vs Pacers, 18.2 vs Spurs...

Why wouldn't you use the abilities of one of the greatest scorers to its full potential/maximum? Who would you rather have taking shots than LeBron?
The team has always been better with LeBron in aggressive scoring mode first.

Efficiency isn't the problem, it's never been. Volume is. You need to find the right balance and mix of volume/efficiency for scoring/points.

[Warfan]

This is Lebron, not close either.

2012 is a top 3 GOAT run

https://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1367/86/1367868067893.gif

You aren't serious, right??

No doubt he was a beast, but cmon...

[ArbitraryWater]

https://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1367/86/1367868067893.gif

You aren't serious, right??

No doubt he was a beast, but cmon...

It's somewhat close..

But about the 2012 Run?

I'm not the only one of that opinion.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9357345/greatest-individual-postseasons-1-5

And read this epic piece:

http://hoops-nation.com/community/topic/43514-putting-lebrons-legendary-title-run-into-its-proper-context/

[SamuraiSWISH]

Performance in Championship Run:

1) LeBron's 2012
2) Kobe's 2009
3) Kobe's 2010
4) LeBron's 2013

Performance in a Finals Loss:

1) Kobe's 2008 - L
2) LeBron's 2014 - L
3) LeBron's 2011 - L

Considering Kobe was just exiting his prime, and LeBron was still in his physical prime, I give the edge to Kobe. More impressive. LeBron is held to a higher standard, being the better player and given his regular seasons. He underperformed.

Best Playoff Series: Kobe's 2010 WCF v.s. Phoenix
Best Individual Game: LeBron's 2012 game 6 ECF v.s. Boston

[ArbitraryWater]

Performance in Championship Run:

1) LeBron's 2012
2) Kobe's 2009
3) Kobe's 2010
4) LeBron's 2013

Performance in a Finals Loss:

1) Kobe's 2008 - L
2) LeBron's 2014 - L
3) LeBron's 2011 - L

Considering Kobe was just exiting his prime, and LeBron was still in his physical prime, I give the edge to Kobe. More impressive. LeBron is held to a higher standard, being the better player and given his regular seasons. He underperformed.

Best Playoff Series: Kobe's 2010 WCF v.s. Phoenix
Best Individual Game: LeBron's 2012 game 6 ECF v.s. Boston
Best Finals Series: LeBron's 2012 v.s. OKC


The one I don't get

How was Kobe 2008 better than LeBron 2014?

Kobe in his last 3 games couldn't even shoot 39% once...

He was 6-19, 8-21 and 7-22... doesn't make sense. Didn't put up huge numbers either.

[Warfan]

It's somewhat close..

But about the 2012 Run?

I'm not the only one of that opinion.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9357345/greatest-individual-postseasons-1-5

And read this epic piece:

http://hoops-nation.com/community/topic/43514-putting-lebrons-legendary-title-run-into-its-proper-context/

The 2nd link didn't work and I dnt have ESPN insider

But what about 03 Duncan? 94 & 95 Hakeem? 93 MJ? 00 Shaq? And arguably another year or 2 from MJ and Shaq. And that's just the past 20 years...

[ArbitraryWater]

The 2nd link didn't work and I dnt have ESPN insider

But what about 03 Duncan? 94 & 95 Hakeem? 93 MJ? 00 Shaq? And arguably another year or 2 from MJ and Shaq. And that's just the past 20 years...

Well you saw the ESPN Insider thread right?

Here, I'll PM you the article.. Just saw its from the vault.

Dont spread it around though, its there for a reason I guess lol.

edit: way too long to fit as pm..

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe in his last 3 games couldn't even shoot 39% once...

He was 6-19, 8-21 and 7-22... doesn't make sense. Didn't put up huge numbers either.
Because Kobe was competing like it mattered to him. It wasn't "just basketball, man" and all that childish passive aggressive, cowardly, dismissive, poor sportsmanship when losing.

Kobe had even less supplemental help in those Finals than the talent LeBron had on this 2014 team. Gasol was MIA, intimidated by KG. Ariza, and Bynum were hurt. Who did he have? Sasha Vujachick? I'd take 40 year old Ray Allen over that guy.

He also faced a superior defense. Both interior, and on the perimeter. Particularly defensive attention from a rotation of guys like James Posey, Tony Allen. Great on ball defenders, with different styles consistently giving him different looks. A more physical team, and overall, IMO the 2008 Celtics were simply a better team than the 2014 Spurs.

Besides the fact that everything preceeding the last 3 games of those Finals, Kobe's 2008 run was better than LeBron's 2014 playoffs. EASILY. No contest. Remove LeCock from your mouth for a sec, and think.

[Ne 1]

Because Kobe was competing like it mattered to him. It wasn't "just basketball, man" and all that childish passive aggressive, cowardly, dismissive, poor sportsmanship when losing.

Kobe had even less supplemental help in those Finals than the talent LeBron had on this 2014 team. Gasol was MIA, intimidated by KG. Ariza, and Bynum were hurt. Who did he have? Sasha Vujachick? I'd take 40 year old Ray Allen over that guy.

He also faced a superior defense. Both interior, and on the perimeter. Particularly defensive attention from a rotation of guys like James Posey, Tony Allen. Great on ball defenders, with different styles consistently giving him different looks. A more physical team, and overall, IMO the 2008 Celtics were simply a better team than the 2014 Spurs.

Besides the fact that everything preceeding the last 3 games of those Finals, Kobe's 2008 run was better than LeBron's 2014 playoffs. EASILY. No contest. Remove LeCock from your mouth for a sec, and think.
Yeah, I've criticized Kobe for his 2004 Finals, he was horrendous, but 2008 was not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. I never held this series against him. First of all, where was his help? There was no Laker who played well enough to prevent that legendary Celtic defense from swarming him. Gasol reverted to Gasoft in that series and got bullied by KG making Kobe's poor shooting series perfectly understandable. Look at what LeBron did vs that Celtic defense, he shot under 36% and averaged over 5 turnovers. The Celtics loaded up on Kobe because he wasn't getting enough help. So yes, he shot the ball poorly, but with one of the greatest defensive teams of all time focusing almost entirely on one player, it's not a big deal in terms of his legacy. Boston also had a much more talented team with the Lakers missing Bynum and Ariza.

[Bosnian Sajo]

If we're talking about pure stats, I'm not sure how it's more impressive to have similar stats against Western teams. 2014 is basically the only year in recent memory where the East has had the worse defense of the two conferences.



Are you sure about that, ****boy?

[GimmeThat]

you people are making "colluding" and "stacking" a team is bad for the league argument really weak.


but then that's how a GM/Owner/President should think anyways.

[plowking]

Because Kobe was competing like it mattered to him. It wasn't "just basketball, man" and all that childish passive aggressive, cowardly, dismissive, poor sportsmanship when losing.

Wow. Wrong.


Kobe had even less supplemental help in those Finals than the talent LeBron had on this 2014 team. Gasol was MIA, intimidated by KG. Ariza, and Bynum were hurt. Who did he have? Sasha Vujachick? I'd take 40 year old Ray Allen over that guy.


Wow, wrong again.


and overall, IMO the 2008 Celtics were simply a better team than the 2014 Spurs.

Wow, 3rd time being wrong in one post.


Besides the fact that everything preceeding the last 3 games of those Finals, Kobe's 2008 run was better than LeBron's 2014 playoffs. EASILY. No contest. Remove LeCock from your mouth for a sec, and think.

:oldlol:

This one is so wrong it's funny. 2014 Bron was having one of the greatest runs ever before the finals. Even after the finals it is still up there in terms of great playoff runs.

[tpols]

Bran was having one of the best runs ever against the bobcats, old nets, and imploding pacers

His FG was incredible in one of the weakest conferences of all time:lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Bran was having one of the best runs ever against the bobcats, old nets, and imploding pacers

His FG was incredible in one of the weakest conferences of all time:lol

His FG% against the Spurs was the highest of any team you flying retard.

And that's with taking the most FGA against them as well

[turnaroundJ]

Wow. Wrong.



Wow, wrong again.



Wow, 3rd time being wrong in one post.



:oldlol:

This one is so wrong it's funny. 2014 Bron was having one of the greatest runs ever before the finals. Even after the finals it is still up there in terms of great playoff runs.

Where's the part where you explain why he's wrong in any of those points?

[plowking]

Where's the part where you explain why he's wrong in any of those points?

I don't need to explain anything. Not to someone who actually thinks Kobe in the 2008 final was better than Bron in the 2014 one. :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

The teams Kobe faced had higher win percentages.
w/o looking it up, SOS might have a say in win%.

[Rocketswin2013]

So? And it was 120 btw

Drgt is a team stat that shouldn't be used for individual players

His 2010 WCF was the most impressive series in that span

You could possibly throw in his 32/6/7 finals as being more impressive also
If i would have did his Suns one, people would have just said it was against a bad D. Denver had a pretty solid D so it was more impressive.

[VIntageNOvel]

His FG% against the Spurs was the highest of any team you flying retard.

And that's with taking the most FGA against them as well


with those historically great FG, surely he won FMVP right?:applause:

[VIntageNOvel]

I don't need to explain anything. Not to someone who actually thinks Kobe in the 2008 final was better than Bron in the 2014 one. :oldlol:


your argument is

wrong

wrong

wrong

wrong

this is euroleague level of argument here
:lol



bran stan is funny, a week ago they're disappear, even some heat fans like aj cursed the shit of bran, what his excuse again? cramp? diarrhea :lol , and after sometimes, they tried to bring stat to revise history, and now he had historically good final series? :lol

the boy he matched up with won FMVP and shit on him on both side of the court :lol
talk about kevin love of east :applause:
of course he have a great series, losing FMVP to a boy who chew his own tongue:roll:

he even looked shook, but but his FG bla bla :roll:
http://tuesdayswithhorry.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/lebronkawhi.gif

[tpols]

His FG% against the Spurs was the highest of any team you flying retard.

And that's with taking the most FGA against them as well

His FG against the spurs was incredibly inflated from not shooting the ball(or play aggressively in general) when his team desperately needed him to and taking only the best 12-15 shots a game he could find regardless of circumstance.

[SexSymbol]

Wow. Wrong.



Wow, wrong again.



Wow, 3rd time being wrong in one post.



:oldlol:

This one is so wrong it's funny. 2014 Bron was having one of the greatest runs ever before the finals. Even after the finals it is still up there in terms of great playoff runs.
You are wrong 4 times in one post.

[VIntageNOvel]

subjectively 2014 bron is not as bad as his 2007 and 2011 series,
but in term of impact, aside from game 2 he had as much impact as manu or diaw, neck to neck with 2004 kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

His FG against the spurs was incredibly inflated from not shooting the ball(or play aggressively in general) when his team desperately needed him to and taking only the best 12-15 shots a game he could find regardless of circumstance.

of course it was.......


had the most fga and highest fg% against the spurs than vs any other team, but somehow it was inflated........ in the nba finals............ while not even attempting to score in the 4th when the game was over.

where could the padding come from?

[G-Funk]

both teams, 09-10 beat 12-13.

[Indian guy]

and taking only the best 12-15 shots a game he could find regardless of circumstance.

Huh? I guess a lot of those best 12-15 shots a game were mid-range jumpers and 3pters :rolleyes:. 55 of LeBron's 91 FGA in the finals were jumpers. He was making everything in the series, and the far majority of those makes were coming with the games competitive. He also averaged 18.1 FGA per game, not 12-15. That's more than what he averaged in the regular season, despite sitting out majority of the 4th qtrs in 3 of the 5 games of the series.

Seriously Kobetards, I know this is dead depressing for you guys, but get the **** over LeBron passing your boy. You lost. Time to move on.

[VIntageNOvel]

Huh? I guess a lot of those best 12-15 shots a game were mid-range jumpers and 3pters :rolleyes:. 55 of LeBron's 91 FGA in the finals were jumpers. He was making everything in the series, and the far majority of those makes were coming with the games competitive. He also averaged 18.1 FGA per game, not 12-15. That's more than what he averaged in the regular season, despite sitting out majority of the 4th qtrs in 3 of the 5 games of the series.


hows his defense? did he make crucial stop when they need it?

then post kawhi reg season FG, playoff , against thunder, and compared it to final

[VIntageNOvel]

okay serious question,

what do you think the heat's problem in the final?

general consensus i think it was the defense right? they make the spurs had the best FG final ever

but how do you explain the offensive side? they hardly reach 90 each game

[Indian guy]

hows his defense? did he make crucial stop when they need it?

For the most part, I thought his defense was excellent in the Finals. The 2 good games Kawhi had on him, he was making well contested shots. Nothing you can about that.

And I wasn't aware it was up to 1 player to get the crucial stops in the series :rolleyes:. Spurs statically had the GOAT offensive series for a Finals. Miami's defense as a whole was obliterated.

[Hey Yo]

your argument is

wrong

wrong

wrong

wrong

this is euroleague level of argument here
:lol



bran stan is funny, a week ago they're disappear, even some heat fans like aj cursed the shit of bran, what his excuse again? cramp? diarrhea :lol , and after sometimes, they tried to bring stat to revise history, and now he had historically good final series? :lol

the boy he matched up with won FMVP and shit on him on both side of the court :lol
talk about kevin love of east :applause:
of course he have a great series, losing FMVP to a boy who chew his own tongue:roll:

he even looked shook, but but his FG bla bla :roll:
http://tuesdayswithhorry.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/lebronkawhi.gif
That GIF is from the 2013 Finals. You know, when he won his 2nd title and 2nd FMVP in a row.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Huh? I guess a lot of those best 12-15 shots a game were mid-range jumpers and 3pters :rolleyes:. 55 of LeBron's 91 FGA in the finals were jumpers. He was making everything in the series, and the far majority of those makes were coming with the games competitive. He also averaged 18.1 FGA per game, not 12-15. That's more than what he averaged in the regular season, despite sitting out majority of the 4th qtrs in 3 of the 5 games of the series.

Seriously Kobetards, I know this is dead depressing for you guys, but get the **** over LeBron passing your boy. You lost. Time to move on.

Lebron being better than Kobe all-time is debatable.

Definitely not a "for sure" thing as you are conveying.

[tpols]

Huh? I guess a lot of those best 12-15 shots a game were mid-range jumpers and 3pters :rolleyes:. 55 of LeBron's 91 FGA in the finals were jumpers. He was making everything in the series, and the far majority of those makes were coming with the games competitive. He also averaged 18.1 FGA per game, not 12-15. That's more than what he averaged in the regular season, despite sitting out majority of the 4th qtrs in 3 of the 5 games of the series.

Seriously Kobetards, I know this is dead depressing for you guys, but get the **** over LeBron passing your boy. You lost. Time to move on.

Bran left game 1 in crunch time.. Played great in game 2 (the only game where he was truly aggressive and dominant) and then he was getting torched by an offensive role player for the rest of the series while taking 4 or 5 shots in whole first halves while his team was getting blown out and desperately needed a spark.

But if you look at the stats he looks like the perimeter version of Shaq.. Boxscore vs reality you choose.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron being better than Kobe all-time is debatable.

Definitely not a "for sure" thing as you are conveying.

This.

I take Lebron at his peak, no doubt for me there, but the scope of Kobe's career and longevity and ability to get shit done also matters.

As for what seems to have transformed into Kobe from 08 through 11 vs Lebron from 11 through 14...

Lebron was the overall better player during those individual 4 year runs, but I think the Lakers, as a team, were actually slightly more impressive. The 10 Celtics were better than any team the Heat beat during this 4 year stretch...quite considerably in my opinion.

The two really great teams the Heat faced...they got murked. 3-8 against the 11 Mavs and 14 Spurs. That matters.

And so does the Lakers getting murked by the 08 Celtics and 11 Mavs, but the difference, in my opinion, is that the Lakers beat the 10 Celtics. And I just don't put the 13 Spurs or 12 Thunder on that level...and they beat the 08 Spurs...a team better, even with a hobbled Manu, than any East team they played the last 3 years.

[9erempiree]

The Finals just ended weeks ago and it is perplexing that Lebron fans still feel the need to bring up his stats.

Did you guys not watch the game? I bring it up because I know you guys didn't forget.

How soon people forget that Lebron would stop shooting and in garbage time would fill up his stat sheet. The last thing to do is bring up Lebron's stats in an argument like this because it would hurt him.

I even left the stats out and still got Kobe.

Please stop using stats to justify for Lebron. Without those he is nothing. Nobody brings up Kobe and MJ's stats and judge them on that. They are beyond the boxscores.

When you guys can learn this, we can have a civil discussion.

[9erempiree]

Bran left game 1 in crunch time.. Played great in game 2 (the only game where he was truly aggressive and dominant) and then he was getting torched by an offensive role player for the rest of the series while taking 4 or 5 shots in whole first halves while his team was getting blown out and desperately needed a spark.

But if you look at the stats he looks like the perimeter version of Shaq.. Boxscore vs reality you choose.

Pretty much this.

Lebron has diluted the stat sheet.

[JT123]

This.

I take Lebron at his peak, no doubt for me there, but the scope of Kobe's career and longevity and ability to get shit done also matters.

As for what seems to have transformed into Kobe from 08 through 11 vs Lebron from 11 through 14...

Lebron was the overall better player during those individual 4 year runs, but I think the Lakers, as a team, were actually slightly more impressive. The 10 Celtics were better than any team the Heat beat during this 4 year stretch...quite considerably in my opinion.

The two really great teams the Heat faced...they got murked. 3-8 against the 11 Mavs and 14 Spurs. That matters.

And so does the Lakers getting murked by the 08 Celtics and 11 Mavs, but the difference, in my opinion, is that the Lakers beat the 10 Celtics. And I just don't put the 13 Spurs or 12 Thunder on that level...and they beat the 08 Spurs...a team better, even with a hobbled Manu, than any East team they played the last 3 years.
The 10 Celtics are being laughably overrated. They were no where near as good as the 08 team that won the title, but they got to the Finals anyway because the East was weak with no other team having more than one HOF player. The 13 Spurs would destroy the 10 Celtics, not a doubt in my mind.

[plowking]

His FG against the spurs was incredibly inflated from not shooting the ball(or play aggressively in general) when his team desperately needed him to and taking only the best 12-15 shots a game he could find regardless of circumstance.

Well, that is also wrong, considering his FG% was better when the game was tight.

[TheMarkMadsen]

This.

I take Lebron at his peak, no doubt for me there, but the scope of Kobe's career and longevity and ability to get shit done also matters.

As for what seems to have transformed into Kobe from 08 through 11 vs Lebron from 11 through 14...

Lebron was the overall better player during those individual 4 year runs, but I think the Lakers, as a team, were actually slightly more impressive. The 10 Celtics were better than any team the Heat beat during this 4 year stretch...quite considerably in my opinion.

The two really great teams the Heat faced...they got murked. 3-8 against the 11 Mavs and 14 Spurs. That matters.

And so does the Lakers getting murked by the 08 Celtics and 11 Mavs, but the difference, in my opinion, is that the Lakers beat the 10 Celtics. And I just don't put the 13 Spurs or 12 Thunder on that level...and they beat the 08 Spurs...a team better, even with a hobbled Manu, than any East team they played the last 3 years.

08-10 :confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

His FG against the spurs was incredibly inflated from not shooting the ball(or play aggressively in general) when his team desperately needed him to and taking only the best 12-15 shots a game he could find regardless of circumstance.
Besides game 2? Bingo. They needed LeBron to be a high volume scorer. Dude was busy being passive at the wrong times, or making concious efforts to protect his FG percentage. He'd come out the gates hot, then for no particular reason just stop shooting, or being aggressive.

[9erempiree]

You guys should go back and read the game threads. Nothing but people talking about how he stopped shooting.

Game threads don't lie.

People trying to rewrite history but there is evidence.:facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This.

I take Lebron at his peak, no doubt for me there, but the scope of Kobe's career and longevity and ability to get shit done also matters.

As for what seems to have transformed into Kobe from 08 through 11 vs Lebron from 11 through 14...

Lebron was the overall better player during those individual 4 year runs, but I think the Lakers, as a team, were actually slightly more impressive. The 10 Celtics were better than any team the Heat beat during this 4 year stretch...quite considerably in my opinion.

The two really great teams the Heat faced...they got murked. 3-8 against the 11 Mavs and 14 Spurs. That matters.

And so does the Lakers getting murked by the 08 Celtics and 11 Mavs, but the difference, in my opinion, is that the Lakers beat the 10 Celtics. And I just don't put the 13 Spurs or 12 Thunder on that level...and they beat the 08 Spurs...a team better, even with a hobbled Manu, than any East team they played the last 3 years.

What do you think about the original premise: 08-10 vs 11-13?

A few pages back, I argued that Kobe faced better competition, but struggled with how much credit he should get. Should he receive the same amount as the Lakers? Because while LeBron faced squads who were inept on the offensive end, he also faced better defenses, defenses who hinder your all-around production.

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq's 2004 Finals and LeBron's 2014 Finals are eerily similar... Yet Bron was stat padding with no impact and we got Samurai in this thread saying Kobe's 2008 finals were better :roll:



ISH in a nutshell

[DMAVS41]

What do you think about the original premise: 08-10 vs 11-13?

A few pages back, I argued that Kobe faced better competition, but struggled with how much credit he should get. Should he receive the same amount as the Lakers? Because while LeBron faced squads who were inept on the offensive end, he also faced better defenses, defenses who hinder your all-around production.

Well, it's really tough. The 11 choke skews this...because what Lebron individually did in 12 and 13 was hugely impressive and it's hardly a lock that Kobe even at his peak would have been able to win either of this years.

In 12 without Bosh against an under-rated Celtics team.
Then just going through 13 with a hobbled/slumping supporting cast and having to beat the Pacers/Spurs...who I actually think were slightly tougher competition than the 09 Nuggets and 09 Magic.

But the 11 finals are just so hard to overlook...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Saying Lebron statpadded is a joke. Questioning his aggression and the lapses he had is valid AND fair.

Dude became "waldo" for HUGE chunks of that series :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Besides game 2? Bingo. They needed LeBron to be a high volume scorer. Dude was busy being passive at the wrong times, or making concious efforts to protect his FG percentage. He'd come out the gates hot, then for no particular reason just stop shooting, or being aggressive.

Yep.

You can't ignore that. Lebron should have dropped 60 at some point in the finals. The fact that his highest scoring game was 35 is just silly...and that was a game they won. Which actually makes the other games even worse. He literally should have been taking 10 more shots per game in those losses.

[JT123]

Shaq's 2004 Finals and LeBron's 2014 Finals are eerily similar... Yet Bron was stat padding with no impact and we got Samurai in this thread saying Kobe's 2008 finals were better :roll:



ISH in a nutshell
Does anyone actually take that guys basketball analysis seriously? :oldlol:
This is the same guy who said this years Heat team with a broken down Wade is more stacked than any of Jordan's Bulls teams in the 90's. :facepalm
He also said that Wade and Bosh were the second and third best players in the Eastern Conference! :roll:

[tpols]

Well, that is also wrong, considering his FG% was better when the game was tight.
He was taking 3-4 shots when the game was tight in their last three losses.

2/3 = 66% FG = GOAT.

Amazing.

[ArbitraryWater]

Does anyone actually take that guys basketball analysis seriously? :oldlol:
This is the same guy who said this years Heat team with a broken down Wade is more stacked than any of Jordan's Bulls teams in the 90's. :facepalm
He also said that Wade and Bosh were the second and third best players in the Eastern Conference! :roll:

Its also the same guy who compared Kobe and LeBron with some Batman/Superman analogy... I remember when he said something along the lines of ' You need to have will power, killer instinct and determination to win' ........






















ok.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yep.

You can't ignore that. Lebron should have dropped 60 at some point in the finals. The fact that his highest scoring game was 35 is just silly...and that was a game they won. Which actually makes the other games even worse. He literally should have been taking 10 more shots per game in those losses.


If you think LeBron should have dropped 60 then surely you must have him top 3 with Jordan/Kareem considering the expectations would never be as big for a Kobe, Hakeem, which is where you have LeBron ATM

[JT123]

He was taking 3-4 shots when the game was tight in their last three losses.

2/3 = 66% FG = GOAT.

Amazing.
Well most of those games were blowouts by the 2nd quarter so...

[ArbitraryWater]

This.

I take Lebron at his peak, no doubt for me there, but the scope of Kobe's career and longevity and ability to get shit done also matters.

As for what seems to have transformed into Kobe from 08 through 11 vs Lebron from 11 through 14...

Lebron was the overall better player during those individual 4 year runs, but I think the Lakers, as a team, were actually slightly more impressive. The 10 Celtics were better than any team the Heat beat during this 4 year stretch...quite considerably in my opinion.

The two really great teams the Heat faced...they got murked. 3-8 against the 11 Mavs and 14 Spurs. That matters.

And so does the Lakers getting murked by the 08 Celtics and 11 Mavs, but the difference, in my opinion, is that the Lakers beat the 10 Celtics. And I just don't put the 13 Spurs or 12 Thunder on that level...and they beat the 08 Spurs...a team better, even with a hobbled Manu, than any East team they played the last 3 years.


:oldlol:

Explain to me how the Mavericks were "truly great" ?

Why do you mention them among the 2014 Spurs?

Overall your comment is very confusing and overthought... Its like your searching for stuff to put against LeBron, and at the same time forgetting its a team sport... LeBron's cast this year was considerably weaker than Kobe's, who had the most stacked team in the league from 08-10.

[JT123]

Yep.

You can't ignore that. Lebron should have dropped 60 at some point in the finals. The fact that his highest scoring game was 35 is just silly...and that was a game they won. Which actually makes the other games even worse. He literally should have been taking 10 more shots per game in those losses.
:facepalm Should have dropped 60 in a Finals game, something even Jordan never did? :facepalm You must think Lebron is the greatest basketball talent to ever walk the earth. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol:

Explain to me how the Mavericks were "truly great" ?

Why do you mention them among the 2014 Spurs?

Overall your comment is very confusing and overthought... Its like your searching for stuff to put against LeBron, and at the same time forgetting its a team sport... LeBron's cast this year was considerably weaker than Kobe's, who had the most stacked team in the league from 08-10.

Well, because I think the 11 Mavs were better than the 14 Spurs if you made me choose one.

And meh...I don't think this 14 Heat team is any worse than the 11 Lakers actually.

Looking for stuff against Lebron? No need...it's found in the biggest series of his life to date in the 2011 Finals...no need to look. It's there and it's the main reason this team doesn't have 3 rings.

Sorry if you don't like that.

[ArbitraryWater]

The Finals just ended weeks ago and it is perplexing that Lebron fans still feel the need to bring up his stats.

Did you guys not watch the game? I bring it up because I know you guys didn't forget.

How soon people forget that Lebron would stop shooting and in garbage time would fill up his stat sheet. The last thing to do is bring up Lebron's stats in an argument like this because it would hurt him.

I even left the stats out and still got Kobe.

Please stop using stats to justify for Lebron. Without those he is nothing. Nobody brings up Kobe and MJ's stats and judge them on that. They are beyond the boxscores.

When you guys can learn this, we can have a civil discussion.


Please point out the games where he stopped shooting, and then the ones where he padded in garbage time to fill up the stat sheet....

Considering when he stopped shooting means it wasnt garbage time yet, as you think he should have continued... So please, point it out.

When did he stop shooting as the game still mattered and when did he stat pad when the game didnt matter anymore / garbage time?

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm Should have dropped 60 in a Finals game, something even Jordan never did? :facepalm You must think Lebron is the greatest basketball talent to ever walk the earth. :oldlol:

Yes....he should have tried. That is the point. Not that he had to get 60...he should have tried.

It's what his team needed.

Stop ignoring that the ****ing Heat just got blown out worse than any finals team ever and Lebron went into ****ing passive mode frequently throughout the finals outside of game 2.

Shocking that they won game 2...

[ArbitraryWater]

Well, because I think the 11 Mavs were better than the 14 Spurs if you made me choose one.

And meh...I don't think this 14 Heat team is any worse than the 11 Lakers actually.

Looking for stuff against Lebron? No need...it's found in the biggest series of his life to date in the 2011 Finals...no need to look. It's there and it's the main reason this team doesn't have 3 rings.

Sorry if you don't like that.

Oh I'm well aware of 2011, but his '11 finals was no worse than Kobe's 2008 or Kobe's 2010 finals... I'm even facepalming at his chucking & inefficiency in 2009 :facepalm

http://i.gyazo.com/09542da02278bfb734bea4b3e5424744.png

But we constantly have to point out LeBron's series, and his shortcomings... makes sense.

[DMAVS41]

Oh I'm well aware of 2011, but his '11 finals was no worse than Kobe's 2008 or Kobe's 2010 finals... I'm even facepalming at his chucking & inefficiency in 2009 :facepalm

http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/806888540.jpg?1378570703

But we constantly have to point out LeBron's series, and his shortcomings... makes sense.

Lebron's 11 finals were far worse than Kobe's 08 and 10 finals.

Stop it!

[ArbitraryWater]

If you think LeBron should have dropped 60 then surely you must have him top 3 with Jordan/Kareem considering the expectations would never be as big for a Kobe, Hakeem, which is where you have LeBron ATM

Again, I'll quote myself...


Why didnt Kobe try to drop 60 in 2008 or 2011 when the ship was going down?

Or did he? Which game?

[Heavincent]

Oh I'm well aware of 2011, but his '11 finals was no worse than Kobe's 2008 or Kobe's 2010 finals


:roll: :roll: :roll:

Delusional.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron's 11 finals were far worse than Kobe's 08 and 10 finals.

Stop it!

How much value do you think Kobe brought from games 4-6 in 2008?

Game 4: 17 points, 6-19 32%, horrible defensive lapses as they suffer one of the worst comeback losses ever

Game 5: 25 points on 8-21 38%

Game 6: 22 points on 7-22 32% as they get rolled over

Was this him trying to score 60? You prefer it that way?

LeBron

Game 4: 8 points... horrible. Worst game of the 6

Game 5: 17/10/10

Game 6: 21 points on 60%

Not enough, but why is it worse than what Kobe pulled?

[JT123]

Yes....he should have tried. That is the point. Not that he had to get 60...he should have tried.

It's what his team needed.

Stop ignoring that the ****ing Heat just got blown out worse than any finals team ever and Lebron went into ****ing passive mode frequently throughout the finals outside of game 2.

Shocking that they won game 2...
:facepalm When no one else on the team can score or draw any defensive attention you are going to lose no matter what! Lebron is smart enough to know that one player shooting the ball 30 times a night is not going to beat a great team like the Spurs, especially seeing as how no one on the team could stop the Spurs from scoring on the other end. Them getting blown out had nothing to do with Lebron not taking 30 shots, and everything to do with them not being able to get stops on defense. ESPN has brainwashed you fools. Hero ball might work in one game, but you aren't going to win a series against a great team if only one player is involved in the offense. :hammerhead:

[tpols]

How much value do you think Kobe brought from games 4-6 in 2008?

Game 4: 17 points, 6-19 32%, horrible defensive lapses as they suffer one of the worst comeback losses ever

Game 5: 25 points on 8-21 38%

Game 6: 22 points on 7-22 32% as they get rolled over

Was this him trying to score 60? You prefer it that way?

LeBron

Game 4: 8 points... horrible. Worst game of the 6

Game 5: 17/10/10

Game 6: 21 points on 60%

Not enough, but why is it worse than what Kobe pulled?

Yes.. he was at least trying. 08 Celtics were one of the best defensive teams of all time inside and out.. the mavs werent at all.

Kobe goes down swinging.. he isnt as physically talented as bran but he fken wants to win the damn game.. doesnt care what his FG is at the end. Bron DOES CARE what his FG is at the end of the game and will use it as a tool to deflect blame for losing. Which mentality do you respect more?

[Milbuck]

his '11 finals was no worse than Kobe's 2008 or Kobe's 2010 finals... I'm even facepalming at his chucking & inefficiency in 2009 :facepalm

:oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Yes.. he was at least trying. 08 Celtics were one of the best defensive teams of all time inside and out.. the mavs werent at all.

Kobe goes down swinging.. he isnt as physically talented as bran but he fken wants to win the damn game.. doesnt care what his FG is at the end. Bron DOES CARE what his FG is at the end of the game and will use it as a tool to deflect blame for losing. Which mentality do you respect more?

Damn, he only fell short about 38 points... good job, Kobe

So you prefer Kobe's 22 points on 7-22 31% over


LeBron 31 points on 10-21 with 10 rebounds and 5 assists where he scored 17 in the 1st quarter (Better than any quarter Kobe had)

?

How does that make any ****in' sense?

[JT123]

Well, because I think the 11 Mavs were better than the 14 Spurs if you made me choose one.

And meh...I don't think this 14 Heat team is any worse than the 11 Lakers actually.

Looking for stuff against Lebron? No need...it's found in the biggest series of his life to date in the 2011 Finals...no need to look. It's there and it's the main reason this team doesn't have 3 rings.

Sorry if you don't like that.
If that is what you honestly I believe then I can not take you seriously in this debate. :oldlol:
There is being a homer, and then there is being straight up delusional. :facepalm

[TheMarkMadsen]

:oldlol:

He's "laughing" at Kobes "ineffiency" of 09 but has made a thread claiming dirk had the goat finals...where dirk shot a lower FG% than Kobe in 09..

Not hating on dirk he had a great great series just pointing out the inconsistency in his argument :lol :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

He's "laughing" at Kobes "ineffiency" of 09 but has made a thread claiming dirk had the goat finals...where dirk shot a lower FG% than Kobe in 09..

Not hating on dirk he had a great great series just pointing out the inconsistency in his argument :lol :lol

Well Dirk made 2 game winning plays in that series = Bailed out.... himself :applause:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Well Dirk made 2 game winning plays in that series = Bailed out.... himself :applause:

Do you play for the Dodgers?

[tpols]

Damn, he only fell short about 38 points... good job, Kobe

So you prefer Kobe's 22 points on 7-22 31% over


LeBron 31 points on 10-21 with 10 rebounds and 5 assists where he scored 17 in the 1st quarter (Better than any quarter Kobe had)

?

How does that make any ****in' sense?

The problem w/ bran is he'll go off for a little bit, and then suddenly just stop playing. Look at his headband game last year where he went OFF in the beginning of the 4th quarter, but then started bricking and turning the ball over and getting toasted by parker. He just goes on and off..

and its gotta be wierd for his teammates to be heavily carried in all aspects of the game for a stretch and then all of a sudden bran decides 'alright thats enough I made my mark" and starts going passive and playing hot potatoe.

Its like :wtf: why'd you stop. Its almost unexplainable.

[JT123]

The problem w/ bran is he'll go off for a little bit, and then suddenly just stop playing. Look at his headband game last year where he went OFF in the beginning of the 4th quarter, but then started bricking and turning the ball over and getting toasted by parker. He just goes on and off..

and its gotta be wierd for his teammates to be heavily carried in all aspects of the game for a stretch and then all of a sudden bran decides 'alright thats enough I made my mark" and starts going passive and playing hot potatoe.

Its like :wtf: why'd you stop. Its almost unexplainable.
Well in game 6 he likely got tired, as I think he had played almost the entire game to that point. Lebron actually trusts his teammates when he isn't feeling at the top of his game, strange concept for Kobe fans I'm guessing.

[Doranku]

Kobe faced better competition, had a worse team relative to his competition, and didn't have anything close to the abomination that was the 2011 finals.

The question is a no-brainer. :oldlol:

[KyrieTheFuture]

Playing the Orlando magic in the finals is not very difficult.

[tpols]

Well in game 6 he likely got tired, as I think he had played almost the entire game to that point. Lebron actually trusts his teammates when he isn't feeling at the top of his game, strange concept for Kobe fans I'm guessing.

Has nuthin to do with trusting teammates.. its not like bran goes off and then features his guys and hits them in their spots after to get them involved like Magic or stockton or something.. he just straight stops attacking, gives them the ball basically saying 'its your turn now' like he already did his share and doesnt have to keep pushing.

[Doranku]

Playing the Orlando magic in the finals is not very difficult.
You mean the Orlando Magic team that roasted Bran's 66-win Cavs team in the ECF?

[KyrieTheFuture]

You mean the Orlando Magic team that roasted Bran's 66-win Cavs team in the ECF?
Lets hear your argument as to how that cavs team was better than the Lakers.

[Doranku]

Lets hear your argument as to how that cavs team was better than the Lakers.
They won 66 games and swept the first two rounds of the playoffs. And they had the MVP!!!!

Not sure what your point is. I guarantee if we go back to 2009, you'd be beating your chest proclaiming the Cavs as the favorite to win the championship and saying LeBron would own Kobe in the finals or something stupid like that.

But now, here you are doing damage control for your idol 5 years later. Sad.

[J Shuttlesworth]

They won 66 games and swept the first two rounds of the playoffs. And they had the MVP!!!!

Not sure what your point is. I guarantee if we go back to 2009, you'd be beating your chest proclaiming the Cavs as the favorite to win the championship and saying LeBron would own Kobe in the finals or something stupid like that.

But now, here you are doing damage control for your idol 5 years later. Sad.
You were just in another thread saying the East is a joke... now you're bragging about sweeping the first two rounds of a joke of a conference? Pick a side :biggums:

[riseagainst]

LBJ: Better regular season, better Final's stats.

Kobe: Better playoffs overall, better best series.

co-signed.

[KyrieTheFuture]

They won 66 games and swept the first two rounds of the playoffs. And they had the MVP!!!!

Not sure what your point is. I guarantee if we go back to 2009, you'd be beating your chest proclaiming the Cavs as the favorite to win the championship and saying LeBron would own Kobe in the finals or something stupid like that.

But now, here you are doing damage control for your idol 5 years later. Sad.
I don't think you're very familiar with me as a poster are you? I understand its shocking to think that someone who expresses an opinion opposite to yours isn't a LeBron dick rider but you're gonna have to grow up and be an adult someday so let me give you some advice. Learn to defend your side, don't try to deflect and tear down your opponent with empty bullshit. Or get really good and become a politician.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I don't think you're very familiar with me as a poster are you?

Lets familiarize him


Except its Kobe so he probably spilled 15 of them. Always low percentage shot taker.

:rolleyes:

[ArbitraryWater]

The problem w/ bran is he'll go off for a little bit, and then suddenly just stop playing. Look at his headband game last year where he went OFF in the beginning of the 4th quarter, but then started bricking and turning the ball over and getting toasted by parker. He just goes on and off..

and its gotta be wierd for his teammates to be heavily carried in all aspects of the game for a stretch and then all of a sudden bran decides 'alright thats enough I made my mark" and starts going passive and playing hot potatoe.

Its like :wtf: why'd you stop. Its almost unexplainable.

What the hell are you talking about "He just goes on and off"... Are you guys really expecting him to stay on, as in scoring 10+ points every quarter?

This is ridiculous... When was Kobe even on in that game 6 vs Boston? 1st quarter? Why was he off afterwards? Smh Kobe.. always on and off.

And how can you be on and off in the SAME QUARTER? He scored 16 points while having 2 bricks and 2 TO's, I'd consider that on... You also expected him to have 0 TO's and make all shots so that he would have 22 in that 4th, right?

I'm sure his teammates would much rather see LeBron NOT have those on quarters... It just destroys the game for the team. They must be very confused...






























What the actual **** are you talking about?

[Rodmantheman]

Lebron> Kobe

[HOoopCityJones]

Lebron> Kobe

2/5

[Rodmantheman]

2/5

Lebron> Kobe

[sportjames23]

One didn't have to succumb to joining his longtime crush to win a championship.


Aether. :pimp:

[Hey Yo]

You guys should go back and read the game threads. Nothing but people talking about how he stopped shooting.

Game threads don't lie.

People trying to rewrite history but there is evidence.:facepalm
Thanks for the laugh.

[Hey Yo]

2/5
True.

Kobe 2 good Finals and 5 bad Finals

[Brizzly]

30/6/5/1.5/0.8/ with just 3.0 TO's on 57% TS. 40 MPG

VS

28/8/6/1.7/.7/ with 3.3 TO's on 58% TS. 42.5 MPG

---

Stat wise? Kobe no doubt. Defensively? maybe a slight edge to LeBron for being the better help defender . But Kobe was a much better at staying in front of his man. I have seen LeBron getting left behind by the one he has defended too many times. LeBron is not a very good on ball defender, average at best. While Kobe sometimes lost his man off the ball. So overall because James takes up so much space with his length and speed he gets the nod for defensive impact.



As for competition; Kobe faced tougher competition, tougher finals opponents and had less help. Magic wasn't a great team, but OKC wasn't a very good team either. Young, inexperienced, no real leader, terrible coach, terrible bench and beside their big three (Harden, WB and Durant) no one else really being a capable scorer. James Harden also playing like shit, as usual in the playoffs.

While Magic at least was a well oiled machine with a dominant center in the middle. Granted both teams wasn't very good finals competition, but I would give the slight edge to Magic.

As for the second win there is no doubt that the Celtics was better than last years Spurs.

With all taken into account, Kobe's run was more impressive. He had less help, faced tougher competition and you can't really argue with his stats or efficiency, which I know Bronstans loves to do.

[Hey Yo]

30/6/5/1.5/0.8/ with just 3.0 TO's on 57% TS. 40 MPG

VS

28/8/6/1.7/.7/ with 3.3 TO's on 58% TS. 42.5 MPG

---

Stat wise? Kobe no doubt. Defensively? maybe a slight edge to LeBron for being the better help defender . But Kobe was a much better at staying in front of his man. I have seen LeBron getting left behind by the one he has defended too many times. LeBron is not a very good on ball defender, average at best. While Kobe sometimes lost his man off the ball. So overall because James takes up so much space with his length and speed he gets the nod for defensive impact.



As for competition; Kobe faced tougher competition, tougher finals opponents and had less help. Magic wasn't a great team, but OKC wasn't a very good team either. Young, inexperienced, no real leader, terrible coach, terrible bench and beside their big three (Harden, WB and Durant) no one else really being a capable scorer. James Harden also playing like shit, as usual in the playoffs.

While Magic at least was a well oiled machine with a dominant center in the middle. Granted both teams wasn't very good finals competition, but I would give the slight edge to Magic.

As for the second win there is no doubt that the Celtics was better than last years Spurs.

With all taken into account, Kobe's run was more impressive. He had less help, faced tougher competition and you can't really argue with his stats or efficiency, which I know Bronstans loves to do.
OKC rolled through the playoffs and were the odds on favorite before tip off game 1 of the 2012 Finals.

[Brizzly]

OKC rolled through the playoffs and were the odds on favorite before tip off game 1 of the 2012 Finals.

They won over Mavs, albeit reigning champs but I don't think anyone thinks the Mavs was a very good team that year, Lakers just sucked that year.

The only series where they faced real competition in the west was against the Spurs, but it was after all the lockout season. 66 games took its toll on a old Spurs vs the youngest team in the league who loved to run.

In the finals Miami exposed them.

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm When no one else on the team can score or draw any defensive attention you are going to lose no matter what! Lebron is smart enough to know that one player shooting the ball 30 times a night is not going to beat a great team like the Spurs, especially seeing as how no one on the team could stop the Spurs from scoring on the other end. Them getting blown out had nothing to do with Lebron not taking 30 shots, and everything to do with them not being able to get stops on defense. ESPN has brainwashed you fools. Hero ball might work in one game, but you aren't going to win a series against a great team if only one player is involved in the offense. :hammerhead:

Dude...Lebron's defense was nowhere to be found outside of game 2 in the finals.

Stop acting like he dominated the series. He didn't.

Me brainwashed? No, I don't even like Kobe's style of play at all, but there is something to be said for doing what your team needs. Lebron came out swinging most games...then fizzled on both ends.

Just the truth.

Not his fault at all they lost, but that also doesn't mean he played great.