If prime Kareem played in the 90s would he be the best player in the league

[rlsmooth775]

what is the opinion

[bond10]

The era of elite centers? I don't think so. Top 5 probably.

[DonDadda59]

Was he really that much better (if at all) than Shaq or Hakeem?

Neither of those guys were considered the best in the league in the 90s... unless you count Hakeem when the GOAT took a break mid decade.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Was he really that much better (if at all) than Shaq or Hakeem?

Neither of those guys were considered the best in the league in the 90s... unless you count Hakeem when the GOAT took a break mid decade.

Can't even count mid decade IMO. Ewing gave him a really good run in the 95 finals. Starks shot us out of a ring :rant

[SHAQisGOAT]

The era of elite centers? I don't think so. Top 5 probably.

Wilt
Reed
Thurmond
Lanier
Unseld
Cowens
Walton
Sikma
Moses
Hakeem
Ewing
......
He didn't really face a bunch of elite centers throughout his career :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:facepalm

Top5 is simply an understatement. At their best, only Jordan could rival him for best in the league (in the 90s)... Top5 all-time peak along with Shaq, MJ, Bird and Wilt.

[Inactive]

I don't think he would be the undisputed best player. I think he would be around the same level as Olajuwon, maybe slightly better. His offensive game might be slightly better than young Hakeem, same level as prime. His team defense would be worse, but he'd probably be even better h2h with other centers.

[r0drig0lac]

1- jordan
2- kareem
3- hakeem
4- d-rob

[COnDEMnED]

What's his team and what teammates? He may not be the best, but he may have prevented someone else from being considered the best.

I think a better question would be, had Jordans bulls played in the 80's against Magics Lakers and Birds Celtics, would he still be considered the GOAT? Probably not.

[Ne 1]

Absolutely. 31/16/4/4 on 54% over the first decade of his career in the playoffs, At his peak he was at 35/17/5/5 on 57% (:eek:) and 35/18/4/4 in playoffs. Some of his season:

35/17/5/5
32/16/4/4
30/16/5/4
28/17/5/4

All of them around 55% shooting too (some 57+%). The first three statlines being from seasons his team won 55-65 wins (one year winning a ring). Didn't need to clear out his own teammates for rebounds or yell at them to shoot to collect assists either. In his prime, over 10 years (the entire 70s) he averaged 31 ppg, 15.7 rpg, 4.0 apg and around 4-5 bpg (3.5 in the games on record, but his best shot blocking seasons, '69-'73, aren't on record) in the playoffs. All this with the benefits of big man efficiency with no traditional liabilities of poor FT shooting, inconsistent defense, poor passing, or really any weakness in area of his game. Is anyone else rivaling that statline in the playoffs over 10 year stretch?!

[Sarcastic]

He'd be the best player of the 2000s, that's for sure.

[La Frescobaldi]

I don't think he would be the undisputed best player. I think he would be around the same level as Olajuwon, maybe slightly better. His offensive game might be slightly better than young Hakeem, same level as prime. His team defense would be worse, but he'd probably be even better h2h with other centers.
Kareem was better than Olajuwon and it wasn't ever remotely close.
You guys for real in here?

[Psileas]

Give him a decent team and he's considered either the best or arguably the best player in any era (because it's one thing to be the best - you don't need great teammates for this - and another to have people admit so). People arguing whether he was much better than Shaq or Hakeem or Robinson should ask themselves whether Jordan himself was much better than them and whether he'd look as much better if we leveled the playing field, giving Jordan his center competitors' teammates or vice-versa. The 90's Bulls without Jordan were better than any of prime Hakeem's/Robinson's/90's Shaq's teams were without them.

[Y2ktors]

Kareem was better than Olajuwon and it wasn't ever remotely close.
You guys for real in here?
Defensively, he isn't remotely close to Olajuwon.

[Artillery]

Kareem is one of the greatest offensive players in NBA history but his defense has always been overrated. He's never anchored a great defensive team.

[Artillery]

Also, missing the playoffs in his prime during the weakest era in NBA history is pretty ****ing embarrassing.

[SexSymbol]

How should we know?

[Nikola_]

lol @ 16 rpg and over 30 ppg in the 90s

27-11 at best

94 onwards was halfcourt league. no more running and easy hooks over defenders

[SHAQisGOAT]

Kareem is one of the greatest offensive players in NBA history but his defense has always been overrated. He's never anchored a great defensive team.

I think you meant underrated.


Let's see...

1971 Bucks - best defensive team in the league; Kareem all-defensive 2nd

1972 Bucks - pretty much the same as 1971

1973 Bucks - 2nd best defense; Kareem 4th in DWS, blocks and steals not recorded yet

1974 Bucks - 2nd best defense; Kareem all-defensive 1st, 2nd in DWS, 3rd in DRtg, and 2nd in BPG

1977 Lakers - 10th best D; only Kermit as a "legit" defensive teammate (edit: and Don Chaney); Kareem all-defensive 2nd, 1st in DWS, 3rd in DRtg, and 2nd in BPG

1978 - 10th best defense; only good defensive teammate was Wilkes but they also had Dantley who didn't give a single **** about defense, Nixon who gambled a lot, and Hudson who was old and never that good at defense to begin with; Kareem all-defensive 1st, 2nd in DWS, 6th in DRtg and 1st in BPG

1981 Lakers - 6th best ranked defense in the league, Jabbar now at 34 and getting good defensive help, that's what happens; Kareem all-defensive 1st, 3rd in BPG

Even when the Lakers were running up-n-down with showtime, then playing pressure defense on the other end (with some great athletes/defenders yea), it was (old) Kareem still protecting the middle...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:




Defensively, he isn't remotely close to Olajuwon.

:oldlol:

Hakeem is above yea but don't think that it's not close... I swear, Kareem is really underrated defensively, most of the time, if the DPOY was awarded back then (he wins at least 2 of those) it most likely wouldn't be that way though.

Kareem's better than Hakeem on offense though, so...

[fpliii]

1977 Lakers - 10th best D; only Kermit as a "legit" defensive teammate; Kareem all-defensive 2nd, 1st in DWS, 3rd in DRtg, and 2nd in BPG
Don Chaney? Though he was a 2 guard, so maybe his defenses wasn't as valuable.

[SHAQisGOAT]

lol @ 16 rpg and over 30 ppg in the 90s

27-11 at best

94 onwards was halfcourt league. no more running and easy hooks over defenders


As far as regular-season, Olajuwon averaged 27.8 once, in the 90's, Kareem could do more...

Easy hooks? :rolleyes: :facepalm Tell that to Hakeem, who still got destroyed by Kareem in his late 30's, more than a couple of times.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Don Chaney? Though he was a 2 guard, so maybe his defenses wasn't as valuable.

True, forgot about him, thanks... He was like 30 already but still pretty good defensively, and definitely valuable.

[fpliii]

True, forgot about him, thanks... He was like 30 already but still pretty good defensively, and definitely valuable.
Yeah, I just mentioned him because Kareem was pissed about the trade (both he and Kermit were sent away). From his autobiography:

p.273 (76-77 season and Bill Walton)

The Lakers were prepared that next fall. Working with a private coach named Pete Newell, forward Kermit Washington had spent the summer learning how to provide muscle under the boards. This rejuvenated Kermit was just what we needed. If I’m going to intimidate inside, switch off and help my teammates with my mobility, we’re going to need someone with the strength and tenacity to grab the rebounds from all those missed shots. Kermit was every bit that man. On offense, if the other team tried to double-team me with the power forward, they left Kermit alone for more rebounds, which was suichide. He had developed into a disciplined player, and his solidity freed me to move around even more, save in the knowledge that he was taking care of business underneath.

Lucius and Cazzie were back, and we had added Don Chaney in place of Gail Goodrich, so our defense was greatly improved. We moved from seventeenth in NBA team defense to fourth, and our offense remained potent. The season was going along fine; we had the best record in the league, until injury struck. Kermit went down with a knee in February 1977, and in March, Lucius got hurt again. Two of our starting five had to sit on the sidelines for the entire playoffs.

The playoffs are a time when strengths are solidified and weaknesses exploited. Without Kermit to crash for rebounds, we were vulnerable off the boards, and without Lucius, our offense suffered. We managed to beat Golden State in the opening round, but it took us seven games, and then we came up against the Portland Trail Blazers.

p.286 (Kermit Washington fight, and subsequent trade)

Before he could play another game, Kermit was traded. He and Don Chaney and a number-one draft choice were sent to the Boston Celtics for Charlie Scott. It was a terrible trade for the Lakers. We lost a solid chunk of our defense and some future for another guard. Our alternate rebounding fell to a white forward, Don Ford, and died; I got double-teamed by power forwards again; we had to go another year and a half undermanned off the boards.

More importantly than the Lakers’ fortunes on the court was something I only came to find out four years later. A highly visible and influential man in basketball told Kermit that the league owners forced Lakers owner Jack Kent Cooke to make that trade because they would not tolerate having me and Kermit on the same team. Here were two extremely powerful black men who had both severely beaten white players, and the owners wanted us separated because they would not have us intimidating the rest of the league. That’s hard to prove and easy to deny, but I fully believe it.

[Y2ktors]

I think you meant underrated.


Let's see...

1971 Bucks - best defensive team in the league; Kareem all-defensive 2nd

1972 Bucks - pretty much the same as 1971

1973 Bucks - 2nd best defense; Kareem 4th in DWS, blocks and steals not recorded yet

1974 Bucks - 2nd best defense; Kareem all-defensive 1st, 2nd in DWS, 3rd in DRtg, and 2nd in BPG

1977 Lakers - 10th best D; only Kermit as a "legit" defensive teammate (edit: and Don Chaney); Kareem all-defensive 2nd, 1st in DWS, 3rd in DRtg, and 2nd in BPG

1978 - 10th best defense; only good defensive teammate was Wilkes but they also had Dantley who didn't give a single **** about defense, Nixon who gambled a lot, and Hudson who was old and never that good at defense to begin with; Kareem all-defensive 1st, 2nd in DWS, 6th in DRtg and 1st in BPG

1981 Lakers - 6th best ranked defense in the league, Jabbar now at 34 and getting good defensive help, that's what happens; Kareem all-defensive 1st, 3rd in BPG

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:





:oldlol:

Hakeem is above yea but don't think that it's not close... I swear, Kareem is really underrated defensively, most of the time, if the DPOY was awarded back then (he wins at least 2 of those) it most likely wouldn't be that way though.

Kareem's better than Hakeem on offense though, so...



Kareem was a rim protector, and that's cool. But he couldn't guard on the perimeter, guard players very well that were more physical and he couldn't guard as many positions as Hakeem. Hakeem also finished his career in the top 10 in steals, the only big man in the top 10.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Kareem was a rim protector, and that's cool. But he couldn't guard on the perimeter, guard players very well that were more physical and he couldn't guard as many positions as Hakeem. Hakeem also finished his career in the top 10 in steals, the only big man in the top 10.

That's cool!? He was extremely tall and long, very mobile, really smart and a terrific rim protector, he had great defensive impact and anchored some great defenses (even when not expected, let's say)... Yea let's call that 'cool' :confusedshrug: :rolleyes: :facepalm
Sorry if he couldn't guard on the perimeter, he's a 7'2'' center, he's not really supposed to do that, and every coach with half a brain would rather have him near the rim, let's call out CP3 for not guarding the post or something, also.
Yea, he sometimes had problems with bigger and more physical centers but got better at that with age, also put on some considerable weight, everyone would've had trouble against some of the centers he was facing though, still did a great job time and time again, and, one more time, his team defense was major.
Yea he couldn't guard as many positions as Hakeem but it is what it is, I can also stand here and give shit to Hakeem (well him and Sampson) because he got hit with several 40+ points games against an old-man Kareem at almost 40, while having Ralph on his team also.

And again, with all of that said, I've stated that Hakeem was a better defensive player but to say that "defensively, he(Kareem) isn't remotely close to Olajuwon" is preposterous, period... Plus, like I've said before, if DPOY was awarded back then (and he would've gotten at least two) he would be a lot less underrated defensively, probably "ranked" right, but some people will only look at awards sometimes and neglect the actual game and even all types of stats(mostly defensively) and context.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yeah, I just mentioned him because Kareem was pissed about the trade (both he and Kermit were sent away). From his autobiography:

p.273 (76-77 season and Bill Walton)


p.286 (Kermit Washington fight, and subsequent trade)

Yea, I've read that before. Lakers were unlucky in 1977 with those injuries, especially since Kareem was at his best and playing out of his mind. I don't really know if they would get past the Blazers but definitely would've had greater chances, considerably... It's painful to watch the Lakers against the Blazers, Kareem was playing amazing on both ends and his teammates sometimes couldn't even get the ball past half-court, pass it to him, and played bad D. Those were some bad trades yea, but luckily for them, a dynasty was formed in the 80s.

[Y2ktors]

That's cool!? He was extremely tall and long, very mobile, really smart and a terrific rim protector, he had great defensive impact and anchored some great defenses (even when not expected, let's say)... Yea let's call that 'cool' :confusedshrug: :rolleyes: :facepalm
Sorry if he couldn't guard on the perimeter, he's a 7'2'' center, he's not really supposed to do that, and every coach with half a brain would rather have him near the rim, let's call out CP3 for not guarding the post or something, also.
Yea, he sometimes had problems with bigger and more physical centers but got better at that with age, also put on some considerable weight, everyone would've had trouble against some of the centers he was facing though, still did a great job time and time again, and, one more time, his team defense was major.
Yea he couldn't guard as many positions as Hakeem but it is what it is, I can also stand here and give shit to Hakeem (well him and Sampson) because he got hit with several 40+ points games against an old-man Kareem at almost 40, while having Ralph on his team also.

And again, with all of that said, I've stated that Hakeem was a better defensive player but to say that "defensively, he(Kareem) isn't remotely close to Olajuwon" is preposterous, period... Plus, like I've said before, if DPOY was awarded back then (and he would've gotten at least two) he would be a lot less underrated defensively, probably "ranked" right, but some people will only look at awards sometimes and neglect the actual game and even all types of stats(mostly defensively) and context.




Blah blah blah. Kareem Didn't do a damn thing better than Hakeem defensively to call it close other than volume rebounding at times. His best years were in the watered Down 70s but I still give him his props.

And it's convenient how u left out Hakeem dominating Kareem as well, to the point where they didn't want Kareem even guarding him anymore.

[dunksby]

Blah blah blah. Kareem Didn't do a damn thing better than Hakeem defensively to call it close other than volume rebounding at times. His best years were in the watered Down 70s but I still give him his props.

And it's convenient how u left out Hakeem dominating Kareem as well, to the point where they didn't want Kareem even guarding him anymore.
Like 38 year-old Kareem putting up 46/11 on 21-30 70%FG against the Rockets while Hakeem managed to score 18 points.

[Pointguard]

Jordan was a winner, so I really doubt the majority here would have had Kareem above him. Not that Kareem wasn't a winner, but Jordan was obsessed with it. There are four guys that I say had a relationship with winning: Russell, Magic, Jordan and Duncan. Kareem is definitely not on that list. You put those four in the 70's and they simply will have four automatic rings with the injuries.

I think Kareem possibly would have had his three years as the best player in the 70's though. Running teams, passing teams, fast teams, shooting teams would definitely be a bit more than what he seen in his prime. In his post prime Magic handled all the adjustments. Kareem never seen an overbearing offensive presence like Shaq, or a super fast quick center like D Rob, or the many moves that Hakeem developed in his game. the super quick guards like Hardaway/KJ and the super athleticism of Jordan along with an emphasis on defense would have been a bit harder on Kareem.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

It would be a toss-up between he and MJ. Difficult to say.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: at how underrated KAJ is. After Wilt he was the most dominant player ever and he is being compared to David Robinson and Hakeem.

The answer to the OP is yes. KAJ would provide as many points, assists as MJ but would trounce him in rebounding and have more defensive impact.


There are four guys that I say had a relationship with winning: Russell, Magic, Jordan and Duncan. Kareem is definitely not on that list.

6 NBA championships
3 NCAA titles in 3 years
3 high school championships

Only Russell can touch KAJ in terms of winning.


You put those four in the 70's and they simply will have four automatic rings with the injuries.

They were going to outpace KAJ's performances and manage to keep their teammates healthy?

[Kvnzhangyay]

Yes he would probably be the best player

[Y2ktors]

Like 38 year-old Kareem putting up 46/11 on 21-30 70%FG against the Rockets while Hakeem managed to score 18 points.

One box score tells the whole story I guess.

[dunksby]

One box score tells the whole story I guess.
Prime Kareem would feast on Hakeem, get real.

[Y2ktors]

:wtf:
Prime Kareem would feast on Hakeem, get real.

Yep, you've totally convinced me. :oldlol: