Has any other all-time great had worse teammates than LeBron had in Cleveland?

[SouBeachTalents]

For such an extended period of time too? The only ones that would even have a logical case would be Hakeem and KG, and even I think their teammates were slightly better than LeBrons

[russwest0]

Agreed OP. Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Danny Green, Carlos Boozer, Shaquille O'Neal, Anderson Varejao, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas are all scrubs :applause:

[Droid101]

Consistently the best defensive and three point shooting team in the league. Huh, sounds perfect for bran actually.

[Fork]

Agreed OP. Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Danny Green, Carlos Boozer, Shaquille O'Neal, Anderson Varejao, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas are all scrubs :applause:


Yup you're right, Shaq was definitely in his prime

[Black and White]

Allen Iverson

[Trollsmasher]

Consistently the best defensive and three point shooting team in the league. Huh, sounds perfect for bran actually.
thanks to Bran:cheers:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Agreed OP. Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Danny Green, Carlos Boozer, Shaquille O'Neal, Anderson Varejao, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas are all scrubs :applause:
We're counting Boozer now :oldlol: They played 1 season together in LeBron's rookie year.

As for the other players? None are better than Role Players.

[houston]

Allen Iverson


when iverson became all-time great plus he had Mutumbo that was better than anything Bron had

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Consistently the best defensive and three point shooting team in the league. Huh, sounds perfect for bran actually.
In large part due to LeBron...

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Allen Iverson

When you take a team with Aaron Mckie as your second best scorer, you know you are probably going to get destroyed in the finals. Despite that, AI went off for 48 in the first game and a few other games in the series were pretty close. I sometimes watch game 1 2001 NBA finals every once in awhile. One of the greatest individual performances I have ever seen live.

AI also reminds me of a guy that I always guard at my gym. I'm 4-5 inches taller than him but he's had some nasty crossovers on me. I fell on one i was embarrassed.

[russwest0]

In large part due to LeBron...

I've actually just recently heard that he had 66 winshares that year they won 66 games. Turns out he did everything and his teammates did literally nothing. :bowdown:

[NBAplayoffs2001]

We're counting Boozer now :oldlol: They played 1 season together in LeBron's rookie year.

As for the other players? None are better than Role Players.

Would have been interesting if he stayed with the Cavs. Would have at least made the 2007 NBA finals a little closer. Maybe a 5 games series instead? :lol Either way you got to credit LeBron for taking a bunch of scrubs to the NBA finals. For christ sake, that team made a washed up Larry Hughes look like an all star.

[lakerspng]

In large part due to LeBron...

LeBron was not a very good defensive player at that stage in his career, it was one of his weaknesses. They were a great defensive team because they had a lot of strong defensive players on the team. They were built that way. and they specifically brought in great 3 point shooters to camp the perimeter because it fit LeBron's style of ball. it was no accident.

[Droid101]

In large part due to LeBron...
Oh yeah? Why didn't his other players sink their threes this year, then?

[russwest0]

Would have been interesting if he stayed with the Cavs. Would have at least made the 2007 NBA finals a little closer. Maybe a 5 games series instead? :lol Either way you got to credit LeBron for taking a bunch of scrubs to the NBA finals. For christ sake, that team made a washed up Larry Hughes look like an all star.

Eastern Conference :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[TheMarkMadsen]

A front court of Big Z, Andy V, Shaq, J.J. Hickson, Jaminson & Leone Powe all on the same team.

Just stop.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

LeBron was not a very good defensive player at that stage in his career, it was one of his weaknesses. They were a great defensive team because they had a lot of strong defensive players on the team. They were built that way. and they specifically brought in great 3 point shooters to camp the perimeter because it fit LeBron's style of ball. it was no accident.

Also wasn't used to arguably the greatest perimeter defender in the early 2000s before the hand check ban in Bruce Bowen. Dude was a filthy defender. I tried emulating his game when I was in small leagues when I was a teen. I once fouled out in 8 minute using Bruce Bowen's defense (including the dirty aspects).:lol

Coach's response: :facepalm
Was benched for like a game or so lol despite averaging 12pts/5rbs.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I've actually just recently heard that he had 66 winshares that year they won 66 games. Turns out he did everything and his teammates did literally nothing. :bowdown:

2008-2009

LeBron on Court: ORTG: 115.6 DRTG: 100.6 Net: +15
LeBron off Court: ORTG: 102.6 DRTG: 108.8 Net: -6.2

Total: +21.2....

You realize how absurd that is?? IIRC that is the highest On/Off EVER recorded...

Also, RAPM for 2008-09: +11.3. 2nd highest ever recorded...(only to himself in 09-10)

LeBron in 2008-09-10 was probably the biggest carrying of a team i have ever seen.

[DonDadda59]

A front court of Big Z, Andy V, Shaq, J.J. Hickson, Jaminson & Leone Powe all on the same team.

Just stop.

Yup. The Cavs in Bron's last 2 years there were deep in the front court and had shooters for weeks in the back court. Plus guys played hard on the defensive end. They were a well balanced championship contender, just lacked big name talent. Very similar in construction to Hakeem's supporting cast that he won back to back titles with.

[Trollsmasher]

2008-2009

LeBron on Court: ORTG: 115.6 DRTG: 100.6 Net: +15
LeBron off Court: ORTG: 102.6 DRTG: 108.8 Net: -6.2

Total: +21.2....

You realize how absurd that is?? IIRC that is the highest On/Off EVER recorded...

Also, RAPM for 2008-09: +11.3. 2nd highest ever recorded...(only to himself in 09-10)

LeBron in 2008-09-10 was probably the biggest carrying of a team i have ever seen.
:applause:

that team was one of 4 worst teams in the league without him on the floor

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Oh yeah? Why didn't his other players sink their threes this year, then?
Do you even know how basketball works?

[Trollsmasher]

Do you even realize how basketball works?
You are demanding too much from him:lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

2008-2009

LeBron on Court: ORTG: 115.6 DRTG: 100.6 Net: +15
LeBron off Court: ORTG: 102.6 DRTG: 108.8 Net: -6.2

Total: +21.2....

You realize how absurd that is?? IIRC that is the highest On/Off EVER recorded...

Also, RAPM for 2008-09: +11.3. 2nd highest ever recorded...(only to himself in 09-10)

LeBron in 2008-09-10 was probably the biggest carrying of a team i have ever seen.

What were the numbers for the rest of the starters?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Orlando's T-Mac Teams
Pre All Star Pippen, Jordan's late 80's Bulls Teams
Kobe's Smush Parker Laker Teams

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Do you even know how basketball works?

:lol

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Orlando's T-Mac Teams
Pre All Star Pippen, Jordan's late 80's Bulls Teams
Kobe's Smush Parker Laker Teams

Remove the all stars on these teams and I'm pretty sure the D- League championships can take them.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Yup. The Cavs in Bron's last 2 years there were deep in the front court and had shooters for weeks in the back court. Plus guys played hard on the defensive end. They were a well balanced championship contender, just lacked big name talent. Very similar in construction to Hakeem's supporting cast that he won back to back titles with.

I don't know how anybody can look at the 2010 cavs and say they weren't a well built team.

Espn deemed it as the year Lebron had the help he needed to go all the way

They were heavily favored against the celtics who eventually made the finals.

Dirk won the very next year with just as much help maybe even less

[qrich]

Houston with Akeem comes to mind.

LeBron never had that star next to him in Cleveland, but had a team full of role players who knew their roles and accepted that was what they were in Ohio for. Maurice Williams was there to be a point guard that could knock down the three and help bring up the ball. And so on.

LeBron just took them to the next step or two with his abilities and talents, and that is what made the difference.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

What were the numbers for the rest o the starters?

LeBron Net: 21.2
Mo Williams Net: 3.4
Delonte West: +10.7 (only about 200 of his 2100 minutes were without LeBron which is why he has an inflated number)
Andy V: +2.1
Ben Wallace: +11.7 (played 60 minutes in the season without LeBron also on the court so again has an inflated number)
Big Z: +7.3

[Black and White]

Good point Swish, Kobes team with Smush, Kwame, Walton was worse than anything LeBron has ever had.

[TheMarkMadsen]

LeBron Net: 21.2
Mo Williams Net: 3.4
Delonte West: +10.7 (only about 200 of his 2100 minutes were without LeBron which is why he has an inflated number)
Andy V: +2.1
Ben Wallace: +11.7 (played 60 minutes in the season without LeBron also on the court so again has an inflated number)
Big Z: +7.3


Parker, JJ Hickson & Shaq..?

Andy V, Big Z, Wallace & West all primarily came off the bench..

[RoundMoundOfReb]

JJ Hickson & Shaq..?

Andy V, Big Z, Wallace & West all primarily came off the bench..
Shaq wasn't on the team until 09-10. We're talking 08-09. I can grab the numbers for 09-10 as well if you want.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Shaq wasn't on the team until 09-10. We're talking 08-09. I can grab the numbers for 09-10 as well if you want.

you can link it if you want.But yeah.

[Ne 1]

Yup you're right, Shaq was definitely in his prime
Mo Williams was an All-Star, Antwan Jamison was an All-Star, Anderson Varejao was a great 6th man and made the All-Defensive 2nd team, Shaq, although past his prime years, was an All-Star the year before joining the Cavs, Big Z was a serviceable big man and an All-Star and Parker was the #1 3-point shooter in the NBA.

Jamison was averaging 17/8
Varejao was almost averaging a double-double in under 30 minutes a game
Shaq averaged 12/7 on 20 minutes per game

All scrubs though right?

Boobie, Mo, and Parker all shot over 40% from 3

Antawn Jamison averaged 20 and 10 his last year before joining Cleveland. Mo Williams was a 17ppg scorer at the point for years, and a knockdown 3pt shooter. No 2nd offensive threat? I think not. Shaq could still give you 15-18ppg and 8-10rpg in 20-25 minutes every night. He was still a presence on defense and an enforcer, brought to the Cavs specifically to neutralize Dwight.

Everybody was fine with the Cavs supporting cast when they won 66 games, they were happy with the supporting cast when they were 1 win away from being undefeated at home, nothing was wrong with the supporting cast when they were killing the Bulls, Pistons and Hawks in the playoffs, but as soon as they lose to Orlando and Boston the excuse is that Lebron is playing with a bunch of worthless bums? Jamison was an All-Star in 2008, he averaged 20 and 10 his last year before joining Cavs. Mo Williams was an All-Star in 2009 and he was a 17ppg scorer at the point for years with the Bucks, and a knockdown 3pt shooter. Pretty much the perfect PG for the Cavs system. Great shooter. Was one of the best mid-range shooters in the league and a 40+% shooter from 3. And also a great FT shooter. When you have LeBron on your team, you gotta have guys who can knock down shots. And contrary to what some like to bleieve, Mo was also capable of creating his own offense, or for others. He's wasn't just a spot-up shooter like some people like to think. In '09, he carried the Cavs second unit when James was on the bench. You don't have multiple 40 and 30 point games when you're just a scrub spot-up shooter. You don't get to be in the All-Star game when you're just a scrub spot-up shooter.

[russwest0]

Mo Williams was an All-Star, Antwan Jamison was an All-Star, Anderson Varejao was a great 6th man and made the All-Defensive 2nd team, Shaq, although past his prime years, was an All-Star the year before joining the Cavs, Big Z was a serviceable big man and an All-Star and Parker was the #1 3-point shooter in the NBA.

Jamison was averaging 17/8
Varejao was almost averaging a double-double in under 30 minutes a game
Shaq averaged 12/7 on 20 minutes per game

All scrubs though right?

Boobie, Mo, and Parker all shot over 40% from 3

Antawn Jamison averaged 20 and 10 his last year before joining Cleveland. Mo Williams was a 17ppg scorer at the point for years, and a knockdown 3pt shooter. No 2nd offensive threat? I think not. Shaq could still give you 15-18ppg and 8-10rpg in 20-25 minutes every night. He was still a presence on defense and an enforcer, brought to the Cavs specifically to neutralize Dwight.

Everybody was fine with the Cavs supporting cast when they won 66 games, they were happy with the supporting cast when they were 1 win away from being undefeated at home, nothing was wrong with the supporting cast when they were killing the Bulls, Pistons and Hawks in the playoffs, but as soon as they lose to Orlando and Boston the excuse is that Lebron is playing with a bunch of worthless bums? Jamison was an All-Star in 2008, he averaged 20 and 10 his last year before joining Cavs. Mo Williams was an All-Star in 2009 and he was a 17ppg scorer at the point for years with the Bucks, and a knockdown 3pt shooter. Pretty much the perfect PG for the Cavs system. Great shooter. Was one of the best mid-range shooters in the league and a 40+% shooter from 3. And also a great FT shooter. When you have LeBron on your team, you gotta have guys who can knock down shots. And contrary to what some like to bleieve, Mo was also capable of creating his own offense, or for others. He's wasn't just a spot-up shooter like some people like to think. In '09, he carried the Cavs second unit when James was on the bench. You don't have multiple 40 and 30 point games when you're just a scrub spot-up shooter. You don't get to be in the All-Star game when you're just a scrub spot-up shooter.

This. Great post. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

It's from bball ref 09-10

Cavs starting Line-up:

LeBron: +16.8

Williams: -1.6 (I'm guessing his number is this low because he played significant minutes without LeBron on the court seeing as he was the 2nd best offensive player)
Hickson: -9.0 (lol)
Parker: +3.9
Shaq: -5.4
Jamison: +2.2

[SouBeachTalents]

Orlando's T-Mac Teams
Pre All Star Pippen, Jordan's late 80's Bulls Teams
Kobe's Smush Parker Laker Teams

Those Kobe teams were god awful, but he only had to deal with that for 3 seasons, less than half the time LeBron did. And you could argue Odom was just as good, if not better than any teammate LeBron had in Cleveland.

I was really referring to all-time great, top 25 players, so as good as he was, T-Mac does not meet this criteria

[pastis]

easily Dirk from 2006-2009.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I was really referring to all-time great, top 25 players, so as good as he was, T-Mac does not meet this criteria
When he was healthy, he was easily.

[Ne 1]

Orlando's T-Mac Teams
Pre All Star Pippen, Jordan's late 80's Bulls Teams
Kobe's Smush Parker Laker Teams
This. Also, Wade's 2009/2010 Heat. People with agendas like to make those Cavs out to be a lot worse than thy actually were. Under Mike Brown they were always one of the best defensive and rebounding teams in the league, and in LeBron's last two years, also one of the best 3-point shooting teams. LeBron didn't have a superstar co-runner, but he had a cast that perfectly complimented his strengths and playing style.

[SouBeachTalents]

This. Also, Wade's 2009/2010 Heat. People with agendas like to make those Cavs out to be a lot worse than thy actually were. Under Mike Brown they were always one of the best defensive and rebounding teams in the league, and in LeBron's last two years, also one of the best 3-point shooting teams. LeBron didn't have a superstar co-runner, but he had a cast that perfectly complimented his strengths and playing style.

I couldn't fit it in the title, but it's also the length of time I was referring to as well. Kobe and Wade had no more than 3 seasons with teammates equal to or worse than LeBron's teammates in Cleveland were

[Nash]

Mo Williams was an All-Star, Antwan Jamison was an All-Star, Anderson Varejao was a great 6th man and made the All-Defensive 2nd team, Shaq, although past his prime years, was an All-Star the year before joining the Cavs, Big Z was a serviceable big man and an All-Star and Parker was the #1 3-point shooter in the NBA.

Jamison was averaging 17/8
Varejao was almost averaging a double-double in under 30 minutes a game
Shaq averaged 12/7 on 20 minutes per game

All scrubs though right?

Boobie, Mo, and Parker all shot over 40% from 3

Antawn Jamison averaged 20 and 10 his last year before joining Cleveland. Mo Williams was a 17ppg scorer at the point for years, and a knockdown 3pt shooter. No 2nd offensive threat? I think not. Shaq could still give you 15-18ppg and 8-10rpg in 20-25 minutes every night. He was still a presence on defense and an enforcer, brought to the Cavs specifically to neutralize Dwight.

Everybody was fine with the Cavs supporting cast when they won 66 games, they were happy with the supporting cast when they were 1 win away from being undefeated at home, nothing was wrong with the supporting cast when they were killing the Bulls, Pistons and Hawks in the playoffs, but as soon as they lose to Orlando and Boston the excuse is that Lebron is playing with a bunch of worthless bums? Jamison was an All-Star in 2008, he averaged 20 and 10 his last year before joining Cavs. Mo Williams was an All-Star in 2009 and he was a 17ppg scorer at the point for years with the Bucks, and a knockdown 3pt shooter. Pretty much the perfect PG for the Cavs system. Great shooter. Was one of the best mid-range shooters in the league and a 40+% shooter from 3. And also a great FT shooter. When you have LeBron on your team, you gotta have guys who can knock down shots. And contrary to what some like to bleieve, Mo was also capable of creating his own offense, or for others. He's wasn't just a spot-up shooter like some people like to think. In '09, he carried the Cavs second unit when James was on the bench. You don't have multiple 40 and 30 point games when you're just a scrub spot-up shooter. You don't get to be in the All-Star game when you're just a scrub spot-up shooter.
You should work in sales, you'd sell sh*t to anybody.

Shaq=1 year from retirement
Z=1 year frmo retirement
Mo= went into oblivion, still hasn't found his way out of there, never will. lol at being 2nd option.
Jamison=PLayed 25 games with Lebron, was 33 years.

Cleveland cast after Lebron left=Worst losing streak in NBA history.

Some of ya'll are sugar coating the hell out of this team, and to no surprise, its the same old Lebron critics.

[coin24]

Consistently the best defensive and three point shooting team in the league. Huh, sounds perfect for bran actually.


No they were all scrubs. 60+ win teams is irrelevant. Obviously they were all garbage, it's not fair he never has any help.. If only bran was paired with another star player..

[SouBeachTalents]

No they were all scrubs. 60+ win teams is irrelevant. Obviously they were all garbage, it's not fair he never has any help.. If only bran was paired with another star player..

How did Kobe do without Shaq or Gasol?

[TheMarkMadsen]

You should work in sales, you'd sell sh*t to anybody.

Shaq=1 year from retirement
Z=1 year frmo retirement
Mo= went into oblivion, still hasn't found his way out of there, never will. lol at being 2nd option.
Jamison=PLayed 25 games with Lebron, was 33 years.

Cleveland cast after Lebron left=Worst losing streak in NBA history.

Some of ya'll are sugar coating the hell out of this team, and to no surprise, its the same old Lebron critics.

So if the team was so bad why did the cavs have more 60 win seasons than the heat..?

[coin24]

You should work in sales, you'd sell sh*t to anybody.

Shaq=1 year from retirement
Z=1 year frmo retirement
Mo= went into oblivion, still hasn't found his way out of there, never will. lol at being 2nd option.
Jamison=PLayed 25 games with Lebron, was 33 years.

Cleveland cast after Lebron left=Worst losing streak in NBA history.

Some of ya'll are sugar coating the hell out of this team, and to no surprise, its the same old Lebron critics.

Ok pauk


Btw how did bran play against the celtics in 2010??

[TheMarkMadsen]

How did Kobe do without Shaq or Gasol?


That's where you lose :lol :lol

[coin24]

How did Kobe do without Shaq or Gasol?

Oh that's right, Gasol Bynum oden are better than prime wade/bosh/Allen.
Silly me

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

In large part due to LeBron...

So in large part, he had to do with their failures?

[SouBeachTalents]

Oh that's right, Gasol Bynum oden are better than prime wade/bosh/Allen.
Silly me

Yes, because the thread is definitely about the Heat and not the Cavs. It clearly says MIAMI in the thread title, and not CLEVELAND. Very good reading comprehension

[SouBeachTalents]

That's where you lose :lol :lol

How so?

[Ne 1]

You should work in sales, you'd sell sh*t to anybody.

Shaq=1 year from retirement
Z=1 year frmo retirement
Mo= went into oblivion, still hasn't found his way out of there, never will. lol at being 2nd option.
Jamison=PLayed 25 games with Lebron, was 33 years.

Cleveland cast after Lebron left=Worst losing streak in NBA history.

Some of ya'll are sugar coating the hell out of this team, and to no surprise, its the same old Lebron critics.
They were favored to make it out of the East in 2009 and 2010, and most actually had them as the pick to win it all, especially after acquiring Jamison and Shaq, the Cavs winning the title was pretty much a forgone conclusion. Brining up the Cavs after LeBron is disingenuous. That Cavs team that lost 26 straight games had starting line ups during the year of Alonzo Gee/JJ Hickson/Anthony Parker/Ramon Sessions/Samardo Samuels and Christian Eyenga/JJ Hickson/Anthony Parker/Antawn Jamison/Manny Harris and Byron Scott as the head coach. How is that any reflection of LeBron James or the 2009/2010 Cavs? Please explain this rationale.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Also, let me clarify my stance:

I think there have been ATGs with worse than Lebron 08-10, like Wade 08-10, Kobe 04-07, Tmac in orlando, KG in some of his Minny years. But none of those guys won close to back-to-back 60 win seasons. So in terms of making the most out of their shitty surroundings, it's LeBron in a landslide.

[SouBeachTalents]

Also, let me clarify my stance:

I think there have been ATGs with worse than Lebron 08-10, like Wade 08-10, Kobe 04-07, Tmac in orlando, KG in some of his Minny years. But none of those guys won close to back-to-back 60 win seasons. So in terms of making the most out of their surroundings, it's LeBron in a landslide.

Really, who else ya got? Hakeem?

[Droid101]

How so?
Gasol, the guy who is what, 0-12 in the playoffs without Kobe?

That guy?

[SouBeachTalents]

Gasol, the guy who is what, 0-12 in the playoffs without Kobe?

That guy?

The guy who put up 19 & 10 on 54% on the Lakers from 08-11, and also put up 19 & 11 on 56% in their championship runs? Yes that guy

[Trollsmasher]

So if the team was so bad why did the cavs have more 60 win seasons than the heat..?
LeBron

[aj1987]

They were favored to make it out of the East in 2009 and 2010, and most actually had them as the pick to win it all, especially after acquiring Jamison and Shaq, the Cavs winning the title was pretty much a forgone conclusion. Brining up the Cavs after LeBron is disingenuous. That Cavs team that lost 26 straight games had starting line ups during the year of Alonzo Gee/JJ Hickson/Anthony Parker/Ramon Sessions/Samardo Samuels and Christian Eyenga/JJ Hickson/Anthony Parker/Antawn Jamison/Manny Harris and Byron Scott as the head coach. How is that any reflection of LeBron James or the 2009/2010 Cavs? Please explain this rationale.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

LeBron was MVP and 2nd in DPOY voting. Dude was absolutely amazing.

Miami went from being first round fodder to being in 4 Finals. That MIGHT have something to do with LeBron. Miami won with Wade and Bosh averaging 16 and 12 in the playoffs. Two of LeBron's best scorers.

That Cav's team would've won 25 at best without LeBron. Won 66 with him.

If you're trying to diminish a players impact, you NEED to pick another dude, 'cause LeBron literally improves EVERY team that he's on. Can't say the say for the dude whose dick you ride.

[lakerspng]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

LeBron was MVP and 2nd in DPOY voting. Dude was absolutely amazing.

Miami went from being first round fodder to being in 4 Finals. That MIGHT have something to do with LeBron. Miami won with Wade and Bosh averaging 16 and 12 in the playoffs. Two of LeBron's best scorers.

That Cav's team would've won 25 at best without LeBron. Won 66 with him.

If you're trying to diminish a players impact, you NEED to pick another dude, 'cause LeBron literally improves EVERY team that he's on. Can't say the say for the dude whose dick you ride.

that cavs team was gutted, they lost a lot more than LeBron that year and went into full tank mode.

[aj1987]

that cavs team was gutted, they lost a lot more than LeBron that year and went into full tank mode.
What?

Not talking about the '11 team. Remove LeBron from the '09 and '10 teams. How many games do they win?

[SouBeachTalents]

What?

Not talking about the '11 team. Remove LeBron from the '09 and '10 teams. How many games do they win?

If anyone says over 35 they're being untruthful imo

[lakerspng]

What?

Not talking about the '11 team. Remove LeBron from the '09 and '10 teams. How many games do they win?

team was built around him being its centerpiece. of course they would not be nearly as successful without him.

same way the Lakers were not as successful when Shaq was injured, even though we had solid role players and Kobe running the program. Team was built to feature his presence and offensive and defensive schemes were designed to maximize that.

obviously the drop off, for the Cavs without lebron is steeper than the lakers with kobe and without shaq... but just illustrating the point. when a team is built and the centerpiece is removed, the team suffers, pretty simple concept.

LeBron clearly made that team what it was, but not because the other players were sh1t, but because that particular group of players was designed to fit around his skill set and style. they had solid players who had been very successful at other teams in other systems, they just happen to also fit in well with what Cavs management had planned for their LeBron-centric system.

that's not a knock on anyone, it is what it is.... a team sport.

[Ne 1]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

LeBron was MVP and 2nd in DPOY voting. Dude was absolutely amazing.

Miami went from being first round fodder to being in 4 Finals. That MIGHT have something to do with LeBron. Miami won with Wade and Bosh averaging 16 and 12 in the playoffs. Two of LeBron's best scorers.

That Cav's team would've won 25 at best without LeBron. Won 66 with him.

If you're trying to diminish a players impact, you NEED to pick another dude, 'cause LeBron literally improves EVERY team that he's on. Can't say the say for the dude whose dick you ride.
If you take away a superstar, its not uncommon that his team will struggle. Without David Robinson, San Antonio was a lottery team in '97, look at the Magic without Dwight. Just because the Cavs struggled doesn't mean it was because of LeBron playing with bums. It's the team they built. They were basically a one man show on offense. Similar to the '01 Sixers with AI carrying the scoring load. Without LeBron, there was nobody to run the offense, but they were an elite defensive, rebounding and 3-point shooting team, with great role/hustle players that suited Lebron's playing style and didn't need the ball in their hands to contribute. But that doesn't mean they were playing with a bunch of worthless bums, not capable of winning anything. A lot of wins in regular season is nice but its been done many times by even teams that were a one man show on offense.

[SpecialQue]

This shit again?

[houston]

What?

Not talking about the '11 team. Remove LeBron from the '09 and '10 teams. How many games do they win?


it got quiet lol. For the record Mo Williams was injury replacement all-star.

[ArbitraryWater]

Oh yeah? Why didn't his other players sink their threes this year, then?

More like why didn't the Cavaliers continue to be so great 3 point shooting wise and defensively when LeBron left?

[aj1987]

team was built around him being its centerpiece. of course they would not be nearly as successful without him.

same way the Lakers were not as successful when Shaq was injured, even though we had solid role players and Kobe running the program. Team was built to feature his presence and offensive and defensive schemes were designed to maximize that.

obviously the drop off, for the Cavs without lebron is steeper than the lakers with kobe and without shaq... but just illustrating the point. when a team is built and the centerpiece is removed, the team suffers, pretty simple concept.

LeBron clearly made that team what it was, but not because the other players were sh1t, but because that particular group of players was designed to fit around his skill set and style. they had solid players who had been very successful at other teams in other systems, they just happen to also fit in well with what Cavs management had planned for their LeBron-centric system.

that's not a knock on anyone, it is what it is.... a team sport.
Wow! Finally a decent basketball conversation on this board!

Sure, the team was definitely built around LeBron. Not saying otherwise. What I'm saying is that the players that they had were subpar. I don't have the exact stats on me right now, but most of them choked in the playoffs. I mean, LeBron averaged 35/9/7/2/1 on the playoffs in '09 on 62% TS. Rest of the team averaged around 52% TS.

People say that LeBron "quit" on his team in '10, but fail to look at what the rest of his team scored. His team flat out QUIT on him in '09 and '10.

Again, remove LeBron from the '09 and '10 Cavs, they aren't making the Playoffs.

Remove Kobe from the '09 and '10 Lakers, they're still making the Playoffs (first round fodder though).


If you take away a superstar, its not uncommon that his team will struggle. Without David Robinson, San Antonio was a lottery team in '97, look at the Magic without Dwight. Just because the Cavs struggled doesn't mean it was because of LeBron playing with bums. It's the team they built. They were basically a one man show on offense. Similar to the '01 Sixers with AI carrying the scoring load. Without LeBron, there was nobody to run the offense, but they were an elite defensive, rebounding and 3-point shooting team, with great role/hustle players that suited Lebron's playing style and didn't need the ball in their hands to contribute. But that doesn't mean they were playing with a bunch of worthless bums, not capable of winning anything. A lot of wins in regular season is nice but its been done many times by even teams that were a one man show on offense.
They were elite defensively in '09 and '10 because of LeBron. If only LeBron had his 2nd best player averaging 20/10 on 60% TS in the Playoffs or his 3rd averaging 13/9 on the same efficiency.

Stop posting, Kobetard.

[lakerspng]

they may or may not have made the playoffs. Gasol and Odom would have been effective for the most part, but enough to get 45-50 wins in the west? I don't know who on the team is putting up the 30 ppg to make up for the loss of Kobe. That's a big void.

I don't think LeBron quit on his team. I think he played his arse off. He certainly had to deal with major letdowns from teammates. I think LeBron's a great player, an all time great, despite what I still feel are a few flaws that keep him from his real potential.

Any team's incredibly lucky to be able to build their franchise around a guy like him.

[aj1987]

they may or may not have made the playoffs. Gasol and Odom would have been effective for the most part, but enough to get 45-50 wins in the west? I don't know who on the team is putting up the 30 ppg to make up for the loss of Kobe. That's a big void.

I don't think LeBron quit on his team. I think he played his arse off. He certainly had to deal with major letdowns from teammates. I think LeBron's a great player, an all time great, despite what I still feel are a few flaws that keep him from his real potential.

Any team's incredibly lucky to be able to build their franchise around a guy like him.
True. Getting 45-50 wins is extremely hard, but you can't deny that Kobe had a better team around him. I could make a post with all the players' ages and numbers (of LeBron's teammates), but people would still say that LeBron had good teammates.

[Ne 1]

Wow! Finally a decent basketball conversation on this board!

Sure, the team was definitely built around LeBron. Not saying otherwise. What I'm saying is that the players that they had were subpar. I don't have the exact stats on me right now, but most of them choked in the playoffs. I mean, LeBron averaged 35/9/7/2/1 on the playoffs in '09 on 62% TS. Rest of the team averaged around 52% TS.

People say that LeBron "quit" on his team in '10, but fail to look at what the rest of his team scored. His team flat out QUIT on him in '09 and '10.

Again, remove LeBron from the '09 and '10 Cavs, they aren't making the Playoffs.

Remove Kobe from the '09 and '10 Lakers, they're still making the Playoffs (first round fodder though).


They were elite defensively in '09 and '10 because of LeBron. If only LeBron had his 2nd best player averaging 20/10 on 60% TS in the Playoffs or his 3rd averaging 13/9 on the same efficiency.

Stop posting, Kobetard.
2007 when the made the Finals they were also an elite defensive and rebounding team, this was when LeBron didn't play defense consistently. In fact, their team defense and rebounding was a huge reason they made it to the Finals. http://i43.tinypic.com/v8elpi.jpg If only LeBron didn't check out after game 3 vs Boston...now we'll never know how far that team could have gone. And If the team was that bad, how did they manage to stay competitive with the Celtics when Lebron shot 2-20 and had 10 turnovers? The fact is that this teams were tailor made for a perimeter star player.

[Ne 1]

2006 Wizards (42-40)
2007 Wizards (42-40)
2007 Nets (41-41)
2007 Pistons (53-29)
2008 Wizards (43-39)
2009 Pistons (39-43)
2009 Hawks (47-35)
2010 Bulls (41-41)


There isn't an all star in this league incapable of duplicating Lebron's "success" with the Cavs. Those teams dont even make the playoffs in the West.

Any superstar in league history when paired with a top defensive, top rebounding and top three point shooting supporting cast is capable of duplicating what Lebron accomplished given the competition with the Cavs. People with agendas love to make his teammates look worse than they are just to prop up LeBron. The team perfectly complimented his talents or any superstar wing for that matter.

[SouBeachTalents]

2007 when the made the Finals they were also an elite defensive and rebounding team, this was when LeBron didn't play defense consistently. In fact, their team defense and rebounding was a huge reason they made it to the Finals. http://i43.tinypic.com/v8elpi.jpg If only LeBron didn't check out after game 3 vs Boston...now we'll never know how far that team could have gone. And If the team was that bad, how did they manage to stay competitive with the Celtics when Lebron shot 2-20 and had 10 turnovers? The fact is that this teams were tailor made for a perimeter star player.

What game was this?

[Artillery]

2007 when the made the Finals they were also an elite defensive and rebounding team, this was when LeBron didn't play defense consistently. In fact, their team defense and rebounding was a huge reason they made it to the Finals. http://i43.tinypic.com/v8elpi.jpg If only LeBron didn't check out after game 3 vs Boston...know we'll never know how far that team could have gone. And If the team was that bad, how did they manage to stay competitive with the Celtics when Lebron shot 2-20 and had 10 turnovers? The fact is that this teams were tailor made for a perimeter star player.

Every expert picked Lakers to beat the Mavs in 2011. They also picked the Lakers to beat the Pistons in 2004. Kobe sabotaged both series for his team,

[NBAplayoffs2001]

2007 when the made the Finals they were also an elite defensive and rebounding team, this was when LeBron didn't play defense consistently. In fact, their team defense and rebounding was a huge reason they made it to the Finals. http://i43.tinypic.com/v8elpi.jpg If only LeBron didn't check out after game 3 vs Boston...now we'll never know how far that team could have gone. And If the team was that bad, how did they manage to stay competitive with the Celtics when Lebron shot 2-20 and had 10 turnovers? The fact is that this teams were tailor made for a perimeter star player.

Wow, never seen this image before. To be honest, I thought the Cavs had a great chance in winning in 09.

[aj1987]

2007 when the made the Finals they were also an elite defensive and rebounding team, this was when LeBron didn't play defense consistently. In fact, their team defense and rebounding was a huge reason they made it to the Finals. http://i43.tinypic.com/v8elpi.jpg If only LeBron didn't check out after game 3 vs Boston...now we'll never know how far that team could have gone. And If the team was that bad, how did they manage to stay competitive with the Celtics when Lebron shot 2-20 and had 10 turnovers? The fact is that this teams were tailor made for a perimeter star player.
Good for you. ESPN. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:


What happened when the Lakers were the favorites in '04 or in '11 against the Mav's as Artillery said?


There isn't an all star in this league incapable of duplicating Lebron's "success" with the Cavs. Those teams dont even make the playoffs in the West.

Replace LeBron with Kobe from his rookie year, and the Lakers probably 5peat. None of that 16 PPG on 36% or 22 PPG on 38% in the Finals like Chuckbe did. I mean why they **** would you shoot that much when your teammate is an arguable top 5 GOAT.

There isn't an all-star SG who isn't capable of "winning" (more like carried) 5 rings like Chuckbe did with the Lakers. Heck, there are players who would've won more as well.

A 66 win team and a 61 win team doesn't make the playoffs in the West? :facepalm

[BigBoss]

Smush Parker
Kobe Bryant
Lamar Odom
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm

45 wins.

Godbe :bowdown:

[Ne 1]

Every expert picked Lakers to beat the Mavs in 2011. They also picked the Lakers to beat the Pistons in 2004. Kobe sabotaged both series for his team,
True, just like everyone was picking the Heat to beat the Mavs as well. Kobe had an awful series in 2004, but that's hardly the only reason they lost. Malone was injured, Payton was atrocious on both ends of the floor, Shaq was lazy on defense and on the boards and the rest of the team outside of Shaq actually shot terribly, not just Kobe.

[Warfan]

To the question, no. Tmac in Orlando had some pathetic ass teams, kobe had a terrible cast for a year or 2 and I can go on.

I don't blame bron at all for 09 though, some of the best basketball ive ever watched and he torched Orlando but Mo and co didn't do shit. Against Boston I give him shit for game 5 but he came to play in game 6 despite what some people might say.


Every expert picked Lakers to beat the Mavs in 2011. They also picked the Lakers to beat the Pistons in 2004. Kobe sabotaged both series for his team,

And they picked LA to beat Boston in 08 too...

[russwest0]

Smush Parker
Kobe Bryant
Lamar Odom
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm

45 wins.

Godbe :bowdown:

In the Western Conference too :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[hiphopfan777]

Lebron had no helo. Proof cleveland went from 62 to 19 eins when he left and had the second longest losing streak 27 in nba history. Talk about carrying. Jordans team won 55 when he bailed out to play baseball.
By the way lebeon excelled in football as well as basketball in high school but jordan failed in two sports

[nzahir]

Agreed OP. Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Danny Green, Carlos Boozer, Shaquille O'Neal, Anderson Varejao, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas are all scrubs :applause:
Lol i love no context...
Remember how kobe couldnt win with malone(top 2 pf), payton(top 5-10 pg), and shaq(top 3 center of all time) and Horry, grant, fox, and fisher.

[Fork]

62 wins to 19 wins is all you need to know

[Thorn]

I don't know if it's fair to condemn Lebron's Cleveland teammates as terrible. As lakerspng said, the players around Lebron fit well to Lebron's strength. For example, we know that Lebron's drive and kick is by far the best in the league. What does Cleveland do? Gives him a few shooters (Mo, West, Gibson...) and gives him space by adding a hustle guy like Varejao. Miami was built similarly. Their best lineups came with Lebron + 4 shooters and even though 13 Wade was better than someone like Allen, Allen fit their best lineups better.

I think the reason that the Cavs flamed out in the playoffs despite Lebron's ridiculous play is because the offense they chose to run had high variance. Very high highs and corresponding low lows. The three isn't a particularly reliable shot - Lebron can deliver the ball to his shooters' spots all game and the shot just might not be there because even the best shooters only hit 40% of their threes. This system worked in Miami because not only did they have more consistent shooters (Jones/Miller/Allen/Battier/Chalmers/Cole, even Bosh), they had MORE of them. The finicky nature of the three is mitigated if there are more people to fire them. Chalmers is cold? Allen can come in. With the Cavs, they were less consistent and had less shooters.

You can see the same thing in Miami. The championship Heat wiped the floor with defenses when they had Lebron + Bosh + 3 shooters. It was clear that their shooters were just a smidge more consistent and better than what the Cavs had. Had the Cavs had Allen or Miller in place of Mo and West, or even if Danny Green was getting good minutes on the 10 Cavs, they'd probably be in the Finals.

This is in contrast to the Kobe/Pau Lakers teams. Kobe's game fits better with Pau's than Lebron's would since Lebron likes the space down low to drive. But since Kobe had a competent post option in Pau, their offense was far more reliable. The 09 and 10 Cavs were 3rd and 8th in three point makes respectively while the 09 and 10 Lakers were 17th and 13th. That's why the Lakers' offense didn't fall apart in the playoffs while the Cavs did. The Lakers weren't relying enormously on the three. It wasn't Lebron's fault. It was more a fault of their system. Whether their system's weaknesses were caused by the Cavs' desire to maximize Lebron's strength is another story. For example, the 12-14 Heat were an awful rebounding team, so everyone got on Lebron's teammates for being terrible rebounders, but players like Haslem who would've helped there destroyed the spacing against intelligent defenses, so they couldn't play. Stuff like that.

[Droid101]

Lebron had no helo. Proof cleveland went from 62 to 19 eins when he left and had the second longest losing streak 27 in nba history. Talk about carrying.
62 wins to 19 wins is all you need to know

This lie ends today.

They didn't just lose LeBron when they dropped from 61 to 19 wins. They lost the following:

LeBron, Shaq, Delonte West, Zydrunas. Not to mention Mo Williams missed 48 games, and Andy V missed 51.

Leading minutes for Cavs in 2010: Bron, Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Andy V, JJ Hickson, Delonte, Zydrunas.

Leading minutes in 2011: JJ Hickson, Ramon Sessions, Anthony Parker, Daniel Gibson, Antawn Jamison, Ryan Hollins, Mo Williams.

Hickson was their leading scorer with 18 per game. Nobody played all 82 games. Nobody STARTED more than 66 (JJ 66, Parker 65, the rest under 40 starts).

The team COMPLETELY changed when LeBron left. Please don't bring this up ever again.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Minny KG by FAR'

Jaric
Hassell
Ricky Davis
Olowakandi
Blount
Sprewell
Eddie Griffin
hobbled Cassell

LOL its not even ****ing close. And KG was playing on one of the best conferences EVER

[SouBeachTalents]

Minny KG by FAR'

Jaric
Hassell
Ricky Davis
Olowakandi
Blount
Sprewell
Eddie Griffin
hobbled Cassell

LOL its not even ****ing close. And KG was playing on one of the best conferences EVER

KG definitely has an argument, his teams were regularly ****ing trash

[GODbe]

Smush Parker
Kobe Bryant
Lamar Odom
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm

45 wins.

Godbe :bowdown:
GOAT gonna GOAT:applause: .

[Droid101]

Minny KG by FAR'

Jaric
Hassell
Ricky Davis
Olowakandi
Blount
Sprewell
Eddie Griffin
hobbled Cassell

LOL its not even ****ing close. And KG was playing on one of the best conferences EVER
Yeah, that shit was ugly. Sprewell declined so fast after their nice playoff run. No idea what happened there.

Everyone on the team tuned out for some reason.

[Cleverness]

Did he have any (in their prime) hall of fame teammates in 7 years?

I know he had AARP-Shaq for a year, but was he the only HOF teammate?

What other top 15 GOAT players never had a HOF teammate in their prime?

[That_Admiral]

Did he have any (in their prime) hall of fame teammates in 7 years?

I know he had AARP-Shaq for a year, but was he the only HOF teammate?

What other top 15 GOAT players never had a HOF teammate in their prime?

would you consider tim duncan in 1999 with david robinson as being one? I mean drob wasn't really in his prime then

[Ne 1]

There isn't a superstar in NBA history who isn't capable of "winning" (more like carried) 1.5 rings like Queen James did with the Heat. Heck, there are players who would've won more as well. Prime MJ or Kobe easily 5-peats playing with 2 other top players from their own draft class and the GOAT 3-point shooter.
Agreed.
A 66 win team and a 61 win team doesn't make the playoffs in the West?
I said those teams he beat in the playoffs wouldn't, not the Cavs. Reading comprehension fail.

[J Shuttlesworth]

So was there an answer to this thread? Which all time great had a worse team than the Cavs, and made it to the finals?

[SouBeachTalents]

Did he have any (in their prime) hall of fame teammates in 7 years?

I know he had AARP-Shaq for a year, but was he the only HOF teammate?

What other top 15 GOAT players never had a HOF teammate in their prime?

This. As someone else said maybe Duncan, but I think the '99 version of David Robinson, who put up 18 & 11 on 51% and provided good defense is much better than any teammate LeBron had in Cleveland

[SouBeachTalents]

So was there an answer to this thread? Which all time great had a worse team than the Cavs, and made it to the finals?

In terms of just making the Finals, I'd say Hakeem in '94 has a strong argument. As for another all time great who went 7 seasons with worse teammates, besides KG I haven't seen a better example yet

[knicksman]

lebron makes his teammates worse. Dirk had a comparable talent and won 67. Mavs 2011 went on a losing streak when there was out. People overrate lebron when actually he just makes his teammates worse. And in b4 cavs had the worse record when he left. LOL we gonna act like cavs didnt have the assurance of the top pick if they tank that season.

[knicksman]

So was there an answer to this thread? Which all time great had a worse team than the Cavs, and made it to the finals?

LOL at these low standard bran stans. Anyone can get to the finals in that pathetic eastern conference

[SouBeachTalents]

LOL at these low standard bran stans. Anyone can get to the finals in that pathetic eastern conference

Except the Knicks

[ILLsmak]

I've actually just recently heard that he had 66 winshares that year they won 66 games. Turns out he did everything and his teammates did literally nothing. :bowdown:

lol, he'd pass the ball in a way that would hit their chest, roll up their arms and go into the basket.

-Smak

[J Shuttlesworth]

Except the Knicks
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Kevin-Garnett-Reaction-at-2013-Dunk-Contest.gif

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Yeah, that shit was ugly. Sprewell declined so fast after their nice playoff run. No idea what happened there.

Everyone on the team tuned out for some reason.
Plus the shady as shit Joe Smith scandal which caused the team a bunch of 1st round draft picks:facepalm :facepalm

[6 for 24]

Smush Parker
Kobe Bryant
Lamar Odom
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm

45 wins.

Godbe :bowdown:

I am so glad you brought this up, because I was about to say the same thing! Kobe was truly stupendous in taking that team to the #7 seed in '06! And then he almost upset a veritable all-star team featuring such NBA legends such as Raja Bell and Tim Thomas.. a team "MVP" Steve Nash could only take the #2 seed that year! (Don't worry haters.. we saw how exposed Mr. Nash was when he joined up with Kobe and was rightly relegated to the spot-up shooter he should have been all along!)

[J Shuttlesworth]

I am so glad you brought this up, because I was about to say the same thing! Kobe was truly stupendous in taking that team to the #7 seed in '06! And then he almost upset a veritable all-star team featuring such NBA legends such as Raja Bell and Tim Thomas.. a team "MVP" Steve Nash could only take the #2 seed that year! (Don't worry haters.. we saw how exposed Mr. Nash was when he joined up with Kobe and was rightly relegated to the spot-up shooter he should have been all along!)
WTF man? How you not gonna give me your warmest regards? Rude mother****er

Warmest regards,

-J Shuttlesworth

[Big#50]

He had a good team around him. He just failed to beat some teams. His team failed. It happens. No player ever won 100% of his games. Wish this forum's posters spend more time talking ball instead of just trying to prop and bring players down. Specially when talking about greats. Just respect. Watch the game and appreciate. ****ing kids man.

[Keno]

Agreed OP. Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Danny Green, Carlos Boozer, Shaquille O'Neal, Anderson Varejao, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas are all scrubs :applause:

lmao at listing a bunch of 6th string, role player scrubs acting like that's a good argument for you. you're just adding on to op's point.

[Purch]

Wow at least try and pretend to know about Miami before the big 3 era.

D wade's supporting cast from 08-10 was significantly worse:facepalm

[Nowitness]

Kobe.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wow at least try and pretend to know about Miami before the big 3 era.

D wade's supporting cast from 08-10 was significantly worse:facepalm

Reading comprehension fail, I said for as long as LeBron did, and last I checked 3 < 7

[riseagainst]

In large part due to LeBron...

lol?
lmao.

this is how you know no one even watched lebron on the cavs.

:roll:

[hawke812]

LeBron was not a very good defensive player at that stage in his career, it was one of his weaknesses. They were a great defensive team because they had a lot of strong defensive players on the team. They were built that way. and they specifically brought in great 3 point shooters to camp the perimeter because it fit LeBron's style of ball. it was no accident.

Are you claiming they built a team AROUND Lebron James:biggums:

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

2008-2009

LeBron on Court: ORTG: 115.6 DRTG: 100.6 Net: +15
LeBron off Court: ORTG: 102.6 DRTG: 108.8 Net: -6.2

Total: +21.2....

You realize how absurd that is?? IIRC that is the highest On/Off EVER recorded...

Also, RAPM for 2008-09: +11.3. 2nd highest ever recorded...(only to himself in 09-10)

LeBron in 2008-09-10 was probably the biggest carrying of a team i have ever seen.

This led me down a wormhole, and I found:

KG, 2002-2003: +23.6
2003-2004: +20.7

Dirk, 2002-2003: +20.7

These are fun to look up I must say

[JohnFreeman]

Probably just Iverson

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

the 2002-2003 Spurs are pretty comparable to that Cavs team. It was Duncan, a couple of solid guys and a bunch of role players. But Duncan had to carry an unbelievable load that year. Robinson averaged 8 and 7; he was 38 and done. Parker hadn't hit his stride yet. Ginobili averaged 7 points and 20 minutes as a rookie. Steve Smith, Claxton and Malik Rose were playing significant minutes for them. But they played strong team defense, played selflessly much like those Cavs teams (one of the most selfless teams in the league), and were well-coached, and they beat 2 great Lakers and Mavs teams en route to the finals. I implore you guys to go on bball ref and check out the 2002-2003 Spurs individual playoff per game averages and shooting numbers. That was such a bad offensive team outside of Duncan. Parker and Ginobili shot a combined 39% during the playoffs. Clearly neither of them were that borderline number 1 guy at that point in their careers. Neither was a decrepit Robinson.

Should LeBron have been expected to do the same as Duncan? No, he had the odds stacked against him, but that Cavs team winning a championship would not have been a COMPLETE aberration.

Not hating on LeBrons unquestionable greatness as a player, just saying the teams he played on deserved a bit more credit than some people give them.

[riseagainst]

why are we comparing all-time greats and lebron?

[T_L_P]

the 2002-2003 Spurs are pretty comparable to that Cavs team. It was Duncan, a couple of solid guys and a bunch of role players. But Duncan had to carry an unbelievable load that year. Robinson averaged 8 and 7; he was 38 and done. Parker hadn't hit his stride yet. Ginobili averaged 7 points and 20 minutes as a rookie. Steve Smith, Claxton and Malik Rose were playing significant minutes for them. But they played strong team defense, played selflessly much like those Cavs teams (one of the most selfless teams in the league), and were well-coached, and they beat 2 great Lakers and Mavs teams en route to the finals. I implore you guys to go on bball ref and check out the 2002-2003 Spurs individual playoff per game averages and shooting numbers. That was such a bad offensive team outside of Duncan. Parker and Ginobili shot a combined 39% during the playoffs. Clearly neither of them were that borderline number 1 guy at that point in their careers. Neither was a decrepit Robinson.

Should LeBron have been expected to do the same as Duncan? No, he had the odds stacked against him, but that Cavs team winning a championship would not have been a COMPLETE aberration.

Not hating on LeBrons unquestionable greatness as a player, just saying the teams he played on deserved a bit more credit than some people give them.

:applause:

[SouBeachTalents]

why are we comparing all-time greats and lebron?

Because 4 MVP's and 2 Finals MVP's before the age of 30 is total garbage

[Just2McFly]

T-mac/Iverson for starters sure did

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Because 4 MVP's and 2 Finals MVP's before the age of 30 is total garbage

Joining his crush down south doesn't really help the argument :confusedshrug:

[riseagainst]

Because 4 MVP's and 2 Finals MVP's before the age of 30 is total garbage

why are you insulting lebron james? He is not garbage. He is one of the best in nba history. One of the 30 greatest players of all time.

[dubeta]

why are you insulting lebron james? He is not garbage. He is one of the best in nba history. One of the 30 greatest players of all time.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. LeBron
4. Bron
5. Bran
6. King James

..
30. Chosen One

??

[Solefade]

Good point Swish, Kobes team with Smush, Kwame, Walton was worse than anything LeBron has ever had.


07 lakers had at least lamar odom, 2007's 2nd best player was boobie gibson :oldlol:

[edrick]

Agreed OP. Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Danny Green, Carlos Boozer, Shaquille O'Neal, Anderson Varejao, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas are all scrubs :applause:

All of those players were on the team at the same time and were also in their primes? :rolleyes:

[riseagainst]

All of those players were on the team at the same time and were also in their primes? :rolleyes:

how much help does lebron need? geez.

[davehos]

Agreed OP. Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Danny Green, Carlos Boozer, Shaquille O'Neal, Anderson Varejao, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas are all scrubs :applause:

Yeah, my first response was Mo Williams and Varejao are scrubs? Ilgauskas walks on water in Cleveland.

[russwest0]

how much help does lebron need? geez.

This.

Being in the East is easy enough as it is, he shouldn't need the damn dream team as a supporting cast just to win it all.

[edrick]

how much help does lebron need? geez.

Mo Williams was the best player Lebron played with in Cleveland.

Pointing out players that were near retirement, Shaq, then adding Danny Green, who wasn't even playing. :facepalm

[Magic 32]

Those Kobe teams were god awful, but he only had to deal with that for 3 seasons, less than half the time LeBron did.

But Lebron did not waste his peak years.

2006
2007
2008

3 MVP's if Kobe had a quality team around him.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

To those people who say those teams were good:

Name me a team that won 66 or more games in NBA history with a worse supporting cast around their star player.

[Magic 32]

To those people who say those teams were good:

Name me a team that won 66 or more games in NBA history with a worse supporting cast around their star player.

http://s29.postimg.org/a8mi6c26v/Mountrushmore.jpg

[RoundMoundOfReb]

http://s29.postimg.org/a8mi6c26v/Mountrushmore.jpg
What does this have to do with anything?

[Magic 32]

What does this have to do with anything?

Work it out.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Work it out.
Players who made the finals with crappy teams? What does that have to do with my question?

[russwest0]

What does this have to do with anything?

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Magic 32]

Players who made the finals with crappy teams? What does that have to do with my question?

They had one more thing in common.

http://brocouncil.com/images/stories/Articles/2013/04april/nba-debate-eastern-conference-weak.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

To those people who say those teams were good:

Name me a team that won 66 or more games in NBA history with a worse supporting cast around their star player.

Lol, I think they failed to comprehend that you specifically asked for a player who won 66 games with worse teammates than LeBron had

As for your question, here's the second best player on every team that won at least 66 games

1992, 96, 97 Bulls- Pippen
1972 Lakers- Wilt or Gail Goodrich
1967 76ers- Hal Greer
1973 Cetics- Cowens
1986 Celtics- McHale
2000 Lakers- Kobe
1971 Bucks- Oscar
2008 Celtics- Pierce
2013 Heat- Wade

Dirk's Mavs in '07 are the only ones that really compare to LeBron's Cavs in '09. Dirk's best teammate that year was Josh Howard, while LeBron's was Mo Williams, so it's fairly comparable

[RoundMoundOfReb]

They had one more thing in common.

http://brocouncil.com/images/stories/Articles/2013/04april/nba-debate-eastern-conference-weak.jpg
First off, I said nba history so there have been plenty of teams playing in bad conferences - 80s west 00s east etc. And you still cant name one team with a worse supporting cast.

Secondly, 09 Cavs were 26-4 vs the western conference. A better win percentage than their east record.

[Droid101]

2000 East sucks. Super easy to make the Finals.

bran had some good Cleveland teams, sorry bruh. You don't win 66 games without a good team. Or are you saying he has less help in Miami since he never won that many games?

And then it begs the question... how much ****ing help does he need really?

[Goldrush25]

2000 East sucks. Super easy to make the Finals.

bran had some good Cleveland teams, sorry bruh. You don't win 66 games without a good team. Or are you saying he has less help in Miami since he never won that many games?

And then it begs the question... how much ****ing help does he need really?


How do you say he had good teams then in the same breath say the East sucks?

If his team performed well record-wise in the context of playing in a poor conference, then the team wasn't as good as their record.

Am I missing something here?:confusedshrug:

Or is just the typical IH trollfest going on?

[riseagainst]

How do you say he had good teams then in the same breath say the East sucks?

If his team performed well record-wise in the context of playing in a poor conference, then the team wasn't as good as their record.

Am I missing something here?:confusedshrug:

Or is just the typical IH trollfest going on?

what's so hard to understand? a 66-win team is a very good team. The rest of the Eastern conference teams are mediocre to bad. So the playoffs are a piece of cake. Do you comprehend?

[davehos]

the 2002-2003 Spurs are pretty comparable to that Cavs team. It was Duncan, a couple of solid guys and a bunch of role players. But Duncan had to carry an unbelievable load that year. Robinson averaged 8 and 7; he was 38 and done. Parker hadn't hit his stride yet. Ginobili averaged 7 points and 20 minutes as a rookie. Steve Smith, Claxton and Malik Rose were playing significant minutes for them. But they played strong team defense, played selflessly much like those Cavs teams (one of the most selfless teams in the league), and were well-coached, and they beat 2 great Lakers and Mavs teams en route to the finals. I implore you guys to go on bball ref and check out the 2002-2003 Spurs individual playoff per game averages and shooting numbers. That was such a bad offensive team outside of Duncan. Parker and Ginobili shot a combined 39% during the playoffs. Clearly neither of them were that borderline number 1 guy at that point in their careers. Neither was a decrepit Robinson.

Should LeBron have been expected to do the same as Duncan? No, he had the odds stacked against him, but that Cavs team winning a championship would not have been a COMPLETE aberration.

Not hating on LeBrons unquestionable greatness as a player, just saying the teams he played on deserved a bit more credit than some people give them.

:cheers:

[J Shuttlesworth]

what's so hard to understand? a 66-win team is a very good team. The rest of the Eastern conference teams are mediocre to bad. So the playoffs are a piece of cake. Do you comprehend?
So you're saying they're good, but only relative to their conference right? People say the Heat this year would have lost in the first round in the west (you included), yet some how his Cavs team is supposed to be considered good?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Probably just Iverson
AI had the 6th man of the year, DPOY and COY in one season
FOH

[NBAplayoffs2001]

AI had the 6th man of the year, DPOY and COY in one season
FOH

To this day, those 2001 playoffs vs the Bucks and Raptors made me see how one dimensionally they relied on AI for offense. That Bucks team was also very fun to watch with the shooters they had: Ray Rice, Glenn Robinson, baby Michael Redd (rookie), and one of the laziest talent I have seen in the past 10 years in Tim Thomas.

[SouBeachTalents]

How do you say he had good teams then in the same breath say the East sucks?

If his team performed well record-wise in the context of playing in a poor conference, then the team wasn't as good as their record.

Am I missing something here?:confusedshrug:

Or is just the typical IH trollfest going on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYpXxRWHLNs

[TheCorporation]

A front court of Big Z, Andy V, Shaq, J.J. Hickson, Jaminson & Leone Powe all on the same team.

Just stop.

:lol :roll: :lol Oh yeah?

Varejao

2009: 8.6 ppg, 7.2 rpg. 1.0 apg
2010: 8.6 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 1.1 apg

Shaq *ONE season...

2010: 12 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.5 apg

Big Z

2009: 12.9 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.0 apg
2010: 7.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, .8 apg

JJ Hickson

2009: 4.0 ppg, 2.7 rpg, .1 apg :lol You know shit is bad when you mention a goddamn rookie as being "great help" for LeBron. Man, you know you've lost the argument when you bring up JJ Hickson as a great help for LBJ.
2010: 8.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, .5 apg


Antawn Jamison *ONE year :lol

2010: 15.8 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 1.3 apg


So...LeBron's out of all of LeBron's "great" help in Cleveland you mentioned, he:

-Never had a guy average more than 15.8 ppg
-Never had a guy average more than 7.7 rpg

And both of these stats came from Antwan Jamison...Who played with LeBron for one year. His best statistical help, came from an aging player on the decline, who played with LeBron for one year. Let it sink in...This was the best production help he ever got.

[TheMarkMadsen]

:lol :roll: :lol Oh yeah?

Varejao

2009: 8.6 ppg, 7.2 rpg. 1.0 apg
2010: 8.6 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 1.1 apg

Shaq *ONE season...

2010: 12 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.5 apg

Big Z

2009: 12.9 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.0 apg
2010: 7.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, .8 apg

JJ Hickson

2009: 4.0 ppg, 2.7 rpg, .1 apg :lol You know shit is bad when you mention a goddamn rookie as being "great help" for LeBron. Man, you know you've lost the argument when you bring up JJ Hickson as a great help for LBJ.
2010: 8.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, .5 apg


Antawn Jamison *ONE year :lol

2010: 15.8 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 1.3 apg


So...LeBron's out of all of LeBron's "great" help in Cleveland you mentioned, he:

-Never had a guy average more than 15.8 ppg
-Never had a guy average more than 7.7 rpg

And both of these stats came from Antwan Jamison...Who played with LeBron for one year. His best statistical help, came from an aging player on the decline, who played with LeBron for one year. Let it sink in...This was the best production help he ever got.

In what world is that not an incredibly deep front court?

2010: 9 & 8 from Andy V, 12 & 7 from Shaq, 7 & 5 from big z, 9 & 5 from Hickson, 16 & 8 from Jaminson.. All on the same team

Not to mention Mo putting up like 16 & 5 that same year.

[Collie]

Some examples:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1987.html

Do you even recognize a single name there other than Charles Oakley and/or John Paxson? Some dude named Earl Cureton started 36 games! Other starters include such renowned ballers like Granville Waiters, Steven Colter and Gene Banks.

How about the next year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1988.html

Now, we get Pippen and Ho Grant... but WAIT! 7 ppg? 20 mpg?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1977.html

Do you know who Lucius Allen or Cazzie Russell is? Russell would probably be equivalent to Caron Butler today. Heck, the most famous guy next to KAJ was Kermit Washington,and more because he punched a guy nearly to death.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

In what world is that not an incredibly deep front court?

2010: 9 & 8 from Andy V, 12 & 7 from Shaq, 7 & 5 from big z, 9 & 5 from Hickson, 16 & 8 from Jaminson.. All on the same team

Not to mention Mo putting up like 16 & 5 that same year.

2013 Lakers: 17/12 from Dwight, 14/9 from Pau, 9/5 from Jamison, 7/6 from Clark, 7/6 from Jordan Hill


According to your idiotic logic of just listing off numbers without context this is a "stacked" front court.

[TheMarkMadsen]

2013 Lakers: 17/12 from Dwight, 14/9 from Pau, 9/5 from Jamison, 7/6 from Clark, 7/6 from Jordan Hill


According to your idiotic logic of just listing off numbers without context this is a "stacked" front court.

Lol

Jordan Hill played 29 games, Pau played in 49 games, Steven Nash in 50 games, Clark 59 games, Dwight 76, Jaminson 76


Jaminson played 25 games, Shaq 53 games, Big Z played in 64, Mo Will 69 games, Andy V 76 games, JJ 81 games

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Lol

Jordan Hill played 29 games, Pau played in 49 games, Steven Nash in 50 games, Clark 59 games, Dwight 76, Jaminson 76


Jaminson played 25 games, Shaq 53 games, Big Z played in 64, Mo Will 69 games, Andy V 76 games, JJ 81 games

I'm not really comparing the 2 teams, just showing how idiotic it is to just rattle of numbers like that.

[joshwake]

The other starting 4 of the 2014 heat averaged less points total than the 4 on the 2009 cavs

[miller-time]

Agreed OP. Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Danny Green, Carlos Boozer, Shaquille O'Neal, Anderson Varejao, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas are all scrubs :applause:

Their careers went from strength to strength after they stopped playing with LeBron. Remember all of those All-star teams Mo Williams and Varejao made post LeBron?

[pauk]

Define all-time great? Top 10? Then the answer is an easy no.... not at least for as much time as Lebron did...

[SouBeachTalents]

Define all-time great? Top 10? Then the answer is an easy no.... not at least for as much time as Lebron did...

I'd say even top 25

[Roundball_Rock]

Good points, Collie, but it is worth noting MJ did have a 20+ ppg second scorer and 16 ppg third scorer his first two seasons. People act is he the Bulls never had a 20 ppg second scorer until Pippen.

[lilgodfather1]

LeBron's 2014 team mates lol.

[Goldrush25]

what's so hard to understand? a 66-win team is a very good team. The rest of the Eastern conference teams are mediocre to bad. So the playoffs are a piece of cake. Do you comprehend?

But if their conference sucks, those 66 wins aren't really that remarkable. They beat a bunch of scrubs to get to 66 wins. So how good are they really?:confusedshrug:

Do you also say a boxer is great just because of his undefeated record, without seeing the tomato cans he beat to get that record?

[riseagainst]

But if their conference sucks, those 66 wins aren't really that remarkable. They beat a bunch of scrubs to get to 66 wins. So how good are they really?:confusedshrug:

Do you also say a boxer is great just because of his undefeated record, without seeing the tomato cans he beat to get that record?

well there you go. That's the point. They beat up on scrubs to get to 66 wins and into the finals. Compared to the West, it's child's play. Not hard when your team is the best team in the conference.

[edrick]

Their careers went from strength to strength after they stopped playing with LeBron. Remember all of those All-star teams Mo Williams and Varejao made post LeBron?

Context is unimportant to some people, especially when it doesn't fit their agenda. They should also remember that Mo "all-star" Williams, was only an all-star because of an injury to Bosh.

[Take Your Lumps]

Has any other all-time great had worse teammates than LeBron had in Cleveland?

T-Mac's 3 year run from 2000-2003 is really impressive looking back on it....take a look at these rosters:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2001.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2002.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html

D-Leaguers, has-beens, and injured has-beens. The only real help he ever got was Darrell Armstrong. When they finally traded Armstrong, they won 21 games the following season when McGrady finally kicked a ball into the upper deck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIPLIPG1vVE) and said peace.

[SouBeachTalents]

T-Mac's 3 year run from 2000-2003 is really impressive looking back on it....take a look at these rosters:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2001.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2002.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html

D-Leaguers, has-beens, and injured has-beens. The only real help he ever got was Darrell Armstrong. When they finally traded Armstrong, they won 21 games the following season when McGrady finally kicked a ball into the upper deck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIPLIPG1vVE) and said peace.

I wish I could have put the length criteria in the title as well, as bad as those teammates were T-Mac only had to put up with that for 3 seasons, LeBron had to deal with a mediocre roster for over twice as long, 7 years

[aj1987]

But if their conference sucks, those 66 wins aren't really that remarkable. They beat a bunch of scrubs to get to 66 wins. So how good are they really?:confusedshrug:

Do you also say a boxer is great just because of his undefeated record, without seeing the tomato cans he beat to get that record?
The '09 Cav's had a 77% win rate against the East and an 87% win rate against the West.

I'm guessing the West were total scrubs that year, when they played against the Cav's.

[Take Your Lumps]

I wish I could have put the length criteria in the title as well, as bad as those teammates were T-Mac only had to put up with that for 3 seasons, LeBron had to deal with a mediocre roster for over twice as long, 7 years

Yeah, they T-Mac'd him pretty good but I still say Lebron was a bit better off.

Let's just say his teammates were competent enough that Lebron would have won championships in Cleveland had Doc Rivers been coaching the Cavs.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah, they T-Mac'd him pretty good but I still say Lebron was a bit better off.

Let's just say his teammates were competent enough that Lebron would have won championships in Cleveland had Doc Rivers been coaching the Cavs.

That's an interesting point, nobody's really brought up the coaching factor. I think it's safe to say at this point Mike Brown isn't the best coach lol, anyone think even a Jackson or Pop wins a championship with the 04-10 Cavs roster?

[Goldrush25]

The '09 Cav's had a 77% win rate against the East and an 87% win rate against the West.

I'm guessing the West were total scrubs that year, when they played against the Cav's.

I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say the Cavs were great either. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

It's easier for the Cavs to get up to play a Western conference team once every 4 games or so when they get to play Eastern conference scrubs the other 3 games.

[Droid101]

:facepalm

The Cavalier support was bad his first couple of years, but when he was winning 60+ games he had a great supporting cast.

If you want to ignore this, be my guest. I guess bran needs more help forever and ever.

[SouBeachTalents]

:facepalm

The Cavalier support was bad his first couple of years, but when he was winning 60+ games he had a great supporting cast.

If you want to ignore this, be my guest. I guess bran needs more help forever and ever.

:facepalm You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm sorry, there's absolutely NO way you could consider his Cleveland supporting cast "great", that's a flat out lie and you're just not being objective by saying that

[HurricaneKid]

LeBron was not a very good defensive player at that stage in his career, it was one of his weaknesses. They were a great defensive team because they had a lot of strong defensive players on the team. They were built that way. and they specifically brought in great 3 point shooters to camp the perimeter because it fit LeBron's style of ball. it was no accident.

HOGWASH. His Def RAPM in 08-09 was 2.8.

[TheMarkMadsen]

But if their conference sucks, those 66 wins aren't really that remarkable. They beat a bunch of scrubs to get to 66 wins. So how good are they really?:confusedshrug:

Do you also say a boxer is great just because of his undefeated record, without seeing the tomato cans he beat to get that record?

So you would agree that making the finals in the tomato can east isn't that impressive?

[aj1987]

I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say the Cavs were great either. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

It's easier for the Cavs to get up to play a Western conference team once every 4 games or so when they get to play Eastern conference scrubs the other 3 games.
Once in 4 games? They played 37% of their games against WC teams and 63% against EC teams. That's not "once ever 4 games".

The Cav's were a great team BECAUSE of LeBron. That's a fact. That team was winning 60+ games even in the West. Heck, replace Kobe and LeBron, the Cav's would've won ~45 games and the Lakers, ~70.

[riseagainst]

Once in 4 games? They played 37% of their games against WC teams and 63% against EC teams. That's not "once ever 4 games".

The Cav's were a great team BECAUSE of LeBron. That's a fact. That team was winning 60+ games even in the West. Heck, replace Kobe and LeBron, the Cav's would've won ~45 games and the Lakers, ~70.


:biggums:

[Goldrush25]

So you would agree that making the finals in the tomato can east isn't that impressive?

Yeah.

But it's cyclical. At one point the West was weak. The East will be great again. People overreact in the present.

[aj1987]

:biggums:
Chuckbe vs LeBron? That's a no brainer. Dude even at his peak was never on LeBron's level.

Honestly, a lot of people rank Chuckbe ~10. LeBron at 29 is there. Deal with it dude. I'm pretty sure that by the time LeBron retires, you'll kill yourself. Unless he gets carried AGAIN.

[DaSeba5]

This topc is the very definition of beating a dead horse

[SouBeachTalents]

This topc is the very definition of beating a dead horse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YdN4I4lRPg

[DaSeba5]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YdN4I4lRPg

I'm on your side here. I agree with you that LeBron's teammates sucked, but this has been said a million times. Half the people here are just trolling LeBron anyways. Some of them do it just to piss off the Bran stans.

[Paul George 24]

Once in 4 games? They played 37% of their games against WC teams and 63% against EC teams. That's not "once ever 4 games".

The Cav's were a great team BECAUSE of LeBron. That's a fact. That team was winning 60+ games even in the West. Heck, replace Kobe and LeBron, the Cav's would've won ~45 games and the Lakers, ~70.
lol .....this bran stans :facepalm

[SouBeachTalents]

Bump