Grouping Players - Player discussion thread

[G.O.A.T]

Trying to break this group into two tiers and eliminate any outliers one way or the other...

Any thoughts on any of the players or on the group overall are welcome. I classify this group as Non-Elite Stars/Borderline Alphas.


Gus Williams - G - 2x all-star, 2x all-nba, leading scorer for the '79 Champion Sonics (averaged 20-3-6-2 in 7 prime seasons)

Jack Twyman - F - 6x all-star, 2x all-nba, one of the first players to average 30ppg (averaged 25-8-3 in 5 prime seasons)

Mark Price - PG - 4x all-star, 4x all-nba, Led Cavs to 1992 ECF
(averaged 18-3-8-1 in 6 prime seasons)

Walt Bellamy - C - 4x all-star, 1962 Rookie of the Year averaged 32 and 20.
(averaged 26-16-3 in 6 prime seasons)

Mark Aguirre - SF - 2x all-star, 2x all-nba, leading scorer for '88 Mavs WCF team, started for 1989 Champion Pistons. (averaged 25-6-4-1 in 7 prime seasons)

Larry Foust - C - 8x all-star, 2x all-nba, played in five NBA finals. (averaged 16-12-2 in 7 prime seasons)

Walter Davis - W - 6x all-star, 2x all-nba, ROTY, Averged 20+ppg for '79 and '84 WCF Suns teams. (averaged 21-3-4-1 in 9 prime seasons)

Deron Williams - PG - 3x all-star, 2x all-nba, Led Jazz to 2007 WCF (averaged 18-3-9-1 in 7 prime seasons)

Terry Cummings - F - 2x all-star, 2x all-nba, ROTY, averaged 22-10 for ECF '86 Bucks (averaged 22-9-3-1 in 9 prime seasons)

Harry Gallatin - F/C - 7x all-star, 2x all-nba, 1x RPG, Knicks best frontcourt player on three consecutive finals teams (averaged 13-12-2 in 9 prime seasons)

Lou Hudson - F - 6x all-star, 1x all-nba, averaged 22ppg for '69 WCF Hawks. (averaged 25-5-3 in 7 prime seasons)

Richie Guerin - G - 3x all-star, 3x all-nba, peak averages of 30 ppg 8 rpg and 7 apg. (averaged 22-7-5 in 6 prime seasons)

Bob Love - F - 3x all-star, 2x all-nba, 3x all-def, Leading scorer for Bulls team that averaged 52 wins a year from '71-'75 (averaged 22-7-2 in 6 prime seasons)

Glen Rice - W - 3x all-star, 2x all-nba, 1997 All-Star Game MVP. (averaged 22-5-2-1 in 7 prime seasons)

Elton Brand - P - 2x all-star, 1x all-nba, ROTY, averaged 25-10-3-3 for 47-win Clippers in 2006. (averaged 20-10-3-2 in 8 prime seasons)

Zach Randolph - PF - 2x all-star, 1x all-nba,2004 MIP, Averaged 20-12 for 2011 WCF Grizzlies (averaged 19-10-2-1 in 10 prime seasons)

Gilbert Arenas - G - 3x all-star, 3x all-nba, 2003 MIP, Averged 27 ppg from '05-'07 as Wizards made playoffs every year (averaged 24-4-6-2 in 5 prime seasons)

Dan Roundfield - P - 3x all-star, 1x all-nba, 5x all-def, 5th in 1980 MVP voting. (averaged 17-10-2-2 in 7 prime seasons)

Joe Johnson - W - 6x all-star, 1x all-nba, leading scorer for Hawks team that won a playoff series every year from '09-'11 (averaged 21-4-5-1 in 6 prime seasons)

[L.Kizzle]

I'll start off with the recent era. The guards D. Williams, Arenas and J. Johnson. Arenas had the highest peak and Joe is still an all star. The forwards is easy. Brand over Z Bo. You g play with JJ for longevity. Williams for playoff success with Utah and Arenas for having the best individual seasons.

[L.Kizzle]

The era right before the five I just did. Price and Rice. Price in that first tier. Rice was more consistent over his career though.

[L.Kizzle]

5 players from the 80s. G. Williams, Davis, Aguirre, Cummings and Roundfield. Dan the least talked about. Mark most talked anout. Gus I think was the best. Cummings most underrated. I need to think about this 5. Other than Gus first ... and Davis 2nd tier.

[L.Kizzle]

Some others players who I think fit right in. Wondering where you rank them along with this group. Johnny Green, Jeff Mullins, Norm Van Lier, Charlie Scott, Larry Kenon, Jack Sikma, Larry Nance, Tom Chambers, Mark Jackson, Latrell Sprewell, Jermaine O'Neal, Brandon Roy.

[Pointguard]

Trying to break this group into two tiers and eliminate any outliers one way or the other...

Any thoughts on any of the players or on the group overall are welcome. I classify this group as Non-Elite Stars/Borderline Alphas.

Gus Williams - G - 2x all-star, 2x all-nba, leading scorer for the '79 Champion Sonics (averaged 20-3-6-2 in 7 prime seasons)
Gutsy, step up player. Had one year where he looked like he wanted it more than anybody else. Keeper


Mark Price - PG - 4x all-star, 4x all-nba, Led Cavs to 1992 ECF
(averaged 18-3-8-1 in 6 prime seasons) Was a great jump shooter that kept his team together - one of the purest point guards I ever seen. Could step up when needed for several games a series and be among the best players. Could get up to 26 ppg frequently but rarely above that. Was very consistent, and had great judgement. Yeah, same tier as Gus, but higher than Deron


Mark Aguirre - SF - 2x all-star, 2x all-nba, leading scorer for '88 Mavs WCF team, started for 1989 Champion Pistons. (averaged 25-6-4-1 in 7 prime seasons) Didn't like his game. NA

Walter Davis - W - 6x all-star, 2x all-nba, ROTY, Averged 20+ppg for '79 and '84 WCF Suns teams. (averaged 21-3-4-1 in 9 prime seasons)
Reminds me a lot of Boston's Ray Allen except not as dependable and weaker on defense. But very similar otherwise. Very adequate as the third best player. Yes, same tier as Glenn Rice

Deron Williams - PG - 3x all-star, 2x all-nba, Led Jazz to 2007 WCF (averaged 18-3-9-1 in 7 prime seasons) Definitely not on the level of Price. In the early years he was probably too good to be second tier but is now not good enough to be third tier.

Terry Cummings - F - 2x all-star, 2x all-nba, ROTY, averaged 22-10 for ECF '86 Bucks (averaged 22-9-3-1 in 9 prime seasons). Was tough, versatile, smart. Great second tier player. A bit confusing because he played on an all second tier team with three players sometimes being first tier.


Glen Rice - W - 3x all-star, 2x all-nba, 1997 All-Star Game MVP. (averaged 22-5-2-1 in 7 prime seasons) Another great borderline player. Erratic, had trouble asserting himself, would scare you if you depended on him as the second highest scorer in a series.

Elton Brand - P - 2x all-star, 1x all-nba, ROTY, averaged 25-10-3-3 for 47-win Clippers in 2006. (averaged 20-10-3-2 in 8 prime seasons) Best imitation of a 20/10 guy being invisible. Rarely stood out. But great second tier.

Zach Randolph - PF - 2x all-star, 1x all-nba,2004 MIP, Averaged 20-12 for 2011 WCF Grizzlies (averaged 19-10-2-1 in 10 prime seasons) Closest to an Alpha as possible. But I do have him Brand and Cummings as very similar in impact despite being a bit different. Mcdyess, Buck Williams would be in this group as well.

Gilbert Arenas - G - 3x all-star, 3x all-nba, 2003 MIP, Averged 27 ppg from '05-'07 as Wizards made playoffs every year (averaged 24-4-6-2 in 5 prime seasons) Only because of youth could he not be an Alpha, before he became Alpha?

Joe Johnson - W - 6x all-star, 1x all-nba, leading scorer for Hawks team that won a playoff series every year from '09-'11 (averaged 21-4-5-1 in 6 prime seasons) Overall, close to Arenas but Arenas asserts himself in a bigger way. Arenas might be Alpha. Micheal Redd/Otis Birdsong might be a replacemnt for him???

I deleted players I didn't see.

[L.Kizzle]

The 50s through 70s players. Walt Bellamy might be the most well known and posibly the most overrated. Lou Hudson the most underrated. On the 50s guys I think Gallatin was slightly better than Foust. Love is underrated also. And PG about Brand being the most invisible 20-10 guy I think Shareef Abdur Rahim takes the cake.

[G.O.A.T]

Seems like we are on the same page largely here. Arenas might be better suited for the bottom half of the Elite Talents/Borderline & non- Alphas group just above with Jermaine O'Neal, Chris Mullin, Tom Chambers, Zelmo Beaty, Neil Johnston and George Yardley.

In reference to the other players you guys mentioned...

Two Groups Up (the separation from the group I'm featuring is that these players had at one point, elite skill level.)
Jermaine O'Neal
Chambers


One group above
Nixon
Sikma


One group below
Van Lier
Charlie Scott
Sprewell
Nance
Kenon
Mark Jackson

Two Groups Below (borderline stars)
Jeff Mullins
Michael Redd


The guys in the groups directly above and below are players who typical were cast in more appropriate roles, unlike our featured group which was often asked to do a little more than they were capable.

As for Roy & Birdsong, they're a few groups down in a category I call, Star/Brief prime-peak...with these guys...All of them had a max of six healthy prime seasons.

Ralph Sampson
Larry Johnson
Baron Davis
Vin Baker
Brad Daugherty
Gene Shue
Jerry Stackhouse
Derrick Coleman
Peja Stojakovic
Truck Robinson
Alvin Robertson
Fat Lever
Alex Groza
Andrew Toney
Phil Chenier
Phil Smith
Reggie Lewis
Drazen Petrovic
Michael Ray Richardson
Ralph Beard

[SouBeachTalents]

At worst Brand=Bosh, and you could argue Randolph does as well

[G.O.A.T]

At worst Brand=Bosh, and you could argue Randolph does as well

I have Bosh in the group just above. Very similar players, but Bosh has been in better situations and has a better resume.

How would you rank these ten PF'/C's based on if their careers ended today (for those that have not)?

Baker
Bosh
Brand
Boozer
Randolph
Amare
Kemp
Jermaine O'Neal
Rasheed
Derrick Coleman

[SouBeachTalents]

I have Bosh in the group just above. Very similar players, but Bosh has been in better situations and has a better resume.

How would you rank these ten PF'/C's based on if their careers ended today (for those that have not)?

Baker
Bosh
Brand
Boozer
Randolph
Amare
Kemp
Jermaine O'Neal
Rasheed
Derrick Coleman

Bosh has the best resume out of anyone on that list, but in terms of how good of a player they are, I'd say Brand and Randolph are just about equals to Bosh.

Unlike Brand and Randolph Bosh played in the East, which imo is why he has so many more all-star selections than the other two. He had virtually no competition in the East, While Brand and Randolph had to constantly compete with Duncan, KG, and Dirk who were all in their primes for all-star spots.

If Brand or Randolph had signed with Miami instead of Bosh, and won 2 rings while putting up 15 & 7 in the playoffs as the 3rd wheel, would you move them up into a better group as well?

[G.O.A.T]

If Brand or Randolph had signed with Miami instead of Bosh, and won 2 rings while putting up 15 & 7 in the playoffs as the 3rd wheel, would you move them up into a better group as well?

Yes. Because even though I think they could have down what Bosh did, I don't know it. With Bosh it happened so I know. I agree about the all-star selections thing, being in the east is an advantage. The big thing that I think has allowed Bosh to adapt to being an effective third wheel is his versatility. Playing center on defense and adding the three-point shot are things I'm not sure Randolph could do. While Brand could play center and did, he never had the perimeter shot Bosh does nor the lateral quickness to guard the pick and roll as a center.

At the end of the day you got three guys who aren't taking you past the second round as a #1 option and alpha, it's Bosh's proven ability to excel as #2 and #3 that gives him the slightest of edges on those other guys IMO.

[L.Kizzle]

I have Bosh in the group just above. Very similar players, but Bosh has been in better situations and has a better resume.

How would you rank these ten PF'/C's based on if their careers ended today (for those that have not)?

Baker
Bosh
Brand
Boozer
Randolph
Amare
Kemp
Jermaine O'Neal
Rasheed
Derrick Coleman
Boozer is last. Sheed Bosh Kemp Amare JO they can all be 1 through 5. Baker at 6 spot. Over DC Brand and ZBo.

[SouBeachTalents]

Boozer is last. Sheed Bosh Kemp Amare JO they can all be 1 through 5. Baker at 6 spot. Over DC Brand and ZBo.

How would you rank those guys?

[L.Kizzle]

How would you rank those guys?
Kemp than JO than Amare. Amare's scoring doesn't trump JO and Kemps defense. Bosh and Sheed I'm having trouble with. Sheed had the worse peak numbers out the bunch but is he really the worse? Bosh has the most all star games but is he really the top dog?

[L.Kizzle]

First tier: Walt Bellamy Mark Aguirre Gus Williams Jack Twyman Mark Price Lou Hudson Bob Love Harry Gallatin Deron Williams Glen Rice

[L.Kizzle]

Second tier: Joe Johnson Walter Davis Richie Guerin Larry Foust Zach Randolph Elton Brand Dan Roundfield Terry Cummings