When Tim Duncan takes a pay cut he's lauded for it...

[VengefulAngel]

But if any1 on the Heat take a paycut it's collusion?


Just trying to clear this 'issue'.

Do some of you even know the definition of 'collusion'...

[DMAVS41]

Duncan didn't even take a huge cut. Well, in some sense he did because he could have gotten more, but he got paid his value.

He was overpaid in 11 and 12 at 21 million plus each year...and then has made roughly 10 million the last 2 and this coming year.

With no state tax...that is a fair price for him.

If Lebron and Bosh take a real cut...that will be noteworthy

[DaSeba5]

Quite simply, people hate the Heat and have a biased opinion. It doesn't matter what Miami does, people will bash them for it.

[T_L_P]

James, Wade and Bosh taking paycuts to fill out the bench is fine. Doing it to sign another superstar, one who already plays in their piss poor conference, is not.

You act as if Duncan did it to bring in Pau, or Howard, or Rondo. He did it to keep his squad together.

[VengefulAngel]

Duncan didn't even take a huge cut. Well, in some sense he did because he could have gotten more, but he got paid his value.

He was overpaid in 11 and 12 at 21 million plus each year...and then has made roughly 10 million the last 2 and this coming year.

With no state tax...that is a fair price for him.

If Lebron and Wade take a real cut...that will be noteworthy

'Well, in some sense he did because he could have gotten more'


No need to respond to the rest.

[VengefulAngel]

James, Wade and Bosh taking paycuts to fill out the bench is fine. Doing it to sign another superstar, one who already plays in their piss poor conference, is not.

You act as if Duncan did it to bring in Pau, or Howard, or Rondo. He did it to keep his squad together.

This has to be the dumbest post i've ever read on here which isn't a troll post.

If you're going to spout a bunch of BS at least try to validate it with a cohesive and cogent argument.

[DMAVS41]

'Well, in some sense he did because he could have gotten more'


No need to even write a response.


Not really...this Kobe contract is skewing things. Everyone gets paid their value at that age except Kobe.

Dirk is coming down in pay that is in line with his value.

There is nothing special about Duncan post 2012 taking 10 million a year. That is normal.

The odd thing here is Kobe getting paid 2.5 times his on court value at his age...or Lebron taking significantly less than his on court value in the heart of his prime.

Duncan made 21 million a year in 2012. If Lebron goes down to 15 or so...he'll be making signficiantly less than out of prime Duncan. LOL

If you can't see the difference...then I'm sorry.

[TheMarkMadsen]

A "ask a question where anybody with a different opinion is so stupid I don't even have to respond" thread

[J Shuttlesworth]

James, Wade and Bosh taking paycuts to fill out the bench is fine. Doing it to sign another superstar, one who already plays in their piss poor conference, is not.

You act as if Duncan did it to bring in Pau, or Howard, or Rondo. He did it to keep his squad together.
So you would hate it if the Spurs signed a superstar? Their big 3 are already playing for well below their market value so if they signed LeBron or Melo, it wouldn't be different then what the Heat might do. You're saying you would lose respect for them if the Spurs added a superstar to their roster?

[T_L_P]

This has to be the dumbest post i've ever read on here which isn't a troll post.

If you're going to spout a bunch of BS at least try to validate it with a cohesive and cogent argument.

So Duncan keeping the core together, whilst simultaneously dropping his pay to match his value, is the same as the Heat players taking paycuts to add another superstar?

Wow, you're a ****ing genius. :applause:

[VengefulAngel]

Please, make your response.

Keeping your core the same is far different than adding a star to it. :facepalm

That's not a justification.

Let me throw out a hypothetical so you get it.

If I'm a GM and my player's are taking a paycut, i'm going to fill the rest of my roster with the player's who are going to improve the team. If that's the addition of an extra star or role player's then so be it. What an earth does that have to do with the players who are already playing for my team?...

[VengefulAngel]

A "ask a question where anybody with a different opinion is so stupid I don't even have to respond" thread

No, I normally don't respond to the stupid one's but you're the exception.

[Harison]

Duncan is paid market value in his new contract, it wasnt a paycut like for Heat trio.

38-39 years old earning 10+ mln. is actually very good pay, and he deserves it, but please no crap how he would still be making 20 mln. but "out of his good heart he took a paycut", its just a positive PR spin.

[SCdac]

Quite simply, people hate the Heat and have a biased opinion. It doesn't matter what Miami does, people will bash them for it.

Basically this. Even if all the Heat Big-3 return, after renegotiating their contracts... they'll still somehow be hated for it... (I'm not fully expecting that to happen, but it wouldn't surprise me)

[VengefulAngel]

Not really...this Kobe contract is skewing things. Everyone gets paid their value at that age except Kobe.

Dirk is coming down in pay that is in line with his value.

There is nothing special about Duncan post 2012 taking 10 million a year. That is normal.

The odd thing here is Kobe getting paid 2.5 times his on court value at his age...or Lebron taking significantly less than his on court value in the heart of his prime.

Duncan made 21 million a year in 2012. If Lebron goes down to 15 or so...he'll be making signficiantly less than out of prime Duncan. LOL

If you can't see the difference...then I'm sorry.

This is more of a flaw with the salary cap system, let's not act like there isn't a huge incentive for a player in Lebron's position not to take a paycut.

[SCdac]

btw big men are generally overpaid / paid higher in this league. When you factor that in, definitely helps that Duncan is negotiable. How much is Roy Hibbert making nowadays? :oldlol:

[freshperry]

James, Wade and Bosh taking paycuts to fill out the bench is fine. Doing it to sign another superstar, one who already plays in their piss poor conference, is not.

You act as if Duncan did it to bring in Pau, or Howard, or Rondo. He did it to keep his squad together.

Lets get something straight though...the players dont choose who they sign with the cap space. At the end of the day both duncan and the heat players took pay cuts for championship aspirations. No need to apply a double standard.

[DaSeba5]

The Big 3 knows they can't win another title with their current roster. If they want to win a title again and retool, what's wrong with them taking less money? That's just good management on Miami's part. Any other team would be praised for that. Just because Miami doesn't build through the draft like some other teams doesn't mean what they do is wrong. How many other teams have won titles with a core that's been together for over 10 or more years besides the Spurs? Most teams get another player through trade or FA to improve the team. Even the Spurs retooled their bench before last season because their big 3 took a pay cut.

[VengefulAngel]

Are we really criticising player's for taking pay cuts so that they can continue to:

A) Live in the city they want ( In the case of Wade and Bosh if they opt in, they may have been traded)
B) In actuality it may not be a pay cut, The way in which the salary cap is structured, (focused on annual salaries) player's in the position of Dwyane may earn more in the long term by taking a longer contract as opposed to shorter more lucrative contract in the short run.
C) The city that you live may suit your lifestyle in terms of schooling, entertainment and cost.... links to example A.


Could add more but this will do for now.

[DaSeba5]

Are we really criticising player's for taking pay cuts so that they can continue to:

A) Live in the city they want ( In the case of Wade and Bosh if they opt in, they may have been traded)
B) In actuality it may not be a pay cut, The way in which the salary cap is structured, (focused on annual salaries) player's in the position of Dwyane may earn more in the long term by taking a longer contract as opposed to shorter more lucrative contract in the short run.
C) The city that you live may suit your lifestyle in terms of schooling, entertainment and cost.... links to example A.


Could add more but this will do for now.

People also forget about the player's families. Their kids and wives might be really enjoying the schools they go to, the doctors they go to, the weather, ect.
The Big 3's family is very comfortable in Miami.

ISH posters never seem to account for that in player's decisions.

[VengefulAngel]

People also forget about the player's families. Their kids might be really enjoying the schools they go to, the doctors they go to, the weather, ect.
The Big 3's family is very comfortable in Miami.

ISH posters never seem to account for that in player's decisions.

Yep, I had to make a similar decision. You don't make these decision on a wim. You really have to take into account everything, some of which we may not even be privy to.

Quoted this from the other thread.


Because what and where your job is matters as much as how much you are being paid (particularly when you are already earning a lot), and these guys clearly really like playing together and living in Miami and were thus willing to sacrifice to keep the team together. Not hard to understand at all really.

[DMAVS41]

This is more of a flaw with the salary cap system, let's not act like there isn't a huge incentive for a player in Lebron's position not to take a paycut.

I'm not hating. I don't mind if Lebron signs for the max or plays for 5 million.

I'm just saying there is a huge difference between post 2012 Duncan playing for 10 million.

And, in his prime/peak, Lebron playing for a real cut.

Prime Duncan never played for much of a discount. It's just not that big of a deal to take a 3 year 30 million dollar deal when Duncan did. It's really not a discount in the sense that word is being used.

You applaud Duncan for not being greedy like Kobe and setting the tone for his franchise and putting winning first, but if Lebron takes a big paycut...it's just a way bigger deal than Duncan doing it or Dirk doing it this year.

For good or bad...I don't really care myself.

[TheMarkMadsen]

In 97 Jordan signed the biggest nba contract ever

Leading the way in making a lot of players rich and changing the way players were paid forever.

Lebron is doing the exact opposite, and this will eventually lead to
players having to accept less money, as GMs will eventually have the attitude of "I'm not paying player x more or almost as much as a prime Lebron James" and since Lebron is setting the bar low for $$ future players might have to accepts less money than say they would have 5-6 years ago.

[VengefulAngel]

I'm not hating. I don't mind if Lebron signs for the max or plays for 5 million.

I'm just saying there is a huge difference between post 2012 Duncan playing for 10 million.

And, in his prime/peak, Lebron playing for a real cut.

Prime Duncan never played for much of a discount. It's just not that big of a deal to take a 3 year 30 million dollar deal when Duncan did. It's really not a discount in the sense that word is being used.

You applaud Duncan for not being greedy like Kobe and setting the tone for his franchise and putting winning first, but if Lebron takes a big paycut...it's just a way bigger deal than Duncan doing it or Dirk doing it this year.

For good or bad...I don't really care myself.

Yeah I agree it was a poor example, the situation's are slightly different. Perhaps I should have structured this thread slightly differently.

[VengefulAngel]

In 97 Jordan signed the biggest nba contract ever

Leading the way in making a lot of players rich and changing the way players were paid forever.

Lebron is doing the exact opposite, and this will eventually lead to
players having to accept less money, as a GMs will eventually have the attitude of "I'm not paying player x more or almost as much as a prime Lebron James" and since Lebron is setting the bar low for $$ future players might have to accepts less money than say they would have say 5-6 years ago.

So Lebron has to take into account this when making his decision as to whether to take a paycut?

I'm not sure what your argument is here.

[DMAVS41]

In 97 Jordan signed the biggest nba contract ever

Leading the way in making a lot of players rich and changing the way players were paid forever.

Lebron is doing the exact opposite, and this will eventually lead to
players having to accept less money, as a GMs will eventually have the attitude of "I'm not paying player x more or almost as much as a prime Lebron James" and since Lebron is setting the bar low for $$ future players might have to accepts less money than say they would have say 5-6 years ago.

Yea...it's dangerous for sure.

[DMAVS41]

So Lebron has to take into account this when making his decision as to whether to take a paycut?

I'm not sure what your argument is here.

He doesn't have to, but it's not good for the players if by far the best player in the league at his peak (and one of the 10 or so best players ever) takes a paycut to help his owner/team.

Lebron can/should do what he wants and think of himself first, but it's easy for him because he makes all his money off court anyway. These other guys can't and rely on their salary.

If Lebron signs for 15 million lets say...it empowers owners to tell players/agents that they aren't paying some of these guys as much or more than prime Lebron ****ing James.

[Beastmode88]

Lol tim duncans getting older and considers himself a role player. Lebron is still in his prime and needs "more" help apparently. Best player in the world and history for you guys. #striveforgreatnessbutis2/5

[Purch]

In 97 Jordan signed the biggest nba contract ever

Leading the way in making a lot of players rich and changing the way players were paid forever.

Lebron is doing the exact opposite, and this will eventually lead to
players having to accept less money, as GMs will eventually have the attitude of "I'm not paying player x more or almost as much as a prime Lebron James" and since Lebron is setting the bar low for $$ future players might have to accepts less money than say they would have 5-6 years ago.
Well good, because half the players who get max contracts, don't warrant it with their level of pay. Just look at Joe Johnson.


Gm's need to start paying players according to their actual worth. There's very few players in this league that are actually worth a max contract. Gm's are so afraid to lose players, that they pay them ridiculous money, that their production doesn't warrant.

[DMAVS41]

Well good, because half the players who get max contracts, don't warrant it with their level of pay. Just look at Joe Johnson.


Gm's need to start paying players according to their actual worth. There's very few players in this league that are actually worth a max contract. Gm's are so afraid to lose players, that they pay them ridiculous money, that their production doesn't warrant.

There will always be idiots, but the rules of the CBA promote it. That is what the players want...LOL

So that isn't changing.

[J Shuttlesworth]

f "I'm not paying player x more or almost as much as a prime Lebron James" and since Lebron is setting the bar low for $$ future players might have to accepts less money than say they would have 5-6 years ago.
Any GM who said that to a player is an absolute scumbag when everyone knows LeBron makes most of his money off endorsements

[HurricaneKid]

Lets please stop with the "Tim Duncan SHOULD be making $10M/."

One of the best GMs in the league signed JaVale McGee to a 4/44. The Spurs signed Splitter for 10M this year. C'mon.

Manu, Parker and Duncan combined to make less than Kobe this year.

OF COURSE THEY ARE TAKING DISCOUNTS. In the last 4 years in the west they have been the 1 seed 3 times and the two seed once (when Parker was out an extended period).

I will fight if you say they shouldn't be able to take them though.

[HurricaneKid]

Everyone seems to get that LeBron should be making $40M+. So if he already has to take a discount to $20M why not take another discount of 5M to play where he wants with who he wants?

[DMAVS41]

Lets please stop with the "Tim Duncan SHOULD be making $10M/."

One of the best GMs in the league signed JaVale McGee to a 4/44. The Spurs signed Splitter for 10M this year. C'mon.

Manu, Parker and Duncan combined to make less than Kobe this year.

OF COURSE THEY ARE TAKING DISCOUNTS. In the last 4 years in the west they have been the 1 seed 3 times and the two seed once (when Parker was out an extended period).

I will fight if you say they shouldn't be able to take them though.

You aren't factoring in age.

[DMAVS41]

Everyone seems to get that LeBron should be making $40M+. So if he already has to take a discount to $20M why not take another discount of 5M to play where he wants with who he wants?

He can do whatever he wants.

My only point was that Duncan making 10 million at his age is completely different than if Lebron were to take a real cut at his peak/prime.

I support the player's right to do what is best for them regardless.

[navy]

Since when was Lebron taking a pay cut?

I think he is getting 18-20 million a year again nomatter where he plays.

[HurricaneKid]

You aren't factoring in age.

I'm factoring in production. Tim Duncan produces more than any big in the league making 10M. Period.

[SCdac]

Lebron knows he's not going to get max money even if he deserves it

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8905486/lebron-james-think-paid-value-current-cba

Not to mention each of Lebron, Wade, and Bosh took "pay cuts" just to align with each other. I didn't like how they came together, seemed like collusion, but can't hate on the "sacrifice" they made to join up.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/07/10/lebron-james-dwyane-wade-chris-bosh-each-leave-15-million-on-the-table/

[lilteapot]

So Duncan keeping the core together, whilst simultaneously dropping his pay to match his value, is the same as the Heat players taking paycuts to add another superstar?

Wow, you're a ****ing genius. :applause:
How do you know the heat are even making a run at Melo? They've spoken plenty of times of adding some depth to their bench so that's probably what they're doing.

[DMAVS41]

I'm factoring in production. Tim Duncan produces more than any big in the league making 10M. Period.

Not when he took his new contract.

In the two years leading up to his new contract...

Duncan produced 14/9/3 53% TS (28 minutes) and was going to be 36 the following season.

I think a 3 year 31 million dollar deal is accurate.

Duncan has just played great the last 2 years...definitely better on both ends than he did in 11 and 12.

Obviously Duncan these last 2 years has been worth more than that, but a 30 million dollar deal over 3 years starting at age 36 is just not underpaid given what Duncan produced in 11 and 12 with an expected decline

That decline just never happened.

[dannysc305]

Quite simply, people hate the Heat and have a biased opinion. It doesn't matter what Miami does, people will bash them for it.


People don't hate the Heat. People hate LeBron. And LeBrom just so happened to have played for the Heat (and hopefully will continue to do so)

[longtime lurker]

But if any1 on the Heat take a paycut it's collusion?


Just trying to clear this 'issue'.

Do some of you even know the definition of 'collusion'...

Yes let's compare 38 year old Duncan to prime Lebron and Bosh and an all star level Dwyane Wade. The logic is strong in you Heat fans.

[(e)]

If they have already talked to Lowry and that's the reason Wade and Bosh opt out, that would be collusion.

Don't really care if they take paycuts to try to attract and sign more role players. Good for them. Not like Lebron nor Wade really need the salary money, they make plenty off the court.

[HurricaneKid]

He can do whatever he wants.

My only point was that Duncan making 10 million at his age is completely different than if Lebron were to take a real cut at his peak/prime.

I support the player's right to do what is best for them regardless.

Meh. We basically agree. I just think Duncan could make a LOT more if he were so inclined.

[DMAVS41]

Meh. We basically agree. I just think Duncan could make a LOT more if he were so inclined.

When?

You really think after how he played in 11 and 12 that teams are lining up to max a 36 year old Duncan?

I mean...for sure after last year, but he didn't sign the contract after last year.

Maybe like 13 million a year or something, but a LOT more after 11/12 seasons? Nah...

[T_L_P]

When?

You really think after how he played in 11 and 12 that teams are lining up to max a 36 year old Duncan?

I mean...for sure after last year, but he didn't sign the contract after last year.

Maybe like 13 million a year or something, but a LOT more after 11/12 seasons? Nah...

Yep. There were talks of trading Tim for Oden back in 07.

They weren't giving him a max deal for sentimental purposes.

[Haymaker]

Lol tim duncans getting older and considers himself a role player. Lebron is still in his prime and needs "more" help apparently. Best player in the world and history for you guys. #striveforgreatnessbutis2/5
This

[GimmeThat]

we'll have a serious conversation with players after they've made 200 mil throughout their career first about a pay cut, how about that?

f*** there's inflation and cap expansion.

I just screwed over my own idea.... AGAIN!!!!

[J Shuttlesworth]

This
Hasn't Tim Duncan played under his market value for a long time now though, even in his prime? Or am I wrong about that?

[Haymaker]

Hasn't Tim Duncan played under his market value for a long time now though, even in his prime? Or am I wrong about that?
You're always wrong. 2/5

[J Shuttlesworth]

You're always wrong. 2/5
He only made over 20 mil 3 years of his career

3/17

[GimmeThat]

Hasn't Tim Duncan played under his market value for a long time now though, even in his prime? Or am I wrong about that?

don't really feel like getting out Tim Duncan's MVP voting count statistics

[no pun intended]

Tim Duncan just wanted to be generous with Splitter and give him his $36 million contract.

[bdreason]

Duncan is 38.