Not 1, not 2,.... [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 05:38 PM

Kobe: 5 (5/7)
Lebron: 2 (2/5)
Wilt: 2 (2/6)

Chamberlain and Lebron have been FAR greater in their Finals than Kobe has been in his. It could be argued that no other all-time great played as poorly as Kobe in '04 and '08, and overall, he was simply an awful Finals' performer.

99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of Series .389 FG%

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514 FG%
Last Game of Series .438 FG%

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438 FG%
Finals 22.6 ppg .381 FG%
Last Game of Series .333 FG%

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459 FG%
Finals 25.7 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .318 FG%

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467 FG%
Finals 32.4 ppg .430 FG%
Last Game of Series .435 FG%

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456 FG%
Finals 28.6 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .250 FG%

Other noteables:

97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 05:40 PM

Chamberlain and Lebron have been FAR greater in their Finals than Kobe has been in his. It could be argued that no other all-time great played as poorly as Kobe in '04 and '08, and overall, he was simply an awful Finals' performer.
Kobe 5

Lebron 2

Wilt 2

Ouch

RoundMoundOfReb

06-29-2014, 05:41 PM

There are players in the top 20 who's crowning achievement in their career is making it to the finals and losing... weak insult..

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 05:42 PM

Kobe 5

Lebron 2

Wilt 2

Ouch

Is that the number of Finals in which they played poorly?

Chamberlain only had ONE Finals in their career in which he played relatively poorly, not two.

dubeta

06-29-2014, 05:42 PM

Boiled down:::

Kobe: 5 (5/7)
Lebron: 2 (2/5)
Wilt: 2 (2/6)

Robert Horry 7/7 > Jordan 6/6

dubeta

06-29-2014, 05:44 PM

Is that the number of Finals in which they played poorly?

Chamberlain only had ONE Finals in their career in which he played relatively poorly, not two.

http://www.boom997.com/files/2014/05/laughing.jpg

LMAO

Kobe stans bring up kobe's 40% shooting finals and expect us to applaude

Rodmantheman

06-29-2014, 05:44 PM

reported to all active mods enjoy a ban.

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 05:46 PM

There are players in the top 20 who's crowning achievement in their career is making it to the finals and losing... weak insult..

Yeah..better to have a 2-1 record in three Finals, and EIGHT first round losses, in 18 career seasons....than to go 2-4 in the Finals in 14 seasons, and to lose to the eventual champions 10 times, five in game seven's, and four of those by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. And BTW, to be the best center on the floor in all six, the best player on his own team in five of them, and the best player on the floor in at least four of them.

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 05:47 PM

Is that the number of Finals in which they played poorly?

Chamberlain only had ONE Finals in their career in which he played relatively poorly, not two.
https://theonba.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/kobe-trophy-5.jpg

Wilt TWO

Black and White

06-29-2014, 05:48 PM

reported to all active mods enjoy a ban.

Mods can't ban

navy

06-29-2014, 05:50 PM

http://www.boom997.com/files/2014/05/laughing.jpg

LMAO

Kobe stans bring up kobe's 40% shooting finals and expect us to applaude
It really is funny. :oldlol:

Kobe stans think 15 ppg on 36% shooting is somehow commendable.

That 5/7 doe. :bowdown:

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 05:52 PM

Yeah..better to have a 2-1 record in three Finals, and EIGHT first round losses, in 18 career seasons....than to go 2-4 in the Finals in 14 seasons, and to lose to the eventual champions 10 times, five in game seven's, and four of those by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. And BTW, to be the best center on the floor in all six, the best player on his own team in five of them, and the best player on the floor in at least four of them.
Ah he lost by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points :oldlol:

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 05:55 PM

Ah he lost by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points :oldlol:

Yeah...let's compare Wilt's game seven losses with the majority of Kobe's last playoff games...

97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field

Not only was Kobe simply awful in the vast majority of his LAST playoff games each season, his team's were generally blown out by staggering margins. Some even in the first round.

navy

06-29-2014, 05:57 PM

Yeah...let's compare Wilt's game seven losses with the majority of Kobe's last playoff games...

Not only was Kobe simply awful in the vast majority of his LAST playoff games each season, his team's were generally blown out by staggering margins. Some even in the first round.
5/7 doe. :oldlol:

SamuraiSWISH

06-29-2014, 05:58 PM

That is fun and all but:

2/5 for Kobe
40% alpha
60% sidekick
Ummm as alpha? Kobe is 3 / 4 in the Finals, or 2 / 3. Depending on your viewpoint. Either way, very good.

2001 - W (Co-Alpha)
2008 - L
2009 - W
2010 - W

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 05:58 PM

5/7 doe. :oldlol:

Yep...better to be a laughingstock and win rings, than to be the most dominant player on the floor in losses.

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 05:58 PM

navy

06-29-2014, 05:59 PM

Ummm as alpha? Kobe is 3 / 4 in the Finals, or 2 / 3. Depending on your viewpoint. Either way, very good.

2001 - W (Co-Alpha)
2008 - L
2009 - W
2010 - W
How is Kobe Co Alpha in 2001 but not 2002 or 2004?

Rodmantheman

06-29-2014, 06:00 PM

Mods can't ban

That's dumb this place would be a lot cleaner if they could.

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 06:03 PM

And yet 5 championships while your boy was a confirmed choker. How'd you enjoy all those Finals losses? Bbbbut he grabbed 27 rebounds!

Choker?

Kobe in his playoff MUST WIN games:

8-10 W-L Record
22.0 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.4 apg, and on a .416 FG%

Wilt in his:

Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)

3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds.

Kobe...THE GOAT CHOKER.

SamuraiSWISH

06-29-2014, 06:03 PM

How is Kobe Co Alpha in 2001 but not 2002 or 2004?
His play slightly dipped off in 2002, and 2004. The latter for obvious reasons: rape case, no training camp, etc. But if you want to include those as well? Then he's 4 / 6. Which is still way better than 2 / 5.

navy

06-29-2014, 06:04 PM

And yet 5 championships while your boy was a confirmed choker. How'd you enjoy all those Finals losses? Bbbbut he grabbed 27 rebounds!

Only reason Kobe isnt a choker like Wilt is because his team was carrying him in the Finals.:oldlol:

5/7 > 2/5 > 2/6 :bowdown:

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 06:05 PM

Choker?

Kobe in his playoff MUST WIN games:

8-10 W-L Record
22.0 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.4 apg, and on a .416 FG%

Wilt in his:

Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)

3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds.

Kobe...THE GOAT CHOKER.
You already know what stat actually matters. Sorry brah but your boy was a choker, not my opinion but confirmed by players and reporters that actually saw him play.

navy

06-29-2014, 06:06 PM

His play slightly dipped off in 2002, and 2004. The latter for obvious reasons: rape case, no training camp, etc. But if you want to include those as well? Then he's 4 / 6. Which is still way better than 2 / 5.
Lol, you cant be co alpha and have your teammate drastically outplay in the finals which is the only series that "actually" matters. It makes no sense.

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 06:07 PM

Only reason Kobe isnt a choker like Wilt is because his team was carrying him in the Finals.:oldlol:

5/7 > 2/5 > 2/6 :bowdown:
See Jerry West 1969 Finals

navy

06-29-2014, 06:08 PM

See Jerry West 1969 Finals

Kobe won a ring with 15 ppg on 36% shooting.

Was Wilt worse than that?

SamuraiSWISH

06-29-2014, 06:09 PM

Lol, you cant be co alpha and have your teammate drastically outplay in the finals which is the only series that "actually" matters. It makes no sense.
Which season are you referencing? Are you looking just for an argument? And why is the Finals the only series that matters? Kobe is 2 for 3, or 3 for 4 as alpha. Or if you want to include 2002 / 2004, he's 4 for 6. Either way it's better than 2 for 5.

navy

06-29-2014, 06:10 PM

Which season are you referencing? Are you looking just for an argument? And why is the Finals the only series that matters? Kobe is 2 for 3, or 3 for 4 as alpha. Or if you want to include 2002 / 2004, he's 4 for 6. Either way it's better than 2 for 5.
Because we are comparing finals records.

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 06:11 PM

See Jerry West 1969 Finals

See Wilt and West in the '72 Finals, when LA WON a title (and Wilt won the FMVP.)

SamuraiSWISH

06-29-2014, 06:12 PM

Because we are comparing finals records.
But the Lakers wouldn't be in the Finals if it wasn't for Kobe dropping 29 / 5 / 5 en route to the Finals. Outplaying Shaq in the WCF v.s. the Spurs. He was co-alpha that season.

Using your logic, do we not hold LeBron's atrocious 2011 Finals against him, since his teammate, Wade ... DRAMATICALLY outplayed him? That means he was clear cut sidekick, right? That's conveniet for a LeBron stan such as yourself.

Those 2001 stats are 1st option numbers. Even if you don't want to include that year:

Kobe is 2 / 3
LeBron is 2 / 5

Stay salty.

Mr. Incredible

06-29-2014, 06:12 PM

How many times is the OP going to make the same boring thread over and over again?

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 06:12 PM

Kobe won a ring with 15 ppg on 36% shooting.

Was Wilt worse than that?
1969 NBA Finals

Game 1: 53 points, 3 rebounds, 10 assists, 21-41 FG, 11-13 FT
Game 2: 41 points, 3 rebounds, 8 assists, 12-22 FG, 17-20 FT
Game 3: 24 points, 1 rebounds, 6 assists, 9-24 FG, 6-7 FT
Game 4: 40 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 15-30 FG, 10-10 FT
Game 5: 39 points, 3 rebounds, 9 assists, 16-31 FG, 7-8 FT
Game 6: 26 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 9-19 FG, 8-11 FT
Game 7: 42 points, 13 rebounds, 12 assists, 14-29 FG, 14-18 FT

Series average: 37.9 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 7.4 apg, 49.0 fg%, 83.9 ft%

Wilt in a pivotal game 4 with a chance to take a 3-1 series lead drops 8 points and shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-pt loss.

http://001-jk-files.s3.amazonaws.com/images/boxscores/196904290BOS.jpg

Nash

06-29-2014, 06:14 PM

Ummm as alpha? Kobe is 3 / 4 in the Finals, or 2 / 3. Depending on your viewpoint. Either way, very good.

2001 - W (Co-Alpha)
2008 - L
2009 - W
2010 - W
5 rings.
2 alpha fmvp rings
3 sidekick rings.

navy

06-29-2014, 06:15 PM

But the Lakers wouldn't be in the Finals if it wasn't for Kobe dropping 29 / 5 / 5 en route to the Finals. Outplaying Shaq in the WCF v.s. the Spurs. He was co-alpha that season. Those are 1st option numbers. Even if you don't want to include that year:

Kobe is 2 / 3
LeBron is 2 / 5

Stay salty.

Doesnt matter. The previous series performance doesnt matter for any other player, Im not giving Kobe a crutch for his Finals performances just because he played better in early series. Literally nobody else gets that sort of pass.

Kobe 5/7 in the Finals. Good for him :bowdown:

SamuraiSWISH

06-29-2014, 06:16 PM

5 rings.
2 alpha fmvp rings
3 sidekick rings.
Correct. But as leader of his team he's 2 / 3 in the Finals. LeBron is 2 / 5. It's very basic math, right? What's your point ... Bron needs to pad his Finals efficiency numbers like he does his minimal field goal attempts. Maybe he needs more Eastern Conference All Stars to help carry him? Can they get Melo? Is he good?

DFish24

06-29-2014, 06:18 PM

Bran and Wilt stans butthurt that Kobe has more rings then their idols have combined:roll:

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 06:19 PM

1969 NBA Finals

Game 1: 53 points, 3 rebounds, 10 assists, 21-41 FG, 11-13 FT
Game 2: 41 points, 3 rebounds, 8 assists, 12-22 FG, 17-20 FT
Game 3: 24 points, 1 rebounds, 6 assists, 9-24 FG, 6-7 FT
Game 4: 40 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 15-30 FG, 10-10 FT
Game 5: 39 points, 3 rebounds, 9 assists, 16-31 FG, 7-8 FT
Game 6: 26 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 9-19 FG, 8-11 FT
Game 7: 42 points, 13 rebounds, 12 assists, 14-29 FG, 14-18 FT

Series average: 37.9 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 7.4 apg, 49.0 fg%, 83.9 ft%

Wilt in a pivotal game 4 with a chance to take a 3-1 series lead drops 8 points and shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-pt loss

Wilt also led both teams, and by a huge margin, in rebounding, at 25.0 rpg, and also outplayed Russell in that series, and then badly outplayed Russell in game seven.

Baylor had four games in that series, three of them losses, in which he collectively averaged 11 ppg on a .269 FG%.

BAYLOR was THE reason (along with Van Breda Kolff) why Wilt didn't win a ring in '69.

As a sidenote, the Lakers basically fired VBK right after that game seven loss, and Wilt's new coach in '69-70 decided that it should be WILT who leads the offense. And Wilt responded by leading the league in scoring in the first nine games, at 32.2 (West was at 30.8 ppg BTW), and on a .579 FG%, as well as 20.0 rpg. Unfortunately, he shredded his knee in that ninth game, and was never the same again.

Still, a one-legged Wilt was the best player in the '70 Finals. 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%. Oh, and in the must-win game six, Chamberlain hung a 45 point, 20-27 FG/FGA, 27 rebound game; and in game seven he was the ONLY Laker to play well (21 points, on 10-16 FG/FGA, with 24 rebounds.)

ArbitraryWater

06-29-2014, 06:19 PM

His play slightly dipped off in 2002, and 2004. The latter for obvious reasons: rape case, no training camp, etc. But if you want to include those as well? Then he's 4 / 6. Which is still way better than 2 / 5.

Because that such an effective way of breaking down players, their performance, help and opposition :applause:

Swish you're getting better and better...

lol at "slightly" and lol at co-alpha for 2001 :oldlol:

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 06:22 PM

1969 Finals Game 4 reminds me of 2011 Finals Game 4.

-69 Lakers and 11 Heat have a chance at 3-1 series lead
-West and Wade both have big games (West 40/6/4 on 50%) and Wade 32/6/2 on 65%
-Wilt and Lebron both choke scoring 8 points each (Wilt 2/11 ft) and Lebron 3/11 fg
-Lakers and Heat both lose the game and eventually lose the series

:oldlol:

SamuraiSWISH

06-29-2014, 06:22 PM

lol at "slightly" and lol at co-alpha for 2001 :oldlol:
If you want to discount it, be my guest.

2 for 3 is still better than 2 for 5.

Surely efficiency dorks, like LeBron stans such as yourself would concur.

dubeta

06-29-2014, 06:24 PM

Bran and Wilt stans butthurt that Kobe has more rings then their idols have combined:roll:

Kobe stans butthurt that Kobe is still behind the other two all time even with the ring advantage :roll:

STATUTORY

06-29-2014, 06:24 PM

:roll: revisionist historians really trying to paint wilt as anything but a beta miscast in the body of an alpha? samething with lebron. they are born with the physicality but not he mentality

navy

06-29-2014, 06:24 PM

If you want to discount it, be my guest.

2 for 3 is still better than 2 for 5.

Surely efficiency dorks, like LeBron stans such as yourself would concur.
2 finals mvp wins
3 total finals appearances

is better than

2 finals mvp wins
5 total finals appearances

Using this logic both these players should have lost before the Finals to protect their percentage. :oldlol:

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 06:27 PM

Bran and Wilt stans butthurt that Kobe has more rings then their idols have combined:roll:
Ouch

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 06:32 PM

1969 Finals Game 4 reminds me of 2011 Finals Game 4.

69 Lakers and 11 Heat have a chance at 3-1 series lead
West and Wade both have big games (West 40/6/4 on 50%) and (Wade 32/6/2 on 65%)
Wilt and Lebron choke with both scoring 8 points
Lakers and Heat both lose and eventually lose the series

:oldlol:

One game is not nearly as bad as an entire SERIES.

How about Kobe taking his heavily-favored Lakers down in flames against the Pistons in '04?

Other than game two...

Game One: Kobe with 25 points on 10-27 FG/FGA, and completely ignoring Shaq, who scored 34 on 13-16 shooting.

Game Three: 88-68 loss. Kobe with 11 points on 4-13 FG/FGA.

Game Four: 88-80 loss. Kobe with 20 points on 8-25 shooting, and again, ignoring Shaq, who scored 36 on 16-21 shooting.

Game Five: 100-87 loss (and LA was down 82-59 going into the 4th quarter. Kobe with 24 points on 7-21 FG/FGA.

Kobe in those four losses:

20.0 ppg on a combined 29-86 FG/FGA, or a .337 FG%.

Again...Kobe was THE reason why his heavily-favored Lakers were blown out by the Pistons.

SamuraiSWISH

06-29-2014, 06:36 PM

Using this logic both these players should have lost before the Finals to protect their percentage. :oldlol:
The logic makes perfect sense. Finals is the only series that matters, remember?

If one of these superstars is making it to the Finals, that means their team is good enough to win it, and there isn't some huge gap in talent level with their opposition. Which could be the case in not making it to the Finals. Equal playing field given the circumstances. Coming up short on the big stage counts among all-time greats. Their record there indicates with adequate help to get there what they were able to do when it comes to winning time.

No excuses. 2 for 5. LeBron picked his 2 for 4 team there in Miami. He thought it was "going to be easy" with those guys. Am I right? Not 5, not 6, not 7? Maybe if they get Melo, and just roll out the eastern conference All Star Team.

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 06:41 PM

The logic makes perfect sense. Finals is the only series that matters, remember?

If one of these superstars is making it to the Finals, that means their team is good enough to win it, and there isn't some huge gap in talent level with their opposition. Which could be the case in not making it to the Finals. Equal playing field given the circumstances. Coming up short on the big stage counts among all-time greats. Their record there indicates with adequate help to get there what they were able to do when it comes to winning time.

No excuses. 2 for 5. LeBron picked his 2 for 4 team there in Miami. He thought it was "going to be easy" with those guys. Am I right? Not 5, not 6, not 7? Maybe if they get Melo, and just roll out the eastern conference All Star Team.

Wilt made it to the Finals in '64 with a roster that couldn't beat a group of rookies in a pre-season scrimmage without him (yes, actual truth.) They were outgunned in HOFers by an 8-3 margin (and one of those was a rookie playing part-time and out of position), and despite that, his team managed to beat the heavily-favored Celtics in one game, and lost the last two games of that series in the final seconds. Oh, and Chamberlain did was outscore Russell, per game, 29.2 to 11.2 ppg; outrebound Russell, per game, 27.8 to 25.2 rpg; and outshoot Russell from the field, .517 to .386.

Are you foolish enough to say that Russell was the "winner" over Wilt in that series, because it was a "level-playing field"?

Hands of Iron

06-29-2014, 06:42 PM

One game is not nearly as bad as an entire SERIES.

How about Kobe taking his heavily-favored Lakers down in flames against the Pistons in '04?

Other than game two...

Game One: Kobe with 25 points on 10-27 FG/FGA, and completely ignoring Shaq, who scored 34 on 13-16 shooting.

Game Three: 88-68 loss. Kobe with 11 points on 4-13 FG/FGA.

Game Four: 88-80 loss. Kobe with 20 points on 8-25 shooting, and again, ignoring Shaq, who scored 36 on 16-21 shooting.

Game Five: 100-87 loss (and LA was down 82-59 going into the 4th quarter. Kobe with 24 points on 7-21 FG/FGA.

Kobe in those four losses:

20.0 ppg on a combined 29-86 FG/FGA, or a .337 FG%.

Again...Kobe was THE reason why his heavily-favored Lakers were blown out by the Pistons.

Shaq would've hung the same numbers on that dreaded Pistons defense that he did on Indiana in 2000 if he was going against them at his peak and getting the same number of touches without Kobe playing hero ball. They would've been bent over the exact same way. Check out Duncan against them a year later.

navy

06-29-2014, 06:43 PM

The logic makes perfect sense. Finals is the only series that matters, remember?

If one of these superstars is making it to the Finals, that means their team is good enough to win it, and there isn't some huge gap in talent level with their opposition. Which could be the case in not making it to the Finals. Equal playing field given the circumstances. Coming up short on the big stage counts among all-time greats. Their record there indicates with adequate help to get there what they were able to do when it comes to winning time.

No excuses. 2 for 5. LeBron picked his 2 for 4 team there in Miami. He thought it was "going to be easy" with those guys. Am I right? Not 5, not 6, not 7? Maybe if they get Melo, and just roll out the eastern conference All Star Team.

Exactly only the Finals matter. Kobe 5/7 . Lebron 2/5
None of that WCF shit. :rolleyes:

"If one of these superstars is making it to the Finals, that means their team is good enough to win it"

This is a false statement. Dont try to pass off your opinion as fact.

No excuses 2/5. Gotta keep playing Bran. :confusedshrug:

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 06:43 PM

One game is not nearly as bad as an entire SERIES.

How about Kobe taking his heavily-favored Lakers down in flames against the Pistons in '04?

Other than game two...

Game One: Kobe with 25 points on 10-27 FG/FGA, and completely ignoring Shaq, who scored 34 on 13-16 shooting.

Game Three: 88-68 loss. Kobe with 11 points on 4-13 FG/FGA.

Game Four: 88-80 loss. Kobe with 20 points on 8-25 shooting, and again, ignoring Shaq, who scored 36 on 16-21 shooting.

Game Five: 100-87 loss (and LA was down 82-59 going into the 4th quarter. Kobe with 24 points on 7-21 FG/FGA.

Kobe in those four losses:

20.0 ppg on a combined 29-86 FG/FGA, or a .337 FG%.

Again...Kobe was THE reason why his heavily-favored Lakers were blown out by the Pistons.
Wilt for the series averaged 11.7 ppg and shot .375 ft%
West for the series averaged 37.9 ppg and shot .839 ft%

Carried and still lost. He wasn't a good enough sidekick that year and neither was he the next year.

Kobe's 04 finals is not ignored, its part of his 5/7 record :confusedshrug:

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 06:48 PM

Shaq would've hung the same numbers on that dreaded Pistons defense that he did on Indiana in 2000 if he was going against them at his peak and getting the same number of touches without Kobe playing hero ball. They would've been bent over the exact same way. Check out Duncan against them a year later.
Duncan averaged 20.6 ppg on .419 fg% vs the Pistons the same year...

And this is BS, Kobe only took 13 shots in game 4, what did Shaq do that game?

Pistons shut the Lakers team down. Nobody on the Lakers besides Shaq and Kobe averaged 7 ppg, the 3rd leading scorer was Fisher with 6.4 ppg. Blame Kobe all you want for his inefficiency but even if he shot the ball well the Lakers would not have won with that supporting cast.

edrick

06-29-2014, 06:54 PM

co-alpha? :roll:

navy

06-29-2014, 06:56 PM

Duncan averaged 20.6 ppg on .419 fg% vs the Pistons the same year...

And this is BS, Kobe only took 13 shots in game 4, what did Shaq do that game?

Pistons shut the Lakers team down. Nobody on the Lakers besides Shaq and Kobe averaged 7 ppg, the 3rd leading scorer was Fisher with 6.4 ppg. Blame Kobe all you want for his inefficiency but even if he shot the ball well the Lakers would not have won with that supporting cast.

This nikka out here trying to put context. :biggums:

:roll:

Bruh, it's just a small blip. Kobe still 5/7. :bowdown:

Hands of Iron

06-29-2014, 06:58 PM

Duncan averaged 20.6 ppg on .419 fg% vs the Pistons the same year...

And this is BS, Kobe only took 13 shots in game 4, what did Shaq do that game?

In Game Four? 36 Points, 21 Rebounds.

:confusedshrug:

I think you mean a different game. Anyway, Shaq hardly even had his head into the ****ing game himself, wasn't nearly putting in the same amount of effort on the boards or defense by that time and was breaking down physically. That's what's funny -- He hung 27 ppg on 63% against the 'greatest defense of all-time'... Casually.

This 2001 thing with the Spurs gets vastly overblown as well, bro. Kobe was ELITE absolutely but Shaq was still the primary focus of the defense, Shaq was the one going against the Twin Towers, Shaq still put up 27/13 on high efficiency. He wasn't hurting a damn thing.

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 06:59 PM

This nikka out here trying to put context. :biggums:

:roll:

Bruh, it's just a small blip. Kobe still 5/7. :bowdown:
Exactly 5/7. 04 and 08 count, all of them count.

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 07:03 PM

In Game Four? 36 Points, 21 Rebounds.

:confusedshrug:

I think you mean a different game. Anyway, Shaq hardly even had his head into the ****ing game himself, wasn't nearly putting in the same amount of effort on the boards or defense by that time and was breaking down physically. That's what's funny -- He hung 27 ppg on 63% against the 'greatest defense of all-time'... Casually.

This 2001 thing with the Spurs gets vastly overblown as well, bro. Kobe was ELITE absolutely but Shaq was still the primary focus of the defense, Shaq was the one going against the Twin Towers, Shaq still put up 27/13 on high efficiency. He wasn't hurting a damn thing.
Meant Game 3

Lakers lost by 20, Kobe took only 13 shots (11/3/5 on 4-13 fg/3-3 ft). Shaq had 14/8/1 on 7-14 fg/0-2 ft.

Hands of Iron

06-29-2014, 07:03 PM

Lakers 3-Peat

2000 Playoffs:
Kobe: 21/5/4 44% FG, 52% TS
Shaq: 31/15/3 57% FG, 56% TS

2000 Finals:
Kobe: 16/5/4 37% FG, 41% TS
Shaq: 38/17/3 61% FG, 58% TS

2001 Playoffs:
Kobe: 29/7/6 47% FG, 55% TS
Shaq: 30/15/3 56% FG, 56% TS

2001 Finals:
Kobe: 25/8/6 42% FG, 50% TS
Shaq: 33/16/5 57% FG, 58% TS

2002 Playoffs:
Kobe: 27/6/5 43% FG, 51% TS
Shaq: 29/13/3 53% FG, 57% TS

2002 Finals:
Kobe: 27/6/5 51% FG, 62% TS
Shaq: 36/12/3 60% FG, 64% TS

Elimination Games:

'00 WCQF, Game 5:
Kobe: 17 pts, 2 reb, 6 ast, 44% FG, 50% TS
Shaq: 32 pts, 18 reb, 4 ast, 63% FG, 59% TS

'00 WCF, Game 7:
Kobe: 25 pts, 11 reb, 7 ast, 47% FG, 52% TS
Shaq: 18 pts, 9 reb, 5 ast, 56% FG, 63% TS

'02 WCF, Game 6:
Kobe: 31 pts, 11 reb, 5 ast, 50% FG, 62% TS
Shaq: 41 pts, 17 reb, 2 blk, 56% FG, 63% TS

'02 WCF, Game 7:
Kobe: 30 pts, 10 reb, 7 ast, 39% FG, 49% TS
Shaq: 35 pts, 13 reb, 4 blk, 48% FG, 55% TS

Shaq also shot 73% from the FT in these elimination games if I'm not mistaken.

ArbitraryWater

06-29-2014, 07:05 PM

Meant Game 4

Lakers lost by 20, Kobe took only 13 shots (11/3/5 on 4-13 fg/3-3 ft). Shaq had 14/8/1 on 7-14 fg/0-2 ft.

Nope, Shaq had 36/20...

You're talking about game 3

Ne 1

06-29-2014, 07:07 PM

Again...Kobe was THE reason why his heavily-favored Lakers were blown out by the Pistons.
Yeah, it was all Kobe's fault. The rest of the team outside of Shaq shooting 33%, Malone injured, Shaq's lazy play defensively, lazy play on the boards and not establishing position in the paint, and Payton's atrocious play on both ends of the floor had nothing to do with it. It's all Kobe's fault. That's why the biggest blow-out loss came in the game where he only had 13 shots, right?

What a moron. :oldlol:

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 07:10 PM

Nope, Shaq had 36/20...

You're talking about game 3
Yup. Kobe was bad in that important game and for the series. That counts as a loss on his record and I don't ignore it. But to act like if Kobe passed the ball more then Shaq would've went 00-02 Finals Shaq on them is not true.

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 07:14 PM

Yeah, it was all Kobe's fault. The rest of the team outside of Shaq shooting 33%, Malone injured, Shaq's lazy play defensively, lazy play on the boards and not establishing position in the paint, and Payton's atrocious play on both ends of the floor had nothing to do with it. It's all Kobe's fault. That's why the biggest blow-out loss came in the game where he only had 13 shots, right?

What a moron. :oldlol:

In game one, Kobe went 10-27...Shaq 13-16...in a 12 point loss.

In game four, Kobe went 8-25...Shaq 16-21...in an 8 point loss.

Had Kobe relinquished 10 shots to Shaq in each, the Lakers likely win both, and certainly game four.

Yes, it WAS Kobe's fault. BTW, Kobe's teammates just stood around watching him shot-jack the entire series. They had no opportunities to shoot, nor did they expect any. He was clearly on a mission to win, or lose, that series all by himself. And that is exactly what transpired.

qrich

06-29-2014, 07:15 PM

6/24?

Ne 1

06-29-2014, 07:15 PM

Yup. Kobe was bad in that important game and for the series. That counts as a loss on his record and I don't ignore it. But to act like if Kobe passed the ball more then Shaq would've went 00-02 Finals Shaq on them is not true.
The easy narrative of the Lakers losing that series that people like to latch onto (particularly Kobe detractors) is that Kobe was gunning for Finals MVP because he was tired of being viewed as Shaq's second fiddle and then after that he forced Shaq out of L.A., but that's pretty far from the actual truth on both accounts. It's not a coincidence that the biggest blow-out for Detroit that series came in the game where Bryant only took 13 shots. They literally had nobody who could create anything on the perimeter and nobody who could shoot. At times they were running a lineup of Kobe, Kareem Rush, Slava Medvedenko, Devean George, and Derek Fisher. With Malone, Grant, and Rick Fox injured, they no longer had Robert Horry, and as I already pointed out Payton was totally ineffective, this may be a worse team top to bottom than Kobe's 2006 squad outside of Shaq. But its more fun to imagine Kobe dribbling down the court with devil horns sticking out of his head, cackling like a mad scientist as he jacks up 30 foot fade-aways over 5 defenders while Shaq is under the rim wide open, on both knees, hands clasped together begging for the ball. We actually tried to force-feed Shaq plenty. It was almost as good for a turnover as it was a field goal. The game Kobe had the least shot attempts, 13, Shaq still only shot 14 times. If Bryant's chucking was the only thing preventing Shaq from getting the rock and putting it in the hole, you'd think he'd have shot 25+ times with Kobe easing up, but that's not how basketball works.

It is how good the Pistons defense was though. "You want to get the ball inside? Good luck." They weren't holding teams to <80ppg because they didn't know how to handle post players. Actually getting the basketball in the paint was a bitch, be you perimeter player or bigman.

The guards outside of Kobe shot 30% for the series. The small forwards (Walton and George) shot 40%. The team as a whole shot 33% outside of Shaq. Nobody was making shots from the perimeter when Kobe fed them, and the Pistons made it difficult to feed Shaq inside the way they would have liked to. Kobe is Kobe, and he thinks he can make anything no matter what. Do the math.

Megabox!

06-29-2014, 07:16 PM

co-alpha? :roll:
:lol yea his posts gave me a good laugh

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 07:17 PM

Hands of Iron

06-29-2014, 07:17 PM

Yup. Kobe was bad in that important game and for the series. That counts as a loss on his record and I don't ignore it. But to act like if Kobe passed the ball more then Shaq would've went 00-02 Finals Shaq on them is not true.

No suh, not what I was saying. I said Peak Shaq would've went 00-02 Finals Shaq on them no different than he did Indiana if he got the same touches. I'm just talking about Shaq, period.

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 07:18 PM

Good and I'll take it. 5 titles and a 5/7 record for his career overall is better than 2 titles and 2/6 record like your boy.

Again, Wilt played FAR better in his six finals, than Kobe did in his seven.

Kobe was carried in three, played average, at best in two, and was downright awful in his two losses.

ArbitraryWater

06-29-2014, 07:20 PM

Yeah, it was all Kobe's fault. The rest of the team outside of Shaq shooting 33%, Malone injured, Shaq's lazy play defensively, lazy play on the boards and not establishing position in the paint, and Payton's atrocious play on both ends of the floor had nothing to do with it. It's all Kobe's fault. That's why the biggest blow-out loss came in the game where he only had 13 shots, right?

What a moron. :oldlol:

Lets blame ANYBODY BUT KOBE..

If Kobe did play bad, WHO CARES DOE?!?!?! His teammates did too!

Not all his fault!

:rolleyes:

This is a top 15 great, we can criticize him for his bad play, which is why they lost... As we can do with other players.. don't get all sensitive passive defensive.

ArbitraryWater

06-29-2014, 07:21 PM

Again, Wilt played FAR better in his six finals, than Kobe did in his seven.

Kobe was carried in three, played average, at best in two, and was downright awful in his two losses.

2004 easily his worst, but 2000 would probably still be worse than 2008..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTgObyJCQAA_Cdz.jpg

Ne 1

06-29-2014, 07:26 PM

In game one, Kobe went 10-27...Shaq 13-16...in a 12 point loss.

In game four, Kobe went 8-25...Shaq 16-21...in an 8 point loss.

Had Kobe relinquished 10 shots to Shaq in each, the Lakers likely win both, and certainly game four.

Yes, it WAS Kobe's fault. BTW, Kobe's teammates just stood around watching him shot-jack the entire series. They had no opportunities to shoot, nor did they expect any. He was clearly on a mission to win, or lose, that series all by himself. And that is exactly what transpired.
Seriously, why do people rewrite history when it comes to that 2004 Finals by using box scores? I mean, nobody would claim Kobe had a good, or even respectable series for a player of his caliber. His shot selection in particular was terrible (but at least he played good defense in that series and won game 2 with a clutch bucket). But it's not only that, Tex Winter criticized Shaq's play in that series for being lazy on defense and on the glass, and for not establishing position in the paint.... Shaq wasn't getting in position to get the ball. (when he did he was able to score though). But even if you look at the game where Kobe wasn't looking to score, Shaq still couldn't get off. Karl Malone was hurt. Gary Payton was a bad fit for the team and he even criticized the triangle offense that year. And the Lakers really had no one else to take those shots so of course it was left to Kobe to gun, it wasn't all him just forcing up bad shots.

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 07:31 PM

Seriously, why do people rewrite history when it comes to that 2004 Finals by using box scores? I mean, nobody would claim Kobe had a good, or even respectable series for a player of his caliber. His shot selection in particular was terrible (but at least he played good defense in that series and won game 2 with a clutch bucket). But it's not only that, Tex Winter criticized Shaq's play in that series for being lazy on defense and on the glass, and for not establishing position in the paint.... Shaq wasn't getting in position to get the ball. (when he did he was able to score though). But even if you look at the game where Kobe wasn't looking to score, Shaq still couldn't get off. Karl Malone was hurt. Gary Payton was a bad fit for the team and he even criticized the triangle offense that year. And the Lakers really had no one else to take those shots so of course it was left to Kobe to gun, it wasn't all him just forcing up bad shots.

Did you WATCH that series???? Dr. Jack Ramsey, the television analyst, was screaming at Kobe during the game to PASS the ball into SHAQ. Shaq was scoring at will, and yet Kobe continued to throw up prayer-after-prayer. In fact, he made the comment that Shaq should have gone for 60 in one of those games.

And if I am not mistaken, Phil was getting pretty upset with Kobe's shot-jacking in that series, as well. Personally, he should have benched him. They would have been no worse off, and who knows, maybe if the other players actually knew that they might get a shot, hell, they might have shot better, too. If nothing else, they should have fed Shaq the ball 40 times a game.

Hands of Iron

06-29-2014, 07:31 PM

A lot gets made of the Portland series in 2000 as well and they contained Shaq about as well as you can but it's easy to forget that despite all of that immense attention, Kobe was held to under 20 points four times in that series. Up 3-1, Shaq dropped 31/21 on them and they still lost. Kobe...

Forget it.

qrich

06-29-2014, 07:31 PM

2004 easily his worst, but 2000 would probably still be worse than 2008..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTgObyJCQAA_Cdz.jpg

That...can't...be..right

navy

06-29-2014, 07:32 PM

Seriously, why do people rewrite history when it comes to that 2004 Finals by using box scores? I mean, nobody would claim Kobe had a good, or even respectable series for a player of his caliber. His shot selection in particular was terrible (but at least he played good defense in that series and won game 2 with a clutch bucket). But it's not only that, Tex Winter criticized Shaq's play in that series for being lazy on defense and on the glass, and for not establishing position in the paint.... Shaq wasn't getting in position to get the ball. (when he did he was able to score though). But even if you look at the game where Kobe wasn't looking to score, Shaq still couldn't get off. Karl Malone was hurt. Gary Payton was a bad fit for the team and he even criticized the triangle offense that year. And the Lakers really had no one else to take those shots so of course it was left to Kobe to gun, it wasn't all him just forcing up bad shots.

All this is nice, but here's the problem. You talk about all these other factors within the series, but you (well I dont know about you especially) then dismiss it for other players like Wilt Chamberlain. The hypocrisy is outstanding. Not every win/loss or team is created equal.

Trying to add context to Kobe's chucking is hardly fair if you are gonna dismiss it for everyone else. :confusedshrug:

Ne 1

06-29-2014, 07:33 PM

Lets blame ANYBODY BUT KOBE..

If Kobe did play bad, WHO CARES DOE?!?!?! His teammates did too!

Not all his fault!

:rolleyes:

This is a top 15 great, we can criticize him for his bad play, which is why they lost... As we can do with other players.. don't get all sensitive passive defensive.
You completely missed the point. The Lakers own coaches came out saying how Shaq wasn't working for position and wasn't working to get the ball. Now you can make the judgment on if that was just Shaq pouting because he wasn't getting the ball enough or you can credit Detroit's defense. Shaq had some great offensive games, but he was slow defensively coming off the pick and Rip and Chauncy got to the rim at will. Payton averaged 4 ppg on 32% shooting in that series and looked slow defensively as Billups torched him for 21 ppg on 51% shooting and 47% on 3s. Malone was limping around that whole series. He couldn't contribute due to his injury and was a non-factor. Neither played at any notable level that series. To completely blame Kobe for the Lakers losing is absolutely ridiculous considering the level they were actually at during that series. Malone due to being a 41 year old playing through an injury, and Payton was just embarrassingly incompetent. Don't remake your own history by looking up some box scores. Anyone can do that.

navy

06-29-2014, 07:33 PM

That...can't...be..right
15.6 points on 36% shooting in the Finals. 5 rings though. :oldlol:

Ne 1

06-29-2014, 07:35 PM

The easy narrative of the Lakers losing that series that people like to latch onto (particularly Kobe detractors) is that Kobe was gunning for Finals MVP because he was tired of being viewed as Shaq's second fiddle and then after that he forced Shaq out of L.A., but that's pretty far from the actual truth on both accounts. It's not a coincidence that the biggest blow-out for Detroit that series came in the game where Bryant only took 13 shots. They literally had nobody who could create anything on the perimeter and nobody who could shoot. At times they were running a lineup of Kobe, Kareem Rush, Slava Medvedenko, Devean George, and Derek Fisher. With Malone, Grant, and Rick Fox injured, they no longer had Robert Horry, and as I already pointed out Payton was totally ineffective, this may be a worse team top to bottom than Kobe's 2006 squad outside of Shaq. But its more fun to imagine Kobe dribbling down the court with devil horns sticking out of his head, cackling like a mad scientist as he jacks up 30 foot fade-aways over 5 defenders while Shaq is under the rim wide open, on both knees, hands clasped together begging for the ball. We actually tried to force-feed Shaq plenty. It was almost as good for a turnover as it was a field goal. The game Kobe had the least shot attempts, 13, Shaq still only shot 14 times. If Bryant's chucking was the only thing preventing Shaq from getting the rock and putting it in the hole, you'd think he'd have shot 25+ times with Kobe easing up, but that's not how basketball works.

It is how good the Pistons defense was though. "You want to get the ball inside? Good luck." They weren't holding teams to <80ppg because they didn't know how to handle post players. Actually getting the basketball in the paint was a bitch, be you perimeter player or bigman.

The guards outside of Kobe shot 30% for the series. The small forwards (Walton and George) shot 40%. The team as a whole shot 33% outside of Shaq. Nobody was making shots from the perimeter when Kobe fed them, and the Pistons made it difficult to feed Shaq inside the way they would have liked to. Kobe is Kobe, and he thinks he can make anything no matter what. Do the math.
Bump.

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 07:36 PM

Again, Wilt played FAR better in his six finals, than Kobe did in his seven.

Kobe was carried in three, played average, at best in two, and was downright awful in his two losses.
BS

1964 Finals
Wilt 29.2 ppg, .415 ft%
Meschery 16.4 ppg, .774 ft%
Thurmond 11.2 ppg, .788 ft%

1967 Finals
Greer 26.0 ppg, .836 ft%
Walker 23.3 ppg, .774 ft%
Jones 20.2 ppg, .750 ft%
Cunningham 19.7 ppg, .537 ft%
Wilt 17.7 ppg, .306 ft%

1969 Finals
West 37.9 ppg, .839 ft%
Baylor 18.0 ppg, .625 ft%
Egan 15.1 ppg , .778 ft%
Wilt 11.7 ppg, .375 ft%

1970 Finals
West 31.3 ppg, .833 ft%
Wilt 23.3 ppg, .343 ft%
Baylor 17.9 ppg, .778 ft%

1972 Finals
Goodrich 25.6 ppg, .878 ft%
West 19.8 ppg, .793 ft%
Wilt 19.4 ppg, .543 ft%

1973 Finals
Goodrich 21.8 ppg, .758 ft%
West 21.4 ppg, .676 ft%
Mcmillian 19.6 ppg, .640 ft%
Wilt 11.6 ppg, .368 ft%

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 07:37 PM

Bump.

Bump all you want. Kobe was simply AWFUL in that series. And he just flat choked in the four losses.

His 2008 Finals was equally as bad.

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 07:42 PM

BS

1964 Finals
Wilt 29.2 ppg, .415 ft%
Meschery 16.4 ppg, .774 ft%
Thurmond 11.2 ppg, .788 ft%

1967 Finals
Greer 26.0 ppg, .836 ft%
Walker 23.3 ppg, .774 ft%
Jones 20.2 ppg, .750 ft%
Cunningham 19.7 ppg, .537 ft%
Wilt 17.7 ppg, .306 ft%

1969 Finals
West 37.9 ppg, .839 ft%
Baylor 18.0 ppg, .625 ft%
Egan 15.1 ppg , .778 ft%
Wilt 11.7 ppg, .375 ft%

1970 Finals
West 31.3 ppg, .833 ft%
Wilt 23.3 ppg, .343 ft%
Baylor 17.9 ppg, .778 ft%

1972 Finals
Goodrich 25.6 ppg, .878 ft%
West 19.8 ppg, .793 ft%
Wilt 19.4 ppg, .543 ft%

1973 Finals
Goodrich 21.8 ppg, .758 ft%
West 21.4 ppg, .676 ft%
Mcmillian 19.6 ppg, .640 ft%
Wilt 11.6 ppg, .368 ft%

Oh wait...you forgot FOUR important stats. One, where are the FG%'s? Two, how many times was Wilt OUTSCORED from the FT line by his opposing centers in those series? Three, how about posting Wilt's OPPOSING centers scoring and FG% numbers. And finally, how many times was Wilt OUTREBOUNDED in those six series.

One...he was the leading FG% shooter in EVERY series. Two, he OUTSCORED his opposing centers from the line in EVERY one of those series. Three, he BADLY OUTSHOT his OPPOSING CENTERS from the field in those six series (by a collective .559 to .439 margin.) And he just SLAUGHTERED his OPPOSING CENTERS on the glass in EVERY series.

Next...

Hands of Iron

06-29-2014, 07:42 PM

Bump.

I'm OK with Kobe, really.

Just stop rewriting history by detracting Shaq and insinuating they were not his teams. You wouldn't even need the statistical proof if you were watching it live. It seems people hang their entire argument on one particular playoff series out of 12 and one game in one particular series that should've never went the distance had Kobe stepped up earlier. Just cut that shit. That's all.

I'm not even talking directly to you either, but agenda driven stans in general. We are talking about a GOAT-level player at his peak here for ****s sake.

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 07:43 PM

15.6 points on 36% shooting in the Finals. 5 rings though. :oldlol:
Game 2: 9 minutes, 2/1/4, 1-3 fg

Left game with ankle injury :confusedshrug:

2000 playoffs
21.1 / 4.5 / 4.4 / 1.5 / 1.5 / .442 / .344 / .754

Compare that with Kareem's last 2 rings, Shaq's last ring, and Duncan's last ring.

LAZERUSS

06-29-2014, 07:44 PM

Game 2: 9 minutes, 2/1/4, 1-3 fg

Left game with ankle injury :confusedshrug:

Arguably his BEST game of the series, too.

ArbitraryWater

06-29-2014, 07:44 PM

That...can't...be..right

It sadly is... got horribly outplayed by a no name role player

ArbitraryWater

06-29-2014, 07:45 PM

Game 2: 9 minutes, 2/1/4, 1-3 fg

Left game with ankle injury :confusedshrug:

Ankle seemed fine in game 4

navy

06-29-2014, 07:50 PM

Game 2: 9 minutes, 2/1/4, 1-3 fg

Left game with ankle injury :confusedshrug:

2000 playoffs
21.1 / 4.5 / 4.4 / 1.5 / 1.5 / .442 / .344 / .754

Compare that with Kareem's last 2 rings, Shaq's last ring, and Duncan's last ring.
And still thought it wise to chuck up shots? 33% shooting his last three games. 25 shot attempts per game in those three. :oldlol:

Bruh....I only deal with Finals series. 5/7.

Ne 1

06-29-2014, 07:50 PM

Bump all you want. Kobe was simply AWFUL in that series. And he just flat choked in the four losses.

His 2008 Finals was equally as bad.
Yeah, 2004 was an awful series for a player of his caliber, I don't deny this. But if you play enough of them, it's bound to happen and let's not forget that Pistons team is perhaps the greatest defensive team ever, they deserve some credit here. 2008 is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. I never held this series against him. First of all, where was his help? There was no Laker who played well enough to prevent a legendary Celtic defense from swarming him. Gasol reverted to Gasoft in that series and was getting bullied in both ends by KG, making Kobe's poor shooting series perfectly understandable. Look at what LeBron did vs that Celtic defense, he shot under 36% and averaged over 5 turnovers. The Celtics loaded up on Kobe because he wasn't getting enough help. So yes, he shot the ball poorly, but with one of the greatest defensive teams of all time focusing almost entirely on one player, it's not a big deal. Boston also had a much more talented team with the Lakers missing Bynum and Ariza due to injury.

The-Legend-24

06-29-2014, 07:52 PM

Boiled down:::

Kobe: 5 (5/7)
Lebron: 2 (2/5)
Wilt: 2 (2/6)
Ether. :oldlol:

Ne 1

06-29-2014, 07:55 PM

Ankle seemed fine in game 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0T08-gJVcc&sns=em

BlazerRed

06-29-2014, 07:55 PM

5 starred

Deuce Bigalow

06-29-2014, 08:02 PM

And still thought it wise to chuck up shots? 33% shooting his last three games. 25 shot attempts per game in those three. :oldlol:

Bruh....I only deal with Finals series. 5/7.
Only fair to look at his stats which he played full games

00 Finals minus Game 2
19.0 / 5.5 / 4.3 / 1.3 / 1.5 / .368 / .222 / .909

Lettuce beef reality...not that good :oldlol:

Better than KAJ's '88 Finals tbh

.414 fg%
.714 ft%
29.6 mpg
13.1 ppg
4.1 rpg
1.0 apg
0.6 spg
1.1 bpg