Was Kobe "1b" when Shaq was with the Lakers? Or...?

[TheCorporation]

I hear people calling Kobe "1b" during Shaq's 3-peat. Does the b stand for beta? One beta? And 1a stands for one alpha?

A lot of people like to go on emotions and name calling only. I like to post facts. So, without further adieu, FACTS about 1beta Kobe and how he faired once Shaq left the Lakers...

2005: Kobe's Lakers won 34 games, going 34-48, missing the playoffs
2006: Kobe's Lakers won 45 games, going 45-37, lost in the 1st round to MVP Nash's Suns
2007: Kobe's Lakers won 42 games, going 42-40, lost in 1st round to Nash's Suns

Summary
Misses playoffs
loses in 1st round
loses in 1st round

Yep, sounds like "1b" right here...But does 1b = one beta?

What it sounds like to me is a clear cut Robin. Was Kobe's "1b" name meant to stand for one beta? Or have I cracked the code?

Kobe was touted the 1b to Shaq and "MVP" of the league, when clearly, he just wasn't...We saw what an MVP does with a not so favorable roster. They win 60+ games, they get past the 1st round, etc.

They don't miss playoffs and get bounced in the 1st round multiple times. In the beginning of his career (like MJ got bounced in the 1st round multiple times) okay that makes sense. I get it. But when you're already labeled as "1b" to ****ing Shaq?! There is no more leeway.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

I hear people calling Kobe "1b" during Shaq's 3-peat. Does the b stand for beta? One beta? And 1a stands for one alpha?

A lot of people like to go on emotions and name calling only. I like to post facts. So, without further adieu, FACTS about 1beta Kobe and how he faired once Shaq left the Lakers...

2005: Kobe's Lakers won 34 games, going 34-48, missing the playoffs
2006: Kobe's Lakers won 45 games, going 45-37, lost in the 1st round to MVP Nash's Suns
2007: Kobe's Lakers won 42 games, going 42-40, lost in 1st round to Nash's Suns

Summary
Misses playoffs
loses in 1st round
loses in 1st round

Yep, sounds like "1b" right here...But does 1b = one beta?

What it sounds like to me is a clear cut Robin. Was Kobe's "1b" name meant to stand for one beta? Or have I cracked the code?

I mean off course when Kwame is your center you should be winning 60+ games. :biggums:

[Warfan]

He was a top 5 player in 01 & 02, and carried garbage teams to the playoffs while having one of the best scoring seasons ever, and nearly beat the #1 seed. And then went to 3 straight finals and won 2 straight championships without Shaq. You forgot to mention that :lol

[Black and White]

If you ever struggle to sleep, log on to ISH in the off-season, threads like this will put you to sleep.

[Droid101]

Kobe must have stole this dude's lunch money when he was a kid or something.

[TheCorporation]

I mean off course when Kwame is your center you should be winning 60+ games. :biggums:

Dude, from what I've heard Kobe was the MVP of the league, the best player in the league at the time! He was bailing Shaq out during the 3-peat and was the "1b" during their run!

At least, that's what people say...Then I see the facts. Two 1st round boots and a complete missing of the playoffs. Doesn't sound very MVPesque to me.

Do we really need to go over LeBron's supporting cast, for comparison? LeBron's Cavs won 35 games (Kobe won 34 when Shaq left). Bron never won less than 42 after his 1st year in the league. And yet the "Kobe 2005-2006" league MVP won 35 and 45 games and was the "1b" that was nearly as good as Shaq...:coleman:

[TheCorporation]

He was a top 5 player in 01 & 02, and carried garbage teams to the playoffs while having one of the best scoring seasons ever, and nearly beat the #1 seed. And then went to 3 straight finals and won 2 straight championships without Shaq. You forgot to mention that :lol

Oh, you mean once he got Pau Gasol? And Ron Artest?

[played0ut]

Oh, you mean once he got Pau Gasol? And Ron Artest?

Huh? And Shaq won 3 with kobe and 1 with wade. What's your point

[Milbuck]

And were my observations not factual?
Facts can be pretty meaningless when you intentionally ignore context.

T-Mac's team made the Finals in 2013. Facts though, right?

[TheCorporation]

Huh? And Shaq won 3 with kobe and 1 with wade. What's your point
My point is very simple.

Give Kobe elite 7-footers and he seems to do very well (imagine that). The facts are there for everyone to see how well he did without any 7-footers that were elite rebounders and scorers.

Side note: If Kobe truly was 1b then shouldn't he have done a better job than missing the playoffs completely and then having two first round exits? Honest question. LeBron's never been knocked out of the first round.

[SpecialQue]

OP was conceived on July 1, 2003. Hence, the anger.

[TheCorporation]

Facts can be pretty meaningless when you intentionally ignore context.

T-Mac's team made the Finals in 2013. Facts though, right?

Is there any substances to what you're saying? Or just want to say that to say it? My point is that Kobe was touted the 1b to Shaq and "MVP" of the league, when clearly...We saw what an MVP does with a not so favorable roster. They win 60+ games, they get past the 1st round, etc.

[Droid101]

My point is very simple.

Give Kobe elite 7-footers and he seems to do very well (imagine that). The facts are there for everyone to see how well he did without any 7-footers that were elite rebounders and scorers.

Side note: If Kobe truly was 1b then shouldn't he have done a better job than missing the playoffs completely and then having two first round exits? Honest question. LeBron's never been knocked out of the first round.
Honest question, how many times did LeBron face the 2006-2010 Suns in the playoffs?

Honest question, how often did Kobe outplay Shaq in the first three rounds (the actual playoffs) in 2001?

Honest question, are you actually retarded, or do you just pretend on the internet?

[TheCorporation]

OP was conceived on July 1, 2003. Hence, the anger.

Haha, come on man, no anger here. I know you're a Kobe fan, that's cool. You're a good poster on the site for the most part, but you can't deny that I am bringing up some good points? If Kobe was truly the "1b" and league MVP he surely could've scraped together a few more wins and maybe get them to the second round? During Bron's MVP runs he won 60+ games both times in Cleveland and didn't get bounced in the 1st round. I'm not being a hater, trying to put things into perspective for the hating stans. I know you're not a stan so I'm trying to reason with you.

[dubeta]

I talked about this from another thread, other than 2008-2010 Kobe's tenure as "the man" has been a huge bust

Misses playoffs, 1st round exits

Then gets swept by Dallas in 2011, and then barely makes playoffs with an all star team in 2013

very underwhelming tbh

[TheCorporation]

Honest question, how many times did LeBron face the 2006-2010 Suns in the playoffs?

LeBron was playing in the Eastern Conference, with the Celtics big 3, D12 winning multiple DPOY awards and rebounding titles, the Detroit Pistons, etc.



Honest question, how often did Kobe outplay Shaq in the first three rounds (the actual playoffs) in 2001?


So, you're saying Kobe did well when the pressure was off and focused on Shaq. But as soon as Shaq left...Well, you saw what happened. Got it.



Honest question, are you actually retarded, or do you just pretend on the internet?
Droid, you have a robot for your screen name, and a fat nerdy looking guy for your avatar...Wanna rethink your question? :lol

[Milbuck]

Is there any substances to what you're saying? Or just want to say that to say it? My point is that Kobe was touted the 1b to Shaq and "MVP" of the league, when clearly...We saw what an MVP does with a not so favorable roster. They win 60+ games, they get past the 1st round, etc.
There is substance in my post, you're just too blind to see it. If you honestly can't wrap your head around why Kobe was knocked out of the first round against those back-to-back 2nd seed Phoenix teams, there's really no intelligent discussion to be had.

[TheCorporation]

I talked about this from another thread, other than 2008-2010 Kobe's tenure as "the man" has been a huge bust

Misses playoffs, 1st round exits

Then gets swept by Dallas in 2011, and then barely makes playoffs with an all star team in 2013

very underwhelming tbh

Exactly. Could you imagine LeBron missing the playoffs completely? And then back-to-back 1st round exits. Jesus. ISH would be shut down for weeks.

[Droid101]

There is substance in my post, you're just too blind to see it. If you honestly can't wrap your head around why Kobe was knocked out of the first round against those back-to-back 2nd seed Phoenix teams, there's really no intelligent discussion to be had.
I saw that edit. :oldlol:

Don't worry, I'll still rep you. :cheers:

[TheCorporation]

There is substance in my post, you're just too blind to see it. If you honestly can't wrap your head around why Kobe was knocked out of the first round against those back-to-back 2nd seed Phoenix teams, there's really no intelligent discussion to be had.

Kobe was touted the 1b to Shaq and "MVP" of the league, when clearly, he just wasn't...We saw what an MVP does with a not so favorable roster. They win 60+ games, they get past the 1st round, etc.

They don't miss playoffs and get bounced in the 1st round multiple times. In the beginning of his career (like MJ got bounced in the 1st round multiple times) okay that makes sense. I get it. But when you're already labeled as "1b" to ****ing Shaq?! There is no more leeway.

Your turn: Say something good this time, don't play the "if you can't read my mind then I can't continue to type" BS.

[Purch]

I always say that putting Kobe as 1B whiles looking at the entire 3 peat, is being quite generous Imho

[Milbuck]

I saw that edit. :oldlol:

Don't worry, I'll still rep you. :cheers:
Hit me immediately after I posted the comment that not a single part of it would mean anything, the dude would ignore all of it completely and recycle the same trash he's been spewing this whole thread. Thought I'd take out the meat of the post and end it there.

[Droid101]

Hit me immediately after I posted the comment that not a single part of it would mean anything, the dude would ignore all of it completely and recycle the same trash he's been spewing this whole thread. Thought I'd take out the meat of the post and end it there.
He won't care what you post at all. Kobe could go 50/10/10 next season and he'd still ignore it to try to prove his garbage points.

[TheCorporation]

He won't care what you post at all. Kobe could go 50/10/10 next season and he'd still ignore it to try to prove his garbage points.

Not at all. Kobe is a great talent, he has 2 Finals MVPs, back to back, only very few players have ever done that. He is in elite company with:

Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Kobe
LeBron

Only 5 players in NBA history have won back-to-back Finals MVPs. That's an amazing list of players if you ask me. No hating, just bringing stuff up that people don't think about.

[JtotheIzzo]

I hear people calling Kobe "1b" during Shaq's 3-peat. Does the b stand for beta? One beta? And 1a stands for one alpha?

A lot of people like to go on emotions and name calling only. I like to post facts. So, without further adieu, FACTS about 1beta Kobe and how he faired once Shaq left the Lakers...

2005: Kobe's Lakers won 34 games, going 34-48, missing the playoffs
2006: Kobe's Lakers won 45 games, going 45-37, lost in the 1st round to MVP Nash's Suns
2007: Kobe's Lakers won 42 games, going 42-40, lost in 1st round to Nash's Suns

Summary
Misses playoffs
loses in 1st round
loses in 1st round

Yep, sounds like "1b" right here...But does 1b = one beta?

What it sounds like to me is a clear cut Robin. Was Kobe's "1b" name meant to stand for one beta? Or have I cracked the code?

Kobe was touted the 1b to Shaq and "MVP" of the league, when clearly, he just wasn't...We saw what an MVP does with a not so favorable roster. They win 60+ games, they get past the 1st round, etc.

They don't miss playoffs and get bounced in the 1st round multiple times. In the beginning of his career (like MJ got bounced in the 1st round multiple times) okay that makes sense. I get it. But when you're already labeled as "1b" to ****ing Shaq?! There is no more leeway.


He was 2 with a bullet, anything else is revisionist history

[Hands of Iron]

Honest question, how often did Kobe outplay Shaq in the first three rounds (the actual playoffs) in 2001?

Shaq was still pretty fvcking dominant. He had series of 27/16/3, 33/17/3, 27/13/3 through the first three rounds of the 2001 playoffs. Considering that he was the primary focus of the defense, was an absolute monster on the glass and held a far greater impact on the defensive end not to mention dealing with the Twin Towers in that WCF (Plus DPOY Mutombo + Friends in the Finals), I'm not sure Kobe was better at all to be honest. His immensely elevated play as compared to 2000 was definitely the reason they were able to steamroll to 15-1 rather than 'merely win' ala 2000 though. Kobe had some truly Dreadful outings throughout that run.

[SMoKe0uT]

5/7 > 2/5 :lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

Shaq was still pretty fvcking dominant. He had series of 27/16/3, 33/17/3, 27/13/3 through the first three rounds of the 2001 playoffs. Considering that he was the primary focus of the defense, was an absolute monster on the glass and held a far greater impact on the defensive end not to mention dealing with the Twin Towers in that WCF (Plus DPOY Mutombo + Friends in the Finals), I'm not sure Kobe was better at all to be honest. His immensely elevated play as compared to 2000 was definitely the reason they were able to steamroll to 15-1 rather than 'merely win' ala 2000 though. Kobe had some truly Dreadful outings throughout that run.

I wouldnt say that

First round: 28/4/4/1/.6 on 50% FG

Second round: 21/4/3/2/1 on 45%

WCF: 20/5/6/1/2 on 44% (huge game 7)

Obviously he didnt have a very good finals, he was injured early in the series and only played 9 minutes in that game, but had a huge game 4. Definitely wasnt on Shaqs level but Kobe brought it in the opening 3 rounds with good scoring and great defense (averaging more blocks than Shaq in some series)

[Hands of Iron]

I wouldnt say that

First round: 28/4/4/1/.6 on 50% FG

Second round: 21/4/3/2/1 on 45%

WCF: 20/5/6/1/2 on 44% (huge game 7)

Obviously he didnt have a very good finals, he was injured early in the series and only played 9 minutes in that game, but had a huge game 4. Definitely wasnt on Shaqs level but Kobe brought it in the opening 3 rounds with good scoring and great defense (averaging more blocks than Shaq in some series)

I was talking more about individual games, but yeah he evened it out to salvage something from it. The 2000 playoffs were tumultuous, first getting taken the distance by Sacramento (Shaq dropping 32/18 in that game) and then nearly blowing a 3-1 series lead to Portland, would've went down as an all-time choke job. They really should've closed them out on the strength of Shaq's 31/21 Game 5 -- and the Blazers did as well a job containing him as anybody.

[gts]

You can't compare the Shaq Kobe years to the years that followed...

The whole dynamic of the organization changed, The coaching staff, the roster, the scouting staff was overhauled, it was a total overhaul of the franchise per Jerry Buss's orders. Even Kobe's approach to the game changed... For all intents and purposes it should be viewed the same as if Kobe went to a different team because that' exactly what it was

To even begin to compare the the two situations is complete nonsense, but then that's what we've come to expect from the OP

[AirFederer]

KObe could never carry a team. The Kobe assist only gets you so far. :confusedshrug:

[ZaaaaaH]

Where is LeBron?

[Real14]

Exactly. Could you imagine LeBron missing the playoffs completely? And then back-to-back 1st round exits. Jesus. ISH would be shut down for weeks.
How old are you?:biggums: you know dat niguh missed playoffs twice in 04 and 05??:lol

[INDI]

[QUOTE=TheCorporation]No, but people who are hating on LBJ and are Kobestans should be more careful. You know the saying:

Don't throw rocks if you live in a glass house.

And were my observations only thing that was factual was the record.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amazing how people fail to realize that They lost way more than Shaq that year.

Shaq
Malone
Payton
Fox
Fisher...

Kobe lost the entire starting lineup and sixth man. Not only that but the biggest loss was this

PHIL JACKSON AND THE TRIANGLE!!! he lost the system that he was designed to play in. Do you realize that when he was able to play back in his preferred system that he went back to the finals 3 times in a row??????????????


Not only did he lose his system, starting lineup, sixth man, and coach, but the following year Devean George and Vlade Divac was in the staring lineup and both missed 63 games. Kobe and Lamar also missed alot of games that season but despite all that they was still in the playoffs at allstar break.

Dudes is funny because had only shaq left and the rest stayed including phil, the lakers would've more than likely went back to the finals the following season.

[T_L_P]

[QUOTE=TheCorporation]
Dudes is funny because had only shaq left and the rest stayed including phil, the lakers would've more than likely went back to the finals the following season.

:oldlol:

I've never heard that one before.

Also, Phil left because the Lakers didn't trade Kobe. So there's no scenario available where Phil and Kobe are both on the same team in 05. Sorry.

[1rkrage]

1b

[HoopsFanNumero1]

1 Beta's actually a pretty good nickname for Kobe :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

First 3-peat finals:

MJ: 36ppg on 52%
Pip: 20ppg on 45% = MJ clear cut leader

Shaq: 35ppg on 59%
Kobe: 22ppg on 42% = Kobe & Shaq were 1A/1B?

(Pippen better playmaker, rebounder and defender than Kobe)

/thread

[Ne 1]

Don't think anyone denies Shaq was the best player on those teams. Though if you look at the 2001 and 2002 runs series by series, Kobe was very close to him or better in the toughest series. In '01 Kobe was dominant as hell, rivaling even prime Shaq's statline through the West playoffs. In '02 he stepped up over and over again in the fourth. He single handedly swung the 2002 Spurs series by winning three consecutive games in the fourth quarter or second half. No "second option" has had to carry as much load as him in crunch time. Anyone who really thinks Kobe "piggy backed" Shaq is an idiot. Shaq was the superior player, but Kobe more than held his own as well and his production and level of play was on par with or better than some rings won as the "1st option."

[riseagainst]

does OP talk about anything other than Kobe Bryant?

[SOD 21]

Most people will acknowledge that Kobe Bryant was more of a sidekick in Los Angeles Lakers championship run in 2000. Shaq was clearly the most dominant player and a league and obviously deserving of the MVP award.

But with that said, Kobe Bryant came up huge in critical moments of that playoff run with clutch moments against Phoenix, Portland and in Game 4 of the finals when he was hurt.

But let's compare their numbers from 2001 through 2004 in which most people believe they were fairly equal.

Shaq: 26.3 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 57% fg, 28.5 PER, 58.6% TS, 51.2 winshares,
four All NBA teams (all first), two All Defensive teams (both second teams) and three top five finishes in MVP voting.

Kobe: 27.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 46% fg, 34% 3PT, 24.5 PER, 55.1% TS, 49.7 winshares, four All NBA teams (three 1st and a second), four All Defensive teams (two first and two second) and three top five finishes in MVP voting.

[Nick Young]

Kobe was 1A. Kobe's unguardability opened everything up for the Diesel to dominate down low. Mamba was primary playmaker of those teams.

[SOD 21]

[QUOTE=Nick Young]Kobe was 1A. Kobe's unguardability opened everything up for the Diesel to dominate down low. Mamba was primary playmaker of those teams.[/]

Kobe and Shaq's play mutually benefited each other, even though they were both too stupid to fully realize and appreciate it at the time.

Shaq's rampant insecurity and Kobe's unparalleled arrogance were just a bad match.

[Heavincent]

So, you're saying Kobe did well when the pressure was off and focused on Shaq. But as soon as Shaq left...Well, you saw what happened. Got it.


Uh yeah...led his team to 3 finals appearances and 2 rings...won more without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe as matter of fact. I don't think that helps your argument.

[Roundball_Rock]

Oh, you mean once he got Pau Gasol? And Ron Artest?

Gasol was a vital piece but people forget the Lakers were in first place before the Gasol trade.

Kobe was never on peak Shaq's level (outside of a few series)--but Kobe was a top 10 player in 2000 and a top 3-5 player in 2001 and 2002. Without Kobe, those teams do not win championships, despite Shaq playing at perhaps the GOAT peak level. It was largely the rise of Kobe that pushed the Lakers from contenders to champions.


First 3-peat finals:

MJ: 36ppg on 52%
Pip: 20ppg on 45% = MJ clear cut leader

Shaq: 35ppg on 59%
Kobe: 22ppg on 42% = Kobe & Shaq were 1A/1B?

(Pippen better playmaker, rebounder and defender than Kobe)

/thread

Pippen: 21/9/7, 21/8/8, 21/9/8 in those Finals. Without him the Bulls don't win anything either.

What these two cases prove is how overblown all this "sidekick" talk is. If MJ and Shaq did not get superstar performances from their teammates, their teams would not have won. Indeed, Shaq was getting swept routinely before Kobe (despite playing with Penny, Grant, Van Excel and Jones) and MJ did not begin contending for titles until Pippen became a key contributor (despite having a 20+ ppg second option and a 16 ppg third option his first two years).

[riseagainst]

Uh yeah...led his team to 3 finals appearances and 2 rings...won more without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe as matter of fact. I don't think that helps your argument.

inb4 something about Gasol, Fisher, Odom, Bynum, Jackson. They'll keep naming names until every teammate has been mentioned. Then Kobe will be forced to play 1v5, and if he wins they'll just say it's the refs. If refs were not present, they'll just say it was illegal because it was 1v5.

[Real14]

1 Beta's actually a pretty good nickname for Kobe :lol
Lebron should be tha deep throat choker.:coleman:

[INDI]

Shaq
Fisher
Malone
Fox
Payton
Phil Jackson
Triangle offense

All was lost that year

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Lebron should be tha deep throat choker.:coleman:
Yo momma being the hood rat she iz already took it :biggums:

[TheCorporation]

1 Beta's actually a pretty good nickname for Kobe :lol

I thought it was pretty funny :lol

Soon as Shaq leaves Kobe misses the playoffs, followed by two first round exits. 1b for sure.