Waco, Texas. WTF happened?

[stalkerforlife]

I just watched a special about David Koresh and the Waco, Texas incident.

My question is...

WTF happened?

Why did they raid this place with such force and violence? Why didn't they just get Koresh while he was off the compound? Over 80 people died, including dozens of children, but why? This religious group was not threatening anyone, that I know of. They kept to themselves. They had a bunch of guns, but it was their American right.

I am baffled by the handling of this situation.

[BasedTom]

You just answered it yourself. Waco, Texas.

[~primetime~]

It was absolutely disgusting the way that was handled...and many don't even realize it either.

I am old enough to remember that going down, and the way the media handled it you would have thought Koresh was the devil and that the US needed to send in military to blow the place up.

Still to this day some people feel like what was done was justified...

[Godzuki]

i don't think the cops knew they were going to get fired on until it happened. I could be wrong but i thought they just walked up to the door like any other warrant and then the cops got shot at(didn't one get shot?)...then the whole siege happened after that.

[DukeDelonte13]

i don't think the cops knew they were going to get fired on until it happened. I could be wrong but i thought they just walked up to the door like any other warrant and then the cops got shot at(didn't one get shot?)...then the whole siege happened after that.


i think the final report says something like the cult shot at the cops first, but nobody really knows.

Religious Extremists + a whole f*cking stockpile of assault rifles isn't a good thing.

Korresh was a f*cked up dude. Wasn't he sleeping with children? Doesn't justify what happened of course but let's not act like he was just a peaceful wise religious guy. He was f*cked up.

[Godzuki]

i think the final report says something like the cult shot at the cops first, but nobody really knows.

Religious Extremists + a whole f*cking stockpile of assault rifles isn't a good thing.

Korresh was a f*cked up dude. Wasn't he sleeping with children? Doesn't justify what happened of course but let's not act like he was just a peaceful wise religious guy. He was f*cked up.


i don't think he was a pedo but i could be wrong. he did sleep with his congregations wives.

i completely agree about the religious extremists + stockpile of assault weapons. I don't know why people think they have a right to create a weapons compound like that. Sux for Texas law enforcement but i'm sure they all believe in their right to have compounds like that in case they have to fight the government. that seems to be their way of thinking...

[Done_And_Done]

You're wrong about the non-threatening part. The Branch Dividians were a delusional cult that were brainwashed to do virtually anything for David. The guy completely f*ucked with their heads. Very Jim Jones'esq but to a smaller degree.

Side note - during the raid those who died were of the belief that what they were experiencing was the armageddon.

[KevinNYC]

i don't think he was a pedo but i could be wrong. he did sleep with his congregations wives.

One girl testified to Congress about her abuse (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-07-20/news/9507200155_1_kiri-jewell-branch-davidian-waco)
Kiri told of her life with the Davidians.

Forced to have sex at the age of 10, she said she "stared at the ceiling" as Koresh molested her and afterward "stayed in the shower for maybe an hour."

Kiri's father, David Jewell, pulled her away from the religious group when he won custody from Kiri's mother, who was among 80 Davidians who died in the blaze that engulfed the Waco compound on April 19, 1993.

Jewell told the panel of a phone call he got in 1991 from a man he'd never met, who ominously said, "I have reason to believe your daughter is in danger."

The caller, a former Branch Davidian, warned Jewell that Koresh intended to take his 10 year-old daughter as his "wife."

"The David Koresh I came to know of . . . was a man of absolute unparalled evil intent," said Jewell, who gently hugged his daughter after her testimony.

The girl said her mother led her into the isolated religious community when she was 5 or 6.

There, Koresh had sex with other girls, cruelly disciplined children, taught war and prophesized a "big battle" with the forces of the world, she said. She also said the children were taught to kill themselves by putting a gun in their mouth and pulling the trigger.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=131982[QUOTE]The seven survivors tell Gibson life in the compound was horrific. Physical abuse was a common occurrence, and there was no running water or indoor plumbing, they say. No attempt was made to provide the children with an education.

"When I left at age 18, I probably had an eighth-grade education," says Brad Borst.

In fact, Koresh made sure they were completely isolated from the outside world. Koresh brainwashed the children into thinking everyone outside of the cult was evil, and he prepared them for what he described as a final battle that would end the world and bring them eternal glory. Koresh threatened to kill the children after his resurrection if they helped the "bad guys."

Kiri Jewell, now 22, says she was sexually abused by Koresh when she was 10 years old and groomed to be his youngest wife

[Godzuki]

One girl testified to Congress about her abuse (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-07-20/news/9507200155_1_kiri-jewell-branch-davidian-waco)

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=131982


yeah i actually watched a documentary with these women who left the compound telling their story a long time ago....i just couldn't remember much of it since it was probably like 5+ years ago

i should've probably assumed he was pedo with the religious extremism + cult + compound.

[~primetime~]

Doesn't matter what Koresh was...law enforcement gassed the entire building, dozens of women and children were found with broken spines because they were so gassed up that they curled up until their backs broke...smh

The way it was handled was disgusting...should not be forgotten or forgiven

[kentatm]

Doesn't matter what Koresh was...law enforcement gassed the entire building, dozens of women and children were found with broken spines because they were so gassed up that they curled up until their backs broke...smh

The way it was handled was disgusting...should not be forgotten or forgiven


I lean towards this take.

Yea he was probably a bad dude.

that doesnt mean you go in guns blazing and kill a shitload of women and children.

[Derka]

yeah i actually watched a documentary with these women who left the compound telling their story a long time ago....i just couldn't remember much of it since it was probably like 5+ years ago

i should've probably assumed he was pedo with the religious extremism + cult + compound.

Koresh had these people convinced that he was the Messiah and that it was their duty to give him their wives and daughters to f*ck and screw as he pleased. He knew that at some point the disgusting shit he was doing was going to come out...hence the stockpiling of weapons ready to go when the federal government came knocking.

Sorry but you can't f*ck kids, not even in your own cult compound that you own and not even if their parents are totally cool with it. He knew it and being the lunatic that he was, he was entirely cool with murdering 80 of his own people and himself instead of spending his life locked away.

Edit: this isn't to say the government didn't absolutely butcher the handling of it. They absolutely did. But let's not act like this was some government orchestrated massacre of women and children.

[Godzuki]

Koresh had these people convinced that he was the Messiah and that it was their duty to give him their wives and daughters to f*ck and screw as he pleased. He knew that at some point the disgusting shit he was doing was going to come out...hence the stockpiling of weapons ready to go when the federal government came knocking.

Sorry but you can't f*ck kids, not even in your own cult compound that you own and not even if their parents are totally cool with it. He knew it and being the lunatic that he was, he was entirely cool with murdering 80 of his own people and himself instead of spending his life locked away.

Edit: this isn't to say the government didn't absolutely butcher the handling of it. They absolutely did. But let's not act like this was some government orchestrated massacre of women and children.


yeah i don't see it as a government massacre so much. Even when peoplle blame the gov for the handling of it, you can at least see what they tried to do to get this resolved in a non violent way.

Obviously they didn't intend for the nerve gas to be that strong. same thing happened in Russia awhile back in a movie theater altho everyone didn't die.

[Derka]

yeah i don't see it as a government massacre so much. Even when peoplle blame the gov for the handling of it, you can at least see what they tried to do to get this resolved in a non violent way.

Obviously they didn't intend for the nerve gas to be that strong. same thing happened in Russia awhile back in a movie theater altho everyone didn't die.

The ATF guys had very itchy trigger fingers to start with, made worse when the Davidians started firing when the warrant was served. Also, the FBI wasn't using nerve gas...they were using tear gas. Nerve gas kills people...tear gas makes you very uncomfortable.

[ZenMaster]

One girl testified to Congress about her abuse (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-07-20/news/9507200155_1_kiri-jewell-branch-davidian-waco)

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=131982

Young girls testifying to congress doesn't hold much weight after they let that "Iraqi" girl in there, just saying.

Obviously don't know what happened and didn't even hear about this until 10th grade I think, but all the signs of something being off are there. Conflicting reports and statements, media taking quotes out of context to paint an individual a certain way, released footage strongly edited, parts of the story being proven false years later and a nice little sound bite of a guy telling a story on how somebody threatend Bill Clinton with "telling the truth about Waco" if not re-elected for some public seat in Texas.

[KevinNYC]

I just watched a special about David Koresh and the Waco, Texas incident.

My question is...

WTF happened?

Why did they raid this place with such force and violence? Why didn't they just get Koresh while he was off the compound? Over 80 people died, including dozens of children, but why? This religious group was not threatening anyone, that I know of. They kept to themselves. They had a bunch of guns, but it was their American right.

I am baffled by the handling of this situation.

There's a couple of things to untangle there. You can read the local press story (https://sermons.logos.com/submissions/108239-The-Sinful-Messiah-#content=/submissions/108239) on the Davidians written before the raid and let me know if you feel they weren't threatening anyone, especially the young children David Koresh slept with. Is child sexual abuse OK, because it was kept within the cult?


The FBI/ATF went in with such force after a 51 day standof.
After the cult had 51 days to defuse this situation.
51 days when the cult leader could have gotten the children out of this obviously dangerous situation, but chose not to do so

There was a standoff because when they when they first tried arrest Koresh, a several hour gun battle erupted because the local mailman, who was related to David Koresh saw the ATF agents and tipped Davidians off to the raid. The Davidians had a sniper on the roof of the compound. 4 ATF agents were killed. So that's not the same as keeping to themselves. Several of the survivors were convicted of crimes relating to these homicides.

The Branch Davidians were apocalyptic cult and had been preparing for a standoff like this and had years of food stockpiled and lot of heavy weaponry. So a Cult leader who is accused of sexually abusing young girls, you had 4 dead law enforcement agents and the perpetrators unarrested for over a month and now they seem to be using women and children as hostages. The ATF/FBI chose a series of militaristic and antagonistic responses.

However, for all the criticism that could be leveled afterwards at the government, how should this have been handled?

What's the right way to deal with someone who thinks they are Jesus Christ?

How do you deal with a cult brainwashed to believe this man and this man alone can deliver them into heaven? And are armed to the teeth and willing to kill for this belief?

I just came across this article which sums it up rather nicely (http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/enemy-within)

[QUOTE]A blundered raid and a botched finale don

[KevinNYC]

that doesnt mean you go in guns blazing and kill a shitload of women and children.

They didn't. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege#Chronology_of_events_of_April_19)

The first raid, they had info that the men they wanted started their day working outside the compound and they planned to capture the men there. This info probably was wrong in retrospect, but it didn't matter because they Davidians knew they were coming. The mistake was not calling off the raid once they learned this, which they did.

On the day of the fire, they explained to them what was going to happen, that they were going to teargas the building to force the Davidians to leave. They explained that they were going to uses tanks to do it and not to fire on the tanks. They told them it was time for them to surrender. This started hours before the fires.

They chose not to surrender. Instead they poured Coleman fuel all around the compound and chose to go out this way.

[KevinNYC]

Young girls testifying to congress doesn't hold much weight after they let that "Iraqi" girl in there, just saying.

This might be the dumbest thing I have ever read.

[ZenMaster]

This might be the dumbest thing I have ever read.

How so?

Edit: Come on Kev don't leave me hanging, I actually have a point.

[DeuceWallaces]

It was absolutely disgusting the way that was handled...and many don't even realize it either.

I am old enough to remember that going down, and the way the media handled it you would have thought Koresh was the devil and that the US needed to send in military to blow the place up.

Still to this day some people feel like what was done was justified...

Yeah? You were like 11 and remember how it played it out in the media and political arena?

[~primetime~]

Yeah? You were like 11 and remember how it played it out in the media and political arena?
Yes, that is correct. I was in high school and remember it very well, it was a big fckin deal here to say the least.

I have also watched numerous specials/reenactments on this...and read up a great deal on this. Especially after the OKC bombing was linked to it, where I have many relatives.

[stalkerforlife]

Thanks for all the input, guys. ALL of it. I take it all into consideration and I am just seeking the truth.

I understand it better now, but I will never fully understand it all.

[Rasheed1]

Doesn't matter what Koresh was...law enforcement gassed the entire building, dozens of women and children were found with broken spines because they were so gassed up that they curled up until their backs broke...smh

The way it was handled was disgusting...should not be forgotten or forgiven


Im actually proud of you bro :applause: ... you summed it up nicely

there is no reason in the world why they should have done what they did to those people

[ace23]

Haven't heard anything about Waco lately

[Rasheed1]

also Kevin NYC works for the government :lol (I swear he fights tooth & nail to get government point of view out on this site)

[ZenMaster]

Thanks for all the input, guys. ALL of it. I take it all into consideration and I am just seeking the truth.

I understand it better now, but I will never fully understand it all.

Try and watch "Waco the rules of engagement", it's on youtube.

@ KevinNYC

I can't let you drop the one liner and then be silent to try and make me look like an idiot.

1) I remembered the Nayirah testimony wrong and it was in fact not before US congress, that was not smart. But the fake testimony was in fact produced for US interests.

2) There where reports of Kelly Jewel giving conflicting testimony.

3) And most important, at least in the video I've seen of her testimony she does not break down but instead just reads a written statement. The amount of strength it would take for a 14 year old girl to sit there give the statement while the memory rolls in her head and not be affected emotionally I can't describe.
Around here in trials on child molestation the children only give testimony for the jury, lawyers and judge, everybody is moved from the court. Or they'll have give the testimony and answer question from the lawers out of court and show the video to only the jury and judge.
They do that because children cannot give testimony on them being raped in front of a crowd, and you wouldn't want to completely take away a rape victims last dignity like that.

[MadeFromDust]

Janet Reno happened. /end thread

[unbreakable]

also Kevin NYC works for the government :lol (I swear he fights tooth & nail to get government point of view out on this site)

Yup he's a ******* of the highest order

[ace23]

Doesn't matter what Koresh was...law enforcement gassed the entire building, dozens of women and children were found with broken spines because they were so gassed up that they curled up until their backs broke...smh
Interesting. How does that work?

[PHX_Phan]

Lol @ Kevin.


They used Gas, Napalm, Armed Helicopters and a Tank to go in on a bunch of women and children. Anybody who didn't die from gunfire or gas were finished off when they lit the whole building up. Kind of hard to use the 'but the kids!' excuse when you kill them all.

You can dig up all the dirt you want on Koresh. They still used military force against civilians, and mowed down an entire community of people with him.

[~primetime~]

Interesting. How does that work?
not sure...the excessive gas made their bodies twitch uncontrollably to the point that some of their back's broke I guess.

[Godzuki]

also Kevin NYC works for the government :lol (I swear he fights tooth & nail to get government point of view out on this site)


on the other hand defending a extremist cult that is amassing arms so they can live in this country but not be held accountable to our laws isn't okay either. even if its Texas :P


if anything most people on this site are anti US government to a extreme

[ZenMaster]

on the other hand defending a extremist cult that is amassing arms so they can live in this country but not be held accountable to our laws isn't okay either. even if its Texas :P


if anything most people on this site are anti US government to a extreme

The thing is that the governement agencies screwed up no matter how you look at it.

Either they went in with the intention of raiding the place and killing most of the people(there's video of two agents firing into the part of the building where most of the kids died while the fire was starting there).
Or they completely just completely dropped the ball.
The official story is that they knew he was going to light the place on fire if they went in with tanks, yet they still went in and hoped "the instincts of the mothers" would kick in and they'd come running out the building with their kids.

Fact is the official story is full of holes from beginning to end and it's probably because of a cover up.

[Godzuki]

The thing is that the governement agencies screwed up no matter how you look at it.

Either they went in with the intention of raiding the place and killing most of the people(there's video of two agents firing into the part of the building where most of the kids died while the fire was starting there).
Or they completely just completely dropped the ball.
The official story is that they knew he was going to light the place on fire if they went in with tanks, yet they still went in and hoped "the instincts of the mothers" would kick in and they'd come running out the building with their kids.

Fact is the official story is full of holes from beginning to end and it's probably because of a cover up.



the way i see it is they tried to gas them out before they could set it off. I mean you can't just let them dictate the situation because they have women and children in the compound. they killed police in the initial serving the warrant.

I just can't get past the fact that nobody needs a cult compound armed to the teeth with guns period. Nobody should have a right to that BS anywhere in this country. If people really think they need to fight the government like that then fukkin move to another country.


i just don't think you can allow the bad guys to dictate terms no matter what they're holding as hostage, especially after cops killed.

and the thing i do wonder about is lets say you did allow them to dictate terms....do you really think he'd have ever given up?

[KevinNYC]

I just watched a special about David Koresh and the Waco, Texas incident.

My question is...

WTF happened?

Why did they raid this place with such force and violence? Why didn't they just get Koresh while he was off the compound? Over 80 people died, including dozens of children, but why? This religious group was not threatening anyone, that I know of. They kept to themselves. They had a bunch of guns, but it was their American right.

I am baffled by the handling of this situation.

This Frontline piece from 1995 has interviews with both the negotiators and the tactical team and shows what they were thinking throughout the siege. There was also a pretty strong disagreement on whether negotiation or force was going to resolve the standoff. The answer may have been neither. The lead negotiator challenges David Koresh on his theology and he says that's when he realized he was not dealing with someone who believed they were Christ, but a conman posing as Christ. Weeks before the end, they had negotiated a deal where all the children would leave and in exchange they would give Koresh a nationwide radio broadcast to preach his religious message. The morning it was supposed to happen, they kids were in there coats and lined up at the door and Koresh said at the last minute God told them to wait. That was when the negotiators realized that Koresh never intended to leave.
http://vimeo.com/13978271

[ZenMaster]

the way i see it is they tried to gas them out before they could set it off. I mean you can't just let them dictate the situation because they have women and children in the compound. they killed police in the initial serving the warrant.

I just can't get past the fact that nobody needs a cult compound armed to the teeth with guns period. Nobody should have a right to that BS anywhere in this country. If people really think they need to fight the government like that then fukkin move to another country.


i just don't think you can allow the bad guys to dictate terms no matter what they're holding as hostage, especially after cops killed.

and the thing i do wonder about is lets say you did allow them to dictate terms....do you really think he'd have ever given up?

One of the guy who wrote a book on it and gave testimony to congress was saying the he was making money off of dealing weapons and so he had an inventory.

They did kill ATF agents but it was ruled self defense and they where acquitted in a court of law. ATF had video they could have used to prove they didn't shoot first and that Koresh opened fire on them like they claimed, but the tapes went "missing" not long after the event.

Then they lied over and over again about "not firing a single shot during the tank raid", while video showed them executing people during the fire.

[Godzuki]

One of the guy who wrote a book on it and gave testimony to congress was saying the he was making money off of dealing weapons and so he had an inventory.

They did kill ATF agents but it was ruled self defense and they where acquitted in a court of law. ATF had video they could have used to prove they didn't shoot first and that Koresh opened fire on them like they claimed, but the tapes went "missing" not long after the event.

Then they lied over and over again about "not firing a single shot during the tank raid", while video showed them executing people during the fire.


wasn't there a video of the initial serving the warrant when they got shot i think. I remember watching it on the news. I think it was like 3-4 police walking up in vests, then they get fired at? unless i'm remembering something else i swwear i saw footage of them walking up to the compound door to serve the warrant, then they get shot at....it was a long time ago but i don't think my memory here is that off.

i didn't know he was dealing guns. I just hate the i need guns against the government mentality in this country. and then to have a right to cult compounds full of arms is just ridiculous to me. basically they shouldn't have even allowed to get to this point.

[ZenMaster]

wasn't there a video of the initial serving the warrant when they got shot i think. I remember watching it on the news. I think it was like 3-4 police walking up in vests, then they get fired at? unless i'm remembering something else i swwear i saw footage of them walking up to the compound door to serve the warrant, then they get shot at....it was a long time ago but i don't think my memory here is that off.

i didn't know he was dealing guns. I just hate the i need guns against the government mentality in this country. and then to have a right to cult compounds full of arms is just ridiculous to me. basically they shouldn't have even allowed to get to this point.

From what I've seen you're remembering it wrong, there is a photograph of the initial contact that some say is altered so you can't really see Koreshs son standing next to the door(which coincides with news station video of them carrying out a small body not long after the inital contact).
Also if they had the video there is no way them shooting the ATF agents would be ruled self defense.

[Godzuki]

From what I've seen you're remembering it wrong, there is a photograph of the initial contact that some say is altered so you can't really see Koreshs son standing next to the door(which coincides with news station video of them carrying out a small body not long after the inital contact).
Also if they had the video there is no way them shooting the ATF agents would be ruled self defense.


yeah i can't seem to find a video. I swear i have that image in my head memory of 3-4 of them walking up steps to the door and then getting shot at :confusedshrug:

and you're right i guess since there wouldn't be any question as to who shot first controvery if there were proven video.

[ZenMaster]

yeah i can't seem to find a video. I swear i have that image in my head memory of 3-4 of them walking up steps to the door and then getting shot at :confusedshrug:

and you're right i guess since there wouldn't be any question as to who shot first controvery if there were proven video.

Perhaps you've seen it in a reconstructive documentary video and it stuck, it would be a great example of how the propaganda works :)

As for the militia rhetoric I've read different things, but what mostly stuck out was the local sheriff saying they where nice people who didn't give him trouble and that he liked them.

[KevinNYC]

Then they lied over and over again about "not firing a single shot during the tank raid", while video showed them executing people during the fire.

Please do show this video.

The napalm nonsense is bullshit as well.

[KevinNYC]

They did kill ATF agents but it was ruled self defense and they where acquitted in a court of law. ATF had video they could have used to prove they didn't shoot first and that Koresh opened fire on them like they claimed, but the tapes went "missing" not long after the event.

Some Branch Davidians were prosecuted and did go to jail (http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/04/19/six-branch-davidians-due-for-release-13-years-after-waco-inferno/). They were acquitted of murder but convicted of manslaughter or aiding and abetting manslaugther.


The six men went to federal prison for manslaughter, weapons offenses or both in connection with the shootout, which left four federal agents and six Davidians dead.

Once the men are out, they will be on supervised release for three to five years. Among other things, they will be barred from associating with one another.

A seventh Davidian is also still behind bars but is not scheduled for release until next year.....

In 1994 in San Antonio, 11 Davidians went on trial; all were acquitted of murder and conspiracy to commit murder. However, five were convicted of voluntary manslaughter and weapons charges and three were convicted on weapons charges. A 12th Davidian pleaded guilty to a lesser charge and testified against the others; she was sentenced to three years and was released in 1996.

[KevinNYC]

wasn't there a video of the initial serving the warrant when they got shot i think. I remember watching it on the news. I think it was like 3-4 police walking up in vests, then they get fired at? unless i'm remembering something else i swwear i saw footage of them walking up to the compound door to serve the warrant, then they get shot at....it was a long time ago but i don't think my memory here is that off.

i didn't know he was dealing guns. I just hate the i need guns against the government mentality in this country. and then to have a right to cult compounds full of arms is just ridiculous to me. basically they shouldn't have even allowed to get to this point.

One of the Davidians was a registered gun dealer, but they were also arming themselves heavily and stockpiling their own weapons. The ATF interest in them was that they were dealing in illegal guns or modifying guns illegally. They had a survivalist/siege mentality way before this began and that is why they had years of food stored. The Texas Rangers who investigated afterwards found almost 400,000 rounds of ammo.

They were not going to present the warrant, they were going to go in heavy because they knew this group was dangerous. There's video of the cops up on roof trying to enter a second story window and you see at least one getting shot.

One of the Agents on the initial raid, wrote an account of it (http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/waco_raid/index.html)

The operational plan ATF leaders came up with was based on two crucial pieces of intelligence obtained from former cult members.

The first was that each morning most of the men in the compound went to work outside in an area called "the pit," the underground bunker they were constructing on the west side of the main building.

he second was that cult leader David Koresh kept the Branch Davidians' weapons locked up in a second-story room on the east side of the building, next door to his private bedroom.

At the time of the raid, the men were supposed to be on the opposite side of the compound from their weapons, and wouldn't be able to resist. By the time we rolled up in front of the compound and heard the gunshots, we knew there was a problem with the intel.

Of the 76 agents on the ground, only a handful of us had anything more powerful than a 9mm handgun. My job was to slip around the west side of the compound and cover the back with an AR-15 rifle. All I had to do was get past a couple of fences, a section of excavated earth, a buried school bus, and a chicken coop.

I stepped off the trailer into the gunfire and followed the agent in front of me.

Bullets kicked up clods of mud at our feet.

He claims not to have heard the initial shots. Some people theorize that the ATF shot first, not at the compound but at their dogs.

[ZenMaster]

One of the Davidians was a registered gun dealer, but they were also arming themselves heavily and stockpiling their own weapons. The ATF interest in them was that they were dealing in illegal guns or modifying guns illegally. They had a survivalist/siege mentality way before this began and that is why they had years of food stored. The Texas Rangers who investigated afterwards found almost 400,000 rounds of ammo.

They were not going to present the warrant, they were going to go in heavy because they knew this group was dangerous. There's video of the cops up on roof trying to enter a second story window and you see at least one getting shot.

One of the Agents on the initial raid, wrote an account of it (http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/waco_raid/index.html)


He claims not to have heard the initial shots. Some people theorize that the ATF shot first, not at the compound but at their dogs.

IIRC they said they did in fact approach the house yelling warrant and was then shot at. Koresh said they approached the house and shot at him first, ATF could back up all their claims with the video they recorded but instead they threw it away.
Maybe they're telling the truth about that and then lies on other things like: the choppers not being outfitted with guns, not firing a single shot during the during the gas operation and snipers only observing(there where kill counts chalked on the wall at the sniper positions).

Then there's the stupidity of saying that they knew there was a risk of him lighting the fires "if the tanks come in", and then to proceed and go in with tanks on a day with high winds. The positions they poked the holes made the air blow right through the compund as well.

[KevinNYC]

The thing is that the governement agencies screwed up no matter how you look at it.

Either they went in with the intention of raiding the place and killing most of the people(there's video of two agents firing into the part of the building where most of the kids died while the fire was starting there).
Or they completely just completely dropped the ball.
The official story is that they knew he was going to light the place on fire if they went in with tanks, yet they still went in and hoped "the instincts of the mothers" would kick in and they'd come running out the building with their kids.

Fact is the official story is full of holes from beginning to end and it's probably because of a cover up.

If they were intent on raiding the place and killing most of the people inside, why wait 51 days?

If they were intent on raiding the place and killing most of the people inside, why not do it under cover of darkness?

If they were intent on raiding the place and killing most of the people inside, why take several hours to do it? Why does it start at 6 in the morning and the fire not happen until Noon? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege#Chronology_of_events_of_April_19)

The official story is not they knew he was going to light the place on fire. The official story is that that they feared a Jonestown event where there would be a mass suicide and that they could use the tear gas as a way of forcing them out. Afterwards, experts pointed out the FBI completely misjudged who the Davidians were, that they were a different type of cult than Jim Jones' group.

They did get a mass suicide. The surveillance mike they smuggled in captured them talking about spreading fuel throughout the building and the surviving Branch Davidians had accelerants on their shoes. The video of the compound quite clearly shows that the fire broke out at three separate places within 2.5 seconds of each other. It's the same infrared video that Zen claims shows gunshots.

The coverup at Waco was the claim that nothing the government did could have started the fire. That was a lie and it came out in 1999 the government did shoot some pyrotechnic rounds during the last day. However, they were used way before the fire started and all in the same spot.


Allegations that the government started the fire were based largely on an FBI agent's having fired three "pyrotechnic" tear gas rounds, which are delivered with a charge that burns. The Special Counsel concluded that the rounds did not start or contribute to the spread of the fire, based on the finding that the FBI fired the rounds nearly four hours before the fire started, at a concrete construction pit partially filled with water, 75 feet (23 m) away and downwind from the main living quarters of the complex. The Special Counsel noted, by contrast, that recorded interceptions of Branch Davidian conversations included such statements as "David said we have to get the fuel on" and "So we light it first when they come in with the tank right [...] right as they're coming in." Branch Davidians who survived the fire acknowledged that other Branch Davidians started the fire. FBI agents witnessed Branch Davidians pouring fuel and igniting a fire, and noted these observations contemporaneously. Lab analysis found accelerants on the clothing of Branch Davidians, and investigators found deliberately punctured fuel cans and a homemade torch at the site. Based on this evidence and testimony, the Special Counsel concluded that the fire was started by the Branch Davidians.

[KevinNYC]

Even after the discovery of the pyrotechnic rounds and the new investigation, the initial reports of where the fire started stood up.


The arson report identifies three points of origin for the fire. The investigators were able to determine these points 6f origin based on the videotapes of the fire., including the infrared aerial tape, provided by the FBI. The items found at the scene, including the presence of fuel containers in certain locations and the presence of chemical accelerants, confirmed the finding of three separate points of origin.
The report identifies the three points of origin as follows:
-- Point of origin 1 was the second floor, front section of the building, southeast corner.
-- Point of origin 2 was the first floor, mid-section of the building in or near the area identified as the dining room.
-- Point of origin 3 was the first floor, right side (east side) of the building in the area identified as the chapel.
According to the report, the fire started at each point of origin, and intensified, at the following times (all times are Central Time):
12:07:41 -- Incipient fire first observed at point of origin number one.
12:08:49 -- Fire observed at point of origin number two. This fire was already beyond the incipient stage when it was first observed, indicating that it had started some moments earlier.
12:09:30 -- The fire at point of origin number one had increased in intensity, to the point of full room involvement.
12:09:42 -- Flames at point of origin number one were observed venting through windows on the second floor.
12:09:45 -- Fire was visible at point of origin number three. The fire was at the incipient stage when first seen, but it rapidly intensified to the point that the fire had a visible flame extending beyond the room in which it started.
12:10:22 -- Point of origin number three had spread rapidly, and now had fully involved the gymnasium.
12:11:00 -- The fire was spreading rapidly throughout the entire building.
Given this short lapse of time, and the distance between the three separate points of origin, the arson team concluded that the fire could not have been caused at a single point of origin or by accident.

[ZenMaster]

If they were intent on raiding the place and killing most of the people inside, why wait 51 days?

If they were intent on raiding the place and killing most of the people inside, why not do it under cover of darkness?

If they were intent on raiding the place and killing most of the people inside, why take several hours to do it? Why does it start at 6 in the morning and the fire not happen until Noon? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege#Chronology_of_events_of_April_19)

The official story is not they knew he was going to light the place on fire. The official story is that that they feared a Jonestown event where there would be a mass suicide and that they could use the tear gas as a way of forcing them out. Afterwards, experts pointed out the FBI completely misjudged who the Davidians were, that they were a different type of cult than Jim Jones' group.

They did get a mass suicide. The surveillance mike they smuggled in captured them talking about spreading fuel throughout the building and the surviving Branch Davidians had accelerants on their shoes. The video of the compound quite clearly shows that the fire broke out at three separate places within 2.5 seconds of each other. It's the same infrared video that Zen claims shows gunshots.

The coverup at Waco was the claim that nothing the government did could have started the fire. That was a lie and it came out in 1999 the government did shoot some pyrotechnic rounds during the last day. However, they were used way before the fire started and all in the same spot.

They have surveillance audio from inside the house 6 hours before the tanks went in, and there where voices saying "light it if the tanks come in" or to that effect. Yet they proceeded on a day with high winds, check out the flags on the tanks if you doubt that.

My claims of the infared video is from the specialist who presents it in the rules of engagement video. He clearly shows two persons firing from outside the compund and into the part of the building on fire where they claimed the mass suicides happened.
If that guy is not a specialist and they somehow altered the video then I'd obviously change my view.

They could have said that the davidians where shooting from inside and so they fired back, it would have been horrible but plauseable. Instead they're saying they never fired a single shot and that the people killed themselves.

I know you wont watch the guy presenting the infared video and instead tell me something about tinfoil, but I'm okay with it.

[KevinNYC]

They have surveillance audio from inside the house 6 hours before the tanks went in, and there where voices saying "light it if the tanks come in" or to that effect. Yet they proceeded on a day with high winds, check out the flags on the tanks if you doubt that.

My claims of the infared video is from the specialist who presents it in the rules of engagement video. He clearly shows two persons firing from outside the compund and into the part of the building on fire where they claimed the mass suicides happened.
If that guy is not a specialist and they somehow altered the video then I'd obviously change my view.

They could have said that the davidians where shooting from inside and so they fired back, it would have been horrible but plauseable. Instead they're saying they never fired a single shot and that the people killed themselves.

I know you wont watch the guy presenting the infared video and instead tell me something about tinfoil, but I'm okay with it.

The Rules of Engagement Guy had to make an entire other movie after the claims in his movie were debunked by actual tests. It's called the FLIR Project. One of those tests was the by Branch Davidians lawyer. Another was his own test in the FLIR project.

They claimed they only thing that could have caused these short reflections were gunshots. That passive solar reflection off things like glass debris or active reflection off a nearby heat source (like a car exhaust) couldn't cause these images on FLIR. This was pretty conclusively debunked. They found out that the sun reflecting off thing like glass debris DO cause these reflections. I believe the FLIR expert you mention is the one who made these claims. [Yes, Allard is the one who made these claims.]

Futhermore when they did tests with various weapons, they found the reflections from gunshots DID NOT look like these reflections. The gunshots were much much shorter since a shot only lasts a few miliseconds, it can't take up several frames of film at 1/30 of a second per frame. The solar reflections lasted several frames just like the ones seen on the Waco infrared.

The other problem is that in the test shown in FLIR project, you don't just see a heat flash, you see the heat signature of the shooter and the barrel of his gun after firing. All of which you don't see if the original Waco videos.

Also if the FBI was burning up the building on purpose and mowing down people trying to exit why did the survivors live? Why did the FBI give the ones suffering severe burns immediate medical care that saved their lives?

[ZenMaster]

The Rules of Engagement Guy had to make an entire other movie after the claims in his movie were debunked by actual tests. It's called the FLIR Project. One of those tests was the by Branch Davidians lawyer. Another was his own test in the FLIR project.

They claimed they only thing that could have caused these short reflections were gunshots. That passive solar reflection off things like glass debris or active reflection off a nearby heat source (like a car exhaust) couldn't cause these images on FLIR. This was pretty conclusively debunked. They found out that the sun reflecting off thing like glass debris DO cause these reflections. I believe the FLIR expert you mention is the one who made these claims. [Yes, Allard is the one who made these claims.]

Futhermore when they did tests with various weapons, they found the reflections from gunshots DID NOT look like these reflections. The gunshots were much much shorter since a shot only lasts a few miliseconds, it can't take up several frames of film at 1/30 of a second per frame. The solar reflections lasted several frames just like the ones seen on the Waco infrared.

The other problem is that in the test shown in FLIR project, you don't just see a heat flash, you see the heat signature of the shooter and the barrel of his gun after firing. All of which you don't see if the original Waco videos.

Also if the FBI was burning up the building on purpose and mowing down people trying to exit why did the survivors live? Why did the FBI give the ones suffering severe burns immediate medical care that saved their lives?

You are referencing the FLIR project but what you're saying is not the same as concluded in the video, what's up with that?


Futhermore when they did tests with various weapons, they found the reflections from gunshots DID NOT look like these reflections. The gunshots were much much shorter since a shot only lasts a few miliseconds, it can't take up several frames of film at 1/30 of a second per frame. The solar reflections lasted several frames just like the ones seen on the Waco infrared.


Single shots in non dusty environment is what you describe as not fitting the flashes from the video.

Multiple rounds in short burst(common way of shooting with automatic machine guns) and in a dusty environment(high winds with tanks running around) gave flashes that where similar to the ones in the original video and indeed in multiple frames.

I have no idea why you would reference the FLIR project when it ends up concluding that the "Special ouncels Waco re-creation is flawed. The the special councels endeavor was not a viable re-creation of the flash phenomena seen at Mr. Carmel. "

I'd love to see the video on the government tests that backs up their findings and thus debunks the FLIR video, because right now it sounds more like an official test done to fit the rest of the lies like the choppers not having guns mounted on one or more of them.

Also you haven't mentioned my claim that EITHER they did it on purpose OR they just completely dropped the ball and went again their own information(that the FBI said they had of the davidians saying they where going to burn it if the tanks came in). Instead on a day with very high winds they decided to poke some holes and make it EXTREMELY flamable.