why do people conflate assist numbers with making your teammates better?

[STATUTORY]

People often sees a high Assist per Game total and automatically assume that player is "making his teammates better" when in actuality that's a gross simplification and conflation of the two ideas.

assists are mainly rewarded to ball dominant players, players who dribble a lot and play in iso or pick and roll systems. assist numbers are simply a function of how much you dominate the ball more or less. If you are too ball dominant you reduce your teammates to cutters and spot up shooters and minimize their ability to create, which can hurt their game or their development as players.

Look at Lebron, every good/star level player who are not spot up shooters he's had play with has had their stats drastically reduced once they arrived, WADE, BOSH, larry hughes, ricky davis, jamison, shaq, etc. Only Mo really benefitted from Lebron that one year, his stats regressed after that too, because he's ares of liabilities (ball handling, passing, playmaking, were covered up by Lebron.

Lebron make bad teammates a little better but he also reduce great players to mediocre ones.

Here's a Kobe article in which he talks about making teammates better. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...yantchat112310

Quote:
[QUOTE]

[rlsmooth775]

Lebron>>>>Kobe Stop punishing yourself and get some therapy.

[STATUTORY]

Lebron>>>>Kobe Stop punishing yourself and get some therapy.
thread has nothing to do with kobe or lebron

rent free

[Ne 1]

Yeah, I have always considered James' "assists" ala Stephon Marbury-esque or Steve Francis-esque. I mean at their peaks they were what? 9 assists type of guys but you would never say that those 9 assists are similar to a Kidd or a Nash having 9 assists. What I mean is Stephon Marbury (a 7.6 career assist guy) could get you 7-8 assists a game, but he can't run a team the way a true PG can.

Compare him to someone like Nash, who constantly sets up his teammates to make shots that wouldn't otherwise be possible without his slick passing. His assists are more meaningful, because those shots wouldn't exist without his passing skill. LeBron sometimes passes the ball hoping for an assist, but the ball doesn't go in because he passed it to a covered teammate 18 feet away from the basket. He's a slashing point-forward who dominates the ball a lot, and sometimes he passes it, and sometimes a teammate makes a jumpshot after receiving a pass from him. People compare him to Magic, but Magic got more assists finding cutters than finding shooters, he found easy baskets for his teammate. Magic facilitated baskets...he set people up in the post so much. LeBron gets assists off the dribble, it's a lot different.

[STATUTORY]

Yeah, I have always considered James' "assists" ala Stephon Marbury-esque or Steve Francis-esque. I mean at their peaks they were what? 9 assists type of guys but you would never say that those 9 assists are similar to a Kidd or a Nash having 9 assists. What I mean is Stephon Marbury (a 7.6 career assist guy) could get you 7-8 assists a game, but he can't run a team the way a true PG can.

Compare him to someone like Nash, who constantly sets up his teammates to make shots that wouldn't otherwise be possible without his slick passing. His assists are more meaningful, because those shots wouldn't exist without his passing skill. LeBron sometimes passes the ball hoping for an assist, but the ball doesn't go in because he passed it to a covered teammate 18 feet away from the basket. He's a slashing point-forward who dominates the ball a lot, and sometimes he passes it, and sometimes a teammate makes a jumpshot after receiving a pass from him. People compare him to Magic, but Magic got more assists finding cutters than finding shooters, he found easy baskets for his teammate. Magic facilitated baskets...he set people up in the post so much. LeBron gets assists off the dribble, it's a lot different.

this is very much on point. a great passer like nash, kidd, or Magic maximizes the number of scoring opportunities his team has, they create extra scoring opportunities where there may have not existed before with their pinpoint or creative passing.

guys like Lebron, Francis, and Marbury simply monopolizes the assist opportunities already existing in a game. they don't create shots for their teammates that would not have existed otherwise

it's really very selfish extractive style of play

[ralph_i_el]

People often sees a high Assist per Game total and automatically assume that player is "making his teammates better" when in actuality that's a gross simplification and conflation of the two ideas.

assists are mainly rewarded to ball dominant players, players who dribble a lot and play in iso or pick and roll systems. assist numbers are simply a function of how much you dominate the ball more or less. If you are too ball dominant you reduce your teammates to cutters and spot up shooters and minimize their ability to create, which can hurt their game or their development as players.

Look at Lebron, every good/star level player who are not spot up shooters he's had play with has had their stats drastically reduced once they arrived, WADE, BOSH, larry hughes, ricky davis, jamison, shaq, etc. Only Mo really benefitted from Lebron that one year, his stats regressed after that too, because he's ares of liabilities (ball handling, passing, playmaking, were covered up by Lebron.

Lebron make bad teammates a little better but he also reduce great players to mediocre ones.

Here's a Kobe article in which he talks about making teammates better. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...yantchat112310

Quote:


Shannon Brown, Smush Parker, Trevor Ariza, Pau Gasol, Radman, Luke Walton, Kwame, Mihm, etc all players who had their career years under Kobe's tutelage. Making your teammates better is not something that's explicitly captured in the 48 minute box score but something that starts behind the scene, that begins with setting and leading by example. challenging players in practice and instilling a winning culture
Pau ariza and kwame all had better seasons without Kobe...

[GimmeThat]

Because shooting the basketball or going for the easy lay up is the favorite pass teammates enjoy getting.

I mean, what do you mean a player needs to make decisions besides shooting when they catch a ball? Isn't that like the coaches job in practice?

Critical thinking abilities from teammates?


you're crazy to think that makes a teammate better


[1/2 SARCASM]

[SHAQisGOAT]

Great point/argument and I agree with the basis of it but no need make that thread to hate on a certain player (not saying I agree or disagree with the LeBron "stuff" there)...

[3peated]

your argument is true if only 1 person is getting the assist, but if you look at the spurs where everyone is getting them then you are wrong.

[dubeta]

stfu kenneth

[iamgine]

Yeah, I have always considered James' "assists" ala Stephon Marbury-esque or Steve Francis-esque. I mean at their peaks they were what? 9 assists type of guys but you would never say that those 9 assists are similar to a Kidd or a Nash having 9 assists. What I mean is Stephon Marbury (a 7.6 career assist guy) could get you 7-8 assists a game, but he can't run a team the way a true PG can.

Compare him to someone like Nash, who constantly sets up his teammates to make shots that wouldn't otherwise be possible without his slick passing. His assists are more meaningful, because those shots wouldn't exist without his passing skill. LeBron sometimes passes the ball hoping for an assist, but the ball doesn't go in because he passed it to a covered teammate 18 feet away from the basket. He's a slashing point-forward who dominates the ball a lot, and sometimes he passes it, and sometimes a teammate makes a jumpshot after receiving a pass from him. People compare him to Magic, but Magic got more assists finding cutters than finding shooters, he found easy baskets for his teammate. Magic facilitated baskets...he set people up in the post so much. LeBron gets assists off the dribble, it's a lot different.
Lebron's assists are more of a scorer's assists. Like Carmelo's, Kobe's, MJ's, Iverson's assists.

It's different than PG assists, this is true.

Certainly not less valuable though.

[Droid101]

Kobe Bryant Assists are harder to get and end up with scores more often than a regular pass. This is proven.

http://grantland.com/features/how-kobe-bryant-missed-shots-translate-new-nba-statistic-kobe-assist/


But some of Kobe’s misses are even more “effective” than others. So far this season, Kobe has taken 107 close-range shots (within 7.5 feet). He’s made 59 percent of them, which is very good, but what is scary is that of his 44 misses in this zone, the Lakers have rebounded 52 percent of them, and immediately put back 32 percent of them. Breaking it down this way raises provocative questions about how we evaluate shooting in the NBA. Out of 100 close-range Kobe shots, 59 go in and 41 miss. Of those 41 misses, the Lakers grab 21 of them; the defense grabs only 20 of them. This means 80 percent of Kobe’s close-range shots either result in immediate points or a “fresh 24.” Furthermore, out of those 44 misses, 14 will become “put-backs” — so, out of 100 close-range Kobe shots, 59 immediately find the net and 14 more find the net within seconds of being rebounded by a Laker; 73 percent of Kobe’s close-range shot attempts become points for the Lakers within five seconds.

[HurricaneKid]

It shouldn't be about whether the guy makes the shot, it should be about what position your passes put your teammates in. So if your passes lead your teammates to get 55TS%% on shots vs 45TS% on shots that aren't coming from your passes, it should be as a +XX%.

Because if you play hot potato and pass to your teammate with 1 second left in the quarter and he makes a 35 footer it shouldn't benefit you. And if you pass to your teammate who is fouled dunking and goes to the FT line you get nothing.

[STATUTORY]

It shouldn't be about whether the guy makes the shot, it should be about what position your passes put your teammates in. So if your passes lead your teammates to get 55TS%% on shots vs 45TS% on shots that aren't coming from your passes, it should be as a +XX%.

Because if you play hot potato and pass to your teammate with 1 second left in the quarter and he makes a 35 footer it shouldn't benefit you. And if you pass to your teammate who is fouled dunking and goes to the FT line you get nothing.

around these parts we call that the Lebron

[ILLsmak]

Yeah, I have always considered James' "assists" ala Stephon Marbury-esque or Steve Francis-esque. I mean at their peaks they were what? 9 assists type of guys but you would never say that those 9 assists are similar to a Kidd or a Nash having 9 assists. What I mean is Stephon Marbury (a 7.6 career assist guy) could get you 7-8 assists a game, but he can't run a team the way a true PG can.

Compare him to someone like Nash, who constantly sets up his teammates to make shots that wouldn't otherwise be possible without his slick passing. His assists are more meaningful, because those shots wouldn't exist without his passing skill. LeBron sometimes passes the ball hoping for an assist, but the ball doesn't go in because he passed it to a covered teammate 18 feet away from the basket. He's a slashing point-forward who dominates the ball a lot, and sometimes he passes it, and sometimes a teammate makes a jumpshot after receiving a pass from him. People compare him to Magic, but Magic got more assists finding cutters than finding shooters, he found easy baskets for his teammate. Magic facilitated baskets...he set people up in the post so much. LeBron gets assists off the dribble, it's a lot different.

Well, in LeBron's defense, it's different. And it's hard to say which one is 'better.'

Those guys were setting up people for shots in the spots where they wanted it. But, one could argue there was a lot more work done by the scorer, whether positioning or finishing, than with LeBron. With LeBron, it's like "Stand here and you will receive the ball at this point."

That's why while Bron is a great passer, we (or I) know that he's not an all-time thread-the-needle type guy. However, the threat of him scoring makes it so he doesn't need to be. Dudes are always going to be wide open.

So, you take Bosh... who is wet. He gets a reduced role, but great FG%. Switch that around and give LeBron a true iso-touch big man, and he would not play as well.

It really is each side's fault. While a PG like Magic or Nash will do everything they can to make a player comfortable, LeBron won't. It's more of the opposite, they need to adapt to him. Therefore, it IS true that when Bron doesn't play the way he always plays, assuming he is on the floor and touching the ball, he is handicapping his team.

Truthfully, if he was a more reckless and lower percentage shooter, his teams would be better because everyone would be open even more. If Bron passes the ball without getting inside of the 3Pt line, his impact has been nullified.

-Smak

[GimmeThat]

your argument is true if only 1 person is getting the assist, but if you look at the spurs where everyone is getting them then you are wrong.

well, according to 82games.com

Kawhi Leonard and Boris Diaw are the two players on the Spurs who's eFG% at 21+ is actually higher than the 16-20 mark

that tells you something about team play/assists and role of importance on the Spurs.


does Reggie Miller makes his teammates better by getting into open position?

Remember when people thought Anderson Varejao was overpaid?

[STATUTORY]

Because shooting the basketball or going for the easy lay up is the favorite pass teammates enjoy getting.

I mean, what do you mean a player needs to make decisions besides shooting when they catch a ball? Isn't that like the coaches job in practice?

Critical thinking abilities from teammates?


you're crazy to think that makes a teammate better


[1/2 SARCASM]

the point is. because of the nature of basketball, especially in regular season, every game there will be a number of opportunities for easy baskets: a shooter left open, a good cut, a fastbreak etc, just because of defensive lapses or good offense.

With a coherent team, those opportunities are scoring and assist opportunities. Someone on the team will be making a pass and the recipient of the pass will score.

It really does not matter for the success of the team who is making that pass because there's no special talent required for those plays. that is really a team assist, or an assist that happens naturally in the flow of the game.

Because a guy like Lebron dominates the rock for 40+ mins a game, he's getting credited most of those assists but if someone else was dribbling he would also get the assist because it takes no special talent to make those passes.

There's no value to those assists, that's why APG needs to be contexualized.

[knicksman]

making your teammates is training your teammates and not how many assists. Its what jordan did to pippen. He pushed him hard. And its also the ability to coexist. Meaning sacrificing stats to fit another players game. Like jordan sacrificing his apg for pippen. Im sure pippen wouldnt be even an allstar playing with bran.