Windhorst: Cavs Prepared To Offer Hayward Max

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Brian Windhorst @WindhorstESPN

[navy]

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]Brian Windhorst @WindhorstESPN

[Mure]

What...:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[PacerRaptor]

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]Brian Windhorst @WindhorstESPN

[Derka]

What's the max he can get?

[hawksdogsbraves]

Surely Cleveland isn't this stupid :facepalm

[D-Rose]

What's the max he can get?
The 1st deal max is something like $15 mill I think.

Utah has said they will match the max...

[Sakkreth]

I like Hayward. But max ? Ohh cmon...

[Derka]

The 1st deal max is something like $15 mill I think.

Utah has said they will match the max...

Good grief, Charlie Brown. Cleveland :facepalm

[blablabla]

What's the max he can get?
i guess rookie max which starts at about 13,5 i think

[ZHAKIDD532]

Wow...I like him as a player, but wow...

[Uncle Drew]

Jazz will match anyway..

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zFi8siNt68g/U6tdLp7-aCI/AAAAAAAAFMw/5yIhkPAfDMI/s800/Pauk.jpg

[veilside23]

I want gasol on this team ... they would be a top 3 team in the east with this lineup

irving
waiters
wiggins / bennett
thompson/ bennett
gasol/ varejao

[navy]

I want gasol on this team ... they would be a top 3 team in the east with this lineup


:roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.trbimg.com/img-524caf67/turbine/sfl-heat-training-camp-20131001-029/920

[FatComputerNerd]

Do not want.

We need to develop Zeller.

[Duggrr]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zFi8siNt68g/U6tdLp7-aCI/AAAAAAAAFMw/5yIhkPAfDMI/s800/Pauk.jpg
:oldlol:

[FatComputerNerd]

Is Hawes coming back?

[toneloc103]

Max is waaaaaay too much to offer him.. smh...:facepalm

[tmacattack33]

I don't believe it for a second bro.

That'd be almost double what he should be making.

[AboutBuckets]

If Hayward gets a max deal then that screws over owners across the league. The market dictates what players are worth; if Hayward gets the max, guys like Stephenson etc. will also theoretically be max players, and the pay scale will be completely out of whack.

Cavs could just be trolling since Utah said they'd match a max offer, Cleveland's gonna force Utah to cripple itself with a huge shitty long term contract :roll:

[D-FENS]

Wiggins, Hayward, Irving and Waiters off the bench? Very impressive outside line-up.

Shooting, passing, defense, each guy can do different things. Maybe they're planning on swapping Wiggins for Love?

[Done_And_Done]

What's with teams being so ready & willing to throw the farm at this kid. He's a nice piece but not nice enough to warrant a max payday. It's madness...

[Levity]

Is Hawes coming back?

nah. i think he'll sign with POR

[Smook A.]

Whoa Whoa... THE MAX?

What the hell are the Cavs thinking. He's a good player but come the f*ck on... that's too much.

[Uncle Drew]

Utah Jazz restricted free agent Gordon Hayward is meeting with Cleveland Cavaliers officials in Ohio today, and a lucrative, multi-year offer sheet is expected to be forthcoming, league sources told Yahoo Sports.

Hayward is meeting with the front office and coaching staff today, but owner Dan Gilbert isn't expected to be part of the presentation, league sources told Yahoo Sports.

Hayward, 24, could sign an offer sheet with the Cavaliers when the free-agent moratorium is lifted July 10, and league rules would give Utah three days to make a decision on matching the deal. The Jazz and Cavaliers could also negotiate a sign-and-trade agreement.

Utah had contract extension talks with Hayward in October that ultimately ended without an agreement. Jazz officials have maintained that they value Hayward, the No. 9 overall pick in the 2010 NBA draft, and will match any offer. If the Cavaliers decide to make a max offer of four years, $60-plus million, it will test the Jazz's devotion to Hayward's talents.

Hayward averaged 16.2 points, 5.1 assists and five rebounds last season.

Per Woj.

[ILLsmak]

He's a beast tho. I wish this sort of trollin' was illegal... they think that Utah is gonna match, but watch Utah pull the chair. Either way, it's bad biz.

-Smak

[Derka]

Four years, $60 million is absolutely insane...but the kid's a rock solid idiot not to take it.

This is the kind of shit that's gonna cause owners to whine when the next CBA comes up for talks and just like with the last work stoppage, this will be entirely their own fault.

[-Lebron23-]

The Cavaliers are now trolling other teams, awesome :oldlol:

[russwest0]

Lol what a stupid way to spend money when they have Waiters and Wiggins on the wing already

[Droid101]

Four years, $60 million is absolutely insane...but the kid's a rock solid idiot not to take it.

This is the kind of shit that's gonna cause owners to whine when the next CBA comes up for talks and just like with the last work stoppage, this will be entirely their own fault.
The players will then just point to Bosh and Wade and say "Go after guys who are willing to take less, then."

[hawksdogsbraves]

One of Cleveland/Utah is about to **** itself over for the next 5 years.

[Derka]

The players will then just point to Bosh and Wade and say "Go after guys who are willing to take less, then."
Players would be crazy not to. These owners dig their own graves with this shit.

[D-Rose]

@KBergCBS 7m
If Cavs make max offer to Gordon Hayward, it would be a four-year, $63m deal starting at $14.8m. He made $3.5m last season.

Overpaid, but I think Hayward fits in real nice with the Cavs. I'm guessing they'd trade Dion if this happens and slide Wiggins to the 2.

Can't fault Dan Gilbert, he's willing to spend the money to get better.

Overall, Utah still matches.

[Droid101]

Players would be crazy not to. These owners dig their own graves with this shit.
Either way the next lockout is going to be a huge cluster****.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It would make him the new Joe Johnson. It's overpaying but it's not like he isn't a good player...it's just that giving him the max is slightly stupid.

[roffie]

so what wiggins is playing SG?

[Droid101]

I'd also like to take the time to state that I think restricted free agency is stupid.

[D-Rose]

I'd also like to take the time to state that I think restricted free agency is stupid.
No way, I think it's great for small market teams. It's the closest thing we have to not letting young stars bolt the first chance they get.

[Milbuck]

I still don't understand why Cleveland is trying desperately to slide Wiggins to the 2 when he's nearly 6'9" and they have a very good young SG on the roster..

[WesWelkerACL]

Off topic: How annoying was Brian Windhorst on the espn free agency special last night!?

[Droid101]

No way, I think it's great for small market teams. It's the closest thing we have to not letting young stars bolt the first chance they get.
Meh, just give teams 2 years and 2 Team option years instead of the 2, 1 and restricted. Let everyone be unrestricted. The home team already gets to add on a 5th year to max contracts and larger raises.

Just a personal opinion that I know will never happen. Just irks me when guys like Odom and Gordon plead with their team to not match the offer so they can leave. Cringeworthy.

[Derka]

Off topic: How annoying was Brian Windhorst on the espn free agency special last night!?

Seriously. It looks like speaking is exhausting for him. I dunno if he keeps his eyes mostly shut because he thinks it looks cool or because the act of leaving Lebron's laundry hamper to go out in public is too taxing.

[D-Rose]

Off topic: How annoying was Brian Windhorst on the espn free agency special last night!?
Why don't they put top reporters like Stein and Shelburne on this kind of programming?

Broussard was trash. Tom Penn is a former Front Office exec and ESPN makes him dumb it down so much that it's ridiculous.

Windy was better than those 2 imo. Legler is good analysis.

[NattyPButter]

To many white players on the team already. I don't want the team to be the new Timberwolves. I know the team got a Euroleague coach but damn you don't have to take it to far. Just silly to want to pay a guy max with a EFF of 12.

[DukeDelonte13]

I still don't understand why Cleveland is trying desperately to slide Wiggins to the 2 when he's nearly 6'9" and they have a very good young SG on the roster..


they believe he can achieve greatness as a 2 more so than he can at the 3.

GM said he wants to develop him into a super long hyper athletic 2.

[DukeDelonte13]

Windy was also the guy who said Kyrie wouldn't sign a max deal in Cleveland.

[DMAVS41]

Payback for the Boozer thing?

[-Lebron23-]

Windy was also the guy who said Kyrie wouldn't sign a max deal in Cleveland.
Yeah, why is it that he still wants to break Cavs news? Does he miss covering more than one individual all the damn time?

[navy]

Windy was also the guy who said Kyrie wouldn't sign a max deal in Cleveland.
He said that a while ago to be fair, things change.

[Hotlantadude81]

Very stupid.

[GimmeThat]

this move reminds me a bit similar to the Rockets signing the Asik deal.

it would lock up the core group of roster for good and hand it to the coach really. they won't really have much room to adjust if they make this signing. no picks really coming, no cap space etc.

and I compare it to the Asik deal because i don't know if Haywards put them right as contender, but certainly ECF potentials within the next 2-3 years.

If the Cavs organization look at making such small step to be the right direction in developing its players. Then it's not a bad move.

If Irving is staying for the long haul, I would rather contend, then to not know where the organization is headed.

Because an injury here and there, an expiring situation, or another team just blows up and goes for a clearance sale is not something you can predict. But certainly, might not even nessecarily need the assets to complete the deal.

[El Gato Negro]

if the cavs do this wiggins will be on his rookie contract for haywards entire contract. then when they expire they can decide if hayward is worth keeping. dan gilbert is not afraid to spend money on the luxury tax and they already made kyrie the franchise player . i dont see this as a bad thing if they can pull it off, jazz prolly match tho its not like free agents are lining up for the cavs or jazz.

[D-Rose]

this move reminds me a bit similar to the Rockets signing the Asik deal.

it would lock up the core group of roster for good and hand it to the coach really. they won't really have much room to adjust if they make this signing. no picks really coming, no cap space etc.

and I compare it to the Asik deal because i don't know if Haywards put them right as contender, but certainly ECF potentials within the next 2-3 years.

If the Cavs organization look at making such small step to be the right direction in developing its players. Then it's not a bad move.

If Irving is staying for the long haul, I would rather contend, then to not know where the organization is headed.

Because an injury here and there, an expiring situation, or another team just blows up and goes for a clearance sale is not something you can predict. But certainly, might not even nessecarily need the assets to complete the deal.

Why doesn't Cleveland have their picks going forward?

I still see them moving Waiters for someone (if hayward is signed) unless they can convince him to be a 6th man.

[Xiao Yao You]

The 1st deal max is something like $15 mill I think.

Utah has said they will match the max...

Got to let him go if true. Maybe get some pieces in a sign and trade. Sign a vet to mentor Hood.

[El Gato Negro]

Why doesn't Cleveland have their picks going forward?

I still see them moving Waiters for someone (if hayward is signed) unless they can convince him to be a 6th man.
cleveland has three first round picks next year one from the heat and the other from the grizz. waiters isnt going anywhere gilbert loves him lol.

[kurple]

I actually love this. Think it would be an amazing fit

Sure 15 is overpaying. But it's not crazy

And Utah would match it in a second if they didn't overpay

[GOBB]

Yall are nuts if you think he's worth this. :no:

[NattyPButter]

team needs a big not Hayward. If Dion got traded and they signed Hayward to a max the organization is just ran poorly. You give the max to franchise type players. Not a guy that is 41% FG and 30% from the 3. He could end up being the new Jarret Jack of the team.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Yall are nuts if you think he's worth this. :no:
This. I'd rather give someone like Ariza 8-10 or Shawn Marion. That is if the insist on Wiggins being a 2 guard.

[Meticode]

It's rumored the Jazz has been wanting to offer 4 years for $48 million, but Hayward wants 4 years at $52 million.

[kurple]

Hayward - Irving - Embiid

Would have been the 1st seed in 3 years

[Meticode]

I still don't understand why Cleveland is trying desperately to slide Wiggins to the 2 when he's nearly 6'9" and they have a very good young SG on the roster..
Because he's got the length and height of a SF, but he has the quickness of a SG. I think at this time right now, he's better suited for SG becuase of his size. He's only like 200 pounds. He's going to get bullied by biiger SFs until he puts up at least 10-15 pounds. If you look at his workout videos it looks like he's sub 5% body fat.

In any case I wouldn't be a huge fan of the Hayward signing unless we're looking to get center somehow. Whether that would be trading Varejao/Waiters.

I like Waiters, but if we get Hayward I don't see the use in keeping both players. Hayward has the ability to be a better shooter than Waiters. He struggled last year, but the previous year he shot 45% from the field and like 41% from three. So it's not like he's not capable. I really want them to get a center that plays defense, can block shots and isn't a offensive liability. Maybe they can trade Waiters to Utah for Favors or setup some type of package.

[tontoz]

:facepalm

Seems like the Cavs set the bar for offseason stupidity every summer lately.

[GOBB]

Waiters is gone if Utah doesn't match. No room/time to justify Waiters being a backup. You tied up so much money into Hayward and Irving (again assuming this report is true and Utah does not match) Waiters is a done deal. Someone mentioned this being Iggy part 2 and I may have to agree there.

[NuggetsFan]

This move is ridiculous. It's stuff like this that destroys the market and forces teams to have to overpay guys to get them. There's no reason for Hayward to get the max. Not a single one.

16/5/5 in 36 minutes on a team that won 25 games. Doubtful a serious team wants Haywood to use the ball that much. Had a down year from 3 and has been up and down in his entire career from back there. Every year he's took more shots his efficiency has went down. This year he barely shot 41%.

Hayward is a solid NBA player, great pickup for any team in the league. Paying him the max is laughable.

[toneloc103]

Seriously. It looks like speaking is exhausting for him. I dunno if he keeps his eyes mostly shut because he thinks it looks cool or because the act of leaving Lebron's laundry hamper to go out in public is too taxing.


Hysterical

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I'd take Parsons over Hayward as well.

[GOBB]

I'd take Parsons over Hayward as well.

Easily. Kinda hoping Melo goes to Houston so Sixers can swoop in and toss him an offer sheet.

[Meticode]

Easily. Kinda hoping Melo goes to Houston so Sixers can swoop in and toss him an offer sheet.
They won't. They're in full tank mode next season.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Hope for Cavs fans:

Sam Amico @SamAmicoFSO

[BigTicket]

I really hope this is not true, Hayward isn't worth anywhere near a max deal. He should be an $8M a year kind of guy, maybe $10M at the most.

[DMV2]

Easily. Kinda hoping Melo goes to Houston so Sixers can swoop in and toss him an offer sheet.
Really? :biggums: Hayward actually plays defense.

[russwest0]

I still don't understand why Cleveland is trying desperately to slide Wiggins to the 2 when he's nearly 6'9" and they have a very good young SG on the roster..

If you watched him in College play next to 6'6 guys or whatever he really didn't look much taller than them if taller than them at all. His current height is listed as what, 6'8 in shoes? I wouldn't be surprised if he's like 6'6.5" without shoes.

[BlackVVaves]

Payback for the Boozer thing?

How does no one see this?

The thing is, the joke will be on the Cavs if they offer that albatross contract and Utah pulls a Knicks with Landry Fields and says "matter fact, you can have him."

[GOBB]

They won't. They're in full tank mode next season.

How do you know they won't? And getting Parsons doesn't mean we will make the playoffs either. And tanking for who? Way too premature to assume Sixers would not target a young free agent especially one Hinkie drafted. :no:

[El Gato Negro]

some of you are acting like the cavs shouldnt spend there cap space but why would they save it? who are the going to spend it on? gilbert likely sees this as a spend it or lose it situation, he is willing to spend what he needs to keep the guys they drafted by paying the tax so this is likely the last year they would have money to spend. they do have trade assets so if this dosnt happen a trade might be coming. gilbert could try to call the jazzs bluff tho and steal him.

[Carbine]

GoBB is the least informed real fan of a team I've ever seen.

76'ers are in tank mode.

[Meticode]

How do you know they won't? And getting Parsons doesn't mean we will make the playoffs either. And tanking for who? Way too premature to assume Sixers would not target a young free agent especially one Hinkie drafted. :no:
Just my opinion, I think they'll tank. No reason to sign Parsons in that case and take losses away from the team. For who? Who knows. They could trade the pick too if there's nothing in the top 3 of the draft that would work for them. If they got #1 and Okafor is still the projected #1 they could get a decent package for that pick/big-man.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

GoBB is the least informed real fan of a team I've ever seen.

76'ers are in tank mode.
They could still tank if they got Parsons. It's not like he's gonna make THAT much of an impact. Plus he isn't old or anything.

[GOBB]

Really? :biggums: Hayward actually plays defense.

So does Parsons. He's a good on ball defender. He has mental lapses playing off the ball. But dont act like Hayward plays D, Parsons doesn't. Stop. And Parsons a better shooter.

[Xiao Yao You]

some of you are acting like the cavs shouldnt spend there cap space but why would they save it? who are the going to spend it on? gilbert likely sees this as a spend it or lose it situation, he is willing to spend what he needs to keep the guys they drafted by paying the tax so this is likely the last year they would have money to spend. they do have trade assets so if this dosnt happen a trade might be coming. gilbert could try to call the jazzs bluff tho and steal him.

Steal him for almost 16 million a year? :rolleyes:

[Done_And_Done]

GoBB is the least informed real fan of a team I've ever seen.

76'ers are in tank mode.

I think he's just speaking through the lens of a fan who is tired of seeing his team get washed. No shame in hoping I suppose. With the said, I don't think another year of sub mediocrity could do their franchise harm. Acquire one more stellar draft stud and then supplement the shit out of them...

[GOBB]

Just my opinion, I think they'll tank. No reason to sign Parsons in that case and take losses away from the team. For who? Who knows. They could trade the pick too if there's nothing in the top 3 of the draft that would work for them. If they got #1 and Okafor is still the projected #1 they could get a decent package for that pick/big-man.

Chandler Parsons doesn't impact the Sixers significantly in the win-loss column. We're not signing Lebron James here man. Sixers will still be a lottery team with Parsons. We won't be nearly as bad as last season. Now THAT was tanking. With the intentions of landing a Wiggins, Parker or Embiid. 2014 draft class was more hyped up than 2015.

Noel, Embiid, Okafor? Starting 5 going to be all big men huh. :roll:

[bagelred]

Gordon Hayward equal to Lebron James...both getting the max.

[Done_And_Done]

some of you are acting like the cavs shouldnt spend there cap space but why would they save it? who are the going to spend it on? gilbert likely sees this as a spend it or lose it situation, he is willing to spend what he needs to keep the guys they drafted by paying the tax so this is likely the last year they would have money to spend. they do have trade assets so if this dosnt happen a trade might be coming. gilbert could try to call the jazzs bluff tho and steal him.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should my man. Think long term...

[El Gato Negro]

ESPN Stats & Info‏@ESPNStatsInfo

[RoundMoundOfReb]

some of you are acting like the cavs shouldnt spend there cap space but why would they save it? who are the going to spend it on? gilbert likely sees this as a spend it or lose it situation, he is willing to spend what he needs to keep the guys they drafted by paying the tax so this is likely the last year they would have money to spend. they do have trade assets so if this dosnt happen a trade might be coming. gilbert could try to call the jazzs bluff tho and steal him.
This might sound absurd but they could spend that cap space on other players..

[El Gato Negro]

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should my man. Think long term...
its only 4 years like i said wiggins will be on his rookie contract the entire time :confusedshrug:

[GOBB]

I think he's just speaking through the lens of a fan who is tired of seeing his team get washed. No shame in hoping I suppose. With the said, I don't think another year of sub mediocrity could do their franchise harm. Acquire one more stellar draft stud and then supplement the shit out of them...

My Sixers will be in the lottery. With or without Parsons. No question about it. Sixers will not make the playoffs. So I'm lost at what Fagbine is speaking on.

Tanking to me is what Sixers did last season. 19 wins, two first rd picks in a hyped up draft class that was labelled deep. With elite prospects in Wiggins, Parker, Embiid.

I don't consider not being a playoff team next season, tanking. Do you?

[Done_And_Done]

Gordon Hayward equal to Lebron James...both getting the max.

NBA economics =

http://i.imgur.com/vj1IG.gif

[El Gato Negro]

This might sound absurd but they could spend that cap space on other players..
they could but who, after this year kyries contract kicks in and they lose the cap space. spend now or lose it :confusedshrug:

[GOBB]

[QUOTE=El Gato Negro]ESPN Stats & Info‏@ESPNStatsInfo

[navy]

some of you are acting like the cavs shouldnt spend there cap space but why would they save it? who are the going to spend it on? gilbert likely sees this as a spend it or lose it situation, he is willing to spend what he needs to keep the guys they drafted by paying the tax so this is likely the last year they would have money to spend. they do have trade assets so if this dosnt happen a trade might be coming. gilbert could try to call the jazzs bluff tho and steal him.
How about save it then spend it later? :oldlol:

[Meticode]

Gordon Hayward equal to Lebron James...both getting the max.
Not the same amount of money though.

[El Gato Negro]

Bron, Durant, Westbrook actually impact their teams. Perspective, lets keep it in. Otay?
point is people are underrating this kid, im also thinking the cavs offer more like 13 mill a year might be enough to get him from the jazz.

[Meticode]

Bron, Durant, Westbrook actually impact their teams. Perspective, lets keep it in. Otay?
Well, at least your admit Carter-Williams doesn't.

[El Gato Negro]

How about save it then spend it later? :oldlol:
as i already pointed out after this year they lose it :facepalm

[RoundMoundOfReb]

[QUOTE=El Gato Negro]ESPN Stats & Info‏@ESPNStatsInfo

[Done_And_Done]

My Sixers will be in the lottery. With or without Parsons. No question about it. Sixers will not make the playoffs. So I'm lost at what Fagbine is speaking on.

Tanking to me is what Sixers did last season. 19 wins, two first rd picks in a hyped up draft class that was labelled deep. With elite prospects in Wiggins, Parker, Embiid.

I don't consider not being a playoff team next season, tanking. Do you?

Yeah I see your point. I guess if there's an opening to acquire a quality player that's gunna better your franchise over the long haul, why not jump all over it.

Additionally, I also concur with the notion of CP not propelling you guys into a playoff seed. You'll be immediately better, no doubt, but as it stands, you're still working with a roster that's destined for the lottery.

I guess some just view these situations as a tank big or don't tank at all type deal, when in fact you can tinker for improvements and still suck lol

[Uncle Drew]

How about save it then spend it later? :oldlol:
They made a smiley for posts like these: :facepalm

[bagelred]

Not the same amount of money though.

I know...trying to make a point. We need to stop using the term "getting the max money." Means nothing. Max money is different for every player.

[Meticode]

Chandler Parsons doesn't impact the Sixers significantly in the win-loss column.
When it comes to the draft it does. Just a few wins and losses impact how much of a percentage you have landing the top pick.


We're not signing Lebron James here man. Sixers will still be a lottery team with Parsons. We won't be nearly as bad as last season. Now THAT was tanking. With the intentions of landing a Wiggins, Parker or Embiid. 2014 draft class was more hyped up than 2015.
He's not signing in Philly and Philly's not offering him shit. But yea, I guess you should be hopeful they sign Parsons and suck versus not signing him and still sucking.


Noel, Embiid, Okafor? Starting 5 going to be all big men huh. :roll:
I didn't say draft Okafor, I said trade the #1 pick.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

they could but who, after this year kyries contract kicks in and they lose the cap space. spend now or lose it :confusedshrug:

Wings available right now off the top of my head I'd take over Hayward at 15 mil:

LeBron
Stephenson
Parsons
Ariza
Marion (better value)
Deng (at 10 he's better than Hayward at 15)

Or they could work out a trade.

[navy]

as i already pointed out after this year they lose it :facepalm
I meant the money, not the max. You telling me they cant get better for 15+ million a year? That's two solid players.

[GOBB]

Well, at least your admit Carter-Williams didn't.

Fixed for accuracy.

[Meticode]

I know...trying to make a point. We need to stop using the term "getting the max money." Means nothing. Max money is different for every player.
This is why I keep telling people Deng is going to command around this much money. People keep saying he's going to get around $8-9 million. Clearly these people don't understand how the market works. He turned down an extension with the Bulls before he was traded to Cleveland for 4 years $40 million. Woj reported he thinks Deng will get $10-$12. I honestly think he'll get around $13 myself.

[Done_And_Done]

Okay so I guess it's safe to say that the consensus here is of the belief that maxing Gordon Hayward is absolutely ludicrous right?

[Meticode]

Fixed for accuracy.
Thank you. I appreciate it.

[El Gato Negro]

Wings available right now off the top of my head I'd take over Hayward at 15 mil:

LeBron
Stephenson
Parsons
Ariza
Marion (better value)
Deng (at 10 he's better than Hayward at 15)

Or they could work out a trade.none of those guys are coming to cleveland, last time im going to say this kyries contract basically doubles after this year they wont have cap space when that happens other than to resign people they drafted. its this free agency or trade. next year they wont have this much cap room.

[Carbine]

My Sixers will be in the lottery. With or without Parsons. No question about it. Sixers will not make the playoffs. So I'm lost at what Fagbine is speaking on.

Tanking to me is what Sixers did last season. 19 wins, two first rd picks in a hyped up draft class that was labelled deep. With elite prospects in Wiggins, Parker, Embiid.

I don't consider not being a playoff team next season, tanking. Do you?

The point is why sign the guy to take you from 25 wins to 30+

You're gonna be bad regardless. Without Parsons you maximize your chance at a better asset (draft pick) to help further build your team.

Simple.

[Meticode]

Okay so I guess it's safe to say that the consensus here is of the belief that maxing Gordon Hayward is absolutely ludicrous right?
It's one of those things that was going to happen anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if the other suitors are offering around or near the same amount of money. It's the way the market is and when these types of players come out that you know are going to get overpaid everyone gawks at it and points saying "He shouldn't be overpaid!"

Anyway I'm fine with the signing? Is it overpaying him? Probably by $2-$3 million a year, but value is determined by want in the market, not he player's pure performance. If we do the trade, I hope we can flip Waiters/Varejao for a decent defensive center. As I mentioned I like Favors.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

none of those guys are coming to cleveland, last time im going to say this kyries contract basically doubles after this year they wont have cap space when that happens other than to resign people they drafted. its this free agency or trade. next year they wont have this much cap room.
You know this how? And I only listed wings. I personally would like to see them make a run at a big man.

[El Gato Negro]

I meant the money, not the max. You telling me they cant get better for 15+ million a year? That's two solid players.
sure name me two guys worth that willing to come to cleveland?

[GOBB]

When it comes to the draft it does. Just a few wins and losses impact how much of a percentage you have landing the top pick.


He's not signing in Philly and Philly's not offering him shit. But yea, I guess you should be hopeful they sign Parsons and suck versus not signing him and still sucking.


I didn't say draft Okafor, I said trade the #1 pick.

You're beginning to babble now. Sixers are not playing for the #1 pick in 2015 or top 3. With or without Parsons. Parsons added here could help add a few wins that knock the % of landing a top 3 down sure. But who cares? Sixers will still stink, be a lottery team with or without Parsons. We're rebuilding and adding a young player of Parsons caliber who provides perimeter scoring would be a step in the right direction of rebuilding. Whether Sixers offer him anything? Whether Houston matches? Who knows, its me tossing out the idea that IF Parsons were available with Melo potentially signing there (more speculation on my part). Then Parsons is now left up for grabs and I would love for the Sixers to explore that option.

[El Gato Negro]

You know this how? And I only listed wings. I personally would like to see them make a run at a big man.
like who what big man FA helps the cavs this year? you ignored the important part.

[Meticode]

You're beginning to babble now. Sixers are not playing for the #1 pick in 2015 or top 3. With or without Parsons. Parsons added here could help add a few wins that knock the % of landing a top 3 down sure. But who cares? Sixers will still stink, be a lottery team with or without Parsons. We're rebuilding and adding a young player of Parsons caliber who provides perimeter scoring would be a step in the right direction of rebuilding. Whether Sixers offer him anything? Whether Houston matches? Who knows, its me tossing out the idea that IF Parsons were available with Melo potentially signing there (more speculation on my part). Then Parsons is now left up for grabs and I would love for the Sixers to explore that option.
Fair enough.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

like who what big man FA helps the cavs this year? you ignored the important part.
I'd take Greg Monroe over hayward. I'd take Pau over him too. Also, they could spend that 15 mil on more than 1 player. Hayward just isn't that good.

[Meticode]

sure name me two guys worth that willing to come to cleveland?
You're right though. Players like this don't come to Cleveland and as Jalen Rose stated you either have to draft great players and keep them for a long time, or overpay them to come here.

[GOBB]

The point is why sign the guy to take you from 25 wins to 30+

You're gonna be bad regardless. Without Parsons you maximize your chance at a better asset (draft pick) to help further build your team.

Simple.

Yes, the idea is the Sixers 3 year plan is 3 years of drafting at the top of the lottery. Holy shit you're a genius. :rolleyes:

Why do you talk basketball when you obviously dont follow it as much as you pretend too? Sixers are in position to sign a young player like Parsons who fills a need of a perimeter scorer, is young and could be a nice piece to the puzzle of rebuilding. Parsons does not hurt the Sixers in the win department.

So what we finish the season at 9 instead of bottom 5 with the standings? And oh no oh my gawd :eek: our chances of a top 3 pick just dwindled because of Parsons. Stop it. Your argument sounds silly. If you want to build the Sixers the way you're claiming so be it.

Guess what we may trade for Lin. Oh no, Lin is going to take us from a 25 win team to a 30+ :banghead:


:rolleyes:

[Xiao Yao You]

point is people are underrating this kid, im also thinking the cavs offer more like 13 mill a year might be enough to get him from the jazz.

I would hope they let him go at that ridiculous price unless it is front loaded and they only overpay this season.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

point is people are underrating this kid, im also thinking the cavs offer more like 13 mill a year might be enough to get him from the jazz.
No. He's become overrated. He's like a 14/4/4 guy on a good team.

[Meticode]

No. He's become overrated. He's like a 14/4/4 guy on a good team.
I'll be happy with that. :lol

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Also, how do the cavs "lose" their cap space? According to ********* they only got Irving, Jack, Thompson and probably Waiters under contract for 2016. Maybe somebody with more knowledge of their cap situation can clarify this?

[KNOW1EDGE]

He is a 3rd or 4th option on a championship caliber team.

Cleveland is a joke.

[bdreason]

15m per year for Hayward?


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

He is a role player on a championship caliber team.

Cleveland is a joke.
Fixed.

[Meticode]

Give him $20 million just so people here can bitch harder please.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Also, how do the cavs "lose" their cap space? According to ********* they only got Irving, Jack, Thompson and probably Waiters under contract for 2016. Maybe somebody with more knowledge of their cap situation can clarify this?

Well they'll have Wiggins, Zeller, and Bennett too, plus Kyrie's contract should tick up I think?

Then with whoever they bring in as a FA.

So they'll still have quite a bit of money, mainly because Varejao has $10 mil coming off the books. If they give Hayward or somebody else ~$14 mil or so, they won't have that much money to spend, but I don't think they'll quite be capped out. If they can find a way to dump Jack's inflated contract they'll have even more.

[Sakkreth]

I'll be happy with that. :lol

You mean "on the good team" part right ? :D

[Meticode]

You mean "on the good team" part right ? :D
Of course. Glad we're on the same page. :rockon:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Well they'll have Wiggins, Zeller, and Bennett too, plus Kyrie's contract should tick up I think?

Then with whoever they bring in as a FA.

So they'll still have quite a bit of money, mainly because Varejao has $10 mil coming off the books. If they give Hayward or somebody else ~$14 mil or so, they won't have that much money to spend, but I don't think they'll quite be capped out. If they can find a way to dump Jack's inflated contract they'll have even more.
Those 2 are team options so they aren't guaranteed. So is Waiters, but it's almost 100% that they pick it up so i listed him.

And yeah if I were them I wouldn't spend 15 mil of my cap on Hayward.

[navy]

Give him $20 million just so people here can bitch harder please.
If by bitch you mean laugh? Sure. :oldlol:

[Meticode]

If by bitch you mean laugh? Sure. :oldlol:
Yes, I would love that. So you guys can get entertained. I'd love it so much. :roll:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Give him $20 million just so people here can bitch harder please.
You're acting like people really care if the Cavs overpay mediocre players. I'd probably just laugh at them for doing it.

[Meticode]

You're acting like people really care if the Cavs overpay mediocre players
If you don't care why are you posting your opinions on it in this thread?

[Threethrows]

Cavs front office and ownership are the biggest morons in the league. Why would they offer Hayward a max? WHY WOULD ANYONE!?

This franchise has had it's hand held for years and still finds ways to ruin everything. :facepalm

I feel for the fans.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

If you don't care why are you posting your opinions on it in this thread?
Let me rephrase: I do care from a "how ridiculously stupid are the cavs for considering offering this contract" or a "if i were a cavs fan I would be pissed" point of view but I, personally, wouldn't be upset if they did in fact signed him to that ridiculous contract...

[Meticode]

:oldlol: I've been sending Tweets to Cavs GM David Griffin and owner Dan Gilbert. Maybe I'll get a knee jerk reaction out of Gilbert. He likes to reply to certain fans sometimes when they push the right buttons...


@dg_riff @cavsdan Hayward for all that money? I hope you're looking to trade for a defensive big-man later on? Derrick Favors?


Just so you know, 95% of http://InsideHoops.com thinks you are severely overpaying Hayward if the numbers are right...


@cavsdan @dg_riff Waiters who put up almost similiar numbers to Hayward per 36 minutes probably thinking #FML.

[Meticode]

Let me rephrase: I do care from a "how ridiculously stupid are the cavs for considering offering this contract" or a "if i were a cavs fan I would be pissed" point of view but I, personally, wouldn't be upset if they did in fact signed him to that ridiculous contract...
Cool, thanks for straightening that up. I appreciate your time.

[kurple]

:oldlol: I've been sending Tweets to Cavs GM David Griffin and owner Dan Gilbert. Maybe I'll get a knee jerk reaction out of Gilbert. He likes to reply to certain fans sometimes when they push the right buttons...why would utah trade you favors after you steal hayward away from them?

why not just trade for mcgee? :confusedshrug:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Cool, thanks for straightening that up. I appreciate your time.
:cheers:

[Jameerthefear]

lol shit cavs

[Xiao Yao You]

why would utah trade you favors after you steal hayward away from them?

why not just trade for mcgee? :confusedshrug:

not sure how paying someone twice what they are worth is stealing. They can have him!

[SOD 21]

The ineptitude of the Cleveland Cavaliers knows no bounds. Shaking my head at this absurd offer.

Can they really be stupid enough to pay him nearly $15.5 million per season? That will instantly become one of the worst contracts in the league.

A real albatross around their franchise's neck.

[Cocaine80s]

hope the jazz dont match :lol

cleveland.... what a retarded front office

[Threethrows]

The ineptitude of the Cleveland Cavaliers knows no bounds. Shaking my head at this absurd offer.

Can they really be stupid enough to pay him nearly $15.5 million per season? That will instantly become one of the worst contracts in the league.

A real albatross.

At best he fits in that 10-12m range of SFs. AT BEST. His real worth is more like 7-8m, and that's only if he plays better than last season. I don't know how this guy became so overrated, whether you're watching him play or dissecting his advanced stats there's really nothing special about him... would be one of the worst contracts of all time. If by some miracle he lives up to it I still don't see why you want to take this chance when you just drafted Wiggins and gave Kyrie a max.

[KyrieTheFuture]

lol shit cavs
Don't talk after that hilarious Afflalo trade y'all just pulled.

Also there is literally one tweet saying this and another saying it's greatly over exaggerated and Gilbert isn't even there. Why are people taking this seriously? Oh because hating on the cavs is popular for no real reason.

[NuggetsFan]

not sure how paying someone twice what they are worth is stealing. They can have him!

Exactly. Utah would be dumb to hand him that type of money. Cleveland is just inflating the market and after deals like this it has a domino affect. A negative one.

[NuggetsFan]

Also there is literally one tweet saying this and another saying it's greatly over exaggerated and Gilbert isn't even there. Why are people taking this seriously? Oh because hating on the cavs is popular for no real reason.

I can honestly say I just assumed because the thread had so much activity. This makes way more sense tho, max money for Hayward is pretty laughable so doubtful it actually happens.

[zoom17]

He is a 3rd or 4th option on a championship caliber team.

.

This

[DukeDelonte13]

so did this offer already happen or is this still just a rumor?

[Meticode]

why would utah trade you favors after you steal hayward away from them?

why not just trade for mcgee? :confusedshrug:
I don't ask those questions of why.

[Meticode]

so did this offer already happen or is this still just a rumor?
It hasn't officially happened yet, but it's rumored. Hayward is meeting today with the Cavaliers though. That we know for sure. We'll probably have an idea of what's going on tonight or tomorrow.

[Jameerthefear]

Don't talk after that hilarious Afflalo trade y'all just pulled.

Also there is literally one tweet saying this and another saying it's greatly over exaggerated and Gilbert isn't even there. Why are people taking this seriously? Oh because hating on the cavs is popular for no real reason.
Evan Fournier>>

[jayfan]

It's just a rumor. And the Cavs are dispelling it.


Sam Amico ?@SamAmicoFSO 4m

Told by Cavs source details reported about meeting with Jazz free agent Gordon Hawyard have been "greatly exaggerated."

[1~Gibson~1]

Kyrie, Wiggins, Hayward... cool.

[KNOW1EDGE]

Fixed.

Is there a difference?

Most valuable role players are 4th options

[Droid101]

Evan Fournier>>
:roll: :roll: What a troll.

[BlazerRed]

:roll:

[JohnFreeman]

Power play by Hayward

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Is there a difference?

Most valuable role players are 4th options

Yeah 4th option sounds right.

[longtime lurker]

NBA needs to get rid of restricted free agency it's possibly the most ass concept in the CBA.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

NBA needs to get rid of restricted free agency it's possibly the most ass concept in the CBA.
Of course a Laker fan would say so.

[hawksdogsbraves]

The real loser here is the Jazz, because they're about to overpay big time for an average wing player.

[Xiao Yao You]

The real loser here is the Jazz, because they're about to overpay big time for an average wing player.

let's see what actually happens first

[hawksdogsbraves]

let's see what actually happens first

I'll tell you exactly what's going to happen, the Cavs or another team is going to offer him $13 or $14 mil/yr, which is about $4 mil/yr more than he deserves, and the Jazz are going to match it and lock themselves into another 5 years of mediocrity.

[Meticode]

Reports are that the Cavs are reluctant to offer anything to Hayward because they feel the Jazz would match anything they offer.

[NugzFan]

Another reason why we need a true hard cap

[BlazerRed]

Reports are that the Cavs are reluctant to offer anything to Hayward because they feel the Jazz would match anything they offer.
I don't see why if they really wanted him they wouldn't just give their best offer? If they match it so be it. Nothing to lose.

[Meticode]

I don't see why if they really wanted him they wouldn't just give their best offer? If they match it so be it. Nothing to lose.
Time. Why sit there and negotiation offers with a player when the player''s team can match any offer you make, thus wasting your time even discussing a contract. Might as well spend your energy talking to other players and obtaining them than a dead end.


Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA 1h
Cleveland's belief that Utah will match any Hayward offer sheet is strongly discouraging Cavs from extending one, league sources tell Yahoo.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I don't see why if they really wanted him they wouldn't just give their best offer? If they match it so be it. Nothing to lose.
Maybe they want to work out a trade for him.

[stalkerforlife]

Hayward doesn't deserve the max, but he's a damn good player. Kyrie didn't deserve the max, either. In the NBA today, some teams have to overpay to compete. I would much rather see a team overpay than tank. Tanking is cowardly and ruins the integrity of the game. Teams like Cleveland have to overpay because they don't have a bunch of stars colluding to join forces there.

I like what Cleveland is doing.

[Xiao Yao You]

Reports are that the Cavs are reluctant to offer anything to Hayward because they feel the Jazz would match anything they offer.

Which is exactly why they say they will match any offer. Got to think they learned their lesson with AK.

[hawksdogsbraves]

I'm just not getting the Hayward hype.

16/5/5 on bad percentages and a lot of turnovers?

And how the hell did his 3p% drop from 41% to 30%???

This just isn't a max guy, not even CLOSE. This will be his 5th year in the league, it's not like he's an 18 year old putting up 16/5/5. I love me a good white player as much as the next guy but I don't see it with this one.

[Meticode]

And how the hell did his 3p%
Just answering your question, because I don't feel he's worth the max, but the market determines that...

He had to be the initiator on offense for the Jazz. Same thing happened with Luol Deng, he used to shoot great percentages, but after Rose went down he was the initiator on offense more often and his percentages dipped.

[D-Rose]

I'm just not getting the Hayward hype.

16/5/5 on bad percentages and a lot of turnovers?

And how the hell did his 3p% drop from 41% to 30%???

This just isn't a max guy, not even CLOSE. This will be his 5th year in the league, it's not like he's an 18 year old putting up 16/5/5. I love me a good white player as much as the next guy but I don't see it with this one.
He played on such a horrible team and with a bad coach. His numbers aren't the worst. He had a higher PER than Klay Thompson the past two years.

[Xiao Yao You]

He played on such a horrible team and with a bad coach. His numbers aren't the worst. He had a higher PER than Klay Thompson the past two years.

A bad coach who's teams overachieved. :rolleyes:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

He played on such a horrible team and with a bad coach. His numbers aren't the worst. He had a higher PER than Klay Thompson the past two years.
That's only because he was the first option on offense. Besides, PER undervalues shooting efficiency. You can have a good PER shooting terrible %s

[Meticode]

That's only because he was the first option on offense. Besides, PER undervalues shooting efficiency. You can have a good PER shooting terrible %s
So what you're saying is is that if he's the second or third option on offense his efficiency should increase, but his averages should remain the same? Okay.

[navy]

So what you're saying is is that if he's the second or third option on offense his efficiency should increase, but his averages should remain the same? Okay.
His averages will decrease. His shooting efficiency will only increase if he is playing on a competent team.

Although, since he is young, his averages/efficency could stay the same or get higher as he gets better.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

So what you're saying is is that if he's the second or third option on offense his efficiency should increase, but his averages should remain the same? Okay.
No his efficiency would increase but his raw #s would go down and his PER would go down. No clue how you got what you posted from my post.

[Meticode]

No his efficiency would increase but his raw #s would go down and his PER would go down. No clue how you got what you posted from my post.
Because I'm stupid. Thanks for your honesty.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Because I'm stupid. Thanks for your honesty.
:biggums:

[J Shuttlesworth]

http://i4.minus.com/jbpraNlZ0a0gBa.jpg

[Meticode]

:biggums:
What's up?

[RedBlackAttack]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zFi8siNt68g/U6tdLp7-aCI/AAAAAAAAFMw/5yIhkPAfDMI/s800/Pauk.jpg
:oldlol:

Looks like this isn't happening. I was conflicted on it, tbh.

[DMAVS41]

You don't pay a 16/5/5 inefficient (last year) average defender the max. He's worth right around 9 to 10 million.

[RedBlackAttack]

I don't see why if they really wanted him they wouldn't just give their best offer? If they match it so be it. Nothing to lose.
Plenty to lose. If they give Hayward an offer sheet, that money is locked up until the Jazz decide to match or let him go. They are free to wait until 72 hours after the official signing date (July 10). That means, if they wait it out (which they will), the Cavs would miss out on potentially signing all of the other top FAs.

If they're going to make an offer on Hayward, they should probably wait another week or so. They're still eyeing guys like Parsons and Ariza.

If they really want Hayward, I'm guessing a S&T might be the best way to do it.

[RedBlackAttack]

You don't pay a 16/5/5 inefficient (last year) average defender the max. He's worth right around 9 to 10 million.
His perceived "worth" is pretty much irrelevant. If the market says he is worth $14-15 million a year, that's what he is actually worth.

And, the Cavs could find themselves in a position where, if they don't spend all of this cap money this offseason, it could be lost as they will continue to have to sign all of their guys that are going to be coming off of rookie contracts down the road.

Also, Kyrie's huge contract doesn't start counting against the cap until next offseason. That's going to take a huge bite out of it. So it is more complicated than just what you think a guy is worth. It is about what other options are out there and how Hayward stacks up against them.

When you have a guy like Jodie Meeks getting over $6 million per year, you know that contracts are going to be inflated with this class. If you want a guy, you're going to have to pay him... especially a restricted guy.

And if the Cavs believe Hayward can really help them (he's still very young) in both the short and longterm, and there aren't really any other FAs that strike their fancy, it might make sense to "overpay" for him all things considered.

This will be one of the last offseasons that the Cavs have a ton of cap flexibility. Get the best players you possibly can.

Btw, Hayward looked like one of the better young wings in the league before he was essentially asked to be a first option on a Western Conference team last year. We now know he's not capable of doing that at a high level, but that's not what he'd be doing in Cleveland.

[aboss4real24]

PPL N Here still talkn bout defender this defender dat ... Pleaz stop

THE game bout puttn da ball n da fkn hoop, if u have good team defense u can hide a bad defender,

Y Do you think the best scorers are always the biggest names n superstars?

[DMAVS41]

His perceived "worth" is pretty much irrelevant. If the market says he is worth $14-15 million a year, that's what he is actually worth.

And, the Cavs could find themselves in a position where, if they don't spend all of this cap money this offseason, it could be lost as they will continue to have to sign all of their guys that are going to be coming off of rookie contracts down the road.

Also, Kyrie's huge contract doesn't start counting against the cap until next offseason. That's going to take a huge bite out of it. So it is more complicated than just what you think a guy is worth. It is about what other options are out there and how Hayward stacks up against them.

When you have a guy like Jodie Meeks getting over $6 million per year, you know that contracts are going to be inflated with this class. If you want a guy, you're going to have to pay him... especially a restricted guy.

And if the Cavs believe Hayward can really help them (he's still very young) in both the short and longterm, and there aren't really any other FAs that strike their fancy, it might make sense to "overpay" for him all things considered.

This will be one of the last offseasons that the Cavs have a ton of cap flexibility. Get the best players you possibly can.

Btw, Hayward looked like one of the better young wings in the league before he was essentially asked to be a first option on a Western Conference team last year. We now know he's not capable of doing that at a high level, but that's not what he'd be doing in Cleveland.

Nah...it's not good value. You can talk about the market all you want. This is not a league in which Hayward is currently properly valued at 15 million plus a year.

****ing Monta Ellis, a better player actually, makes a little more than half of that.

I agree that sometimes it's actually smart to pay a guy more than he's actually worth, but not this much.

You just can't pay Hayward 15 or 16 million a year if Kyle Lowry just signed for 12 million a year. Only dumb and desperate teams do that.

[RedBlackAttack]

Nah...it's not good value. You can talk about the market all you want. This is not a league in which Hayward is currently properly valued at 15 million plus a year.

****ing Monta Ellis, a better player actually, makes a little more than half of that.

I agree that sometimes it's actually smart to pay a guy more than he's actually worth, but not this much.

You just can't pay Hayward 15 or 16 million a year if Kyle Lowry just signed for 12 million a year. Only dumb and desperate teams do that.
Lowry will be 29 next year. Hayward is 24.

And, their respective numbers were actually pretty damn similar. Yeah, in general, younger guys will get the bigger deals.

Beyond that, did you get the point about the Cavs' cap space being diminished in the coming years regardless of whether they sign someone expensive this offseason or not? That is going to be a huge factor in any guy they sign going forward. I seriously doubt they want to be left holding a big bag of money, knowing that the league will be snatching it from them next offseason anyway.

I'm looking at Hayward and asking myself if he could help the team. I think he could be a really great fit, actually. He was a >40% three-point shooter before he was asked to carry an offense. No reason for me to believe he couldn't do it as a third option in Cleveland.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

His perceived "worth" is pretty much irrelevant. If the market says he is worth $14-15 million a year, that's what he is actually worth.

Yes except that isn't his market value. Name me one other wing player on Gordon Hayward's level that makes 15 mil and isn't considered overpayed.

Better players than Hayward like Lowry, and Gortat have signed lesser contracts. And players like Lance Stephenson, Trevor Ariza, Luol Deng, Chandler Parsons, Isaiah Thomas who are on a similar level are reported to be available for less.


And, the Cavs could find themselves in a position where, if they don't spend all of this cap money this offseason, it could be lost as they will continue to have to sign all of their guys that are going to be coming off of rookie contracts down the road.

Also, Kyrie's huge contract doesn't start counting against the cap until next offseason. That's going to take a huge bite out of it. So it is more complicated than just what you think a guy is worth. It is about what other options are out there and how Hayward stacks up against them.

And if the Cavs believe Hayward can really help them (he's still very young) in both the short and longterm, and there aren't really any other FAs that strike their fancy, it might make sense to "overpay" for him all things considered.

This will be one of the last offseasons that the Cavs have a ton of cap flexibility. Get the best players you possibly can.

Could you explain this in detail? because according to ********* Cavs only have Irving, Jack, Thompson, Waiters under contract for next year. Zeller, Karasev and Bennett are team options. And realistically they could find a way to dump Jack



When you have a guy like Jodie Meeks getting over $6 million per year, you know that contracts are going to be inflated with this class. If you want a guy, you're going to have to pay him... especially a restricted guy.

Btw, Hayward looked like one of the better young wings in the league before he was essentially asked to be a first option on a Western Conference team last year. We now know he's not capable of doing that at a high level, but that's not what he'd be doing in Cleveland.

Jodie Meeks at 6 is no where close to as bad as Hayward at 15. Hayward is a role player on a title team - same with Meeks. Hayward is better and younger but not 11 mill better.

[DMAVS41]

Lowry will be 29 next year. Hayward is 24.

And, their respective numbers were actually pretty damn similar. Yeah, in general, younger guys will get the bigger deals.

Beyond that, did you get the point about the Cavs' cap space being diminished in the coming years regardless of whether they sign someone expensive this offseason or not? That is going to be a huge factor in any guy they sign going forward. I seriously doubt they want to be left holding a big bag of money, knowing that the league will be snatching it from them next offseason anyway.

I'm looking at Hayward and asking myself if he could help the team. I think he could be a really great fit, actually. He was a >40% three-point shooter before he was asked to carry an offense. No reason for me to believe he couldn't do it as a third option in Cleveland.

You are putting arbitrary restrictions on your team. I'm not advocating they hold onto their money..I'm saying they should spend it better.

Their numbers are also not remotely close.

Lowry was a 18/5/7 57% TS player that plays pretty damn good defense at his position. He did this on a playoff team.

Hayward was a 16/5/5 52% TS player that plays average defense at best. And those numbers came on a poor team.

Age really isn't relevant here. Lowry just turned 28 actually.

You simply don't pay Hayward 3 to 4 million more than Lowry. It's idiotic.

[RedBlackAttack]

Yes except that isn't his market value. Name me one other wing player on Gordon Hayward's level that makes 15 mil and isn't considered overpayed.

Better players than Hayward like Lowry, and Gortat have signed lesser contracts. And players like Lance Stephenson, Trevor Ariza, Luol Deng, Chandler Parsons, Isaiah Thomas who are on a similar level are reported to be available for less.
Gortat and Lowry are both pushing the 30 and they both got pretty damn big contracts. If anything, the numbers they pulled in at their respective ages only proves how expensive this offseason has been for teams in free agency. Gortat was averaging 4 points and 4 rebounds when he was Hayward's age. Lowry was putting up 8 points and 4 assists.

What is the complicated part, here?




Could you explain this in detail? because according to ********* Cavs only have Irving, Jack, Thompson, Waiters under contract for next year. Zeller, Karasev and Bennett are team options. And realistically they could find a way to dump Jack
Yeah, that's this offseason... which is why they're looking to sign someone to a big contract.

Next offseason, things will change dramatically. First of all, as I said, Irving's huge max contract that he just signed doesn't start counting against the cap until next offseason. Technically, he is still on his rookie deal through 2015.

Once that really goes into effect, it is going to take a huge bite out of our cap. Then, there are the other guys we're going to have coming off of their rookie deals next year (Waiters/Thompson). A lot of what they're going to be paid will obviously depend on how they play this year (assuming they're still on the team). Either way, again... another bite out of the cap.

This is the nature of building through the draft. Your window of having money to spend in free agency slowly closes as those guys begin coming off of their rookie deals. It is the reason Harden and Jeff Green eventually had to be traded from OKC. Those decisions were made about contracts first, personnel a distant second.

So, the Cavs are faced with a situation that looks like this... do they go after the players they want this offseason (Hayward has been a target for them for a long time) and use everything they have to get them or listen to the masses and just hold onto their money... which will begin disappearing starting next year?

That's why, if they really think Hayward can help them, they should go after him.



Jodie Meeks at 6 is no where close to as bad as Hayward at 15. Hayward is a role player on a title team - same with Meeks. Hayward is better and younger but not 11 mill better.

Jodi Meeks has had exactly one decent season in his NBA career on a horrendous team, he'll be 27 next year, and he just signed a three year, $19 million contract. Can you imagine someone telling you last year that Jodie Meeks would be getting that kind of contract this offseason? :oldlol:

[RedBlackAttack]

You are putting arbitrary restrictions on your team. I'm not advocating they hold onto their money..I'm saying they should spend it better.

Their numbers are also not remotely close.

Lowry was a 18/5/7 57% TS player that plays pretty damn good defense at his position. He did this on a playoff team.

Hayward was a 16/5/5 52% TS player that plays average defense at best. And those numbers came on a poor team.

Age really isn't relevant here. Lowry just turned 28 actually.

You simply don't pay Hayward 3 to 4 million more than Lowry. It's idiotic.
Age is incredibly relevant. Go tell an NBA GM that "age isn't relevant." You know better than that. It is always going to be harder to sign a young player with potential than a player who has probably maxed out his potential and is pushing 30.

Lowry wasn't putting up anything close to Hayward's numbers when he was his age. Not even in the same stratosphere.

And, you say the Cavs "shouldn't hold onto their money," but "spend it better."

So, who should they sign with all of this money in this FA class? Give me names and what you'd consider good contracts. Look around... this class isn't that great.

[wally_world]

Utah needs to be smart and not match that.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Gortat and Lowry are both pushing the 30 and they both got pretty damn big contracts. If anything, the numbers they pulled in at their respective ages only proves how expensive this offseason has been for teams in free agency. Gortat was averaging 4 points and 4 rebounds when he was Hayward's age. Lowry was putting up 8 points and 4 assists.

What is the complicated part, here?


Okay what about the other guys like Stephenson, Parsons, Thomas? Neither of them are getting max offers.


Yeah, that's this offseason... which is why they're looking to sign someone to a big contract.

Next offseason, things will change dramatically. First of all, as I said, Irving's huge max contract that he just signed doesn't start counting against the cap until next offseason. Technically, he is still on his rookie deal through 2015.

Once that really goes into effect, it is going to take a huge bite out of our cap. Then, there are the other guys we're going to have coming off of their rookie deals next year (Waiters/Thompson). A lot of what they're going to be paid will obviously depend on how they play this year (assuming they're still on the team). Either way, again... another bite out of the cap.

This is the nature of building through the draft. Your window of having money to spend in free agency slowly closes as those guys begin coming off of their rookie deals. It is the reason Harden and Jeff Green eventually had to be traded from OKC. Those decisions were made about contracts first, personnel a distant second.

So, the Cavs are faced with a situation that looks like this... do they go after the players they want this offseason (Hayward has been a target for them for a long time) and use everything they have to get them or listen to the masses and just hold onto their money... which will begin disappearing starting next year?

That's why, if they really think Hayward can help them, they should go after him.
Actually that's next off-season. Like after the 14-15 season.



Jodi Meeks has had exactly one decent season in his NBA career on a horrendous team, he'll be 27 next year, and he just signed a three year, $19 million contract. Can you imagine someone telling you last year that Jodie Meeks would be getting that kind of contract this offseason? :oldlol

It's a slight overpay. He's worth like 5 mil. And no I wouldn't be surprised. I thought he was gonna break out last year. He's nothing special though. Solid role player, 3 pt shooter.

[Meticode]

I don't like the signing unless he's around $10 million, or if we have to overpay him we trade for a center like Favors or someone. One thing is sure, I wouldn't expect Waiters to be here long.

[RedBlackAttack]

I don't like the signing unless he's around $10 million, or if we have to overpay him we trade for a center like Favors or someone. One thing is sure, I wouldn't expect Waiters to be here long.
Do you know who would be happiest about a $10 million offer sheet for Hayward? Not the Cavs and certainly not his agent... the Jazz. We'd be doing them a huge favor. I'm guessing they'll absolutely match anything below $13 million a year.

I don't see this move impacting Waiters either. They play nothing alike and Waiters is a combo guard. Hayward is a SF who can play SG in stretches.

You can't have enough good wings in this league.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Age is incredibly relevant. Go tell an NBA GM that "age isn't relevant." You know better than that. It is always going to be harder to sign a young player with potential than a player who has probably maxed out his potential and is pushing 30.

Lowry wasn't putting up anything close to Hayward's numbers when he was his age. Not even in the same stratosphere.

And, you say the Cavs "shouldn't hold onto their money," but "spend it better."

So, who should they sign with all of this money in this FA class? Give me names.
Again, no other youngish player is getting max offers. Stephenson just turned down a 8.8 mill offer and people are calling it an overpay in that thread. I'd take him over Hayward tbh. Heck even tyreke Evans last year - A guy with a rarer skillset and better production than Hayward (younger as well) didn't get 15 ****ing million last off season.

And once again, they'll have cap space next summer too - they don't have to spend it this year.

[Meticode]

Do you know who would be happiest about a $10 million offer sheet for Hayward? Not the Cavs and certainly not his agent... the Jazz. We'd be doing them a huge favor. I'm guessing they'll absolutely match anything below $13 million a year.

I don't see this move impacting Waiters either. They play nothing alike and Waiters is a combo guard. Hayward is a SF who can play SG in stretches.

You can't have enough good wings in this league.
Doesn't change my opinion. If we get another wing, I think we need to make a move for a defensive-minded big-man. I'm not happy with Varejao/Zeller/Thompson/Bennett up there.

[RedBlackAttack]

Okay what about the other guys like Stephenson, Parsons, Thomas? Neither of them are getting max offers.
We'll see. I think Stephenson and Parsons could conceivably get max offer sheets. As for Thomas, he doesn't belong in this conversation. I'm frankly sick of hearing about that dude. He's getting overrated like crazy these days.



Actually that's next off-season. Like after the 14-15 season.


....that's what i said. Next offseason. Which is the whole point. In other words, the Cavs aren't going to have the kind of space they have right now again in the foreseeable future. That's why they're thinking about throwing around money right now.



It's a slight overpay. He's worth like 5 mil. And no I wouldn't be surprised. I thought he was gonna break out last year. He's nothing special though. Solid role player, 3 pt shooter.
...and I won't be a bit surprised if he goes right back to putting up 8 points on 38% shooting like he did two years ago now that he's been paid.

[RedBlackAttack]

Doesn't change my opinion. If we get another wing, I think we need to make a move for a defensive-minded big-man. I'm not happy with Varejao/Zeller/Thompson/Bennett up there.
I agree, but who? We have to be realistic about who is available, here. This isn't the greatest FA class for defensive bigs.

[Meticode]

I agree, but who? We have to be realistic about who is available, here. This isn't the greatest FA class for defensive bigs.
Via trade. In my mind I have no problem parting ways with Varejao, Thompson, Bennett or Waiters if we were to sign Hayward or a combination of those. Varejao obviously being the most expendable because of his contract, I'd rather keep Thompson, Bennett and Waiters.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

We'll see. I think Stephenson and Parsons could conceivably get max offer sheets. As for Thomas, he doesn't belong in this conversation. I'm frankly sick of hearing about that dude. He's getting overrated like crazy these days.

How is exactly does he not? I'd take Thomas over Lance (but i'd take Parsons over him). Dude put up 20/6 on great %s. He had actual impact as well. Always came across that way in the games that I saw.



....that's what i said. Next offseason. Which is the whole point. In other words, the Cavs aren't going to have the kind of space they have right now again in the foreseeable future. That's why they're thinking about throwing around money right now.
No. I mean they'll have cap space next off-season as well.



...and I won't be a bit surprised if he goes right back to putting up 8 points on 38% shooting like he did two years ago now that he's been paid.

And I won't be surprised if Hayward never gets any better than he is right now. a 3 year 19 mil dollar deal is NOT a franchise crippler.

[RedBlackAttack]

Again, no other youngish player is getting max offers. Stephenson just turned down a 8.8 mill offer and people are calling it an overpay in that thread. I'd take him over Hayward tbh. Heck even tyreke Evans last year - A guy with a rarer skillset and better production than Hayward (younger as well) didn't get 15 ****ing million last off season.

And once again, they'll have cap space next summer too - they don't have to spend it this year.
Kyrie's max deal begins going to effect July 10 of next year. That means it goes against our cap when the FA signing period begins next offseason.

[QUOTE]After locking up their star, the Cavaliers entered the acquisition phase of free agency with more than $15 million of cap room available. Irving

[DMAVS41]

Age is incredibly relevant. Go tell an NBA GM that "age isn't relevant." You know better than that. It is always going to be harder to sign a young player with potential than a player who has probably maxed out his potential and is pushing 30.

Lowry wasn't putting up anything close to Hayward's numbers when he was his age. Not even in the same stratosphere.

And, you say the Cavs "shouldn't hold onto their money," but "spend it better."

So, who should they sign with all of this money in this FA class? Give me names and what you'd consider good contracts. Look around... this class isn't that great.

Age is not relevant here. Lowry is in the heart of his prime. You'd rather have that than Hayward who isn't in his yet. I'm sorry, it's just not a benefit here to get the worse player at a considerably higher price if the reports are accurate.

Stop adding 2 years to Lowry's age. Could you be more agenda driven or biased? The dude just turned 28 like 3 months ago. He is not pushing 30. Lowry's next 4 seasons are likely to be his best 4 season as a pro. He's in the heart of his ****ing prime.

I don't need to give you names. All you need to know is that you aren't getting close to proper value in Hayward if you sign him to 15 plus million a year. Your same line of thinking is what led to the Hornets maxing out Eric Gordon. You really think they aren't kicking themselves for that.

If the option is nothing or Hayward at 15 million per season...the clear answer is nothing....unless you are on the verge of championship contention...which the Cavs are not.

What is the deal with all the arbitrary rules? You dont' have to sign a player. You can make a trade. You can build other ways. The worst franchises do exactly what you are talking about. They overpay players and find ways to rationalize it.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Kyrie's max deal begins going to effect July 10 of next year. That means it goes against our cap when the FA signing period begins next offseason.



http://medinagazette.northcoastnow.com/2014/07/02/cavs-kyrie-irving-agrees-90-million-contract-five-year-extension/


Again, for the 2015 off-season they have:

Irving at 18 mil
Jack at 6.3 (easily dumpable)
Waiters at 6.14
and Thompson at whatever his extension will be (less than 10 mil i'll assume)

Team options on Zeller, bennet, Karasaev

So they'll have tons of cap space.



And, I would be completely shocked if Stephenson signed for $8.8 million a year in this year's market. If that's as high as Bird is willing to go, I won't be surprised if he walks.

However, you can make an offer like that when you have a proven team/franchise. The Cavs don't have that extra incentive for players yet. It's a completely different situation here.
Pelicans didn't have extra incentive as well. They still didn't give Reke 15 mil.

[RedBlackAttack]

How is exactly does he not? I'd take Thomas over Lance (but i'd take Parsons over him). Dude put up 20/6 on great %s. He had actual impact as well. Always came across that way in the games that I saw.
I don't see him sustaining that kind of production and certainly not on a good team. He's tiny (5-foot-9) and pretty one-dimensional. It seems like GMs agree with me. The biggest offer he has gotten is three years, $24 million with the Pistons (reportedly).

When all is said and done, let's compare what IT gets to what Parsons, Stephenson and Hayward get. I will almost guarantee you he's the lowest paid by a fair margin.



No. I mean they'll have cap space next off-season as well.

Not according to what I've read (see post above).



And I won't be surprised if Hayward never gets any better than he is right now. a 3 year 19 mil dollar deal is NOT a franchise crippler.
That's your opinion. Apparently, GMs feel differently.

I will say guys who have shown they can shoot >40% from behind the arc in a good situation, along with averaging 5+ assists and 5+ rebounds per game aren't easy to find. The Cavs really wanted Kyle Korver last offseason and didn't get him.


We'll see what happens. I'm not making a prediction one way or the other. I'm just saying that if the Cavs really think he can help them and he'd be a key member of their longterm core, they should sign him.

What I think about him is beside the point.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I don't see him sustaining that kind of production and certainly not on a good team. He's tiny (5-foot-9) and pretty one-dimensional. It seems like GMs agree with me. The biggest offer he has gotten is three years, $24 million with the Pistons (reportedly).

When all is said and done, let's compare what IT gets to what Parsons, Stephenson and Hayward get. I will almost guarantee you he's the lowest paid by a fair margin.

That's your opinion. Apparently, GMs feel differently.


"GMs agree" and "GMs feel differently" are cop outs. GM's haven't been wrong before? Why do we even have an NBA discussion forum? Especially Cavs management. They definitely haven't earned the right to not be questioned ever again.

As for IT - He won't be putting up 20/6 on a good team but he'd be a hell of a piece to have. He's efficient, he can shoot, pass. I like him as a player a lot. How is he any more 1-dimensional than say Irving? Not that being 1-dimensional is a bad thing....if you're really good at that 1 thing (see Carmelo Anthony).



Not according to what I've read (see post above).

See my post above.



I will say guys who have shown they can shoot >40% from behind the arc in a good situation, along with averaging 5+ assists and 5+ rebounds per game aren't easy to find. The Cavs really wanted Kyle Korver last offseason and didn't get him.

He didn't do those things in the same year. You can't say he was inefficient because of his role but then point to his raw #s and say look how good they are... makes no sense.

[RedBlackAttack]

Again, for the 2015 off-season they have:

Irving at 18 mil
Jack at 6.3 (easily dumpable)
Waiters at 6.14
and Thompson at whatever his extension will be (less than 10 mil i'll assume)

Team options on Zeller, bennet, Karasaev

So they'll have tons of cap space.

Ok, now I understand the confusion.

First, that was before we traded Gee for Brendan Haywood. Have you looked at his contract? He's set to make $10.5+ million next year. The whole reason we made that trade was to use that contract was to essentially have a trade exception to make a big deal next year, but it still counts against the cap for now and whatever trade is made will bring in a high salary player.

Jack isn't going to be so easily dumpable and you're also not factoring in the guys they drafted this year (Wiggins/Harris).

Wiggins' second year will be about $4.8 million. Second round picks are a bit more complicated, but let's throw him a million just for the hell of it. That's just under $6 million.

And, I would expect them to pick up the team options on all of Zeller, Bennett and Karasev. That's just a guess obviously, but an educated one.

And that's not mentioning the rest of the roster which will need filled out. Obviously, we aren't going to go into next year with seven guys on the roster.

Point is, this is as flexible as our cap will be in the foreseeable future.



Pelicans didn't have extra incentive as well. They still didn't give Reke 15 mil.
I like Hayward a lot better than Evans. Just my opinion, obviously, but I've never been a fan of Reke's game. He can't play off the ball. Hayward can.

[bdreason]

I agree, but who? We have to be realistic about who is available, here. This isn't the greatest FA class for defensive bigs.


Cavs should forget about Hayward and go sign Jordan Hill.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Ok, now I understand the confusion.

First, that was before we traded Gee for Brendan Haywood. Have you looked at his contract? He's set to make $10.5+ million next year. The whole reason we made that trade was to use that contract was to essentially have a trade exception to make a big deal next year, but it still counts against the cap for now and whatever trade is made will bring in a high salary player.

Jack isn't going to be so easily dumpable and you're also not factoring in the guys they drafted this year (Wiggins/Harris).

Wiggins' second year will be about $4.8 million. Second round picks are a bit more complicated, but let's throw him a million just for the hell of it. That's just under $6 million.

And, I would expect them to pick up the team options on all of Zeller, Bennett and Karasev. That's just a guess obviously, but an educated one.

And that's not mentioning the rest of the roster which will need filled out. Obviously, we aren't going to go into next year with seven guys on the roster.

Point is, this is as flexible as our cap will be in the foreseeable future.


Haywood's contract according to ********** is 2 million and it's expiring this year. I think he was amnestied from that old 10.5 million dollar deal so the cavs won't be paying that.

Jack after this year will be an expirer (he has a team option in 2016) so he could be moved pretty easily.

Yeah I forgot about Wiggins and the 2nd rounder which will be like 6 mil total.

But still they'll have a lot of cap space.

They'll probably pick up most of those team options - but still they have flexibility. To cripple themselves completely and miss out on next years FA crop would be a bad move IMO.



I like Hayward a lot better than Evans. Just my opinion, obviously, but I've never been a fan of Reke's game. He can't play off the ball. Hayward can.

Depends on my team tbh. Some teams I would take Reke and others Hayward. Point is: They're comparable. In fact, i think 'reke is a bit overpaid too.

[GimmeThat]

Hayward was probably the 1st/2nd option on the Utah Jazz team, with a rookie point guard running the team.

He would probably be the 3rd or 4th option(not counting waiters completely out yet) on the Cavs team.

So, would offering Max to a player who is going to be your 3rd or 4th option a terrible idea?

well, he's only 23, has only been in the league for about 4 years, which means the max dollar he can receive will still be substantially less than others, especially veterans. part of how NBA contracts are constructed.


So you'd have Kyrie as your 1st option. Wiggins as your 2nd option on a rookie contract, then if Waiters comes off the bench or not, him and Hayward will be your 3rd/4th option. And guess what, if the Cavs resign Hawes, it can be a defensive nightmare for your opposing team.


Why do people think Utah Jazz may match a high amount of dollar offer to Hayward?

Burke/Exum Hayward/Favors

not as deep/good as the Cavs right now, which means they can still be looking at another pick in the 10-15 next year.

[RedBlackAttack]

"GMs agree" and "GMs feel differently" are cop outs. GM's haven't been wrong before? Why do we even have an NBA discussion forum? Especially Cavs management. They definitely haven't earned the right to not be questioned ever again.
No, but when we're comparing different players and what their "value" is, it does matter what GMs think. Those are the guys trusted with assessing that value. We can only critique their decisions.

When you have multiple GMs clearly indicating that they believe a guy is worth a certain number, it should give you pause. Look, I haven't watched the Utah Jazz extensively over the last three years. But, the fact that they are so keen on holding onto Hayward (whose game I always liked) regardless of the price tells me something.

They've had a frontrow seat for his growth over his first handful of years in the league. Obviously they're pleased.

For a guy who will be playing next to Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters (presumably), I like the idea of a player who can knock down open spot-up jumpers at a high rate from the wing (he can) and who is an all around asset in other areas (he is). He's a good passer and a good rebounder. Seems like a good teammate.

Fit is also an important aspect here. If this were a ball dominant piece, I would have no interest. As Hayward's usage rate has gone up, his efficiency has dropped. Basically the exact opposite of Tyreke Evans.

That's why I like him. I'm less concerned about the money because I don't see any great alternatives out there.




As for IT - He won't be putting up 20/6 on a good team but he'd be a hell of a piece to have. He's efficient, he can shoot, pass. I like him as a player a lot. How is he any more 1-dimensional than say Irving? Not that being 1-dimensional is a bad thing....if you're really good at that 1 thing (see Carmelo Anthony).
I've said why I think the IT/Irving comparisons are bunk. I'm not going down that road again. IT would be horrendous as a No. 1 option. I can't imagine what he'd look like if he were facing the defensive focus Irving was last year.

Kyrie is not one dimensional, btw. And, he's also got the potential to continue improving. The height difference alone between Kyrie and IT will cost Thomas millions. Teams (rightfully) are not all that keen on giving 5-foot-9 guys bags full of money.



He didn't do those things in the same year. You can't say he was inefficient because of his role but then point to his raw #s and say look how good they are... makes no sense.
He has always been a good rebounder and a good passer. His scoring efficiency decreased as his usage rate increased (ie: his role changed).

Maybe you could say his assist numbers were also inflated due to the usage rate, but a bigger influence on his assists/rebounding was probably the increased minutes. I'm also not ruling out the idea that he's just getting better in those areas. :confusedshrug:

[RedBlackAttack]

Haywood's contract according to ********** is 2 million and it's expiring this year. I think he was amnestied from that old 10.5 million dollar deal so the cavs won't be paying that.
Nah, it has been reported that the whole reason they made the trade was to get that $10.5 million so they could use it as essentially a trade exception next year.


They're on the hook for $2.2 million for a center who missed all of last season with a stress fracture in his left foot, but they'll also have his mammoth $10.5 million nonguaranteed contract for the 2015-16 season to dangle in a trade.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24600238/oh-by-the-way-the-cavs-traded-alonzo-gee-to-charlotte


Jack after this year will be an expirer (he has a team option in 2016) so he could be moved pretty easily.

Yeah I forgot about Wiggins and the 2nd rounder which will be like 6 mil total.

But still they'll have a lot of cap space.

They'll probably pick up most of those team options - but still they have flexibility. To cripple themselves completely and miss out on next years FA crop would be a bad move IMO.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Luckily, the Cavs have actually been really patient over the last few years. They haven't done what Detroit did last year and thrown tons of money at a black hole (Josh Smith), but the difference is that I really think Hayward's game would fit extremely well here.

I'm not even saying I want him for >$10 million... I'm just explaining the rationale. At some point, you're almost forced to cash in the chips you've been accumulating for years. The Cavs are getting to that point.




Depends on my team tbh. Some teams I would take Reke and others Hayward. Point is: They're comparable. In fact, i think 'reke is a bit overpaid too.

I agree he's a bit overpaid. But, I will say this... ball dominant players are a dime a dozen in this league. It is harder to find guys who can contribute at a high level without constantly having to have the ball in their hands. I think Hayward could be that kind of player on a good team.

For me, that's where his value is. It's not like I'm going to be heartbroken if we don't get him. I also expect the Cavs to make a serious run at Chandler Parsons for the same reasons, but I think they feel that they have a better chance with Hayward and they are similar players.

[RedBlackAttack]

Hayward was probably the 1st/2nd option on the Utah Jazz team, with a rookie point guard running the team.

He would probably be the 3rd or 4th option(not counting waiters completely out yet) on the Cavs team.

So, would offering Max to a player who is going to be your 3rd or 4th option a terrible idea?

well, he's only 23, has only been in the league for about 4 years, which means the max dollar he can receive will still be substantially less than others, especially veterans. part of how NBA contracts are constructed.


So you'd have Kyrie as your 1st option. Wiggins as your 2nd option on a rookie contract, then if Waiters comes off the bench or not, him and Hayward will be your 3rd/4th option. And guess what, if the Cavs resign Hawes, it can be a defensive nightmare for your opposing team.


Why do people think Utah Jazz may match a high amount of dollar offer to Hayward?

Burke/Exum Hayward/Favors

not as deep/good as the Cavs right now, which means they can still be looking at another pick in the 10-15 next year.
Good post.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

No, but when we're comparing different players and what their "value" is, it does matter what GMs think. Those are the guys trusted with assessing that value. We can only critique their decisions.

Again, GM's make bad decisions all the time. You were critical of Stan Van Gundy for giving Meeks 19 million/3 like 5 posts ago. And SVG is one of the best minds in Basketball today. Certainly deserving of more respect and benefit of the doubt than Cleveland's management.


When you have multiple GMs clearly indicating that they believe a guy is worth a certain number, it should give you pause. Look, I haven't watched the Utah Jazz extensively over the last three years. But, the fact that they are so keen on holding onto Hayward (whose game I always liked) regardless of the price tells me something.

They've had a frontrow seat for his growth over his first handful of years in the league. Obviously they're pleased.

Only 2 teams so far have been rumored as willing to max out Hayward - Cleveland and Utah. It's not like he's some super hot commodity.

This whole "Utah wants him so he must be good" thing makes no sense. Utah would be idiotic to max him out as well.




For a guy who will be playing next to Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters (presumably), I like the idea of a player who can knock down open spot-up jumpers at a high rate from the wing (he can) and who is an all around asset in other areas (he is). He's a good passer and a good rebounder. Seems like a good teammate.

Fit is also an important aspect here. If this were a ball dominant piece, I would have no interest. As Hayward's usage rate has gone up, his efficiency has dropped. Basically the exact opposite of Tyreke Evans.

I don't hate Hayward's skillset, I like him as a player. He can shoot the 3 he's a solid passer (nothing special), solid rebounder, below average defender.


He isn't awful, but he isn't worth 15 mil either. I can't think of a worse player who isn't considered overpaid making more than him making more than 15 mill (when they signed the deal). I'd be interested to see if you could name one.


That's why I like him. I'm less concerned about the money because I don't see any great alternatives out there.

I'd take Ariza, Stephenson, Parsons over him in a heartbeat among this year's FA wings (ignoring obvious ones like Wade/Melo/James).

And once again, they'll have cap next year. Perhaps they could make a run at Marc Gasol or something.


I've said why I think the IT/Irving comparisons are bunk. I'm not going down that road again. IT would be horrendous as a No. 1 option. I can't imagine what he'd look like if he were facing the defensive focus Irving was last year.

Kyrie is not one dimensional, btw. And, he's also got the potential to continue improving. The height difference alone between Kyrie and IT will cost Thomas millions. Teams (rightfully) are not all that keen on giving 5-foot-9 guys bags full of money.

I don't want to debate Irving vs Thomas, but if Thomas is one-dimensional so is Irving. Irving is not a significantly better passer/playmaker or defender.


He has always been a good rebounder and a good passer. His scoring efficiency decreased as his usage rate increased (ie: his role changed).

Maybe you could say his assist numbers were also inflated due to the usage rate, but a bigger influence on his assists/rebounding was probably the increased minutes. I'm also not ruling out the idea that he's just getting better in those areas. :confusedshrug:

Putting up 16/5/5 on terrible %s as a 1st option is nothing special. You're right that in a reduced 4th option role he would be better but therein lies the problem. A 4th option is not worth 15 million.

[Meticode]

Waiters already retweeting negatively about the Hayward rumors.


Retweeted by Dion Waiters
Brian Hopkins ‏@Brian_R_Hopkins 3h
@SamAmicoFSO Hayward: 16/5/5 at 41% in 36 minutes vs. @dionwaiters3: 16/3/3 at 43% in 29 minutes for Mike Brown. Stick with WAITERS!

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Nah, it has been reported that the whole reason they made the trade was to get that $10.5 million so they could use it as essentially a trade exception next year.



http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24600238/oh-by-the-way-the-cavs-traded-alonzo-gee-to-charlotte

Just checked: Haywood was amnestied in 2012 by the Mavs but the Bobcats (at the time) claimed him for a 2 million dollar bid so I'm pretty sure he gets 2 mil from the Cavs this year BUT has a 10.5 million dollar non-guaranteed next season which would allow the cavs to trade him.

But again, it's not guaranteed so they could elect to cut him to have cap next year. Or sign some FAs then trade Hayward's contract + picks/prospects for some more talent.


I'm not disagreeing with you. Luckily, the Cavs have actually been really patient over the last few years. They haven't done what Detroit did last year and thrown tons of money at a black hole (Josh Smith), but the difference is that I really think Hayward's game would fit extremely well here.

I'm not even saying I want him for >$10 million... I'm just explaining the rationale. At some point, you're almost forced to cash in the chips you've been accumulating for years. The Cavs are getting to that point.

They do at some point...I just don't necessarily agree that 15 mil on Gordon Hayward is the way to go... Hayward would be like the 4th/5th best player on a legit title team..



I agree he's a bit overpaid. But, I will say this... ball dominant players are a dime a dozen in this league. It is harder to find guys who can contribute at a high level without constantly having to have the ball in their hands. I think Hayward could be that kind of player on a good team.

For me, that's where his value is. It's not like I'm going to be heartbroken if we don't get him. I also expect the Cavs to make a serious run at Chandler Parsons for the same reasons, but I think they feel that they have a better chance with Hayward and they are similar players.


Disagree. I don't love Evans but his skillset is rare. Very few wings at his size can handle the ball and do things like he can. Someone who can spot up, play defense and rebound is more common... Not to say one is more valuable than the other...

In fact there are 2-3 wings who can do that in this FA class. Parsons, Ariza, Marion (can't spot up but is an impact player who doesn't need the ball).

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Waiters already retweeting negatively about the Hayward rumors.
Waiters is younger as well. Honestly both players are on a similar tier right now and imagine how absurd it would be to give Waiters 15 mill

[Xiao Yao You]

I don't like the signing unless he's around $10 million, or if we have to overpay him we trade for a center like Favors or someone. One thing is sure, I wouldn't expect Waiters to be here long.

Favors isn't on the trade block. If he was actually offered to the Cavs it was for the top pick not Waiters.


I'm guessing they'll absolutely match anything below $13 million a year.
Let's hope not


Hayward is a SF who can play SG in stretches.

some think he's a better 2

[navy]

Waiters already retweeting negatively about the Hayward rumors.
:oldlol:



I dont know why Cavs fans dont see it. Max contract for a third or fourth option? Terrible deal.

[Xiao Yao You]

Brian Hopkins ‏@Brian_R_Hopkins 3h
@SamAmicoFSO Hayward: 16/5/5 at 41% in 36 minutes vs. @dionwaiters3: 16/3/3 at 43% in 29 minutes for Mike Brown. Stick with WAITERS!

Eastern conference. Is Waiters willing to come off the bench? If they want Wiggins at the 2 that will be his role eventually

[Meticode]

Favors isn't on the trade block. If he was actually offered to the Cavs it was for the top pick not Waiters.
Like I said, someone like Favors.

[Xiao Yao You]

Like I said, someone like Favors.

Tristan Thompson?

[GimmeThat]

Waiters already retweeting negatively about the Hayward rumors.


so where as before, I might understand players react negatively to trade rumors.

but signing rumors?

[RedBlackAttack]

Favors isn't on the trade block. If he was actually offered to the Cavs it was for the top pick not Waiters.

Just out of curiosity, in what world is Derrick Favors worth the No. 1 pick in the 2014 draft? Or any draft for that matter?

He's been in the league four years and just put up 13/9 on one of the worst teams in the league. And, I like Derrick Favors, but can we be a little realistic here?

[andremiller07]

Hayward + Wiggins is a nice combo on the wing that's for sure but not for max that's idiotic.

[Xiao Yao You]

Just out of curiosity, in what world is Derrick Favors worth the No. 1 pick in the 2014 draft? Or any draft for that matter?

He's been in the league four years and just put up 13/9 on one of the worst teams in the league. And, I like Derrick Favors, but can we be a little realistic here?

He was rumored to be part of a trade for the #1

[RedBlackAttack]

He was rumored to be part of a trade for the #1
I know. I had the same reaction when I read the rumor. Although, that rumor was more than just Favors... it was something like Favors, #5 and #12. I still wanted nothing to do with it, tbh, because all of the players projected to go between 4-8 played positions not needed for the Cavs. And I also felt like there was a real dropoff after the third pick this year. The NBA is all about quality, not quantity.

The only way the Cavs were trading down is if Embiid slipped past the Sixers and it turned out he didn't.

Back to the original point, Favors is a nice player, but I'm not sure why Utah wouldn't consider deals for him outside of crazy offers on a No. 1 overall pick. Cavs have lots of young players, future picks and cap space. I'm sure something could get done that didn't include Irving or Wiggins. :confusedshrug:

[El Kabong]

I know. I had the same reaction when I read the rumor. Although, that rumor was more than just Favors... it was something like Favors, #5 and #12. I still wanted nothing to do with it, tbh, because all of the players projected to go between 4-8 played positions not needed for the Cavs. And I also felt like there was a real dropoff after the third pick this year. The NBA is all about quality, not quantity.

The only way the Cavs were trading down is if Embiid slipped past the Sixers and it turned out he didn't.

Back to the original point, Favors is a nice player, but I'm not sure why Utah wouldn't consider deals for him outside of crazy offers on a No. 1 overall pick. Cavs have lots of young players, future picks and cap space. I'm sure something could get done that didn't include Irving or Wiggins. :confusedshrug:
I'm pretty sure that's the max the Jazz were offering and the Cavs wanted that + Alec Burks and a unprotected #1 pick on top.

As for trading Favors, I think they've pretty much in a position where they've said "We've got capspace, we've got alot of young, developing players and we've got future assets (1st from GS and 2nd's from GSx2, Toronto/Boston and Denver), we need a superstar", so trading him for more young players and/or capspace/future picks isn't appealing. Getting a #1 pick and scoring Wiggins or Parker was. I think they're likely stuck in a tough position where what they'd want for Favors is more than anyone would be willing to pay for him. They like him, so they're not looking to give him away, so they'll keep him for now.

[El Gato Negro]

the complete lack of actual basketball knowledge on this forum is staggering.

[DukeDelonte13]

why do people keep acting like the cavs really offered a max contract when this is just a blown out rumor?

[Trentknicks]

why do people keep acting like the cavs really offered a max contract when this is just a blown out rumor?
In all honesty, most people got so butthurt that their team didn't get the no.1 pick and Cleveland did that the general consensus on this board seems to be to trash Cleveland because they got lucky with a lottery ball.