Difference between Jordan and that guy who is 2/5

[JohnMax]

Michael Jordan Full Highlights 1993 Finals G4 vs Suns - 55 Pts. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5JxoAkXeLI)

http://i.imgur.com/VWacAKu.png

[Im so nba'd out]

dont compare him to jordan everyone falls short of jordan.

[LoneyROY7]

You're right, he probably won't chuck up 37 shots and still call his teammates a**holes and pieces of sh*t for not giving him the ball more.

[SouBeachTalents]

Well Jordan never did this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3kKxtSQa-4

[jstern]

Two different types of games. Jordan can create shots at will, Lebron is more of a flow of the offense. He just needs to develop more of a scorers mentality, where he could sustain it when the team really needs it.

[inclinerator]

lol wut that defense was horrendous, kobe could have done the same in that type of defense, lebron doesnt have the jumpshot of those 2 to score that much tho

[NumberSix]

Two different types of games. Jordan can create shots at will, Lebron is more of a flow of the offense. He just needs to develop more of a scorers mentality, where he could sustain it when the team really needs it.LeBron would do if zone defense was illegal.

[juju151111]

LeBron would do if zone defense was illegal.
Go sit your dumbass down.

[livinglegend]

weak era, and
1-9 is worse than 2-5


next

[livinglegend]

Go sit your dumbass down.

LeBron would do if zone defense was illegal. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Thunderfan86]

Dam, MJ was so freaking good. Thunder Dan and KJ couldn't guard him for shit. They never had a chance. :oldlol:

[Collie]

LeBron would do if zone defense was illegal.

As if teams today use zone extensively.

[jstern]

LeBron would do if zone defense was illegal.

I don't think you're really see Jordan's ability to create shots. It's just so phenomenal that it sucks when other people can't see it.

[eeeeeebro]

I blame lebron for sucking as strong as he is he never developed a fade away jump shot..... That's what Jordan does that lebron can't do

[DonDadda59]

Bron stans clinging to that 'zone' shit like Bean fans before them now? :oldlol:

[Marchesk]

dont compare him to jordan everyone falls short of jordan.

And Wilt. We can only hope another one of those two comes around again in our lifetime.

[JohnMax]

Game Finders sorted by field goal attempts

Lebron (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jamesle01&match=game&year_min=&year_max=&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=N&round_id=&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_G=&pos_is_GF=&pos_is_F=&pos_is_FG=&pos_is_FC=&pos_is_C=&pos_is_CF=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=fga)

Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jordami01&match=game&year_min=&year_max=&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=N&round_id=&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_G=&pos_is_GF=&pos_is_F=&pos_is_FG=&pos_is_FC=&pos_is_C=&pos_is_CF=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=fga)

Kobe (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=bryanko01&match=game&year_min=&year_max=&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=N&round_id=&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_G=&pos_is_GF=&pos_is_F=&pos_is_FG=&pos_is_FC=&pos_is_C=&pos_is_CF=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=fga)

Durant (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=duranke01&match=game&year_min=&year_max=&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=N&round_id=&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_G=&pos_is_GF=&pos_is_F=&pos_is_FG=&pos_is_FC=&pos_is_C=&pos_is_CF=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=fga)

[jzek]

How many assists that game?

[pauk]

Man... so insecure...

Jordan sure loved to chuck em up though, thats the main difference between him & Lebron, he was efficient but thats not the point, this is the difference between those two, Lebron could be that type of a shot taker but he has a Pippen responsibility (point-forward) for his team aswell.... The last time Lebron took anywhere near 30+ shots he scored 61 points and in that game his teammates had to beg him to continue shooting.... and his career high was 36 FGA... while Michael Jordan regularly dropped that FGA and much more (no matter how bad he shot), especially in playoffs / finals... MJ was awesome, dominant and efficient... but compared to Lebron he was much more selfish, more comparable offensive mindset to Kobe.... Lebron is more closer to Magic (not entirely, but more closer)....

[Marchesk]

Jordan sure loved to chuck em up though, thats the main difference between him & Lebron. The last time Lebron took anywhere near 30+ shots he scored 61 points....

Was that against the Spurs :confusedshrug:

[Hey Yo]

LOL @ MJ only making 3mil that season.

That's what happens when you sign an 8yr deal.

[G-train]

As if teams today use zone extensively.

All teams play a zoned defense now, all game.

It's not a classic 3-2 or 2-3 or 1-3-1 as such.

It man on man, with weak side help that can stand in they key for 3 seconds, and guard space.

It's a different challenge to Jordan's era, undeniably.

[knicksman]

the true stats value of a player is determined in the playoffs or esp finals and thats when you realize that the gap bet bran and jordan is huge

[Marchesk]

but compared to Lebron he was much more selfish, more comparable offensive mindset to Kobe.... Lebron is more closer to Magic (not entirely, but more closer)....

And Magic is sitting there around 5 or 6 with Bird on the all-time list.

[Beastmode88]

weak era, and
1-9 is worse than 2-5


next

can u explain 2011 finals or are you gonna pull a pauk, wade was a ball hogger?

[pauk]

Was that against the Spurs :confusedshrug:

How would 21 of 37 FGA for Lebron make any difference in that series? 37 FGA means more offensive possessions instead for other guys, the boxscore wouldnt change.... Spurs still win.... the only difference that would make is raise Lebrons PPG and decrease his teammates PPG dramatically.... the outcome of that series wouldnt change....

[Beastmode88]

How would 37 FGA (50+ points) for Lebron make any difference in that series? 37 FGA means more offensive possessions instead for other guys, the boxscore wouldnt change.... Spurs still win.... the only difference that would make is raise Lebrons PPG and decrease his teammates PPG dramatically much further.... the outcome of any game or series wouldnt change....

so you're saying it's cause of lebron's unselfishness he average around 2 points a game in 2011 finals in the 4th quarter? interesting. :rolleyes:

[Marchesk]

How would 37 FGA (50+ points) for Lebron make any difference in that series? 37 FGA means more offensive possessions instead for other guys, the boxscore wouldnt change.... Spurs still win.... the only difference that would make is raise Lebrons PPG and decrease his teammates PPG dramatically much further.... the outcome of any game or series wouldnt change....

Because maybe his teammates couldn't throw the ball in the ocean? You honestly think that if Lebron goes off for 50, it wouldn't be a closer game, given the Heat a chance at stealing one of those they got blown out in? You don't think that might encourage his teammates to do something?

[juju151111]

Man... so insecure...

Jordan sure loved to chuck em up though, thats the main difference between him & Lebron, he was efficient but thats not the point, this is the difference between those two, Lebron could be that type of a shot taker but he has a Pippen responsibility (point-forward) for his team aswell.... The last time Lebron took anywhere near 30+ shots he scored 61 points and in that game his teammates had to beg him to continue shooting.... and his career high was 36 FGA... while Michael Jordan regularly dropped that FGA and much more (no matter how bad he shot), especially in playoffs / finals... MJ was awesome, dominant and efficient... but compared to Lebron he was much more selfish, more comparable offensive mindset to Kobe.... Lebron is more closer to Magic (not entirely, but more closer)....
The Bulls were freaking low on fuel the whole freaking year. Almost all the Bulls had down years except Mj. By the time they reached the finals everybody was completely out of Steen except MJ. Go read up on the 93 season of the Bulls. Mj took that many shots cause his team was playing garbage. Look at the 2 finals before. He avgered his usual 30+ with 6+ asts. Shit in one of the gms vs the Suns Mj scored almost all the 4th Q points

[DonDadda59]

All teams play a zoned defense now, all game.



Utter nonsense.

[Hey Yo]

Because maybe his teammates couldn't throw the ball in the ocean? You honestly think that if Lebron goes off for 50, it wouldn't be a closer game, given the Heat a chance at stealing one of those they got blown out in? You don't think that might encourage his teammates to do something?
Who would pick up LeBron's lack of avg. defense because he would have been using so much energy on the offensive end?

Wade, Beasley??

[Dro]

Man... so insecure...

Jordan sure loved to chuck em up though, thats the main difference between him & Lebron, he was efficient but thats not the point, this is the difference between those two, Lebron could be that type of a shot taker but he has a Pippen responsibility (point-forward) for his team aswell.... The last time Lebron took anywhere near 30+ shots he scored 61 points and in that game his teammates had to beg him to continue shooting.... and his career high was 36 FGA... while Michael Jordan regularly dropped that FGA and much more (no matter how bad he shot), especially in playoffs / finals... MJ was awesome, dominant and efficient... but compared to Lebron he was much more selfish, more comparable offensive mindset to Kobe.... Lebron is more closer to Magic (not entirely, but more closer)....
You make it sound like all Lebron has to do to be on Jordan's level is have the mindset of a scorer......Like its merely HIS decision not to be on Jordan's level because he would rather be more like Magic......

Lets not kid ourselves, 1 game is not enough to assume that if Lebron averaged 37 fga's per game over a season that he would automatically be putting up 50 point games on the regular like Jordan. First of all, it takes talent to even be in a position to launch 37 GOOD fga's per game. You're shooting over double and tripple teams probably half the game. That means you have to consistently make tough shots much easier which Jordan did with his fadeaway and recognizing when he has a mismatch. Jordan is super smart. So is Lebron but Jordan is a different type of smart. Like, you can't make a single mistake against MJ on defense or its a basket. Thats the different between MJ and almost everyone else. Unless he's just off, you're not stopping him.

People make it seem like anybody from Nick Young to Lebron can just get 50 as long as they take 37 fga's and thats just false.

[Marchesk]

Who would pick up LeBron's lack of avg. defense because he would have been using so much energy on the offensive end?

Wade, Beasley??

Good point, but why was MJ able to do that? And why did Lebron, being the super athlete that he is, tire out to such a degree?

Jordan was able to will himself through fatigue. Wilt could play every minute of a season. Lebron is supposed to be in their class of super, once in a generation athletic speciman.

I buy that he did get tired. I wonder why. And what was Spo doing leaving him out there when he was gassed?

[Hey Yo]

Good point, but why was MJ able to do that? And why did Lebron, being the super athlete that he is, tire out to such a degree?

Jordan was able to will himself through fatigue. Wilt could play every minute of a season. Lebron is supposed to be in their class of super, once in a generation athletic speciman.

I buy that he did get tired. I wonder why. And what was Spo doing leaving him out there when he was gassed?
He might have petered out because of carrying the Heat team in the reg and postseason the last 3yrs. Add in the international games over that time and carrying the Cavs for 7 straight seasons and the postseason for them.

[Calabis]

LeBron would do if zone defense was illegal.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/maestros/Politics/Like_a_rock.gif

[Calabis]

Bron stans clinging to that 'zone' shit like Bean fans before them now? :oldlol:

You just posted articles about this shit....yet these mfers can't read and process it.:oldlol:

[Calabis]

You make it sound like all Lebron has to do to be on Jordan's level is have the mindset of a scorer......Like its merely HIS decision not to be on Jordan's level because he would rather be more like Magic......

Lets not kid ourselves, 1 game is not enough to assume that if Lebron averaged 37 fga's per game over a season that he would automatically be putting up 50 point games on the regular like Jordan. First of all, it takes talent to even be in a position to launch 37 GOOD fga's per game. You're shooting over double and tripple teams probably half the game. That means you have to consistently make tough shots much easier which Jordan did with his fadeaway and recognizing when he has a mismatch. Jordan is super smart. So is Lebron but Jordan is a different type of smart. Like, you can't make a single mistake against MJ on defense or its a basket. Thats the different between MJ and almost everyone else. Unless he's just off, you're not stopping him.

People make it seem like anybody from Nick Young to Lebron can just get 50 as long as they take 37 fga's and thats just false.

:applause:

Ignored post of the night

[DonDadda59]

You just posted articles about this shit....yet these mfers can't read and process it.:oldlol:

Every few months the kids need a refresher course. I found a ton of articles from the 80s-mid 90s where zone is discussed by coaches (complaining about the league not calling violations), refs, players, etc. The Lakers, Knicks, Jazz, Sonics, and even the Bulls in the early 90s were teams that were known to play zone extensively.

But some kid who started watching ball last year knows better. :lol

F*ck it, I'll make a new thread in a few minutes. Need to find the links.

[dubeta]

Jordan was an inefficient chucker like kobe in the second half of his career, you cant compare him to an efficient beast like Bran :no:

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan was an inefficient chucker like kobe in the second half of his career, you cant compare him to an efficient beast like Bran :no:

Besides his rather brief season returning from baseball, Jordan never shot lower than 47% in his entire tenure with the Bulls. Kobe's NEVER shot higher than that in any season in his career

[G-train]

Utter nonsense.

I didn't say zone. I said 'zoned'.
Get your facts straight.

[DonDadda59]

I didn't say zone. I said 'zoned'.
Get your facts straight.

Yeah, maybe you can help me out with the facts straightening thing. Pray tell- what is a 'zoned defense'.

Can't wait to hear this one.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Whats the point of this video? Everyone knows career wise Jordan is miles ahead of Lebron, no ****ing shit

Impact wise its pretty dam close, but impossible to objectively say who is better simply due to too many differences between the eras

[G-train]

Yeah, maybe you can help me out with the facts straightening thing. Pray tell- what is a 'zoned defense'.

Can't wait to hear this one.

I made it up.

[DonDadda59]

I made it up.

Honesty is the best policy. :applause:

[G-train]

Honesty is the best policy. :applause:

Only because there isn't a word for it.

It's just defence now.

[DonDadda59]

Only because there isn't a word for it.

It's just defence now.

Indeed. Defence now.

How's about I buy you a zoned sandwich?

[Ne 1]

Besides his rather brief season returning from baseball, Jordan never shot lower than 47% in his entire tenure with the Bulls. Kobe's NEVER shot higher than that in any season in his career
Technically what you said is correct (besides 2002 and 2003, he shot 42 and 44%) but you have to put things into context. It should be noted that in the 1980s and 1990s that everyone shot a higher FG%


Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, LeBron was the first perimeter player to average 25+ ppg on 50+%

Reggie Miller who was a jump shoter 98% of the time had 4 seasons shooting 50 FG%.

Drazen Petrovic had 2 seasons.

Jeff Hornacek had 5 seasons.

Even Ricky Pierce had 6 seasons shooting over 50 FG% from the field in the 80's/90s.

Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of other guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki Vandeweghe, Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King, Jordan, Bird, Gervin, Worthy, Stockton, Johnson, Dr. J, Thompson, Kelly Tripucka and a couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid-late 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap) Now if you compare that to the last 15 years, it has been a rarity for a high scoring perimeter player to shoot 50+%. This isn't meant to belittle Jordan or any of the other players I named at all, but it was a different era and the fact of that matter is that the 80s/early 90s was a more wide open game with a lot less defense.

Purvis Short was putting up 26 ppg on near 50%, and I'm to think Kobe is going to have problems shooting a higher percentage than his usual 45-47% average in that era? Especially with him getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.

[SouBeachTalents]

Technically what you said is correct (besides 2002 and 2003, he shot 42 and 44%) but you have to put things into context. It should be noted that in the 1980s and 1990s that everyone shot a higher FG%


Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, LeBron was the first perimeter player to average 25+ ppg on 50+%

Reggie Miller who was a jump shoter 98% of the time had 4 seasons shooting 50 FG%.

Drazen Petrovic had 2 seasons.

Jeff Hornacek had 5 seasons.

Even Ricky Pierce had 6 seasons shooting over 50 FG% from the field in the 80's/90s.

Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of other guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki Vandeweghe, Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King, Jordan, Bird, Gervin, Worthy, Stockton, Johnson, Dr. J, Thompson, Kelly Tripucka and a couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid-late 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap) Now if you compare that to the last 15 years, it has been a rarity for a high scoring perimeter player to shoot 50+%. This isn't meant to belittle Jordan or any of the other players I named at all, but it was a different era and the fact of that matter is that the 80s/early 90s was a more wide open game with a lot less defense.

Purvis Short was putting up 26 ppg on near 50%, and I'm to think Kobe is going to have problems shooting a higher percentage than his usual 45-47% average in that era? Especially with him getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.

Not sure which year you're referring to for LeBron, but Wade accomplished that in 2011

[stalkerforlife]

Michael Jordan Full Highlights 1993 Finals G4 vs Suns - 55 Pts. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5JxoAkXeLI)

http://i.imgur.com/VWacAKu.png

My goodness.

:applause:

[Paul George 24]

Only because there isn't a word for it.

It's just defence now.

LEBRON PLAYS AGAINST WEAK CENTER :banana:

[sdot_thadon]

So, the point of this thread was exactly what? As a fan of Mj growing up in that era this is nothing new. A few talking points for thread purposes though:

1. Mj shot creation was always great because he didn't waste motion or moves just for show. Economical movement is how the tv guys described it if irc.
2. Off ball game was superb as we should all know.
3. Used the off hand to ward off defenders quite often just in that small clip.
4. Defense was horrific. How would lebron ever score against that jeez.....
5. Fouls were soft. Again how would lebron deal with the brutal physicality of the Phoenix Suns?

[houston]

everything gets compared to Jordan:oldlol:

[Asukal]

Jordan was an inefficient chucker like kobe in the second half of his career, you cant compare him to an efficient beast like Bran :no:

2/5 dat efficiency...:rolleyes:

[BoutPractice]

So, the point of this thread was exactly what? As a fan of Mj growing up in that era this is nothing new. A few talking points for thread purposes though:

1. Mj shot creation was always great because he didn't waste motion or moves just for show. Economical movement is how the tv guys described it if irc.
2. Off ball game was superb as we should all know.
3. Used the off hand to ward off defenders quite often just in that small clip.
4. Defense was horrific. How would lebron ever score against that jeez.....
5. Fouls were soft. Again how would lebron deal with the brutal physicality of the Phoenix Suns?
Good post.

As for blaming LeBron for failing to develop a fadeaway jump shot... first of all, LeBron actually does have a fadeaway in his arsenal, and used it pretty often in the Cleveland days. Secondly, the fadeaway is relatively inefficient move for him. He can get better shots off than that. Whenever he takes it it's a sign that the defense is playing him well.

[sdot_thadon]

Good post.

As for blaming LeBron for failing to develop a fadeaway jump shot... first of all, LeBron actually does have a fadeaway in his arsenal, and used it pretty often in the Cleveland days. Secondly, the fadeaway is relatively inefficient move for him. He can get better shots off than that. Whenever he takes it it's a sign that the defense is playing him well.
:cheers:
Exactly. I'd imagine his size alone allows for better possibilities out of the post by default. If Mj was his size I'm sure his post game would have been even nastier than it already was.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ had arguably the GOAT Finals in 93' but even then he would not have won if he did not have a teammate (Pippen) average 21/9/8. LeBron's best teammate put up 15/4/3 in this year's Finals. :roll:


Technically what you said is correct (besides 2002 and 2003, he shot 42 and 44%) but you have to put things into context. It should be noted that in the 1980s and 1990s that everyone shot a higher FG%

The FG % is very misleading because 3's were not a big part of the game back then. If you compare MJ and Kobe in points per shot and effective FG % they are on par.

[GimmeThat]

Michael Jordan Full Highlights 1993 Finals G4 vs Suns - 55 Pts. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5JxoAkXeLI)

http://i.imgur.com/VWacAKu.png


Kevin Durant could.

0/1 > 2/5?


never mind, just saw that Westbrook went 43 points before Durant already

[juju151111]

MJ had arguably the GOAT Finals in 93' but even then he would not have won if he did not have a teammate (Pippen) average 21/9/8. LeBron's best teammate put up 15/4/3 in this year's Finals. :roll:



The FG % is very misleading because 3's were not a big part of the game back then. If you compare MJ and Kobe in points per shot and effective FG % they are on par.
Wade put up 25+ in 2011 and LJ did do much.:lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

MJ had arguably the GOAT Finals in 93' but even then he would not have won if he did not have a teammate (Pippen) average 21/9/8. LeBron's best teammate put up 15/4/3 in this year's Finals. :roll:



Err, Pippen had a 46% TS that Finals series. LMAO @ you trying to make it seem like he had some dominant series. He played his usual all-around game, but his scoring efficiency was ATROCIOUS. Probably equivalent to averaging like 14-16 ppg on good efficiency. It's funny how people will talk about the "no defense" Suns when discussing Jordan's historical Finals performance, yet Pippen gets a pass despite scoring like garbage that series. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

27/9/5 60% (CHI wins by 8)
15/12/12 42% (CHI wins by 3)
26/10/9 34% PHX wins by 8)
14/6/10 50% (CHI by 6)
22/6/5 40% (PHX by 10)
23/12/5 46% (CHI by 1)

He had a 12 for 35 game in Game 3, where he played 56 minutes in a triple overtime game. MJ himself was only 19 for 43. That game dragged his FG % from 48% to 44% for the series.

:oldlol: at diminishing 21/9/8 to make it, as usual, seem as MJ won all by himself. Barkley had 27/13/6 on 47.6% and KJ 17/3/6.5 on 42%.

[ArbitraryWater]

37 shots? :eek:

damn he averaged 32 fga that series :lol

[Marchesk]

damn he averaged 32 fga that series :lol

Yeah, Mike just didn't know how to play in the flow of the game.

[ArbitraryWater]

so you're saying it's cause of lebron's unselfishness he average around 2 points a game in 2011 finals in the 4th quarter? interesting. :rolleyes:

Nobody is.... the 2011 finals are all up in your head boy :oldlol:

He was too passive, now let it go..

[ArbitraryWater]

How would 21 of 37 FGA for Lebron make any difference in that series? 37 FGA means more offensive possessions instead for other guys, the boxscore wouldnt change.... Spurs still win.... the only difference that would make is raise Lebrons PPG and decrease his teammates PPG dramatically.... the outcome of that series wouldnt change....

Liked your different post, but gotta disagree with this...

He's much more effcient than his teammates, meaning him taking more shots result in more points.


You make it sound like all Lebron has to do to be on Jordan's level is have the mindset of a scorer......Like its merely HIS decision not to be on Jordan's level because he would rather be more like Magic......

Lets not kid ourselves, 1 game is not enough to assume that if Lebron averaged 37 fga's per game over a season that he would automatically be putting up 50 point games on the regular like Jordan. First of all, it takes talent to even be in a position to launch 37 GOOD fga's per game. You're shooting over double and tripple teams probably half the game. That means you have to consistently make tough shots much easier which Jordan did with his fadeaway and recognizing when he has a mismatch. Jordan is super smart. So is Lebron but Jordan is a different type of smart. Like, you can't make a single mistake against MJ on defense or its a basket. Thats the different between MJ and almost everyone else. Unless he's just off, you're not stopping him.

People make it seem like anybody from Nick Young to Lebron can just get 50 as long as they take 37 fga's and thats just false.

Not true at all.. Both MJ and LBJ can routinely get any shot they want..

MJ had those subtle quick shackes, he could get great looks with... and we know Bron can almost get to the rim at will, or line in stead.

[goldcrow]

Why you guys keep debating? The only difference that matters is MJ: 6/6, LBJ: 2/5.

[OldSchoolBBall]

27/9/5 60% (CHI wins by 8)
15/12/12 42% (CHI wins by 3)
26/10/9 34% PHX wins by 8)
14/6/10 50% (CHI by 6)
22/6/5 40% (PHX by 10)
23/12/5 46% (CHI by 1)

He had a 12 for 35 game in Game 3, where he played 56 minutes in a triple overtime game. MJ himself was only 19 for 43. That game dragged his FG % from 48% to 44% for the series.

:oldlol: at diminishing 21/9/8 to make it, as usual, seem as MJ won all by himself. Barkley had 27/13/6 on 47.6% and KJ 17/3/6.5 on 42%.

Do you realize HOW BAD 46% TS is? Do you? It's horrific scoring efficiency. Again, 21 ppg on 46% TS is like 14-16 ppg on good efficiency. Yet somehow no one ever brings up Pippen's terrible efficiency (and against a supposedly "no defense" Suns team, at that).

[juju151111]

27/9/5 60% (CHI wins by 8)
15/12/12 42% (CHI wins by 3)
26/10/9 34% PHX wins by 8)
14/6/10 50% (CHI by 6)
22/6/5 40% (PHX by 10)
23/12/5 46% (CHI by 1)

He had a 12 for 35 game in Game 3, where he played 56 minutes in a triple overtime game. MJ himself was only 19 for 43. That game dragged his FG % from 48% to 44% for the series.

:oldlol: at diminishing 21/9/8 to make it, as usual, seem as MJ won all by himself. Barkley had 27/13/6 on 47.6% and KJ 17/3/6.5 on 42%.
Wow Pippen shot like garbage. Good job by Mj. Didn't

[Paul George 24]

Nobody is.... the 2011 finals are all up in your head boy :oldlol:

He was too passive, now let it go..
so much excuse :facepalm

[Roundball_Rock]

The facts speak for themselves.

27/9/5 60% (CHI wins by 8)
15/12/12 42% (CHI wins by 3)
26/10/9 34% (PHX wins by 8)
14/6/10 50% (CHI by 6)
22/6/5 40% (PHX by 10)
23/12/5 46% (CHI by 1)

Yeah, he sucked from the FT line but he did solid overall outside of a triple overtime Game 3 (48%). I love how the 9 rebounds (from a SF--Grant averaged 10) and 8 assists are conveniently overlooked. :oldlol: If Pippen has a 14' Wade-type performance in Games 1, 2, and 6 the Suns win.

Regarding 93', Pippen arguably was the MVP of the ECF (he shot 51% to MJ's 41% and Pippen had 29 on 83% in crucial Game 3 while MJ shot 17% with CHI down 0-2)--Sports Illustrated called him the MVP--so without Pippen the Bulls don't even make the Finals in the first place.

How about Wade in the 2014 Finals?

19/3/2 44%
14/7/4 56%
22/4/2 67%
10/2/4 23%
11/3/1 33%

For the series, 15/4/3 on 44% (so no impact on games outside of average scoring) and that is being compared to 21/9/8 on 44%? :roll: Bosh had 14/5; Grant had 11/10.

The facts are clear: MJ had a great series but the Suns were a strong team that year with Barkley/KJ/Majerle. If Pippen and Grant played like Wade and Bosh the Bulls would have lost easily. Hell, the fourth best player on the Bulls (Armstrong) scored about as much as Wade did (14 for Armstrong versus 15 for Wade)!

[juju151111]

The facts speak for themselves.

27/9/5 60% (CHI wins by 8)
15/12/12 42% (CHI wins by 3)
26/10/9 34% (PHX wins by 8)
14/6/10 50% (CHI by 6)
22/6/5 40% (PHX by 10)
23/12/5 46% (CHI by 1)

Yeah, he sucked from the FT line but he did solid overall outside of a triple overtime Game 3 (48%). I love how the 9 rebounds (from a SF--Grant averaged 10) and 8 assists are conveniently overlooked. :oldlol: If Pippen has a 14' Wade-type performance in Games 1, 2, and 6 the Suns win.

Regarding 93', Pippen arguably was the MVP of the ECF (he shot 51% to MJ's 41% and Pippen had 29 on 83% in crucial Game 3 while MJ shot 17% with CHI down 0-2)--Sports Illustrated called him the MVP--so without Pippen the Bulls don't even make the Finals in the first place.

How about Wade in the 2014 Finals?

19/3/2 44%
14/7/4 56%
22/4/2 67%
10/2/4 23%
11/3/1 33%

For the series, 15/4/3 on 44% (so no impact on games outside of average scoring) and that is being compared to 21/9/8 on 44%? :roll: Bosh had 14/5; Grant had 11/10.

The facts are clear: MJ had a great series but the Suns were a strong team that year with Barkley/KJ/Majerle. If Pippen and Grant played like Wade and Bosh the Bulls would have lost easily. Hell, the fourth best player on the Bulls (Armstrong) scored about as much as Wade did (14 for Armstrong versus 15 for Wade)!
48% TS is horrible .

[ArbitraryWater]

so much excuse :facepalm

Wut :wtf:

Being passive is an excuse? Being passive is a bad thing, dude :lol

:hammerhead:

[Lebron23]

People still blamed LeBron in the 2014 NBA Finals series. Dude averaged 28.6 ppg on 57 FG%. I think he could have average over 30 ppg if the games were closer.

The other heat players were very tired, and unmotivated in the finals.

[OldSchoolBBall]

48% TS is horrible .

46% TS, not 48%. Just atrocious. Love how he's making it seem like Pippen had some monster series. Don't get me wrong - he had a GOOD series, but lmao @ Roundhead Rockforbrains trying to act like it was a dominant series to diminish Jordan. It's basically like a 16/9/7 series on good efficiency - which is a GOOD, not GREAT series.

The Phoenix "no defense" Suns held Pippen to 46% TS. Terrible.

[juju151111]

46% TS, not 48%. Just atrocious. Love how he's making it seem like Pippen had some monster series. Don't get me wrong - he had a GOOD series, but lmao @ Roundhead Rockforbrains trying to act like it was a dominant series to diminish Jordan. It's basically like a 16/9/7 series on good efficiency - which is a GOOD, not GREAT series.

The Phoenix "no defense" Suns held Pippen to 46% TS. Terrible.
Exactly lol Mj had to avg 40+ for them to win in 6.:facepalm Which game was it that Mj had to score almost all the 4th A points.

[TheMan]

You're right, he probably won't chuck up 37 shots and still call his teammates a**holes and pieces of sh*t for not giving him the ball more.
Shooting at an over 50% clip is now 'chucking' to this dolt :oldlol:

[TheMan]

I don't think you're really see Jordan's ability to create shots. It's just so phenomenal that it sucks when other people can't see it.
NumberSix is just trolling, man

[DonDadda59]

37 shots? :eek:

damn he averaged 32 fga that series :lol

If MJ had pulled a Bron and took 17 shots per game AKA second option style ala LeCramp in these past finals, the Bulls would've been blown out of the water San Antonio style. But the great one wasn't going to let performance anxiety, cramps, and explosive diarrhea get in the way of destiny. :bowdown:

[ArbitraryWater]

If MJ had pulled a Bron and took 17 shots per game AKA second option style ala LeCramp in these past finals, the Bulls would've been blown out of the water San Antonio style. But the great one wasn't going to let performance anxiety, cramps, and explosive diarrhea get in the way of destiny. :bowdown:

performance anxiety, diarrhea? When did this happen?


Anyway, no shit, it's the Phoenix Suns Defense... LeBron would average 40 on perhaps fewer attempts :lol

That team was all offense - no (average) defense

[OldSchoolBBall]

performance anxiety, diarrhea? When did this happen?


Anyway, no shit, it's the Phoenix Suns Defense... LeBron would average 40 on perhaps fewer attempts :lol

That team was all offense - no (average) defense

Lebron wouldn't average anywhere near 40. That's a joke of a statement. I'd say 32-36 ppg. Lebron isn't near the scorer Jordan is.

[riseagainst]

Lebron wouldn't average anywhere near 40. That's a joke of a statement. I'd say 32-36 ppg. Lebron isn't near the scorer Jordan is.

32-36 ppg with 18 FTA a game. Like in 09 against the Magic.

[Deuce Bigalow]

performance anxiety, diarrhea? When did this happen?


Anyway, no shit, it's the Phoenix Suns Defense... LeBron would average 40 on perhaps fewer attempts :lol

That team was all offense - no (average) defense
No

[Heavincent]

performance anxiety, diarrhea? When did this happen?


He was seen running into the locker room during the 1st quarter of one of the games. He definitely had the runs.

[tontoz]

isn't that the game that they tried to put Dumas on Jordan? They kept trying different guys and nothing worked. There wasn't much defensive resistance in that game from the Suns.

[TheMan]

isn't that the game that they tried to put Dumas on Jordan? They kept trying different guys and nothing worked. There wasn't much defensive resistance in that game from the Suns.
We gotta keep in mind that Thunder Dan Majerle was a very good defender, 2 time All Defensive Second Team, but this was prime MJ we're talking about, simply impossible to defend. They went small on MJ, putting KJ on him in hopes that he was quick enough to stay in front but MJ posted him up or shot over him with that deadly midrange game. OTOH, Majerle was big and strong enough to not let MJ repeatedly get great low position but couldn't stay in front of him on the perimeter and MJ blew past him alot.

Essentially it was a pick your poison deal defending Jordan that series, the Suns never had a chance vs the GOAT in his prime.

[hawke812]

Jordan = 1/9 before Pippen and crew carried him during the expansion era.

Lebron carried his team to the finals.

Don't even mention Jordan's name in the same breath as Lebron. Basketball is so much more competitive than Jordan's championship era.

[Marchesk]

Don't even mention Jordan's name in the same breath as Lebron. Basketball is so much more competitive than Jordan's championship era.

Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Kemp, Stocton, Magic, Worthy, Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Lambier, Patyon, Hardaway, Miller, KJ.

Just stop.

http://i.minus.com/i6yVgviIi1oIi.gif

[Ne 1]

Jordan = 1/9 before Pippen and crew carried him during the expansion era.

Lebron carried his team to the finals.

Don't even mention Jordan's name in the same breath as Lebron. Basketball is so much more competitive than Jordan's championship era.
His team beat two 40 win teams and a depleted pistons team, he "carried" them to victory in game 5. Other than that it was Bobbie Gibson in game 6 and the team defense deserves credit for their play throughout the series.

[dubeta]

Jordan = 1/9 before Pippen and crew carried him during the expansion era.

Lebron carried his team to the finals.

Don't even mention Jordan's name in the same breath as Lebron. Basketball is so much more competitive than Jordan's championship era.

I swear, Jordan stacked the deck to the brim

2nd Best player who was the best defender on his team, plus the best interior defender and rebounder, GOAT role players and the GOAT coach? :roll: :roll:

It was basically YMCA ball, no competition, just casually play with a stacked team

[riseagainst]

I swear, Jordan stacked the deck to the brim

2nd Best player who was the best defender on his team, plus the best interior defender and rebounder, GOAT role players and the GOAT coach? :roll: :roll:

It was basically YMCA ball, no competition, just casually play with a stacked team

those are all false.

[ArbitraryWater]

He was seen running into the locker room during the 1st quarter of one of the games. He definitely had the runs.

I'm just happy you replied to me, friend :cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Kemp, Stocton, Magic, Worthy, Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Lambier, Patyon, Hardaway, Miller, KJ.

What all those players have in common? They are all from one country. It was not until the 2000's that the NBA truly became global. It is amusing to see "2/5" waved around but those teams would not have existed in the 90's or 80's. Most of the 2014 Spurs' rotation consisted of international players and the 07' team obviously had a large international presence (the 1994 and 1984 Spurs had zero international players) and you had Dirk in 11'. The talent in the NBA today is greater than it ever has been. In the 50's you played the best white players; from the 60's through the 90's you played the best American players; from the 2000's to today you play the best in the world.

The only international players of significance MJ met in the Finals were a 22 Divac, a role player for the Lakers, and Detlef Schrempf, the Sonic's third best player. The Bulls actually were ahead of the curve regarding international players with Kukoc and Longley--two of their six most important players (Wennington is Canadian but went to high school in America).

That said, the rules were tougher for perimeter players in MJ's time. Other than MJ and Wilkins the top scorers in the 90's were all centers or power forwards. You could put up 23 ppg and be the second highest scoring perimeter player that year in the 90's.

[DMV2]

Shooting at an over 50% clip is now 'chucking' to this dolt :oldlol:
Didn't you get the memo that 25 points on 66% >>>> 55 points on 57% is the new golden standard these days. :lol

This generation thinks that the +9% is a lot better than the 30 points difference in scoring. SMH

[tontoz]

We gotta keep in mind that Thunder Dan Majerle was a very good defender, 2 time All Defensive Second Team, but this was prime MJ we're talking about, simply impossible to defend. They went small on MJ, putting KJ on him in hopes that he was quick enough to stay in front but MJ posted him up or shot over him with that deadly midrange game. OTOH, Majerle was big and strong enough to not let MJ repeatedly get great low position but couldn't stay in front of him on the perimeter and MJ blew past him alot.

Essentially it was a pick your poison deal defending Jordan that series, the Suns never had a chance vs the GOAT in his prime.


I remember the game. I don't think Dan was guarding him to start the game. I think Dumas was guarding him at the start and MJ roasted him. Then they switched up to someone else.

Dan was guarding him in previous games with, ahem, mixed results.

[sdot_thadon]

The defense in that video was atrocious.

[hawke812]

Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Kemp, Stocton, Magic, Worthy, Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Lambier, Patyon, Hardaway, Miller, KJ.

Just stop.

http://i.minus.com/i6yVgviIi1oIi.gif


Wow, the ENTIRE NBA was so stacked with all those guys lolololol.

Watered down league.

[Replay32]

Just look at the very first shot :wtf:

He's just jogging to catch MJ... horrid defense :biggums:

Like wade and lebron's transition defense in this years NBA finals. :coleman:

[Dro]

Liked your different post, but gotta disagree with this...

He's much more effcient than his teammates, meaning him taking more shots result in more points.



Not true at all.. Both MJ and LBJ can routinely get any shot they want..

MJ had those subtle quick shackes, he could get great looks with... and we know Bron can almost get to the rim at will, or line in stead.
I mean, Lebron can get any shot he wants, you're probably right about that but can he make them with the consistency that Jordan does? I mean it can be argued that when Jordan shot over a double team, thats a good shot for him, because he can make it at a 50% clip. Can Lebron shoot over double teams and make the shot consistently like that?

Also, if hand checking were allowed, I'm not sure if Lebron could get to the rim as easily as he does because he' doesn't have the greatest handles, doesn't have the best first step(it used to be much quicker a few years ago), and he's not the quickest player...Definitely very fast but not very quick.

[riseagainst]

Like wade and lebron's transition defense in this years NBA finals. :coleman:

did he delete his post?

[jstern]

The defense in that video was atrocious.

Why do you say that? Because Jordan is not struggling?

I think it would look better to you if he over dribbled, instead of Jordan's style of scoring as quickly as he can with quick and amazing footwork. Or if he was slower in letting the double and triple team settle.

I'm thinking of Manu Ginobili during an isolation play in the Finals, no resistance whatsoever. It was kind of embarrassing the way it looked like the defense didn't do anything. But would that have been bad defense, or just great offense?

This if my favorite play of the video because it's something that I do a lot and know how impossible it is to defend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5JxoAkXeLI&feature=player_detailpage#t=229

I don't even care about the dunk, I care more about the footwork, etc. Yet you probably think that the defense was simply so bad, as opposed to the offense being so good.

[Dro]

We gotta keep in mind that Thunder Dan Majerle was a very good defender, 2 time All Defensive Second Team, but this was prime MJ we're talking about, simply impossible to defend. They went small on MJ, putting KJ on him in hopes that he was quick enough to stay in front but MJ posted him up or shot over him with that deadly midrange game. OTOH, Majerle was big and strong enough to not let MJ repeatedly get great low position but couldn't stay in front of him on the perimeter and MJ blew past him alot.

Essentially it was a pick your poison deal defending Jordan that series, the Suns never had a chance vs the GOAT in his prime.
Exactly...People acting like the Suns didn't play defense....This isn't the current Suns.....Dumas was a good defender, Majerle was an excellent defender and KJ was decent himself, he was just too short.

[ArbitraryWater]

Just look at the very first shot :wtf:

He's just jogging to catch MJ... horrid defense

[Dro]

I swear, Jordan stacked the deck to the brim

2nd Best player who was the best defender on his team, plus the best interior defender and rebounder, GOAT role players and the GOAT coach? :roll: :roll:

It was basically YMCA ball, no competition, just casually play with a stacked team
You are easily one of the worst trolls on this site. You probably have 3-4 alts in this thread alone......

[sdot_thadon]

Why do you say that? Because Jordan is not struggling?

I think it would look better to you if he over dribbled, instead of Jordan's style of scoring as quickly as he can with quick and amazing footwork. Or if he was slower in letting the double and triple team settle.

I'm thinking of Manu Ginobili during an isolation play in the Finals, no resistance whatsoever. It was kind of embarrassing the way it looked like the defense didn't do anything. But would that have been bad defense, or just great offense?

This if my favorite play of the video because it's something that I do a lot and know how impossible it is to defend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5JxoAkXeLI&feature=player_detailpage#t=229

I don't even care about the dunk, I care more about the footwork, etc. Yet you probably think that the defense was simply so bad, as opposed to the offense being so good.
I say it because it was bad. Him running through screens and the defender causally trailing him, not fighting through and no one else switching to deny him a state's worth of floor space.... Now with that said Mj had many small nuances to his game to get space but I've seen players to a better job in today's supposed "weak era". That play was a nice hesitation by Mj but thunder "2nd team all defense" dan's feet were planted the entire exchange almost. It was lazy as hell, he tried to play defense with his hands and not his feet.....


Also, if hand checking were allowed, I'm not sure if Lebron could get to the rim as easily as he does because he' doesn't have the greatest handles, doesn't have the best first step(it used to be much quicker a few years ago), and he's not the quickest player...Definitely very fast but not very quick.
The other part of your post was good but for the life of me can't understand this whole Lebron would die because of handchecking thought. You watch lebron currently so you know he'd be faster and stronger than 99% of the sf from the 90s too right? In this very video we see Mj deal with handchecks with his off arm several times. Lebron does this exact same move in the current "no hanchecking era".......also when he just decides to bulldoze In like so many complain about, in a rougher era wouldn't he get away with it even more?

[jstern]

I say it because it was bad. Him running through screens and the defender causally trailing him, not fighting through and no one else switching to deny him a state's worth of floor space.... Now with that said Mj had many small nuances to his game to get space but I've seen players to a better job in today's supposed "weak era". That play was a nice hesitation by Mj but thunder "2nd team all defense" dan's feet were planted the entire exchange almost. It was lazy as hell, he tried to play defense with his hands and not his feet.....



This is exactly what I'm talking about. That wasn't even a hesitation, which shows how clueless you are about that particular move. A move that I do repeatedly and no one can defend it. I would love to play against you and just do that over and over to you.

The reason why I brought Manu up was because I saw him to something similar, yet the defender simply didn't move at all. I have to re watch it again, because it was so bad that I'm not sure if it was bad defense, or a good move. Majerle at least reacted. I don't want to be in your state where I call bad defense because I'm ignorant about a move. And your post helped me with that.

I'm half way through the video, I was expecting to see a display of players of not fighting through screen. I'm assuming that you probably saw one play where a defender didn't fight through a screen in the second part of the video, and you're deciding to use that play to represent the whole game.

[sdot_thadon]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. That wasn't even a hesitation, which shows how clueless you are about that particular move. A move that I do repeatedly and no one can defend it. I would love to play against you and just do that over and over to you.

The reason why I brought Manu up was because I saw him to something similar, yet the defender simply didn't move at all. I have to re watch it again, because it was so bad that I'm not sure if it was bad defense, or a good move. Majerle at least reacted. I don't want to be in your state where I call bad defense because I'm ignorant about a move. And your post helped me with that.

I'm half way through the video, I was expecting to see a display of players of not fighting through screen. I'm assuming that you probably saw one play where a defender didn't fight through a screen in the second part of the video, and you're deciding to use that play to represent the whole game.
Now we were have a decent exchange but nice way to assume things. I watched it yesterday and there were at least 2 plays maybe 3 where that casual ass off ball d was played. There wasn't very much team pressure in that video at all. Lots of casual following.

That move could have been called a cross over but it was kinda lazily done thats why I reffered to it as a hesitation: he froze dan with it. Dan planted and swiped, when in reality a good defender would have been on his back pedal......

**edit** this video is being used a representation of the entire game throughout this thread. Or does this only apply to my post?

[jstern]

Now we were have a decent exchange but nice way to assume things. I watched it yesterday and there were at least 2 plays maybe 3 where that casual ass off ball d was played. There wasn't very much team pressure in that video at all. Lots of casual following.

That move could have been called a cross over but it was kinda lazily done thats why I reffered to it as a hesitation: he froze dan with it. Dan planted and swiped, when in reality a good defender would have been on his back pedal......

Moving on, because like Kobe all I did back in the day was dissect moves and try them. It wasn't a lazily done crossover. In fact I would find this one to be a more effective cross over than faking to one side and crossing to the other side, which I would assume you would find more effective, even though in reality it give the defense that extra split second to react, while the one that Jordan did there gives you no time to react.

But in that crossover, the ball is irrelevant. What's relevant is the foot work. I realize it's very difficult for people to understand if they can't really play like that. But I'm very balance when I dribble in the sense that I can move as if I don't have the ball. I also do zero And1 stuff. So you have to be able to imagine yourself being able to move as if you didn't have the ball, to understand why the ball is irrelevant in that play. That play is closer to a football player running down and changing direction to go by the defender, and that's why it's so difficult to defend.

But I realize that people don't have that experience of breaking down moves and applying them, and really understanding it. And it's sad because I'm horrified hearing somebody say that that was a lazily done crossover. It's actually extremely effective and requires a lot of explosive effort.

[LoneyROY7]

Shooting at an over 50% clip is now 'chucking' to this dolt :oldlol:

Another Jordan stan doing anything they can to protect the legacy of their idol.

Meanwhile, MJ wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.

[veilside23]

People still blamed LeBron in the 2014 NBA Finals series. Dude averaged 28.6 ppg on 57 FG%. I think he could have average over 30 ppg if the games were closer.

The other heat players were very tired, and unmotivated in the finals.


but but i thought lebron james makes his teammates better?

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/1125613_Thanksgiving.jpg

[sdot_thadon]

Moving on, because like Kobe all I did back in the day was dissect moves and try them. It wasn't a lazily done crossover. In fact I would find this one to be a more effective cross over than faking to one side and crossing to the other side, which I would assume you would find more effective, even though in reality it give the defense that extra split second to react, while the one that Jordan did there gives you no time to react.

But in that crossover, the ball is irrelevant. What's relevant is the foot work. I realize it's very difficult for people to understand if they can't really play like that. But I'm very balance when I dribble in the sense that I can move as if I don't have the ball. I also do zero And1 stuff. So you have to be able to imagine yourself being able to move as if you didn't have the ball, to understand why the ball is irrelevant in that play. That play is closer to a football player running down and changing direction to go by the defender, and that's why it's so difficult to defend.

But I realize that people don't have that experience of breaking down moves and applying them, and really understanding it. And it's sad because I'm horrified hearing somebody say that that was a lazily done crossover. It's actually extremely effective and requires a lot of explosive effort.
What's sad is taking this "holier than thou" stance. I think you are a good poster and I understand your analysis of the move exactly, however I feel if Dan played with his feet like a true all d 2nd teamer, that doesnt happen. You're breaking down the technical aspect of what Mj did only while ignoring Majerle altogether. Every play is a 2 man dance jstern.

[jstern]

What's sad is taking this "holier than thou" stance. I think you are a good poster and I understand your analysis of the move exactly, however I feel if Dan played with his feet like a true all d 2nd teamer, that doesnt happen. You're breaking down the technical aspect of what Mj did only while ignoring Majerle altogether. Every play is a 2 man dance jstern.

I'm not acting holier than thou. I was afraid of sounding arrogant with saying things like I'm very balanced when I dribble, and dribble as if I don't have the basketball. But it is what it is, and it's not something that I just woke up one day. It's a lot of relatable understanding.

I completely understand that play, I cannot take your opinion on that particular play, or on Dan's defense, since you don't even understand how effective that Jordan move was, in a relatable, done it hundreds of times way. Understanding how it feels to go by people that way.

I'm not being an asshole here because I'm really passionate about breaking down moves, so it's extremely entertaining.

Perhaps it's the angle that you're looking it at. The angle at 4:02 shows Majerle hopping on his feet in anticipation for Jordan going to his left or right, with Jordan going straight at him. Now on on the next angle, if you can watch frame by frame while ignoring the ball, and imagine a person running with a football, then it would give you a better understanding of how effective and difficult to guard that play is.

You even seem to think that Dan was just standing there. He was moving his feet in anticipation to Jordan, but Jordan was coming in a straight line towards him. Did you want Majerle to side step back and forth when he has Jordan going in a straight line towards him?

Another thing that's sad to me is how future generations are not going to appreciate Lebron's game, and think that the defenders are playing bad defense just because it doesn't look that aesthetically pleasing to a good percentage of fans, and they can't understand it.

[TheMan]

LeBron stans so desperate, grasping at whatever to try and deny MJ was unstoppable in his prime :oldlol:

You want to talk about bad defense? Stop acting like bad defense doesn't exist today. Rewatch the Heat, and LeBron's defensive effort in these past Finals, open look after open look, fat boy Diaw getting into the lane with no resistance, gimpy Parker getting to the hole again and again, old geezer Manu posterizing Allen and Bosh :oldlol:

That was the definition of 'bad defense'. You fakkits got some nerve trashing the Suns for bad defense :coleman:

[sdot_thadon]

I'm not acting holier than thou. I was afraid of sounding arrogant with saying things like I'm very balanced when I dribble, and dribble as if I don't have the basketball. But it is what it is, and it's not something that I just woke up one day. It's a lot of relatable understanding.

I completely understand that play, I cannot take your opinion on that particular play, or on Dan's defense, since you don't even understand how effective that Jordan move was, in a relatable, done it hundreds of times way. Understanding how it feels to go by people that way.

I'm not being an asshole here because I'm really passionate about breaking down moves, so it's extremely entertaining.

Perhaps it's the angle that you're looking it at. The angle at 4:02 shows Majerle hopping on his feet in anticipation for Jordan going to his left or right, with Jordan going straight at him. Now on on the next angle, if you can watch frame by frame while ignoring the ball, and imagine a person running with a football, then it would give you a better understanding of how effective and difficult to guard that play is.

You even seem to think that Dan was just standing there. He was moving his feet in anticipation to Jordan, but Jordan was coming in a straight line towards him. Did you want Majerle to side step back and forth when he has Jordan going in a straight line towards him?

Another thing that's sad to me is how future generations are not going to appreciate Lebron's game, and think that the defenders are playing bad defense just because it doesn't look that aesthetically pleasing to a good percentage of fans, and they can't understand it.
Well I'm not one of those guys lol. But I can respect where you're coming from that's fine. My overall point was in the video, which disclaimer is really only highlights (I hate that), I wasn't impressed with that defense. Moreso because it was used as some sort of proof as to what Lebron wouldn't be able to do. Mj is my favorite player ever, but I loathe the deifying of him. It does more to discredit his briliance than help it. His game speaks for itself. If you don't mind me asking what do think about my comment on the whole off hand thing Mj did several times throughout?

[sdot_thadon]

LeBron stans so desperate, grasping at whatever to try and deny MJ was unstoppable in his prime :oldlol:

You want to talk about bad defense? Stop acting like bad defense doesn't exist today. Rewatch the Heat, and LeBron's defensive effort in these past Finals, open look after open look, fat boy Diaw getting into the lane with no resistance, gimpy Parker getting to the hole again and again, old geezer Manu posterizing Allen and Bosh :oldlol:

That was the definition of 'bad defense'. You fakkits got some nerve trashing the Suns for bad defense :coleman:
I'm not sure if you meant this for me but hell yeah miami played bottom of the barrel defense in the finals and it's still pretty fresh in mind. Good defense is most definitely easy to recognize for the trained eye, as is bad defense.

[jstern]

Well I'm not one of those guys lol. But I can respect where you're coming from that's fine. My overall point was in the video, which disclaimer is really only highlights (I hate that), I wasn't impressed with that defense. Moreso because it was used as some sort of proof as to what Lebron wouldn't be able to do. Mj is my favorite player ever, but I loathe the deifying of him. It does more to discredit his briliance than help it. His game speaks for itself. If you don't mind me asking what do think about my comment on the whole off hand thing Mj did several times throughout?


It’s something that I do a lot against this guy who hand checks the hell out of me. I have to lift my off arm up and put it in front of his as I drive. I like it, because it creates more of a battle between the offensive player and the guy defending him.

I haven’t given it much thought, but it’s more of a battle, and reminds me of what Kobe said about the rule changes. Which is it has made it easier for lesser players to drive. That before lesser players weren’t really able to drive with ease, while the good players like him and I would assume Lebron, etc would be able to adjust to that. He said something to that effect, if someone has a link.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5JxoAkXeLI&feature=player_detailpage#t=177

Look at that play, if that arm stays in front, it can be really irritating and slows you down. I tend to do it once like Jordan did there, and then just let the guy continue pushing me back. So noticing that I'm going to adjust to that and do it over and over to push his arm off.

[The-Legend-24]

1-9 without pippen

[sdot_thadon]

It’s something that I do a lot against this guy who hand checks the hell out of me. I have to lift my off arm up and put it in front of his as I drive. I like it, because it creates more of a battle between the offensive player and the guy defending him.

I haven’t given it much thought, but it’s more of a battle, and reminds me of what Kobe said about the rule changes. Which is it has made it easier for lesser players to drive. That before lesser players weren’t really able to drive with ease, while the good players like him and I would assume Lebron, etc would be able to adjust to that. He said something to that effect, if someone has a link.
Yeah. Totaly agree. Actually Lebron did it semi frequently this season in a no handcheck era, it's already part of his toolset. That's why I mention it.

**soemtimes when lebron does it its similar to a defensive line man's swim move. Once the contact occurs he does it to get them on his hip. Once there its over. Paul pierce is really good at those type of moves.

[Roundball_Rock]

1-9 without pippen

Check this out:

1985: Bulls go 38-44.
1986: Bulls go 30-52.
1987: Bulls go 40-42.
1988: Bulls go 50-32.
1989: Bulls start 13-12, make Pippen a permanent starter and proceed to go on a 32-15 roll, including winning 9 of their next 11 games. The upturn began exactly when Pippen became a permanent starter. Coincidence? The same thing happened when Pippen was old in Portland from 2001-2003. The Blazers were a .500 team when Pippen was out but when he played they were one of the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. The guy simply promoted winning wherever he went. :bowdown:

MJ was the main reason the Bulls won but it is revealing that the Bulls becoming a winning team coincided exactly with Pippen's emergence as a key contributor...

[DonDadda59]

Check this out:

1985: Bulls go 38-44.
1986: Bulls go 30-52.
1987: Bulls go 40-42.
1988: Bulls go 50-32.
1989: Bulls start 13-12, make Pippen a permanent starter and proceed to go on a 32-15 roll, including winning 9 of their next 11 games. The upturn began exactly when Pippen became a permanent starter. Coincidence? The same thing happened when Pippen was old in Portland from 2001-2003. The Blazers were a .500 team when Pippen was out but when he played they were one of the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. The guy simply promoted winning wherever he went. :bowdown:

MJ was the main reason the Bulls won but it is revealing that the Bulls becoming a winning team coincided exactly with Pippen's emergence as a key contributor...

Seems like the 'upturn' began the season Jordan won MVP and DPOY while Pippen was riding the bench. :coleman:

[Roundball_Rock]

13-12 and going nowhere in 89' (which suggests 88' was an outlier as the Bulls were back to their .500ish ways), which is why Collins had to make a change to the starting line-up. The rest is history. :bowdown:

[DonDadda59]

13-12 and going nowhere in 89' (which suggests 88' was an outlier as the Bulls were back to their .500ish ways), which is why Collins had to make a change to the starting line-up. The rest is history. :bowdown:

If their start in '89 makes Jordan's MVP/DPOY '88 season an 'outlier'... what does the Bulls record w/o Jordan in '95 make their '94 season? :confusedshrug:

[knicksman]

Check this out:

1985: Bulls go 38-44.
1986: Bulls go 30-52.
1987: Bulls go 40-42.
1988: Bulls go 50-32.
1989: Bulls start 13-12, make Pippen a permanent starter and proceed to go on a 32-15 roll, including winning 9 of their next 11 games. The upturn began exactly when Pippen became a permanent starter. Coincidence? The same thing happened when Pippen was old in Portland from 2001-2003. The Blazers were a .500 team when Pippen was out but when he played they were one of the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. The guy simply promoted winning wherever he went. :bowdown:

MJ was the main reason the Bulls won but it is revealing that the Bulls becoming a winning team coincided exactly with Pippen's emergence as a key contributor...

at the end of the day.. 2/5 is all that matters. And bran stans IQ got exposed when lebron lost. So no matter what you say, your group would still be considered the dumbest on this board. I mean whos idiot enough to think lebron is better than jordan when bran cant even win with 2 players better than pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

If their start in '89 makes Jordan's MVP/DPOY '88 season an 'outlier'... what does the Bulls record w/o Jordan in '95 make their '94 season? :confusedshrug:

It makes the 88' team's performance an outlier, not MJ's. 95' was the outlier, 94' was a continuation of a five year streak of 55+ wins, just as the first third of the 89' season was a continuation of a streak of .500 ball in the MJ era (38-44 in 85', 9-9 when MJ played in the RS in 86', 40-42 and then a 13-12 start in 89'). In 95' they lost two starters (both from the front line), including all-star Grant, Scott Williams completely and Longley missed the first 25 or so games. Their front line was decimated. They were forced to use Kukoc as a PF. :roll:

[knicksman]

bran stans really are the dumbest on this board. They only see stats or individual impact coz they just dont have the IQ to analyze how their hero reduces the impact of their teammates. They dont believe in making the whole greater than the sum of its parts coz its a mind blown for them.

[DonDadda59]

It makes the 88' team's performance an outlier, not MJ's. 95' was the outlier, 94' was a continuation of a five year streak of 55+ wins, just as the first third of the 89' season was a continuation of a streak of .500 ball in the MJ era (38-44 in 85', 9-9 when MJ played in the RS in 86', 40-42 and then a 13-12 start in 89').

Bruh, you're talking yourself in circles now. You were called out on your bullshit (per usual) now you're contradicting your own misguided talking points.

You at first: The Bulls start in '89 before Captain Migraine was upgraded to starter means their 50 win season in '88 was an 'outlier'.

After I pointed out that the Bulls were trash in '95 after having a surprising 2nd round caliber '94 season, thereby it being an 'outlier' as well by your own 'logic'... You: buh buh buh look at the streak of Jordan's rookie year, the 2nd season he missed virtually the entirety of, and his third year.

Stop it, son. You got caught with your hand in the damn cookie jar.

And if we're talking about 'upturns' in '89... ECF... wassup wit dat from Pip?


In 95' they lost two starters (both from the front line), including all-star Grant, Scott Williams completely and Longley missed the first 25 or so games. Their front line was decimated. They were forced to use Kukoc as a PF. :roll:

Yes, they were an average to below squad, struggling to even maintain a playoff spot... until a Jordan w/ no preseason training jumped back into the fray and propelled them to a 13-4 record (They were 34-31 beforehand).

And lest we forget that Jordan's first full year back as a starter set the all time record for most wins (72) and the Bulls had one of the biggest single season improvements in NBA History (47 wins to 72, not counting the Bulls terrible record before he came back to finish out the '95 season).

Hell of an 'upturn' there. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

out

[DonDadda59]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]out

[Roundball_Rock]

You've resorted to busting out dictionary passages now? What makes '88 an 'outlier'... and not the beginning of a streak of 50+ wins from that season-98

13-12 and then Pippen becomes a starter and the wins start rolling in. :pimp:

Good question, though. Outliers are events that are unexplainable. Do you have an explanation for the Bulls' dip in 89'? The 88' improvement can be attributed to MJ raising his game but what about 89'? Did MJ take a dip or did the team return to its usual .500ish self? If MJ took a dip then, yeah, the 89' start becomes an outlier. Otherwise, if MJ played basically the same from 1987-1989 and they were .500 in 87', on their way to 0.500 again in 89' then 88' is the outlier. They won 50 games. It is not that big of a jump from 45 wins to 50 wins. 45 wins would be consistent with their pattern. If they jumped to 55 or so wins that would be different.

Pippen was just a winner.

Pippen the perennial winner

49-30
47-35 (missed nine games)
55-27
61-21
67-15
56-25
51-21
46-33
67-10
69-13
36-8
31-19
59-23
37-27
39-23
41-23
3-20

Translated win totals over 82 games from 1988-2003

51
47
55
61
67
57
58
48
71
69
67
51
59
47
52
53

Average: 57 wins, 70%
Pace for best record in the NBA: 5
Pace for the second best record in the NBA: 2 (1994 and 2000)
Pace for the #1 seed: 6
Pace for the #1 or #2 seed: 8

He was stuck in the ultracompetitive, deep West in the 2000's. His 2002 and 2003 teams were top 5 teams. In 2002 his team was the 5th best in the league and in 2003 4th best but all the superior teams happened to be in the West. If his Portland teams, which were below .500 without him in these seasons, were in the East they would have been the #1 seeds and probably made it to the NBA finals in 2002 and 2003.

Portland in 2002 with Pippen: 39-21 (65%, #5 in the league)
Portland in 2002 without Pippen: 10-12 (45%, 19th in the league)

Portland in 2003 with Pippen: 38-19 (67%, #4 in the league)
Portland in 2003 without Pippen: 12-13 (48%, #19 in the league)

[juju151111]

13-12 and then Pippen becomes a starter and the wins start rolling in. :pimp:

Good question, though. Outliers are events that are unexplainable. Do you have an explanation for the Bulls' dip in 89'? The 88' improvement can be attributed to MJ raising his game but what about 89'? Did MJ take a dip or did the team return to its usual .500ish self? If MJ took a dip then, yeah, the 89' start becomes an outlier. Otherwise, if MJ played basically the same from 1987-1989 and they were .500 in 87', on their way to 0.500 again in 89' then 88' is the outlier. They won 50 games. It is not that big of a jump from 45 wins to 50 wins. 45 wins would be consistent with their pattern. If they jumped to 55 or so wins that would be different.

Pippen was just a winner.

Pippen the perennial winner

49-30
47-35 (missed nine games)
55-27
61-21
67-15
56-25
51-21
46-33
67-10
69-13
36-8
31-19
59-23
37-27
39-23
41-23
3-20

Translated win totals over 82 games from 1988-2003

51
47
55
61
67
57
58
48
71
69
67
51
59
47
52
53

Average: 57 wins, 70%
Pace for best record in the NBA: 5
Pace for the second best record in the NBA: 2 (1994 and 2000)
Pace for the #1 seed: 6
Pace for the #1 or #2 seed: 8

He was stuck in the ultracompetitive, deep West in the 2000's. His 2002 and 2003 teams were top 5 teams. In 2002 his team was the 5th best in the league and in 2003 4th best but all the superior teams happened to be in the West. If his Portland teams, which were below .500 without him in these seasons, were in the East they would have been the #1 seeds and probably made it to the NBA finals in 2002 and 2003.

Portland in 2002 with Pippen: 39-21 (65%, #5 in the league)
Portland in 2002 without Pippen: 10-12 (45%, 19th in the league)

Portland in 2003 with Pippen: 38-19 (67%, #4 in the league)
Portland in 2003 without Pippen: 12-13 (48%, #19 in the league)
What happened to the winner in 89 and 90 in those last two crucial games? Isn't a winner surpose to step up in those moments?

[DonDadda59]

Good question, though. Outliers are events that are unexplainable. Do you have an explanation for the Bulls' dip in 89'? The 88' improvement can be attributed to MJ raising his game but what about 89'?

The Team lost one of its key pieces in Oakley to the Knicks. There was major upheaval in the beginning (Horace Grant becoming a starter, Pip getting major minutes and eventually becoming a starter, Cartwright joining the squad). Eventually, as we know, that would be the cornerstone of the Bulls first 3-peat. But like every squad, everyone had to get on the same page and there were bumps in the beginning.

In the end, they only lost 3 more games than the season before but managed to make it to the ECF, losing to the eventual champions. But of course in your mind this was all thanks to 2nd year, migraine-suffering Pip whose playoff run looked like this:

First round vs Cle: 15/9/4 (39.7% FG) *Jordan averaged 40/6/8/3 (52% FG) and won the series on a do or die buzzer beater*
Second round vs NYK: 15/7/5 (58% FG) *Jordan averaged 36/10/8 (55% FG)*
ECF vs Det: 10/7/3 (40% FG) *Jordan averaged 30/6/7 (46% FG)*

All said: 14/6/3.5 (50% FG) Reg. Season; 13/8/4 (46% FG) Playoffs

Jordan Reg Season: 33/8/8/3 (54% FG)
Jordan Playoffs: 35/7/8/3 (51% FG)

Pip had a nice first season with real responsibilities, but you give him WAY too much credit for the team's overall success. Horace in his first year as a starter was just as pivotal as Scottie.

[Roundball_Rock]

Fact: they immediately went on a roll when Pippen became a starter. Let me guess: that was a coincidence?


ECF vs Det: 10/7/3 (40% FG)

:lol at MJ stans always including a game in which Pip played 1 minute to drag down his averages.

[DonDadda59]

Fact: they immediately went on a roll when Pippen became a starter. Let me guess: that was a coincidence?

Considering the team had just won 50 games with him riding the bench, clearly it was a 'coincidence' for lack of a better term. That's not to say he didn't have an effect on the W/L column, but so did Horace who was coming into his own, Cartwright, etc. And of course the GOAT GOATing. As I pointed out when I answered your question about the state of the squad at the beginning of '89, they were a team in transition to start.



:lol at MJ stans always including a game in which Pip played 1 minute to drag down his averages.

Was it the migraines as usual? :confusedshrug:

[TheMan]

13-12 and going nowhere in 89' (which suggests 88' was an outlier as the Bulls were back to their .500ish ways), which is why Collins had to make a change to the starting line-up. The rest is history. :bowdown:
You try way too hard.

Bulls fans acknowledge that Pip was the second most important player in the Bulls 90s Dynasty. You don't have to always cut MJ down to prop up Pip unless you got an agenda. The idiots who post "1/9" are LeBron stans grasping at anything to throw shit at Mike. Morons like livinglegend and dubeta weren't even born yet so obviously they're just a bunch of ignorant shook Bran stans talking about shit they know nothing about. They haven't the slightest clue that the EC was top heavy (76ers, Bucks, Hawks, Celtics and Pistons) in the 80s and other than MJ, the Bulls didn't have another All-Star in those rosters. Until Pippen and Grant developed, the Bulls were basically a one man team going up against legendary teams, these aren't the mid 2000s Wizards we're talking about here.

All you do is encourage ignorance. Bulls fan, my ass.

[Roundball_Rock]

Considering the team had just won 50 games with him riding the bench, clearly it was a 'coincidence' for lack of a better term.

You realize they were on their way to losing in the first round for the fourth consecutive year until he became a temporary starter in 88'? :lol



All you do is encourage ignorance

MJ was the main reason the Bulls succeeded but Pippen was an integral part, as has been attested to by many, including Phil Jackson, Tex Winter, Bill Cartwright, B.J. Armstrong, Ron Harper, and Bill Wennington. MJ fans tend to act as if Pip was a run-of-the-mill all-star.

[DonDadda59]

You realize they were on their way to losing in the first round for the fourth consecutive year until he became a temporary starter in 88'? :lol

Good for him?

Team still won 50 with him on the bench.


MJ was the main reason the Bulls succeeded but Pippen was an integral part, as has been attested to by many, including Phil Jackson, Tex Winter, Bill Cartwright, B.J. Armstrong, Ron Harper, and Bill Wennington. MJ fans tend to act as if Pip was a run-of-the-mill all-star.

Dude wasn't even close to being run-of-the mill all star level his first year as a starter, he was still learning on the job... but you're over here trying to attribute the team's success to him when he was no more important than Horace Grant at that point.

[Roundball_Rock]

Dude wasn't even close to being run-of-the mill all star level his first year as a starter, he was still learning on the job... but you're over here trying to attribute the team's success to him when he was no more important than Horace Grant at that point.

16/7/4 as a starter (he was an all-star the following year putting up 17/7/5). Grant was 12/9/2. Not that far off but he clearly was more important than Grant, who was a starter from the beginning of the year when the Bulls were on their way to another 40-45 win season. Pippen actually missed 9 games in 89'; the Bulls went 4-5 without him and 43-30 with him (the difference between 36 wins and 48 wins).

[TheMan]

You realize they were on their way to losing in the first round for the fourth consecutive year until he became a temporary starter in 88'? :lol




MJ was the main reason the Bulls succeeded but Pippen was an integral part, as has been attested to by many, including Phil Jackson, Tex Winter, Bill Cartwright, B.J. Armstrong, Ron Harper, and Bill Wennington. MJ fans tend to act as if Pip was a run-of-the-mill all-star.
Bullshit, I can't speak for everyone but I fully recognize Scottie was an integral part of those titles. You're just overrating him, especially pre-prime Pippen, you know, the version that who along with Grant's shit GM 7, cost us a chip in 90.

[poido123]

Man... so insecure...

Jordan sure loved to chuck em up though, thats the main difference between him & Lebron, he was efficient but thats not the point, this is the difference between those two, Lebron could be that type of a shot taker but he has a Pippen responsibility (point-forward) for his team aswell.... The last time Lebron took anywhere near 30+ shots he scored 61 points and in that game his teammates had to beg him to continue shooting.... and his career high was 36 FGA... while Michael Jordan regularly dropped that FGA and much more (no matter how bad he shot), especially in playoffs / finals... MJ was awesome, dominant and efficient... but compared to Lebron he was much more selfish, more comparable offensive mindset to Kobe.... Lebron is more closer to Magic (not entirely, but more closer)....


What does all this even mean?

That your boy cannot find ways to win with a stacked team? Or that Jordan was an elite scorer who lead his team to many championships?

All you're doing is highlighting what Lebron cannot do to help his team win. Sure he won two championships, but I'd hardly call them convincing or dominant.

[knicksman]

why cant bran stans accept the fact that the more you sacrifice stats, the more chances of winning. Pippen are dime a dozen. In fact lebron had a pippen like player in hughes. The difference bet jordan and lebron is jordan willing to sacrifice stats to accomodate other talents while lebron wouldnt. Its also the same with russell accomodating other talents. Magic, duncan, kobe did it too thats why they were winners. While wilt, robertson, iverson, bran would rather make them scrubs than sacrifice their stats. Thats why they are losers.

[DonDadda59]

16/7/4 as a starter (he was an all-star the following year putting up 17/7/5). Grant was 12/9/2. Not that far off but he clearly was more important than Grant, who was a starter from the beginning of the year when the Bulls were on their way to another 40-45 win season. Pippen actually missed 9 games in 89'; the Bulls went 4-5 without him and 43-30 with him (the difference between 36 wins and 48 wins).

Wow, you have really mastered the art of selective stats :lol

I love how now it's only when Pip started... like he didn't play major minutes in games coming off the bench in the beginning. In fact, here's some #s from the begging of '88-'89...

The Bulls were 6-4 (Pippen having missed 8 of those games) going into an away game against the Clippers. The Bulls would suffer a 4 game losing streak on a West Coast trip. Here's Pip's production/minutes during that run:

11/23 (@ LAC): 20 min, 2 Pts (25% FG)/ 3 Rbs/ 1 Ast/ 3 TO
11/26 (@ DEN): 41 min, 19 Pts (46% FG)/ 8 Rbs/ 3 Ast *Fouled Out*
11/29 (@ GSW): 30 min, 15 Pts (50% FG)/ 7 Rbs/ 0 Ast
11/30 (@ UTH): 29 min, 8 Pts (27% FG)/ 5 Rbs/ 2 Asts/ 4 TO *Fouled Out*

If you look at the Bulls losses when Pip was in the lineup during the early part of the season, you'll notice he played major minutes and usually subpar basketball... but since he wasn't officially a starter, it's the same thing as if he wasn't on the team at all :oldlol:

In fact, his first official game as a starter that season was against the Cavs and the Bulls got smoked with Pippen putting up 6/7/2 on 3-11 shooting in 21 minutes (Horace had 15/11/4/3 on 7-9 shooting and MJ had 43/12/4/3 on 18-30).

But let's give Scottie all the credit for the Bull success that season :rolleyes:

[juju151111]

Wow, you have really mastered the art of selective stats :lol

I love how now it's only when Pip started... like he didn't play major minutes in games coming off the bench in the beginning. In fact, here's some #s from the begging of '88-'89...

The Bulls were 6-4 (Pippen having missed 8 of those games) going into an away game against the Clippers. The Bulls would suffer a 4 game losing streak on a West Coast trip. Here's Pip's production/minutes during that run:

11/23 (@ LAC): 20 min, 2 Pts (25% FG)/ 3 Rbs/ 1 Ast/ 3 TO:coleman:
11/26 (@ DEN): 41 min, 19 Pts (46% FG)/ 8 Rbs/ 3 Ast *Fouled Out*
11/29 (@ GSW): 30 min, 15 Pts (50% FG)/ 7 Rbs/ 0 Ast
11/30 (@ UTH): 29 min, 8 Pts (27% FG)/ 5 Rbs/ 2 Asts/ 4 TO *Fouled Out*

If you look at the Bulls losses when Pip was in the lineup during the early part of the season, you'll notice he played major minutes and usually subpar basketball... but since he wasn't officially a starter, it's the same thing as if he wasn't on the team at all :oldlol:

In fact, his first official game as a starter that season was against the Cavs and the Bulls got smoked with Pippen putting up 6/7/2 on 3-11 shooting in 21 minutes (Horace had 15/11/4/3 on 7-9 shooting and MJ had 43/12/4/3 on 18-30).

But let's give Scottie all the credit for the Bull success that season :rolleyes:
:lol :roll:

[diamenz]

this roundballrock guy :oldlol: :oldlol:

put your energy into something else, dawg.

[diamenz]

double post

[Roundball_Rock]

I love how now it's only when Pip started... like he didn't play major minutes in games coming off the bench in the beginning.

Pippen as a reserve in 89': 25 mpg and 10/5/2
Pippen as a starter in 89': 35 mpg and 16/7/4

It is interesting to see a MJ stan move the goal post to "major minutes." Pippen averaged 29 mpg in the 88' playoffs, and actually started for most of the playoffs, but MJ fans always refer to him as a bench player in reference to the postseason.


If you look at the Bulls losses when Pip was in the lineup during the early part of the season, you'll notice he played major minutes

Here are his MPG before he became a starter:

35, 27, 20, 41, 30, 29, 20, 12, 28, 29, 21, 33, 16, 26, 15, 17.

In games where Pippen played 35+ minutes the Bulls were 24-11. How about when he played 25 minutes or less? 5-6. Also, the Bulls were 43-30 overall when Pippen played and 4-5 when he did not.


In fact, his first official game as a starter that season was against the Cavs and the Bulls got smoked

Losing by 11 is not getting smoked. They also went on to win 9 of their next 11 games. It is funny how you picked his first start, where he played 21 minutes, to misleadingly suggest it had no impact, and ignored the fact that they instantly went on a roll after being stuck at .500 all year. :lol The watershed moment for that team was when Pippen joined the starting lineup.