How valuable is Derrick Rose?

[Roundball_Rock]

How valuable is Derrick Rose? That is a question of some considerable debate, with many considering him one of the worst MVP

[Finger Roll]

until he stops getting injured, I'd say probably not worth the gatorade he's drinking while sitting on the sideline

does anyone believe he actually ever plays a full season again? cause I dont

[Finger Roll]

If he stays healthy, probably valuable enough to get that 1 seed again. I just don't know, hopefully we can see him go back to his old self.

[Roundball_Rock]

He likely will have a healthy career going forward. Cases like Penny, Hill are rare.

[bluechox2]

he has entered grant hills career path

[BlackWhiteGreen]

He is valuable to that team, but less valuable than others would be to that team. If you rank the league's scorers top to bottom, that effectively ranks how valuable each player is to that system. I would like to see him on a different team before I could make a proper evaluation on him from a general value standpoint.

In terms of the MVP, it's considered weak because there were at least 2 players better than him in his own conference, not so much on his performance. I don't think he wins MVP with those numbers in another season when LeBron isn't coming off the Decision. It was also a season between Kobe falling slightly and before Durant really exploded.

[Roundball_Rock]

In terms of the MVP, it's considered weak because there were at least 2 players better than him in his own conference, not so much on his performance. I don't think he wins MVP with those numbers in another season when LeBron isn't coming off the Decision. It was also a season between Kobe falling slightly and before Durant really exploded.

Yeah that is the perception but I think it is unfair. LeBron wasn't going to win that year with or without the Decision. He put up 27/8/7 while Wade posted 26/6/5. Wade capped how many votes LeBron would get that year, although LeBron likely would have finished 2nd absent the Decision. Howard was a better player, probably the second best player in the league that year behind LeBron, but his team was the #4 seed. Other than MJ and KAJ who has won a MVP without having a top record? Rose wasn't the best player in the league or even his conference but several players have won the MVP without being the best player.


He is valuable to that team, but less valuable than others would be to that team. If you rank the league's scorers top to bottom, that effectively ranks how valuable each player is to that system.

Well keep in mind he also was/is Chicago's primary playmaker so they miss that, not just his direct scoring. Carmelo on Chicago would score more than Rose but could still be less valuable than Rose. Rose averaged 8 assists in 2011.

[Meticode]

I don't know the value, but the guy has to play well this season.

[JellyBean]

How valuable are tires on a car? If all of the car parts are there but you have zero tires, where are you going? D-Rose is a huge part of the Bulls success. Sure they can go far with the players that they have. With Rose healthy, they can go a bit further. He is very valuable.

[Pointguard]

You also have to consider it was a new team, new coach, new system, lots of major injuries, a young team, and several teams had far superior talent when the Bulls had the best record. Look at how each superstar handled their new team situation including Lebron. Chicago dominated the elite that year. Miami was under .500 with them. There was no player clearing top ten list in almost any category for the Bulls. No all stars. Just look at Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Mello, and Dirk did when in their new settings. They all underachieved in a big way and had no chance of approaching the best record and most of them were on super talented, veteran teams without major injuries. He definitely had great value. But he has to get back to playing.

[Draz]

Honestly it's too early to tell. Give him a year of conditioning and another year regroup his weak mindset.

[Jacks3]

So you're telling me that one of the best players in the game had huge impact on his team.

Shocking stuff. :eek:

[NumberSix]

They should honestly amnesty Rose.

[Dengness9]

They should honestly amnesty Rose.

They can't. He's not eligible.


Boozer is one of the only remaining amnesty option players left in the entire league actually.

[NumberSix]

I think contracts before the current CBA should count differently that those after.

[Roundball_Rock]

So you're telling me that one of the best players in the game had huge impact on his team.

Shocking stuff. :eek:

The point was not to prove that he had an impact but rather to trigger a discussion on how much of an impact he had.


You also have to consider it was a new team, new coach, new system, lots of major injuries, a young team, and several teams had far superior talent when the Bulls had the best record. Look at how each superstar handled their new team situation including Lebron. Chicago dominated the elite that year. Miami was under .500 with them. There was no player clearing top ten list in almost any category for the Bulls. No all stars. Just look at Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Mello, and Dirk did when in their new settings. They all underachieved in a big way and had no chance of approaching the best record and most of them were on super talented, veteran teams without major injuries. He definitely had great value. But he has to get back to playing.

:applause:

[smoovegittar]

He was great......... I don't know what he can bring now, but he's running out of time. He's crucial to the Bulls if they want to make some noise. I give them another year before they have to seriously consider rebuilding - he can't come back soon enough.

[magnax1]

In 2011 he was probably borderline top 10, so yeah I'd say he's one of the worst MVPs ever.
Guys who were clearly better in 2011
Kobe
CP3
Lebron
DWade
Dwight
Dirk
KD
Melo
I like Rose but that was Dwight's MVP clearly.
Chicago was incredibly deep with the best rebounding and 3rd or so best defense in the league, and the media attributed that to Rose.

[CHi1PriDe]

In 2011 he was probably borderline top 10, so yeah I'd say he's one of the worst MVPs ever.
Guys who were clearly better in 2011
Kobe
CP3
Lebron
DWade
Dwight
Dirk
KD
Melo
I like Rose but that was Dwight's MVP clearly.
Chicago was incredibly deep with the best rebounding and 3rd or so best defense in the league, and the media attributed that to Rose.

Bulls were just all defense and rebounding, other than rose, nobody could create their own shots. Rose was pretty much double teamed all night and Bogans was his SG who can barely hit wide open 3s :facepalm

[yobore]

Bogans was his SG who can barely hit wide open 3s :facepalm
He must have been pretty good when he wasn't open then because he averaged 38%

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bulls franchise?

1) MJ - 5x MVPs
2) Rose - MVP
3) Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

Bulls were just all defense and rebounding, other than rose, nobody could create their own shots. Rose was pretty much double teamed all night and Bogans was his SG who can barely hit wide open 3s :facepalm

Exactly. Without Rose the Bulls' offense is a joke--28th and 30th...The Bulls' success came from great defense, rebounding and Rose elevating the offense to respectability.


Guys who were clearly better in 2011
Kobe
CP3
Lebron
DWade
Dwight
Dirk
KD
Melo

Clearly better? I'll give you LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Dwight and Dirk (in no particular order) but he had legitimate cases over the others that year. You don't win a MVP as a borderline top 10 player.

[nathanjizzle]

Exactly. Without Rose the Bulls' offense is a joke--28th and 30th...The Bulls' success came from great defense, rebounding and Rose elevating the offense to respectability.



Clearly better? I'll give you LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Dwight and Dirk (in no particular order) but he had legitimate cases over the others that year. You don't win a MVP as a borderline top 10 player.

but how was lebron and wade performing better than rose? lebron and wade had a losing record against the top 8 teams in the league and rose and the bulls had a winning record. lebron was known for passing up game winning shots and disappearing in the 4th quarter that season when rose was known for carrying his team in the 4th quarter. just because the name "lebron" is on the back of his jersey means he performed better than rose? i think not.

[LBJ4MVP23]

Way to gloss over 2011 there in your assessment of his value OP.

[PsychoBe]

he's a valuable cheerleader :applause:

[Pointguard]

In 2011 he was probably borderline top 10, so yeah I'd say he's one of the worst MVPs ever.
Guys who were clearly better in 2011
Kobe
CP3
Lebron
DWade
Dwight
Dirk
KD
Melo
I like Rose but that was Dwight's MVP clearly.
Chicago was incredibly deep with the best rebounding and 3rd or so best defense in the league, and the media attributed that to Rose.

So name us the Bulls player that was top ten in anything, allstar, first team? On top of the injuries 57 games to the second and third best players.

The best steady bench player was Taj Gibson who got the lions share of the injured players minutes - he was a 7 ppg 6 rebs per game guy. And that year he didn't have a dream and a prayer for best sixth man. Rookie Omer Asik (12 mins per game and a 3ppg 4rrpg guy) was on the trading block for this whole year (a full three years later) and there wasn't one biter. Then there was Kyle Korver whose shot deserted him after the all star break when Chicago made their big move and dominated the elite. CJ Watson was adequate but this is far from being incredibly deep.

All of the guys you named had another superstar next to them. Heck lets go down the list.

Kobe Has a very experienced roster with a ton championship experience. A top defensive wing. A top 3 PF, The second most versatile SF. A super clutch PG. Best coach ever.

CP3 Didn't have much of a team that year but in his much longer tenure in the league he never dominated the position like Rose did that year ever. Never dominated the elite teams. Doesn't control the pace of the game (he started running with Westbrook). Had a far superior team to the Bulls last year, few injuries not due to flopping, and wasn't approaching the best record in the league.

Lebron
DWade Here's a team that was second defensively with three top offensive players (all of them top two) at their positions and the Bulls had a better record. A much better record against the elite. When teams played the Bulls they knew who they were double teaming. Lebron was the best player in the game but Rose had a bigger burden and did more with less.

Dwight - literally Lost his team due to another MVP candidate humiliating them - how many MVP's lost their team because another player said he going to embarrass the President of operations and DH and company welcomed Lebron like a doormat. Its contradictory to lose a team and be called an MVP. It ain't going to happen.

Rose outscored Dwight in the paint in a critical game in April, not only did the Bulls beat them but also got DH eliminated for the next game. After the Allstar break he wasn't a factor at all. Had panic fits on quick doubles. Sorry, Rose was a better competitor, winner and player without question after the allstar break.

Dirk played well that year but he scored less than Rose, got 7 rebounds per game. Had a very experienced team.

KD
Melo - sorry neither were leaders at this stage of the game (and its only arguable that they are now.) Both were just scorers and neither had the strong focus that gathers their teammates to make them win.

[magnax1]

After the Allstar break he wasn't a factor at all
This goes in the top 5 dumbest things Ive read on ISH. He averaged 23-15 and had the best stretch of his career post all star 2011. He was MVP, lead a trash team with awful defensive players and one of the leagues dumbest offensive coaches to 50 some wins and the 3rd bestdefnse.
As for Roses teams talent his team was ranked 1st in defense and 1st in rebound differential (none of his doing) and 11th in offense (the area he contributed)
They had 3 good starters in boozer deng and noah and 7 other good role players who got and deserved time making them by far the deepest team in the league. Did I say they had the most offensive talent? No but they were clearly the deepest. Rose carried them is something believed only by media retards and bulls homers.

[NZStreetBaller]

Bulls were just all defense and rebounding, other than rose, nobody could create their own shots. Rose was pretty much double teamed all night and Bogans was his SG who can barely hit wide open 3s :facepalm


Isnt defense and rebounding two of the most important keys to winning a game. its part of why the bulls are as good as they are.

[Legends66NBA7]

Derrick Rose is a great player. He's also had a solid supporting cast and coach with him too.

You need both things to compete year in, year out.

[Roundball_Rock]

So name us the Bulls player that was top ten in anything, allstar, first team? On top of the injuries 57 games to the second and third best players.

The best steady bench player was Taj Gibson who got the lions share of the injured players minutes - he was a 7 ppg 6 rebs per game guy. And that year he didn't have a dream and a prayer for best sixth man. Rookie Omer Asik (12 mins per game and a 3ppg 4rrpg guy) was on the trading block for this whole year (a full three years later) and there wasn't one biter. Then there was Kyle Korver whose shot deserted him after the all star break when Chicago made their big move and dominated the elite. CJ Watson was adequate but this is far from being incredibly deep.

All of the guys you named had another superstar next to them. Heck lets go down the list.

Kobe Has a very experienced roster with a ton championship experience. A top defensive wing. A top 3 PF, The second most versatile SF. A super clutch PG. Best coach ever.

CP3 Didn't have much of a team that year but in his much longer tenure in the league he never dominated the position like Rose did that year ever. Never dominated the elite teams. Doesn't control the pace of the game (he started running with Westbrook). Had a far superior team to the Bulls last year, few injuries not due to flopping, and wasn't approaching the best record in the league.

Lebron
DWade Here's a team that was second defensively with three top offensive players (all of them top two) at their positions and the Bulls had a better record. A much better record against the elite. When teams played the Bulls they knew who they were double teaming. Lebron was the best player in the game but Rose had a bigger burden and did more with less.

Dwight - literally Lost his team due to another MVP candidate humiliating them - how many MVP's lost their team because another player said he going to embarrass the President of operations and DH and company welcomed Lebron like a doormat. Its contradictory to lose a team and be called an MVP. It ain't going to happen.

Rose outscored Dwight in the paint in a critical game in April, not only did the Bulls beat them but also got DH eliminated for the next game. After the Allstar break he wasn't a factor at all. Had panic fits on quick doubles. Sorry, Rose was a better competitor, winner and player without question after the allstar break.

Dirk played well that year but he scored less than Rose, got 7 rebounds per game. Had a very experienced team.

KD
Melo - sorry neither were leaders at this stage of the game (and its only arguable that they are now.) Both were just scorers and neither had the strong focus that gathers their teammates to make them win.

:applause:

[Johnny Jones]

Holy shit. :applause:

[Legends66NBA7]

In 2011 he was probably borderline top 10, so yeah I'd say he's one of the worst MVPs ever.
Guys who were clearly better in 2011
Kobe
CP3
Lebron
DWade
Dwight
Dirk
KD
Melo
I like Rose but that was Dwight's MVP clearly.
Chicago was incredibly deep with the best rebounding and 3rd or so best defense in the league, and the media attributed that to Rose.

I don't know about Melo being clearly above Rose. I didn't think he was better than Rose that year. Same with Paul. Paul's peak is better but he was injured that particular season and I don't think you can really say he was clearly better.

The rest was either debatable or clearly above Rose, though.

[Pointguard]

I don't know about Melo being clearly above Rose. I didn't think he was better than Rose that year. Same with Paul. Paul's peak is better but he was injured that particular season and I don't think you can really say he was clearly better.

The rest was either debatable or clearly above Rose, though.
Who is clearly above him? And please state why you think so.

[Pointguard]

This goes in the top 5 dumbest things Ive read on ISH. He averaged 23-15 and had the best stretch of his career post all star 2011.
I said he wasn't a factor. I don't think you know what the word means. If you are into measuring stupidity at least get your vocabulary up. I don't care if he was 30 and 17 and had the best stretch of his life. You are a factor when you mean something. When Dwight played the critical game against Rose there was no reason for Rose to score more points in the paint than him. Sorry, that shouldn't happen. That game meant a lot to the Magic. Howard was getting suspended for games (twice). His bad games cost them the third seed.


He was MVP, lead a trash team with awful defensive players and one of the leagues dumbest offensive coaches to 50 some wins and the 3rd bestdefnse.
As for Roses teams talent his team was ranked 1st in defense and 1st in rebound differential (none of his doing) and 11th in offense (the area he contributed)
It was a team without creators. A team without a steady shooter after the allstar break after Rose. A team that couldn't even break a trap in the playoffs. Boose didn't know the few plays they ran. Noah was at DH would be complete trash on a team like that. I don't care how good the defense is.


They had 3 good starters in boozer deng and noah and 7 other good role players who got and deserved time making them by far the deepest team in the league. Did I say they had the most offensive talent? No but they were clearly the deepest. Rose carried them is something believed only by media retards and bulls homers.
Did we not already explain that Noah and Boose missed 57 games? Both were sat down in the 4th quarter in the playoffs for two games. I think the Bulls were behind 19 games in the 4th quarter that they won. Who do you think they turned to. Boose had to stay out of the plays because he didn't know them. Noah got his 12 ppg. Sorry there were no players that year that were doing anything close to that. Dirk might have been close.

You don't get an MVP by being humiliated by another player and losing your team because of it. It just doesn't work like that. Value-able is another word that you apparently don't know the meaning of. Oh, and you are a hater. The voting wasn't close.

[GimmeThat]

post injury, they are probably ECF contenders

but think of the amount of PG that you put on the current Bulls without adding any other pieces and they make it to the 2nd round

Kemba Walker 17/6/4 last season
Damien Lillard 20/5/3
Ty Lawson 17/8/3

all 3 players capable of playing defense.

[navy]

post injury, they are probably ECF contenders

but think of the amount of PG that you put on the current Bulls without adding any other pieces and they make it to the 2nd round

Kemba Walker 17/6/4 last season
Damien Lillard 20/5/3
Ty Lawson 17/8/3

all 3 players capable of playing defense.
:biggums:

[GimmeThat]

I don't know about Melo being clearly above Rose. I didn't think he was better than Rose that year. Same with Paul. Paul's peak is better but he was injured that particular season and I don't think you can really say he was clearly better.

The rest was either debatable or clearly above Rose, though.

Bull's record that season justified him receiving the MVP award.

I'm not going to say teams figured him out in the post season.
But they were really close to getting past the old Celtics

remember, Lebron got past the old Pistons eventually at a young age as well.

[GimmeThat]

:biggums:


Mr. Lillard can create better than the other candidates, and having Gibson/Noah behind him protecting the rim, I believe that forcing the opposing guard to either drive base line or towards the weakside is something he is very capable of doing so.

[Pointguard]

Mr. Lillard can create better than the other candidates, and having Gibson/Noah behind him protecting the rim, I believe that forcing the opposing guard to either drive base line or towards the weakside is something he is very capable of doing so.
Thibes runs his players to the ground. I think Rose was successful because he was big. And used his strength to keep PGs out of the paint. Not one star point guard came off on Rose that year. That's something that neither CP3 or Westbrook have ever done. The team also had the best perimeter defense in the league. Otherwise, Lillard could hit those clutch shots galore. Taking over a first year team and to keep driving all season long is the part. The team thrived on Rose continuously creating chaos.

[Jameerthefear]

Rose is no doubt the worst MVP of alltime. The media won it for him. It should have been Dwight's.