tim duncans greatness vs the spurs system

[mehyaM24]

from 99-14, the spurs won with more HOF (some potential, but all in their prime) than either kobe,shaq,lebron,dirk

popovich is the GOAT coach. jackson had all the GOAT-talent players. fact.

Shaq won with:
HOF kobe
HOF horry
HOF fisher
HOF richmond (past his prime)
HOF payton (past his prime)
HOF mourning (past his prime)
HOF wade
4 HOFers in their prime, 7 total

Kobe won with:
HOF shaq
HOF horry
HOF gasol
HOF fisher
HOF richmond (past his prime)
4 HOFers in their prime, 5 total

Dirk won with:
HOF jason kidd
0 HOFers in their prime, 1 total

Lebron won with:
HOF Wade
HOF Bosh
HOF Allen
2 HOFers in their prime, 3 total

Duncan and spurs won with:
GOAT coach
HOF drob
HOF manu
HOF parker
HOF bowen
HOF horry
HOF finley
HOF leonard
7 HOFers in their prime, 7 total

we can surmise that duncan, when factoring in popovich the GOAT coach, played with by FAR the most help...i mean the spurs had the best win percentage of the 2000s.

discuss

[Artillery]

jackson is the GOAT coach. 11 rings>5 rings. fact.


who kobe and lakers won with:
GOAT coach - 11 rings
HOF shaq - prime top ten all-time great
HOF gasol - 2nd best Euro player in post-Jordan era(after Dirk)
HOF artest - dpoy winner
HOF horry - younger version
HOF glen rice
HOF odom
HOF bynum
HOF richmond (old, dirt)
GOAT role player/clutch 3 pt shooter Fisher

who duncan won with:
HOF drob (old, dirt)
HOF manu (injury prone)
HOF parker
HOF bowen
HOF horry (old, dirt)
HOF finley (old, dirt)
GOAT 3PT shooter kerr

this is why i say you cant compare duncan/lebron individual brilliance with the LAKERS' success

THIS list should be in every kobe/lakers thread :rockon:

[Lebron23]

Tim Duncan is/was the engine of the san antonio spurs success in this decade.

2x MVP, 3x Finals MVP, and 5x NBA champion.

[mehyaM24]

THIS list should be in every kobe/lakers thread :rockon:

you can do one for dirk and lebron too :cheers:

[SupermanOnSteroids]

http://ed_wp-content_v2.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/pop-dancing-parade.gif

[mehyaM24]

Tim Duncan is/was the engine of the san antonio spurs success in this decade.

2x MVP, 3x Finals MVP, and 5x NBA champion.

duncan also played with the most HOFers in their prime. pretty big advantage IMO

[Artillery]

duncan also played with the most HOFers in their prime. pretty big advantage IMO

who kobe and lakers won with:
GOAT coach - 11 rings
HOF shaq
HOF gasol
HOF artest
HOF horry
HOF glen rice
HOF odom
HOF bynum
HOF richmond
HOF fisher

9 HOFers in their prime, 9 total

[PsychoBe]

who kobe and lakers won with:
GOAT coach - 11 rings
HOF shaq
HOF gasol
HOF artest
HOF horry
HOF glen rice
HOF odom
HOF bynum
HOF richmond
HOF fisher

9 HOFers in their prime, 9 total

dis nikka said odom, bynum, gasol, and artest are hofers :roll: :roll: :roll:

where you from bro i bet you got good weed :oldlol:

[Kungfro]

I feel like you might be reaching a bit on some of these HOF picks.

[mehyaM24]

who kobe and lakers won with:
GOAT coach - 11 rings
HOF shaq
HOF gasol
HOF artest
HOF horry
HOF glen rice
HOF odom
HOF bynum
HOF richmond
HOF fisher

9 HOFers in their prime, 9 total

if we're calling some of these busts/old players HOFErs/in their prime then lets boil it down like this:

duncan:
HOF drob
HOF avery johnson
HOF sean elliot
HOF steve kerr
HOF steve smith
HOF manu
HOF parker
HOF bowen
HOF horry
HOF leonard

10 HOFers in their prime, 10 total


I feel like you might be reaching a bit on some of these HOF picks.

i dont think so. those guys are all potential HOFers/shoe-ins

unless you're talking about artillery, then i agree.

[Artillery]

dis nikka said odom, bynum, gasol, and artest are hofers :roll: :roll: :roll:

where you from bro i bet you got good weed :oldlol:

Are Bowen, Finley, Horry, Leonard HOFers too? Just following the OP's criteria for HOF selection.

[Lebron23]

The Spurs are perfectly build around Tim Duncan. Without Duncan I don't think the Spurs are even a playoffs teams in the west, or just an 8th seed team.

He was still their most important player in the 2013 and 2014 playoffs.

[mehyaM24]

Are Bowen, Finley, Horry, Leonard HOFers too? Just following the OP's criteria for HOF selection.

absolutely

now that we have this HOF discussion locked up (duncan finishes with 10), lets talk about the lack of help dirk and lebron had.

IMO dirk wins at least 6 titles in pop's system. lebron? sky is the limit honestly

[SCdac]

Tim Duncan + 14 HOF players + 8 HOF staff members + HOF photographer = most stacked team ever :rolleyes:

http://www.rantsports.com/nba/files/2014/04/San-Antonio-Spurs11.jpg

[bukowski81]

from 99-14, the spurs won with more HOF (some potential, but all in their prime) than either kobe,shaq,lebron,dirk

popovich is the GOAT coach. jackson had all the GOAT-talent players. fact.

Shaq won with:
HOF kobe
HOF horry
HOF fisher
HOF richmond (past his prime)
HOF payton (past his prime)
HOF mourning (past his prime)
HOF wade
4 HOFers in their prime, 7 total

Kobe won with:
HOF shaq
HOF horry
HOF gasol
HOF fisher
HOF richmond (past his prime)
4 HOFers in their prime, 5 total

Dirk won with:
HOF jason kidd
0 HOFers in their prime, 1 total

Lebron won with:
HOF Wade
HOF Bosh
HOF Allen
2 HOFers in their prime, 3 total

Duncan and spurs won with:
GOAT coach
HOF drob
HOF manu
HOF parker
HOF bowen
HOF horry
HOF finley
HOF leonard
7 HOFers in their prime, 7 total

we can surmise that duncan, when factoring in popovich the GOAT coach, played with by FAR the most help...i mean the spurs had the best win percentage of the 2000s.

discuss

You must have started watching basketball very recently, during Duncan prime, the spurs system was "throw it to Tim Duncan"

[r0drig0lac]

some guys just do not quit

[Artillery]

who kobe and lakers won with:
GOAT coach - 11 rings
HOF shaq
HOF gasol
HOF artest
HOF horry
HOF glen rice
HOF odom
HOF bynum
HOF richmond
HOF fisher
HOF ron harper
HOF trevor ariza
HOF rick fox

12 HOFers total Kobe played with

:bowdown: GOAT help for Kobe

In addition, look at the HOFers Kobe couldn't win with:

Malone
Payton
Dwight
Nash

16 HOFers total for Kobe

Phil Jackson/triangle offense system along with GOAT teammates won the Lakers five championships. Kobe with the GOAT help in NBA history.

[Is He Ill]

I know you're trolling hard, but w/e. Horry, Robinson, and Finley were not in their prime. Bowen and Horry are not HOFers. Both of these guys were nothing more than specialists. Also, Finley and Leonard are not HOFers.

[mehyaM24]

who kobe and lakers won with:
GOAT coach - 11 rings
HOF shaq
HOF gasol
HOF artest
HOF horry
HOF glen rice
HOF odom
HOF bynum
HOF richmond
HOF fisher
HOF ron harper
HOF trevor ariza
HOF rick fox

12 HOFers total Kobe played with

:bowdown: GOAT help for Kobe

In addition, look at the HOFers Kobe couldn't win with:

Malone
Payton
Dwight
Nash

16 HOFers total for Kobe

Phil Jackson/triangle offense system along with GOAT teammates won the Lakers five championships. Kobe with the GOAT help in NBA history.

on the last page, we already established that duncan played with 10 HOFers and bryant played with 9.

moving on now...

[mehyaM24]

I know you're trolling hard, but w/e. Horry, Robinson, and Finley were not in their prime. Bowen and Horry are not HOFers. Both of these guys were nothing more than specialists. Also, Finley and Leonard are not HOFers.

horry was still very much in his prime in 2005. david robinson was in 1999 and finley was in 2007 (look at his production in the playoffs).

bowen and horry are hall-of famers for the simple reason being, they won rings while hitting big shots/playing GOAT defense.

leonard is a potential HOF (as i stated in my OP)

duncan has won with 10 HOFers [some potential] in their prime
kobe has won with 9 HOFers [some potential] in their prime (will edit later)
shaq has won with 4 HOFers in their prime
lebron has won with 2 HOFers in their prime
dirk has won with 0 HOFers in their prime

[Artillery]

on the last page, we already established that duncan played with 10 HOFers and bryant played with 9.

moving on now...

In the first post, you stated that duncan played with 7 HOFers. Then changed it to 10. I'm entitled to changing it as well.

Moving on...

[aboss4real24]

hes overrated

talent wise not even a top 5 pf

he jus fell into a great situation

[Artillery]

How did Kobe only win 5 rings while playing with 16 HOFers? And the GOAT coach too.

[mehyaM24]

In the first post, you stated that duncan played with 7 HOFers. Then changed it to 10. I'm entitled to changing it as well.

Moving on...

because you changed the criteria

by your criteria, duncan (the spurs) have 10, kobe 9

keep up, good sir

[mehyaM24]

hes overrated

talent wise not even a top 5 pf

he jus fell into a great situation

exactly.

how many rings do you think lebron, dirk and shaq get in the spurs system?

[Artillery]

because you changed the criteria

by your criteria, the duncan (the spurs) have 10, kobe 9

keep up, good sir

I didn't change anything. I followed your original criteria with my first list. You then changed the criteria which is why I modified the list.

16 HOFers for Kobe and only 5 rings to show for it

[mehyaM24]

I didn't change anything. I followed your original criteria with my first list. You then changed the criteria which is why I modified the list.

my original criteria was...in the op

you modified my HOF list by adding old players/underachievers

i accept that. so by your logic, duncan has 10 and kobe has 9

i actually like your ranking HOF picks better. thanks :cheers:

10 HOF > 9 HOF > 4 HOF > 2 HOF > 0 HOF

[westsideozzie]

The only Hall of Famers Tim Duncan played with in their primes were Ginobli and Parker. Everyone else including Robinson was a shell of themselves at the time. Horry, Kerr, Bowen,Smith etc are not Hall worthy, not by a mile.

[mehyaM24]

The only Hall of Famers Tim Duncan played with in their primes were Ginobli and Parker. Everyone else including Robinson was a shell of themselves at the time. Horry, Kerr, Bowen,Smith etc are not Hall worthy, not by a mile.

dont agree with this, but even if this were the case

he'd have won with more HOFers in their prime than shaq, kobe, dirk and lebron (lebron won titles after wade exited his prime in 2011)

[Artillery]

my original criteria was...in the op

you modified my HOF list by adding old players/underachievers

Nah, you added the old players first putting Finley/Horry under Duncan and then leaving them out under Kobe. I followed your criteria. You changed the criteria adding guys like Steve Smith under Duncan. I added guys like Ron Harper.

Final count for Lakers and kobe:

12 HOFers duing championship runs
16 HOFers total

[mehyaM24]

Nah, you added the old players first putting Finley/Horry under Duncan and then leaving them out under Kobe. I followed your criteria. You changed the criteria adding guys like Steve Smith under Duncan. I added guys like Ron Harper.

Final count for Lakers and kobe:

12 HOFers duing championship runs
16 HOFers total

lol

i have horry under kobe AND shaq in my op

we already boiled it down in the spurs favor, 10-9

let us proceed

[Artillery]

lol

i have horry under kobe AND shaq in my op

You originally didn't.


lwe already boiled it down in the spurs favor, 10-9

let us proceed

You changed the rules, I modified the list. Final tally:

who kobe and lakers won with:
GOAT coach - 11 rings
HOF shaq
HOF gasol
HOF artest
HOF horry
HOF glen rice
HOF odom
HOF bynum
HOF richmond
HOF fisher
HOF ron harper
HOF horace grant
HOF trevor ariza
HOF rick fox

13 HOFers total Kobe played with

GOAT help for Kobe

In addition, look at the HOFers Kobe couldn't win with:

Malone
Payton
Dwight
Nash

17 HOFers total for Kobe

boiled down:

13-10 in the Lakers favor

let us proceed

[mehyaM24]

You originally didn't.

what? my first post came before anyone here

:hammerhead:


You changed the rules, I modified the list

you only get one modifer. you modified it to 10

boiled down, spurs 10 - kobe 9

dat spurs franchise tho :bowdown:

[CoastalRyan]

dont agree with this, but even if this were the case

he'd have won with more HOFers in their prime than shaq, kobe, dirk and lebron (lebron won titles after wade exited his prime in 2011)
Your definition of "prime" and "HoF" drastically differs from everyone else. Certainly miles away from any hard truth are actual facts that could be referenced.

Robinson's decline began the year prior to his injury which led to the Duncan pick. Once healthy again he had one strong season prior to passing the torch and then for the next 3 years declined steadily in every statistical category sans FT%.

No where near his prime and the talent level of TD allowed him to really hang on as a compliment player and defensive presence longer than expected. Especially that last season where things took a big dive.

Obviously Manu and Parker are HoFers who played with TD in their prime but there isn't anyone else listed even close.

Finley, Kerr and Horry were are role players filling a niche and far from significant rotation players.

Bowen is a great mention but a specialist at best.

Leonard has great upside but the debate at this point is that he's either not reached his prime yet or already peaked. Certainly miles away from HoF consideration. We don't even know if he's going to be a perennial all star going forward.

...and I'm a huge Leonard fan.

If there's one thing the Spurs liked to do in the 2000's it was rounding out their roster with over the hill but proven vets.

With the exception of the big 3 everyone mentioned sans Leonard and Bowen were all on the tail end of their career.

I just don't see anything even remotely accurate being tossed around here. This thread is 90% speculation and 10% projection and wishful trolling.

[mehyaM24]

@coastalryan - a good post to be sure. repped - but robinson (99), manu and parker were all in their primes

for comparisons sake, shaq won with wade and kobe in their prime

kobe won with shaq and pau

lebron won with bosh

its not a knock on duncan, who's a top 10 player of all time. i just dont think hes as good as the guys mentioned in my op (dirk,lebron,shaq,kobe etc).

i also vehemently disagree your take on leonard. he will be a multiple all-star/HOF candidate

[Anaximandro1]

You must have started watching basketball very recently, during Duncan prime, the spurs system was "throw it to Tim Duncan"

Yeah.

prime Duncan was the system


Duncan Closing out the Lakers (33 points, 1999 WCSF Game 4) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aeK5xFUKIE)

Duncan 46 pts 14 rebs vs Jazz 2000 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgUQWV1H3aA)

Shaq vs Duncan (2003 WCSF Game 6, 37 points/16 rebounds) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6AgYWdoBQ)

Duncan Game 1 2003 Nba Finals 32/20/7/6/3

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwWqsbANx6g)Tim Duncan - 41 points vs Dallas Mavericks Full Highlights (2006 WCSF GM7) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbEWxeenR84)

Duncan (2007 WCSF Game 3, 33 pts, 19 rb) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNVguJx1oQ)


Robinson, Parker and Ginobili are Hall of Famers, but the undeniable fact is that prime Duncan won 4 titles without an All NBA teammate because their primes didn't quite coincide.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0kTDaKTmeh8/U665PtShNmI/AAAAAAAADH8/H0kNqdQf7sk/s1600/3.jpg

Bill Simmons (May 11, 2007): Duncan is wildly underrated
(http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070509)

Assuming the Spurs win the 2007 title and Duncan captures his fourth Finals MVP award (both decent bets), his first professional decade will have concluded with four rings, two regular-season MVP awards and nine first-team All-NBA nods.

His best teammates have been David Robinson (who turned 33 in Duncan's rookie year), Manu Ginobili (never a top-15 player) and Tony Parker (ditto).

In fact, Duncan has never played for a dominant team; the Spurs have never had quite enough talent to roll through the league.

Trapped at the top of the standings, they've been forced to rely on others' failed lottery picks, foreign rookies, journeymen and head cases with baggage.

Zoom through San Antonio's past 10 rosters on basketball-reference.com some time.

You'll be shocked. Tim Duncan has never played on a great basketball team.

Not once.


No one has done more with less than Tim Duncan. No one. The Spurs' record without Duncan,Robinson and Ginobili speaks volumes.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RW-lbusTKiQ/U7Z5pXondII/AAAAAAAADKc/z2CQR7ZZFEM/s1600/1.jpg


The reason is very simple : prime Duncan does everything well ... he's got pretty much the whole package : elite low-post scorer, great facilitator, phenomenal offensive rebounder, elite defensive rebounder, one of the best rim protectors and defensive anchors,great teammate who takes all the blame on himself...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LRxpY6UxPMk/U7fsdGsvWRI/AAAAAAAADN8/SWUJLd0Nxyw/s1600/2.jpg


Duncan had to do everything in the early 2000s ... one man army. The Spurs reached the WCF in 2001, the WCSF in 2002 and won the championship in 2003.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dQXOSULK58U/U6yFUr-CTNI/AAAAAAAADGI/Kfx9FBFs3jI/s1600/2.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tZKU2E9Bg3k/U6wKwSGo8kI/AAAAAAAADF4/-et_Dz1ZupM/s1600/8.jpg


It's hard to envision Shaq winning with Speedy Claxton / Stephen Jax playing PG / SG at crunch time.

Shaq was a one dimensional player ... Shaq's legacy should be recognized as the product of Phil Jackson's triangle offense.

[gts]

Hall of Fame is being tossed around WAAAAY too liberally here.. :lol

But if thats what it takes to push and agenda have it

[mehyaM24]

Hall of Fame is being tossed around WAAAAY too liberally here.. :lol

But if thats what it takes to push and agenda have it

gts, you're one of the few GOOD laker posters here

who in your estimation are shoe-in HOFers? guys in their prime that duncan, kobe and shaq won with.

[T_L_P]

@coastalryan - a good post to be sure. repped - but robinson (99), manu and parker were all in their primes

for comparisons sake, shaq won with wade and kobe in their prime

kobe won with shaq and pau

lebron won with bosh

its not a knock on duncan, who's a top 10 player of all time. i just dont think hes as good as the guys mentioned in my op (dirk,lebron,shaq,kobe etc).

i also vehemently disagree your take on leonard. he will be a multiple all-star/HOF candidate

Kobe in 00: 21/5/4
Kobe in 01: 29/7/6
Kobe in 02: 27/6/5

Wade in 06: 28/6/6

Robinson in 99: 16/10/3
Robinson in 03: 8/6/1

Parker in 03: 15/3/4
Parker in 05: 17/3/4
Parker in 07: 21/3/6

Manu in 03: 9/4/3
Manu in 05: 21/6/4
Manu in 07: 17/6/4

You see the differences there? Prime Parker/Manu and slightly past-his-prime Robinson simply cannot compare to prime Wade or Kobe. But you're obviously incapable of seeing it.

Also, here's Terry's stats as a Maverick: 17/3/4
And here's Horry as a Spur: 5/4/1

But of course you only mentioned the Hall of Famer, a guy who's unlikely to make it anyway? Like I said, your agenda is weak: absolutely nobody buys what you say.

[Artillery]

Lebron
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

Best players in the post-Jordan era and TWO of them played on the same team. Imagine if Lebron or Duncan got to play with a top ten all-time great in his prime.

[mehyaM24]

Kobe in 00: 21/5/4
Kobe in 01: 29/7/6
Kobe in 02: 27/6/5

Wade in 06: 28/6/6

Robinson in 99: 16/10/3
Robinson in 03: 8/6/1

Parker in 03: 15/3/4
Parker in 05: 17/3/4
Parker in 07: 21/3/6

Manu in 03: 9/4/3
Manu in 05: 21/6/4
Manu in 07: 17/6/4

manu and parker in 05 > kobe in 00
manu and parker in 05 > kobe in 01
manu and parker in 05 > kobe in 02
manu and parker in 07 > kobe in 00
manu and parker in 07 > kobe in 01
manu and parker in 07 > kobe in 02

manu and parker in 05 > wade in 06
manu and parker in 07 > wade in 06

nobody but duncan had the fortune (nobody on this list i mentioned in the op) of playing with 2 HOFers in their prime

i've also contended that manu/parker were the spurs' leaders/best players from 07-on.

keep up people

[mehyaM24]

Lebron
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

Best players in the post-Jordan era and TWO of them played on the same team. Imagine if Lebron or Duncan got to play with a top ten all-time great in his prime.

im willing to put duncan ahead of kobe,

but shaq and lebron are in a class of their own

[T_L_P]

Lebron
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

Best players in the post-Jordan era and TWO of them played on the same team. Imagine if Lebron or Duncan got to play with a top ten all-time great in his prime.

The OP is just a huge idiot -- or troll.

He's basically comparing prime Bowen to peak Wade, because to him they are both simply Hall of Famers in their prime. :roll:

Wade scored three times as many points as Shaq in the 06 Finals. Shaq scored three times as many as Kobe in 00. When did Duncan ever get to play with someone significantly better than him? 17/3/6 Tony Parker?

[CoastalRyan]

@coastalryan - a good post to be sure. repped - but robinson (99), manu and parker were all in their primes

for comparisons sake, shaq won with wade and kobe in their prime

kobe won with shaq and pau

lebron won with bosh

its not a knock on duncan, who's a top 10 player of all time. i just dont think hes as good as the guys mentioned in my op (dirk,lebron,shaq,kobe etc).

i also vehemently disagree your take on leonard. he will be a multiple all-star/HOF candidateWhat exactly is it that gives you the impression that Robinson was in his prime?

If not for TD he probably would have been out of the league within 2 years of that injury season?

With the exception of courtesy AS selections he was no better than 2nd team honors after 98.

He was clearly on the end of his career. Prior to injury he averaged 37 minutes per game. His last 5 years he averaged below 30 minutes per game.

His prime was clearly over TD's rookie year.

You can disagree with me all you want but the Leonard talk is pure speculation. He just finished his 3rd season with 13ppg and 6rpg. He's a career 11ppg and 6rpg. Hardly HoF numbers. He has shown moments of greatness and the ability to work unselfishly in a good system. I'll give him that.

Hopefully the best of Kawhi has yet to come but again that "prime" will be after TD is retired.

[CoastalRyan]

Kobe in 00: 21/5/4
Kobe in 01: 29/7/6
Kobe in 02: 27/6/5

Wade in 06: 28/6/6

Robinson in 99: 16/10/3
Robinson in 03: 8/6/1

Parker in 03: 15/3/4
Parker in 05: 17/3/4
Parker in 07: 21/3/6

Manu in 03: 9/4/3
Manu in 05: 21/6/4
Manu in 07: 17/6/4

You see the differences there? Prime Parker/Manu and slightly past-his-prime Robinson simply cannot compare to prime Wade or Kobe. But you're obviously incapable of seeing it.

Also, here's Terry's stats as a Maverick: 17/3/4
And here's Horry as a Spur: 5/4/1

But of course you only mentioned the Hall of Famer, a guy who's unlikely to make it anyway? Like I said, your agenda is weak: absolutely nobody buys what you say.This is as telling as it gets.

[Carbine]

This thread was funny.

[Warners0]

Yeah.

prime Duncan was the system


Duncan Closing out the Lakers (33 points, 1999 WCSF Game 4) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aeK5xFUKIE)

Duncan 46 pts 14 rebs vs Jazz 2000 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgUQWV1H3aA)

Shaq vs Duncan (2003 WCSF Game 6, 37 points/16 rebounds) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6AgYWdoBQ)

Duncan Game 1 2003 Nba Finals 32/20/7/6/3

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwWqsbANx6g)Tim Duncan - 41 points vs Dallas Mavericks Full Highlights (2006 WCSF GM7) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbEWxeenR84)

Duncan (2007 WCSF Game 3, 33 pts, 19 rb) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNVguJx1oQ)


Robinson, Parker and Ginobili are Hall of Famers, but the undeniable fact is that prime Duncan won 4 titles without an All NBA teammate because their primes didn't quite coincide.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0kTDaKTmeh8/U665PtShNmI/AAAAAAAADH8/H0kNqdQf7sk/s1600/3.jpg

Bill Simmons (May 11, 2007): Duncan is wildly underrated
(http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070509)


No one has done more with less than Tim Duncan. No one. The Spurs' record without Duncan,Robinson and Ginobili speaks volumes.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RW-lbusTKiQ/U7Z5pXondII/AAAAAAAADKc/z2CQR7ZZFEM/s1600/1.jpg


The reason is very simple : prime Duncan does everything well ... he's got pretty much the whole package : elite low-post scorer, great facilitator, phenomenal offensive rebounder, elite defensive rebounder, one of the best rim protectors and defensive anchors,great teammate who takes all the blame on himself...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LRxpY6UxPMk/U7fsdGsvWRI/AAAAAAAADN8/SWUJLd0Nxyw/s1600/2.jpg


Duncan had to do everything in the early 2000s ... one man army. The Spurs reached the WCF in 2001, the WCSF in 2002 and won the championship in 2003.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dQXOSULK58U/U6yFUr-CTNI/AAAAAAAADGI/Kfx9FBFs3jI/s1600/2.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tZKU2E9Bg3k/U6wKwSGo8kI/AAAAAAAADF4/-et_Dz1ZupM/s1600/8.jpg


It's hard to envision Shaq winning with Speedy Claxton / Stephen Jax playing PG / SG at crunch time.

Shaq was a one dimensional player ... Shaq's legacy should be recognized as the product of Phil Jackson's triangle offense.

Game Set Match.

This is a stupid debate.

This debate only exist is because people too young don't remember how great he was and want to hate because he isn't flashy or people who remember him didn't really take the time really study his career like they do with Lebron, Kobe, Shaq and Jordan because those guys are marketable more entertaining players than Duncan.

I used to remember trying to get my friends to watch spurs games and they never wanted too.

There are no experts on the greatness of Tim Duncan because they exceeded everyone's expectations, because the spurs were never supposed to be this good.

He is the best player to ever do it. No one has won more with less than him.

And he did it in one spot. In a small market where your getting the leftover free agents.

[houston]

Manu and Parker production together equal the same as Kobe,Wade Pippen........ etc. Hell they both made All-nba/all-star team multiple times during their careers. No team never won without two all-star quality players playing effective roles on their teams.

[houston]

03 Spurs.


Still had two hall of fame bigs anchoring the defense for the team with a strong defensive wing.

I always compare 03 Spurs to the 94 Rockets, 04 Pistons and 77 Blazers. All those teams had All-nba/all-defense/all-star big(Duncan,Dream,Walton,Wallace with another all-star quality big helping them win(Robinson,Thorpe,Lucas,Wallace).

[The Choken One]

The players getting HOF tags in this thread are ridiculous.

You people are on a basketball forum ... with some of the suggestions I'm convinced some of you haven't even watched a game in your life. What the actual ****?

and ps, if the objective of this thread is to diminish Duncan, that's not possible. The greatest PF to ever play and arguably a top 5 player ever considering what he's accomplish, his level of play and how long he's been getting it done for.

[T_L_P]

Still had two hall of fame bigs anchoring the defense for the team with a strong defensive wing.

I always compare 03 Spurs to the 94 Rockets, 04 Pistons and 77 Blazers. All those teams had All-nba/all-defense/all-star big(Duncan,Dream,Walton,Wallace with another all-star quality big helping them win(Robinson,Thorpe,Lucas,Wallace).

The 94 and 03 comparison is valid, but only because those two teams only had one legit star player.

Robinson was 38 years old, could barely play 20 minutes a game, and averaged about 8 points and 6 rebounds. He wasn't close to being an All-Star type. :confusedshrug:

[KNOW1EDGE]

This thread is straight nonsense.

Ive never heard of a "system player" who is also considered the greatest of all time at his position.

[houston]

The 94 and 03 comparison is valid, but only because those two teams only had one legit star player.

Robinson was 38 years old, could barely play 20 minutes a game, and averaged about 8 points and 6 rebounds. He wasn't close to being an All-Star type. :confusedshrug:


Still was a starter on the team. Still average 2 blocks a game and the team second leading rebounder. Still a hall of famer who was a role player on the squad. Together they was The Spurs Twin Towers hell really the only successful ones to date.

As for the 94 Rockets they just beat a Knick team that was mirror to them except Hakeem and Thorpe was better than the Knicks main players lol.

[Big#50]

Second greatest player ever.

[booonkers]

Yeah.

prime Duncan was the system


Duncan Closing out the Lakers (33 points, 1999 WCSF Game 4) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aeK5xFUKIE)

Duncan 46 pts 14 rebs vs Jazz 2000 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgUQWV1H3aA)

Shaq vs Duncan (2003 WCSF Game 6, 37 points/16 rebounds) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6AgYWdoBQ)

Duncan Game 1 2003 Nba Finals 32/20/7/6/3

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwWqsbANx6g)Tim Duncan - 41 points vs Dallas Mavericks Full Highlights (2006 WCSF GM7) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbEWxeenR84)

Duncan (2007 WCSF Game 3, 33 pts, 19 rb) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNVguJx1oQ)


Robinson, Parker and Ginobili are Hall of Famers, but the undeniable fact is that prime Duncan won 4 titles without an All NBA teammate because their primes didn't quite coincide.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0kTDaKTmeh8/U665PtShNmI/AAAAAAAADH8/H0kNqdQf7sk/s1600/3.jpg

Bill Simmons (May 11, 2007): Duncan is wildly underrated
(http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070509)


No one has done more with less than Tim Duncan. No one. The Spurs' record without Duncan,Robinson and Ginobili speaks volumes.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RW-lbusTKiQ/U7Z5pXondII/AAAAAAAADKc/z2CQR7ZZFEM/s1600/1.jpg


The reason is very simple : prime Duncan does everything well ... he's got pretty much the whole package : elite low-post scorer, great facilitator, phenomenal offensive rebounder, elite defensive rebounder, one of the best rim protectors and defensive anchors,great teammate who takes all the blame on himself...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LRxpY6UxPMk/U7fsdGsvWRI/AAAAAAAADN8/SWUJLd0Nxyw/s1600/2.jpg


Duncan had to do everything in the early 2000s ... one man army. The Spurs reached the WCF in 2001, the WCSF in 2002 and won the championship in 2003.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dQXOSULK58U/U6yFUr-CTNI/AAAAAAAADGI/Kfx9FBFs3jI/s1600/2.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tZKU2E9Bg3k/U6wKwSGo8kI/AAAAAAAADF4/-et_Dz1ZupM/s1600/8.jpg


It's hard to envision Shaq winning with Speedy Claxton / Stephen Jax playing PG / SG at crunch time.

Shaq was a one dimensional player ... Shaq's legacy should be recognized as the product of Phil Jackson's triangle offense.
/thread

[Artillery]

:oldlol: mehyaM24/robertshaw/pastis just got bukakked by everyone in this thread

[Anaximandro1]

I came to realize OP was right.


1999 Playoffs

Great performance by Shaq.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_g3MrcCxPV0/U7lbyVz8PTI/AAAAAAAADPg/7WmOzPHe-lA/s1600/1.jpg


2000 Playoffs

I wonder what happened to the Spurs system

[r0drig0lac]

The players getting HOF tags in this thread are ridiculous.

You people are on a basketball forum ... with some of the suggestions I'm convinced some of you haven't even watched a game in your life. What the actual ****?

and ps, if the objective of this thread is to diminish Duncan, that's not possible. The greatest PF to ever play and arguably a top 5 player ever considering what he's accomplish, his level of play and how long he's been getting it done for.
no matter, they will keep trying and creating a ridiculous topic each day

[ArbitraryWater]

Bosh isnt a HoF, and Wade wasnt in his prime.. especially not 2013

For Duncan: His 2000-2004 teams seem to be rather mediocre

[Lebronxrings]

his cast always gets overlooked when compared to other greats. Its mindblowing how no one ever talks about how great his team was/is. Meanwhile guys like lebron,kobe, jordan get bashed by people calling them stacked.

[Lebronxrings]

The Spurs are perfectly build around Tim Duncan. Without Duncan I don't think the Spurs are even a playoffs teams in the west, or just an 8th seed team.

He was still their most important player in the 2013 and 2014 playoffs.
come on man...You're better than that... :facepalm

[GimmeThat]

well, he was continuously the best big on a team that continuously had no back to the basket player since David Robinson's retirement. And David Robinson's back to the basket move might even be limited (didn't watch him play in his prime enough)


Bill Russell only won 5 MVPs in the span of the 11 years in which he won championships.


you put Zbo on the Spurs, and who's the Center who's the PF?

[T_L_P]

[QUOTE=Anaximandro1]I came to realize OP was right.


1999 Playoffs

Great performance by Shaq.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_g3MrcCxPV0/U7lbyVz8PTI/AAAAAAAADPg/7WmOzPHe-lA/s1600/1.jpg


2000 Playoffs

I wonder what happened to the Spurs system

[mehyaM24]

his cast always gets overlooked when compared to other greats. Its mindblowing how no one ever talks about how great his team was/is. Meanwhile guys like lebron,kobe, jordan get bashed by people calling them stacked.

exactly. people can post warped and misleading stats, but bottom line, duncan at the VERY LEAST had 2 HOFers in their prime (manu / parker)

those 2 HOFers were/are international GOATs

name 2 players of that caliber, in their prime, as teammates, that any of the guys i listed in the op played with

you ****ing cant LOL

[DMAVS41]

exactly. people can post warped and misleading stats, but bottom line, duncan at the VERY LEAST had 2 HOFers in their prime (manu / parker)

those 2 HOFers were/are international GOATs

name 2 players of that caliber, in their prime, as teammates, that any of the guys i listed in the op played with

Well, Parker gets over-rated and Manu gets under-rated...at least now.

But they weren't always healthy either...you seem to ignore this.

And they weren't very good in 03 or 04 to be honest. 05 through 08 they were great, but again...Manu got hurt in the 08 playoffs. Then he missed the 09 playoffs. Parker was hurt in 10. Manu was hurt in 11 again.

In 12 they kind of lost to the Thunder in a flukey way with Ibaka and Perkins having the game of their lives to not go down 3-1. They came within like 6 things happening to win the title in 13. And won in 14.

So while Manu and Parker have been great, lets not ignore 08 through 11. Again, which saw Manu hurt in 08, 09, and 11...and Parker hurt in 10. Hell, Parker got hurt in the 13 finals as well and Manu was terrible.

You act like the results haven't been great since 03. They have.

[T_L_P]

exactly. people can post warped and misleading stats, but bottom line, duncan at the VERY LEAST had 2 HOFers in their prime (manu / parker)

those 2 HOFers were/are international GOATs

name 2 players of that caliber, in their prime, as teammates, that any of the guys i listed in the op played with

you ****ing cant LOL

Refute the stats then. You call them arbitrary or warped but that's just because they don't help your point.

And as I've already said, you can't seem to understand the difference between prime Wade/Kobe and prime Manu/Tony.

Here's Manu and Tony combined in 05: 38 / 9 / 8
Here they are in 07: 38 / 9 / 10

Now here's Penny and Nick Anderson in 95: 37 / 9 / 11
Kobe and Fisher in 01: 42 / 11 / 9
Wade and Walker in 06: 42 / 12 / 8

So whilst Shaq didn't play with two Hall of Famers in their primes at once (even though you called Fisher one in the OP), the fact that prime Wade and Kobe are so much better than Parker or Manu makes up for it. The numbers say as much (though I'm sure you'll just call them warped, or tell me "Parker/Manu/Robinson > Kobe/Fisher). :oldlol:

[T_L_P]

Well, Parker gets over-rated and Manu gets under-rated...at least now.

But they weren't always healthy either...you seem to ignore this.

And they weren't very good in 03 or 04 to be honest. 05 through 08 they were great, but again...Manu got hurt in the 08 playoffs. Then he missed the 09 playoffs. Parker was hurt in 10. Manu was hurt in 11 again.

In 12 they kind of lost to the Thunder in a flukey way with Ibaka and Perkins having the game of their lives to not go down 3-1. They came within like 6 things happening to win the title in 13. And won in 14.

So while Manu and Parker have been great, lets not ignore 08 through 11. Again, which saw Manu hurt in 08, 09, and 11...and Parker hurt in 10. Hell, Parker got hurt in the 13 finals as well and Manu was terrible.

You act like the results haven't been great since 03. They have.


Exactly this. Parker was pretty bad in 05 as well.

[mehyaM24]

2001 Playoffs

Shaq led a bunch of scrubs to back-to-back road wins against the Spurs.

Game 3 and 4 were basically garbage time, thanks to Shaq’s dominance in San Antonio.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mhyZunFrkgI/U7lZo8hAQvI/AAAAAAAADPE/DPH9-8iz3cg/s1600/2.jpg

for the series:
duncan: 23ppg/12.3reb/4.3ast/4.3blk/4.5to 47%fg
shaq: 25.7ppg/13.3reb/2.2ast/1.3blk/3.7to on .553%fg

yeah game 3 and 4 was basically garbage time, because shaq obliterated the spurs' front-line from jump street, you ignorant moron.

nice try, but your selective stats dont mean anything to someone who watched the series.



2003 Playoffs

Duncan's performance was disappointing. Fortunately, the Spurs have a couple of Hall Famers.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dtgUngYsgpg/U7lZpZ7JEAI/AAAAAAAADOU/1CGoEi04nkA/s1600/4.jpg

duncan: 28ppg/11.8reb/4.8ast/1.3blk/2.2to on .529%fg
shaq: 25.3ppg/14.3reb/3.7ast/2.8blk/3.5to on .559%fg

^their real stats. as you can see shaq outplayed duncan (shaq went through duncan AND david robinson just like he did in 2002; tim duncan had the luxury of only having to go through ONE 7fter, so no matter what, his stats are always gonna be less impressive)....but the spurs still won.




2004 Playoffs

Shaq’s master plan for the pivotal Game 5: allow Duncan to outscore the Lakers 8 – 4 in the final 5 minutes, so Fisher can hit a miracle shot with 0.4 seconds left.

Shaq is the GOAT teammate.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lS92BmaB27o/U7lbyW-_KSI/AAAAAAAADPU/clSuTWQVXDg/s1600/5.jpg

more convoluted stats. lets look at what really went down:

duncan: 20.7ppg/12.2reb/3.3ast/1.7blk/4.7to on .473%fg
shaq: 22.5ppg/14.5reb/2.0ast/4.3blk/2.8to on .635%fg

once again, shaq outplaying duncan thoroughly.

shot near 20% better than duncan. holy **** LOL


2005 Playoffs

shaq never played the spurs in 2005 or 2006 :facepalm

when its all said and done, shaq will forever be better than duncan and nothing you can say or do will change that. statistical dominance, prime and peak superiority, H2H superiority and won with less help.

[DMAVS41]

Exactly this. Parker was pretty bad in 05 as well.

It's as if the results haven't been greaet;

03 - won title
04 - lost to loaded lakers team
05 - won title
06 - lost to Western conference representative in as close as a series ever
07 - won title
08 - lost in the WCF (manu hurt)
09 - Manu hurt
10 - upset the Mavs in round 1 (parker was hurt for half of the year)
11 - Manu hurt
12 - Lost in the WCF
13 - Lost in finals
14 - won title

LOL..even if they were stacked (they weren't most of those years at all)...those results are incredible

Seems to me that almost every time that Parker/Manu were healthy or not playing like ass...the Spurs nearly won the title.

[T_L_P]

It's as if the results haven't been greaet;

03 - won title
04 - lost to loaded lakers team
05 - won title
06 - lost to Western conference representative in as close as a series ever
07 - won title
08 - lost in the WCF (manu hurt)
09 - Manu hurt
10 - upset the Mavs in round 1 (parker was hurt for half of the year)
11 - Manu hurt
12 - Lost in the WCF
13 - Lost in finals
14 - won title

LOL..even if they were stacked (they weren't most of those years at all)...those results are incredible

Seems to me that almost every time that Parker/Manu were healthy or not playing like ass...the Spurs nearly won the title.

:applause:

There's no point arguing with the OP though. You know he has an agenda when he calls Bruce Bowen a Hall of Famer.

[BoutPractice]

Yep. Winning just one title is incredibly difficult, many things have to fall into place. The Spurs were "in position" to win the title many, many times, but "only" won 5 in the end.

[mehyaM24]

Refute the stats then. You call them arbitrary or warped but that's just because they don't help your point.

And as I've already said, you can't seem to understand the difference between prime Wade/Kobe and prime Manu/Tony.

Here's Manu and Tony combined in 05: 38 / 9 / 8
Here they are in 07: 38 / 9 / 10

Now here's Penny and Nick Anderson in 95: 37 / 9 / 11
Kobe and Fisher in 01: 42 / 11 / 9
Wade and Walker in 06: 42 / 12 / 8

nick anderson isn't a HOFER and if fisher is a HOFer (i listed a bunch of potential HOFers in the OP), then so are bowen, finley, and horry. you dont wanna go down that route again, do you?

[T_L_P]

nick anderson isn't a HOFER and if fisher is a HOFer (i listed a bunch of potential HOFers in the OP), then so are bowen, finley, and horry. you dont wanna go down that route again, do you?

Perhaps not. But you've completely missed the point.

So two non-HoFers potentially averaging 50/10/10 together is less noteworthy than two putting up 40/8/8 together, because that's what it sounds like you're saying?

That was the weakest post you've ever made. :facepalm

Shaq played with more Hall of Famers than anyone. It's funny that you want to talk about which ones were in their primes when Parker wasn't in his for the 03 and 05 titles, and Manu wasn't in his for the 03 and 14 title.

Shaq: 4 rings with Penny, Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Nash, Amare, Pierce, Allen
Duncan: 5 rings with Robinson, Parker, Manu, Bowen, Leonard and Finley

The way you ignore Shaq's shortcomings is very cute though. :applause:

[mehyaM24]

Perhaps not. But you've completely missed the point.

So two non-HoFers potentially averaging 50/10/10 together is less noteworthy than two putting up 40/8/8 together, because that's what it sounds like you're saying?

That was the weakest post you've ever made. :facepalm

Shaq played with more Hall of Famers than anyone. It's funny that you want to talk about which ones were in their primes when Parker wasn't in his for the 03 and 05 titles, and Manu wasn't in his for the 03 and 14 title.

Shaq: 4 rings with Penny, Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Nash, Amare, Pierce, Allen
Duncan: 5 rings with Robinson, Parker, Manu, Bowen, Leonard and Finley

The way you ignore Shaq's shortcomings is very cute though. :applause:

duncan won with 2 HOFers in their prime.

how many did shaq,kobe,lebron and dirk win with?

:confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

duncan won with 2 HOFers in their prime.

how many did shaq,kobe,lebron and dirk win with?

:confusedshrug:

I forgot you were the king of avoiding the question.

:applause: