If Lebron retired today, where does he rank all-time?

[INDI]

Simple question. No banking on him winning future Mvps or titles; if he announced live on TV he was retiring where would you rank him and why?

I thought of this because of thinking how easier it is to gage Kobe and Duncan on the list with them being close to retirement, but Lebron is a different story. Majority of people have him in their top ten list and he seems to have like 6-8 more years of good playing left.

I currently have him at 9 but if he retired I would give him that slight retirement bump and maybe give him the 8th slot.

[Fudge]

11th on mine.

[LeJohn Janes]

11

[GODbe]

1. Godbe Bryant
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. O'neal
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Russell
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Moses Malone
11. Oscar Robinson
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Scottie Pippen
14. Julius Erving
15. Jerry West
16. Michael Jordan
17. Karl Malone
18. Isaiah Thomas
19. Charles Barkeley
20. David Robinson
21. Kevin McHale
22. Reggie Miller
23. James Worthy
24. Dwyane Wade
25. Bobb Pettit
26. John Havlicek
27. Rick Barry
28. Elvin Hayes
29. Bob Cousy
30. Jason Kidd
31. Carmelo Anthony
32. Kevin Durant
33. Allen Iverson
34. Patrick Ewing
35. Clyde Drexler
36. Steve Nash
37. Sam Jones
38. Dwight Howard
39. Chris Mullin
40. Grant Hill
41. Paul Pierce
42. Rajon Rondo
43. Vince Carter
44. Pau Gasol
45. LeBald Shames

[ReturnofJPR]

Top 15

He can't win without his Super friends and he plays in a weak era

[INDI]

Are yall guys really saying this with no hate or bias towards him???

I am a heat hater but to say anything lower than 10 to me seems silly.

I mainly brought this up though because many people says he's the second goat is almost childish. I think most of his fans see the trend of mvps and rings and feel that it will continue which isn't always the case. Most rank him according to what they believe he will do in the future

[Mure]

Top 10.

[G.O.A.T]

At the highest 5-7. More likely 8-9. At worst 10-12.



Top 15

He can't win without his Super friends and he plays in a weak era

I'll give you ten guys...make a case for anymore and I'll be impressed.

Who are your 14 better?

[VengefulAngel]

8th all time, top 2 potential.

[LAZERUSS]

8th

[Jameerthefear]

Goat

[ReturnofJPR]

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) Magic Johnson
3.) Larry Bird
4.) Kareem Abdul Jabaar
5.) Wilt Chamberlain
6.) Oscar Robertson
7.) Bill Russell
8.) Shaq
9.) Tim Duncan
10.) Kobe Bryant
11.) Hakeem
12.) LeBron
13.) Dr. J
14.) The Logo aka Jerry West
15.) Scottie Pippen
16.) Dirk
17.) Reggie Miller
18.) Karl Malone
19.) John Stockton
20.) A.I. Aka the Answer
21.) Clyde the Glide Drexler
22.) Patrick Ewing
23.) Moses

[LAZERUSS]

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) Magic Johnson
3.) Larry Bird
4.) Kareem Abdul Jabaar
5.) Wilt Chamberlain
6.) Oscar Robertson
7.) Bill Russell
8.) Shaq
9.) Tim Duncan
10.) Kobe Bryant
11.) Hakeem
12.) LeBron
13.) The Logo aka Jerry West
14.) Scottie Pippen
15.) Dirk
16.) Reggie Miller
17.) Karl Malone
18.) John Stockton
19.) A.I. Aka the Answer
20.) Clyde the Glide Drexler

No Moses or Dr. J?

[ReturnofJPR]

Edited for Dr J and I'd take the Mailman over Moses

[lilgodfather1]

Greatest SF ever. 8th all time.

Jordan
Magic
KAJ
Wilt
Bill
Shaq
Duncan/LeBron
LeBron/Duncan
Bird
Kobe

If he ended today 8th.

Thankfully he isn't. That would be a shame. Not too many players have GOAT potential, and it would be unfortunate to see his career ended short.

It truly is amazing that he has outscored Bird in two less seasons. Just a testament to how taken for granted James is.

[mehyaM24]

4-5. ahead of bird magic and kobe

[AnaheimLakers24]

cracjs top 25

[DMAVS41]

Definitely top 15 ever.

I think I'd probably put him at 11th...

[LAZERUSS]

Edited for Dr J and I'd take the Mailman over Moses

Who would you take H2H, Moses or Kareem?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=abdulka01&p2=malonmo01

[ReturnofJPR]

Greatest SF ever. 8th all time.

Jordan
Magic
KAJ
Wilt
Bill
Shaq
Duncan/LeBron
LeBron/Duncan
Bird
Kobe

If he ended today 8th.

Thankfully he isn't. That would be a shame. Not too many players have GOAT potential, and it would be unfortunate to see his career ended short.

It truly is amazing that he has outscored Bird in two less seasons. Just a testament to how taken for granted James is.

Or the fact that Bird played in a man's league with MJ where you could put people on the ground and hand check the hell out of them. Bron plays in a soft league so his points don't mean as much. Jordan would have averaged 40-50 a game in today's league where the refs favor the offense to help viewership and increase point totals.

[G.O.A.T]

Or the fact that Bird played in a man's league with MJ where you could put people on the ground and hand check the hell out of them. Bron plays in a soft league so his points don't mean as much. Jordan would have averaged 40-50 a game in today's league where the refs favor the offense to help viewership and increase point totals.

Seems like a huge exaggeration.

[tmacattack33]

Top 15, closer to 10.

He was a borderline all-star rookie year, an all-star his second year, and a super-star his third and beyond. So he's already had 7 or 8 super-star seasons.

He's been to 5 Finals and has made it past the first round every year except two I believe.

[zizozain]

NOT top 20

2010, 2011 and 2014

LeBron's failure 2011 was EPIC in total.

No other player in history has failed in the fourth quarter of finals games at that level EVER.

It was at almost a total QUITTER level. I don't think you can ever recover from that

2010 and 2014 almost the same

You have to take into account what happened in the 2010, 2011 and 2014 playoffs in evaluating LeBron's career

[G.O.A.T]

NOT top 20

2010, 2011 and 2014

LeBron's failure 2011 was EPIC in total.

No other player in history has failed in the fourth quarter of finals games at that level EVER.

It was at almost a total QUITTER level. I don't think you can ever recover from that

2010 and 2014 almost the same

You have to take into account what happened in the 2010, 2011 and 2014 playoffs in evaluating LeBron's career

Obviously he recovered from 2010 and 2011, and he certainly didn't fail in this years finals.

Your post sounds only like someone trying to push an agenda.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Top 10

9) Kobe
10) LeBron
11) Hakeem

[zizozain]

Obviously he recovered from 2010 and 2011, and he certainly didn't fail in this years finals.

Your post sounds only like someone trying to push an agenda.
won't be worse than your agenda against Kareem

[ReturnofJPR]

Obviously he recovered from 2010 and 2011, and he certainly didn't fail in this years finals.

Your post sounds only like someone trying to push an agenda.

He absolutely did fail. Tim Duncan won not LeBron! Rings matter

You're the one pushing a pro-LeBron agenda

[RoundMoundOfReb]

8-11 range

[T_L_P]

5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Kobe
10. LeBron or Wilt

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Top 15

He can't win without his Super friends and he plays in a weak era
Yet you have Oscar Robertson #7 who couldn't win without Kareem.

[VengefulAngel]

He absolutely did fail. Tim Duncan won not LeBron! Rings matter

You're the one pushing a pro-LeBron agenda

You moved from an idiot to deluded. Well done.

[ReturnofJPR]

Yet you have Oscar Robertson #7 who couldn't win without Kareem.

Did Oscar leave his team in epic douche bag fashion with a television show talking about his talents?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Did Oscar leave his team in epic douche bag fashion with a television show talking about his talents?
Nothing to do with how good he is at basketball.

[G.O.A.T]

He absolutely did fail. Tim Duncan won not LeBron! Rings matter

You're the one pushing a pro-LeBron agenda

If Rings matter, and LeBron has two as the best player in the NBA and in MVP seasons with Finals MVP's, then how is he not top twenty.

Not even ten other guys can make that claim.

[BallsOut]

Top 20

1) Russell
2) Jordan
3) Kareem
4) Magic
5) Bird
6) Duncan
7) Kobe
8) Shaq
9) Hakeem
10) Nowitzki
11) Garnett
12) Wilt
13) Wade
14) Lebron
15) Robertson
16) Malone
17) West
18) Pierce
19) Gasol
20) Iverson

[ReturnofJPR]

If Rings matter, and LeBron has two as the best player in the NBA and in MVP seasons with Finals MVP's, then how is he not top twenty.

Not even ten other guys can make that claim.

I have LeBald top 15

He fails more than he wins..

Jordan was undefeated aka 6-0

[VengefulAngel]

Top 20

1) Russell
2) Jordan
3) Kareem
4) Magic
5) Bird
6) Duncan
7) Kobe
8) Shaq
9) Hakeem
10) Nowitzki
11) Garnett
12) Wilt
13) Wade
14) Lebron
15) Robertson
16) Malone
17) West
18) Ginobili
19) Parker
20) Pierce

Wade ahead of Lebron..., can you f*** off please?

[BallsOut]

Wade ahead of Lebron..., can you f*** off please?

Unlike Lebron, Wade has already proven he can win as the man on a non-stacked team. In fact, he'd have 2 Finals MVP if it weren't for Lebron throwing the 2011 Finals against the Mavs.

[aj1987]

1. Godbe Bryant
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. O'neal
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Russell
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Moses Malone
11. Oscar Robinson
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Scottie Pippen
14. Julius Erving
15. Jerry West
16. Michael Jordan
17. Karl Malone
18. Isaiah Thomas
19. Charles Barkeley
20. David Robinson
21. Kevin McHale
22. Reggie Miller
23. James Worthy
24. Dwyane Wade
25. Bobb Pettit
26. John Havlicek
27. Rick Barry
28. Elvin Hayes
29. Bob Cousy
30. Jason Kidd
31. Carmelo Anthony
32. Kevin Durant
33. Allen Iverson
34. Patrick Ewing
35. Clyde Drexler
36. Steve Nash
37. Sam Jones
38. Dwight Howard
39. Chris Mullin
40. Grant Hill
41. Paul Pierce
42. Rajon Rondo
43. Vince Carter
44. Pau Gasol
45. LeBald Shames
Even if you ignore Kobe and LeBron's ranking, this is among the WOAT lists.

Also, :oldlol: @ the other idiot who ranked Reggie, AI, Stockton, Ewing, Drexler and Pippen over KG and Wade.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I have LeBald top 15

He fails more than he wins..

Jordan was undefeated aka 6-0
Yet you have Wilt #5

[ReturnofJPR]

Unlike Lebron, Wade has already proven he can win as the man on a non-stacked team. In fact, he'd have 2 Finals MVP if it weren't for Lebron throwing the 2011 Finals against the Mavs.

Wade would never win without Shaq or LeBron

Wade is a deadbeat "dad" who has herpes, just google "wade herpes"

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Even if you ignore Kobe and LeBron's ranking, this is among the WOAT lists.

Also, :oldlol: @ the other idiot who ranked Reggie, AI, Stockton, Ewing, Drexler and Pippen over KG and Wade.
"Oscar Robinson" :oldlol: :oldlol:

[ReturnofJPR]

Yet you have Wilt #5

When someone other than wilt scores 100 points in a game, and bangs. 5,000 women, get back to me

[G.O.A.T]

I have LeBald top 15

He fails more than he wins..

Jordan was undefeated aka 6-0

Every player except Bill Russell has failed more than they've won.

Even Jordan.

What are the reasons other players are better than LeBron, not the reasons LeBron is worse?

Exclude these 10 guys, because I can see an argument for them: Kobe, Shaq, Timmy, Russ, MJ, Wilt, Hakeem, Kareem, Magic, Bird.

[aj1987]

"Oscar Robinson" :oldlol: :oldlol:
:oldlol:

Dude is a clown.


Wade would never win without Shaq or LeBron

Wade is a deadbeat "dad" who has herpes, just google "wade herpes"
Why the **** are you Googling "Wade herpes"? Did he give you herpes?

[ReturnofJPR]

KG is one of the biggest cheap shot artists in the history of the game and only picked on players much smaller than him, without Pierce and Allen KG wouldn't of won a ring. He could never carry a team in his Minnesota days

[ReturnofJPR]

Every player except Bill Russell has failed more than they've won.

Even Jordan.

What are the reasons other players are better than LeBron, not the reasons LeBron is worse?

Exclude these 10 guys, because I can see an argument for them: Kobe, Shaq, Timmy, Russ, MJ, Wilt, Hakeem, Kareem, Magic, Bird.

Jordan is 6-0 when it matters most. Next.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

When someone other than wilt scores 100 points in a game, and bangs. 5,000 women, get back to me
your logic makes no sense. First you say he's not top 10 because he can't win without wade/bosh but then you have Oscar #6 who "couldn't" win without Kareem. then you say he's not top 10 because of his finals win% but you have Wilt #5 who has an even worse one.

If you're gonna rank him that low at least have consistent reasoning.

[LAZERUSS]

Jordan is 6-0 when it matters most. Next.

0-2 against Bird.

[ReturnofJPR]

:oldlol:

Dude is a clown.


Why the **** are you Googling "Wade herpes"? Did he give you herpes?

It made the local news here in Chicago and it came from his very own wife's mouth. Wade has a deformed jaw because he is degenerate loser who could never win without Shaq or LeBeon.

[INDI]

8-11 range

Agreed

[BallsOut]

Wade would never win without Shaq or LeBron

Wade is a deadbeat "dad" who has herpes, just google "wade herpes"

:biggums:

[aj1987]

It made the local news here in Chicago and it came from his very own wife's mouth. Wade has a deformed jaw because he is degenerate loser who could never win without Shaq or LeBeon.
MJ never won without Pippen. Your point?


It made the local news here in Chicago and it came from his very own wife's mouth. Wade has a deformed jaw because he is degenerate loser who could never win without Shaq or LeBeon.
I usually don't give a shit about this kinda tabloid BS, but Wade's ex is a legit crazy bitch.

[Hey Yo]

I have LeBald top 15

He fails more than he wins..

Jordan was undefeated aka 6-0
Jordan only played 6 seasons?

[Hey Yo]

Jordan is 6-0 when it matters most. Next.
So the other seasons didn't matter? The Bulls weren't trying to win a championship the other seasons?

[ReturnofJPR]

Jordan only played 6 seasons?

Uh duh uh uh duh the NBA Finals jackass!!!!


What's LeBald, 2-3 Lol

[Dbrog]

mmmmmmm 11th right after Hakeem. Basically had same accolades but Hakeem won one of the hardest chips ever and won again the year after. I wouldn't be mad if people had him in their top10 though. I just personally put extra value on your rings if you carry role players.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Simple question. No banking on him winning future Mvps or titles; if he announced live on TV he was retiring where would you rank him and why?

I thought of this because of thinking how easier it is to gage Kobe and Duncan on the list with them being close to retirement, but Lebron is a different story. Majority of people have him in their top ten list and he seems to have like 6-8 more years of good playing left.

I currently have him at 9 but if he retired I would give him that slight retirement bump and maybe give him the 8th slot.

290th on mine. He should become a boxer and see how many times he loses due to flops

[Soundwave]

Jordan had a legitimately decent team for about 8 full seasons, Scottie Pippen wasn't a really good player until his third year and it's kinda hard to hold the 94-95 season where he came back to play after not competing in pro basketball for almost two years.

Of those full years where he had a good team around him he won 6/8 times.

Maybe the rest of the league was lucky Portland didn't take him at no.2 in '84, otherwise maybe he would have won 8-10+ titles with a better team around him right from the start instead of having to wait 4-5 seasons for Pippen to come along as a legit no.2 option to play with.

As for Bron, if he retired today I would rank him above Hakeem but below Shaq.

[Bosnian Sajo]

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) Wilt Chamberlain
3.) KAJ
4.) Magic
5.) Shaq
6.) Bird
7.) Timmy
8.) Kobe
9.) Hakeem
10.) O-Rob
11.) Russell
12.) Lebron

The last three can be mixed up any way you want, to me Russell always looked like a great defensive player and average offensive player. His teams were extremely stacked too, there is a reason they won 11 in 13 years i believe. Also, Hakeem is very underrated. Btw, can anyone name one player who could stop prime Shaq?

[Bosnian Sajo]

Uh duh uh uh duh the NBA Finals jackass!!!!


What's LeBald, 2-3 Lol


2/3 isn't bad, but he is 2/5. How do you post on ISH and not know that?

[PickernRoller]

13/14 on mine.

[Nash]

Lebron has racked up a lot of accolades that should get him into the top 10.

[ReturnofJPR]

2/3 isn't bad, but he is 2/5. How do you post on ISH and not know that?

2 wins 3 losses that's 2-3 ya know like 72-10 means 72 wins and 10 losses...

[Angel Face]

Outside top 10.

[Natureland]

Probably have him 9th.

[knicksman]

below dirk

[Mr. Jabbar]

21-24

[dreamwarrior]

How many guys with 10 year careers do you know in the top 50? top 100?

[Nowitness]

Michael Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Duncan
Magic
Bird
ShaqWhale
Hakeem
Kobe
Wilt
Le2/5

[dubeta]

Most objective posters agree LeBron > Bird

one less ring, one more MVP, same FMVPs, and much better regular and advanced stats, plus Bird had a stacked team his entire career

Therefore its ridiculous to put LeBron out of the top 7

[raprap]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Oscar
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe
11. LeBron

[knicksman]

Most objective posters agree LeBron > Bird

one less ring, one more MVP, same FMVPs, and much better regular and advanced stats, plus Bird had a stacked team his entire career

Therefore its ridiculous to put LeBron out of the top 7

most lebron stans thinks wilt>>>>lebron. And most high IQs think wilt is not top 10.

[Mure]

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
LeBron
Kobe
Russell

[K Xerxes]

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) Wilt Chamberlain
3.) KAJ
4.) Magic
5.) Shaq
6.) Bird
7.) Timmy
8.) Kobe
9.) Hakeem
10.) O-Rob
11.) Russell
12.) Lebron

The last three can be mixed up any way you want, to me Russell always looked like a great defensive player and average offensive player. His teams were extremely stacked too, there is a reason they won 11 in 13 years i believe. Also, Hakeem is very underrated. Btw, can anyone name one player who could stop prime Shaq?

Interesting you have Magic at 4 then. Great offensive player, average defensive player, his teams were extremely stacked too...

[Bigsmoke]

If 2-5 is horrible in the Finals then why Chamberlain gets a pass?


Wilt was a 3rd option on his 2nd ring btw

[ReturnofJPR]

If 2-5 is horrible in the Finals then why Chamberlain gets a pass?


Wilt was a 3rd option on his 2nd ring btw

Score 100 in a game and bang 10,000 b!tches then let's talk..

[Roundball_Rock]

1) KAJ
1) MJ
3) Russell
4) Wilt
5) Shaq
6) Bird
7) Magic
8) Duncan
9) Kobe
10) LeBron

[crisoner]

Why do people always count out big men???!

I don't get it....

[Rodmantheman]

top 10

[ArbitraryWater]

2/3 isn't bad, but he is 2/5. How do you post on ISH and not know that?

2-3 means 2 WINS 3 LOSSES, while 2/3 is 2 of 3, 2 completely different things...

LeBron is 2-3 and 2/5....


Until then, remember

























































http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-never-go-full-retard-8.png

[DMV2]

He's no. 9, 10 or 11 as of right now.

The Consensus 6 (MJ, KAJ, Bird, Magic, Wilt & Russell)
7. Duncan (could be #5-6 for some)
8. Shaq (could be higher for some b/c of his peak)
9-11 LeBron, Hakeem or Kobe

[Doctor Rivers]

1. Godbe Bryant
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. O'neal
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Russell
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Moses Malone
11. Oscar Robinson
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Scottie Pippen
14. Julius Erving
15. Jerry West
16. Michael Jordan
17. Karl Malone
18. Isaiah Thomas
19. Charles Barkeley
20. David Robinson
21. Kevin McHale
22. Reggie Miller
23. James Worthy
24. Dwyane Wade
25. Bobb Pettit
26. John Havlicek
27. Rick Barry
28. Elvin Hayes
29. Bob Cousy
30. Jason Kidd
31. Carmelo Anthony
32. Kevin Durant
33. Allen Iverson
34. Patrick Ewing
35. Clyde Drexler
36. Steve Nash
37. Sam Jones
38. Dwight Howard
39. Chris Mullin
40. Grant Hill
41. Paul Pierce
42. Rajon Rondo
43. Vince Carter
44. Pau Gasol
45. LeBald Shames

DA f is this?

[mehyaM24]

lebron already carried his team to 2 rings and by all objective measures, is the most productive player of all-time...if not top 5 in that regard.

kareem
jordan
wilt
shaq
lebron

i dont want to put wilt in there because of his choke resume, but he's still probably the most dominant regular-season player ever.

[LAZERUSS]

If 2-5 is horrible in the Finals then why Chamberlain gets a pass?


Wilt was a 3rd option on his 2nd ring btw

You mean the Wilt, who by virtually all acounts, outplayed a peak Kareem in the '72 WCF's, and then dominated the Knicks in the Finals with a 19 ppg, 23 rpg, 7 bpg, .600 series, and with his best teammate shooting .325 in that same series...en route to a FMVP?

[CavaliersFTW]

1. Godbe Bryant
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. O'neal
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Russell
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Moses Malone
11. Oscar Robinson
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Scottie Pippen
14. Julius Erving
15. Jerry West
16. Michael Jordan
17. Karl Malone
18. Isaiah Thomas
19. Charles Barkeley
20. David Robinson
21. Kevin McHale
22. Reggie Miller
23. James Worthy
24. Dwyane Wade
25. Bobb Pettit
26. John Havlicek
27. Rick Barry
28. Elvin Hayes
29. Bob Cousy
30. Jason Kidd
31. Carmelo Anthony
32. Kevin Durant
33. Allen Iverson
34. Patrick Ewing
35. Clyde Drexler
36. Steve Nash
37. Sam Jones
38. Dwight Howard
39. Chris Mullin
40. Grant Hill
41. Paul Pierce
42. Rajon Rondo
43. Vince Carter
44. Pau Gasol
45. LeBald Shames
where in the flying **** is ELGIN BAYLOR (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E)

[LAZERUSS]

where in the flying fukk is ELGIN BAYLOR (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E)

And where is Oscar ROBERTSON?

[CavaliersFTW]

And where is Oscar ROBERTSON?
:oldlol: that too

[BlazerRed]

11

[RoundMoundOfReb]

where in the flying **** is ELGIN BAYLOR (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E)
Lol his list is all pretty much recent/famous players. No Mikan either.

[Ne 1]

Tier 1 (Strong GOAT candidates): Kareem, Jordan, Russell, Wilt. Tier 2 (Weak GOAT candidates): Bird, Shaq, Magic. Tier 3: (Top 5 at best/Top 10 at worst): Kobe, Duncan, Olajuwon. Tier 4 (weak/borderline Top 10 candidates) Moses, LeBron, West, Dr. J, Oscar.

[funnystuff]

8-9

[Soundwave]

The difference between having 2 rings versus 3 is a pretty big one, especially 3 as the no.1 option (sorry Kobe).

Only Russell, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Duncan, and Shaq and have 3 titles as the no.1 option, so I kinda think by default those 7 have to be above him for the time being.

And Kobe is probably above just because he has the three additional titles, even if he was no.2 on those squads, they still count for something.

[TheGreatDeraj]

Perimeter players
MJ
Kobe
Bird
Magic
Lebron

Big Guys
Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem

MJ
Russell
Kareem
Kobe
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Lebron
Hakeem

so top 5 perimeter player and top 10 overall, nice

[Beastmode88]

1. Godbe Bryant
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. O'neal
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Russell
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Moses Malone
11. Oscar Robinson
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Scottie Pippen
14. Julius Erving
15. Jerry West
16. Michael Jordan
17. Karl Malone
18. Isaiah Thomas
19. Charles Barkeley
20. David Robinson
21. Kevin McHale
22. Reggie Miller
23. James Worthy
24. Dwyane Wade
25. Bobb Pettit
26. John Havlicek
27. Rick Barry
28. Elvin Hayes
29. Bob Cousy
30. Jason Kidd
31. Carmelo Anthony
32. Kevin Durant
33. Allen Iverson
34. Patrick Ewing
35. Clyde Drexler
36. Steve Nash
37. Sam Jones
38. Dwight Howard
39. Chris Mullin
40. Grant Hill
41. Paul Pierce
42. Rajon Rondo
43. Vince Carter
44. Pau Gasol
45. LeBald Shames

:facepalm :facepalm Of course lakers would be your top 4 and scottie over mj.

[KBaller33]

6-8

Lol @ the extreme standards for LeBron. You guys put him on Jordan standards when you rank him. Magic is 5-4 in the finals while playing with Kareem (another top 5 player of all time) but you guys want to discredit LeBron for winning with Wade who hasn't been in his prime since 2011. And Kobe and Shaq get the same pass Magic gets even though they are both top 10 players who won rings together.

[crisoner]

1a Jordan
1b Kareem
3. Chamberline
4.Magic
5.Duncan
6.Kobe
7.Shaq
8.LeBron
9.Russel
10.Hakeem

[houston]

Kareem
Jordan
Russell
Kobe
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Lebron
Wilt

He number 9

[coin24]

MJ
Kaj
Russell
Kobe
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Wilt

Bran has no case over these guys.. Maybe wilt cause he was a choking loser that only won due to stacked team also..

[KBaller33]

MJ
Kaj
Russell
Kobe
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Wilt

Bran has no case over these guys.. Maybe wilt cause he was a choking loser that only won due to stacked team also..

What is Hakeem's case over LeBron?

[ReturnofJPR]

What is Hakeem's case over LeBron?

Balls and fortitude. A will to win and the ability to stop any attempt coming his way. leBum gets dunked on by a high schooler & has the tape confiscated. Did Hakeem?

[T_L_P]

What is Hakeem's case over LeBron?

Same number of rings in a much tougher era (Jordan-less NBA is still far tougher than today's East), with about as much help (though Clyde coming over in 95 did help).

And this is if LeBron retired today. I'm a firm believer that LeBron's impact so far isn't much greater than Hakeem's or Magic's or Shaq's or Duncan's, if at all, but all of those guys except Magic played an extra 5-6 years.

Just my thoughts. :confusedshrug:

[KBaller33]

Balls and fortitude. A will to win and the ability to stop any attempt coming his way. leBum gets dunked on by a high schooler & has the tape confiscated. Did Hakeem?

A will to win after MJ retired, huh? Where was his will from '84 to '93?

[ReturnofJPR]

A will to win after MJ retired, huh? Where was his will from '84 to '93?

LeBron wouldn't exist without MJ. His mom would still be turned out on the block by Pimp Delonte West having LeBron looking at a curb while a south side chitown pimp walk by. Pimps up hoes down!

http://www.pimpsup.com/images/thepimps4_14.jpg

MJ's the do or die P-I-M-P and Bron's the Hoe

As soon as MJ retired the gaping hole that is the v@gina media needed to replace mj's camera time so they anointed LeBum without ever proving 1 thing.

[KBaller33]

Same number of rings in a much tougher era (Jordan-less NBA is still far tougher than today's East), with about as much help (though Clyde coming over in 95 did help).

And this is if LeBron retired today. I'm a firm believer that LeBron's impact so far isn't much greater than Hakeem's or Magic's or Shaq's or Duncan's, if at all, but all of those guys except Magic played an extra 5-6 years.

Just my thoughts. :confusedshrug:

I feel like Magic gets a pass for the exact same thing LeBron gets heat for: playing on a stacked team and in a weak conference. Check the Western Conference in the 1980's during Magic's run. You would see it's just like the East today. The Lakers pretty much had a free run to the finals every year like the Heat had this year. Plus Magic played with Kareem(top 5 player of all time and the all time scoring leader) but LeBron gets hate for winning rings with Wade who has been out of his prime since '11? Lol ok.

[Warfan]

I'd probably have him around 8 or 9 if l made a list. Anywhere from 7 to 11 seems reasonable IMO


LeBron wouldn't exist without MJ. His mom would still be turned out on the block by Pimp Delonte West having LeBron looking at a curb while a south side chitown pimp walk by. Pimps up hoes down!

As soon as MJ retired the gaping hole that is the v@gina media needed to replace mj's camera time so they anointed LeBum without ever proving 1 thing.

:facepalm tried too hard, not funny

[ReturnofJPR]

I'd probably have him around 8 or 9 if l made a list. Anywhere from 7 to 11 seems reasonable IMO



:facepalm tried too hard, not funny

Its not supposed to be Funny, Just truth

[dubeta]

Same number of rings in a much tougher era (Jordan-less NBA is still far tougher than today's East), with about as much help (though Clyde coming over in 95 did help).

And this is if LeBron retired today. I'm a firm believer that LeBron's impact so far isn't much greater than Hakeem's or Magic's or Shaq's or Duncan's, if at all, but all of those guys except Magic played an extra 5-6 years.

Just my thoughts. :confusedshrug:

Jordan less nba is tougher than Duncan's spurs? :roll:

Damn u just took a shot at Timmy

[bdreason]

I have him at #12.

[Lebron23]

I really hate this Jordan stan. Bulls won 57 games when they replaced him with Pete Myers in 1994. Currently I put him at number 8. He has a 4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP, former scoring championship. Great stats in the playoffs and regular season.

[TheMarkMadsen]

12-15

[ArbitraryWater]

People have him outside the top 10 :facepalm

This guy has played 11 seasons now... besides his rookie year every single one was MVP stuff and 27+PPG... no bad in between years where something didn't mesh... He's been the BEST PLAYER IN BASKETBALL since 2009, 6 straight seasons...

Only matched by Kareem in the 1970's.


And by all accounts, one of the top 3 greatest playoff performers ever... Only Kareem/Jordan are up there. Seriously.

[IllegalD]

Somewhere in the Top 15-20.

If he jumps ship to another team to ringchase then he doesn't move up even if he adds rings and MVPs.

[JohnFreeman]

9. LeBron
10. Hakeem
11. Kobe

[Ne 1]

The difference between having 2 rings versus 3 is a pretty big one, especially 3 as the no.1 option (sorry Kobe).

Only Russell, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Duncan, and Shaq and have 3 titles as the no.1 option, so I kinda think by default those 7 have to be above him for the time being.

And Kobe is probably above just because he has the three additional titles, even if he was no.2 on those squads, they still count for something.
Except Magic didn't win as "the number 1 option" until his 4th ring in 1987 when Riley turned the reins over to him. Also, Kobe's 2001 and 2002 rings are on par with or better than some rings won as "the number one option" so you can't just judge rings as the "#1 option" or "#2 option" without context.

[nathanjizzle]

Simple question. No banking on him winning future Mvps or titles; if he announced live on TV he was retiring where would you rank him and why?

I thought of this because of thinking how easier it is to gage Kobe and Duncan on the list with them being close to retirement, but Lebron is a different story. Majority of people have him in their top ten list and he seems to have like 6-8 more years of good playing left.

I currently have him at 9 but if he retired I would give him that slight retirement bump and maybe give him the 8th slot.

judging a player when he has retired shortly after his peak is unfair. imagine if kobe retired after his 5th ring, he would be top 5 all time.

[ArbitraryWater]

Except Magic didn't win as "the number 1 option" until his 4th ring in 1987 when Riley turned the reins over to him. Also, Kobe's 2001 and 2002 rings are on par with or better than some rings won as "the number one option" so you can't just judge rings as the "#1 option" or "#2 option" without context.

Nope, his 2002 ring isn't 1st option at all... Shooting 42% in the WCF :roll:

No 1st option gets away being that shitty and still winning.. no 1st option.

And lol at all these ring counters like Soundwave on here :lol

Ever heard of this one, LeBron is simply twice the player Kobe is?

Ring count as much as you want, it makes no sense when it's not that close...

[the mesiah]

AS OF JULY 6th,2014
1.Jordan
2.Earvin
3.Lew
4.Larry
5.Wilt
6.Timmy
7.Kobe
8.shaq
9.Russell
10.olajuwon
11.Lebron

[pauk]

Highest #5-#6 (over Bird)
Lowest #10 (over Hakeem/Moses/West/Oscar/Julius or whoever u have at #10)

[coin24]

Highest #5-#6 (over Bird)
Lowest #10 (over Hakeem/Moses/West/Oscar/Julius or whoever u have at #10)


You have bran at 5-6 if he retired right now??:roll: :roll: :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Highest #5-#6 (over Bird)
Lowest #10 (over Hakeem/Moses/West/Oscar/Julius or whoever u have at #10)

Finally someone with a sense of reality

People need to stop this stupid "He still needs this amount of rings to..." :hammerhead:

He was basically ringblocked for the first 7 seasons of his career... Let's say 6.

2010 is 50-50, but in 2009 he balled out, can't play better, and they still lost..

[coin24]

Finally someone with a sense of reality

People need to stop this stupid "He still needs this amount of rings to..." :hammerhead:

He was basically ringblocked for the first 7 seasons of his career... Let's say 6.

2010 is 50-50, but in 2009 he balled out, can't play better, and they still lost..

U forgot about 2011 biggest choke of all time
And
2013 saved by ray after a pathetic display


Not even top10..

[pauk]

You have bran at 5-6 if he retired right now??:roll: :roll: :roll:

No, i dont... but he is in my top 10 list, indeed... anything lower than #10 on anyodies list for Lebron at this point and your opinions on anything basketball related should be ignored completely, seriously.... if you look around here and see all the posters who ranked Lebron outside #10 are all famous Lebron haters around... people like you.... If you are butthurt about him so much you might aswell remove him completely from any type of ranking... thats much better.... because anything outside #10 for Lebron is just absolutely absurd, hell he has a stronger argument to go HIGHER, not lower....

...when it comes to #5-#6, its very arguable, trust me.... ask yourself who is normally on that # in majority of everybodies top 10 list? Namely Larry Bird.....

Now, do a simple thing such as compare Bird to Lebron and then YOU can tell me what you overall think after seeing this:

............................................Lebron ......................Bird...............
MVP.........................................4..... .......................3.................
FMVP.......................................2...... ......................2.................
Rings.......................................2..... ........................3 (only 2 which HE inflicted)
1st All-NBA...............................8............... .............9................
1st All-Defensive........................6................ ............0................
ROTY......................................Yes..... ....................Yes.............
DPOY......................................0 (2x runner-up).........0................
All-Star MVP.............................2................. ............1................
Scoring champ..........................1.................. ...........0...............
Undisputed Best player..............6+ years..................3~ years.....

STATS:
PPG......................................27.5 (#3 all-time).........24.3...............
RPG........................................7.2.... .......................10.0..............
APG........................................6.9.... .........................6.3..............
TS%........................................58.1%.. .....................56.4%..........
PER -.....................................27.8 (#2 all-time).........23.5..............

STATS Per 100 poss:
PPG......................................36.9..... ......................30.0...............
RPG........................................9.7.... .......................12.7..............
APG........................................9.2.... .........................7.9..............
(just for fun)




...While Bird was one heck of a player and keep in mind that Bird is my favorite player of all time aswell but if we still want to be very objective here then it is very safe to say that Lebron has a strong case enough to argue him having more accolades and that he was a better actual overall individual player when you also consider the other end of the court......... not only does Lebron have a case over Bird, but so does Kobe, Shaq & Duncan.

Dont let your Lebron hatred blind your basketball judgements....

[Ne 1]

Nope, his 2002 ring isn't 1st option at all... Shooting 42% in the WCF
27/6/5 51 TS% throughout the playoffs. :confusedshrug: Kobe was the MVP of the Spurs series in 2002 and the Lakers would have actually lost that series if not for Kobe's 4th quarter play in the last 3 games. vs the Kings, after going back and watching the games again it was a lot closer than the stats suggest. Kobe was just as important as Shaq in the wins but Shaq played better in the loses and yeah, Kobe had some bad shooting nights in those game. vs the Nets was an excellent series for Kobe, perhaps the best performance not to be awarded Finals MVP in a winning effort. (aside from Kareem in 1980 who was literally robbed)

No 1st option gets away being that shitty and still winning.. no 1st option.
Jordan vs the Knicks in '93, Sonics in '96, Heat in '97, Jazz in '98 come to mind if you want to cherry pick 1 series and use FG% for 1 series as the be all end all.

And lol at all these ring counters like Soundwave
Some people value winning, the main objective of playing the game.

Ever heard of this one, LeBron is simply twice the player Kobe is?
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man.

[ArbitraryWater]

51 TS% ? I know you guys love to pull the TS%, but even here that's not good...

Sorry, doesn't cut it.

Kobe was just as important in the wins? :roll:

What kind of cop out is that anyway? kobe fans.... un ****in believable


**** off you scum

revisionist history at its best

ring counting is ring counting... I prefer to break down the players in itself

Otherwise, Havlicek >>> Kobe

[KBaller33]

You guys expect LeBron to win every year. Like I said, putting him on Jordan standards when you rank him all time.

[TAZORAC]

Nobody being seriously can honestly name another player who's EVER PLAYED thats CLEARLY better then Lebron James.

Nobody carries a team like Lebron, nobody controls a game by themselves like Lebron.

Lebron James is the GOAT.

[Ne 1]

51 TS% ? I know you guys love to pull the TS%, but even here that's not good...

Sorry, doesn't cut it.

Kobe was just as important in the wins? :roll:

What kind of cop out is that anyway? kobe fans.... un ****in believable


**** off you scum

revisionist history at its best

ring counting is ring counting... I prefer to break down the players in itself

Otherwise, Havlicek >>> Kobe
His TS% is right there with the league average for 2001-2002. :lol it doesn't matter that he was just as important as Shaq in the games they won vs the Kings? Nobody is saying rings is the be all end all criteria, but it matters though. It's why players with multiple rings are always included in the top 10 while players like Baylor, Malone, Barkley etc. aren't.

[Cold soul]

Lebron ranks anywhere from 11-13. I have him 12th ATM, he will continue to move up the list in time.

[Hands of Iron]

While Bird was one heck of a player and keep in mind that Bird is my favorite player of all time as well.

What's your take on his level of opposition? To win an NBA championship over the likes of the '84 Lakers while putting up 27/14/4 60% TS during the series (28/11/6 61% TS over the playoff run as a whole) is pretty incredible like. That particular Los Angeles Lakers squad was boasting:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, All-NBA First Team/All-Defensive Second Team
Magic Johnson, All-NBA First Team
Michael Cooper, NBA All-Defensive First Team
Byron Scott, NBA All-Rookie 1st Team

Two Top 5 GOAT-level players both performing at an All-NBA 1st Team level, future HOFer 'Big Game' James Worthy putting up 18 ppg on 61% TS over the course of the playoffs, one of the greatest perimeter defenders in history Michael Cooper in his physical prime, HOFer Bob McAdoo (6MOY candidate) dropping double figures on top efficiency off the bench, Byron Scott in a productive rookie season, Pat Riley as Head Coach.

Bird was the only player on his team to make All-NBA 1st (or 2nd) team. He was the league's best player and NBA MVP, All-Defense 2nd Team as well, led the NBA in DWS. Dennis Johnson was All-D 2nd Team, Kevin McHale 6MOY.

[BoutPractice]

I'd say about 9th. Below Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Shaq. Good case over anyone else. He's getting closer to the Shaq tier than the Hakeem tier.

One more title season as the leading player on his team would open up the possibility of being argued as high as 5th, as it is quite difficult to rank Duncan, Bird, Magic and Shaq in a definite order. 3 titles to go along with 4 or more MVPs would put him in that category, so that one more title is crucial for his legacy.

[aj1987]

What's your take on his level of opposition? To win an NBA championship over the likes of the '84 Lakers while putting up 27/14/4 60% TS during the series (28/11/6 61% TS over the playoff run as a whole) is pretty incredible like. That particular Los Angeles Lakers squad was boasting:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, All-NBA First Team/All-Defensive Second Team
Magic Johnson, All-NBA First Team
Michael Cooper, NBA All-Defensive First Team
Byron Scott, NBA All-Rookie 1st Team

Two Top 5 GOAT-level players both performing at an All-NBA 1st Team level, future HOFer 'Big Game' James Worthy putting up 18 ppg on 61% TS over the course of the playoffs, one of the greatest perimeter defenders in history Michael Cooper in his physical prime, HOFer Bob McAdoo (6MOY candidate) dropping double figures on top efficiency off the bench, Byron Scott in a productive rookie season, Pat Riley as Head Coach.

Bird was the only player on his team to make All-NBA 1st (or 2nd) team. He was the league's best player and NBA MVP, All-Defense 2nd Team as well, led the NBA in DWS. Dennis Johnson was All-D 2nd Team, Kevin McHale 6MOY.
Isn't that the Finals which Magic choked away?

[LAZERUSS]

Isn't that the Finals which Magic choked away?

"Tragic" Johnson...

18.1 ppg, 7.7 rpg (LED the Lakers), 13.6 apg, and shot .560 from the field (BTW, Bird was at .484, and KAJ was at .481.)

[LAZERUSS]

What's your take on his level of opposition? To win an NBA championship over the likes of the '84 Lakers while putting up 27/14/4 60% TS during the series (28/11/6 61% TS over the playoff run as a whole) is pretty incredible like. That particular Los Angeles Lakers squad was boasting:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, All-NBA First Team/All-Defensive Second Team
Magic Johnson, All-NBA First Team
Michael Cooper, NBA All-Defensive First Team
Byron Scott, NBA All-Rookie 1st Team

Two Top 5 GOAT-level players both performing at an All-NBA 1st Team level, future HOFer 'Big Game' James Worthy putting up 18 ppg on 61% TS over the course of the playoffs, one of the greatest perimeter defenders in history Michael Cooper in his physical prime, HOFer Bob McAdoo (6MOY candidate) dropping double figures on top efficiency off the bench, Byron Scott in a productive rookie season, Pat Riley as Head Coach.

Bird was the only player on his team to make All-NBA 1st (or 2nd) team. He was the league's best player and NBA MVP, All-Defense 2nd Team as well, led the NBA in DWS. Dennis Johnson was All-D 2nd Team, Kevin McHale 6MOY.

Bird somehow willed his over-matched team to win this series. Just remarkable. And he did so with very little help, actually. I believe teammate-for-teammate, played below their normal levels.

[detrimental]

test

[K Xerxes]

Magic's 1987 Finals is also consistently underrated where all-time performances are concerned.

It is?

[ArbitraryWater]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

Imagine if this stuff happened to LeBron :lol

+ Comment:

The unfairness of the LA /BOS rivalry was this: Boston had to slug their way
past physical teams like Philly, NY, Milwaukee and Detroit. "The problem with our rivalry is that the Lakers could be out there playing at 80% and still get to the finals, but we had to bang & scratch & beat our way to get there" Bird said. "It was just a fact the East was stronger & more physical, we were taking a huge beating on our way to the finals and the Lakers were just sitting back, waiting for us to arrive."."

[mark]

Simple question. No banking on him winning future Mvps or titles; if he announced live on TV he was retiring where would you rank him and why?

I thought of this because of thinking how easier it is to gage Kobe and Duncan on the list with them being close to retirement, but Lebron is a different story. Majority of people have him in their top ten list and he seems to have like 6-8 more years of good playing left.

I currently have him at 9 but if he retired I would give him that slight retirement bump and maybe give him the 8th slot.

Greatest of all time. Aside from championships how many finals appearances with a weak supporting cast? Who else in nba history could do as many things as LeBron? If you start counting championships into consideration, Kerr is one of the greatest of all time. A bench warmer.

[the mesiah]

test
Edit that shit, and at least give a top 10.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'd say about 9th. Below Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Shaq. Good case over anyone else. He's getting closer to the Shaq tier than the Hakeem tier.

One more title season as the leading player on his team would open up the possibility of being argued as high as 5th, as it is quite difficult to rank Duncan, Bird, Magic and Shaq in a definite order. 3 titles to go along with 4 or more MVPs would put him in that category, so that one more title is crucial for his legacy.

That's true... Feels like 2 rings is a bit little for ATG's, while 3, especially as best player, is pretty damn elite... That's where players set each other apart.

Needs that 3rd title. You think he can get it? If he stays with Miami I actually don't...

[GODbe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

Imagine if this stuff happened to LeBron :lol

+ Comment:

The unfairness of the LA /BOS rivalry was this: Boston had to slug their way
past physical teams like Philly, NY, Milwaukee and Detroit. "The problem with our rivalry is that the Lakers could be out there playing at 80% and still get to the finals, but we had to bang & scratch & beat our way to get there" Bird said. "It was just a fact the East was stronger & more physical, we were taking a huge beating on our way to the finals and the Lakers were just sitting back, waiting for us to arrive."."
This must be exactly how KD, Duncan felt when going up against cHeat and Joey Crawford.

[G.O.A.T]

If you start counting championships into consideration, Kerr is one of the greatest of all time. A bench warmer.

Only if you're not able to differentiate between Steve Kerr's contributions to a title and Michael Jordan's.

[ArbitraryWater]

Only if you're not able to differentiate between Steve Kerr's contributions to a title and Michael Jordan's.

Yea but it gets really fishy when you just start to account Kobe with full credit for 5 rings.. production in his first 3 that many could replace.. especially ATG's.

[DMAVS41]

Yea but it gets really fishy when you just start to account Kobe with full credit for 5 rings.. production in his first 3 that many could replace.. especially ATG's.

Many could have replaced it in 00...well...a few

But not in 01 and 02. You aren't giving those enough credit.

[KBaller33]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

Imagine if this stuff happened to LeBron :lol

+ Comment:

The unfairness of the LA /BOS rivalry was this: Boston had to slug their way
past physical teams like Philly, NY, Milwaukee and Detroit. "The problem with our rivalry is that the Lakers could be out there playing at 80% and still get to the finals, but we had to bang & scratch & beat our way to get there" Bird said. "It was just a fact the East was stronger & more physical, we were taking a huge beating on our way to the finals and the Lakers were just sitting back, waiting for us to arrive."."

Exactly what I'm saying. LeBron's postseason this year was similar to Magic considering the opponents and strength of schedule. But no one wants to say anything about that.

[Ne 1]

Yea but it gets really fishy when you just start to account Kobe with full credit for 5 rings.. production in his first 3 that many could replace.. especially ATG's.
:facepalm

[Ne 1]

Many could have replaced it in 00...well...a few

But not in 01 and 02. You aren't giving those enough credit.
Exactly. Even in '00 he wasn't a superstar yet (which is why I don't view that ring as being as valuable as his other 4) , but he was still a top 10 player player and the best SG in the league, plus he stepped up in some huge moments throughout the playoffs which is why I don't think he's as replaceable as some think. '00 was also probably his peak defensive season. Could another star swingman have filled in his place and they still win a championship? It's certainly possible but there's no way of really knowing for sure and you're kidding yourself if you think Kobe was just some dime a dozen role player who was easily replaceable.

[G.O.A.T]

Yea but it gets really fishy when you just start to account Kobe with full credit for 5 rings.. production in his first 3 that many could replace.. especially ATG's.

It's not fishy. You don't do that.

Kobe was the second best player on those first three Championships. Just like a Scottie Pippen, it was very clear subjectively and objectively that Shaq was the key to those teams.

And just as people who like Kobe will try and say he was the best player in 2001 or 2002, or both, the people who don't like Kobe will try and say Gasol was the better player or the finals MVP in 2009 or 2010, which of course he was not.

Sometimes the best player on a Championship team is debatable like the '69 Celtics, '74 Celtics, '82 Lakers, '78 Bullets, '79 Sonics, '04 Pistons or even this years Spurs. But for the most part it's pretty clearly defined by a pattern of statistics, MVP voting and in the moment accounts.

If you just take the guys with multiple titles are the clear best player end up with:

Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron

which is essentially everyone's top eleven.

you also have

Mikan
Isiah

who fall into that category and

Havlicek
Cowens

either of who could have two depending on how you hack up '68, '69, '74 and '76.

People ignore Mikan because of era, or rank him at some nice round number like 25 or 50, but I think that's the wrong approach. Either use the shot clock as your cut off (foolish IMO as many players careers spanned much of both) or just put Mikan in the top 12 where he belongs. Isiah was part of a very deep and unique team and unlike the eleven guys above him and Dave Cowens, he never won an MVP nor was he a regular contender for the award.

In fact the top 11 all have the MVP and Finals MVP and each has at least two of one of those awards.

Cowens and Havlicek are both missing one (Cowens the Finals MVP, Hondo the regular season one).

So to those who aren't sure if winning matters. It does rather you understand it or not. By using winning and statistics/awards in context I can accurately predict (or at least come to the same conclusion my eyes already have) who the best players in NBA history are without having ever seen them play.

[SHAQisGOAT]

#11 but great case for top10, regardless


1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Wilt
then Hakeem/Kobe/LeBron

[Heavincent]

production in his first 3 that many could replace.. especially ATG's.

Pure ignorance.

Back to back 45+/10+ games in the playoffs....yup, easily replaceable production :facepalm

[SexSymbol]

13-15 range

[elementally morale]

Top 15
Stats take him there, heart and more wins would/could elevate him further.

I doubt he will make the top 10 and top 5 is out of the question at this point. He would need a mjoy character change to be able to achieve that.

[yeaaaman]

Obviously he recovered from 2010 and 2011, and he certainly didn't fail in this years finals.

Your post sounds only like someone trying to push an agenda.

2010 if that was the Magic series he played about as well as he could at the time. This year he didn't play the best but his teammates definitely didn't do their part, definitely can't fault him for losing the series.

2011 though I'm curious how you and other people see it affecting his legacy. I mean, I'm not sure if any players in the top 10 has had such an awful finals, especially in the 4th - and he's held to a high standard because people want to put him in that GOAT conversation, but I can't fathom how he can be put up there literally shrinking against a lesser opponent while in his prime.


[QUOTE]They've found that James has scored just 11 points in the fourth quarter in the Finals, which comes to an average of 2.2 points per game in that quarter, down from his average of 7.6 points in the previous three rounds this season. That means he's contributing less than a third of the scoring that he normally did heading into the series against Dallas.

But it gets worse. If we sharpen the focus to just crunch-time (less than five minutes remaining, score within five points), James' numbers fall off a cliff:

Perhaps most startling of all is LeBron James

[G.O.A.T.]

#1

[G.O.A.T]

2010 if that was the Magic series he played about as well as he could at the time. This year he didn't play the best but his teammates definitely didn't do their part, definitely can't fault him for losing the series.

2010 was the Celtics series where his body language looked real bad in the last few games and he just seemed done. They were up 2-1 then lost game four. In game five at Cleveland, Boston destroyed them and LeBron was like 3 for 15 (lots of jumpers) He played better in game six, played hard too, but the Celtics were rolling and people remember him going out as a Cav in a bad way.


2011 though I'm curious how you and other people see it affecting his legacy. I mean, I'm not sure if any players in the top 10 has had such an awful finals, especially in the 4th - and he's held to a high standard because people want to put him in that GOAT conversation, but I can't fathom how he can be put up there literally shrinking against a lesser opponent while in his prime. I mean we all know what happened, but to me that is a big stain on his legacy. I'm not sure how others think.

Had he not come back and done what he did the next two seasons it would have really hurt him. I think it's sort of validated him though. Let's remember that in 1981 Magic and the Lakers got knocked out in the first round, then he was a malcontent to start the next season, demanded a trade etc. It all worked out though and it's not considered a major blemish for Magic. Wilt wanted to quit after getting beaten in the 1960 playoffs. He lost the respect of a lot of players (some who were also a bit jealous and or racist) and after winning MVP in 1960 never did as well in the voting as he should have until 1964. But he matured, went on to led one of the greatest teams ever, deliver LA a title and adapt a much more unselfish game, so people remember the good, not the 22-year old Wilt's immaturity. Even Jordan had his share of setbacks, losing to the Pistons three years in a row. He was called selfish, a ball hog, not a winner etc. Then...well, I guess the point is, winning cures everything. If LeBron never wins another title, this SA series is gonna hang over his head a bit. If he does, people will forget about it as a negative and just remember it as another obstacle he eventually overcame.

[yeaaaman]

2010 was the Celtics series where his body language looked real bad in the last few games and he just seemed done. They were up 2-1 then lost game four. In game five at Cleveland, Boston destroyed them and LeBron was like 3 for 15 (lots of jumpers) He played better in game six, played hard too, but the Celtics were rolling and people remember him going out as a Cav in a bad way.

Right I was too lazy to look up what year which was, that series thanks.


Had he not come back and done what he did the next two seasons it would have really hurt him. I think it's sort of validated him though. Let's remember that in 1981 Magic and the Lakers got knocked out in the first round, then he was a malcontent to start the next season, demanded a trade etc. It all worked out though and it's not considered a major blemish for Magic. Wilt wanted to quit after getting beaten in the 1960 playoffs. He lost the respect of a lot of players (some who were also a bit jealous and or racist) and after winning MVP in 1960 never did as well in the voting as he should have until 1964. But he matured, went on to led one of the greatest teams ever, deliver LA a title and adapt a much more unselfish game, so people remember the good, not the 22-year old Wilt's immaturity. Even Jordan had his share of setbacks, losing to the Pistons three years in a row. He was called selfish, a ball hog, not a winner etc. Then...well, I guess the point is, winning cures everything. If LeBron never wins another title, this SA series is gonna hang over his head a bit. If he does, people will forget about it as a negative and just remember it as another obstacle he eventually overcame.

Right I agree partly, I think maybe afterwards when stuff settles people might not look back on it so harshly, I guess the reason I might and maybe other people would though is that, although everything you said about Magic and Jordan is true, I think the fact that this happened in the finals, at the biggest stage, is why its so crippling in terms of GOAT status. To be as dominant as he was and then basically be a no show is pretty bewildering for someone of his talent and place in the history books when its all said and done.

People won't remember the losses if he continues winning though, I just think that one is kind of a special case.

[lilteapot]

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) Magic Johnson
3.) Larry Bird
4.) Kareem Abdul Jabaar
5.) Wilt Chamberlain
6.) Oscar Robertson
7.) Bill Russell
8.) Shaq
9.) Tim Duncan
10.) Kobe Bryant
11.) Hakeem
12.) LeBron
13.) Dr. J
14.) The Logo aka Jerry West
15.) Scottie Pippen
16.) Dirk
17.) Reggie Miller
18.) Karl Malone
19.) John Stockton
20.) A.I. Aka the Answer
21.) Clyde the Glide Drexler
22.) Patrick Ewing
23.) Moses
how is oscar robertson greater than Lebron?

[ReturnofJPR]

I'd say about 9th. Below Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Shaq. Good case over anyone else. He's getting closer to the Shaq tier than the Hakeem tier.

One more title season as the leading player on his team would open up the possibility of being argued as high as 5th, as it is quite difficult to rank Duncan, Bird, Magic and Shaq in a definite order. 3 titles to go along with 4 or more MVPs would put him in that category, so that one more title is crucial for his legacy.

He's not better than Kobe, outside Top 10 for sure :cheers:

http://hoopeduponline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/kobe_bryant_hoh_nj.jpg

[red1]

definitely better than kobe, top 10 for sure

[Bosnian Sajo]

Yea but it gets really fishy when you just start to account Kobe with full credit for 5 rings.. production in his first 3 that many could replace.. especially ATG's.

:applause: Genius.

[pastis]

0 rings, 2 mvps without super stacked team

only in joke-conference

i put him right now rank 25-28.

if he wins it all in cleveland or with another team without multiple all-stars and future hofs, he will be top 10

[ReturnofJPR]

definitely better than kobe, top 10 for sure

When's the last time LeBron scored 81 points on your team? Has Kobe scored 81 on your squad b4?

[mehyaM24]

anyone that has lebron outside the top 10 loses all credibility

top 2 in winshares for 80% of his career (#1 since hitting his prime in 2009)

top 2 in player efficiency for 80% of his career (#1 since hitting his prime in 2009)

lebron without a doubt is the best of his era

[Ne 1]

I always get a good laugh when people bring up win shares in an argument....especially since most of the time the person doesn't even know what it means it or how it works. It is usually just some bogus way for a person to defend the player they are arguing for in a comparison.

[Black and White]

LeBron sits at #10-11 if he retired today on my list.

[mehyaM24]

I always get a good laugh when people bring up win shares in an argument....especially since most of the time the person doesn't even know what it means it or how it works. It is usually just some bogus way for a person to defend the player they are arguing for in a comparison.

wake me up when you think of something original. literally everything you post on here is from someone else.

you're by far the most useless poster here lol

[BigTicket]

I would put him at #11

Right now the following people are all ahead of him:

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaw
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem

If he continues to play at an elite level for a few more years, then I would probably move him above Hakeem. If he wins more titles/MVPs he could go as high as #5.

[Lamar Odumbb]

He could jump up to as high as 2/5 but I have him at 10 behind Hakeem.

[smoovegittar]

Behind Kobe.

[Lebron23]

Behind Kobe.


Hell No.

[Hey Yo]

When's the last time LeBron scored 81 points on your team? Has Kobe scored 81 on your squad b4?
When's the last time LeBron's taken 47 FGA and missed 30 of them against your team? Has Lebron ever missed 30FGA against your squad b4?

[MellowYellow]

Jordan
Kareem
Big O
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Magic
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
West
Shaq
Lebron

[Cold soul]

Behind Kobe.

Exactly.

[Inferno]

I probably have Bran just ahead of Bean

[TheMarkMadsen]

I probably have Bran just ahead of Bean

There is no way possible of ranking Bran if he retired today over a guy who is top 3 all time in scoring, top 3 all time in playoff scoring, has 5 rings, 2 FMVP, most all D Selections, most all nba selections & a plethora of other accolades.

[Black and White]

Hell No.

The thread states "if he retired today", LeBron currently doesn't have enough accolades yet, not to mention his career totals dont compare yet either.

[Cold soul]

I probably have Bran just ahead of Bean

Lol you must be on drugs.

[Inferno]

Ah, never mind. Not if he retired now.

I do think that Bron's peak > Bean's though, and that he'll be ranked higher when its all said and done.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The thread states "if he retired today", LeBron currently doesn't have enough accolades yet, not to mention his career totals dont compare yet either.

Not to mention 30+ year old Kobe won 2 rings with Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom a revolving door at SF & a short bench while it took prime Lebron 4 years of Wade/Bosh (2 all star teammates for 4 straight years) and the deepest team in the league in 12 & 13 to do the same.

[Anaximandro1]

Lebron should have won more titles (still remember his disappearing act in the 2011 NBA Finals)

On top of that, he has played in the post - hancheking era, in the Leastern conference, in a league without dominant big men. His biggest rivals have been 100 year old Duncan, the young Kawhi, Kevin Durant and the 32 year old Dirk.

Everything has been given to him on a silver platter ... LeBron has failed to meet expectations. Simple as that.

That said, LeBron is still relatively young and 2 titles, 2 FMVP and 4 MVP are excellent results. He still has room to grow.


TOP 10


1 - Jordan

2 - Russell

3 - Wilt

4 - Kareem

5 - Duncan

6 - Magic

7 - Shaq

8 - Bird

9 - LeBron

10 - Hakeem

[ThePhantomCreep]

10th

[Kvnzhangyay]

Greatest SF at all time, 9th on my all time.

[GODbe]

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaw
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem


http://myreactiongifs.com/gifs/nicolascageconfusedemotions.gif

[hkfosho]

http://myreactiongifs.com/gifs/nicolascageconfusedemotions.gif

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/The-Greatest-of-All-Time.jpg

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

[LA Lakers]

I think if the Heat had 3peated this year, he makes the top 10 or at least has a strong case. I have him in the top 20-25 all time. So hard to rank players outside the top 5(Mike, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bill Russell).