Elgin Baylor and Rick Barry > Scottie Pippen and John Havlicek

[CavaliersFTW]

Scottie Pippen and John Havlicek have not nor have they ever been in the same tier as players as Elgin Baylor or Rick Barry. Baylor or Barry were the greatest all-around players on the planet at various points of their careers, Players like Pippen and Havlicek were also great all around players but they were never landscape changing leaders in the basketball world. Pippen and Havlicek are Dominique Wilkins/James Worthy class of players in terms of impact which is not an insult to them at all. But it is an insult to Baylor or Barry when people think of Pippen or Havlicek as better players than those two because they see more "rings" or w/e. Nobody in the 1960's, not even in Boston, would tell you Havlicek was a better forward than Baylor nor would they say Havlicek was better than Barry or Erving after Baylor was done. Just like nobody would tell you in the 90's that Pippen equaled or usurped Larry Bird. Baylor and Barry are in the Larry Bird caliber of all-time talents, guys like Pippen and Havlicek are not.

I think the greatest SF's to ever play were

Baylor
Barry
Erving
Bird
Lebron

Durant is still building his stock we'll see where I put him eventually

Guys like Havlicek, English, Wilkins, Worthy, Pippen, Pierce etc are not superior to the guys in the first group. Fans and media were not talking about those guys as the "best players on the planet" yet they were saying those things about the guys in the first group. The guys in the first group were landscape changing players. Just my 2 cents on this. I make this post because I often see people pushing the lower tier guys like Pippen and Havlicek above players like Baylor and Barry, I can only assume they do this because of rings and not because they know anything about the actual players. Based on all the research I've done those guys clearly were not as good, not to a fans eye at the time nor among the eyes of other professionals.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen and Havlicek are Dominique Wilkins/James Worthy class of players in terms of impact which is not an insult to them at all.

Worthy made two all-NBA teams--the 3rd team--and was never a MVP candidate. Wilkins could not get past the second round. Wilkins was that era's Carmelo: a great scorer who did not have impact elsewhere and did nothing in the postseason.


Fans and media were not talking about those guys as the "best players on the planet" yet they were saying those things about the guys in the first group.

No, but there was talk about Pippen being the second best player in the league (i.e. Bob Ryan, Sports Illustrated, Chuck Daly--and MJ had Pippen #1 in 95', a view he confirmed privately years later so it was not simply pumping up a colleague).

I do agree with your basic premise, though, that Baylor and Barry were better than Pippen and Hondo. I just think Pippen and Hondo are a cut above Worthy, Wilkins, Pierce.

My tiers of SF's:

First: LeBron, Bird
Second: Dr. J, Baylor
Third: Barry, Hondo, Pippen
Fourth: Pierce, Worthy, Wilkins

Worthy, Pierce and Wilkins were never even the best player at their position. Pippen, Hondo were the best perimeter players in the league in some years and were at a peak level that was higher than those others. They were MVP-caliber; Worthy, Pierce, Wilkins never were. Pippen, Hondo compare to a Durant today; Pierce, Wilkins, Worthy compare to a Carmelo today--perennial all-stars who were never top 5 players in the league or the best at their position.

[Mass Debator]

True. Havlicek had high bball IQ and supernatural endurance but never dominated like Elgin Baylor, one of the most underrated players of all time.

[jongib369]

Scottie Pippen and John Havlicek have not nor have they ever been in the same tier as players as Elgin Baylor or Rick Barry. Baylor or Barry were the greatest all-around players on the planet at various points of their careers, Players like Pippen and Havlicek were also great all around players but they were never landscape changing leaders in the basketball world. Pippen and Havlicek are Dominique Wilkins/James Worthy class of players in terms of impact which is not an insult to them at all. But it is an insult to Baylor or Barry when people think of Pippen or Havlicek as better players than those two because they see more "rings" or w/e. Nobody in the 1960's, not even in Boston, would tell you Havlicek was a better forward than Baylor nor would they say Havlicek was better than Barry or Erving after Baylor was done. Just like nobody would tell you in the 90's that Pippen equaled or usurped Larry Bird. Baylor and Barry are in the Larry Bird caliber of all-time talents, guys like Pippen and Havlicek are not.

I think the greatest SF's to ever play were

Baylor
Barry
Erving
Bird
Lebron

Durant is still building his stock we'll see where I put him eventually

Guys like Havlicek, English, Wilkins, Worthy, Pippen, Pierce etc are not superior to the guys in the first group. Fans and media were not talking about those guys as the "best players on the planet" yet they were saying those things about the guys in the first group. The guys in the first group were landscape changing players. Just my 2 cents on this. I make this post because I often see people pushing the lower tier guys like Pippen and Havlicek above players like Baylor and Barry, I can only assume they do this because of rings and not because they know anything about the actual players. Based on all the research I've done those guys clearly were not as good, not to a fans eye at the time nor among the eyes of other professionals.
What's your reasoning to rank Barry over LeBron and Bird?

[CavaliersFTW]

What's your reasoning to rank Barry over LeBron and Bird?
it's in order of when they played, not a rank order

[kshutts1]

I have not watched enough of Baylor or Barry to really argue, but Pippen definitely did reinvent the sport, and was also arguably a top 3-5 player for a 5 year stretch.

I also consider Baylor more of an undersized 4 than anything. But whatever. I have Pippen and Hondo higher than some.

[CavaliersFTW]

I have not watched enough of Baylor or Barry to really argue, but Pippen definitely did reinvent the sport, and was also arguably a top 3-5 player for a 5 year stretch.

I also consider Baylor more of an undersized 4 than anything. But whatever. I have Pippen and Hondo higher than some.
Pippen didn't reinvent anything, what on earth did he reinvent? :biggums:

Baylor was definitely a "small" forward, he handled the ball and facilitated as good as any guard, he could effectively play any guard or forward position just like Lebron, but also just like Lebron his bread and butter was the smaller forward spot due to that versatility.

[kshutts1]

... but they were never landscape changing leaders in the basketball world...

That is the quote I was referencing by saying Pippen changed basketball.

Maybe you didn't mean stylistically (as I did) but rather competitively. No matter which way you slice it, Pippen, once Jordan retired the first time, seriously opened some eyes.

Again, this is all relative in that I admittedly didn't watch Baylor or Barry or even Hondo. I'm going by numbers and what little "eye witness accounts" I have seen.
As an example, I say Baylor was an undersized 4 because he averaged 18r in a season. Not because I have seen him play; literally just going by that.

So I'm a misinformed source. I know that, I acknowledge that. I was more "arguing" that Pippen was, in fact, a "landscape changing leader".

[DonDadda59]

14 rangz>1 rang

/Thread.

[moe94]

Who do you rank higher? Karl Malone or Dirk? Serious question, cavs.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen didn't reinvent anything, what on earth did he reinvent?

I assume he is referencing Pippen's role in promoting the concept of a "point forward." Yeah, he was not the first point forward but he is the one who brought the concept to prominence and set the stage for Grant Hill, LeBron and others after him.


Pippen definitely did reinvent the sport, and was also arguably a top 3-5 player for a 5 year stretch.

I agree. It is interesting how that seems to have been lost in the mists of time and people assume that he was a Carmelo or Pierce type, a player who spent his prime at the back end of the top 10 and was never among the top tier. The guy was all-NBA first team over prime Malone, prime Barkley and when players like Mullin, Grant Hill, and Wilkins were playing at the same position (MJ himself rated Pippen the best player in the league in 95'--a view he confirmed privately years later--and compared Pippen favorably to Magic and Bird regarding attaining a certain level of greatness). I wonder if 15-20 years from now people will wonder if Dwight Howard or Chris Paul were ever top 3-5 players.

[HurricaneKid]

I wouldn't necessarily put Pipp or Hondo ahead of those guys but I would submit that they were in the same tier as the bottom of your tier. Nique and the rest aren't really in the discussion. They aren't even close.

I'm pretty much in lock step with Roundball.

Elgin continues to be one of the more underrated players ever. I think some people were around for the end of his career and lower him based on that. But at his peak he was tremendous.

People ALWAYS neglect defensive prowess on the all-time rankings (outside of Russell). I think thats why I tend to have Scotty higher than many.

[moe94]

I agree. It is interesting how that seems to have been lost in the mists of time and people assume that he was a Carmelo or Pierce type, a player who spent his prime at the back end of the top 10 and was never among the top tier. The guy was all-NBA first team over prime Malone, prime Barkley and when players like Mullin, Grant Hill, and Wilkins were playing at the same position. I wonder if 15-20 years from now people will wonder if Dwight Howard or Chris Paul were ever top 3-5 players.

I think it has to do with the whole being "second fiddle" thing so much that using his name is synonymous with being the second best player on a team and sidekick.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think it has to do with the whole being "second fiddle" thing so much that using his name is synonymous with being the second best player on a team and sidekick.

Yeah, I think that is a big factor--but it illustrates how flawed the entire "sidekick" concept is. "Sidekick" is a relative thing. Pippen played with the GOAT!!! Of course he was not going to be the best player on the team. :lol That does not change how great he was individually, as he proved in 1994 and 1995 without MJ. If LeBron and Durant play together Durant automatically becomes the "sidekick." Does that mean Durant no longer is the second best player in the league?


People ALWAYS neglect defensive prowess on the all-time rankings (outside of Russell). I think thats why I tend to have Scotty higher than many.


Yeah. If you value defense and winning you will have Pippen and Hondo ranked significantly higher than those who don't weight those two things heavily. The knock against Baylor is he is ringless despite playing with Jerry West and making numberous Finals. If he won a ring he would be comparable to Hakeem.

Scoring does tend to be overvalued. If player A is putting up 20/9/6 and playing dominant defense and player B is posting 25/9/6 and is a defensive liability (think James Harden) who is having a greater impact on the game?

[CavaliersFTW]

That is the quote I was referencing by saying Pippen changed basketball.

Maybe you didn't mean stylistically (as I did) but rather competitively. No matter which way you slice it, Pippen, once Jordan retired the first time, seriously opened some eyes.

Again, this is all relative in that I admittedly didn't watch Baylor or Barry or even Hondo. I'm going by numbers and what little "eye witness accounts" I have seen.
As an example, I say Baylor was an undersized 4 because he averaged 18r in a season. Not because I have seen him play; literally just going by that.

So I'm a misinformed source. I know that, I acknowledge that. I was more "arguing" that Pippen was, in fact, a "landscape changing leader".
I see your point now okay. I have put together quite a bit of testimonial and archive footage of Baylor, this can at least give an idea what he looked like playing and what many coaches and peers thought of him when he played: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E

His rebounding was superb, that was one of his biggest strengths, but he definitely handled the ball and played like a small forward. He and Larry Bird have similar TRB%'s, with Baylor peaking slightly higher and Bird having a more steady level of rebounding excellence over the course of his career - by the time they retired their career TRB%'s are about the same, and about as good as any small forwards that have ever played. That doesn't necessarily pigeon hole them as PF's though, it just means they were abnormally great rebounding SF's

I've seen and listened too at least as much footage and testimonial of Havlicek and Barry, though I haven't put anything together for them yet. That's how I came up with my opinion.

[Kblaze8855]

Baylor or Barry were the greatest all-around players on the planet at various points of their careers

Im not sure he would get that status over Oscar in the mid to late 60s or Doc or Hondo in the early to mid 70s.

Ive heard respectable people claim Hondo was the best wing defender they saw...ever. And he was scoring 27-29 a game and getting rebounds and hanging near the top of the league in assists at the same time.

Hondo could walk out on the court and play 54 minutes full speed elite on both ends of the floor. Ive heard few people compare Barrys defensive ability to Hondo.

[CavaliersFTW]

Who do you rank higher? Karl Malone or Dirk? Serious question, cavs.
What's the criteria? Dirk's career isn't done yet, tough call. I don't usually do rankings, rather I tend to make groups with guys that are clear-cut among the best all-time at their position to the point that it's too tough to put them below or above similarly talented or accomplished players.

In no particular order Garnett, Barkley, Dirk, Malone, Duncan (for at least the first half of his career when he played the spot), Pettit... I mean depending on what part of their accomplishments you want to isolate and prioritize you could make a case for any one of those guys over the next.

[CavaliersFTW]

Im not sure he would get that status over Oscar in the mid to late 60s or Doc or Hondo in the early to mid 70s.

Ive heard respectable people claim Hondo was the best wing defender they saw...ever. And he was scoring 27-29 a game and getting rebounds and hanging near the top of the league in assists at the same time.

Hondo could walk out on the court and play 54 minutes full speed elite on both ends of the floor. Ive heard few people compare Barrys defensive ability to Hondo.
From 59-65 Elgin was being described as perhaps the best all around player in the game (I'm sure there was a debate to be had on this at the time, but he was a name in the hat), I base this on all the audio I have of narrators and coaches from that time period saying exactly that. I put a lot of that dialogue in the baylor mix I just made. By the late 60's to early 70's Baylor's injuries more or less put him out of the discussions and perhaps West who had gotten better, and certainly Robertson and Barry (who were both in that discussion from the moment they entered the NBA) were then the stronger candidates.

[Kblaze8855]

I suspect I could find someone calling Oscar the best all around player twice for every time you could find anyone saying it of Baylor.


Which has nothing to do with how good I think Baylor is...just saying. That was a pretty widespread opinion.

A lot of people who remember those days have Oscar ahead of Wilt and russell too.

[G.O.A.T]

I like Havlicek as much as Baylor and Barry. Three different players, but all three were outstanding.

Here's a really long post I did years back comparing Baylor/Erving/Hondo (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4137090#post4137090).

I had, and still have Barry a few spots behind those guys, but only because he was such a pain in the ass that he never had the type of team success he could and should have.

Putting those four in any order behind LeBron and Bird is pretty much okay with me.


I suspect I could find someone calling Oscar the best all around player twice for every time you could find anyone saying it of Baylor.


Which has nothing to do with how good I think Baylor is...just saying. That was a pretty widespread opinion.

A lot of people who remember those days have Oscar ahead of Wilt and russell too.


I tend to agree that Robertson is the player most highly regarded from people within that era as both an All-Around talent and an all-time great.

Here's a good quote for the topic from Oscar, speaking humbly about rather or not he's the greatest player ever...

Am I the best? Probably not. It's not for me to say. I played when I played, and played, I think, against the greatest players in the greatest time in the history of basketball. I'll let my record speak for itself. Actually, I hope my kids and wife think I'm the greatest (laughs). Who do I think was the greatest? This might shock you: Elgin Baylor. He did so many great things. Nobody could guard him, playing in the forward spot. I'd love to see some of today's greats playing against Elgin. They couldn't guard him. Nobody could.

[Roundball_Rock]

From 59-65 Elgin was being described as perhaps the best all around player in the game


I suspect I could find someone calling Oscar the best all around player twice for every time you could find anyone saying it of Baylor.

Speaking of that, plenty of people called Pippen the best all-around player in 1994 and 1995 and several more had him second for some of the MJ years. Coaches and GM's voted him the best all-around player in a poll for ESPN or SI--a poll in which Pip was the only player to receive votes in every category.

[CavaliersFTW]

I suspect I could find someone calling Oscar the best all around player twice for every time you could find anyone saying it of Baylor.


Which has nothing to do with how good I think Baylor is...just saying. That was a pretty widespread opinion.

A lot of people who remember those days have Oscar ahead of Wilt and russell too.
Sure, I'm not going to take anything away from Oscar. Baylor was a 24 year old rookie in 1958, who had knee-pain troubles as early as 1963 even before his right knee cracked in 1965, his reign being discussed as "best all around player" was a brief and specific period of time, the very early 60's is when those dialogue clips about him being the best all around player in the game come from. But he definitely was at that level. With Oscar, it was more or less the entire 1960's decade he was in that discussion, which is great for him Im not trying to sell him short or anything but I'm talking about forwards in the OP.

I will entertain this sidebar a little further though. When people talk about the best all around players, I think longevity at doing they did and who watched them play, and when they watched them effects everyone's conclusions. Guys like Nate Thurmond for example, will say in interview Oscar or Jordan are the two best all around players he ever saw. Thurmond however, from what I understand did not really see Baylor in his peak unless he was catching Lakers games in Akron or Bowling Green Ohio in the early 60's and late 50's. Bill Russell and Chick Hearn for example, saw Oscar and Baylor both at their peaks, they are/were more apt to mention Baylor in such a discussion. Bill Russell has recently stated Baylor was the "best" player he ever saw, I don't know what his criteria was but I can only assume it was just all around ability since it obviously couldn't be championship accolades. Oscar btw, also thinks Baylor is the best player he ever saw. Of course, since it's directly from him he probably wouldn't put himself in the comparison. Chick Hearn and Red Aurbach also put Baylor as their all-time forward next to Larry Bird. Again, they can't be doing that due to his team success so it's got to be what they saw in his all-around ability to play the game. I think at one point in time, even if it was a brief window, Baylor was among the best 'all-around' players to ever play the game.

[WillC]

Rick Barry has certainly become one of the most underrated players in basketball history.

Many fans (and journalists) now rank him in the mid-20s all-time, which is ridiculous.

For example, in 1997, Slam magazine ranked Barry as the 12th best player of all-time (which, at the time, was the right call). Just six years later, in 2003, they ranked him 21st overall.

What happened in the space of six years to warrant him falling 9 places? He was suddenly overtaken by the likes of Isiah Thomas, John Havlicek, John Stockton and Walt Frazier.

None of those players were as good as Rick Barry.

[senelcoolidge]

Barry gets lots of hate. If the media doesn't like you than you are not going to be portrayed in a good light..kind of like Wilt. You have to make a Barry video at some point. Great great player. Just a difficult personality. Only guy to lead the NCAA, ABA, and NBA in scoring. Incredibly smart player on the court.

[Round Mound]

[B]Elgin Baylor is the Older NBA Version of Charles Barkley.

Those 2 Are The Most Underrated Great Players of All Time. They Totally Dominated More Than 90% Of Their Positions. But Since They Don

[inclinerator]

no loul deng on that list?

[Gifted Mind]

I've always said John Havlicek is an underrated player. I stand by this statement in this thread. One of the most underrated abilities is the ability to play with others.

[CavaliersFTW]

bump... in light of the recent "SF" thread

[played0ut]

Consider also that Pippen developed his game to directly complement MJ's-- he never went the route of Dr. J or Baylor with their first option high scoring route.

Also, consider Havlicek was the 6th man for the majority of his career. The years he started he was averaging apprx 25/8/7.

Talent/skillwise, I think they could have competed with the best as first option. But they didn't have the opportunity, so history will overlook them....



My tiers of SF's:

First: LeBron, Bird
Second: Dr. J, Baylor
Third: Barry, Hondo, Pippen
Fourth: Pierce, Worthy, Wilkins


I agree with this pretty much.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

My tiers of SF's:

First: LeBron, Bird
Second: Dr. J, Baylor
Third: Barry, Hondo, Pippen
Fourth: Pierce, Worthy, Wilkins



I'd put Melo in the 3rd tier...and Durant probably ends up in the 2nd...

[L.Kizzle]

From 59-65 Elgin was being described as perhaps the best all around player in the game (I'm sure there was a debate to be had on this at the time, but he was a name in the hat), I base this on all the audio I have of narrators and coaches from that time period saying exactly that. I put a lot of that dialogue in the baylor mix I just made. By the late 60's to early 70's Baylor's injuries more or less put him out of the discussions and perhaps West who had gotten better, and certainly Robertson and Barry (who were both in that discussion from the moment they entered the NBA) were then the stronger candidates.
Baylor was a better scorer rebounder and defender. Oscar was the better passer and shooter. they were both 6'5.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'd put Melo in the 3rd tier...and Durant probably ends up in the 2nd...

I agree on Durant but right now I see Carmelo on a trajectory to be in the 4th tier. He is the Dominique of this era: a great scorer who does not impact the game in other ways and achieves no team success.

[pudman13]

Scottie Pippen and John Havlicek have not nor have they ever been in the same tier as players as Elgin Baylor or Rick Barry.

I think you're right, but it is worth noting that unlike Pippen, Havlicek was arguably the best player on two title teams. (1969 and 1974.)

[1987_Lakers]

I tend to agree with the OP. If we are talking about strictly peak play, then Barry & Baylor are above Havlicek & Pippen.

Barry might have been an A-hole, but he could ball. I don't think anyone considered Havlicek to be a better player than Barry when both were at their peak.

[jayfan]

Speaking of that, plenty of people called Pippen the best all-around player in 1994 and 1995

Who, exactly? Pretty sure Hakeem had that title wrapped up.








.

[Roundball_Rock]

Who, exactly? Pretty sure Hakeem had that title wrapped up.


NBA coaches voted Pippen that in one of those years. There also were press references to him being the best "all-around" player. That is not the same thing as being the best player--but it is similar to Havlicek or Baylor being called that despite neither ever being the best player in the league.

[Kvnzhangyay]

It is interesting that only in basketball a lot of older players are better than "modern" players :confusedshrug:

Never watched Baylor/Barry so I have no comment on that though

[CavaliersFTW]

It is interesting that only in basketball a lot of older players are better than "modern" players :confusedshrug:

Never watched Baylor/Barry so I have no comment on that though
Lebron is in the same class of player as Baylor and Barry... and above that of Pippen, or Havlicek. You see, there is no one way street of opinions towards older players in comparison to modern players like you are imagining. Credit is given when credit is due. I can already tell from seeing just two recent posts of yours that you are probably a whiny little bitch when it comes to discussing "older players" because you imply that you feel that the people who know the history of the game aren't being fair to players that are currently playing, when that isn't the case at all. Some people like to be just as acutely aware of what has already been accomplished in the game, as what is currently being accomplished by today's incredible talent. If there is no talent today that compares to a talent of the past, it will be pointed out. Such as centers, today's centers aren't accomplishing what many past centers accomplished. Likewise, this can go both ways. There haven't been many point guard MVP's, so guys like Derrick Rose (barring injury) are doing great things too. There's no reason to be jealous of past players getting positive attention.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Lebron is in the same class of player as Baylor and Barry... and above that of Pippen, or Havlicek. You see, there is no one way street of opinions towards older players in comparison to modern players like you are imagining. Credit is given when credit is due. I can already tell from seeing just two recent posts of yours that you are probably a whiny little bitch when it comes to discussing "older players" because you imply that you feel that the people who know the history of the game aren't being fair to players that are currently playing, when that isn't the case at all. Some people like to be just as acutely aware of what has already been accomplished in the game, as what is currently being accomplished by today's incredible talent. If there is no talent today that compares to a talent of the past, it will be pointed out. Such as centers, today's centers aren't accomplishing what many past centers accomplished. Likewise, this can go both ways. There haven't been many point guard MVP's, so guys like Derrick Rose (barring injury) are doing great things too. There's no reason to be jealous of past players getting positive attention.

Dang calm down brah no need to be so sensitive to different opinions :lol :lol

Can't believe you wrote a paragraph just to defend your view from something I wrote in about 10 seconds :applause: :applause:

[cltcfn2924]

I wouldn't necessarily put Pipp or Hondo ahead of those guys but I would submit that they were in the same tier as the bottom of your tier. Nique and the rest aren't really in the discussion. They aren't even close.

I'm pretty much in lock step with Roundball.

Elgin continues to be one of the more underrated players ever. I think some people were around for the end of his career and lower him based on that. But at his peak he was tremendous.

People ALWAYS neglect defensive prowess on the all-time rankings (outside of Russell). I think thats why I tend to have Scotty higher than many.


Hondo may have been the best perimeter defensive player ever.

[steve]

I agree with CFTW's approximation here. LeBron, Bird, Erving, Barry, and Baylor are the class of the Small Forwards with Pippen and Hondo being slightly behind them. Since we're talking about the best of the best here, it tends to get a little nitpicky and as great as Pippen and Havlicek were, I'd be hard pressed to really put them exactly on equal footing with those five. The argument could be made. I'd definitely include Billy Cunningham with them (kind of surprised he hasn't really been brought up, but that might have something to do with my next point).

There was some discussion in another thread and it sort of gets touched on here about what actually constitutes as a small forward. LeBron, Bird, and Baylor all spent some time at the 4 at various points in their career (and Pippen even spent a good amount of time there in the Bulls second threepeat, depending on how exactly you'd classify Kukoc). But that's different than being a power forward or small forward. Despite them having different designations on the court during their career there's very little debate that everyone recognizes them as small forwards and I think a lot of that has to do with how their offensive games are presented (which is really where most of the positional labels come for most players, the one exception probably being center).

All of these players' offensive games extend from the wing in. They might have post games but more often then not when they attack the defense, it's from a face up position starting on the wing. This is different than say Nowitzki who clearly faces up his defender when attacking them but then is offense still starts from the interior and then moves out even if his post game (and it is a post game) has been one of the most unique in history. Positions when we're looking at them from a historical context has much more to do with how a player attacks or approaches the game rather what their positional designation happens to be when the game starts.

[bizil]

Of the guys listed, peak wise to me it's like this:

Baylor
Barry
Hondo
Pippen

However, Barry and Hondo in my opinion were both point forward kind of players to an extent AND were alpha dog level scorers. And in terms of being a complete player on BOTH SIDES of the rock, Hondo ONLY take a backseat to Lebron at the SF. Pippen is close, but he's not an alpha dog, and Hondo was. GOAT wise, I would also rank Hondo number one on this list.

Baylor was the first freak athlete alpha dog scoring machine. From there it went to Hawkins, then Doc, then Nique, then Lebron. Those are the five definitive freak athlete scoring machines at the SF of all time. All defined it for their given eras basically. I think Bron is the best because he was a point forward and great defender on top of it. That all time 60's team starting five with Wilt, Russell, Baylor, West, and Big O fits together more perfectly than any all decade team. I'm not saying they are the best, but in terms of fit and all around completeness, that team is a BEAST!

[L.Kizzle]

Of the guys listed, peak wise to me it's like this:

Baylor
Barry
Hondo
Pippen

However, Barry and Hondo in my opinion were both point forward kind of players to an extent AND were alpha dog level scorers. And in terms of being a complete player on BOTH SIDES of the rock, Hondo ONLY take a backseat to Lebron at the SF. Pippen is close, but he's not an alpha dog, and Hondo was. GOAT wise, I would also rank Hondo number one on this list.

Baylor was the first freak athlete alpha dog scoring machine. From there it went to Hawkins, then Doc, then Nique, then Lebron. Those are the five definitive freak athlete scoring machines at the SF of all time. All defined it for their given eras basically. I think Bron is the best because he was a point forward and great defender on top of it.
Don't forget Gus Johnson and George McGinnis and Larry Johnson. All had a build similar to Gus. And before Elgin even was Maurice Stokes.

[bizil]

Don't forget Gus Johnson and George McGinnis and Larry Johnson. All had a build similar to Gus. And before Elgin even was Maurice Stokes.

Ya those guys were great. But I was just stating the five guys who defined that style the most. Guys who were among the best scorers in the world and virtually unstoppable. Stokes and Johnson were't alpha dog level players. They were freak athletes though no question about it. Those guys aren't as legendary as Elgin, Hawkins, Doc, Nique, or Bron. Also Larry Johnson's best days were at PF in my opinion. I think of the guys u named that McGinnis was the closest to the guys I named in terms o f level of dominance.

[Marchesk]

No, but there was talk about Pippen being the second best player in the league (i.e. Bob Ryan, Sports Illustrated, Chuck Daly--and MJ had Pippen #1 in 95', a view he confirmed privately years later so it was not simply pumping up a colleague)..

Pippen was not better than Hakeem, Barkley, Malone or Drexler.

It really helps to have MJ on your team. Pippen was great and all, but damn, it makes a difference to have what most people consider the GOAT as your number one option.

Imagine if any of those guys above had MJ as their teammate most of their careers. Would make a big difference.

[Psileas]

Pippen was not better than Hakeem, Barkley, Malone or Drexler.

It really helps to have MJ on your team. Pippen was great and all, but damn, it makes a difference to have what most people consider the GOAT as your number one option.

Imagine if any of those guys above had MJ as their teammate most of their careers. Would make a big difference.

I think he has a better case than Drexler if we're talking 1995. But you have to also add in your list Shaq and Robinson, arguably Ewing as well.

[Marchesk]

I think he has a better case than Drexler if we're talking 1995. But you have to also add in your list Shaq and Robinson, arguably Ewing as well.

Forgot about Shaq and Ewing.

[pudman13]

Of the guys listed, peak wise to me it's like this:

Baylor
Barry
Hondo


I just finished Rick Barry's biography, which included small sections written by other people.

A couple of things fit perfectly with the above rank order.

Barry repeatedly said that Baylor was his role model, that he would watch him on TV (Oh, if only those videos still existed!!) and then go out and copy his moves.

It's really hard to assess Barry for a few reasons. He was clearly still great in 1975, an offensive player who could shoot from anywhere, get off a shot whenever he wanted, and who had some bizarre and fantastic moves to the hoop as well, and unlike earlier in his career (by his own admission) an intermittently great defensive player too. The 1975 finals is really the only chunk of Barry's career that exists on video and shows him as an alpha dog. This Barry, as with the late 60s Baylor, is one who was playing with bone on bone and had lost a huge chunk of the athleticism that he had early in his career. There's no footage of him during his amazing 1966-1967 season, nor during his ABA career (except for taht one ABA/NBA all star game.) I suspect that if a few games from that one season were to surface, we'd see a way more athletic Barry and it would be amazing to behold...everything we saw in 1975, but with a speed and jumping ability we never knew he had. It's also hard to assess a guy whose career was such a jumble, with the missing year, the time in the ABA, the injuries, etc... What he could have been is as tantalizing as what Connie Hawkins could have been.

RE: Barry ahead of Havlicek, Nate Thurmond said (in the days before Larry Bird) that Jerry West and Rick Barry were the best white players he'd ever seen, bar none, so I guess that leaves Havlicek somewhere below them. What Havlicek had, and it's hard to quantify, was an amazing knack for saving his very best for the most amazing and exciting moments ever. Those double overtime games in the 1974 and 1976 finals, the famous steal, etc... He was just insane. I think he even outclasses West for rising to the moment. I think years later he would be one-upped by a few others (Magic maybe, Bird and Jordan definitely), but there is nobody who made as many clutch plays in the final minutes of playoff games than Havlicek.

[La Frescobaldi]

I just finished Rick Barry's biography, which included small sections written by other people.

A couple of things fit perfectly with the above rank order.

Barry repeatedly said that Baylor was his role model, that he would watch him on TV (Oh, if only those videos still existed!!) and then go out and copy his moves.

It's really hard to assess Barry for a few reasons. He was clearly still great in 1975, an offensive player who could shoot from anywhere, get off a shot whenever he wanted, and who had some bizarre and fantastic moves to the hoop as well, and unlike earlier in his career (by his own admission) an intermittently great defensive player too. The 1975 finals is really the only chunk of Barry's career that exists on video and shows him as an alpha dog. This Barry, as with the late 60s Baylor, is one who was playing with bone on bone and had lost a huge chunk of the athleticism that he had early in his career. There's no footage of him during his amazing 1966-1967 season, nor during his ABA career (except for taht one ABA/NBA all star game.) I suspect that if a few games from that one season were to surface, we'd see a way more athletic Barry and it would be amazing to behold...everything we saw in 1975, but with a speed and jumping ability we never knew he had. It's also hard to assess a guy whose career was such a jumble, with the missing year, the time in the ABA, the injuries, etc... What he could have been is as tantalizing as what Connie Hawkins could have been.

RE: Barry ahead of Havlicek, Nate Thurmond said (in the days before Larry Bird) that Jerry West and Rick Barry were the best white players he'd ever seen, bar none, so I guess that leaves Havlicek somewhere below them. What Havlicek had, and it's hard to quantify, was an amazing knack for saving his very best for the most amazing and exciting moments ever. Those double overtime games in the 1974 and 1976 finals, the famous steal, etc... He was just insane. I think he even outclasses West for rising to the moment. I think years later he would be one-upped by a few others (Magic maybe, Bird and Jordan definitely), but there is nobody who made as many clutch plays in the final minutes of playoff games than Havlicek.
Barry was not as much of a high-flyer as his son, although he was more fleet.

All the rest is mostly true except that ending.

Sam Jones was even more clutch than Hondo, or anybody else afaik. Sam was an elite player but on top of that he was Robert Horry x4.

There were some mixes of RB on youtube at one time but his best days were ABA and like all the elite ABA players, he was beating lesser levels of talent in the role and bench players in that weaker league.