It's Crazy how Dr. J isn't a Top 10 GOAT

[sammichoffate]

He paved the way for so many greats, but he's not in the top 10 list himself. It's insane if you think about it, dude was just a monster back in the day :eek:

[navy]

ABA ****ed him over.

[moe94]

He spent a good chunk of his best years in the ABA and that ABA never existed

[sammichoffate]

It's a damn shame too, he's one of those players who you have to talk about when looking at NBA history as a whole.

[JtotheIzzo]

WEAK era for bandwagons

[Nowitness]

He isn't really top 25, he had no shot, no defense, played in the worst league during the worst era and could do nothing but dunk.

Third option on a contender isn't top 10 to me.

[Dbrog]

He isn't really top 25, he had no shot, no defense, played in the worst league during the worst era and could do nothing but dunk.

Third option on a contender isn't top 10 to me.

Hey man I think you accidently posted in the wrong thread. We discussing Julius Erving not Anthony Bennett or James White.

On topic = He didn't win enough championships and was a very unselfish player. Those are really the only reasons.

[jstern]

He isn't really top 25, he had no shot, no defense, played in the worst league during the worst era and could do nothing but dunk.

Third option on a contender isn't top 10 to me.

Did you watch him play in that era?

[Nowitness]

Did you watch him play in that era?

Yes I did. I'd take David Thompson over The Saltwater.

[unbreakable]

average shooter
average passer
average defender
average rebounder

top 10? LOL

[jstern]

Yes I did. I'd take David Thompson over The Saltwater.

I just looked at your profile, it says that you were born in 1995. So why not let people who actually saw him play make their case, instead of thinking you know anything about anything. Life is not that simplistic where you can go, "I believe this, so I'm right even though I know very little about a subject."

[lilteapot]

I just looked at your profile, it says that you were born in 1995. So why not let people who actually saw him play make their case, instead of thinking you know anything about anything. Life is not that simplistic where you can go, "I believe this, so I'm right even though I know very little about a subject."

When were you born?

[jstern]

When were you born?

I was born1982, and I'm not making any comments about Dr. J or his era since I wasn't alive/was extremely young back then, nor have I watched hundreds of hours of games of his and his competition to have a deep understanding of him and his game.

[lilteapot]

How is it crazy when it makes sense that there are 10 greater basketball players ever?

[JellyBean]

Dr. J has the perfect attitude about this "all-time greats" list. It was around the time when that dude who wore #23 won his back to back titles. And reporters were going through the list of all-time greats. The reporters were dropping names left and right, Kareem, Larry, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Jordan.....anyway the reporter gets to Doc's name, they were around 15-18 range by then, Doc was "Dude. I really don't care where they place me. I know I am among the greats!" Doc goes on to say some other really cool stuff. But the part that remains with me to this day was when he said "Pretty soon, you are going to have drop somebody from that top ten. Then what?" This was all before the NBA 50 greatest players were announced, by 2-3 years roughly. To me, Doc gets it. As long as his name is among the greats, he his cool with that position. Because you can't deny his greatness. I don't care ABA or NBA, the Doc was awesome.

[ThePhantomCreep]

His stock would be even higher had he and the Sixers not coughed up the 1977 Finals. As such, he's top 15-ish, and major trendsetter in NBA history.

[SHAQisGOAT]

He isn't really top 25, he had no shot, no defense, played in the worst league during the worst era and could do nothing but dunk.

Third option on a contender isn't top 10 to me.


That post was completely terrible and couldn't be further from the actual truth.

3rd option on a contender? :facepalm You don't know what you're talking about, child... (Only in the NBA) Doc went to the Finals as 1st-option, more than once, and won a ring as a great 2nd option.


average shooter
average passer
average defender
average rebounder

top 10? LOL

:roll: Y'all ****** killing me :facepalm

He was never close to a great shooter, no, never had what you call a reliable jumper plus he didn't have lots of range, but he could hit plenty of shots from close to the paint, he could create his own shot/shoot off the dribble, and he's a career 78% FT shooter... Overall, definitely an above average shooter. And when teams tried to give him space to prevent the drive, he could make them pay, plenty of times.

Doc was a solid passer and nice playmaker due to his scoring skills/assets too. He was constantly near the top in terms of APG for a forward.

10.5 TRB% for his career (in the NBA), over 12% at his best, pulling down around 7 RPG, even reaching 8, as a SF... Just average :rolleyes: And he raised it up in the post-season, along with his overall game.

He's one of the GOAT off-ball defenders, that's right, even was top10 in steals and blocks combined, twice, while VERY FEW have ever done the same once.

Not to mention, dude's arguably the GOAT finisher at the rim, he had great soft-touch from up close and was a pretty good post-up player. Sick in transition. Never stopped coming at you.

Some (ignorant) people think J was all about dunking or some shit like that :rolleyes: :facepalm Yea he was an athletic freak with a great physique and big hands, but you have to be considerably more than that to be able to do what he did, plenty of great athletes didn't do shit in the league.
And plenty of people also underrate his NBA career, while completely neglecting what he did in the ABA (I don't "count it" nearly as much as the NBA though).

He has a great case for top15 and I think I have him there, at least top20.

[MiseryCityTexas]

He isn't really top 25, he had no shot, no defense, played in the worst league during the worst era and could do nothing but dunk.

Third option on a contender isn't top 10 to me.


Uhh he was a great one on one defender, and he could block shots.

[Dr.J4ever]

That post was completely terrible and couldn't be further from the actual truth.

3rd option on a contender? :facepalm You don't know what you're talking about, child... (Only in the NBA) Doc went to the Finals as 1st-option, more than once, and won a ring as a great 2nd option.



:roll: Y'all ****** killing me :facepalm

He was never close to a great shooter, no, never had what you call a reliable jumper plus he didn't have lots of range, but he could hit plenty of shots from close to the paint, he could create his own shot/shoot off the dribble, and he's a career 78% FT shooter... Overall, definitely an above average shooter. And when teams tried to give him space to prevent the drive, he could make them pay, plenty of times.

Doc was a solid passer and nice playmaker due to his scoring skills/assets too. He was constantly near the top in terms of APG for a forward.

10.5 TRB% for his career (in the NBA), over 12% at his best, pulling down around 7 RPG, even reaching 8, as a SF... Just average :rolleyes: And he raised it up in the post-season, along with his overall game.

He's one of the GOAT off-ball defenders, that's right, even was top10 in steals and blocks combined, twice, while VERY FEW have ever done the same once.

Not to mention, dude's arguably the GOAT finisher at the rim, he had great soft-touch from up close and was a pretty good post-up player. Sick in transition. Never stopped coming at you.

Some (ignorant) people think J was all about dunking or some shit like that :rolleyes: :facepalm Yea he was an athletic freak with a great physique and big hands, but you have to be considerably more than that to be able to do what he did, plenty of great athletes didn't do shit in the league.
And plenty of people also underrate his NBA career, while completely neglecting what he did in the ABA (I don't "count it" nearly as much as the NBA though).

He has a great case for top15 and I think I have him there, at least top20.


Thanks Shaq, couldn't have said it better myself. Overall, Doc went to 5 Finals(2 in the ABA) as the no. 1 option. On his 6th Finals attempt, he deferred to Moses in the half court on a team that was previously built around him. Yes, Moses got the boards and key half court shots, just like Magic passed to Kareem in the half court, and just like Bird tossed it into Mchale and Parish.

If you look at his body of work, and his monster ABA stats, he is 2nd to none among SFs, in my opinion. Whenever I post ABA facts vs. the NBA, no one has been able to refute this. In my opinion, and lots of experts as well, by the time the ABA merged with the NBA, there was rough parity between the leagues.

[CavaliersFTW]

Dr. J was known as "a man with 1,000 moves" he literally could do anything and everything with a basketball. His array of moves is probably greater than 97% of all players that have ever played if not more because his physical tool set and his body control was so out of this world. I honestly think based on footage I've got that his body control exceeded even that of Michael Jordan. Anybody who says all he could do is dunk should be executed by firing squad at dawn. Some of the shots and passes he made aren't even able to be duplicated by any active player in the league today.

[Dr.J4ever]

Dr. J was known as "a man with 1,000 moves" he literally could do anything and everything with a basketball. His array of moves is probably greater than 97% of all players that have ever played if not more because his physical tool set and his body control was so out of this world. I honestly think based on footage I've got that his body control exceeded even that of Michael Jordan. Anybody who says all he could do is dunk should be executed by firing squad at dawn. Some of the shots and passes he made aren't even able to be duplicated by any active player in the league today.

To this day, I haven't seen anyone do the things Doc used to do on a regular basis in the open court. Not Jordan, not Kobe, and not even Lebron. I still see Lebron get stopped in the open court occasionally, and say to myself, Doc would have sidestepped and finger rolled over that one.

Best open court player of all time.:bowdown:

[SouBeachTalents]

His NBA resume isn't even close to top 10, it's barely top 25

[CavaliersFTW]

To this day, I haven't seen anyone do the things Doc used to do on a regular basis in the open court. Not Jordan, not Kobe, and not even Lebron. I still see Lebron get stopped in the open court occasionally, and say to myself, Doc would have sidestepped and finger rolled over that one.

Best open court player of all time.:bowdown:
Based on the footage I've got, Doc did shit even Vince Carter couldn't do athletically. Not talking about dunking here, just all around smoothness and agility, with the massive hands and condor wingspan he had

[kentatm]

He isn't really top 25, he had no shot, no defense, played in the worst league during the worst era and could do nothing but dunk.
.

yo brah

your basketball knowledge is severely lacking if this is what you think

[PickernRoller]

Above Lebron on my list. :bowdown:

[SouBeachTalents]

Above Lebron on my list. :bowdown:

What's your argument for that?

[GimmeThat]

it shows you how crowded the top 10 list is

even when you take into the consideration of his ABA accolades

Bird might still be ahead of him.


the MVP award with the NBA really helped his case.
but it'd be really be about whether or not he's got an argument over Hakeem.

I think had he won the finals MVP, people would really favor his case.

and I think if you could argue that roughly 2 steal a game equates to the impact of 3.5+ blocks a game on top of his man on man defense. than yeah.

only hakeem posted up pretty good steal numbers as a Center himself.


he's probably right along with Big O in terms of old timers favoring him in the top 10. If we go with best players by height, they are right up there.

the addition of the 3 point line, some may argue has helped the smaller players to make a case on becoming an all time great though, hasn't it?




eras

[sammichoffate]

To this day, I haven't seen anyone do the things Doc used to do on a regular basis in the open court. Not Jordan, not Kobe, and not even Lebron. I still see Lebron get stopped in the open court occasionally, and say to myself, Doc would have sidestepped and finger rolled over that one.

Best open court player of all time.:bowdown:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjrdGywF0Ks
:eek:

[oarabbus]

Dr J - one of the most overrated players of all time. Top 10? :oldlol:

[Dr.J4ever]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAvhvpQ7DSw

Air Doctor? ^

Excerpts from Wiki:

Erving won three championships, four Most Valuable Player Awards, and three scoring titles with the ABA's Virginia Squires and New York Nets (now the NBA's Brooklyn Nets) and the NBA's Philadelphia 76ers. He is the fifth-highest scorer in ABA/NBA history with 30,026 points (NBA and ABA combined). He was well known for slam dunking from the free throw line in Slam Dunk Contests and was the only player voted Most Valuable Player in both the American Basketball Association and the National Basketball Association.

Erving was inducted in 1993 into the Basketball Hall of Fame and was also named to the NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time team. In 1994, Erving was named by Sports Illustrated as one of the 40 most important athletes of all time. In 2004, he was inducted into the

[wally_world]

Players who played with or watched Dr J play growing up always has him in their top 10

[The-Legend-24]

Who?

[TAZORAC]

He paved the way for so many greats, but he's not in the top 10 list himself. It's insane if you think about it, dude was just a monster back in the day :eek:

Dr J wasn't that great of a basketball player, he just did some exciting moves. Limited jump shooter, couldn't really handle the ball.

That being said he can YOUR top GOAT.

[bizil]

For many years, Doc was in the top 10 NBA GOAT. Before Magic, Bird, and MJ built their resumes at their respective positions, Doc was the GOAT SF. And right there with Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Big O, and West in the top 6-7 NBA GOAT. But as time went on, guys like Magic, Bird, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, and Lebron built up their resumes and lowered Doc, Big O, and West down.

But here's the thing with Doc. If u say the top 10 GOAT in PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY (NBA and ABA), I think Doc is STILL in the top 10-11. If u look at Doc's TOTAL RESUME, I think he has the most impressive resume of all time for a SF. Plus Doc was the bridge between the ABA and NBA merger AS WELL AS being the living legend Stern built his original marketing schemes around. Bird, Magic, and later MJ were the stars building their legacies. Peak value wise, Bron and Bird are the only SF's FOR SURE I would take over Doc as it is. And longevity wise, Dr. J was more durable than Bird as well. My top 11 GOAT counting NBA and ABA include: (my first five are set in stone, after that the list could be arranged in many ways)

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Russell
Kobe
Dr. J
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Bron

With the impact the ABA has had on the NBA and ABA teams being absorbed into the NBA, I think that should carry a lot of weight. When I think of Dr. J, I think a top 10 GOAT player of all time PERIOD! Sure for a strictly NBA list, he won't make a top 10. He would be in that top 15 range.

[bizil]

Dr J wasn't that great of a basketball player, he just did some exciting moves. Limited jump shooter, couldn't really handle the ball.

That being said he can YOUR top GOAT.

WOW! For starters the bottom line is RESULTS! If u can average 27-30 points in your prime WITHOUT a great jump shot, to me that's VERY IMPRESSIVE! That means Doc put the heat on the D with his slashing in the half court as well as in transition. He would also get to the line often and was a great rebounder for a SF. In terms of handles, it's about getting to where u need to go. Doc was a SF and not a PG. Doc had an epic first step, freak athletic ability, and craftiness that supercedes great handles.

His slashing was so epic, it SET UP his midrange game. And Doc did have a good midrange game, but it wasn't great like Bird, English, Dantley, or King in that era. To score as many points as Doc did into the late 80's, u had to be great. U can't score as many points as Doc did only on dunks. Doc was doing things with those mitts that players today still can't do. Watch the way the guys like Doc, Gervin, and MJ do layups. That's epic skill level that transcends ANY ERA!

[Sarcastic]

His NBA resume isn't even close to top 10, it's barely top 25


He shouldn't be judged only on his NBA resume. To do that would be an injustice. His ABA & NBA resume is easily top 15 all time.

[SouBeachTalents]

He shouldn't be judged only on his NBA resume. To do that would be an injustice. His ABA & NBA resume is easily top 15 all time.

That was a tough break for him to play all those prime years in the ABA, but it wouldn't be fair to include his ABA numbers and pretend he was doing that against NBA level competition on a nightly basis. He averaged 29, 12, 5 in the ABA, numbers he never came that close to matching while in the NBA. I'm sure if Jordan, Wilt, or Shaq were in the ABA for 5 seasons, they could inflate their stats noticeably as well.

[bizil]

That was a tough break for him to play all those prime years in the ABA, but it wouldn't be fair to include his ABA numbers and pretend he was doing that against NBA level competition on a nightly basis. He averaged 29, 12, 5 in the ABA, numbers he never came that close to matching while in the NBA. I'm sure if Jordan, Wilt, or Shaq were in the ABA for 5 seasons, they could inflate their stats noticeably as well.

The only numbers that are inflated are the rebounding numbers. For much of Doc's NBA run, he played on deep teams full of offensive stars. Once guys like Free, Mcginnis, and Collins filtered out, he then got Moses Malone and Andrew Toney. So Doc never really had to get those 29 points a night in the NBA with that kind of offensive firepower. And sure the ABA played a quicker pace. But there was no doubt that Doc was an epic alpha dog and great rebounder in the NBA!

And that's why I always make the distinction between NBA GOAT and professional basketball GOAT. Even NBA wise, Doc is in the top 15 in my opinion. One thing that is a major factor in a GOAT list is your peak value as well as your impact on the game. Doc's impact on the game is EASILY top 10 of all time.

[BoutPractice]

You mean inflate their stats like George Gervin and Moses Malone, who improved their stats in the NBA compared to the ABA?

Or Rick Barry, who averaged the exact same line in 1967 playing in the NBA and in 1969 playing in the ABA?

Sure, players like Artis Gilmore saw their stats regress, but he still averaged numbers like 24 and 13 in the NBA.

Julius Erving's statistical regression has little to do with the ABA VS the NBA, but is instead due to a combination of physical factors and him playing for a stacked team.

[SouBeachTalents]

You mean inflate their stats like George Gervin and Moses Malone, who improved their stats in the NBA compared to the ABA?

Or Rick Barry, who averaged the exact same line in 1967 playing in the NBA and in 1969 playing in the ABA?

Sure, players like Artis Gilmore saw their stats regress, but he still averaged numbers like 24 and 13 in the NBA.

Julius Erving's statistical regression has little to do with the ABA VS the NBA, but is instead due to a combination of physical factors and him playing for a stacked team.

Malone is a terrible example, he played his first two years of pro ball in the ABA, one of which he missed half the season.

As for your Barry example, even though he went from putting up a Kobe-esque 29 shots per game in the NBA in '67 to just 22 in the ABA in '69, his scoring average only dropped off 1.5 ppg. But I'm sure it was just a coincidence that his field goal percentage ballooned from 45% to 51% after changing leagues

[EricForman]

He paved the way for so many greats, but he's not in the top 10 list himself. It's insane if you think about it, dude was just a monster back in the day :eek:


Not that insane if you actually look at career accomplishments using a combination of statistical analysis PLUS looking at all the non-stats stuff -- how dominate was the player in his prime? did he push his team to another level? did he take over when it mattered?

There's almost no case for Doc to be ranked above Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Kobe, and Oscar (or even LeBron for that matter).

This is not a diss at Doc, he's an all time great, but we can't just arbitrarily move a player up a ranking of career achievements just because of something like "he was cool as hell and his style was influential". If that's the case, AI should get a big bump on any list simply because he started the hip hop era of hoops.

[BoutPractice]

Malone is a terrible example, he played his first two years of pro ball in the ABA, one of which he missed half the season.

As for your Barry example, even though he went from putting up a Kobe-esque 29 shots per game in the NBA in '67 to just 22 in the ABA in '69, his scoring average only dropped off 1.5 ppg. But I'm sure it was just a coincidence his field goal percentage ballooned from 45% to 51% after changing leagues

Malone is not that poor an example because of the particular shape of his statistical production early in his career. It's all over the place, which furthers my point: it would be dishonest to attribute all changes to a "league effect". My basic observation here is that some ABA players saw their stats regress, others saw their stats improve (of course you didn't address Gervin which was the more compelling example of the list)... which makes it likely that the variation in production was in large part (not 100%, but in large part) the same kind of variation in production you see today, rather than due to a "weak league" effect.

Your broader argument here is quite easy to counteract. Using the Barry example... From 2011 to 2012, LeBron's shooting percentage improved from 53% to 56%. Surely he must have switched to a weaker league. Kobe Bryant's scoring went from 27 ppg to 35 ppg from 2005 to 2006 => weaker league. I'm too lazy to look up better examples but you get the point, just look at say most improved players. A player's statistical production varies quite a bit from year to year, and doesn't always follow an obvious pattern. There are many factors such as age, injuries, but also team strength, motivation, and contract years...

[SouBeachTalents]

Malone is not that poor an example because of the particular shape of his statistical production early in his career. It's all over the place, which furthers my point: it would be dishonest to attribute all changes to a "league effect". My basic observation here is that some ABA players saw their stats regress, others saw their stats improve (of course you didn't address Gervin which was the more compelling example of the list)... which makes it likely that the variation in production was in large part (not 100%, but in large part) the same kind of variation in production you see today, rather than due to a "weak league" effect.

Your broader argument here is quite easy to counteract. Using the Barry example... From 2011 to 2012, LeBron's shooting percentage improved from 53% to 56%. Surely he must have switched to a weaker league. Kobe Bryant's scoring went from 27 ppg to 35 ppg from 2005 to 2006 => weaker league. I'm too lazy to look up better examples but you get the point, just look at say most improved players. A player's statistical production varies quite a bit from year to year, and doesn't always follow an obvious pattern. There are many factors such as age, injuries, but also team strength, motivation, and contract years...

But LeBron & Kobe didn't switch leagues, so we can attribute any change in performance due to their own personal development or team situation. And it really isn't that big a surprise Kobe's ppg went up that much considering he attempted 7 more shots per game from '05 to '06. All I know is, Barry went to the ABA and went on to have his 3 best seasons FG% wise, including the only two times he shot 50% in his career.

I haven't even mentioned how players like Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel, and Connie Hawkins ALL saw their numbers clearly decrease after joining the NBA

[MiseryCityTexas]

Doctor J was still a beast in the late 70s during the nba/aba merger, and would have probably won the nba championship in 77 if the 76ers would have played better team ball instead of selfish playground streetball.

[BoutPractice]

But LeBron & Kobe didn't switch leagues, so we can attribute any change in performance due to their own personal development or team situation.
But there is a logical fallacy in going from this observation to "player A switched leagues, therefore we can attribute all statistical changes to the switch".

On the contrary, that stats often change by a lot from one year to the other in the absence of a switch only supports my hypothesis. Nothing in this observation supports the competing hypothesis.

[OnFire]

I was born1982, and I'm not making any comments about Dr. J or his era since I wasn't alive/was extremely young back then, nor have I watched hundreds of hours of games of his and his competition to have a deep understanding of him and his game.

dang bro you make us have more impressive resumes to post on here than ESPN has for their "reporters".

[MiseryCityTexas]

SouBeachTalents=Greatest Insidehoops username of all time.

[kshutts1]

He paved the way for so many greats, but he's not in the top 10 list himself. It's insane if you think about it, dude was just a monster back in the day :eek:
Not gonna read the whole thread, cuz frankly he's not in the top 10... but the bolded is a definitely a logic-fail that I hear often. Paving the way for something does not automatically make you the best. Should be a precursor to the HOF, but not a top 10 list.

[Psileas]

On people talking about Erving's body and ball control, here's 34 y.o Doc, dominating the 1984 ASG. Some of the moves he puts up are crazy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSKsidazyYc

[LAZERUSS]

For many years, Doc was in the top 10 NBA GOAT. Before Magic, Bird, and MJ built their resumes at their respective positions, Doc was the GOAT SF. And right there with Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Big O, and West in the top 6-7 NBA GOAT. But as time went on, guys like Magic, Bird, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, and Lebron built up their resumes and lowered Doc, Big O, and West down.

But here's the thing with Doc. If u say the top 10 GOAT in PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY (NBA and ABA), I think Doc is STILL in the top 10-11. If u look at Doc's TOTAL RESUME, I think he has the most impressive resume of all time for a SF. Plus Doc was the bridge between the ABA and NBA merger AS WELL AS being the living legend Stern built his original marketing schemes around. Bird, Magic, and later MJ were the stars building their legacies. Peak value wise, Bron and Bird are the only SF's FOR SURE I would take over Doc as it is. And longevity wise, Dr. J was more durable than Bird as well. My top 11 GOAT counting NBA and ABA include: (my first five are set in stone, after that the list could be arranged in many ways)

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Russell
Kobe
Dr. J
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Bron

With the impact the ABA has had on the NBA and ABA teams being absorbed into the NBA, I think that should carry a lot of weight. When I think of Dr. J, I think a top 10 GOAT player of all time PERIOD! Sure for a strictly NBA list, he won't make a top 10. He would be in that top 15 range.

This.

BTW, those that claim that Moses was a "stats-padder" had better also acknowledge that he just ABUSED Kareem in their 40 career H2H games. He may have occasionally "padded" his stats, but he was also just wreaking havoc on a near-prime Kareem.

Moses "the Kareem Killer" Malone.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Absolutely love Dr J!
It's a shame he wasted some of his best years in the ABA and that's probably why he doesn't get the credit he deserves.

[Dr.J4ever]

Absolutely love Dr J!
It's a shame he wasted some of his best years in the ABA and that's probably why he doesn't get the credit he deserves.

Yes, sometimes it seems like a shame when you have to explain to people Doc's legacy, and the complications of his ABA career and how it translates to today's NBA.

If you look deeply at the impact the ABA had on the NBA, it was enormous. Many old ABA hands will tell you that today's game is very similar to how the ABA teams used to play. Today's game doesn't resemble at all the NBA of the 70s, but teams spreading the court offensively with Dr. J driving from the top of the key with shooters around the perimeter was something that resembled those ABA years.

The NBA today had morphed into a larger ABA. Here's a little bit of Wiki's take on the ABA/NBA:

3-point field goal

The three-point field goal was used in the ABA; the NBA originally disparaged it, but eventually adopted it.[75]

Angelo Drossos, owner of the San Antonio Spurs: "When the leagues merged, the NBA moguls didn't want the 3-point shot. Red Auerbach hated it and said the Celtics would never go along with it. He had everybody up in arms against the play. Of course, a few years later Red drafted Larry Bird and suddenly he was all for it. And suddenly one of the bigger attractions at the All-Star Game is the 3-point shootout."[76]
Slam Dunk Contest

The ABA originated the idea of the slam dunk contest at the 1976 ABA All Star Game; the NBA subsequently adopted it.[77][78][79] The slam dunk contest has ever since been a major part of the NBA's All Star Weekend (with the exception of 1998 and 1999).[80][81]
Pressing and trapping defenses

Pressing and trapping defenses, not used in the slower-tempo NBA, were common in the ABA, and after the merger began to play a larger role in the NBA.[82]

Billy Cunningham, Philadelphia 76ers star: "When the Knicks were pressing and shooting 3-pointers and all of that under Rick Pitino, people acted as if that was something new. Hey, half the teams in the ABA played like that."[83]

Hubie Brown, former head coach of the Kentucky Colonels, Atlanta Hawks, New York Knicks and Memphis Grizzlies: "We (the ABA) were ahead of the NBA in so many different ways. We had the 3-point play. The NBA said it was a gimmick; now it's one of the most exciting parts of the pro game . . . . About everything we did in the ABA they do now in the NBA except they didn't take our red, white and blue ball."[82]
Faster pace of play

The ABA had a far faster pace than the NBA, and this carried over into the NBA after the merger; today's NBA game is largely derived from the ABA.[84][85] Longtime Denver Nuggets head coach and ABA alum Doug Moe, who also coached the Philadelphia 76ers, has commented, "The NBA now plays our (the ABA's) kind of basketball."[86]
Drafting of underclassmen

Prior to the ABA, the NBA did not allow college underclassmen to enter the league. In 1969 the ABA's Denver Rockets signed Spencer Haywood, a sophomore star at the University of Detroit who had played on the 1968 United States Olympic basketball team. The NCAA sued, but Haywood and the ABA prevailed. Julius Erving and George Gervin also joined the ABA's Virginia Squires as underclassmen, as did Jim Chones going from Marquette University to the New York Nets, George McGinnis from Indiana University to the Indiana Pacers and Ralph Simpson from Michigan State to the Denver Rockets. Moses Malone joined the ABA's Utah Stars straight out of high school.[87] Eventually after the merger the NBA followed suit and the drafting of college underclassmen became common in that league[88] and high school players were also selected in subsequent NBA drafts.[89]
Legacy

Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame member Julius Erving: "In my mind, the NBA has just become a bigger version of the ABA. They play the style of game that we did. They sell their stars like we did. The only difference is that they have more resources and can do it on a much grander scale than we in the ABA ever could."[85]

Denver Nuggets, San Antonio Spurs and Philadelphia 76ers head coach Doug Moe: "One of the biggest disappointments in my life was going into the NBA after the merger. The NBA was a rinky-dink league - listen, I'm very serious about this. The league was run like garbage. There was no camaraderie; a lot of the NBA guys were aloof and thought they were too good to practice or play hard. The NBA All-Star Games were nothing - guys didn't even want to play in them and the fans could [sic] care less about the games. It wasn't until the 1980s, when David Stern became commissioner, that the NBA figured out what the hell they were doing, and what they did was a lot of stuff we had in the ABA - from the 3-point shot to All-Star weekend to the show biz stuff. Now the NBA is like the old ABA. Guys play hard, they show their enthusiasm and there is a closeness in the league. Hell, the ABA might have lost the battle, but we won the war. The NBA now plays our kind of basketball."[86]

Sportswriter Bob Ryan: "When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vescey wrote that the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were among the top five of all pro basketball teams, I thought they had no objectivity and that they were too close to the teams they were writing about to really understand pro basketball. Then came the merger, and Denver and San Antonio won division titles. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right."[90]

[Nowitness]

Third option on a contender, not top 30.

[LAZERUSS]

Third option on a contender, not top 30.

:facepalm

[Nowitness]

:facepalm

Truth has been spoken. The 'Doctor' was nothing more than a broken man most of his career. Moses carried him to a title, Julius was an average/sub-par shooter, defender, rebounder and team mate. He could dunk, but he isn't top 30. I'd take David Thompson over him in their prime.

[LAZERUSS]

Truth has been spoken. The 'Doctor' was nothing more than a broken man most of his career. Moses carried him to a title, Julius was an average/sub-par shooter, defender, rebounder and team mate. He could dunk, but he isn't top 30. I'd take David Thompson over him in their prime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAqpkjFPbVY

That's like saying that all Shaq could do was dunk.

[Dr.J4ever]

Here's a little bit of the history of ABA/NBA exhibitions which were "very intense" due to the "bad blood" between the two leagues. This resulted in players actually being thrown out. Here's a snippet of what took place.

Excerpts are from "Remember the ABA" website:

During the first few years of the rivalry, most of the interleague games were played in ABA arenas. The NBA simply did not want to showcase (and legitimize) the ABA in front of NBA fans. On the other hand, ABA cities were happy to host well-known NBA teams. The games attracted extra fans, made money, and painted the ABA as "major league." Results from the first few years were not highly publicized by either league. Again, the NBA did not want to promote the fact that its teams were competing against ABA teams. And the ABA was red-faced because its teams lost most of the early games.

However, in the later years of the rivalry, the tide began to turn. Buoyed by younger, better talent and (in many cases) the home court advantage, ABA teams began winning most of the games. Over the last three seasons of the rivalry, the ABA steadily pulled ahead: 15-10 (in 1973), 16-7 (in 1974), and 31-17 (in 1975). The ABA won the overall interleague rivalry, 79 games to 76.

ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were always intense, due to the bad blood between the leagues. Ultra-competitive superstars like Rick Barry (Nets and Warriors), Dave Cowens (Celtics), and Charlie Scott (Squires, Suns and Celtics) were thrown out of interleague games with multiple technical fouls (see details below). Coaches like Larry Brown (Cougars and Nuggets) and Tommy Heinsohn (Celtics) often ended up listening to interleague games in the locker room, after being ejected.

Occasionally, the interleague games highlighted some bizarre situations. In the fall of 1972, budding ABA superstar Julius "Dr. J" Erving decided to switch leagues. He left his ABA team, the Virginia Squires, and reported to the training camp of an NBA team, the Atlanta Hawks. The Hawks actually used Erving in two exhibition games against ABA opponents: the Kentucky Colonels and the Carolina Cougars (see details below). After those two games, the courts ruled that Erving had to honor his prior contract with the Squires, and Erving returned to the ABA.

[ThePhantomCreep]

His NBA resume isn't even close to top 10, it's barely top 25

That's actually really impressive considering he came into the league at 26. Replace his ABA years with NBA ones and deflate his numbers a bit and you're still talking 28,000 points, 9,500 rebounds, 1,900 steals and 1,900 blocks over the course of 16 season--huge longevity.

He's top 15 regardless. His ABA years are hardly meaningless and he was the GOAT in that league.

[Dr.J4ever]

Here's a little bit of the history of ABA/NBA exhibitions which were "very intense" due to the "bad blood" between the two leagues. This resulted in players actually being thrown out. Here's a snippet of what took place.

Excerpts are from "Remember the ABA" website:

During the first few years of the rivalry, most of the interleague games were played in ABA arenas. The NBA simply did not want to showcase (and legitimize) the ABA in front of NBA fans. On the other hand, ABA cities were happy to host well-known NBA teams. The games attracted extra fans, made money, and painted the ABA as "major league." Results from the first few years were not highly publicized by either league. Again, the NBA did not want to promote the fact that its teams were competing against ABA teams. And the ABA was red-faced because its teams lost most of the early games.

However, in the later years of the rivalry, the tide began to turn. Buoyed by younger, better talent and (in many cases) the home court advantage, ABA teams began winning most of the games. Over the last three seasons of the rivalry, the ABA steadily pulled ahead: 15-10 (in 1973), 16-7 (in 1974), and 31-17 (in 1975). The ABA won the overall interleague rivalry, 79 games to 76.

ABA vs. NBA exhibition games were always intense, due to the bad blood between the leagues. Ultra-competitive superstars like Rick Barry (Nets and Warriors), Dave Cowens (Celtics), and Charlie Scott (Squires, Suns and Celtics) were thrown out of interleague games with multiple technical fouls (see details below). Coaches like Larry Brown (Cougars and Nuggets) and Tommy Heinsohn (Celtics) often ended up listening to interleague games in the locker room, after being ejected.

Occasionally, the interleague games highlighted some bizarre situations. In the fall of 1972, budding ABA superstar Julius "Dr. J" Erving decided to switch leagues. He left his ABA team, the Virginia Squires, and reported to the training camp of an NBA team, the Atlanta Hawks. The Hawks actually used Erving in two exhibition games against ABA opponents: the Kentucky Colonels and the Carolina Cougars (see details below). After those two games, the courts ruled that Erving had to honor his prior contract with the Squires, and Erving returned to the ABA.


Here's a footnote I found that may be interesting to some of you. How would Doc fare playing FOR AN NBA TEAM during his prime years? Here's a little bit of the answer:

Atlanta Hawks 112
Kentucky Colonels 99
Julius Erving 28 points, 18 rebounds

Atlanta Hawks 106
Carolina 99
Julius Erving 32 points

Doc played just 2 games for the Hawks in the Fall of 1972. :bowdown:

[Stringer Bell]

I started liking basketball due to Dr. J. Great player, great impact on the sport, but top 10?

Tough to put him there with so many other great players.