So, according to Lebron #23 should be retired by the league. But #6 and #32 are okay?

[CavaliersFTW]

In Lebron's opinion #23 should be retired because of Michael Jordan...

But not #6... the number of Doctor J and Bill Russell!?

Not #32... the number of Magic Johnson?

On thing that has always bothered me about Lebron is he is not a good student of the history of the game, his mount rushmore comments, his opinion on jersey numbers being retired... I'm not a Kobe stan but he for example never makes comments like these because he knows the history of the game, he grew up watching film of players as far back as Baylor, West and Robertson. He knows the game didn't begin and end with Jordan. Lebron never got to look back further, which is okay except that his opinions tend end up being disrespectful to the players that played before that time. Guy needs to talk to some of the legends that played before MJ and learn what else has been accomplished by others in the game.

[kennethgriffin]

he was quoted saying bill russells rings are as impressive as jud buechlers

lebrons a ****ing moron

dont take anything he says seriously. hes good at playing basketball. his knowledge of history however lacks greatly

he has dr J in his top 3 LOL

[J Shuttlesworth]

Props to OP for not bringing Wilt into this discussion of elite players.

I don't know if any numbers should be retired but if there is one, its the GOAT #23. If we retire numbers of all the greats, we will run out of jersey #s

[kennethgriffin]

Props to OP for not bringing Wilt into this discussion of elite players.

I don't know if any numbers should be retired but if there is one, its the GOAT #23. If we retire numbers of all the greats, we will run out of jersey #s

jordan isnt even the best ever though

kareem and russell accomplished way more

wilt,shaq,oscar,baylor had way better peaks

jordan is by no means a guy like wayne gretzky where a guy drops more points on just assists than any other player ever had goals AND assists ( while also leading alltime in goals ) and claiming like 8 straight mvps LOL


jordan is arguably the best ever. but a lock? no

this is why #99 is retired league wide in the nhl and #23 is only retired by miami and chicago for MJ

[CavaliersFTW]

Props to OP for not bringing Wilt into this discussion of elite players.

I don't know if any numbers should be retired but if there is one, its the GOAT #23. If we retire numbers of all the greats, we will run out of jersey #s
I didn't bring him up because Lebron hasn't chosen to wear #13 yet. He's chosen to wear #6 and now it is reported he will wear #32... all after him saying he feels #23 should be off limits because of Jordan. #6 was Bill Russell's number and Russell was even more dominant and potentially responsible for winning than Michael Jordan. He's got just as much a case as Jordan as the "GOAT" depending on one's criteria. If Lebron knew the history of Bill Russell, or any other handful of top tier all-time players (including Wilt) that played before the MJ era, he'd likely not even have the type of opinions he's expressed over the years. He comes off as someone who simply does not know the games history. Knowing how he grew up, how would he have access to tapes and documentaries of the old legends he probably really just doesn't know any better. He should make an effort to learn now though, given how vocal he is about these things.

[Marchesk]

It may be more that Jordan is the gold standard Lebron is compared to rather than Russell or Magic.

[ArbitraryWater]

You guys just search for something to hate on right?

And lol at kenneth's stupidity... Shaq/Wilt/Oscar/Baylor=Top 4 Peaks ever... ban this clown.



LeBron is known to be a student of the game which I love and respect.

[inclinerator]

well isnt jo dan the goat?

[Marchesk]

LeBron is known to be a student of the game which I love and respect.

He's a student on how to play the game, not the history of the game, at least based on what he's said.

[9512]

I have been saying this many times on this forum and I will say it again.

Retiring jersey numbers is silly and a testament of stupid the idea of owning a number is for the Anglo Saxon culture of private property.

But as some one said above, if they keep retiring numbers they should consider adding a third digit on players' uniforms.

[CavaliersFTW]

You guys just search for something to hate on right?

And lol at kenneth's stupidity... Shaq/Wilt/Oscar/Baylor=Top 4 Peaks ever... ban this clown.



LeBron is known to be a student of the game which I love and respect.
He's an advanced student of how to play the game... but so far, a very poor student of the history of the game. He doesn't know what other players have accomplished. I remember watching him comment on Doctor J and he was asking some really silly questions pertaining to some of the moves the Doc did and the athleticism he had. You could tell Lebron had no clue about two other legends who were doing most of the moves the Doc did, Baylor and Hawkins, nor was Lebron aware of other super-athletic players that came before the doc like Gus Johnson. Lebron seemed genuinely surprised enough as it were just to learn that a guy pre-dating Jordan could display such incredible athleticism and moves. Lebron as a kid was likely just another fan who grew up watching Jordan era basketball, but was (and still is) not very fluent on what happend before Jordan.

[LBJFTW]

jordan isnt even the best ever though

kareem and russell accomplished way more

wilt,shaq,oscar,baylor had way better peaks

jordan is by no means a guy like wayne gretzky where a guy drops more points on just assists than any other player ever had goals AND assists ( while also leading alltime in goals ) and claiming like 8 straight mvps LOL


jordan is arguably the best ever. but a lock? no

this is why #99 is retired league wide in the nhl and #23 is only retired by miami and chicago for MJ

It's pretty bad when someone has to bring up Wayne Gretzky in a weak attempt to somehow diminish Jordan.

Jordan is GOAT and it is a lock.

[NumberSix]

You're taking an off the cuff comment he said one time was too seriously. You act as if his #23 comment is some deeply held sacred belief to him. It's just a thing he said in an interview once.

[CavaliersFTW]

You're taking an off the cuff comment he said one time was too seriously. You act as if his #23 comment is some deeply held sacred belief to him. It's just a thing he said in an interview once.
It's fresh on my mind because it was mentioned in the Cavs SL game Friday. As far as I know, that's still Lebron's opinion. So here I am, giving my opinion on his opinion. This is ISH, what do you expect?

[kennethgriffin]

It's pretty bad when someone has to bring up Wayne Gretzky in a weak attempt to somehow diminish Jordan.

Jordan is GOAT and it is a lock.

how and why

[J Shuttlesworth]

jordan isnt even the best ever though

kareem and russell accomplished way more

wilt,shaq,oscar,baylor had way better peaks

jordan is by no means a guy like wayne gretzky where a guy drops more points on just assists than any other player ever had goals AND assists ( while also leading alltime in goals ) and claiming like 8 straight mvps LOL


jordan is arguably the best ever. but a lock? no

this is why #99 is retired league wide in the nhl and #23 is only retired by miami and chicago for MJ
Jordan is basically the consensus GOAT. Very small percentage of fans think otherwise.

Although I have to give you credit for you not bringing Kobe into this discussion of all time greats given your stan-ism

[DMV2]

LeBron says a lot of dumb things.

So does Kobe, so does Shaq, so does Jordan, etc...

[kennethgriffin]

IMO there is no GOAT

only players of their generations. nobody can say a guy who never even played another guy or his competition is better than him

its actually impossible to know

all we know is

60s = russell
70s = kareem
80s = magic
90s = jordan
00s = kobe
10s = lebron

[CavaliersFTW]

Jordan is basically the consensus GOAT. Very small percentage of fans think otherwise.

Although I have to give you credit for you not bringing Kobe into this discussion of all time greats given your stan-ism
Very small percentage of fans know the history of the game. consensus = / = reality

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Agreed. Hes an MJ stan

[kennethgriffin]

Jordan is basically the consensus GOAT. Very small percentage of fans think otherwise.

Although I have to give you credit for you not bringing Kobe into this discussion of all time greats given your stan-ism


well in terms of majority public opinion ofcourse jordan is the goat

but majority opinion isnt a fact. if it can even be slightly argued against it isnt an absolute

and kobe is one of the greatest of all time. he was the player of the 2000's

he had his era and dominated it

tnt, dime, S.I, sportingnews = all gave kobe the player of the decade awards

[D-Rose]

In Lebron's opinion #23 should be retired because of Michael Jordan...

But not #6... the number of Doctor J and Bill Russell!?

Not #32... the number of Magic Johnson?

On thing that has always bothered me about Lebron is he is not a good student of the history of the game, his mount rushmore comments, his opinion on jersey numbers being retired... I'm not a Kobe stan but he for example never makes comments like these because he knows the history of the game, he grew up watching film of players as far back as Baylor, West and Robertson. He knows the game didn't begin and end with Jordan. Lebron never got to look back further, which is okay except that his opinions tend end up being disrespectful to the players that played before that time. Guy needs to talk to some of the legends that played before MJ and learn what else has been accomplished by others in the game.


32 has not been confirmed by anyone of credibility to be LeBron's new number. Seriously, it was just one random radio dude who sent out a tweet. Stop.

[red1]

jordan isnt even the best ever though

kareem and russell accomplished way more

wilt,shaq,oscar,baylor had way better peaks

jordan is by no means a guy like wayne gretzky where a guy drops more points on just assists than any other player ever had goals AND assists ( while also leading alltime in goals ) and claiming like 8 straight mvps LOL


jordan is arguably the best ever. but a lock? no

this is why #99 is retired league wide in the nhl and #23 is only retired by miami and chicago for MJ
you are an idiot if you think gretzky is on another level compared to jordan

[CavaliersFTW]

32 has not been confirmed by anyone of credibility to be LeBron's new number. Seriously, it was just one random radio dude who sent out a tweet. Stop.
Stop what, do you understand the point of the thread? That detail doesn't effect this topic.

[Qwyjibo]

Why would any number be retired? I just think that's silly altogether. Something like Jackie Robinson in baseball kinda makes sense but just for being really really ridiculously good at the sport? No.

[DonDadda59]

You would think people would've learned by now to take what Bron says with a grain of salt. :confusedshrug:

There's dudes in Miami still waiting on those 8 championships he promised.

[kennethgriffin]

you are an idiot if you think gretzky is on another level compared to jordan

in terms of how much more someone dominated their sport.. yes gretzky is on a level heads and shoulders above jordan

gretzky is like a successful/clutch version of wilt chamberlain

holds all the records
had all the success
got all the awards


the equivelant of gretzky dropping 200 points in a season is like someone in the nba averaging 50ppg... and gretzky did it 4 times


Hart memorial = MVP
conn smyth = playoff MVP
Ted Lindsay = Most outstanding player
art ross = top point scorer
lou kaplan = ROTY



Awards
1978-79 WHA Lou Kaplan Trophy
1979-80 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1980-81 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1980-81 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1981-82 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1981-82 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1981-82 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1982-83 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1982-83 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1982-83 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1983-84 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1983-84 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1983-84 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1984-85 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1984-85 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
1984-85 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1984-85 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1985-86 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1985-86 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1986-87 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1986-87 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1986-87 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1987-88 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
1988-89 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1989-90 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1990-91 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1990-91 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1991-92 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1993-94 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1993-94 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1998-99 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy


Championships
(Minimum 1 playoff game)
1984 Edmonton Oilers (NHL)
1985 Edmonton Oilers (NHL)
1987 Edmonton Oilers (NHL)
1988 Edmonton Oilers (NHL)

All-Star Games
1980 NHL
1981 NHL
1982 NHL
1983 NHL
1984 NHL
1985 NHL
1986 NHL
1988 NHL
1989 NHL
1990 NHL
1991 NHL
1992 NHL
1993 NHL
1994 NHL
1996 NHL
1997 NHL
1998 NHL
1999 NHL




Goals
1978-79 WHA 46 (3)
1979-80 NHL 51 (5)
1980-81 NHL 55 (4)
1981-82 NHL 92 (1)
1982-83 NHL 71 (1)
1983-84 NHL 87 (1)
1984-85 NHL 73 (1)
1985-86 NHL 52 (6)
1986-87 NHL 62 (1)
1988-89 NHL 54 (4)
Career NHL 894 (1)

Assists
1978-79 WHA 64 (5)
1979-80 NHL 86 (1)
1980-81 NHL 109 (1)
1981-82 NHL 120 (1)
1982-83 NHL 125 (1)
1983-84 NHL 118 (1)
1984-85 NHL 135 (1)
1985-86 NHL 163 (1)
1986-87 NHL 121 (1)
1987-88 NHL 109 (1)
1988-89 NHL 114 (1)
1989-90 NHL 102 (1)
1990-91 NHL 122 (1)
1991-92 NHL 90 (1)
1993-94 NHL 92 (1)
1994-95 NHL 37 (9)
1995-96 NHL 79 (5)
1996-97 NHL 72 (1)
1997-98 NHL 67 (1)
1998-99 NHL 53 (6)
Career NHL 1963 (1)

Points
1978-79 WHA 110 (3)
1979-80 NHL 137 (1)
1980-81 NHL 164 (1)
1981-82 NHL 212 (1)
1982-83 NHL 196 (1)
1983-84 NHL 205 (1)
1984-85 NHL 208 (1)
1985-86 NHL 215 (1)
1986-87 NHL 183 (1)
1987-88 NHL 149 (2)
1988-89 NHL 168 (2)
1989-90 NHL 142 (1)
1990-91 NHL 163 (1)
1991-92 NHL 121 (3)
1993-94 NHL 130 (1)
1996-97 NHL 97 (4)
1997-98 NHL 90 (3)
Career NHL 2857 (1)

Regular season records (40)[edit]
Most goals: 894 in 1,487 games
Most goals, including playoffs: 1,016 in 1,487 regular season and 208 playoff games
Most goals, one season: 92 in 1981–82, 80-game schedule
Most goals, one season, including playoffs: 100 in 1983–84, 87 goals in 74 regular season games and 13 goals in 19 playoff games
Most goals, 50 games from start of season: 61 in 1981–82 (October 7, 1981 to January 22, 1982, 80-game schedule) and 1983–84 (October 5, 1983 to January 25, 1984), 80-game schedule
Most goals, one period: 4 (Tied with 10 other players) February 18, 1981
Most assists: 1,963
Most assists, including playoffs: 2,223
Most assists, one season: 163 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule
Most assists, one season, including playoffs: 174 in 1985–86, 163 assists in 80 regular season games and 11 assists in 10 playoff games
Most assists, one game: 7 (tied with Billy "The Kid" Taylor) on three occasions—February 15, 1980; December 11, 1985; February 14, 1986
Most assists, one road game: 7 (tied with Billy "The Kid" Taylor) December 11, 1985
Most points: 2,857 in 1,487 games (894 goals, 1,963 assists)
Most points, including playoffs: 3,239 in 1,487 regular season and 208 playoff games. (1016 goals, 2223 assists)
Most points, one season: 215 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule (52 goals, 163 assists)
Most points, one season, including playoffs: 255 in 1984–85; 208 points in 80 regular season games and 47 points in 18 playoff games
Most overtime assists, career: 15
Most goals by a center, career: 894
Most goals by a center, one season: 92 in 1981–82, 80-game schedule
Most assists by a center, career: 1,963
Most assists by a center, one season: 163 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule
Most points by a center, career: 2,857
Most points by a center, one season: 215 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule
Most assists in one game by a player in his first season: 7 on February 15, 1980
Highest goals-per-game average, one season: 1.18 in 1983–84, 87 goals in 74 games
Highest assists-per-game average, career (300 min.): 1.321 -- 1,963 assists in 1,487 games
Highest assists-per-game average, one season: 2.04 in 1985–86, 163 assists in 80 games
Highest points-per-game average, one season (among players with 50-or-more points): 2.77 in 1983–84, 205 points in 74 games
Most 40-or-more goal seasons: 12 in 20 seasons
Most consecutive 40-or-more goal seasons: 12 from 1979–80 to 1990–91
Most 50-or-more goal seasons: 9 (tied with Mike Bossy)
Most 60-or-more goal seasons: 5 (tied with Mike Bossy)
Most consecutive 60-or-more goals seasons: 4 from 1981–82 to 1984–85
Most 100-or-more point seasons: 15
Most consecutive 100-or-more point seasons: 13 from 1979–80 to 1991–92
Most three-or-more goal games, career: 50 -- 37 three-goal (hat trick) games; nine four-goal games; four five-goal games
Most three goal games, one season: 10 (done twice) in 1981–82 and 1983–84
Longest consecutive assist scoring streak: 23 games in 1990–91, 48 assists
Longest consecutive point-scoring streak: 51 Games in 1983–84 (October 5, 1983 to January 28, 1984, 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points)
Longest consecutive point-scoring streak from start of season: 51 in 1983–84; 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points (October 5, 1983 to January 28, 1984)
Playoff records (15)[edit]
Most playoff goals, career: 122
Most playoff assists, career: 260
Most assists, one playoff year: 31 in 1988 (19 games)
Most assists in one series (other than final): 14 (tied with Rick Middleton) in 1985 Conference Finals (six games vs. Chicago)
Most assists in final series: 10 in 1988 (four games, plus suspended game vs. Boston)
Most assists, one playoff game: 6 (tied with Mikko Leinonen) on April 9, 1987
Most assists, one playoff period: 3 -- Three assists by one player in one period of a playoff game has been recorded on 70 occasions, five of them by Gretzky
Most points, career: 382 -- 122 goals and 260 assists
Most points, one playoff year: 47 in 1985 (17 goals and 30 assists in 18 games)
Most points in final series: 13 in 1988 three goals and 10 assists (four games plus suspended game vs. Boston, three goals)
Most points, one playoff period: 4 (tied with nine other players)
Most short-handed goals, one playoff year: 3 (tied with five other players) 1983
Most short-handed goals, one playoff game: 2 (tied with eight other players) April 6, 1983
Most game-winning goals in playoffs, career: 24 (tied with Brett Hull)
Most three-or-more goals games (hat trick): 10 (eight three-goal games, two four-goal games)
All-Star records (6)[edit]
Most All-Star game goals, career: 13 (in 18 games played)
Most All-Star game goals, one game: 4 (tied with three players) 1983 Campbell Conference
Most All-Star game goals, one period: 4 1983 Campbell Conference, third period
Most All-Star game assists, career: 12 (tied with four others)
Most All-Star game points, career: 25 (13 goals, 12 assists in 18 games)
Most All-Star game points, one period: 4 (tied with Mike Gartner and Adam Oates) 1983 Campbell Conference, third period (four goals)
Records update[edit]
Since Wayne Gretzky’s retirement, two of his records have fallen and he has gained one record, leaving him with a new total of 60 official records.

Gretzky’s record of 15 regular season overtime assists has now been passed by three players. They are Nicklas Lidstrom (16), Adam Oates (17), and Mark Messier (18).
Joe Sakic (16), Mark Messier (14), and Ray Bourque (13) have passed Gretzky’s record (12) for most All-Star game assists.
Wayne Gretzky finished his career with a 1.921 points per game average. Only Mario Lemieux, then retired, had a better points per game average at that time. Lemieux since came out of retirement in 2000 and played until the 2005–06 NHL season. Lemieux's points per game average dropped to 1.883 before retiring once again midway through the 2005–06 season. This gives the record to Gretzky.
Unofficial records[edit]
Along with his numerous official records, Wayne Gretzky also has many "unofficial" records. These other records are not recognized by the NHL Official Guide and Record Book.




i'm sorry. but gretzky sh*ts on jordan

[J Shuttlesworth]

Very small percentage of fans know the history of the game. consensus = / = reality
I'd bet most NBA players in the league would consider Jordan the GOAt... maybe a few Kareem, maybe a few Russel, but it's likely overwhelmingly Jordan. LeBron obviously fits into the category of people who consider Jordan GOAT, so I don't know why it seems so outlandish that he thinks 23 is the number that should be retired.

If we say "Russel and magic" should be retired too then why not Kareem? or Bird? or Wilt, or Duncan, or Kobe, or etc.. Then every number in existence would be retired. I don't think any numbers should be retired, but if i had to pick one, I'd pick 23.

And of course a historian of the game will know more about basketball history than LeBron. Sure some historians consider Russell or Kareem GOAT, but there are plenty of historians of the game who consider Jordan GOAT. I don't see why you think it's such an outlandish opinion that LeBron thinks of Jordan as GOAT.

It just contributes to the fact that LeBron can get crucified for anything and everything he says for no reason at all.

[red1]

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]in terms of how much more someone dominated their sport.. yes gretzky is on a level heads and shoulders above jordan

gretzky is like a successful/clutch version of wilt chamberlain

holds all the records
had all the success
got all the awards


the equivelant of gretzky dropping 200 points in a season is like someone in the nba averaging 50ppg... and gretzky did it 4 times


Hart memorial = MVP
conn smyth = playoff MVP
Ted Lindsay = Most outstanding player
art ross = top point scorer
lou kaplan = ROTY



Awards
1978-79 WHA Lou Kaplan Trophy
1979-80 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1980-81 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1980-81 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1981-82 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1981-82 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1981-82 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1982-83 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1982-83 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1982-83 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1983-84 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1983-84 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1983-84 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1984-85 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1984-85 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
1984-85 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1984-85 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1985-86 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1985-86 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1986-87 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1986-87 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1986-87 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1987-88 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
1988-89 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1989-90 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1990-91 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1990-91 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1991-92 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1993-94 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1993-94 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1998-99 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy


Championships
(Minimum 1 playoff game)
1984 Edmonton Oilers (NHL)
1985 Edmonton Oilers (NHL)
1987 Edmonton Oilers (NHL)
1988 Edmonton Oilers (NHL)

All-Star Games
1980 NHL
1981 NHL
1982 NHL
1983 NHL
1984 NHL
1985 NHL
1986 NHL
1988 NHL
1989 NHL
1990 NHL
1991 NHL
1992 NHL
1993 NHL
1994 NHL
1996 NHL
1997 NHL
1998 NHL
1999 NHL




Goals
1978-79 WHA 46 (3)
1979-80 NHL 51 (5)
1980-81 NHL 55 (4)
1981-82 NHL 92 (1)
1982-83 NHL 71 (1)
1983-84 NHL 87 (1)
1984-85 NHL 73 (1)
1985-86 NHL 52 (6)
1986-87 NHL 62 (1)
1988-89 NHL 54 (4)
Career NHL 894 (1)

Assists
1978-79 WHA 64 (5)
1979-80 NHL 86 (1)
1980-81 NHL 109 (1)
1981-82 NHL 120 (1)
1982-83 NHL 125 (1)
1983-84 NHL 118 (1)
1984-85 NHL 135 (1)
1985-86 NHL 163 (1)
1986-87 NHL 121 (1)
1987-88 NHL 109 (1)
1988-89 NHL 114 (1)
1989-90 NHL 102 (1)
1990-91 NHL 122 (1)
1991-92 NHL 90 (1)
1993-94 NHL 92 (1)
1994-95 NHL 37 (9)
1995-96 NHL 79 (5)
1996-97 NHL 72 (1)
1997-98 NHL 67 (1)
1998-99 NHL 53 (6)
Career NHL 1963 (1)

Points
1978-79 WHA 110 (3)
1979-80 NHL 137 (1)
1980-81 NHL 164 (1)
1981-82 NHL 212 (1)
1982-83 NHL 196 (1)
1983-84 NHL 205 (1)
1984-85 NHL 208 (1)
1985-86 NHL 215 (1)
1986-87 NHL 183 (1)
1987-88 NHL 149 (2)
1988-89 NHL 168 (2)
1989-90 NHL 142 (1)
1990-91 NHL 163 (1)
1991-92 NHL 121 (3)
1993-94 NHL 130 (1)
1996-97 NHL 97 (4)
1997-98 NHL 90 (3)
Career NHL 2857 (1)

Regular season records (40)[edit]
Most goals: 894 in 1,487 games
Most goals, including playoffs: 1,016 in 1,487 regular season and 208 playoff games
Most goals, one season: 92 in 1981

[SpanishACB]

I didn't bring him up because Lebron hasn't chosen to wear #13 yet. He's chosen to wear #6 and now it is reported he will wear #32... all after him saying he feels #23 should be off limits because of Jordan. #6 was Bill Russell's number and Russell was even more dominant and potentially responsible for winning than Michael Jordan. He's got just as much a case as Jordan as the "GOAT" depending on one's criteria. If Lebron knew the history of Bill Russell, or any other handful of top tier all-time players (including Wilt) that played before the MJ era, he'd likely not even have the type of opinions he's expressed over the years. He comes off as someone who simply does not know the games history. Knowing how he grew up, how would he have access to tapes and documentaries of the old legends he probably really just doesn't know any better. He should make an effort to learn now though, given how vocal he is about these things.

to me that's an issue but it's not the biggest one

i respect he has that opinion, I can even accept some of the views supporting ti, but why choose to say it publically? It's as if you're taking shots for the sake of it. There's a million things to say, you're Lebron James.

things like this makes me wonder how can he play so good when his he seems so limited, in the brains department.

edit: because there's no way he's getting paid to suck up to Jordan is there

[kennethgriffin]

and let me guess, kobe is comparable? jordan and gretzky are on the same exact tier in terms of dominating their sport
uummm no

kobe isnt close to gretzky.. no one is

would be like barry bonds ( without steroid scandels ) and having won a bunch of titles

its not fair for anyone in team sports to compare to gretzky


look at the all time scoring list for hockey


Rank Player PTS
1.Wayne Gretzky 2857
2.Mark Messier 1887
3.Gordie Howe 1850
4.Ron Francis 1798
5.Marcel Dionne 1771
6.Jaromir Jagr 1755
7.Steve Yzerman 1755
8.Mario Lemieux 1723
9.Joe Sakic 1641
10.Phil Esposito 1590



now take a look at the all time goal scoring list

Rank Player G
1.Wayne Gretzky 894
2.Gordie Howe 801
3.Brett Hull 741
4.Marcel Dionne 731
5.Phil Esposito 717
6.Mike Gartner 708
7.Jaromir Jagr 705
8.Mark Messier 694
9.Steve Yzerman 692
10.Mario Lemieux 690


even if gretzky ( who is the all time goal scoring leader ) never scored a goal........ he'd still have

1963 points

76 more points than #2 all time points leader Mark Messier






gretzky is the god of athletes

there is no one that compares

[jstern]

He has Oscar Robertson on his Mt. Rushmore, and I believe he also has Dr. J in his top ten.

He just happens to see Jordan in a different light than those. I mean, you can't criticizing Lebron for having a single player's number retired, a player who is considered by the vast majority the GOAT time, rather than picking 2, 3, 5 other players.

I mean, are we now going to criticize Lebron for this? Would it be as special if we now just started retiring league wise the number of numerous players from each era?

I'm having trouble explaining my thoughts, I'm so hungry, but basically, this is not something to worry about. It's just more random Lebron criticism.

[plowking]

OP actually makes a thread about this, yet has never called Wilt out on all the stupid shit he's said?

[D-Rose]

Stop what, do you understand the point of the thread? That detail doesn't effect this topic.
Stop spreading misinformation and pushing a topic that's not even true!

[cltcfn2924]

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]in terms of how much more someone dominated their sport.. yes gretzky is on a level heads and shoulders above jordan

gretzky is like a successful/clutch version of wilt chamberlain

holds all the records
had all the success
got all the awards


the equivelant of gretzky dropping 200 points in a season is like someone in the nba averaging 50ppg... and gretzky did it 4 times


Hart memorial = MVP
conn smyth = playoff MVP
Ted Lindsay = Most outstanding player
art ross = top point scorer
lou kaplan = ROTY



Awards
1978-79 WHA Lou Kaplan Trophy
1979-80 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1980-81 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1980-81 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1981-82 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1981-82 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1981-82 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1982-83 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1982-83 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1982-83 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1983-84 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1983-84 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1983-84 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1984-85 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1984-85 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
1984-85 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1984-85 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1985-86 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1985-86 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1986-87 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1986-87 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1986-87 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
1987-88 NHL Conn Smythe Trophy
1988-89 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
1989-90 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1990-91 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1990-91 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1991-92 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1993-94 NHL Art Ross Trophy
1993-94 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1998-99 NHL Lady Byng Memorial Trophy


Championships
(Minimum 1 playoff game)
1984 Edmonton Oilers (NHL)
1985 Edmonton Oilers (NHL)
1987 Edmonton Oilers (NHL)
1988 Edmonton Oilers (NHL)

All-Star Games
1980 NHL
1981 NHL
1982 NHL
1983 NHL
1984 NHL
1985 NHL
1986 NHL
1988 NHL
1989 NHL
1990 NHL
1991 NHL
1992 NHL
1993 NHL
1994 NHL
1996 NHL
1997 NHL
1998 NHL
1999 NHL




Goals
1978-79 WHA 46 (3)
1979-80 NHL 51 (5)
1980-81 NHL 55 (4)
1981-82 NHL 92 (1)
1982-83 NHL 71 (1)
1983-84 NHL 87 (1)
1984-85 NHL 73 (1)
1985-86 NHL 52 (6)
1986-87 NHL 62 (1)
1988-89 NHL 54 (4)
Career NHL 894 (1)

Assists
1978-79 WHA 64 (5)
1979-80 NHL 86 (1)
1980-81 NHL 109 (1)
1981-82 NHL 120 (1)
1982-83 NHL 125 (1)
1983-84 NHL 118 (1)
1984-85 NHL 135 (1)
1985-86 NHL 163 (1)
1986-87 NHL 121 (1)
1987-88 NHL 109 (1)
1988-89 NHL 114 (1)
1989-90 NHL 102 (1)
1990-91 NHL 122 (1)
1991-92 NHL 90 (1)
1993-94 NHL 92 (1)
1994-95 NHL 37 (9)
1995-96 NHL 79 (5)
1996-97 NHL 72 (1)
1997-98 NHL 67 (1)
1998-99 NHL 53 (6)
Career NHL 1963 (1)

Points
1978-79 WHA 110 (3)
1979-80 NHL 137 (1)
1980-81 NHL 164 (1)
1981-82 NHL 212 (1)
1982-83 NHL 196 (1)
1983-84 NHL 205 (1)
1984-85 NHL 208 (1)
1985-86 NHL 215 (1)
1986-87 NHL 183 (1)
1987-88 NHL 149 (2)
1988-89 NHL 168 (2)
1989-90 NHL 142 (1)
1990-91 NHL 163 (1)
1991-92 NHL 121 (3)
1993-94 NHL 130 (1)
1996-97 NHL 97 (4)
1997-98 NHL 90 (3)
Career NHL 2857 (1)

Regular season records (40)[edit]
Most goals: 894 in 1,487 games
Most goals, including playoffs: 1,016 in 1,487 regular season and 208 playoff games
Most goals, one season: 92 in 1981

[pauk]

Because not only was MJ the greatest ever, but also by far the most prominent ever, arguably the greatest athlete and sports figure ever, the most meaningful one, he took the sport to its absolute highest limit... you can go to the most random place on earth and ask any random person if they heard about michael jordan and the answer will most likely be not only yes but they will also say he was the greatest basketball player ever... even my senile bosnian grandma knows of that name, not kidding...

Dr j or russell or magic were nowhere near that prominent.... if one player deserves to have his number or whatever retired, it would be him.... and after that then maaaaybe you can start arguing about someone else....

[cltcfn2924]

Because not only was MJ the greatest ever, but also by far the most prominent ever, arguably the greatest athlete and sports figure ever, the most meaningful one, he took the sport to its absolute highest limit... you can go to the most random place on earth and ask any random person if they heard about michael jordan and the answer will most likely be not only yes but they will also say he was the greatest basketball player ever... even my senile bosnian grandma knows of that name, not kidding...

Dr j or russell or magic were nowhere near that prominent.... if one player deserves to have his number or whatever retired, it would be him.... and after that then maaaaybe you can start arguing about someone else....


Oh, so you have to be a certain age now to respect Russell et al? Get lost.

[DStebb716]

This thread is pretty stupid. Other sports have just one number retired (99 in hockey and 42 in baseball). If you're going to retire one number in basketball it'd be 23, and that's what LeBron is getting at.

Mario Lemieux's number isn't retired in hockey (even though just about nobody wears it, but that's because 66 is a rare number).

[CavaliersFTW]

This thread is pretty stupid. Other sports have just one number retired (99 in hockey and 42 in baseball). If you're going to retire one number in basketball it'd be 23, and that's what LeBron is getting at.

Mario Lemieux's number isn't retired in hockey (even though just about nobody wears it, but that's because 66 is a rare number).
Jordan is no greater than Bill Russell, or Wilt Chamberlain, or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. There is no "if you had to choose just one number to retire..." He's got no clear-cut case to be above any of those guys.

[pauk]

Oh, so you have to be a certain age now to respect Russell et al? Get lost.

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity".
What Russell did, what Dr J did, what Magic did might have echoed somewhat in USA, but not enough to echo around like the legend that is MJ, especially not at that magnitude, around the world, around the universe... actually the more time that passes, the more time we spend watching basketball players today it just keeps echoing around more and more as you realize even more how great he was....


Those guys have the accolades, sure and were pioneers themselves... dont get me wrong, but they have not managed to shape that kindof vastly embossed path of a Michael Jordan.... all coaches, all players recognize him to mythological, godlike status, past or present.... ask Russell, Dr J & Magic themselves about Jordan and they will tell you very swiftly why he is the greatest ever and why they to think his jersey should be retired aswell etc... lots of quotes out there....

[Cocaine80s]

Does OP even post about the current NBA anymore? :oldlol:

NO one gives a **** about Wilt bruh

[kennethgriffin]

FYI, the name of this forum is Inside Hoops. Shees.

yea but its a discussion on what it takes to get your jersey retired league wide


so i'm comparing jordan to someone who DOES have his # retired league wide

DUH LOL

and just because its a basketball forum doesnt mean i have to side with a basketball player out of pure bias like other people

[CavaliersFTW]

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity".
What Russell did, what Dr J did, what Magic did might have echoed somewhat in USA, but not enough to echo around like the legend that is MJ, especially not at that magnitude... actually the more time that passes, the more time we spend watching basketball players today it just keeps echoing around more and more as you realize even more how great he was....
Russell accomplished more in basketball than Jordan did, when there were less accomplishments to be had.

Jordan as a player stood on the shoulders of giants, cut it with the cheesy Gladiator quote. His 'greatness' continues to exist to people today because he was just born at the right time, when cameras and the league started documenting games. If he played in the 60's he'd be an Elgin Baylor/Jerry West hybrid who you wouldn't give two shits about right now.

[DStebb716]

Jordan is no greater than Bill Russell, or Wilt Chamberlain, or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. There is no "if you had to choose just one number to retire..." He's got no clear-cut case to be above any of those guys.

Nostalgia is dumb. So is hanging on too tightly to something just because you were alive when it happened.

[pauk]

Russell accomplished more in basketball than Jordan did, when there were less accomplishments to be had.

Jordan as a player stood on the shoulders of giants, cut it with the cheesy Gladiator quote. His 'greatness' continues to exist to people today because he was just born at the right time, when cameras and the league started documenting games. If he played in the 60's he'd be an Elgin Baylor/Jerry West hybrid who you wouldn't give two shits about right now.

60s vs modern era.... Its a very touchy subject, look i respect basketball history, i love it and i know you respect it more than probably anybody i know here on ISH, you have great passion for old school ball, love your videos on youtube..... but please CavaliersFTW, i beg you to at least microscopically consider that basketball, NBA itself & basketball players just might have evolved, maaaaaybe........ seriously man, you can just watch 10 seconds of a 50s-60s & modern era game to realise there is a big difference, you would be lying to yourself if you didnt.... firstly in talent (physique/athleticism) and then in skill (ballhandling, shooting stroke/technique).... in reality, much more has changed since then... It doesnt mean i say/we say we should diminish what happened back then or something, no way, but that we should value it for its time.... it was just... a different time...

As far as MJ goes.... lets take a good look at prime/peak Michael Jordan shall we, on both ends.... could you just imagine what he would do in the 60s? I want you to be very honest? Please? Lets say that Michael Jordan with his modern era skills/talent (with that i mean say prime MJ got transported into the 60s) where even the worst team in the NBA averaged more possessions a game than even the team that averaged the most possessions a game in the modern era... just that would give you a very simple logical & factual hint that MJ would highly likely at least put up numbers that would maybe make even Wilts/Oscars numbers look miniscule, unfortunately... not to mention, his moves, training, basketball IQ, intangibles and so on and so on he would present for the 60s basketball world would be far beyond its time, it would be actually shocking to see for everybody else, he would be remembered as the most innovative player in NBA/Basketball history (or any sports history?)...... so even then, in different context Michael Jordan would/might still end up to be perhaps just as prominent (if not more?).... who knows right?