Players who spent their entire career as the best player on their team

[Myth]

What players were the best player for their team their entire career? (if current player, 10+ seasons)

Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
LeBron James (so far)
Russell? (arguable late in his career, D and rebounding may have kept him at #1)
Chamberlain? (arguable, West became leading scorer but Chamberlain barely ever missed and his rebounding and D may have made him better overall still)

Any others?

[dubeta]

Damn this should be the top 5 GOAT list, eliminates sidekicks and others carried throughout their careers, shows the players who didnt have stacked teams.

[Real14]

Melo, and nobody else honestly. LeQuit wasn't tha best player on his team every single season.

[Inferno]

Melo, and nobody else honestly.

http://i.imgur.com/owQa4.png

[plowking]

Tim Duncan is arguable too.
Karl Malone too outside of the first and last season in his career.

[Real14]

http://i.imgur.com/owQa4.png
Iverson was 1b.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan

[Real14]

Tim Duncan is arguable too.
Karl Malone too outside of the first and last season in his career.
Tim duncan iz not.

[outbreak]

Melo, and nobody else honestly. LeQuit wasn't tha best player on his team every single season.
the other players we are mentioning have won things

[SouBeachTalents]

Bob Pettit

[Real14]

the other players we are mentioning have won things
Keep staying salty my friend.

[Myth]

Tim Duncan is arguable too.
Karl Malone too outside of the first and last season in his career.

Arguable, but I think Parker was better a couple seasons. There are others like Malone who were most of their careers but a season or 2 exceptions (Magic for example). Heck, even Jordan was close to not being the best during his Wizard days.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Reggie Lewis was the best Celtic in Bird's last couple of years.

[GODbe]

LeBron

[Im so nba'd out]

Not trying to be funny but you can make a strong claim that dwade was better than lebron in 2010 and that iverson was better than melo.

[ShackEelOKneel]

Reggie Lewis was the best Celtic in Bird's last couple of years.

He crept up on him, but I disagree that he surpassed him.

[thefatmiral]

hakeem. jordan.dirk.Reggie.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Duncan is a close one...I'd probably go with D-Rob in '98 but it's close...

[Myth]

hakeem. jordan.dirk.Reggie.

I'm thinking you either didn't understand the thread or didn't think those answers out too well.

Reggie Miller was surpassed by multiple teammates late in his career (Artest, Jermaine, Stephen Jackson).

Hakeem was awful at the end of his career (averaged 7/6 and came off the bench a bunch with the Raptors and wasn't close to the best player the last few years in Houston as well).

Dirk as a rookie averaged just over 8 points (40.5%) and 3 rebounds.

[Chizdog]

Kobe stans avoiding this thread like the plague.

[BlazerRed]

Can definitely put a case in for Duncan.

[ZabuzaZaloog]

hakeem. jordan.dirk.Reggie.
Surprised it took so long to mention Dirk and was Hakeem the best in Toronto?

[wally_world]

How is Duncan not?

Mikan? Seems like a good candidate, I might be totally wrong tho

[Myth]

Surprised it took so long to mention Dirk and was Hakeem the best in Toronto?

See my post above on those 2. Both were clearly not the best every season of their careers.

[Yankstar]

I'm thinking you either didn't understand the thread or didn't think those answers out too well.

Reggie Miller was surpassed by multiple teammates late in his career (Artest, Jermaine, Stephen Jackson).

Hakeem was awful at the end of his career (averaged 7/6 and came off the bench a bunch with the Raptors and wasn't close to the best player the last few years in Houston as well).

Dirk as a rookie averaged just over 8 points (40.5%) and 3 rebounds.

Kyrie Irving (not counting coming season)

[wally_world]

Current players

CP3
KD
Melo
Anthony Davis

[Myth]

^ It is obviously easier if you have only been in the league 2-3 years. That is why in the OP I suggested only current players that have been in the league 10+ years.

[russwest0]

Wade was the best Heat player in 2010.

I agree with Wally World's list for current players.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

yeah wade was the best in 2010 not 2011 though

[Kingwillball]

Wade was the best Heat player in 2010.

I agree with Wally World's list for current players.


No he wasn't.. Lebron finished top 3 in MVP race tool.. Lebron has aways been best player on team even as a rookie.

[Noyze]

Was gonna say Dirk, but Michael Finley had him the first 2 or 3 years.

[SexSymbol]

What players were the best player for their team their entire career? (if current player, 10+ seasons)

Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
LeBron James (so far)
Russell? (arguable late in his career, D and rebounding may have kept him at #1)
Chamberlain? (arguable, West became leading scorer but Chamberlain barely ever missed and his rebounding and D may have made him better overall still)

Any others?

Wade was universally known as a better player in 2011 then LeBron
Russell is probably true, same for MJ and Bird
West was much better than Wilt

[pauk]

Wade was universally known as a better player in 2011 then LeBron
Russell is probably true, same for MJ and Bird
West was much better than Wilt

lol, not even close, except for that Mavs series.....

If you think Wade was better because of one series then we might have to first of all scratch out Larry Bird from this category, considering Maxwell was even the FMVP in Birds first championship run.....

Not how it works...

The guys who with actually zero argument truly were the best players in their teams every season/entire career (10+ seasons):

Michael Jordan
Lebron James
Larry Bird

MJ & Lebron were also the guys who i think held that "best player in the NBA" title the longest aswell.....

[SexSymbol]

lol, not even close, except for that Mavs series.....

If you think Wade was better because of one series then we might have to first of all scratch out Larry Bird from this category, considering Maxwell was even the FMVP in Birds first championship run.....

Not how it works...

The guys who with actually zero argument truly were the best players in their teams every season/entire career (10+ seasons):

Michael Jordan
Lebron James
Larry Bird

MJ & Lebron were also the guys who i think held that "best player in the NBA" title the longest aswell.....
You're rewritting history.
With Kobe's injuries and Lebron's lack of heart most people had Wade being the best player in 2011.

[pauk]

You're rewritting history.
With Kobe's injuries and Lebron's lack of heart most people had Wade being the best player in 2011.

Did Bird have lack of heart in his first championship run aswell then? Where he had 2 back to back 8 point games, performing to a point where even Lebrons Mavs series looked fine, performing to the point where even Maxwell managed to win FMVP....

Not how it works.... sorry Lebron hater (wtf? whats your agenda here anyways? let me guess a butthurt Kobetard or something?)

[Milbuck]

Antawn Jamison

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Wade was better than Lebron in 11. Lebron wasnt the best player on the Cavs his rookie year. Gimme Big Z and arguably Booz

Bird wasnt the best in 89 and arguably 91

Was MJ the best on the Wiz? Prolly not sure tho. Pip was arguably better in 95 specially with missed games and 86 he was injured all year

KD and CP3 were the best player on every team they was on so far.

[Dresta]

lol, not even close, except for that Mavs series.....

If you think Wade was better because of one series then we might have to first of all scratch out Larry Bird from this category, considering Maxwell was even the FMVP in Birds first championship run.....

Not how it works...

The guys who with actually zero argument truly were the best players in their teams every season/entire career (10+ seasons):

Michael Jordan
Lebron James
Larry Bird

MJ & Lebron were also the guys who i think held that "best player in the NBA" title the longest aswell.....
Except it wasn't JUST the finals (and the finals count for a lot btw): overall, Wade performed better in the playoffs than Lebron did that year. He was the better player because Lebron was mentally weak, and cost Miami the championship. He also put up better numbers:

Wade: 25/7/4/2/1.3 57TS%, 26.3PER
Bron: 24/8/6/2/1.2 56TS%, 23.7PER

Your Bird/Maxwell comparison is idiotic drivel.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Jordan
Bird
LeBron (so far)

Wilt has a great case, even in his last year(s) I wouldn't put West above him.

Cousy was the best player in Russell's first year(s), then at the end Hondo was creeping up on him but I wouldn't call him better/more impactful.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Did Bird have lack of heart in his first championship run aswell then? Where he had 2 back to back 8 point games, performing to a point where even Lebrons Mavs series looked fine, performing to the point where even Maxwell managed to win FMVP....

Not how it works.... sorry Lebron hater (wtf? whats your agenda here anyways? let me guess a butthurt Kobetard or something?)

Bird also averaged 12.5 rebounds and 8.5 assists during those two games, how about mentioning that? And it was 1-1, then C's actually won one of those games in a blowout so obviously Larry wasn't out there padding his stats like you know who :lol
Not to mention, he was the 3rd best scorer in the series, far and away the best playmaker, almost outrebounded prime Moses and played great D, being more agressive than LeBron ever could in a more physical series than Bron ever played... Having a 27/13/5 elimination game6, really clutch down the line, to put the Rockets away. He should've been named FMVP tbh.

And this was Larry Bird leading a previously shitty team to a championship (yea actually WON), in only his 2nd year... Not a definitely proven superstar in his prime, joining two other proven/established top10 players in the league. Shit, you can say that 2010 Bosh was playing at a higher level than 1979 Maxwell or 1980 Parish, let alone D-Wade, a top3/5 player in the league who had a beastly Finals in 2011, certainly much better than any of Bird's teammates.
Oh and Larry had just outplayed the league's MVP while leading the Celtics from a 3-1 deficit, in the "real" Finals.

"to a point when even Lebrons Mavs series looked fine" :oldlol:
I'd put sophomore Bird's Finals performance over prime LeBron's Finals performance... Don't even get me talking about 2007 LeBron's performance :lol which would make much more sense to compare. GTFOH with your bullshit.

[ArbitraryWater]

Havlicek was the best player in 1968 and 1969, probably 1967 as well..
West was the best player in 1969, and Bird wasn't the best the year he was injured and some latter ones...

So no for Wilt/Russell/Bird, and soon LeBron, well, at the end of his career last 1-2 years, he will probably be passed by a team mate of his as well.


Tim Duncan is arguable too.
Karl Malone too outside of the first and last season in his career.

Tim Duncan is not arguable..


See my post above on those 2. Both were clearly not the best every season of their careers.

I don't think people understand this thread lol


Wade was universally known as a better player in 2011 then LeBron
Russell is probably true, same for MJ and Bird
West was much better than Wilt


No he wasn't :roll:

LeBron outplayed him the whole season up to the finals.. some fine revisionist history here :applause:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Wade was better than Lebron in 11. Lebron wasnt the best player on the Cavs his rookie year. Gimme Big Z and arguably Booz

Bird wasnt the best in 89 and arguably 91

Was MJ the best on the Wiz? Prolly not sure tho. Pip was arguably better in 95 specially with missed games and 86 he was injured all year

KD and CP3 were the best player on every team they was on so far.

So you're gonna count injured years when a certainly player didn't even play? :rolleyes:

No, LeBron was the best in his rookie year... You can definitely say that Wade had a better post-season in 2011 but that's about it.

In 1991, Bird led the Celtics in scoring and steals, even in minutes in his condition, also the 2nd best rebounder and 2nd best playmaker. They finished with a 56-26 record, while they were 46-14 for the games he played. He was 9th in MVP voting while the 2nd "best" was McHale at 19th.
In 1992, Larry "only" played 45 games but he was still the Celtics' best player while he was out there, with Reggie Lewis pretty close though.

Yes, MJ was the best on the Wiz... Crazy, right?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Havlicek was the best player in 1968 and 1969, probably 1967 as well..
West was the best player in 1969, and Bird wasn't the best the year he was injured and some latter ones...

So no for Wilt/Russell/Bird, and soon LeBron, well, at the end of his career last 1-2 years, he will probably be passed by a team mate of his as well.

Stop it... You don't know what you're talking about, child.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Whats MJs argument over Pippen in 95? He missed 95% of the RS and his defense was @zz. Pippen was better and better in the playoffs

Whats Lebrons argument over Big Z and Boozer his rookie year? Or Wade in 11?

How was Bird the best in 89? And whats his argument over Mchale in 91?

[T_L_P]

Duncan was not the clear best Spur from 08-14, but he was pretty much tied with Parker imo. He lead the team in PER and WS for the majority of those years (iirc), but he brings a lot more to the table that cannot be recorded statistically than Parker (his defense, mainly). I'd say Duncan was the best every year but 98, 11 and 12.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Whats MJs argument over Pippen in 95? He missed 95% of the RS and his defense was @zz. Pippen was better and better in the playoffs

Whats Lebrons argument over Big Z and Boozer his rookie year? Or Wade in 11?

How was Bird the best in 89? And whats his argument over Mchale in 91?


So let's count years after a certain player retired also :rolleyes: I guess Rory Sparrow was a better player than Magic in 1992 because Johnson had to retire due to HIV and Rory was still playing for the Lakers :oldlol:

Pretty clear Bron was the best... Would you really take Z and Boozer over him, even in his rookie year? :lol

He was out injured :facepalm How the **** was he gonna be/show he was the best? :rolleyes: They still dropped by 15W and didn't do shit in the post-season when he was out and that's with the "addition" of Reggie Lewis, and when Larry came back as a shell they still improved by 10W, with the team falling apart... How about that?
Argument over McHale in 1991? :wtf: #9 in MVP voting while McHale was 19th, played much more minutes than McHale who was coming off the bench during that time, scored more, rebounded more, assisted much more... Celtics were 46-14 when Bird played and 10-12 when he was out (48-20 when McHale played). Not even McHale would've picked himself as a better player :facepalm

[Myth]

Whats MJs argument over Pippen in 95? He missed 95% of the RS and his defense was @zz. Pippen was better and better in the playoffs

Whats Lebrons argument over Big Z and Boozer his rookie year? Or Wade in 11?

How was Bird the best in 89? And whats his argument over Mchale in 91?

The first 80% of the 95 season isn't part of Jordan's career. Once he re-joined the team, he was the best player on it.

Bird in 89 played 6 games. When he played, he was still the best on the team. It is moot comparing players who were playing to somebody who wasn't. In 91, Bird averaged more points, rebounds, and assists than McHale. McHale really doesn't have much case over Bird at all IMO.

I believe LeBron in his rookie year was unquestionably the leader of his team, including a good amount more of points and assists. Boozer has LeBron beat on easily rebounding but was even worse than LeBron on D, and Big Z only has the D argument and a little edge in rebounding (which was pathetic rebounding for a 7'3" center). In 2011, LeBron was 3rd in MVP (Wade 7th). LeBron outperformed Wade all season with the exception of the Finals. One series does not make Wade better.

[tmacattack33]

Iverson was 1b.

Nah, during those years in Denver, Carmelo underperformed and that team was Iverson's.

[jayfan]

Zeke







.

[Carbine]

Their were years lately where Duncan wasn't the best player on the Spurs.

'11 and '12

[HomieWeMajor]

KD(so far)

[T_L_P]

LeBron outperformed Wade all season with the exception of the Finals. One series does not make Wade better.

I agree with this, but Wade definitely outperformed LeBron in the Celtics series, imho.

[StephHamann]

Dirk

[NumberSix]

Duncan was not the clear best Spur from 08-14, but he was pretty much tied with Parker imo. He lead the team in PER and WS for the majority of those years (iirc), but he brings a lot more to the table that cannot be recorded statistically than Parker (his defense, mainly). I'd say Duncan was the best every year but 98, 11 and 12.
Parker was CLEARLY better than Duncan in the 2012-2013 season. There was even talk of him being league MVP until he got injured.

[Dresta]

The first 80% of the 95 season isn't part of Jordan's career. Once he re-joined the team, he was the best player on it.

Bird in 89 played 6 games. When he played, he was still the best on the team. It is moot comparing players who were playing to somebody who wasn't. In 91, Bird averaged more points, rebounds, and assists than McHale. McHale really doesn't have much case over Bird at all IMO.

I believe LeBron in his rookie year was unquestionably the leader of his team, including a good amount more of points and assists. Boozer has LeBron beat on easily rebounding but was even worse than LeBron on D, and Big Z only has the D argument and a little edge in rebounding (which was pathetic rebounding for a 7'3" center). In 2011, LeBron was 3rd in MVP (Wade 7th). LeBron outperformed Wade all season with the exception of the Finals. One series does not make Wade better.
Why do idiots keep saying this? Is this Bron playing better?:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011_ECS.html#MIA-BOS

Wade's overall playoff numbers were better and Lebron cost Miami the title. Not hard to see who had the better season really is it?

[NumberSix]

Why do idiots keep saying this? Is this Bron playing better?:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011_ECS.html#MIA-BOS

Wade's overall playoff numbers were better and Lebron cost Miami the title. Not hard to see who had the better season really is it?
Soooooo...... Westbrook had a better season that Durant, right?

[T_L_P]

Parker was CLEARLY better than Duncan in the 2012-2013 season. There was even talk of him being league MVP until he got injured.

Don't pick and choose the timeline. The entire regular season and Playoffs considered, Parker was not CLEARLY better than Duncan. They are neck-and-neck; Parker had slightly more MVP votes, Duncan got All-NBA first team, and he had the best stats on the team, and he was the best Spur in the Finals.

[bluechox2]

melo for obvious reasons

[NumberSix]

Don't pick and choose the timeline. The entire regular season and Playoffs considered, Parker was not CLEARLY better than Duncan. They are neck-and-neck; Parker had slightly more MVP votes, Duncan got All-NBA first team, and he had the best stats on the team, and he was the best Spur in the Finals.
Wasn't Danny Green the best Spur?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron wasn't the Heat's best player in 2011 AND it isn't just because of one series.

Wade not only had comparable stats, but outplayed LeBron in the postseason (higher PER and winshares per 48 minutes).

Other than that, the list looks good.

[T_L_P]

Wasn't Danny Green the best Spur?

Well, let's see: Duncan scored 5 more PPG, grabbed 8 more RPG, had 1 more assist. and had .3 less steals and blocks. He had the higher game score and ORtg/DRtg difference, though he did shoot the ball worse...the difference is he didn't shoot 10% in the last two games of the series.

[G.O.A.T]

Honestly the only guy who I think qualifies 100% is Jordan.

Mikan until his comeback in '55, so you could count that too.

I'd say Russell too, but you have to get into some real subjective reasoning. From '58-'66 it's for sure, but otherwise...You could go against Russell in '57, but i won't, and in '67, '68 and '69, if he wasn't the coach I could hear an argument.

Bird too comes to mind, but with the injuries late I'm not sure I'd take him, damn close though.

Duncan I could see someone saying, but I feel like Parker was the guy for a few years and I'd take Robinson over Duncan during his rookie year.

The only other person I can think of is Isiah Thomas (Dumars was better the last year, but that's splitting hairs)

The big thing is you need to be drafted to a bad team and retire before your skills diminish.

[LBJFTW]

What players were the best player for their team their entire career? (if current player, 10+ seasons)

Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
LeBron James (so far)
Russell? (arguable late in his career, D and rebounding may have kept him at #1)
Chamberlain? (arguable, West became leading scorer but Chamberlain barely ever missed and his rebounding and D may have made him better overall still)

Any others?

MJ is the only one in the history of the game. Every other case is not a 100% lock, no matter how compelling of an argument.

[Young X]

CP3

[Roundball_Rock]

Was Jordan better than Pippen in 95'? Pippen was top 10 in scoring, top 20 in rebounding (as a SF), leading the league in steals and dishing out 6 assists that year before MJ returned, at which point his stats took a dip. He basically matched Karl Malone in all-NBA voting in 95' if you want an idea of how good he was. I think they were very close in 95' and Pippen would have a case based on overall contributions. Jordan was supplying more points, but Pippen was the defensive anchor (95' Pippen is the only perimeter player to ever lead the league in defensive rating), top rebounder, top blocker, league leader in steals and the team's leader in assists. Pippen had 19/10/6/3 in the ECSF.

MJ publicly stated that Pippen was the best player in the league that year. That was not merely pumping up a teammate; MJ privately reaffirmed that view with David Halberstom a few years later. 95' arguably was peak Pippen and it was the worst version of Chicago MJ outside of his first two seasons.

[Dave3]

Barely anyone argued Wade over LeBron back in 2011. How is it that 3 years later we have all these people coming out and saying "oh yeah, of course Wade was better back then.." as if it was something people agreed on back then, when it was barely even brought up.

Even when trying to argue best player in the NBA, people brought up Dwight and Dirk up way more than they brought up Wade, and somehow 3 years later it's some kind of accepted fact that Wade was better back then?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

MJ is not 100% either...You COULD argue for stackhouse in '03 but I'd probably take MJ

[Young X]

If MJ wasn't better than Pippen in '95 why do you idiots act like he wasn't affected by his time off/wasn't his normal self?

[Roundball_Rock]

If MJ wasn't better than Pippen in '95 why do you idiots act like he wasn't affected by his time off/wasn't his normal self?

He was affected. I just don't think they were going to win the title that year even if MJ played the full season due to their problems at PF/C. They lost Grant, Cartwright, Scott Williams and did not replace them. 95' also arguably was Pippen's peak season. The guy was right outside the top 15 in rebounding as a SF along with leading the league in steals, being top 10 in scoring, and leading the team in blocks, putting up 6 assists along with being the anchor of the #2 defense. People overlook 95' Pippen because the team was a 5th-6th place team but he was as good and perhaps even better than he was in 94'.


Barely anyone argued Wade over LeBron back in 2011. How is it that 3 years later we have all these people coming out and saying "oh yeah, of course Wade was better back then.." as if it was something people agreed on back then, when it was barely even brought up.

Even when trying to argue best player in the NBA, people brought up Dwight and Dirk up way more than they brought up Wade, and somehow 3 years later it's some kind of accepted fact that Wade was better back then?

Great point. At the time LeBron was the consensus best player with Howard being the guy most people had second. Look at the MVP voting and you'll see LeBron clearly was considered the best player on the Heat. It is revisionist history to argue that Wade was considered equal or superior to LeBron. Wade was considered a top 5 player but not as good as LeBron; similar to 01' and 02' Kobe vis-a-vis Shaq.

[Kingwillball]

Wade was universally known as a better player in 2011 then LeBron
Russell is probably true, same for MJ and Bird
West was much better than Wilt


LOL at U making Sh!t up.. Wade was never better than LEbron he played better in finals against Mavs when Lebron didn't show up. Other than that no question in 4 years who is/was better and the gap has only widened the last couple years.

[Dave3]

LeBron wasn't the Heat's best player in 2011 AND it isn't just because of one series.

Wade not only had comparable stats, but outplayed LeBron in the postseason (higher PER and winshares per 48 minutes).

Other than that, the list looks good.
Dude, I was looking up old threads from back then just to see what people were saying back then and I ran into this from September of 2011...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6344935&postcount=20

You had LeBron first and Wade 4th in the entire league. It's not only revisionist history, you're revising your own words...

[Rose'sACL]

Not trying to be funny but you can make a strong claim that dwade was better than lebron in 2010 and that iverson was better than melo.
No, wade was not the best player on heat. Lebron was but not by as much as in his other years.

[Dresta]

Dude, I was looking up "2011 best player insidehoops" on google just to see what people were saying back then and I ran into this from September of 2011...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6344935&postcount=20

You had LeBron first and Wade 4th in the entire league. It's not only revisionist history, you're revising your own words...
Yeah, because ISHs fandom and its troop of Lebron worshipers are a reliable source when it comes to this. So no one was arguing for Wade being a better player than Lebron in 2011?

Here's an article written after the Finals proclaiming Wade the better player (and why):

[QUOTE]

[Dave3]

Yeah, because ISHs fandom and its troop of Lebron worshipers are a reliable source when it comes to this. So no one was arguing for Wade being a better player than Lebron in 2011?

Here's an article written after the Finals proclaiming Wade the better player (and why):



http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/2010-11-NBA-season-Rants-Raves-LeBron-James-Miami-Heat-Dallas-Mavericks-best-worst-062811

Since when are guys who haven't won and have only choked or gone AWOL on the biggest stage crowned the best player in the league? By every metric Wade outperformed Lebron in the playoffs that year - Lebron's PER decreased by nearly 4 full points, while Wade's went up from his regular season average.

Regular season warrior and finals choker who got outplayed by Jason Terry> the best overall playoff performer that year (with Dirk) appaz?

Bronstans :hammerhead:
My point isn't just what Bron stans are saying vs. what haters were saying. It's overall opinion at that time. Also, I take most things said the day after anything with a grain of salt. The same way people overrate a player right after he wins a title, or the same way they underrate and pile up on him the day after he loses one. The point I was making though specifically with this post is the same guy that's saying "Wade was better in 2011", was saying "LeBron is better" in 2011, so it's inconsistent.

The majority of opinion back then was still that LeBron>Wade, even for the summer following the loss.

You can find articles for Wade, the same way I can find articles for LeBron.

ESPN's top 10 ranking:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7116977/nba-player-rankings-1

And even ISH's best yearly player by Gifted Mind.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102569

Neither of them even had Wade as the 2nd best player in the league, let alone the best player on Miami.

Secondly, calling LeBron a "regular season warrior who chokes in the playoffs" says more about you than it does about "Bron stans."

[Roundball_Rock]

The 2011 MVP voting speaks for itself:

Rose 1,182
Howard 643
LeBron 522
Kobe 428
Durant 190
Dirk 113
Wade 24
Manu 20
Amare 9
Griffin/Rondo 5

Rose won 113 of 121 first place votes. LeBron had 4, Howard 3, Kobe 1 and Wade 0. 96' Pippen (5th in MVP voting, not far behind 4th place Hakeem) was closer to MJ than 11' Wade was to LeBron.

Moreover, LeBron was first team all-NBA while Wade was on the second team. Kobe and Rose took the guard spots on the first team.

[comerb]

Not trying to be funny but you can make a strong claim that dwade was better than lebron in 2010 and that iverson was better than melo.

If by "strong" you meant "weak", then sure.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Dude, I was looking up old threads from back then just to see what people were saying back then and I ran into this from September of 2011...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6344935&postcount=20

You had LeBron first and Wade 4th in the entire league. It's not only revisionist history, you're revising your own words...



Hindsight is always 20/20. By all objective measures, Wade outperformed LeBron in the playoffs.

[ImKobe]

Lebron sure wasn't the best player on the Heat in the 2011 Playoffs and even in the regular season, it was close.

Wade: 25.6 PER .218 WS/48, Lebron 27.3 PER .244 WS/48

per 100 Poss in the RS

Wade 36/9/7/3/2 on 50% shooting

Lebron 36/10/10/2/1 on 51% shooting

Playoffs

Lebron 24/8/6/2/1 on 47%FG, 23.7 PER, .198 WS/48

Wade 25/7/4/2/1 on 49%FG, 26.1 PER, .216 WS/48

and we all know what happened in the Finals

Take Lebron off the list.

[MavsSuperFan]

Duncan
parker was better for a couple of seasons

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lebron sure wasn't the best player on the Heat in the 2011 Playoffs and even in the regular season, it was close.

Wade: 25.6 PER .218 WS/48, Lebron 27.3 PER .244 WS/48

per 100 Poss in the RS

Wade 36/9/7/3/2 on 50% shooting

Lebron 36/10/10/2/1 on 51% shooting

Playoffs

Lebron 24/8/6/2/1 on 47%FG, 26.1 PER, .216 WS/48

Wade 25/7/4/2/1 on 49%FG, 23.7 PER, .198 WS/48

and we all know what happened in the Finals

Take Lebron off the list.

Yup. The more years that pass, with the success the Heat had the following seasons, the more Bron's choke in 2011 hurts his so-called legacy.

[Jlamb47]

Lebron sure wasn't the best player on the Heat in the 2011 Playoffs and even in the regular season, it was close.

Wade: 25.6 PER .218 WS/48, Lebron 27.3 PER .244 WS/48

per 100 Poss in the RS

Wade 36/9/7/3/2 on 50% shooting

Lebron 36/10/10/2/1 on 51% shooting

Playoffs

Lebron 24/8/6/2/1 on 47%FG, 23.7 PER, .198 WS/48

Wade 25/7/4/2/1 on 49%FG, 26.1 PER, .216 WS/48

and we all know what happened in the Finals

Take Lebron off the list.

This

Wade was better then Lebron in 2011 and everyone knows this. Finals prove this one

[RoundMoundOfReb]

McHale over Bird for '91? (Yes I know Bird had some severe injury issues)

[Rose'sACL]

This

Wade was better then Lebron in 2011 and everyone knows this. Finals prove this one
Why would you take per 100 possession stats in case of wade who has had injury issues since a long time?

[ImKobe]

This

Wade was better then Lebron in 2011 and everyone knows this. Finals prove this one

Wade was amazing that year, which makes it even worse for Lebron :oldlol:

How do you not win a ring with your "2nd option" averaging those numbers in the POs.

[Roundball_Rock]

This

Wade was better then Lebron in 2011 and everyone knows this. Finals prove this one

Except MVP and all-NBA voters in 2011? Wade was the #3 guard and #2 player at his position; LeBron was the #1 forward. LeBron received 522 MVP votes to Wade's 24. Wade was on par with Manu in MVP voting.

Wade was a top 5 player in 2011; LeBron was the consensus best player. No one was arguing LeBron and Wade. If there was a player that some would have as the best player other than LeBron it was Howard that year. Wade was not even the best player at his position. LeBron haters are attempting to revise history. Wade's peak was 2009 when he was the third best player in the league.

[Myth]

McHale over Bird for '91? (Yes I know Bird had some severe injury issues)

I still believe Bird was better than McHale at that time.

[Trollsmasher]

lol at Wade being better than LeBron in 2011, dude had to be carried against the Bulls by LeBron only to fail in the Finals when Lebron let him to be the 1st option:lol

Wade stans dying slow and painful death:lol

[Rose'sACL]

Wade was amazing that year, which makes it even worse for Lebron :oldlol:

How do you not win a ring with your "2nd option" averaging those numbers in the POs.
Why did you post per 100 possession stats though?
If we are going by per 100 possesion stats then lebron's peak puts bird and magic's peak to shame.
Are you ready to admit that lebron is better than both magic and bird?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

It's debatable though...Extremely close to say the least...If you do what ImKobe did and post regular season/post season stats and PER and ws/48 it's easily McHale

[Warfan]

Except MVP and all-NBA voters in 2011? Wade was the #3 guard and #2 player at his position; LeBron was the #1 forward. LeBron received 522 MVP votes to Wade's 24. Wade was on par with Manu in MVP voting.

Wade was a top 5 player in 2011; LeBron was the consensus best player. Wade was not even the best player at his position. LeBron haters are attempting to revise history.

So you're just gonna look at MVP voting which have nothing to do with the most important games of the year. You know, the playoffs.

[Roundball_Rock]

So you're just gonna look at MVP voting which have nothing to do with the most important games of the year. You know, the playoffs.

LeBron in the playoffs: 23.7/8.4/5.9
Wade in the playoffs: 24.5/7.1/4.4

LeBron also was the superior defender. All Wade had over LeBron is 0.8 more points and 1% better shooting.

MVP and all-NBA voting reflects what people thought at the time. Wade was not even the best player at his position according to most people let alone the best player in the league. People are attempting to use one series to revise history. Wade himself recognized LeBron's superiority and took a backseat to LeBron after the 2011 season--not the other way around.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron in the playoffs: 23.7/8.4/5.9
Wade in the playoffs: 24.5/7.1/4.4

LeBron also was the superior defender. All Wade had over LeBron is 0.8 more points and 1% better shooting.

Wade also had more: blocks and less turnovers - and no, his defense was certainly on the level of Bron's. Both had a DRTG of 102 in the postseason.

Factor in that Wade performed better against comparable defenses, and at the very least, they're 1A / 1B.

I'd roll with Wade because of his play in the finals

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Wade in the ecf put up worse numbers than Bron in the finals...even the advanced #s (worse ortg, gamescore, better drtg)

[Rose'sACL]

the per 100 possision thing is so dumb. i am more than sure that no one would like me to post lebron's per 100 possession stats during his peaks compared to wade's and kobe's but they are posting it here when wade has been prone to injuries for most of his career.
Per 100 possession stats make sense when the player was not injury prone. there have been some incredible per 100 possession stats posted by injured/shitty players.

[Dave3]

Hindsight is always 20/20. By all objective measures, Wade outperformed LeBron in the playoffs.
What?? Both of your statements are considered after the events happened (ie. the 2011 season and playoffs). "Hindsight is 20/20" means that after something happened, someone had a clearer idea of what happened than before it happened. Right now both opinions are coming after it, so there is no hindsight factor. This is a case of you completely changing your mind on something that has had nothing change since. You went from ranking LeBron 1st and Wade 4th to ranking Wade above LeBron. That's not hindsight, it's a change in agenda.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wade in the ecf put up worse numbers than Bron in the finals...even the advanced #s (worse ortg, gamescore, better drtg)

Exactly. This whole thing is based, in the service of an agenda, on one series. One series does not make a player better when we have data from 100 or so games. Parker had a better Finals than Duncan in 2007. Does that overturn the fact that Duncan was the better player that year? Wade himself recognized LeBron as the better player after the 2011 season and took a backseat to LeBron as a result. It is telling that the opposite did not happen...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What?? Both of your statements are considered after the events happened (ie. the 2011 season and playoffs). "Hindsight is 20/20" means that after something happened, someone had a clearer idea of what happened than before it happened. Right now both opinions are coming after it, so there is no hindsight factor. This is a case of you completely changing your mind on something that has had nothing change since. You went from ranking LeBron 1st and Wade 4th to ranking Wade above LeBron. That's not hindsight, it's a change in agenda.

ONE month after the finals wasn't long enough for me to TRULY give an accurate opinion. I co-signed with 'fatal9' in that post without really delving into the metrics and intangibles. More or less, I was ranking the players heading into the 2012 season.

Fast forward to 2014, I realized just how much of a choke 2011 was (had Bron played anywhere up to his standards, the Heat would have 3-peated). Because of this, 2011 Wade, IMO, was the better player.

[ImKobe]

Why did you post per 100 possession stats though?
If we are going by per 100 possesion stats then lebron's peak puts bird and magic's peak to shame.
Are you ready to admit that lebron is better than both magic and bird?

Nah, the game was played differently back then and the comparisons wouldn't be valid. Wade & Lebron play on the same team and in the same system, should have just used 36 but since I noticed I put the wrong numbers half way, I was like **** it :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

Except MVP and all-NBA voters in 2011? Wade was the #3 guard and #2 player at his position; LeBron was the #1 forward. LeBron received 522 MVP votes to Wade's 24. Wade was on par with Manu in MVP voting.

Wade was a top 5 player in 2011; LeBron was the consensus best player. No one was arguing LeBron and Wade. If there was a player that some would have as the best player other than LeBron it was Howard that year. Wade was not even the best player at his position. LeBron haters are attempting to revise history. Wade's peak was 2009 when he was the third best player in the league.

Conseus best player? was Lebron the conseus best player in the Finals? How come Wade has better numbers than Lebron in the 2011 Playoffs and the Finals? How come Lebron got shitted on by Jason Terry and couldn't score on TOSB Marion and TOSB Kidd? :oldlol:

[Dave3]

A month after the finals wasn't long enough for me to truly give an accurate opinion. I co-signed with 'fatal9' in that post without really delving into the metrics and intangibles. More or less, I was ranking the players heading into the 2012 season.

Fast forward to 2014, I realized just how much of a choke 2011 was (had Bron played anywhere up to his standards, the Heat would have 3-peated). Because of this, 2011 Wade, IMO, was the better player.
It just seems like a very extreme change to reverse the 4th best player in the league with best player in the league. It's like someone saying in 2017 that Westbrook (or Chris Paul, or Griffin) was a better player than Durant or LeBron in 2014. It would never happen. That to me shows an obvious agenda.

[Rose'sACL]

Nah, the game was played differently back then and the comparisons wouldn't be valid. Wade & Lebron play on the same team and in the same system, should have just used 36 but since I noticed I put the wrong numbers half way, I was like **** it :oldlol:
Per 100 possession and per 36 mins stats are flawed because being injured/old is a hit for your legacy.
Kobe looks even more inferior than lebron going by per 100 possession stats but you won't admit that because kobe played in the 80s according to you.

[lakerspng]

Kobe stans avoiding this thread like the plague.

drafted onto a team with one of the most dominant players in NBA history in his prime.... ummm why would anyone even bother to place his name? honestly. there's no player in NBA history that would have been the best player on the Lakers if drafted onto the team as a rookie with Shaq in 98.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It just seems like a very extreme change to reverse the 4th best player in the league with best player in the league. It's like someone saying in 2017 that Westbrook (or Chris Paul, or Griffin) was a better player than Durant or LeBron in 2014. It would never happen. That to me shows an obvious agenda.

Not really :confusedshrug:

Dwight/LeBron/Dirk/Wade were actually ALL pretty close that year - and given the epic meltdown LeBron had in the finals, you're really splitting hairs.

[ImKobe]

It just seems like a very extreme change to reverse the 4th best player in the league with best player in the league. It's like someone saying in 2017 that Westbrook (or Chris Paul, or Griffin) was a better player than Durant or LeBron in 2014. It would never happen. That to me shows an obvious agenda.

Lebron wasn't the best player in 2011 after that Post-season, period. He was slightly better than Wade by the numbers in the RS. Wade was the best SG in the league that year and Lebron was the best SF. Regular season, Dwight Howard was probably the best player in the league. Even KD had an argument with leading his team to 55 wins and winning the scoring title at age 22 and making the WCF

And 4th best player? Where did you come up with that? Those rankings are subjective and can be debated. Lebron surely had the edge in the RS, but just barely. There's no denying it when you look at the Playoff numbers and the Finals series.

[Hey Yo]

ONE month after the finals wasn't long enough for me to TRULY give an accurate opinion. I co-signed with 'fatal9' in that post without really delving into the metrics and intangibles. More or less, I was ranking the players heading into the 2012 season.

Fast forward to 2014, I realized just how much of a choke 2011 was (had Bron played anywhere up to his standards, the Heat would have 3-peated). Because of this, 2011 Wade, IMO, was the better player.
If Wade didn't need to be the guy going into the Finals, then Miami would have 3 peated. Wade let his ego get in the way and made the better player hold back to serve his FMVP agenda.

Wade came to his senses shortly after. His decision resulted in B2B rings, with LeBron leading in points, rebounds, assists and steals in both those Finals runs.

James was by far Miami's best player in 2011 except for 1 series.

[Jailblazers7]

I think I only saw one person mention Zeke but he is a good call. You might be able to argue that Dumars was better in Zeke's final year tho.

[Young X]

Wade > Bron in 2011. Comparable regular season, better postseason. :confusedshrug:

Bringing up MVP votes doesn't mean sh!t, Wade's always been overlooked by the media. He only had 4 more votes than Ginobili, that's ridiculous smh.

[Dave3]

Lebron wasn't the best player in 2011 after that Post-season, period. He was slightly better than Wade by the numbers in the RS. Wade was the best SG in the league that year and Lebron was the best SF. Regular season, Dwight Howard was probably the best player in the league. Even KD had an argument with leading his team to 55 wins and winning the scoring title at age 22 and making the WCF

And 4th best player? Where did you come up with that? Those rankings are subjective and can be debated. Lebron surely had the edge in the RS, but just barely. There's no denying it when you look at the Playoff numbers and the Finals series.
4th best player is only talking about Kuvina's ratings. He had Wade 4th and LeBron 1st that year - that's what I meant by 4th, not my own opinion.

As for who the better player was, you're entitled to your opinion, but the majority still had LeBron as the better player, and I definitely still do. LeBron was definitely the better player in the regular season. He was better in every category, and played better against teams like the Celtics, Bulls, Thunder, and Lakers.

As for the playoffs, LeBron was better against the Celtics and Bulls, while Wade was better against the Mavericks. You can talk about LeBron's choke against the Mavericks, yet they wouldn't even be in that position if LeBron didn't make up for Wade's performance against the Bulls - 19/6/2 on 41/20/83. That's every bit as bad as LeBron's performance, but gets much less criticism because a) the team won anyways, and b) there were, and continue to be, higher standards for LeBron in every case.

If the roles were reversed with regards to performance, there is no way Wade would receive the same criticisms LeBron did that year. In fact, people would still put at least half of the blame on LeBron, no matter what. Why? Because the better players is held to the higher standards.

[Dresta]

Secondly, calling LeBron a "regular season warrior who chokes in the playoffs" says more about you than it does about "Bron stans."
Why? That's exactly what he was in 2011: he choked, on the biggest stage, with a title basically in Miami's grasp. It was disgraceful, and no player who performs like that can be legitimately described as being the best in the league, especially when a guy on his own team was outperforming him. You saying his PER didn't drop 4 points from the regular season to the playoffs? You saying the regular season is more important than the playoffs? More important than the finals?


The 2011 MVP voting speaks for itself:

Rose 1,182
Howard 643
LeBron 522
Kobe 428
Durant 190
Dirk 113
Wade 24
Manu 20
Amare 9
Griffin/Rondo 5

Rose won 113 of 121 first place votes. LeBron had 4, Howard 3, Kobe 1 and Wade 0. 96' Pippen (5th in MVP voting, not far behind 4th place Hakeem) was closer to MJ than 11' Wade was to LeBron.

Moreover, LeBron was first team all-NBA while Wade was on the second team. Kobe and Rose took the guard spots on the first team.Yeah, you're right: it speaks for itself in that it shows MVP voters haven't got a ****ing clue what they're doing :lol. Rose with 500 more votes than anyone else - was Rose a better player than Wade too? Better than Bron and Dirk?

Seriously, only an utter cretin would use MVP voting (and cross-comparing votes from 95 with votes from 2011 :facepalm), to justify one player being better to another.

And again: what does REGULAR SEASON mvp voting have to do with this? Is it not in the PLAYOFFS that the best players distinguish themselves? Colour me mistaken for thinking such a thing. You're right: 2011 Manu=2011 Wade, 2011 Kobe>>>> 2011 Dirk. Rose>>>>>>>all.

:confusedshrug:


LeBron in the playoffs: 23.7/8.4/5.9
Wade in the playoffs: 24.5/7.1/4.4

LeBron also was the superior defender. All Wade had over LeBron is 0.8 more points and 1% better shooting.

MVP and all-NBA voting reflects what people thought at the time. Wade was not even the best player at his position according to most people let alone the best player in the league. People are attempting to use one series to revise history. Wade himself recognized LeBron's superiority and took a backseat to LeBron after the 2011 season--not the other way around.
:roll:

Oh yeah, Bron was a defensive beast that year getting torched by Jason Terry. All this inane talk about 'it only being one series' is fatuous to say the least considering Wade outperformed Bron against the Celtics (the team Bron had a history of disappearing acts against), and considering Wade didn't just play better in the finals, Lebron flat out choked like Jana Novotna did.

See this:

http://observer.theguardian.com/osm/story/0,,641727,00.html

Bron 2011 belongs there. One of the worst sporting performances of all time, seriously.

Nobody who does that is the best player on their team when they have a guy putting up 27/7/5/1.5/1.5 on 61TS% playing alongside.

[ArbitraryWater]

2011, LeBron's defensive peak IMO.. beast.

Still the goatly help defender, but man to man he was as good as any other perimeter player in the league... Despicable scum, Wade stans like Dresta will favor Wade, everyone reasonable, won't..

[Rose'sACL]

Why? That's exactly what he was in 2011: he choked, on the biggest stage, with a title basically in Miami's grasp. It was disgraceful, and no player who performs like that can be legitimately described as being the best in the league, especially when a guy on his own team was outperforming him. You saying his PER didn't drop 4 points from the regular season to the playoffs? You saying the regular season is more important than the playoffs? More important than the finals?

Yeah, you're right: it speaks for itself in that it shows MVP voters haven't got a ****ing clue what they're doing :lol. Rose with 500 more votes than anyone else - was Rose a better player than Wade too? Better than Bron and Dirk?

Seriously, only an utter cretin would use MVP voting (and cross-comparing votes from 95 with votes from 2011 :facepalm), to justify one player being better to another.

And again: what does REGULAR SEASON mvp voting have to do with this? Is it not in the PLAYOFFS that the best players distinguish themselves? Colour me mistaken for thinking such a thing. You're right: 2011 Manu=2011 Wade, 2011 Kobe>>>> 2011 Dirk. Rose>>>>>>>all.

:confusedshrug:


:roll:

Oh yeah, Bron was a defensive beast that year getting torched by Jason Terry. All this inane talk about 'it only being one series' is fatuous to say the least considering Wade outperformed Bron against the Celtics (the team Bron had a history of disappearing acts against), and considering Wade didn't just play better in the finals, Lebron flat out choked like Jana Novotna did.

See this:

http://observer.theguardian.com/osm/story/0,,641727,00.html

Bron 2011 belongs there. One of the worst sporting performances of all time, seriously.

Nobody who does that is the best player on their team when they have a guy putting up 27/7/5/1.5/1.5 on 61TS% playing alongside.
the only difference between lebron's 2011 finals and wade's 2011 ECF is that bosh played better in the ECF. if bosh played like that in the finals then heat would have definitely won the finals.
i actually watched that 2011 finals with my frd who is a mavs fan and lebron's defense was really good. i saw only 2 possessions where he could have done more. marion and terry were hitting some really tough shots. is kawhi's defense bad because lebron scored so much in this year's finals?

[ImKobe]

4th best player is only talking about Kuvina's ratings. He had Wade 4th and LeBron 1st that year - that's what I meant by 4th, not my own opinion.

As for who the better player was, you're entitled to your opinion, but the majority still had LeBron as the better player, and I definitely still do. LeBron was definitely the better player in the regular season. He was better in every category, and played better against teams like the Celtics, Bulls, Thunder, and Lakers.

As for the playoffs, LeBron was better against the Celtics and Bulls, while Wade was better against the Mavericks. You can talk about LeBron's choke against the Mavericks, yet they wouldn't even be in that position if LeBron didn't make up for Wade's performance against the Bulls - 19/6/2 on 41/20/83. That's every bit as bad as LeBron's performance, but gets much less criticism because a) the team won anyways, and b) there were, and continue to be, higher standards for LeBron in every case.

If the roles were reversed with regards to performance, there is no way Wade would receive the same criticisms LeBron did that year. In fact, people would still put at least half of the blame on LeBron, no matter what. Why? Because the better players is held to the higher standards.

Well, if Lebron played like Wade did in the Finals and Wade had a bad series, Wade would have certainly gotten a lot of blame because he was healthy and was regarded as a top 5 player and the best at his position with Kobe not being 100%. I guess we are all entitled to our own opinion.

Also, going by the rookie season, was Lebron the best player on that Cavs team? Again it's arguable if you compare statistics, especially efficiency.

[Roundball_Rock]

Conseus best player? was Lebron the conseus best player in the Finals? How come Wade has better numbers than Lebron in the 2011 Playoffs and the Finals?

People are confusing performance over a whole 6 games over ability and who was better over a legitimate sample size. Parker outperformed Duncan in the 07' Finals, Dumars Isiah in 90', Maxwell Bird in 81', etc. Does that mean they were better players? LeBron had slightly better playoff numbers overall. Wade does not impact the boards or passing game like LeBron.


Wade was the best SG in the league that year

That wasn't the view in 2011. Most people thought Kobe was. Wade was also behind Rose among guards in all-NBA voting.


Rose with 500 more votes than anyone else - was Rose a better player than Wade too? Better than Bron and Dirk?

:lol at conflating MVP votes among players on different teams with teammates. Rose won because of his team situation; Wade finished well behind LeBron because he was not as good a player. That is the same reason why Kobe was behind Shaq and Pippen behind Jordan--and both of those players came closer than Wade did in several years. The MVP voting reflects the fact that people at the time viewed LeBron as the main force on the Heat.

[ArbitraryWater]

Not really :confusedshrug:

Dwight/LeBron/Dirk/Wade were actually ALL pretty close that year - and given the epic meltdown LeBron had in the finals, you're really splitting hairs.

Players don't get better or worse so easily, their surroundings and season does.

LeBron wasn't automatically on Dwight/Wade/Dirk level, when he had huge gaps above them the seasons prior and after.

You would take LeBron at any draft, AGAIN, around this time, to start the 2011 season with..

[Myth]

I should have made this thread retired players only so it didn't become a LeBron debate. My bad guys :hammerhead:

[Dresta]

If Wade didn't need to be the guy going into the Finals, then Miami would have 3 peated. Wade let his ego get in the way and made the better player hold back to serve his FMVP agenda.

Wade came to his senses shortly after. His decision resulted in B2B rings, with LeBron leading in points, rebounds, assists and steals in both those Finals runs.

James was by far Miami's best player in 2011 except for 1 series.
:no:

More Bron-stan mythology right here. Wade had nothing to do with Lebron's choke, stop making shit up. His USG% was lower in the Mavs series than it was in Boston series that Miami won in 5. The difference being the supposed best player on the team actually showed up in that series (even if Wade played a good deal better). He actually shot better than 12-20 from the FT line in that series (was this Wade's fault too?).

4th best player is only talking about Kuvina's ratings. He had Wade 4th and LeBron 1st that year - that's what I meant by 4th, not my own opinion.

As for who the better player was, you're entitled to your opinion, but the majority still had LeBron as the better player, and I definitely still do. LeBron was definitely the better player in the regular season. He was better in every category, and played better against teams like the Celtics, Bulls, Thunder, and Lakers.

As for the playoffs, LeBron was better against the Celtics and Bulls, while Wade was better against the Mavericks. You can talk about LeBron's choke against the Mavericks, yet they wouldn't even be in that position if LeBron didn't make up for Wade's performance against the Bulls - 19/6/2 on 41/20/83. That's every bit as bad as LeBron's performance, but gets much less criticism because a) the team won anyways, and b) there were, and continue to be, higher standards for LeBron in every case.

If the roles were reversed with regards to performance, there is no way Wade would receive the same criticisms LeBron did that year. In fact, people would still put at least half of the blame on LeBron, no matter what. Why? Because the better players is held to the higher standards.He was?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011_ECS.html

Doesn't look that way to me, not even close.

[ArbitraryWater]

:no:

More Bron-stan mythology right here. Wade had nothing to do with Lebron's choke, stop making shit up. His USG% was lower in the Mavs series than it was in Boston series that Miami won in 5. The difference being the supposed best player on the team actually showed up in that series (even if Wade played a good deal better). He actually shot better than 12-20 from the FT line in that series (was this Wade's fault too?).
He was?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011_ECS.html

Doesn't look that way to me, not even close.

Fun Fact about that ECSF:

LeBron yet again was the series' best Player.. Wade couldn't close, LeBron was THE CLOSER and epically finished the C's off in Game's 4, 5 and even 2.

[Meticode]

Not trying to be funny but you can make a strong claim that dwade was better than lebron in 2010

What's the strong claim in regards too? LeBron played better across the board in almost every statistical category for the most part. To me it looks like 1a LeBron 1b Wade in 2010.

[ImKobe]

People are confusing performance over a whole 6 games over ability and who was better over a legitimate sample size. Parker outperformed Duncan in the 07' Finals, Dumars Isiah in 90', Maxwell Bird in 81', etc. Does that mean they were better players? LeBron had slightly better playoff numbers overall. Wade does not impact the boards or passing game like LeBron.



That wasn't the view in 2011. Most people thought Kobe was. Wade was also behind Rose among guards in all-NBA voting.



:lol at conflating MVP votes among players on different teams with teammates. Rose won because of his team situation; Wade finished well behind LeBron because he was not as good a player. That is the same reason why Kobe was behind Shaq and Pippen behind Jordan--and both of those players came closer than Wade did in several years. The MVP voting reflects the fact that people at the time viewed LeBron as the main force on the Heat.

Wade played better than Kobe in 2011. Just look at the numbers, especially against Dallas. Kobe had issues with his knees and couldn't play at his best.

[ArbitraryWater]

Stop it... You don't know what you're talking about, child.

"child" is your thing, right?

And no, it's basically acknowledged that Havlicek was the best player on the 2 title teams in 1968 and 1969, which seems to be what you're disagreeing with.

[KG215]

Durant has been so far.

And no, I'm not going through all 9 pages to see if that's already been mentioned, although I'm sure if it was there were some posters that were quick to point out Westbrook is better, the true leader of the team, the alpha and Durant is his beta, etc.

[Rose'sACL]

Durant has been so far.

And no, I'm not going through all 9 pages to see if that's already been mentioned, although I'm sure if it was there were some posters that were quick to point out Westbrook is better, the true leader of the team, the alpha and Durant is his beta, etc.
bump this in a couple of years if durant leaves for any team other than the lakers and just watch how many idiots say that westbrook was the best player on okc.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dude, I was looking up old threads from back then just to see what people were saying back then and I ran into this from September of 2011...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6344935&postcount=20

You had LeBron first and Wade 4th in the entire league. It's not only revisionist history, you're revising your own words...

lol..

And for those who DO think Wade was > LeBron in the ECSF (Which would be the only argument to at least be 2-2 in the playoffs, considering LeBron easily outplayed him in the regular season)

ECSF:
Wade: 30/7/5 on 53%
LeBron: 28/8/4 on 47%

ECF:
Wade: 19/6/2 on 40%
LeBron: 26/8/7 on 45%

That's a different kind of outplaying..


Also, lot at the same people who downplay LeBron's stats in losses, like this year's finals, but now use Wade's 2011 finals stats to have him above LeBron.. Funny shit.

[Bigsmoke]

What about KD?

[Dresta]

People are confusing performance over a whole 6 games over ability and who was better over a legitimate sample size. Parker outperformed Duncan in the 07' Finals, Dumars Isiah in 90', Maxwell Bird in 81', etc. Does that mean they were better players? LeBron had slightly better playoff numbers overall. Wade does not impact the boards or passing game like LeBron.



He doesn't? Then why in the 11 playoffs were their rebound percentages practically the same; how did Wade manage to grab a much higher % (and grab a higher total) of offensive boards despite being 4 inches shorter?

Wade also doesn't impact the game with his passing despite having averaged more than 6.5 assists every season of his career before Bron joined (except Rookie)?

This is not impacting a game with extraordinary passing?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngJSHNxtSko

Have you even watched this Miami Heat team play the last 4 years? Their success offensively was predicated around having 2 dynamic (excellent playmakers & passers) guys on the perimeter. Just go and watch a Wade & Bron alley-oop mix and tell me Wade's passing didn't help Bron at least as much as Bron's passing helped Wade. They are both great passers, and have been for a long time.

[Rose'sACL]

He doesn't? Then why in the 11 playoffs were their rebound percentages practically the same; how did Wade manage to grab a much higher % (and grab a higher total) of offensive boards despite being 4 inches shorter?

Wade also doesn't impact the game with his passing despite having averaged more than 6.5 assists every season of his career before Bron joined (except Rookie)?

This is not impacting a game with extraordinary passing?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngJSHNxtSko

Have you even watched this Miami Heat team play the last 4 years? Their success offensively was predicated around having 2 dynamic (excellent playmakers & passers) guys on the perimeter. Just go and watch a Wade & Bron alley-oop mix and tell me Wade's passing didn't help Bron at least as much as Bron's passing helped Wade. They are both great passers, and have been for a long time.
he used the word "as much as lebron". he didnt say that he was a bad passer.
why are you so insecure about being a heat fan? Everyone knows you are a true heat fan. Stop making stupid posts to prove your fandom. it is better to be a good poster than a "true" team fan.

[Dresta]

he used the word "as much as lebron". he didnt say that he was a bad passer.
why are you so insecure about being a heat fan? Everyone knows you are a true heat fan. Stop making stupid posts to prove your fandom. it is better to be a good poster than a "true" team fan.
I'm not insecure, i just don't see any evidence for his assertions. Wade averaged more offensive boards than Bron despite being a good deal shorter - offensive boards impact the game more than defensive boards. I also have never thought Lebron a better passer than Wade; he is an overrated passer (some people think he's better than Bird, compare him to Magic etc.) and Wade is an underrated passer. Bron has averaged more assists than Wade since being in Miami because he has dominated the ball far more.

[Rose'sACL]

I'm not insecure, i just don't see any evidence for his assertions. Wade averaged more offensive boards than Bron despite being a good deal shorter - offensive boards impact the game more than defensive boards. I also have never thought Lebron a better passer than Wade; he is an overrated passer (some people think he's better than Bird, compare him to Magic etc.) and Wade is an underrated passer. Bron has averaged more assists than Wade since being in Miami because he has dominated the ball far more.
i read the bold part and knew that you are right. how can anyone argue against that?

[Dresta]

i read the bold part and knew that you are right. how can anyone argue against that?
I could post the numbers, but what good would it do? Look it up for yourself: Wade posted higher assist % than Bron 4 out of the 7 seasons they played in Miami and Cleveland respectively. He had a higher Assist % in 4 of the last 5 seasons before Bron joined him in Miami.

[Rose'sACL]

I could post the numbers, but what good would it do? Look it up for yourself: Wade posted higher assist % than Bron 4 out of the 7 seasons they played in Miami and Cleveland respectively. He had a higher Assist % in 4 of the last 5 seasons before Bron joined him in Miami.
and? i just agreed with you. everyone knows that assist% and rebound% are the best stats.
Do you want me to debate you on this even though we agree?
i also agree that heat is better now without lebron dominating the ball so that wade and bosh can get back to their 2010 self.
two players producing 27-6-6 and 24-9 on the same team would absolutely demolish the league.

[SMoKe0uT]

Duncan dafuq outta here :biggums:

Kawhi and Parker both were better at one point

[Roundball_Rock]

Wade played better than Kobe in 2011.

Few people thought that in 2011.


Durant has been so far.

And no, I'm not going through all 9 pages to see if that's already been mentioned, although I'm sure if it was there were some posters that were quick to point out Westbrook is better, the true leader of the team, the alpha and Durant is his beta, etc.

Westbrook outplayed Durant for an entire playoffs, not just one series. Using that logic employed by some, does that mean Westbrook>KD?


Then why in the 11 playoffs were their rebound percentages practically the same;

176 rebounds>150.
LeBron had 123 assists. Wade had 92.
Wade scored 18 more points and had 3 more blocks, though.

Wade averages 5.0 rebounds for his career. LeBron averages 7.2 for his career and 7.6 during his time in Miami.


Wade also doesn't impact the game with his passing despite having averaged more than 6.5 assists every season of his career before Bron joined

Who said that? What I said is he has less impact than LeBron. Look at their assist numbers while playing together in Miami:

LeBron: 7.0, 6.2, 7.3, 6.3.
Wade: 4.6, 4.6, 5.1, 4.7.

How about rebounds?

LeBron: 7.5, 7.9, 8.0, 6.9.
Wade: 6.4, 4.8, 5.0, 4.5.

LeBron has always been a better passer, rebounder, and defender than Wade. All Wade had over LeBron was scoring 0.8 more points--once in four postseasons together. Again, it was Wade he deferred to LeBron after 2011--not the other way around. Wade was a top 3 player at his peak and top 5 for several other years, including 2011, but he is not on LeBron's level. LeBron arguably will be top 3-5 all-time when it is all said and done, not top 3-5 for a couple of seasons.

[KG215]

Westbrook outplayed Durant for an entire playoffs, not just one series. Using that logic employed by some, does that mean Westbrook>KD?
Thing is, Westbrook didn't even really, noticeably, outplay Durant in the playoffs this year. I'd say it was mostly a wash although Durant's numbers were better. People like to conveniently ignore the fact that due to Westbrook having to rest and nurse injuries, he played 1,700 fewer minutes than Durant in the regular season. Both were wore down by the end of the playoffs due to having to shoulder a big load, but Durant played more minutes than any other player in the NBA in the regular season, then played 43 minutes a night in the playoffs (4 more minutes per game than Westbrook) and his fatigue really started to show a lot quicker than a fresher, better rested Westbrook.