LeBron won 66 games with the '09 Cavs.

[Carbine]

His supporting cast included:

Mo Williams - 17/4

Delonte West - 11/3

Big Z - 13/7

Andy V

Sasha Pavlovic - 4 ppg

Hickson - 4/3

Boobie Gibson, washed up Wally and Dead Ben Wallace




Now he has:

Kyrie Irving - 21/6

Waiters - 16/3

Thompson - 12/9

Andy V

Wiggins/Bennett - Huge upside


They have a better second option and better players 3-7 overall.

60+ wins seems possible even without no moves being made.

[ArbitraryWater]

2009: 66-16 (Best/Nr.1 Record in the NBA) w/ LeBron: +15 w/o LeBron: -6.2 (21.2)

Biggest difference ever?

[SouBeachTalents]

I'll never get how he won 60 games in Cleveland twice, but only managed that once in Miami

[TheReal Kendall]

What's your point? Did someone say they couldn't win 60+ games?

[Rose'sACL]

lebron played with role players in 09 who knew their ceiling.
He will be playing this year with player who might become stars or even superstars in a few years but are not there yet. there might be some really big problems if those players already think of themselves as superstars.

[TheReal Kendall]

lebron played with role players in 09 who knew their ceiling.
He will be playing this year with player who might become stars or even superstars in a few years but are not there yet. there might be some really big problems if those players already think of themselves as superstars.

Honestly I could see him having problems with Kyrie. Cause of his style of play.

[Droid101]

Care to post the three point shooting accuracy and team defense metrics?

Of course not.

[ImKobe]

It's not just about raw numbers. The team just complemented Lebron perfectly and they played as a unit. Still couldn't beat the Orlando Magic doe.

[ImKobe]

Care to post the three point shooting accuracy and team defense metrics?

Of course not.

Why would he, it would just destroy his argument and render his thread useless.

Now we'll have 10 pages of trolling

[Inactive]

I'll never get how he won 60 games in Cleveland twice, but only managed that once in MiamiMiami coasted in the regular season, whereas the Cavaliers took pride in winning regular season games. The only time we really saw Miami take games against <.500 teams seriously was during the 27 game winning streak.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Were exposed by the first 50-win team they ran into.

Also, as someone mentioned, the team's defense and outside shooting were top-notch. Good luck getting that from this version of Cleveland.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Why would he, it would just destroy his argument and render his thread useless.

Now we'll have 10 pages of trolling

Look at the roster. Anyone defending it obviously has an agenda. It was a dogshit team with no talent.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Care to post the three point shooting accuracy and team defense metrics?

Of course not.


3 point shooting has a lot to with Lebron...so did defense to a lesser degree...


That 09 team was awful with Lebron off the court

[3LiftHeatCurse]

2009: 66-16 (Best/Nr.1 Record in the NBA) w/ LeBron: +15 w/o LeBron: -6.2 (21.2)

Biggest difference ever?

It's because of LEquit's skill set.

You -have- to make him the centerpiece of the team, or else you can't win with him. So what ends up happening, is the team he plays on, adjusts to him and let him succeed.

But the system is set up for failure - because when he is out, or when he plays bad, then the team fails. And it's not because "Lequit has to carry them" but because the team was built and the coach plans for everything to revolve around him because that's the only way to succeed with lequit.

If you try to play more "team ball", look at the 2011 finals.

[ArbitraryWater]

Care to post the three point shooting accuracy and team defense metrics?

Of course not.

What the hell? :lol

Since when is that the criteria to go by for evaluating supporting cast? :roll:

Hilarious..

LeBron did it without any stars, deal with it.. Kobe would't be able to achieve that in his lifetime. Just facts you need to deal with without asking for 3 point shooting accuracy :roll:

[Genaro]

Those Cavs rosters when won 60 games were very good defensively and were the perfect complement to Lebron on offense. They get very underrated by those who only look the numbers.
I'm sure Lebron can win 60 games and maybe a ring with the current Cavs team but this team isn't molded to Lebron needs.

[ArbitraryWater]

It's not just about raw numbers. The team just complemented Lebron perfectly and they played as a unit. Still couldn't beat the Orlando Magic doe.

They'll say that while his teammates weren't as good, they "compliment" LeBron well and that evens it out, which is laughable. Why can't they compliment LeBron's game with all-star players? I'm sure that would work, too. If LeBron does wonders with scrubs that does not justify giving him scrubs. Had LeBron played with all-stars and they didn't perform as well then they might have an argument. However, that does not seem to be the case.

You guys are amazing though, for keeping up with the "COMPLIMENTARY CAST!!!" comments... Try it all, every single theory, play it out, but NEVER, EVER, give Lebron the credit he deserves for pulling off historical stuff.. good job :applause:

Edit: Just look at the comment above :roll:

Acting like his team was so special defensively.. :rolleyes:

[Droid101]

3 point shooting has a lot to with Lebron...so did defense to a lesser degree...

So why did the 2014 Heat shoot 36% on threes, while the 2009 Cavs shot 39%?

I thought it was all this attention LeBron gets, and not the actual skill of the person taking the shot, according to you?

[ThePhantomCreep]

What the hell? :lol

Since when is that the criteria to go by for evaluating supporting cast? :roll:

Hilarious..

LeBron did it without any stars, deal with it.. Kobe would't be able to achieve that in his lifetime. Just facts you need to deal with without asking for 3 point shooting accuracy :roll:


Did what exactly? Lose to the first decent team the Cavs faced? Kobe's Lakers beat more 50-win teams in those 2009 playoffs than LeBron during his entire stay in Cleveland.

[VengefulAngel]

They'll say that while his teammates weren't as good, they "compliment" LeBron well and that evens it out, which is laughable. Why can't they compliment LeBron's game with all-star players? I'm sure that would work, too. If LeBron does wonders with scrubs that does not justify giving him scrubs. Had LeBron played with all-stars and they didn't perform as well then they might have an argument. However, that does not seem to be the case.

You guys are amazing though, for keeping up with the "COMPLIMENTARY CAST!!!" comments... Try it all, every single theory, play it out, but NEVER, EVER, give Lebron the credit he deserves for pulling off historical stuff.. good job :applause:

Edit: Just look at the comment above :roll:

Acting like his team was so special defensively.. :rolleyes:


http://i58.tinypic.com/2zdpsfl.png

1)This team's defense was average at best.
2) Lebron assisted on 42% of points whilst he was on the floor.

[CavaliersFTW]

"The '09 Cavs won 66 games with Lebron"

^--- that should be the thread title.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

So why did the 2014 Heat shoot 36% on threes, while the 2009 Cavs shot 39%?

I thought it was all this attention LeBron gets, and not the actual skill of the person taking the shot, according to you?

By your logic Boogie Gibson is a good player because he can catch and hit a wide open 3...that team had some good role players but it wasn't close to the supporting cast of a typical 66 win team...

[Droid101]

By your logic Boogie Gibson is a good player because he can catch and hit a wide open 3...that team had some good role players but it wasn't close to the supporting cast of a typical 66 win team...
He's a good player in a certain system... say, one where you have a ball dominant guy driving and kicking all game.

The Cavs were built specifically for LeBron's skill set. Elite defensive system, great outside shooting.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

As to the OP I think if they improve their frontcourt they can win 60 but right now they're extremely thin upfront

[Rose'sACL]

So why did the 2014 Heat shoot 36% on threes, while the 2009 Cavs shot 39%?

I thought it was all this attention LeBron gets, and not the actual skill of the person taking the shot, according to you?
allen and battier pretty much retired? i didn't see anyone comparing 2014 heat 3 pt shooters to cavs 3 pt shooters.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

He's a good player in a certain system... say, one where you have a ball dominant guy driving and kicking all game.

The Cavs were built specifically for LeBron's skill set. Elite defensive system, great outside shooting.

Name me a 66 win team who wouldve been worse without their best player than the 09 cavs...I'll wait

[Skyscraper]

It's not just about raw numbers. The team just complemented Lebron perfectly and they played as a unit. Still couldn't beat the Orlando Magic doe.


In that ECF series in 09, Dwight very visibly yelled at Lebron many times "you get every call"

Can't find it on Youtube right now, no doubt taken down by the same people who took away the JOrdan Crawford dunk



Lebron won 60 games because he put his will on the games and the refs rewarded him with every call


Has nothing to do with role players knowing their roles.

[MellowYellow]

2009 Lebron was more athletic and had much more stamina than current Lebron, i don't think he can carry the load like he used to.

[ThePhantomCreep]

http://i58.tinypic.com/2zdpsfl.png

1)This team's defense was average at best.
2) Lebron assisted on 42% of points whilst he was on the floor.


1st in points allowed, 1st in opp 3FG%, 2nd in opp FG%, 3rd in defensive rating = average at best?

[VengefulAngel]

Name me a 66 win team who wouldve been worse without their best player than the 09 cavs...I'll wait

Heres a list to help him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_teams_by_single_season_win_percentage

[VengefulAngel]

1st in points allowed, 2nd in opp FG%, 3rd in defensive rating = average at best?

without Lebron... the 09 Cavs were barely a playoff team without Lebron.

[SexSymbol]

09 and 10 cavs were incredibly well rounded defensive teams who had Lebron taking care of offense.
amazing role players to be honest, especially the 10 team

[ArbitraryWater]

Did what exactly? Lose to the first decent team the Cavs faced? Kobe's Lakers beat more 50-win teams in those 2009 playoffs than LeBron during his entire stay in Cleveland.

Back to back 60+ win seasons and 2 nr.1 records... doing that.

[Big Cheese]

Those cavs teams were the definition of a regular season team. They have NO offensive system at all. Everyone either had to create their own shot or have the table set by Lebron. In a 7 game series, it was easy to game plan against them and shut that crap offense down. Mike Brown didnt help by making few to zero adjustments when the other team exposed them.

[no pun intended]

I'll never get how he won 60 games in Cleveland twice, but only managed that once in Miami
http://www.soraspy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/mikebrown.jpg

[ArbitraryWater]

Such amazing role players!!!!

[SouBeachTalents]

Name me a 66 win team who wouldve been worse without their best player than the 09 cavs...I'll wait

Only team that comes close is the '07 Mavs

[ArbitraryWater]

"The '09 Cavs won 66 games with Lebron"

^--- that should be the thread title.

Stop going full retard

[ThePhantomCreep]

Back to back 60+ win seasons and 2 nr.1 records... doing that.


Beat ONE 50-win team in the postseason from 2003-2010.

O-N-E. Sounds pretty historical to me.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Only team that comes close is the '07 Mavs

Another legendary team in NBA history.

[VengefulAngel]

Beat ONE 50-win team in the postseason from 2003-2010.

O-N-E. Sounds pretty historical to me.
Your argument:

So the team gets all the credit and none of the blame?

Lebron gets all the blame and none of the credit...

You should not be allowed to post, all of your posts are asinine.

Do you not realise the contradiction?

[SexSymbol]

Such amazing role players!!!!
Why are you dismissing the contribution of other players?

[Rocketswin2013]

09 and 10 cavs were incredibly well rounded defensive teams who had Lebron taking care of offense.
amazing role players to be honest, especially the 10 team
As if he didn't lead them in every advanced defensive statistic and wasn't first team all-defensive.


He was playing more than 40 MPG and led an elite defense in DRTG.

[Ne 1]

They were an elite defensive team and an elite rebounding team, funny how people ignore this and act like basketball is just one side of the floor, and the were also one of the leagues best 3-point shooting teams.

[SexSymbol]

As if he didn't lead them in every advanced defensive statistic and wasn't first team all-defensive.


He was playing more than 40 MPG and led an elite defense in DRTG.
He wasn't a very good defender in 09, even most of his fans agree on that, that was more of Brown's system.
Boozer was great statistically too, but he's always been shit.
LeBron improved in 10 doe,

[dubeta]

kobe stans insecure, lebron wins 66 games with scrubs while kobe cant even make playoffs with scrubs (2005)

[6 for 24]

kobe stans insecure, lebron wins 66 games with scrubs while kobe cant even make playoffs with scrubs (2005)

I believe Kobe made the playoffs with scrubs in 2013, yea or nay? This, even after all of the experts had that team of journeymen (Nash, Artest, Gasol, Dwight) finishing last in the conference. How good is Kobe to have gotten them the #7 seed? That is a rhetorical question, tee hee.

Warmest regards,

Ayotunde Ndiaye

[VengefulAngel]

I believe Kobe made the playoffs with scrubs in 2013, yea or nay? This, even after all of the experts had that team of journeymen (Nash, Artest, Gasol, Dwight) finishing last in the conference. How good is Kobe to have gotten them the #7 seed? That is a rhetorical question, tee hee.

Warmest regards,

Ayotunde Ndiaye

Lebron has had 7 seasons better than Kobe's best in terms of WS.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_season.html

[Hey Yo]

Your argument:

So the team gets all the credit and none of the blame?

Lebron gets all the blame and none of the credit...

You should not be allowed to post, all of your posts are asinine.

Do you not realise the contradiction?
Damn, Phantom Creep just got Singlar'd

https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/95B6D5B31A1049897745055395840_1b3f335bbdf.4.8.6806 909197702796448.mp4?versionId=rbM5Y5RdVA3tQCcDfL.A uO.6I5qJs9wL

[SexSymbol]

Lebron has had 7 seasons better than Kobe's best in terms of WS.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_season.html

Yeah and Kobe has 2,5 times the thing that everybody plays for more than lebron

[Roundball_Rock]

kobe stans insecure, lebron wins 66 games with scrubs while kobe cant even make playoffs with scrubs (2005)

Well he did in 2006 and 2007. It is interesting, we saw both Kobe and Wade--at their peaks no less--playing with scrubs and both had one lousy non-playoff season and spent the other two years struggling to get to 0.500. LeBron simply is on another level than them and any other player of this era, including Durant. LeBron+anyone is basically 50+ wins guaranteed. That is what LeBron has produced ever since he turned 21. The Cavs did win only 45 in 2008--but that is because those scrubs went 0-7 (yes, 0-7...) without him.

[VengefulAngel]

Yeah and Kobe has 2,5 times the thing that everybody plays for more than lebron

You got caught, so playoff wins are a team accomplishment, and playoffs wins are an individual accomplishment?

YOU HAVE TO BE CONSISTENT. (Transitivity).

You can't have one but not the other.

[Hands of Iron]

Well he did in 2006 and 2007. It is interesting, we saw both Kobe and Wade--at their peaks no less--playing with scrubs and both had one lousy non-playoff season and spent the other two years struggling to get to 0.500. LeBron simply is on another level than them and any other player of this era, including Durant. LeBron+anyone is basically 50+ wins guaranteed. That is what LeBron has produced ever since he turned 21. The Cavs did win only 45 in 2008--but that is because those scrubs went 0-7 (yes, 0-7...) without him.

:applause:

[SexSymbol]

You got caught, so playoff wins are a team accomplishment, and playoffs wins are an individual accomplishment?

YOU HAVE TO BE CONSISTENT. (Transitivity).

You can't have one but not the other.
How did I get caught :biggums:
You're trying to grab straws man.
In a few years there may be a discussion between the two depending on how LeBron does with these Cavs, but for now have patience, you're acting like a kid grabing WS. What's next? PER? FG%? :D
I mean from every player in history saying it it should be very clear that rings are the only thing that matters. The only thing you should play for is winning, and you can count people who have been better leaders in terms of winning than Kobe on one hand.

[dubeta]

I've noticed that both wade and kobe were 1st round losers without another star, both in their primes as well

Wade 2007-2010, missed playoffs, lose in 1st round

Kobe 2005-2007 Misses playoffs, lose in 1st round

Wade needed Shaq in the beginning, and then LeBron later on just to be relevant

Kobe need Shaq in the beginning, and then Gasol just to be relevant

LeBron by himself with no stars can win 66 games and go to the ECF

LeBron is definitely on a different level than either of them

IMO is terms of overall game tier 1 is LeBron, Jordan, Shaq, Wilt etc.

and Kobe and Wade are with the Melo's, Tmac, A.I's of the world

[SilkkTheShocker]

"complement well" is a fancy way of saying they lacked talent. You can always count on Kobe stans to make this argument :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

Well he did in 2006 and 2007. It is interesting, we saw both Kobe and Wade--at their peaks no less--playing with scrubs and both had one lousy non-playoff season and spent the other two years struggling to get to 0.500. LeBron simply is on another level than them and any other player of this era, including Durant. LeBron+anyone is basically 50+ wins guaranteed. That is what LeBron has produced ever since he turned 21. The Cavs did win only 45 in 2008--but that is because those scrubs went 0-7 (yes, 0-7...) without him.


So you dismiss the 08 Lakers? Kobe putting them on top of the Western Conference before the Gasol trade? Funny how you put Kobe and Wade in the same category when both of them won at least one ring with only one all-star on the roster and they never switched teams to put themselves in a better position to win.


Kobe and Wade have more rings than James. I know it hurts.

[SexSymbol]

I've noticed that both wade and kobe were 1st round losers without another star, both in their primes as well

Wade 2007-2010, missed playoffs, lose in 1st round

Kobe 2005-2007 Misses playoffs, lose in 1st round

Wade needed Shaq in the beginning, and then LeBron later on just to be relevant

Kobe need Shaq in the beginning, and then Gasol just to be relevant

LeBron by himself with no stars can win 66 games and go to the ECF

LeBron is definitely on a different level than either of them

IMO is terms of overall game tier 1 is LeBron, Jordan, Shaq, Wilt etc.

and Kobe and Wade are with the Melo's, Tmac, A.I's of the world
A monkey would learn how to troll properly by his 1115th post. And you still can't do it

[VengefulAngel]

How did I get caught :biggums:
You're trying to grab straws man.
In a few years there may be a discussion between the two depending on how LeBron does with these Cavs, but for now have patience, you're acting like a kid grabing WS. What's next? PER? FG%? :D
I mean from every player in history saying it it should be very clear that rings are the only thing that matters. The only thing you should play for is winning, and you can count people who have been better leaders in terms of winning than Kobe on one hand.

I notice you didn't answer the point at hand. Also I didn't realise if every player told me that 'ring's are the only thing that matters' then that must be the case.

Can you come with one cogent argument for the contradiction in the aforementioned posts?

So can I get this straight, I should judge players not by their raw production but the teammates which they have?

There is a reason we look at PER, FG% and WS it shows how an individual contributes to the success of a team. (partly anyway)

[Droid101]

"complement well" is a fancy way of saying they lacked talent. You can always count on Kobe stans to make this argument :oldlol:
Did mom buy you a new Cavs jersey yet? Or did you just dust off your old one from the closet?

[dubeta]

A monkey would learn how to troll properly by his 1115th post. And you still can't do it

lmao u keep trying to get at me

rent free :cheers:

[ImKobe]

"complement well" is a fancy way of saying they lacked talent. You can always count on Kobe stans to make this argument :oldlol:

Kobe: 5/7

Lebron: 2/5

[Hey Yo]

Kobe: 5/7

Lebron: 2/5
Kobe 2/3
Lebron 2/4

[SexSymbol]

lmao u keep trying to get at me

rent free :cheers:
It's just that you fail to be an attention seeking whore who doesn't believe in what he says.
Imagine what would happen if you tried to be a normal poster.
SHit, now that I think about it, it's probably for the best that you chose such a bad gimmick.
Move on bro, nobody gives a shit about you! :cheers:

[dubeta]

Kobe: 5/7

Lebron: 2/5

Kobe's 2/7 and 1/18 actually

[VengefulAngel]

Kobe: 5/7

Lebron: 2/5


It's not just about raw numbers. The team just complemented Lebron perfectly and they played as a unit. Still couldn't beat the Orlando Magic doe.

Why didn't you point out the supporting cast for Kobe?

Looks at username...

I expected as much...

[Ne 1]

2006 Wizards (42-40)
2007 Wizards (42-40)
2007 Nets (41-41)
2007 Pistons (53-29)
2008 Wizards (43-39)
2009 Pistons (39-43)
2009 Hawks (47-35)
2010 Bulls (41-41)


There isn't an all star in this league incapable of duplicating Lebron's "success" with the Cavs. Those teams dont even make the playoffs in the West.

Any superstar in league history when paired with a top defensive, top rebounding and top three point shooting supporting cast is capable of duplicating what Lebron accomplished given the competition with the Cavs. People with agendas love to make his teammates look worse than they are just to prop up LeBron. The team perfectly complimented his talents or any superstar wing for that matter.

[HurricaneKid]

09 LeBron James was arguably the best player of the last 50 years.

Without him Cle was ~-6pts/100 possessions. Thats bottom 3-4 in the NBA. With him they were +15/100. They were top 10 all time in wins with Mo freaking Williams as their #2.

In "Clutch" moments he shot 56% with (per 48min) 55.9pts, 14.3reb, 12.6asst, 3.5Stl. With LeBron in the game in clutch situations they outscored their opponents by 103 points in 111 min.

Despite losing before the Finals LeBron has the record for postseason WS/48. If you understand WS you get how insane that is.

His RAPM was 11.3. I don't think MJ ever got above 6, though I only have his ratings starting with his first title.

[VengefulAngel]

09 LeBron James was arguably the best player of the last 50 years.

Without him Cle was ~-6pts/100 possessions. Thats bottom 3-4 in the NBA. With him they were +15/100. They were top 10 all time in wins with Mo freaking Williams as their #2.

In "Clutch" moments he shot 56% with (per 48min) 55.9pts, 14.3reb, 12.6asst, 3.5Stl. With LeBron in the game in clutch situations they outscored their opponents by 103 points in 111 min.

Despite losing before the Finals LeBron has the record for postseason WS/48. If you understand WS you get how insane that is.

His RAPM was 11.3. I don't think MJ ever got above 6, though I only have his ratings starting with his first title.

:applause:

[SexSymbol]

09 LeBron James was arguably the best player of the last 50 years.

Without him Cle was ~-6pts/100 possessions. Thats bottom 3-4 in the NBA. With him they were +15/100. They were top 10 all time in wins with Mo freaking Williams as their #2.

In "Clutch" moments he shot 56% with (per 48min) 55.9pts, 14.3reb, 12.6asst, 3.5Stl. With LeBron in the game in clutch situations they outscored their opponents by 103 points in 111 min.

Despite losing before the Finals LeBron has the record for postseason WS/48. If you understand WS you get how insane that is.

His RAPM was 11.3. I don't think MJ ever got above 6, though I only have his ratings starting with his first title.

Ousted by a Dwight Howard led team.

[ImKobe]

Ousted by a Dwight Howard led team.

Forever Dwight Howard's bitch

His pretty PER and WS/48 had no answer for the mental midget that Kobe destroyed in the Finals

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2731761/kbp1.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jamZf5u5jCw

Lebron: empty stats

Kobe:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t185/abdi_23/kobe4rings.jpg

[Droid101]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jamZf5u5jCw

Jesus Christ.

[ArbitraryWater]

09 LeBron James was arguably the best player of the last 50 years.

Without him Cle was ~-6pts/100 possessions. Thats bottom 3-4 in the NBA. With him they were +15/100. They were top 10 all time in wins with Mo freaking Williams as their #2.

In "Clutch" moments he shot 56% with (per 48min) 55.9pts, 14.3reb, 12.6asst, 3.5Stl. With LeBron in the game in clutch situations they outscored their opponents by 103 points in 111 min.

Despite losing before the Finals LeBron has the record for postseason WS/48. If you understand WS you get how insane that is.

His RAPM was 11.3. I don't think MJ ever got above 6, though I only have his ratings starting with his first title.

+

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7193/perplayoffs.jpg

(Hakeem played 1 round, loosing 1-3 in 4 games... LeBron's = Best)

It's funny seing people say Kobe was better in 2009 :lol

[ImKobe]

Jesus Christ.

I think it was right after that play the Lakers went on a big run and the series was over by the end of the 3rd

[SexSymbol]

+

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7193/perplayoffs.jpg

(Hakeem played 1 round, loosing 1-3 in 4 games... LeBron's = Best)

It's funny seing people say Kobe was better in 2009 :lol
You're insane. Measuring player by rapm ws or any other stat is when you don't have any substance to base your assumptions on.
Kobe got the ring and dominated in the PO's

Beside's, it's quite funny how majority of the top 10 didn't lead their team to the ring

[ImKobe]

+

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7193/perplayoffs.jpg

(Hakeem played 1 round, loosing 1-3 in 4 games... LeBron's = Best)

It's funny seing people say Kobe was better in 2009 :lol

Kobe: 2009 Finals MVP

Lebron: Playoff exit

I'll take the Finals MVP over being 2nd to Hakeem in Playoff PER :lol

Maybe they will invent a PER trophy soon

[Genaro]

+

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7193/perplayoffs.jpg

(Hakeem played 1 round, loosing 1-3 in 4 games... LeBron's = Best)

It's funny seing people say Kobe was better in 2009 :lol
Funny how 10 out of 15 players on that list didn't win on that year. Sounds like empty stats for me.

[dubeta]

Kobe: 2009 Finals MVP

Lebron: Playoff exit

I'll take the Finals MVP over being 2nd to Hakeem in Playoff PER :lol

Maybe they will invent a PER trophy soon

Kawhi Leonard 2014 finals MVP lost in finals year before

Kobe 0 points last 2 playoffs

Kawhi is a better playoff performer than kobe

[tpols]

Defense. Kyrie cant play any of it, wiggins is a rookie and will take time.. varejeo can take charges not much else.. and thompson's alright.

Point being cavs will not be as good a defensive team as they were in 09. They probably wont rebound that well either unless you think varejeo/thompson is way better than bosh/birdman.

[yarrak]

Take a look at what LeBron did to that same Magic team dumbass. Kobe won because his team was so much better than Bron's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o4JDxQ0IE8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otYxO3MHV2g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70AUcQ3PzQ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPT6QxoxEZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlz7jItVg24

Game 1 -49/8/6
Game 2-35/4/5
Game 3-41/7/9
Game 4-44/12
Game 5-37/14/12

Empty stats my ass. Seriously how dumb are you? Magic got extremely hot from the 3 and Lebron's teammates couldn't do shit. That's why they lost.

38/8/8 in the ECF against the best defensive team in the league>>>anything Kobe has done in the PO's.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think the Cavs can win 60+ games this season. If it was 09 Lebron, I'd say they'd win over 60 games for sure but he isn't as athletic as his 09 self and his stamina just isn't the same. IMHO 09 Lebron>>Current Lebron. Skill wise current Lebron is better but the athletic ability he had in 2009 was just unbelievable and more than made up for the lack of skill.



Forever Dwight Howard's bitch

His pretty PER and WS/48 had no answer for the mental midget that Kobe destroyed in the Finals

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2731761/kbp1.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jamZf5u5jCw

Lebron: empty stats

Kobe:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t185/abdi_23/kobe4rings.jpg

[ArbitraryWater]

You're insane. Measuring player by rapm ws or any other stat is when you don't have any substance to base your assumptions on.
Kobe got the ring and dominated in the PO's

Beside's, it's quite funny how majority of the top 10 didn't lead their team to the ring

Considering 1/16 teams win in the playoffs, and most greats dont have to do as much lifting on title teams = more balanced production, its not...

4 of the 14 with a 30+ PER won... > 1 of 16

these advanced stats all lead to the same conclusion.. dont be scared of them.

Kobe didn't dominate the finals, though... 43% shooting? Weak sauce

[ImKobe]

bunch of bullshit rambling
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t185/abdi_23/kobe4rings.jpg

[ImKobe]

Considering 1/16 teams win in the playoffs, and most greats dont have to do as much lifting on title teams = more balanced production, its not...

4 of the 14 with a 30+ PER won... > 1 of 16

these advanced stats all lead to the same conclusion.. dont be scared of them.

Kobe didn't dominate the finals, though... 43% shooting? Weak sauce

1st player since MJ to average 30+ppg 5+rpg 7+apg in the Finals doe

[tpols]

Lebron went from

Mo Williams - 17/4

Delonte West - 11/3


to

Dwayne Wade 27/7/5

Chris Bosh 24/11


and his team lost 3 more games...

[SexSymbol]

Considering 1/16 teams win in the playoffs, and most greats dont have to do as much lifting on title teams = more balanced production, its not...

4 of the 14 with a 30+ PER won... > 1 of 16

these advanced stats all lead to the same conclusion.. dont be scared of them.

Kobe didn't dominate the finals, though... 43% shooting? Weak sauce
lol, you literally don't need to be replied to, you own yourself

[ImKobe]

Lebron went from

Mo Williams - 17/4

Delonte West - 11/3


to

Dwayne Wade 27/7/5

Chris Bosh 24/11


and his team lost 3 more games...

But Lebron alone wins 66 games out 82! Wade & Bosh played terribly in the 2011 Finals!

[DatAsh]

They'll say that while his teammates weren't as good, they "compliment" LeBron well and that evens it out, which is laughable.

Why is that laughable? Chemistry is just as important - if not more important - than talent. Lebron had more talent around him this year than whoever you think the Spurs best player was last year, yet the still destroyed the Heat. Chemistry matters...a lot.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe: 2009 Finals MVP

Lebron: Playoff exit

I'll take the Finals MVP over being 2nd to Hakeem in Playoff PER :lol

Maybe they will invent a PER trophy soon

Of course you will take a title over a conference finals exit.. Sadly thats not what this is about. Its about who played better :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Why is that laughable? Chemistry is just as important - if not more important - than talent. Lebron had more talent around him this year than whoever you think the Spurs best player was last year, yet the still destroyed the Heat. Chemistry matters...a lot.

Confusing post.. Spurs chemistry is better than Heat's, no shit genius..

[ArbitraryWater]

1st player since MJ to average 30+ppg 5+rpg 7+apg in the Finals doe

first player to average 30+ ppg, 5.456853 rebounds, 6.76531498 assists, 5 handshakes per game, on a tuesday...

nah, not arbitrary at all, doe

[DatAsh]

Confusing post.. Spurs chemistry is better than Heat's, no shit genius..

That's my point; you think it's laughable to take chemistry into account when evaluating a team, which is laughable.

[bukowski81]

What the hell? :lol

Since when is that the criteria to go by for evaluating supporting cast? :roll:

Hilarious..

LeBron did it without any stars, deal with it.. Kobe would't be able to achieve that in his lifetime. Just facts you need to deal with without asking for 3 point shooting accuracy :roll:

Well if you just look at the numbers as you guys love to do Duncan supporting cast in 03 looks worse and he still won the championship.

[Roundball_Rock]

So you dismiss the 08 Lakers? Kobe putting them on top of the Western Conference before the Gasol trade? Funny how you put Kobe and Wade in the same category when both of them won at least one ring with only one all-star on the roster and they never switched teams to put themselves in a better position to win.

No I don't. I have always pointed out when people try to credit Gasol for the 2008 improvement that the Lakers were in first place without him. Gasol was key in the playoffs and keeping them at the top but he is not the main reason they went from 0.500 in 2006 and 2007 to the top. The 2008 Lakers were a better team overall than the previous three years. Are you arguing that Kobe in 08' was that much better than he was in 2006 and 2007 and that explains the marked improvement in performance?

The Heat dropped off the face of the Earth when Shaq ceased to be an elite player after the 2006 season. Only LeBron restored Wade to relevance. The guy had a 10-41 season. No superstar should ever allow that poor of a record...Let's see what Wade does without LeBron next year.

[ArbitraryWater]

Well if you just look at the numbers as you guys love to do Duncan supporting cast in 03 looks worse and he still won the championship.

Correct..

One of the GOAT runs

[ArbitraryWater]

That's my point; you think it's laughable to take chemistry into account when evaluating a team, which is laughable.

But my post was about supporting cast?

I doubt LeBron can be blamed for the "lack of chemistry"... Especially not put against Kobe, unless you'd want to argue that.

[Meticode]

I'll never get how he won 60 games in Cleveland twice, but only managed that once in Miami
Because Miami knew when they had to save energy and turn it off/on.

[Keno]

that team was absolute trash, how he won 66 games by himself is beyond me.

[DatAsh]

But my post was about supporting cast?

I doubt LeBron can be blamed for the "lack of chemistry"... Especially not put against Kobe, unless you'd want to argue that.

I think you're misunderstanding me. The Cavs had great chemistry. They were a good example of a team with bad talent and great chemistry.

My point was that you were laughing at people for saying team chemistry matters, which seems silly to me.

You can't just ignore everything other than talent when judging a supporting cast, otherwise 2014 Duncan is better than 2014 Lebron - given he went further than Lebron with less talent.

[BrownEye007]

They'll say that while his teammates weren't as good, they "compliment" LeBron well and that evens it out, which is laughable. Why can't they compliment LeBron's game with all-star players? I'm sure that would work, too. If LeBron does wonders with scrubs that does not justify giving him scrubs. Had LeBron played with all-stars and they didn't perform as well then they might have an argument. However, that does not seem to be the case.

You guys are amazing though, for keeping up with the "COMPLIMENTARY CAST!!!" comments... Try it all, every single theory, play it out, but NEVER, EVER, give Lebron the credit he deserves for pulling off historical stuff.. good job :applause:

Edit: Just look at the comment above :roll:

Acting like his team was so special defensively.. :rolleyes:
Mo Williams was an allstar on the Cavs. Sit down fool.

[BrownEye007]

Defense. Kyrie cant play any of it, wiggins is a rookie and will take time.. varejeo can take charges not much else.. and thompson's alright.

Point being cavs will not be as good a defensive team as they were in 09. They probably wont rebound that well either unless you think varejeo/thompson is way better than bosh/birdman.
Verajao/Thompson >>>>> Bosh/Birdman at rebounding.