Stacked? LeBron's teams without him.

[Roundball_Rock]

There has been a lot of talk lately about how good the teams LeBron James has played on are. Let’s look at how they fared when he was out to get a better idea of how good they would have been without him. I will start with 2006, LeBron’s first MVP-caliber and all-NBA first team season. This is not a perfect metric but seeing how teams do without a superstar is at least some real data versus hypothesizing about records minus a particular player. For context, I also will compare LeBron’s teams without him with the teams of other top perimeter players of his era.

LeBron

2006: 47-32 with LeBron, 3-0 without LeBron
2007: 47-31 with LeBron, 3-1 without LeBron
2008: 45-30 with LeBron, 0-7 without LeBron
2009: 66-15 with LeBron, 0-1 without LeBron
2010: 60-16 with LeBron, 1-5 without LeBron

Totals: 265-124 with him, 7-14 without him

265-124 is a winning percentage of 68% and translates to 56 wins over 82 games. 7-14 is a winning percentage of 33% and translates to 27 wins over 82 games. The 7-14 mark is masked by a 6-1 record in 2006 and 2007. After that they went 1-13 without him in the following three seasons.

2011: 57-22 with LeBron, 1-2 without LeBron
2012: 45-17 with LeBron, 1-3 without LeBron
2013: 61-15 with LeBron, 5-1 without LeBron
2014: 52-25 with LeBron, 2-3 without LeBron

Totals: 215-79 with him, 9-9 without him.

215-79 is a winning percentage of 73.1% and translates to 60 wins over 82 games. 9-9 obviously is 50% and means 41 wins over 82 games.

How about comparing him to other top perimeter players of his era? In the interest of time I will look only at cases where they missed at least 5% of the season, or 4 games. I also will exclude years prior to them becoming elite, i.e. 2009 for Durant, like I did with LeBron.

Durant

2011: 52-26 with Durant, 3-1 without him

Kobe

2001: 45-23 with Kobe, 11-3 without him
2004: 48-17 with him, 8-9 without him
2005: 28-38 with him, 6-10 without him
2007: 39-38 with him, 3-2 without him
2010: 51-22 with him, 6-3 without him
2012: 36-22 with him, 5-3 without him
2013: 42-36 with him, 3-1 without him

Totals: 289-196 with him, 42-31 without him.

They had a winning percentage of 59.5% (49 wins over 82 games) with him and a winning percentage of 57.5% without him (47 wins over 82 games). This is skewed heavily by a 11-3 record in 2001 with Shaq. From 2004-2013 in the years listed above his teams went 31-28 without him, a 52.5% winning percentage that translates to 43 wins over a season.

In Kobe’s case I also took out 2014 because, since he played only 6 games, and the team was so bad without him it would skew the overall sample. They were 2-4 (33%) with him and 25-51 (33%) without him). What included it would do is sink the “without him” sample to a misleading level because all that weight would go to the negative side of the ledger. They would have sucked with Kobe as well, although they would have presumably been slightly better with him.

Wade

2005: 56-21 with him, 3-2 without him
2006: 48-27 with him, 4-3 without him
2007: 27-24 with him, 17-14 without him
2010: 45-32 with him, 2-3 without him
2011: 54-22 with him, 4-2 without him
2012: 32-17 with him, 14-3 without him
2013: 55-14 with him, 11-2 without him
2014: 36-18 with him, 18-10 without him

Totals: 353-175 with him, 73-39 without him
From 2011-2014: 177-71 with him, 47-17 without him

They won 66.9% of games with him, which extrapolates to 55 wins over 82 games. Without him they won 65.2% of the time, which would mean 53 wins over 82 games.

During the LeBron era, the Heat won 71.4% of the time with Wade and actually did slightly better, 73.4%, when they were less "stacked" without him.

For Wade I excluded 2008 for the same reason I excluded 2014 for Kobe. In case you are wondering, the Heat went 10-41 with Wade (19.6%) and 5-26 without him (16.1%). The difference between the two percentages is 2.5 wins over 82 games.

Paul

2009: 47-31 with him, 2-2 without him
2010: 23-22 with him, 14-23 without him
2013: 50-20 with him, 6-6 without him
2014: 44-18 with him, 13-7 without him

Totals:164-91 with him, 35-38 without him

Paul’s teams win 64.3% of the time with him but are at 47.9% without him. That is the difference between 53 wins and 39 wins.

It is clear LeBron has a much larger impact on his team than these other great players and his Cleveland teams were trash without him and the Heat went 0.500 in his absence.

[VengefulAngel]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[JT123]

:applause: OP dropping truth bombs in this bitch! :bowdown:
Prepare to be called a fggt though, these Lebron haters don't like it when you bring FACTS into a debate! :oldlol:
They are the same idiots who are trying to call him a front runner for going to a 33 win team. :hammerhead:

[imdaman99]

The fact that you went through all that trouble of researching stats tells me branstans lead very healthy and physically active lives :applause:

[Warfan]

With Miami he had a stacked team every year, maybe besides last season

[Roundball_Rock]

With Miami he had a stacked team every year, maybe besides last season

Stacked?

2011: 57-22 with LeBron, 1-2 without LeBron
2012: 45-17 with LeBron, 1-3 without LeBron
2013: 61-15 with LeBron, 5-1 without LeBron
2014: 52-25 with LeBron, 2-3 without LeBron

Why? Because he played with Wade? The team did slightly better without Wade. :lol 2013 is the one year they were so stacked they actually managed a winning record without him. In 2011, 2012, and 2014 they went 4-8 without LeBron.


Prepare to be called a fggt though, these Lebron haters don't like it when you bring FACTS into a debate!

Yup. I don't understand the denial. LeBron is the GOAT caliber player of this generation. Every generation has 1-2. The 60's had Wilt and Russell. The 70's KAJ. The 80's Magic and Bird. The 90's MJ. The 2000's Shaq. For the 2010's it is LeBron. I don't see why they insist on saying wacky things like he is inferior to Kobe, Durant, and even Wade.


tells me branstans lead very healthy and physically active lives

Owning LeBron haters is a fun follow-up to the gym!

[ThePhantomCreep]

Removed 2004 and 2005 for LeBron

Removed 2014 for Kobe.

Hi agenda!

[RoundMoundOfReb]

They were 2-4 with Kobe this year and 25-51 without him..almost identical win percentage

[JT123]

Removed 2004 and 2005 for LeBron

Removed 2014 for Kobe.

Hi agenda!
Why would he include 2014 when half of LA's roster was out, not just Kobe! :facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

Removed 2004 and 2005 for LeBron

Removed 2014 for Kobe.

Hi agenda!

I think removing those years, especially 2014 makes a lot of sense...

---

OP.... :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Removed 2004 and 2005 for LeBron

Removed 2014 for Kobe.

Hi agenda!

Yeah, I also did not look at Kobe's years prior to 2001 and removed 2008 for Wade. Kobe's teams did 2% better with him during that sample. What does 2014 prove? They won 33% with him and 33% without him. Including that would include 76 games of garbage without him while only including 6 games of garbage with him and skew the overall numbers in a misleading way. Look at the yearly figures. Where is Kobe's Lebron-level impact? Kobe and Wade both added 2%. LeBron is on a completely different level with Paul in between. LeBron is worth 20-25 wins a year. :bowdown:

[Mr Exlax]

Removed 2004 and 2005 for LeBron

Removed 2014 for Kobe.

Hi agenda!

OP needs to add those. I don't too much care about his agenda though. LeBron hasn't played with that many stacked teams. Nobody is debating it.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Why would he include 2014 when half of LA's roster was out, not just Kobe! :facepalm

A mighty convenient time to introduce context. Well done.

Funny how the OP implies that Wade is better than Kobe and Durant in a thread meant to show how unstacked the Heat were overall.

[Roundball_Rock]

Funny how the OP implies that Wade is better than Kobe and Durant in a thread meant to show how unstacked the Heat were overall.

:wtf:

There is no real sample for Durant. I just included him to check that box. Where is it implied Wade is better than Kobe? Their records are similar in this thread. If you said the thread implies Paul is better than them you would have a point--but the facts are what they are. I didn't know what the data would show for the non-LeBron players. If Paul seems to have more impact than them, it is up to fans of Kobe/Wade to explain why when the general view is those two in their prime were better than Paul. Facts are stubborn things, as John Adams once said!

I did mention 2008 for Wade and 2014 for Kobe in the thread so it is not as if I was hiding anything. The Lakers won 33% with or without Kobe in 2014. What is your point? That 2014 shows how immense his impact is?

[Warfan]

Stacked?

2011: 57-22 with LeBron, 1-2 without LeBron
2012: 45-17 with LeBron, 1-3 without LeBron
2013: 61-15 with LeBron, 5-1 without LeBron
2014: 52-25 with LeBron, 2-3 without LeBron

Why? Because he played with Wade? The team did slightly better without Wade. :lol



Yup. I don't understand the denial. LeBron is the GOAT caliber player of this generation. Every generation has 1-2. The 60's had Wilt and Russell. The 70's KAJ. The 80's Magic and Bird. The 90's MJ. The 2000's Shaq. For the 2010's it is LeBron. I don't see why they insist on saying wacky things like he is inferior to Kobe, Durant, and even Wade.



Owning LeBron haters is a fun follow-up to the gym!


Uh yeah...In 2011 him and Wade were basically 1A and 1B with wade outplaying him against Boston and Dallas (and you know what bron did in that series). Then u add another all star in bosh and that team is definitely stacked.

In 2012 wade was still an elite player and played great in the playoffs, and bosh again was great 3rd option. And the heats shooters and role players played great in the finals (battier gm2, chalmers gm4, miller gm5).

2013 is maybe arguable since the rest of the team werent great in the Eastern playoffs. But Wade was still a top 10 player and again bosh was the best 3rd option in the league. In the finals chalmers outscored lebron in their game 2 win, wade was the best player in the crucial game 4 of the series which they won, wade was better than him in game 5 too in a loss. In game 6 chalmers had 20 points and helped keep the team afloat when bron was bricking everything up until the 4th, then bosh and ray bail him out. And then Wade had a great game 7, same with battier who hit 6 threes and chalmers who put in 14 of his own points aswell.

A 5 game sample of regular season games doesnt mean shit (and u didnt show how good the teams were that they played too, or the fact that wade or bosh might have been out in a few of those games too). Trust me the Heat wouldnt be better without Wade, get lebrons cawk out of your mouth Bulls fan :coleman:

[dubeta]

im not even surprised lebron is the most impactful player in nba history

[guy]

There has been a lot of talk lately about how good the teams LeBron James has played on are. Let’s look at how they fared when he was out to get a better idea of how good they would have been without him. I will start with 2006, LeBron’s first MVP-caliber and all-NBA first team season. This is not a perfect metric but seeing how teams do without a superstar is at least some real data versus hypothesizing about records minus a particular player. For context, I also will compare LeBron’s teams without him with the teams of other top perimeter players of his era.

LeBron

2006: 47-32 with LeBron, 3-0 without LeBron
2007: 47-31 with LeBron, 3-1 without LeBron
2008: 45-30 with LeBron, 0-7 without LeBron


Wow. So you're telling me that the Cavs went from an 82-0 team without him (pace adjusted) to an 0-82 team without him (pace adjusted) from 2006 to 2008? Crazy :eek:

[guy]

The fact that you went through all that trouble of researching stats tells me branstans lead very healthy and physically active lives :applause:

Thankfully he does get free time from the documentary he's been working on for the past 5 years of the 1994 Chicago Bulls' inspiring run to the 2nd round :rockon:

[JohnFreeman]

Good thread :applause:

[magnax1]

So.... basically lebron was almost never injured? Great to know...
There is no argument that the heat teams werent stacked every year except his last.

[SouBeachTalents]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]There has been a lot of talk lately about how good the teams LeBron James has played on are. Let

[Keno]

great thread. lmao at kobe's overrated ass impact, almost the same win percentage without him than with him.

[Droid101]

So... what happened there between 2008 and 2009? I guess LeBron just became some kind of superhero?

Or was it that they finally brought in someone to hit kick-out threes for him finally? Someone who shot the three at 44% on the season?

Nah, that couldn't have had anything to do with it.

[Droid101]

I'm just curious, why did you leave out a bunch of years for Kobe, and '09 for Wade?
Because he's a pathetic, agenda-driven troll who should probably be ignored by everyone.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm just curious, why did you leave out a bunch of years for Kobe, and '09 for Wade?

Few players actually play 82 games in a given year. Often players will miss a game or two over the course of a season. So I settled on counting years where at least 4 games were missed since that equals 5% of the season. I also threw out years where the players not elite early in their careers. This largely was to remove Kobe's early years from the equation but it also makes sense. What the Cavs did in 2004 or Lakers in 1997 or Heat in 2004 tell us little about these players. So I started the clock on when they became MVP-caliber/elite players. Wade played 79 games in 2009--a career high. Wade is very unusual because he gets hurt every year, and often misses a fair amount of time, so practically all his years are listed here. Regarding Kobe, he played 82 games in 2003, 2008, 2009 and 2011. He played 80 in 2002, 2006.

The thing about the Heat being stacked is they had no depth in 2011. That was the weakness people pointed to and why some thought the Bulls would beat them in the ECF. Depth matters, as the Spurs proved. After 2011 Wade and Bosh declined. In 2012 the Heat had a tough ECSF and a 7 game ECF. In 2013 they had a 7 game ECF. If they were the most stacked team of all-time you would think they would be dominating their way through the East...Look at the 90's Bulls' ECF's in the years they won: 4, 6, 6, 4, 5, 7. That is what a dominant team does.


im not even surprised lebron is the most impactful player in nba history

He definitely has a case. How many other players from history could be placed with random players and have 50 wins and the second round as the floor? There definitely is no player among today's generation who has that kind of impact.


So.... basically lebron was almost never injured? Great to know...

Yeah. That is one key component of being a franchise player and LeBron is very durable. That is, incidentally, one problem with Wade and ranking him all-time. Look at how much time he misses every season...

I had an idea what the data would show for LeBron but I had no idea what it would show for Kobe, Wade, Paul, and Durant. Paul actually comes off the best by the measure out of Kobe, Wade. Durant has never missed enough time to generate such data. I thought about including some others, i.e. Carmelo or Westbrook, but figured I would stop with this group because they have been consensus top 5 for several seasons. I also thought about Rose, but he has missed so much time his impact is obvious, and I previously had done a thread on the subject of Rose's impact.

[nathanjizzle]

how can you compare cleveland objectively though? that team with lebron competed for 4 years, then their leader left, motivation and will has to be a factor in clevelands downfall and not just talent.

[Roundball_Rock]

So... what happened there between 2008 and 2009? I guess LeBron just became some kind of superhero?


He took his game to another level in 2009. 2009 was his first MVP season and the first year LeBron was the best player in the league. Look at his MVP finishes:

2004-2008: 9th, 6th, 2nd, 5th, 4th
2009-2014: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 2nd

LeBron was in his sixth season in 2009. Kobe, another player from high school, had his first top 3-5 season in his fifth season.

[Droid101]

He took his game to another level in 2009. 2009 was his first MVP season and the first year LeBron was the best player in the league. Look at his MVP finishes:

2004-2008: 9th, 6th, 2nd, 5th, 4th
2009-2014: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 2nd

LeBron was in his sixth season in 2009. Kobe, another player from high school, had his first top 3-5 season in his fifth season.
No he didn't. His scoring actually went down. He got more of the media-hype mvp votes because his team had more wins. Or are you all of a sudden going to say Derrick Rose was an awesome MVP choice? In fact, in any other thread, I'm sure you'd be first in line saying Kobe didn't deserve it in 2008 and it should have been LeBron's. Clown.

You're a huge, idiotic agenda-driven troll. It's really sad, actually.

[Roundball_Rock]

No he didn't. His scoring actually went down.

2004-2008: 9th, 6th, 2nd, 5th, 4th
2009-2014: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 2nd

:roll: at thinking 2008 LeBron was as good as 2009 LeBron. Did you even watch basketball back then? It is no coincidence 2009 was the first year LeBron was considered the best player in the game.


Or are you all of a sudden going to say Derrick Rose was an awesome MVP choice?

I have always said that.


In fact, in any other thread, I'm sure you'd be first in line saying Kobe didn't deserve it in 2008 and it should have been LeBron's.

When did I say that? I've never commented on the 2008 MVP. It was fair. The legitimate candidates were Kobe, Paul, KG. Who has argued LeBron should have won that year? When have I diminished Kobe's MVP? My posting has generally been very pro-Kobe over the years.

You are a moron who fails to grasp what people actually think and are saying. :roll:

[Droid101]

2004-2008: 9th, 6th, 2nd, 5th, 4th
2009-2014: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 2nd

:roll: at thinking 2008 LeBron was as good as 2009 LeBron. Did you even watch basketball back then? It is no coincidence 2009 was the first year LeBron was considered the best player in the game.
Did your mom buy you a new LeBron Cavs jersey this year, or did you just dust off your old one from 2009?

[Roundball_Rock]

Did your mom buy you a new LeBron Cavs jersey this year, or did you just dust off your old one from 2009?

:lol Again, typically, another moronic post from you. I am not even a Cavs/Heat fan.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

lol 2009 LeBron >>> 2008 LeBron...makes me think Droid didn't start watching ball until very recently...

[Warfan]

Thanks for responding to my post 'LeBronsRoundballs_C0ck' :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

lol 2009 LeBron >>> 2008 LeBron...makes me think Droid didn't start watching ball until very recently...

Exactly. Anyone who watched basketball back then knows it was the first year LeBron became the best player. In 2008 he was not even a strong MVP candidate. Kobe, Paul and KG were the only ones with a legitimate chance of winning. Droid probably is a 15 year old. Look at his posting. He has trouble grasping what people post and also struggles to articulate anything even semi-coherent.

The MVP voting speaks for itself:

2004-2008: 9th, 6th, 2nd, 5th, 4th
2009-2014: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 2nd

2009 was the turning point. Prior to that he had only one top 3 finish. Since then he has been top 3 every year, including winning 4 MVP's in a 5 year span.

[livinglegend]

GOAT poster gonna GOAT :applause: :applause: :applause:
Best thread in a long long time! Pure facts!

[magnax1]

That is, incidentally, one problem with Wade and ranking him all-time. Look at how much time he misses every season...
It's affected in him 2 playoffs, and one he should've been a champion regardless. It doesn't make it any harder to rank him when it's as clear cut as that.


Few players actually play 82 games in a given year. Often players will miss a game or two over the course of a season. So I settled on counting years where at least 4 games were missed since that equals 5% of the season.
That's just an unnecessary distinction. There's no reason to show seasons with 4 games vs 3 since both are nonexistant in terms of valuable sample size. Hell over Kobe's whole 17 or whatever year career you hardly get a real sample size. Especially considering it's heavily weighted towards years where he was either playing with the best center in decades at his peak, or the heavy fluctuations the 04 team felt (mostly based on Karl Malone's health), or best case scenario one of his worst seasons since 00. This last season alone would probably be worth much more in terms of valuable data than the rest of his career combined.


What the Cavs did in 2004 or Lakers in 1997 or Heat in 2004 tell us little about these players.
Neither does Wade post 11 when he was no longer the central offensive piece or Kobe when he played with the most dominant center in decades. In fact, all together piecing together stretches where players miss something like 5 games tells you pretty much nothing. This is just a poor idea with too many variables thrown in to tell you anything valuable.


The thing about the Heat being stacked is they had no depth in 2011. That was the weakness people pointed to and why some thought the Bulls would beat them in the ECF.
That might be worth pointing out if thats why they lost. It clearly wasn't however.

[BrownEye007]

how can you compare cleveland objectively though? that team with lebron competed for 4 years, then their leader left, motivation and will has to be a factor in clevelands downfall and not just talent.
There was also about 5 other key players from the 10' squad that left when LeBron did...

[LeBird]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Roundball_Rock again.


:applause:

[GimmeThat]

I won't get into the early Heat with Lebron, because they had just acquired him.

But I think this shows how flawed the Cavs had managed to build around Lebron with his later stay there. I think their philosophy had gone from building a team, and think of Lebron as the superstar that will get us over the hump, into Lebron is a once in a however long superstar, we should forget about the team concept, and give him pieces that our superstar can utilize whenever he needs or sees a mismatch on court.

Interesting enough, I think the latter part is how the Heat coaching staff utilized in terms of strategy. They essentially created a new team basketball formula based on Lebron with replaceble players by trying to develope through the X's O's.

They really should have 3peated had they been able to keep a few role players here and there. I am still somewhat impressed by Spo's ability to come up with Lebron ball and winning 2 championships in the process of doing so.

[Meticode]

Oh look, another LeBron thread. **** me.

[tpols]

Lebron makes bad teams great.. regular season wise. He can carry til the pressure arrives.

Lebron makes already good teams really good and potential champions.. but its 50/50 whether he chokes.. from what I've seen.

[chazzy]

I am not even a Cavs/Heat fan.
It seems you're a fan of whoever can be perceived as a Jordan successor. I remember your Kobe phase :lol

[GODbe]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Jacks3]

Heat only won 54 games this year.

Next season they'll win around 48-50.

There you have it, folks. Proof that LBJ is only worth 4-6 wins.

[Meticode]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
Post of the year right here. Four, not one, not two, not three, but four ****ing applause smilies. Holy shit, breaking molds.

[Hands of Iron]

Lebron makes bad teams great.. regular season wise. He can carry til the pressure arrives.

Lebron makes already good teams really good and potential champions.. but its 50/50 whether he chokes.. from what I've seen.

Is it really 50/50 though? I think you're a better poster than that. The 2011 Finals will never be fully lived down and it's especially strange considering he was burying the Celtics and Bulls with late game daggers in the two series prior to that but I mean, what else really?

Did he 'choke' putting up 39/8/8 on 59% TS against the Orlando Magic in the '09 ECF? Or choke in Game 7 against the Celtics in '08 with 45/6/5? Choke in Game 6 facing elimination against the Celtics in '12 with 45/15/5? Choke against San Antonio Game 7 in '13 with 37/12 whilst putting them away in crunch time? Did he honestly choke in the game before that or would the Heat actually of lost by double digits if he doesn't erupt for 20+ in the 4th+OT? Did he choke this year or did virtually nobody else on his team bother to show up in the Finals?

I guess you could point out Game 5 against Boston in 2010, but even then it wasn't as if he hadn't already wiped the floor with them twice in that series for two wins. Looked more disgusted with his teammates and what was around him than anything else... Not the first time I seen that, cept it was somebody else and they were blowing a 3-1 series lead.

Who the hell chokes 50/50 yet puts up 33/11/7 59% TS in elimination games over a seven year span? I'm not trying to get at you, I'm seriously asking. Wilt Chamberlain maybe? :lol Ah except Lebron actually could've inflated those numbers in a major way, honestly. That's what people would have called it in Game 5 this year, but instead he took himself out in a lost cause so he quit instead. He's either protecting his FG% or he's being too ball dominant. He's either statpadding or quitting. It's either one or the other, period. Allegedly.

Look at Lebron almost casually dropping 45 on an all-time great defense in Game 7 here:

http://youtu.be/VzeIvW9ll_4

Looks about to crumble at any second there. This was actually a horrendous, horrendous series for him in terms of shooting. Crazy how it didn't crush his spirits. How the fvck didn't he quit?! How did he average 37 PPG over the last three games?! He actually missed a 3 late that would've cut the lead to 2 and that isn't in the clip, but hey, what the fvck he went for it.

I honestly think the man is the most unfairly criticized individual in the history of the game. Or close to it.

[LeBird]

I honestly think the man is the most unfairly criticized individual in the history of the game. Or close to it.

You can chalk it down to the stans that fear him overtaking their heroes.

[raprap]

OP :applause:

[Warfan]

***

I honestly think the man is the most unfairly criticized individual in the history of the game. Or close to it.

Good post. Im not a fan of lebron at all, but i can agree with this. Not to say he hasnt brought a fair share of hate upon himself, but some people are really deluded and cant objectively evaluate his game and what he has done so far in his career. And if im being honest, he might just be the 2nd best player ive seen the past 25 years...

[knicksman]

so we gonna act like cle isnt assured of first round picks. Only idiots wouldnt see it. LOL 2 1st picks in 4 yrs with 1% chance. So its obvious that cle was tanking so it wouldnt be obvious that they are rigging it for them.

And oh, lebron has 2 superstars so stop the excuses already. They lost while kobe won same amount of rings with lesser help. Thats how overrated bran. Only idiots wouldnt see it. SAme idiots who think AI is better than miller because of his all around game.

[Dresta]

Stacked?

2011: 57-22 with LeBron, 1-2 without LeBron
2012: 45-17 with LeBron, 1-3 without LeBron
2013: 61-15 with LeBron, 5-1 without LeBron
2014: 52-25 with LeBron, 2-3 without LeBron

Why? Because he played with Wade? The team did slightly better without Wade. :lol 2013 is the one year they were so stacked they actually managed a winning record without him. In 2011, 2012, and 2014 they went 4-8 without LeBron.

Yup. I don't understand the denial. LeBron is the GOAT caliber player of this generation. Every generation has 1-2. The 60's had Wilt and Russell. The 70's KAJ. The 80's Magic and Bird. The 90's MJ. The 2000's Shaq. For the 2010's it is LeBron. I don't see why they insist on saying wacky things like he is inferior to Kobe, Durant, and even Wade.

Owning LeBron haters is a fun follow-up to the gym!
You are a retard. Are you not aware that those sample sizes are minuscule, and that one can not make sweeping judgements from them as you are doing? For example, the 3 'losses' without Lebron in 2012, all came at the end of the season, without Bosh & Wade also:

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=320426027
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=320424002
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=320421014

How do those games show us anything about Lebron exactly?

Same thing for the 2013-14 season:

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400490098
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=400490079

Miami weren't trying to win these games. In the games Bosh and Wade played they were 2-1 in 2013-14. In the games they both played (excluding 2010/11 season as the team was absurdly top-heavy that year), and Lebron didn't, Miami were actually 8-2.

[B-hoop]

Dresta as always bringing the ether. Watch how the stans won't acknowledge his post.

[Roundball_Rock]

It seems you're a fan of whoever can be perceived as a Jordan successor. I remember your Kobe phase :lol

I've been a Chicago Bulls fan for two decades now. :lol I was never a Kobe stan. Only MJ stans claimed I was--the same people who now call me a LeBron stan and a fake Bulls fan. I have always been generally pro-Kobe--still am--in my posts but anyone who paid attention should have noticed I always take the pro-Shaq view when it comes to Kobe/Shaq. That screams closet Kobe stan? I also was pro-LeBron in 2009 and 2010; I turned on him after "The Decision" until 2013 when I got over it. I also am a fan of Amare and was clashing with Laker fans over him vs. Bynum when they were contesting an all-star spot. The same people who allegedly was a fellow stan with. People are too complex to boil down to simplistic camps like "LeBron", "Kobe", "MJ". Good back at look at any threads from past years. My posting history does not fit neatly into any of those boxes. I am a Bulls fan who can be called a Pippen, Rose, and Shaq stan who also roots for LeBron and Amare to a lesser extent. Kobe? I like and respect him but don't consider myself a fan of him.


Is it really 50/50 though? I think you're a better poster than that. The 2011 Finals will never be fully lived down and it's especially strange considering he was burying the Celtics and Bulls with late game daggers in the two series prior to that but I mean, what else really?

Did he 'choke' putting up 39/8/8 on 59% TS against the Orlando Magic in the '09 ECF? Or choke in Game 7 against the Celtics in '08 with 45/6/5? Choke in Game 6 facing elimination against the Celtics in '12 with 45/15/5? Choke against San Antonio Game 7 in '13 with 37/12 whilst putting them away in crunch time? Did he honestly choke in the game before that or would the Heat actually of lost by double digits if he doesn't erupt for 20+ in the 4th+OT? Did he choke this year or did virtually nobody else on his team bother to show up in the Finals?

I guess you could point out Game 5 against Boston in 2010, but even then it wasn't as if he hadn't already wiped the floor with them twice in that series for two wins. Looked more disgusted with his teammates and what was around him than anything else... Not the first time I seen that, cept it was somebody else and they were blowing a 3-1 series lead.

Who the hell chokes 50/50 yet puts up 33/11/7 59% TS in elimination games over a seven year span? I'm not trying to get at you, I'm seriously asking. Wilt Chamberlain maybe? Ah except Lebron actually could've inflated those numbers in a major way, honestly. That's what people would have called it in Game 5 this year, but instead he took himself out in a lost cause so he quit instead. He's either protecting his FG% or he's being too ball dominant. He's either statpadding or quitting. It's either one or the other, period. Allegedly.

Look at Lebron almost casually dropping 45 on an all-time great defense in Game 7 here:

http://youtu.be/VzeIvW9ll_4

Looks about to crumble at any second there. This was actually a horrendous, horrendous series for him in terms of shooting. Crazy how it didn't crush his spirits. How the fvck didn't he quit?! How did he average 37 PPG over the last three games?! He actually missed a 3 late that would've cut the lead to 2 and that isn't in the clip, but hey, what the fvck he went for it.

I honestly think the man is the most unfairly criticized individual in the history of the game. Or close to it.

:bowdown:


You can chalk it down to the stans that fear him overtaking their heroes.

Exactly.


And oh, lebron has 2 superstars so stop the excuses already

Superstars who will be lucky to get the 4th seed next year? :roll:


Are you not aware that those sample sizes are minuscule, and that one can not make sweeping judgements from them as you are doing?

What sweeping judgments are being made? There were qualifiers in the OP. The OP consisted of raw data. It is up to individuals, on a discussion board, to discuss their interpretation of the data. There is nothing definitive about that data concerning LeBron since the sample is so small. It is evidence, but suggestive, not dispositive evidence.

[B-hoop]

What sweeping judgments are being made? There were qualifiers in the OP. The OP consisted of raw data. It is up to individuals, on a discussion board, to discuss their interpretation of the data. There is nothing definitive about that data concerning LeBron since the sample is so small. It is evidence, but suggestive, not dispositive evidence.

Why didn't you quote the rest of his post? Like where he showed how the games the Heat lost when Lebron wasn't playing also didn't have Wade and Bosh playing?

Oh right, it goes against your agenda, my bad.

[GimmeThat]

I'm biased.

but lets start counting playoff wins instead.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why didn't you quote the rest of his post? Like where he showed how the games the Heat lost when Lebron wasn't playing also didn't have Wade and Bosh playing?

Oh right, it goes against your agenda, my bad.

It isn't really relevant. So he pointed to a couple of games where Bosh did not play. And? There is a 39 game sample of LeBron being out and the trend is clear, irrespective of a game here and there. The trend will be confirmed next year when Miami slips.

I should, to be fair, give him credit for researching that. What I posted was a conversation starter. It was a message board post, not a chapter in a book. It was not intended to be the definitive post and it always is good to get additional insight from fans of the team in question who have greater insight. I am not and was not a Heat fan.


but lets start counting playoff wins instead.

Has LeBron ever missed a game in the playoffs?

[guy]

What sweeping judgments are being made? There were qualifiers in the OP. The OP consisted of raw data. It is up to individuals, on a discussion board, to discuss their interpretation of the data. There is nothing definitive about that data concerning LeBron since the sample is so small. It is evidence, but suggestive, not dispositive evidence.

But if someone were to interpret that data, how else would you expect them to interpret it? They can either be smart enough to realize that that sample is garbage due to its size or go with your logic that it actually means something significant. If the Heat went 1-3 without him in one season, and someone attempts to interpret it, how else would they interpret it other then they were a bad team without him?

[B-hoop]

But if someone were to interpret that data, how else would you expect them to interpret it? They can either be smart enough to realize that that sample is garbage due to its size or go with your logic that it actually means something significant. If the Heat went 1-3 without him in one season, and someone attempts to interpret it, how else would they interpret it other then they were a bad team without him?

Specially when the person doesn't know that neither Wade nor Bosh played those 3 games they lost too..

[Roundball_Rock]

It is evidence, but suggestive, not dispositive evidence. 1-3 is a bad example. That is a very small sample and in a game here and there the dominant Bosh did not play as well. Still, we have a total of 39 games over the years where LeBron did not play and his teams are 16-23. Wade and Paul provide stronger samples--and they don't show the same implied impact as LeBron. Regarding the Heat, we will get a real world showing about how great they are absent LeBron next year.

The thing is, and this is why LeBron haters are mad, is every data point that we have suggests LeBron has an impact on the win-loss column at a GOAT-caliber level and an impact that no contemporary of his can match. Wade, Kobe both had three seasons with scrubs. The results? They missed the playoffs in one season and scratched and clawed to get past 0.500 in two--and this was their peak versions. :lol at LeBron haters clinging to 3 games where Bosh and Wade also did not play (Wade played in the 2014 games he linked to) and ignoring the 39 game total.

Like I said, we will see the Heat for a full season without LeBron and with an all-star caliber replacement for LeBron. Let's see how they fare...

[B-hoop]

2011: 57-22 with LeBron, 1-2 without LeBron
2012: 45-17 with LeBron, 1-3 without LeBron
2013: 61-15 with LeBron, 5-1 without LeBron
2014: 52-25 with LeBron, 2-3 without LeBron

These were your results for the Heat without Lebron. If you take away the 5 losses where Lebron and Bosh or Lebron, Bosh and Wade did not play its a 9-4 result. If you use your biased results its 9-9.

Now your whole point was showing how the heat without Lebron was a 50% win and with Lebron it was a 73% win team.

When actually its a 73% team with Lebron and Bosh or Lebron, Wade and Bosh and a 69% when its a Wade and Bosh team.

Kinda of a big difference don't you think?

But yea sure, just keep saying how the Heat was all Lebron.

[GimmeThat]

Has LeBron ever missed a game in the playoffs?

so I guess the Cavs teams weren't stacked?

[guy]

It is evidence, but suggestive, not dispositive evidence. 1-3 is a bad example. That is a very small sample and in a game here and there the dominant Bosh did not play as well. Still, we have a total of 39 games over the years where LeBron did not play and his teams are 16-23. Wade and Paul provide stronger samples--and they don't show the same implied impact as LeBron. Regarding the Heat, we will get a real world showing about how great they are absent LeBron next year.

The thing is, and this is why LeBron haters are mad, is every data point that we have suggests LeBron has an impact on the win-loss column at a GOAT-caliber level and an impact that no contemporary of his can match. Wade, Kobe both had three seasons with scrubs. The results? They missed the playoffs in one season and scratched and clawed to get past 0.500 in two--and this was their peak versions. :lol at LeBron haters clinging to 3 games where Bosh and Wade also did not play and ignoring the 39 game total.

The Heat record adds up to only 18 games and he missed most of those games inconsistently (missed a game here and there, not like he was ever out for a considerable). Randomly taking that important player off a team who rarely ever misses games will throw chemistry off and how his teammates approach the game in general. In some cases it might not matter (teams sometimes galvanize and come together when a superstar is out), in some cases it does, it really depends on the mental makeup and approach of the team in that situation but it really doesn't mean much when it comes to how his teammates play when the superstar IS playing. Seriously, am I supposed to believe that Heat team in the weak Eastern Conference is only a .500 team without Lebron? :oldlol:

[guy]

2011: 57-22 with LeBron, 1-2 without LeBron
2012: 45-17 with LeBron, 1-3 without LeBron
2013: 61-15 with LeBron, 5-1 without LeBron
2014: 52-25 with LeBron, 2-3 without LeBron

These were your results for the Heat without Lebron. If you take away the 5 losses where Lebron and Bosh or Lebron, Bosh and Wade did not play its a 9-4 result. If you use your biased results its 9-9.

Now your whole point was showing how the heat without Lebron was a 50% win and with Lebron it was a 73% win team.

When actually its a 73% team with Lebron and Bosh or Lebron, Wade and Bosh and a 69% when its a Wade and Bosh team.

Kinda of a big difference don't you think?

But yea sure, just keep saying how the Heat was all Lebron.

There's this too :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

How much does the absence of just one of the three superstars matter?

2014

Heat with LeBron/Bosh, no Wade: 14-9
Heat with Wade/Bosh, no LeBron: 2-2

2013

Heat with LeBron/Bosh, no Wade: 5-1
Heat with Wade/Bosh, no LeBron: N/A

And for kicks, here is their record with only LeBron among the "Big 3": 2-0. Bosh went 1-0 without LeBron and Wade.

2012

Heat with LeBron/Bosh, no Wade: 12-3
Heat with Wade/Bosh, no LeBron: N/A

And for kicks, here is their record with only LeBron among the "Big 3": 2-0. Wade went 0-2 without LeBron and Bosh. Bosh went 1-0 without them.

2011

Heat with LeBron/Bosh, no Wade: 3-2
Heat with Wade/Bosh, no LeBron: 0-2

And for kicks, here is their record with only LeBron among the "Big 3": 2-0.

Totals

Heat with LeBron/Bosh, no Wade: 34-15 (69%)
Heat with Wade/Bosh, no LeBron: 2-4 (33%)
Heat with only LeBron: 6-0 (100%)
Heat with only Wade: 0-2

But let’s post a few boxscores with one missing and act as if it means much. :lol


Seriously, am I supposed to believe that Heat team in the weak Eastern Conference is only a .500 team without Lebron?

Prior to the Deng signing the consensus here was the Heat were a 40-45 win team without LeBron, with Bosh and Wade. :confusedshrug:

[riseagainst]

can you do a list like this in the playoffs?

Warmest Regards,

riseagainst

[Warfan]

Are you gonna respond to my post on Page 1?? Or are you just gonna cling to a couple regular season games over 4 years??

If you honestly don't think the Heat were stacked atleast for the first 2 years then you're a complete moron

[guy]

Prior to the Deng signing the consensus here was the Heat were a 40-45 win team without LeBron, with Bosh and Wade. :confusedshrug:

Well I didn't believe that, but even if that was the case, has Wade been the same player from 2011-now and will remain the same player?

[Roundball_Rock]

Are you gonna respond to my post on Page 1?? Or are you just gonna cling to a couple regular seasons over 4 years??

If you honestly don't think the Heat were stacked atleast for the first 2 years then you're a complete moron

I did respond:


The thing about the Heat being stacked is they had no depth in 2011. That was the weakness people pointed to and why some thought the Bulls would beat them in the ECF. Depth matters, as the Spurs proved. After 2011 Wade and Bosh declined. In 2012 the Heat had a tough ECSF and a 7 game ECF. In 2013 they had a 7 game ECF. If they were the most stacked team of all-time you would think they would be dominating their way through the East...Look at the 90's Bulls' ECF's in the years they won: 4, 6, 6, 4, 5, 7. That is what a dominant team does.


To clarify, the Heat are "stacked" but in the sense of being one of the most talented teams in the league. The notion that they are the most stacked team of all-time is laughable and they are not necessarily more stacked than other top teams. The Clippers, Rockets, Thunder are three teams off the top of my head from last year who had more talent. Yeah, the Heat were very talented but it is myth that their talent level>>>>any other teams. Look at who they faced in the Finals: the Spurs dynasty twice, the Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka Thunder, and the perennial 50+ win Dirk Mavs. How about the ECF? The Rose/Noah/Deng Bulls, the "Big 4" Celtics.

That is true, guy, but LeBron detractors make no distinction between 2011 Wade and the consistently declining Wade in subsequent years. They, to diminish LeBron, act as if Wade remained at that great level in the following years. By 2014 he was a generic all-star. Bosh declined as well. Yet we kept hearing about "three superstars" for four years.

[tmacattack33]

I highly doubt anyone said his 2005-2010 Cleveland team was stacked.

Now his 2011-2014 Miami team? Yes, people said they were stacked. And they were their first 2 or 3 years when Wade was still a super-star. In the 2012 playoffs though, they certainly weren't stacked with Chris Bosh out.

[Jasi]

If there is a conclusion that I can derive from the data presented in this thread, it's that the teams where LeBron played had suspect coaching.

[Warfan]

The thing about the Heat being stacked is they had no depth in 2011. That was the weakness people pointed to and why some thought the Bulls would beat them in the ECF.

The Heat's depth wasn't much of an issue up until the finals was it? They lost 2 games combined to the 56 win Celtics and the 62 win Bulls, the 2 best defenses in the league. 2 superstars and an elite PF taking turns and just running train over some very good teams. If LeBron doesn't disappear in the 4th, doesn't get outscored by Terry the whole series and scores more than 8 points in game 4 the Heat win the series. As for the depth, that's what happens when u team up with a top 3 and top 15 player in the league, even if they're top heavy that team should completely run over teams, which they did until LeBron decided to not show up in the finals.



After 2011 Wade and Bosh declined. In 2012 the Heat had a tough ECSF and a 7 game ECF. In 2013 they had a 7 game ECF. If they were the most stacked team of all-time you would think they would be dominating their way through the East...Look at the 90's Bulls' ECF's in the years they won: 4, 6, 6, 4, 5, 7. That is what a dominant team does.

Let me make it clear, i don't think they're the most stacked team ever. That's just plain idiotic and people that say that are trolling. But im not arguing that they are, im saying they were stacked for the first 3 years.


Wade was still an elite player and played great in the playoffs in 2012. 23/5/4 and a couple great performances like these (more where these came from):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBeokdGfujA (22 in the 2nd half)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8CWUZIdwWQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VovlaSMsbGY :eek: (closeout game)
26/6/3 for the series

Against the Celtics he averaged 21.5/6/5 and in the finals 23/6/5. Yes he may have declined, but he played great and had some huge games. I already talked about how role players stepped up and had big games in both 2012 and 2013. And that bosh was probably the best 3rd option in the league as well. So im not gonna list all those games from the other players again




To clarify, the Heat are "stacked" but in the sense of being one of the most talented teams in the league. The notion that they are the most stacked team of all-time is laughable and they are not necessarily more stacked than other top teams. The Clippers, Rockets, Thunder are three teams off the top of my head from last year who had more talent. Yeah, the Heat were very talented but it is myth that their talent level>>>>any other teams. Look at who they faced in the Finals: the Spurs dynasty twice, the Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka Thunder, and the perennial 50+ win Dirk Mavs. How about the ECF? The Rose/Noah/Deng Bulls, the "Big 4" Celtics.

I didn't claim the Heat were stacked last year, wade declined significantly more, the role players were older and not as capable and Bosh seemed to be too used to his role as a spot up shooter to take over games or play well consistently. I don't see how this is relevant to what I said though, since I agree that they weren't stacked last year and that the heat aren't the most stacked team ever.


That is true, guy, but LeBron detractors make no distinction between 2011 Wade and the consistently declining Wade in subsequent years. They, to diminish LeBron, act as if Wade remained at that great level in the following years. In 2014 he was a generic all-star. Bosh declined as well. Yet we kept hearing about "three superstars" for four years.

I don't agree with this, so again, irrelevant. Bosh was never a superstar, he was a top 15 player when he joined wade & bron and was a great 3rd option. Wade was a superstar the first 2 years and played like one in the reg season of 2013, struggled a bit in the playoffs but had a good finals and had some big games.

[B-hoop]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Totals

Heat with LeBron/Bosh, no Wade: 34-15 (69%)
Heat with Wade/Bosh, no LeBron: 2-4 (33%)
Heat with only LeBron: 6-0 (100%)
Heat with only Wade: 0-2
Heat with only Bosh: 2-0

But let

[Roundball_Rock]

The OP is a response to people claiming 1) the Heat were all-time stacked 2) people claiming the Cavs were a good team due to defense.


The Heat's depth wasn't much of an issue up until the finals was it?

It was in 2012 and 2013 when deeper teams gave them trouble in the ECF both years and the ECSF as well in 12'. The 11' Heat were the most talented at the top, but the 13' Heat were the best version of the Heat. Keep in mind that was the only year the Heat were the #1 seed.

Yeah, Wade remained elite in 2012 and 2013. Was he substantially better than the "#2's" on other championship teams, though? What I disagree with is the claim that the Heat were stacked to an unprecedented degree. Wade in 11' was as good as the best "sidekicks" of all-time but Wade in 12' and 13' resembled the typical "#2" on a championship team. Look at the type of players we are talking about: Gasol, Pierce, Parker, Kobe, D. Robinson, Pippen, Worthy, McHale, Dumars, Magic, Drexler. 11' Wade was as good as the best versions of the best of these players but 2012 and 2013 Wade would not stick out from that group. What LeBron detractors do is act as if leBron had 2009 Wade with him his entire time in Miami.


And that bosh was probably the best 3rd option in the league as well.

Was he? He had 14/8 in the 12' playoffs, 12/7 in 13', and 15/6 in 14'. How is this, as many allege (not you), unprecedented help? Any championship team will get at least that much production from its third best player; many would get significantly more production.


Bosh was never a superstar, he was a top 15 player when he joined wade & bron and was a great 3rd option. Wade was a superstar the first 2 years and played like one in the reg season of 2013, struggled a bit in the playoffs but had a good finals and had some big games.

Agreed.

[Ne 1]

The Heat's depth wasn't much of an issue up until the finals was it? They lost 2 games combined to the 56 win Celtics and the 62 win Bulls, the 2 best defenses in the league. 2 superstars and an elite PF taking turns and just running train over some very good teams. If LeBron doesn't disappear in the 4th, doesn't get outscored by Terry the whole series and scores more than 8 points in game 4 the Heat win the series. As for the depth, that's what happens when u team up with a top 3 and top 15 player in the league, even if they're top heavy that team should completely run over teams, which they did until LeBron decided to not show up in the finals.




Let me make it clear, i don't think they're the most stacked team ever. That's just plain idiotic and people that say that are trolling. But im not arguing that they are, im saying they were stacked for the first 3 years.


Wade was still an elite player and played great in the playoffs in 2012. 23/5/4 and a couple great performances like these (more where these came from):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBeokdGfujA (22 in the 2nd half)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8CWUZIdwWQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VovlaSMsbGY :eek: (closeout game)
26/6/3 for the series

Against the Celtics he averaged 21.5/6/5 and in the finals 23/6/5. Yes he may have declined, but he played great and had some huge games. I already talked about how role players stepped up and had big games in both 2012 and 2013. And that bosh was probably the best 3rd option in the league as well. So im not gonna list all those games from the other players again


.

I didn't claim the Heat were stacked last year, wade declined significantly more, the role players were older and not as capable and Bosh seemed to be too used to his role as a spot up shooter to take over games or play well consistently. I don't see how this is relevant to what I said though, since I agree that they weren't stacked last year and that the heat aren't the most stacked team ever.



I don't agree with this, so again, irrelevant. Bosh was never a superstar, he was a top 15 player when he joined wade & bron and was a great 3rd option. Wade was a superstar the first 2 years and played like one in the reg season of 2013, struggled a bit in the playoffs but had a good finals and had some big games.
Yeah, the Heat probably aren't the most stacked team in NBA history, but relative to league average, they might have been the best offensive cast in history.
Best player in the league in LeBron
Top 2 SG/Top 6-7 player in Wade
Top 5 PF/Top 15 player in Bosh

And a ridiculous amount of excellent shooters to space the floor for James/Wade:
Ray Allen
Chalmers
Battier
Miller
Lewis
(And you can even throw in Bosh here with him being regulated to a spot up shooter in Miami) Absolutely insane. If you were going to create the perfect offensive cast for a perimeter superstar, this would be it.