ISH Book/Movie Club

[Jailblazers7]

I've been tossing around the idea of starting a book club on ISH for a while and I'd like to gauge the interest of others. I'd like to have somewhere to have good analytical discussions about books, philosophy, and film and ISH has a lot of smart, thoughtful people. The podcasts and articles on Grantland's film section like Wesley Morris' stuff really has me interested in putting more time and thought into analyzing books and movies.

We tried it once before but the amount of reading we first attempt was probably too much. This time around I'd like to try something with less reading and more focus on good discussions. Reading length will be short like maybe a few chapters or parts of books. I'd like to branch out to movie to so that we can all pick a good movie to watch and discuss it.

I will bump this a couple of times to see if we can get a group of people to commit. Let me know if you are interested and we can figure out the details once we know we have a solid group of participants. So far the people who have expressed an interest in joining are:

Jailblazers7
Ridonks
Nanners
That_Admiral
Thorpe
riseagainst
sunsfan1357
Wavves
irondarts
BoogieWoogie
macmac
Bird
ShannonElements
Anti Hero
Smoke117
J$
Stempel_HERB
B-Hoop
Zen

Movies only:
ProfessorMurder
KyleKong
ROCSteady
bballnoob
moe

[Meticode]

I'd be interested in the movie side of it.

[outbreak]

Do we have a thread just to post what we've been reading like the rate you're last movie thread? I'm not interested in a book club (god knows I've already got an entire book shelf left of back log to read through) but would be cool to be able to post reviews and find inspiration for new books to pick up.

[cuad]

More like ISH Wussy Club. **** outta here, Read and Rainbow mother****ers.

[That_Admiral]

keen !

[Thorpesaurous]

I can't remember who it was, but somebody on here started a film message board once. I thought it was pretty good, but it didn't catch on.

It was a good idea though. It was sort of an open to spoilers kind of a place, where you could discuss the things you've seen, rather than the delicate dancing around of stuff that goes on in the Rate the Last movie thread, which is awesome, but just too big to really navigate if you're looking for something specific.


We do have a What're you reading thread in here too. Reading is such slow going, and there are so many options, and people's tastes so diverse, it's hard to find concensus enough to have any real discussion. Maybe two people read the same thing you did. So something more focused would be cool. But reading is tricky. I probably read 4 or 5 books a year, which is seemingly more than most, but only a fraction of what most people do. I tried to join a local book club once, but there were too many things I had to read that I just couldn't get into, and it occupies a lot of time for something that you may not enjoy. Especially when you put a time table on it. I just ripped through the newest Zodiac Killer Theory book out there. But finding people looking to discuss something like that would be tricky.

You know what would be a great idea, is if Nook had a message board connecting to the books you buy to a universal discussion page on the specific books you buy.


Anyway ... I'd totally give it a shot.

[RidonKs]

yea i'm definitely in if we can find enough committed people. im going to send a few pm's to ishers who might be interested but don't frequent ish as often as they used to. nice to hear thorpe's in too!

i dunno how frequent the movie side of things will be... i'm more interested in books tbh and i thought jb feels the same way. we just threw in movies for the hell of it. maybe we could go back and forth on it?

you're right thorpe that it'll be tricky to agree on readings. the idea started from a desire to discuss and dissect philosophy texts. the vast majority of people aren't going to be very interested in doing this and i can't blame them, i can't stand a lot of that stuff either. but still, i'm hoping we cover some philosophy, but mostly of a socio-political / economic nature. maybe some pop science. and definitely some literature as well.

but it won't be entire books since yea, six weeks would be too long and people would either forget or give up or not bother. abridged readings, sections of texts we can find online, short stories or novellas. it'll be particularly fun to find texts that either overlap or contradict one another to get a few perspectives going.

hopefully some others might be interested in joining..

[Meticode]

Never mind, I don't want to be in this. Too many self-loathing intellects in here already.

[Jailblazers7]

Yeah, I'm more interesting in reading but I figured that we would get more interest from the movie side of things. Maybe we can do a cycle where doing a reading then a movie or something.

I'd be cool with the type of reading Ridonks just laid out. In fact, the New Yorker just started republishing a collection of articles by John Brooks who was a great business writer in the 1960s and 1970s. The articles are really good examples of longform journalism which might be a good style of readings for a group like this.

[KyleKong]

Let's do movies.

No one will read a book.

[RidonKs]

Never mind, I don't want to be in this. Too many self-loathing intellects in here already.
:lol



yeah jb i really like the ideas of long form journalism and essays. much easier to find online too.

i wonder if guys like dresta, starface, slver would be interested... they would definitely add an interesting component lol

[riseagainst]

count me in bruh.

[sunsfan1357]

In for either

[Wavves]

I'd be interested in taking part in this. Been trying to get reading so it would be good to be around people who can guide me in the right direction :oldlol: Huge movie buff too.

[Theoo]

very nice idea we well start with my favorite book
#http://http://www.eymundsson.is/nanar/?productid=54b03e5b-7aac-48ca-8442-98ba99cb0dd9#

these are very nice book about kalli , that go to store , these book well male you think and make you crying . very nice iceland literature

[Theoo]

very nice idea we well start with my favorite book
#http://http://www.eymundsson.is/nanar/?productid=54b03e5b-7aac-48ca-8442-98ba99cb0dd9#

these are very nice book about kalli , that go to store , these book well male you think and make you crying . very nice iceland literature
http://http://www.eymundsson.is/library/Myndir/Navision-vorur---myndir/VBOX0706.jpg?proc=ProductImgZoom

[Theoo]

http://www.eymundsson.is/library/Myndir/Navision-vorur---myndir/VBOX0706.jpg?proc=ProductImgZoom

[ZeN]

No music or graphic novels?

[ZeN]

You know what would be a great idea, is if Nook had a message board connecting to the books you buy to a universal discussion page on the specific books you buy.


Anyway ... I'd totally give it a shot.

Goodreads has that option and I think the Nook directly connects to it. I know the Kindle does. It directly connects you to reviews, message boards, and groups/clubs of specific interests, books, topics, etc.

[Jailblazers7]

No music or graphic novels?

I'm honestly not against anything right now. I do think it might be harder to find common ground on music and I'm not sure how many people are into graphic novel. But I'm fine with letting this group try a variety of things. I guess coming up with a solid voting/nomination system will be important.

[RidonKs]

yea musics tricky. most albums aren't really coherent in terms of themes and ideas. the most you could really do is discuss the influences and history of those influences. i'm not altogether against it but having a real conversation about it is difficult.

graphic novels sure i don't care as long as its something i'm interested in

you in zen?

[ZeN]

yea musics tricky. most albums aren't really coherent in terms of themes and ideas. the most you could really do is discuss the influences and history of those influences. i'm not altogether against it but having a real conversation about it is difficult.

graphic novels sure i don't care as long as its something i'm interested in

you in zen?
Yeah I'm in for whatever. Films or any Book under 1000 pages.

[Wavves]

Music is an interesting idea, I'd be up for that if others are as well.

[irondarts]

I am definitely into this for both books and movies.

[ROCSteady]

I'd be down moreso for the film portion

[ZeN]

Film does seem to be the easiest option.. As well as the most accessible..

[ZeN]

Might participate in a book club assuming
books arent ****ing retarded.
Why do you think they would select a retarded book?

:coleman:

[BoogieWoogieMan]

Sign me up for both.

[Akrazotile]

Im in for porn.

[macmac]

I would be interested in both options

[macmac]

Might participate in a book club assuming the books arent ****ing retarded.

I'm a big fan of the retarded genre. If there's no retarded books you can count me out

[Akrazotile]

Raped


Sorry but you dont extend my bar.

[Akrazotile]

Enjoy the red.


Its a message board :facepalm

[bballnoob1192]

who the hell still read books anymore? i'll join a movie club

[Bird]

I'd be in for both sides. I have plenty of free/down time at work to slip in some more reading and watching.

[Jailblazers7]

Ok, I think we have a good group and we can move on to figuring out the mechanics of how this will work. Anyone else that wants to join can do so at any time.

The question now is how we want to choose what to read/watch. I think we can probably alternate between reading and movies in order to accommodate everyone. My idea for selecting a topic is to randomly selecting 3 people to nominate a subject. Then everyone can vote on the 3 options and the first one to get 5 votes (or something like that) will be what we read/watch. Anyone have better ideas?

We can either have the discussion here or we can just choose a sub-forum to use as a place to create a new thread for each new reading/movie. Maybe the WNBA or Sonics forum so that we can kind of be away from the trolls and also have a little used forum that will be easy to find old threads. That or we can do a new thread in the OTC every time and I can keep the OP updated with links to each thread.

[Akrazotile]

The question now is how we want to choose what to read/watch. I think we can probably alternate between reading and movies in order to accommodate everyone. My idea for selecting a topic is to randomly selecting 3 people to nominate a subject. Then everyone can vote on the 3 options and the first one to get 5 votes (or something like that) will be what we read/watch. Anyone have better ideas?



I recommend a weighted lottery system based on intellectual merit.

There is a drawing of ping pong balls, audited of course by Ernst and Young, and everyone is entered with an opportunity. But with fewer balls going to the lesser intellects. Zen would have the smallest number of ping pong balls and therefore the lowest odds. This way you'll have a lower chance of having to watch the base, unstimulating titles he is likely to select.

[Jailblazers7]

I recommend a weighted lottery system based on intellectual merit.

There is a drawing of ping pong balls, audited of course by Ernst and Young, and everyone is entered with an opportunity. But with fewer balls going to the lesser intellects. Zen would have the smallest number of ping pong balls and therefore the lowest odds. This way you'll have a lower chance of having to watch the base, unstimulating titles he is likely to select.

Under that system we would all need to gather in a physical location to take an IQ test administered by Mensa in or to get the weighting system correct. Otherwise, what's the point?

And **** you Shannon. This is going to work by sheer force of will. I will create alts and have discussions with myself if I have to.

[ZeN]

It ain't gonna work man! I'm reading two books currently and also writing one, and I don't even like books!

F*ck books!
Bullshit!

You watch like 21 1/2 movies a week!

Unless your sleep writing or sumthin

[Thorpesaurous]

I can't remember who made the other message board. It was a subset of guys from here. And you had to submit for acceptence onto the board.

Once you were in there, there was a movie section. A book section. A music section. And it was all known to be spoiler heavy. So you'd have a thread for some movie, and everyone would get in there and have open discussion about theories, subtext, symbolism, etc.

It was a nice way to do it. There wasn't a set everyone is gonna read this or see this sort of format. Especially in the book section there's be dead threads started about books that other people never read, but you could use them as reviews, then if you chose to read them, at least you knew you had another person, or couple of people, to have a reasonable conversation with on the topic. And if you created a topic on a book yourself, you could find a month later someone engaging you in a discussion on it, which was kind of a cool way to reflect back on stuff.
The movie stuff obviously went quicker. Especially when there was discussion about classics that everyone had seen, or newer stuff that had become sort of cultural beacons.

It was a nice way to do it. It died though because it didn't have enough members. It's a tricky line to walk when you're trying to keep a closed community of people who are looking to have that level of analytic conversation. If it's fully opened to the public it becomes uncontrollable.

[Jailblazers7]

Hmm, for some reason I want to say ukplayer did that. I could be making that up tho. That is an interesting format although I'm not sure how we would pull it off with doing something similar and I'm not sure I would want to create create a message board.

[macmac]

Is it gonna be one book to read per week? That might be a lot for some ppl depending on schedules. Why don't we do something like a weekly movie to watch and a book once a month. Might be easier than to alternate week to week.

I'm also down to somehow have a gated community within a smaller sub forum. It would suck to put effort into organizing this only to have morons disprupt everything

[Jailblazers7]

I was actually thinking smaller readings like long-form journalism, essays, portions of a book, etc. We tried the one book per month thing before and a layoff that long just killed the whole thing. If it is a book, I was thinking something shorter just to make it easier on people. I don't want to do a book per week either so no need to worry about that.

I do like the movie a week and book a month idea tho. That would be a nice way to keep everyone engaged and active while we read something. The problem with doing this before is that we couldn't get people together for a discussion after a month of silence.

[ROCSteady]

The short stories genre has so many options to sift through written from notable juggernauts to amateur as fck college students.

I would be down to participate in that. I just didn't want to participate in a novel portion because I like to read at my own pace and not feel obligated to stay up crazy hours to keep with y'all, who I'm sure are faster readers than I am. I've never been a fast reader. I like to savor and have the scene in my head vivd as possible and not just trying to tear through.

[Jailblazers7]

Yeah I've slowed down as a reader because I spend so much time on the dialogue now. I pretty much treat it like a script and go through the different inflections until I find the most satisfying/logical one. I don't have much patience for scene description tho. I'd rather my mind fill in the details instead of the writer's.

[Akrazotile]

Yeah I've slowed down as a reader because I spend so much time on the dialogue now. I pretty much treat it like a script and go through the different inflections until I find the most satisfying/logical one. I don't have much patience for scene description tho. I'd rather my mind fill in the details instead of the writer's.


I have made a similar shift recently, in fact sometimes if I begin a paragraph that seems poised to be one long description of a building, or someones clothing, or anything mundane, Ill just jump right past it. Depending on circumstance of course.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Let's ride.

[RidonKs]

this is looking great

i really like the idea of just throwing out book ideas and seeing who takes them up. you get three or four people vested and you're set. figure out how long you want between you.

maybe at the same time we have short assigned readings, that everyone at least tries to do in a 2 or 3 weeks. essays, short stories, etc like jailblazers is saying.

[Akrazotile]

Let's ride.


Hey, I've got an idea.


Why dont you shut your ****ing mouth before I shove my **** in it and piss?


kk?

[Jailblazers7]

I'll do a randomizer with the names of the participants this week and then we can start the nomination process. Do we wanna focus on a movie first and then we can select a reading after we have that figured out?

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

I'll start

Dawn of the Planet of the Apes

He Got Game

The Road

Chris Moore's Fool

within a month or so.

This should be interesting.

We got the brains of a dozen solid people here and ideas originate when two fresh perspectives meet. Even something as small as a misplaced word can trigger potential genius in our men. It will be fun to see patterns and wisdom and motifs from many sources. We'll be the chosen few to actually create an intellectual culture amidst the peasants. F*ck yes. Orville Wright checking in.

Already made it to TedTalks and with LBJ taking flight, a respark of basketball interest is inevitable amongst the internet populace. Our consciousness will explode twofold, then fourfold, then fivefold as we magnetize the audience with our lust for fine literature and steal the attention of reddit and soon whatever we deem truth will be the collective's Truth. MUAHAHAHA

Any thoughts on how to systematically organize the writing?

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

He Got Game.

Story: A young high school basketball superstar goes through the tumultuous process of choosing what to do with his future while trying to forgive his father and raise his younger sister.

Memorable Dialogue:
"How do you spell puccy Jesus? A-I-D-S" [Inevitably, the sweet pursuit of pleasure works much like a succubus. It lures you in with promises of Divine tender loving and there's good cheers all about until BAM you're stuck with an immunodeficiency virus which drains and saps your mighty Masculine Strength. See Samson and Delilah. Such is also the nature of things like gambling or hard drug use or easy solutions in life such as consuming sugar]

"The sistaz are fine but they make ya work too hard. All you gotta do to hit up dem snowbunnies and say come here lemme spank dat azz and within 5 minutes she'll be banging at your door."
[As most energetically expensive systems function on using as little energy as possible, the human body is designed to seek the path of least resistance. Inevitably, it'll opt out for R-selection type mating strategy with slutty whores in lieu of the traditional Lebron James-high school sweetheart K-selection mating)

"These new playaz. Their fundamentals are sorely lacking. They all about the dunking." [All great buildings and talents require a sturdy baseline foundatoin before the finesse can be added on top. See Trapezoid. See Pyramids of Aztec and Egypt. See the primary school education of any philosopher. See Larry Bird's statline]

Character Progression:

Jake: Starts off as a hard headed drill sergeant cold jackass and slowly we sympathize with his situation. He atones for killing his lovable wife by literally playing captain save a ho on milla jovovich.

Jesus: supposedly the hero and his path is quite simple. cash vs. education. big leagues or big state university. he seems to honor his mother's emphasis on being a learned man and whatnot in spite of the fact that the italian guy offers him some fancy azz watch. yet the concept of christ falling into temptation is constantly there because that itch to just have that sweet cash RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW would be teh SOLUTION to so many goddamn problems.. i.e. sister.

The italian guy coach guy that drops 10,000 and rightfully says Jake u been taking bribes the whole time.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

I'll start with some questions for D.o.t.P.o.t.A

1) In your mind----What do the Apes represent? What do the humans represent?

2) Who are the characters historically that stick out to you that remind you of Caesar or Malcolm? Benevolent leaders who trust their rivals so to speak?

3) Was Koba in the wrong? Should he have killed Ash?

4) Were there other sources of power for the humans?

5) How would you personally maintain peace amongst the tribes?

6) How would you relieve tension amongst Israel-Palestine, Albania-Serbia, India-Pakistan, China-Japan etc. without sacrificing your personal and national identity?

7) Had Malcolm's girlfriend not come to Caesar's wife with a cure to help her heal the post-ailments of pregnancy, would the apes have forgiven the duo still... or would their opinions of the human still be heavily impressioned by the hidden gun of the cynical azzhole of the group?

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Picked up the Meditation habit once more after reading Meditations by Aurelius. Feels good man. The old saying. Be like a Roman man. Just do one thing at a time. Something this foolish fellow has disobeyed for 23 fukking years.

You still amped on addy and coffee? We need Moore Chris More Dark humor up in here. Especially after the Malaysian tragedy. It's the best flavor of comedy indubitably. Both more robust and everlasting than the gayness and sarcasm employed almost everywhere.

Caught In bruges and died laughing at the part where he discusses the war of the races.

[Stempel, HERB]

I'll do it.

[Jailblazers7]

I'd be fine with Planet of the Apes being the first movie we discuss. I think a lot of people have seen it already and I'll be seeing it soon. I think there is a lot of good stuff to dig into in that movie series too.

[RidonKs]

i saw planet of the apes last week in my first time to the theatres in probably a year. i had never seen any of the originals or the prequel, caught that one a few nights ago. i thought they were pretty good and could probably get a good discussion under way. good call j$, way to jump right in there haha

i pm'ed jeff on the oft chance he was feeling charitable looking for our own subforum. i figured if they made one for a damn fantasy league, maybe we might stand a chance. no response back yet though.

one request: no chris moore

[RidonKs]

J$, boogie and myself will push for your continued torture through Moore.. At least there won't be any more religious books tho. Lamb seems to be only one of that specific type that he's made...aside from Stupidest Angel.
i only read the one and i'd be willing to give him a second chance in case lamb just wasnt my cup of tea. but it wasn't the religious angle that turned me off, that was partly what drew me in actually. i just didn't get anything out of it. it was a goofy cluster of fairy tail adventures that were only loosely related to anything we know or think we know about jesus. mildly amusing but not worth my time and definitely not worth discussion in a book club haha

you guys have at it though. jb's nomination process for assigned readings seems good, and if we can find the right venue, people can just post books they're interested in and see if others wanna jump in.

[ROCSteady]

I'd be fine with Planet of the Apes being the first movie we discuss. I think a lot of people have seen it already and I'll be seeing it soon. I think there is a lot of good stuff to dig into in that movie series too.

:applause: Big fan of the Planet of the Apes franchise. I own the original boxset with all five plus Rise of the Planet of the Apes.

Burton/ Wahlberg version can go fck itself :hammerhead:

[B-hoop]

Hey guys, sign me up for the book side of the club, have we decided on a title yet?

[B-hoop]

Thank God i already read it, so what do you think about Tolstoy's view on how history is not made by the great individuals but by the masses in small interconnected actions?

I found it really interesting, specially how he portrayed the way the generals in the Napoleonic Wars really didn't know shit about what they were doing. Quite a refreshing view.

[B-hoop]

Its a nice book, a bit too winded sometimes, but overall with a nice flowing style to it.

Never heard of the Malazan series, what's it about?

[RidonKs]

If you are looking for an educational read then yea you'll never like Moore. His books arent an exercise in the intellectual or literature for critical thinking. He's what you read in between the mentally constructive stuff. Much like how in the film world a comedy may be brilliance but it won't challenge you like a think flick.

Moore books are for those who like to take a bit of time off from the serious, to laugh at something absurd. To delve into a journey of jest without the need to exhaust the system with existential meditation or the ramifications of humanities' actions. Even though he does sprinkle a bit, however fleeting.

Personally I prefer to fluctuate in what I read. That way you can appreciate different types of awesome while pausing to refresh.

Also I temper my expectations so as to not to be unduly disappointed.high expectations had a lot to do with it. a friend had been hyping it up for me and i had heard a bunch of good things. mixing it up is definitely good, depends on with what i guess.

[B-hoop]

So kinda like The Wheel of Time?

Nice, i need another big saga like that to look forward to, has the author finished the series already?

[RidonKs]

a few of those actually sound pretty cool. i'll have to give him another shot in the future. perhaps right in this very thread! lol

[ZeN]

a few of those actually sound pretty cool. i'll have to give him another shot in the future. perhaps right in this very thread! lol
I shall convert you yet!

[B-hoop]

Just bought the ebook with all 10 books on Amazon, thanks for the tip :cheers:

[ZeN]

Just bought the ebook with all 10 books on Amazon, thanks for the tip :cheers:
Awesome man enjoy. The first book is a bit harder read than the rest, but the two after that are pretty perfect.

[RidonKs]

so what's the deal here? no response from jeff on the subforum front... should we storm a team forum? or just stay in the otc?

[ZeN]

so what's the deal here? no response from jeff on the subforum front... should we storm a team forum? or just stay in the otc?
It's on Jailblaze we all been waiting on his setting things up..and you if it's a co-management situation.

If you build it, they will come.

When something is chosen, people will eventually trickle in and drop opinions. Just like t.v. show threads.

[Smoke117]

Both.

[RidonKs]

It's on Jailblaze we all been waiting on his setting things up..and you if it's a co-management situation.

If you build it, they will come.

One something is chosen, people will eventually trickle in and drop opinions. Just like t.v. shoes threads.
democracy ftw! the more activity in this thread (even by the same handful of people) the more attractive it looks to outsiders considering it. throw shit out there, see what sticks.

threads would get lost way too quickly in the otc. the other option is to find a forum elsewhere though then people might not bother checking.



Told ya
http://www.oneletterwords.com/assets/Floating-Kitties.gif

didnt see those cats there at first...

[ZeN]

democracy ftw! the more activity in this thread (even by the same handful of people) the more attractive it looks to outsiders considering it. throw shit out there, see what sticks.

threads would get lost way too quickly in the otc. the other option is to find a forum elsewhere though then people might not bother checking.



http://www.oneletterwords.com/assets/Floating-Kitties.gif

didnt see those cats there at first...
I'm sure you can count on a core group of us to keep the bumpage happening. I've been working on this one for last few days lol

I agree,with the subforum issue. People will forget. Here in the OTC something gets bumped and it reminds people of the ongoing thread.

I'm wondering would trolls really be a problem? They usually stay away from the what are you reading? Thread and the comic book drafts and the movie thread. They seem to flee lack of response and focus on actual progressive conversations.

[ZeN]

Btw us Bte folks have been leasing the super sonics I'm sure we could share

[ZeN]

I volunteer the Suns forum.
Or dat

[RidonKs]

This makes sense... not like they're using it
we might only have so long.. word has it seattle makes for a helluva fan base lol

[Jailblazers7]

Sorry guys, been busy. I'll randomize a list and the top 5 can nominate books to vote on. For short readings I can throw out some suggestions tomorrow.

[RidonKs]

Weird that you quoted ZeN but it was my quote. :biggums:
mysterious......


i still like the idea of the whole collective sticking to the short stuff and for full books people can just start a threat on a book they want to read and see what comes.. but i'm easy

[B-hoop]

Zen, have you ever read the Dune series by Frank Herbert? I am reading the preface for the first book in the Malazan series and Erikson cites Dune as his inspiration.

If its anything close to Dune then I know I will love these books. Unless the guy dies before he finishes the story and his son tries to finish it but ends up screwing the whole series :lol

[ZeN]

Weird that you quoted ZeN but it was my quote. :biggums:
That's creepy, seriously..

[ZeN]

A Song of Ice and Fire

The Dunk and Egg Novellas
Not a bad idea.

[ZeN]

Zen, have you ever read the Dune series by Frank Herbert? I am reading the preface for the first book in the Malazan series and Erikson cites Dune as his inspiration.

If its anything close to Dune then I know I will love these books. Unless the guy dies before he finishes the story and his son tries to finish it but ends up screwing the whole series :lol
I've only read the first book. It has similarities in that Malazan is also a bit long winded in its world building (which I don't mind) and that a lot of its locations feel gritty and desolate.

I think overall they are different types of books. Malazan has greater scope and more visual versatility. Just as enjoyable as dune.

[Jailblazers7]

Results of list randomizer:


There were 14 items in your list. Here they are in random order:

1. Wavves
2. irondarts
3. Anti Hero
4. macmac
5. That_Admiral
6. sunsfan1357
7. BoogieWoogie
8. Nanners
9. Bird
10. riseagainst
11. Jailblazers7
12. Thorpe
13. ShannonElements
14. Ridonks
Timestamp: 2014-07-23 13:46:10 UTC

I will PM the top 5 and let them know to come in an nominate a book for a vote. If someone chooses to skip, then the next person on the list can nominate something.

In the meantime, I think having the discussion threads in the OTC is probably fine. I can keep links to the discussion threads in the OP of this thread so that they are easy to find. I worry that the discussion won't get much traction if we keep them in a little used sub-forum.

edit - I could not PM That_Admiral because he has under 100 posts but hopefully he sees this. Also, it looks like Anti Hero might have already posted his nomination for A Song of Fire and Ice (altho I feel like that has already been pretty thoroughly discussed in the GoT thread).

I had originally thought that we'd do short readings over shorter periods of time but it seems like a lot of people want to do books. Honestly don't care but I can throw out nominations for shorter readings like essays if people are interested in reading and discussing them while things get sorted out. I've been picking away at the complete set of Emerson essays for the past few months so I'd be more than happy to read/discuss one of his essays in here.

[ZeN]

I guess I didn't make the cut ...

http://www.phillysportscentral.com/forums/images/smilies/negged.gif

[irondarts]

I was seriously considering nominating that BJ Novak book that Anti-Hero did. Weird. :oldlol:

OK - here's my nomination. It's a new essay collection from a writer I enjoy:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/317xwI0pMAL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

More Curious by Sean Wilsey


In More Curious, Sean Wilsey travels across the U.S., from the launchpad at Cape Canaveral, to the isolated artists' enclave of Marfa, Texas, to the boardrooms and ballrooms of post–9/11 New York City. Wherever he is, Wilsey captures his surroundings with the precision of a photographer and the raw grace of a skateboarder (he's an amateur practitioner of both arts). And his eye always finds an unrivaled intensity of detail: here, and only here, will a reader be privy to the Dostoyevskian whiff of Marfa's fugitive underbelly, the unsung delights of a skater rag's cooking column, the exact amount of time elapsed since the soundwaves of a long-lost, legendary World Cup broadcast passed out of our solar system.

Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/More-Curious-Sean-Wilsey/dp/1940450179/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406129469&sr=8-1&keywords=more+curious)

[Wavves]

Would I be able to skip? Don't really know of anything to nominate since I'm only just starting to try and get into reading and such, sorry :oldlol:

[insidehoops]

Happy to create a subforum for this if you guys really want one.

If just one topic would due then there's no need for an entire subforum though.

Think about it, and collectively let me know

And of course a bunch of people would be made mods for that subforum

[Akrazotile]

Happy to create a subforum for this if you guys really want one.

If just one topic would due then there's no need for an entire subforum though.

Think about it, and collectively let me know

And of course a bunch of people would be made mods for that subforum


Negged

[Wavves]

I support the idea of a subforum.

[BlkMambaGOAT]

A Song of Ice and Fire

The Dunk and Egg Novellas
I had more fun going over calculus notes than reading that monstrosity

Thank God they made a T.V show on it with just enough fanservice

[Jailblazers7]

Would I be able to skip? Don't really know of anything to nominate since I'm only just starting to try and get into reading and such, sorry :oldlol:

No problem, I will just PM sunsfan since he is next on the list. I kind of don't think the That_Admiral is going to see that he is up to nominate so someone can let Boogie know that he is available to nominate something.

As for the sub-forum, that would be pretty awesome El Jeffe. I imagine this becoming a bunch of different threads for discussions on various books and movies so a sub-forum would be perfect. That way we can keep all the discussions in one location and can easily find old ones and keep new ones from falling off the first page in the OTC.

[Jailblazers7]

Book nomination process is a little slow. :lol

Do 3 other people just want to nominate books on a first come basis and then we can all vote on which one we want to read? I'll nominate a book if need be.

[B-hoop]

I am not on the list so don't know if i can nominate a book, but anyways:

http://p.playserver1.com/ProductImages/0/1/2/7/8/3/3/1/13387210_700x700min_1.jpg

[BoogieWoogieMan]

I can nominate something? Sweeeet.

I saw that ZeN has been reading this book lately on Goodreads and it was actually the next thing I was going to read on my list.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/BraveNewWorld_FirstEdition.jpg


Far in the future, the World Controllers have created the ideal society. Through clever use of genetic engineering, brainwashing and recreational sex and drugs, all its members are happy consumers. Bernard Marx seems alone harbouring an ill-defined longing to break free. A visit to one of the few remaining Savage Reservations, where the old, imperfect life still continues, may be the cure for his distress...



One question: Does the book have to be new, or can it be from any time frame?

[sunsfan1357]

Sorry guys, fell behind in the thread the past two weeks have been a little hectic at work.

I'd like to nominate a book I haven't read yet but has been on my list for a while, "The Thief," by Fuminori Nakamura.


In Fuminori Nakamura's new novel, the main character weaves along the streets of Tokyo pickpocketing his way through the flow of humanity, as if in a dream. He lifts wallets filled with cash and credit cards with a masterful ease, his mind occupied with a trance-like debate about whether to care anymore. Whether to care about the young kid he sees clumsily stealing food at a supermarket. Whether to care about his partner, who disappeared after a botched robbery years ago. Oscillating between the real connection he establishes with the shoplifting boy and the drug-like daze of his own criminal past, the thief drifts back into the clutches of the mastermind of that ill-fated robbery. And the thief starts to wake up, only to realize that a noose is being carefully, and slowly, drawn around his neck

[Jailblazers7]

Alright I think we've got enough nominations. I'll post the list in a bit and people can start voting.

[Jailblazers7]

One More Thing: Stories and Other Stories by BJ Novak (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18007533-one-more-thing) (1 votes)
More Curious by Sean Wilsey (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/19302082-more-curious?from_search=true) (2 votes)
The Lions of Al-Rassan by Guy Gavriel Kay (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/104101.The_Lions_of_Al_Rassan?from_search=true)
Brave New World by Aldous Huxley (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5129.Brave_New_World?from_search=true) (2 votes)
Star Wars: Legacy by John Ostrander (3 votes)
Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7677.Jurassic_Park)
The Thief by Fuminori Nakamura (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12296546-the-thief?from_search=true)
Fanny and Zooey by JD Salinger (2 votes)

We will vote on these books and the first to 5 votes will be the book of choice.

The first movie we will discuss is Dawn of the Planet of the Apes.

[Wavves]

My vote will go to One More Thing: Stories and Other Stories by BJ Novak. I like Novak, so that's why :oldlol:

A couple of those suggested look interesting though.

[Inferno]

Anyone read Stephen King's It?

[Wavves]

Anyone read Stephen King's It?
I haven't but the movie is great. I'd love to read the novel soon though.

[Inferno]

I haven't but the movie is great. I'd love to read the novel soon though.

Novel was great. Couple weird seasons but overall amazing book. Better than the movie IMO

[Jailblazers7]

Threw in my own nomination that I'd like to reread. I'll vote on one of the others to morrow.

Btw, don't know how voting etiquette should go but feel free to vote for your own book. I'm prob only going to be nominating rereads for a bit so I'll be refraining from voting for my own nominations for the time being.

btw, I'll prob be nominating a book of my own for a bit just as a price for running this thing whenever I feel like it. Prob a little unfair but its not like we have any real rules so anyone can really nominate books whenever the voting is open anyway.

[irondarts]

I'll vote for the Novak book as well because I almost nominated it myself and have been wanting to read it.

[Jailblazers7]

I vote for More Curious by Sean Wilsey.

Also, we should definitely see Boyhood and discuss it in this group.

[ZeN]

I vote for the BJ book.

Also, if it wins I can provide the ebook to anyone that needs it.

[ZeN]

Actually Id like to change my vote to Star Wars: Legacy


Since Nowacks' book sucks.

[RidonKs]

yeah i like the sounds of that more curious, that one gets my vote

a subforum is (hopefully) pending

[Akrazotile]

Id like to nominate Everyone Poops


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/Everyone_Poops.jpg


Its a literary classic and a rather profound look at the juxtaposition of how we interpret those phenomena which demonstrate an intrisic ability to metabolise, versus how we perceive the humor and truth that is so exigenitally linked to our gooey brown globs.

[Bcogswell]

I'm up for movie only.

[ZeN]

I'm up for movie only.
You scared brah?

[macmac]

I'll vote for Franny and Zooey, read it a long time ago, wouldn't mind revisiting it. And I'd definitely like to discuss boyhood once I get a chance to see it, heard great things.

[ZeN]

I'll nominate Pop Art by Joe Hill. It's a short story. Time frame more suitable to this task than longer novels. I can provide the ebook.

[BoogieWoogieMan]

I think we have enough nominations for this month, we need more votes. :oldlol:

I'll vote for my own nomination (Brave New World), but if Star Wars: Legacy reaches 4 votes first, I'll change my vote to that.

[RidonKs]

scratch my vote earlier, i didn't see the salinger book. last and only book i ever read of his was the one everybody has read.. fanny and zooey looks interesting, i'm going with that one.

[ZeN]

I change my pick again to Star Wars Legacy

[macmac]

The entity known as Zen et al. has too much voting power lol

[Ketchup]

I vote for Star Wars one too. I like comic book sagas.

[shlver]

I would participate if the short readings or movies are interesting, but I probably couldn't make a time commitment to the longer books.

[B-hoop]

I vote for BJ Novak's book

[DEADPOOLZOMBIE]

Me Want I Am Legend

Iz Good History Lesson About My People

[ZeN]

Have you read it?
60% of it so far. It's pretentious, thinking itself clever when really it's gimmicks without wit.The epitome of vapidness..

[ZeN]

Yo ShanMan have you read previous comic book titles related to Star Wars? Does Legacy spoil or connect to earlier material?

[B-hoop]

60% of it so far. It's pretentious, thinking itself clever when really it's gimmicks without wit.The epitome of vapidness..

:eek:

I change my vote to Star Wars.

:coleman:

[ZeN]

I've read some stuff. It doesn't spoil anything. It does connect in that one of the main characters is a Skywalker.
Hmm ok cool I've been wanting to start chipping away at the star wars extended universe. So I guess Legacy is as good a place as any.

[ZeN]

:eek:

I change my vote to Star Wars.

:coleman:
Yeah I'm dissatisfied with the fact that all the short stories, (if you call them that) seem to have neither a purpose nor a resolution. It's like uninteresting drawn out non sequiturs.

[B-hoop]

I like some sci-fi short stories, there actually is one by George R.R. Martin which is very interesting, The Sandkings. Has nothing to do with ASOIAF universe.

It's true the lack of closure can be annoying though.

[Jailblazers7]

Update tally:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10357325&postcount=130

[BoogieWoogieMan]

Need more votes...

ZeN! Get our other alts in here.

[Waking_Life]

Yo wut up dawgs I be ready see some homies lightin' it up, I be ready fo' some space ninjas. I got my pick on dat Legacy from Star Wars yo. Ya heard? Word.

[DEADPOOLZOMBIE]

I change vote to star wars.

Can haz space brains?

[Jailblazers7]

So still 3 votes for Star Wars. :lol

[irondarts]

Too many people changing their votes. Make up your minds, people! You all are probably giving Jailblazers a headache. :oldlol:

[ZeN]

So still 3 votes for Star Wars. :lol
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-IA60AKHbhUA/U8WRgma6k3I/AAAAAAAAtGo/fqEKcl03itI/w500-h272/Hagan-i-dont-like-you.gif

[sunsfan1357]

I'll go with More Curious

[ZeN]

Stuck at an impasse?

[Brizzly]

Sure

[ZeN]

Sure
That mean you in? Got a selection?

[Brizzly]

Brave New World.

please stop voting for Star Wars.:(

[Jailblazers7]

Updated the count. So what is the deal with that Star Wars story line anyways? Is it a ton of comics or is a relatively short? Or is it a graphic novel?

[ZeN]

Updated the count. So what is the deal with that Star Wars story line anyways? Is it a ton of comics or is a relatively short? Or is it a graphic novel?
It is stupendously long..lol 50 issues.. Its like 1000 pages with visuals on it.

[ZeN]

Brave New World.

please stop voting for Star Wars.:(
Why stop voting cause of its length or lack of interest?

[Jailblazers7]

I thought we were trying to keep things a bit shorter so that we didn't kill group participation due to the reading requirements. I have a feeling a lot of people would just bail on that undertaking.

[Brizzly]

Why stop voting cause of its length or lack of interest?

Lack of interest, brave new world sounds interesting.

[Brizzly]

I just talked to my friend Walking Life and he wants to join and vote for Brave New World *wink wink*

[ZeN]

I thought we were trying to keep things a bit shorter so that we didn't kill group participation due to the reading requirements. I have a feeling a lot of people would just bail on that undertaking.
The first arc/volume isnt as large. I dont know if ShanMan meant the whole thing or just the first portion. Vol. 1 is about 6-7 issues.

I totally understand selecting something closer to brevity.

[ZeN]

Lack of interest, brave new world sounds interesting.
It is. Its definitely one that would promote discussion.

[Brizzly]

Erm...it's shorter than most books so I don't see what the problem is.

According to Wikipedia it has 50 issues and I'd assume each one of them around 40-50 pages?

That's like at least 2k pages.

[ZeN]

Erm...it's shorter than most books so I don't see what the problem is.
Its over 10 vol. long. Thats not a large amount of reading?


Its cool for me, im just saying others may think different.

[ZeN]

According to Wikipedia it has 50 issues and I'd assume each one of them around 40-50 pages?

That's like at least 2k pages.
Each issue is about 22-30 pages. Large portions of the pages being taken up by images instead of words.

[Brizzly]

Each issue is about 22-30 pages. Large portions of the pages being taken up by images instead of words.


I thought we were reading though, ahh **** it I don't care. Im down for anything.

[ZeN]

Like 23 pages. A lot of them mainly filled with artwork so all you have to do is turn the page after reading like two sentences. Graphic novel/comic books, it's semantics imo.

I think we need a new rule. Don't bitch.
hey I voted for it 4 times, so dont look at me... :lol

[ZeN]

I thought we were reading though, ahh **** it I don't care. Im down for anything.
you too good for graphic novels, that what you sayin?

[ZeN]

Thats why everyone should have gone with my graphic novel selection of Saga. That series kicks major ass.

[Jailblazers7]

Chill guys I just wanted to make sure the story arc wasn't too long. It appears that people aren't really coming into this thread to vote anyway lol.

[ZeN]

Chill guys I just wanted to make sure the story arc wasn't too long. It appears that people aren't really coming into this thread to vote anyway lol.
they some illiterate sons of bitches

[ZeN]

First it was too much reading, now it isn't enough.

:kobe:
Have you started the Legacy? If so how far along are you?

[Brizzly]

First it was too much reading, now it isn't enough.

:kobe:

I just don't want to stimulate my artistic senses while reading... is that too ****ing much to ask for?

[ZeN]

I just don't want to stimulate my artistic senses while reading... is that too ****ing much to ask for?
Visualization is a part of reading regardless of it being a text only book or one with imagery aid.

[Brizzly]

Visualization is a part of reading regardless of it being a text only book or one with imagery aid.

I've never read a comic in my life, except for flipping through some while in waiting rooms so I wouldn't know the difference. But I guess there is a first time for everything.

[Brizzly]

Democracy sucks don't it?

I don't know if you've ever been a book club member, but sometimes things get selected that you didn't really want to read. And sometimes, you discover something valuable because of it.

I already said I'll read anything, jeez..

But I hoped it would have been the one I wanted.

[ZeN]

10 issues. Slowed down in case it's selected.
Im currently 4 issues in. Its cool, I just have issues with that type of art.

[ZeN]

If this ever gets started im in a good position to digress.

Ive finished reading Brave New World, One More Thing, and Vol. 1 of the S.W. Legacy series.

[irondarts]

While I'm all for people making nominations and then us voting, I'm not quite sure this is the most effective method for this group. I think it would be more efficient to randomly pick a single member to pick the book that the group will read instead of nominations and voting for several different books. At this point, I'm not sure that it is working with this small size of posters. We either need 2 or 3 strict nominations to vote on or we need to pick one member each time to pick a book for the group to read.

Just my take, but this method is going nowhere in my opinion.

[BoogieWoogieMan]

While I'm all for people making nominations and then us voting, I'm not quite sure this is the most effective method for this group. I think it would be more efficient to randomly pick a single member to pick the book that the group will read instead of nominations and voting for several different books. At this point, I'm not sure that it is working with this small size of posters. We either need 2 or 3 strict nominations to vote on or we need to pick one member each time to pick a book for the group to read.

Just my take, but this method is going nowhere in my opinion.

I concur.


Not even ZeN's legion of alts can't help come to a conclusion in the voting.

[Jailblazers7]

Yeah, this seems to be failing. Maybe I'll take the list of people who have actually nominated and voted and then just do a randomizer to select one person. Then that person can select the book. This method is clearly taking too long.

[ZeN]

Yeah, this seems to be failing. Maybe I'll take the list of people who have actually nominated and voted and then just do a randomizer to select one person. Then that person can select the book. This method is clearly taking too long.
I vote that, yes, we should do that.

lol

[Smoke117]

I vote Fanny and Zooey

[ZeN]

I vote Fanny and Zooey
Too late.

[DirtBag]

This is why we can't have book clubs.

[ZeN]

This is why we can't have book clubs.
:oldlol:

[DirtBag]

I was reading the Prince of Nothing books.. I didn't make it past halfway of the second book. I wanted to like it, but I could never really get into it.

[ZeN]

I was reading the Prince of Nothing books.. I didn't make it past halfway of the second book. I wanted to like it, but I could never really get into it.
Brandon Sanderson

[Bird]

I vote Fanny and Zooey

If we are still voting, this is my vote.

If not, just let me know. Will download and read on phone at work.

[ZeN]

So.. No Randomizing?

[ROCSteady]

I picked up Mr. Mercedes for this trip Im takin to Texas.

That'd be legit if my ISH bros were starting it too

[Jailblazers7]

Ok so we can go with two options:

1) Franny and Zooey has 4 votes. I was the one that nominated so I could switch my vote to it as well since I obviously want to read it. That would give us 5 votes and we can finally move forward.

2) Randomize and have someone pick a book.

I'm partial to #1 since people have expressed interest in the book and Salinger is a notoriously easy read but I'm fine with #2 if the people who voted Star Wars aren't cool with it. Star Wars is the only other one with more than 2 votes so I want to make sure nobody will be pissed if we went with option 1.

[BoogieWoogieMan]

I'm cool with option #1.

[DirtBag]

ZeN is an elitist snob who derailed my nominations early momentum... I vote for RANDOM!

[irondarts]

I'm fine with option #1 as long as next time we start the one person picking a book system.

[RidonKs]

me likes option 1. but that's the one i voted for anyway.

we should have a subforum by the time we finish the first book if not much sooner. once we do, i imagine reading groups can just happen on their own without too much organization. post what you like and wait for ppl to pile on board. then we can have themed subgroups too; comics, short stories, essays, w/e

[ZeN]

I can't get my hands on the book. So I pick Random

[ZeN]

me likes option 1. but that's the one i voted for anyway.

we should have a subforum by the time we finish the first book if not much sooner. once we do, i imagine reading groups can just happen on their own without too much organization. post what you like and wait for ppl to pile on board. then we can have themed subgroups too; comics, short stories, essays, w/e
The problem with a bunch of threads on separate books is that people are hesitant to get out of their comfort zone without the sense of obligation.

[DirtBag]

The problem with a bunch of threads on separate books is that people are hesitant to get out of their comfort zone without the sense of obligation.
This is the internet on an off topic forum... there is not sense of obligation here.

[ZeN]

This is the internet on an off topic forum... there is not sense of obligation here.
And yet we are all here trying to make this work.

[DirtBag]

And yet we are all here trying to make this work.
I've got one foot out the door already :D

[ZeN]

I've got one foot out the door already :D
Well there is no room and there is no door.. your standing outside waiting for the room and door to be built.


So currently all our foots are outside.




Trollololol

[DirtBag]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/mime-invisible-wall.gif

[sunsfan1357]

Option 1

[Jailblazers7]

I'm fine with option #1 as long as next time we start the one person picking a book system.

That's fair and I can eliminate myself from the ability to pick it since this book was one I nominated.

Zen - I googled Franny and Zooey PDF and the first link worked for me.

http://vk.com/doc17269963_211264321?hash=8f6490e68065052ed8&dl=3c64aa27a7ca31a7a2

[irondarts]

I can't get my hands on the book. So I pick Random
No library near by?

So, it's decided that it's going to be Franny & Zooey? It's a good book, looking forward to a re-read. It's also an extremely easy book to read. It's a good choice for our first read.

[insidehoops]

Hello!

As mentioned, I am happy to create a subforum for you here, if needed.

But what do you think? A Book Club could actually just be one topic, called InsideHoops Book Club. Or do you need/want a full subforum for it?

I know I need to skim back a few pages to see what you said, so I will check back tonight or tomorrow and do that, and of course read additional responses to this

[DirtBag]

Hello!

As mentioned, I am happy to create a subforum for you here, if needed.

But what do you think? A Book Club could actually just be one topic, called InsideHoops Book Club. Or do you need/want a full subforum for it?

I know I need to skim back a few pages to see what you said, so I will check back tonight or tomorrow and do that, and of course read additional responses to this
A sub forum please... it'll help to allow for more than just one book reading to go on at a time without having everybody in 1 thread talking about multiple books.

[ZeN]

No library near by?

So, it's decided that it's going to be Franny & Zooey? It's a good book, looking forward to a re-read. It's also an extremely easy book to read. It's a good choice for our first read.
I don't frequent the library, expect occasionally to purchase used books. I'm too irresponsible to return books on time. I also usually can find the books I need online.

[ZeN]

That's fair and I can eliminate myself from the ability to pick it since this book was one I nominated.

Zen - I googled Franny and Zooey PDF and the first link worked for me.

http://vk.com/doc17269963_211264321?hash=8f6490e68065052ed8&dl=3c64aa27a7ca31a7a2
Thanks.

I converted into mobi and it came out all screwed up but I'll figure it out... Lol

[Jailblazers7]

Hello!

As mentioned, I am happy to create a subforum for you here, if needed.

But what do you think? A Book Club could actually just be one topic, called InsideHoops Book Club. Or do you need/want a full subforum for it?

I know I need to skim back a few pages to see what you said, so I will check back tonight or tomorrow and do that, and of course read additional responses to this

Subforum would be ideal. The goal is to have multiple threads on different movies and books going that can be kept separate and found later. I could even see us having discussions on hit TV shows where it's ok to post spoilers since random people on the OT won't stumble onto something that might ruin the show for them.

[ZeN]

Subforum would be ideal. The goal is to have multiple threads on different movies and books going that can be kept separate and found later. I could even see us having discussions on hit TV shows where it's ok to post spoilers since random people on the OT won't stumble onto something that might ruin the show for them.
I'd actually love the tv idea, since I watch way too much television

[RidonKs]

bump!


Hello!

As mentioned, I am happy to create a subforum for you here, if needed.

But what do you think? A Book Club could actually just be one topic, called InsideHoops Book Club. Or do you need/want a full subforum for it?

I know I need to skim back a few pages to see what you said, so I will check back tonight or tomorrow and do that, and of course read additional responses to this
we probably don't NEED a full subforum, but it would be preferable. there's a real chance it could succeed with one but might fade and fail if it were restricted to a single topic in the otc. if it's not a lot of trouble, i imagine it would be at least worth the experiment. we've already got close to a dozen guys who have settled on our first book. i think more interest could be generated with our own space.

[DaSeba5]

Awesome. I'm in.

[ZeN]

Time limit and/or progress update?

[Brizzly]

Anyone wanna give me an update?

[ZeN]

Anyone wanna give me an update?
Some people are reading the book, some haven't started, and there is no timetable or plan in place for how the discussion will occur.

[Jailblazers7]

Sorry, busy week. It's a short book so 2-3 weeks should be fine with everyone I imagine. I'll plan to get the discussion started on Monday 8/18.

[ZeN]

I'm about 65% done with it. Will be done with it in less than a week.

[Bird]

Sorry, busy week. It's a short book so 2-3 weeks should be fine with everyone I imagine. I'll plan to get the discussion started on Monday 8/18.

Sounds like a solid time frame.

I plan on starting it Tuesday (finishing up a book a started last week before I start it).

Do we also want to get a movie going as well? Some people will read this book fast (I know I will have it finished by Thursday, because of the down time I have at work), so adding a movie in to the mix will give them something else to focus on when they are done.

[Jailblazers7]

I think J$ pitcher Planet of the Apes which sounds like a good movie choice to me.

[Jailblazers7]

Sorry, busy week. It's a short book so 2-3 weeks should be fine with everyone I imagine. I'll plan to get the discussion started on Monday 8/18.

Bump for anyone who may have missed this

[Le Shaqtus]

I'd love to join this book club but I can't until I'm done with all the Fire and Ice novels and I'm only halfway through a Clash of Kings :oldlol:

After that I'm totally in.

[ZeN]

I'd love to join this book club but I can't until I'm done with all the Fire and Ice novels and I'm only halfway through a Clash of Kings :oldlol:

After that I'm totally in.
See you in 2015

[ZeN]

Any update?

[Thorpesaurous]

I apologize for not being very active in here. I haven't been very active period of late.

But one of the reasons is because of some of my spare time going to reading.

And the thing I just started felt like worth mentioning here. I know True Detective was a big hit on here. And particularly among the a lot of the guys in this thread. So sifting through my Nook store the other day I stumbled onto TD Author Nic Pizzalotto's novel Galveston.

I typically read a lot of True Crime (I just finished a book called The Most Dangerous Animal of All, where a Louisiana man claims that his estranged father was The Zodiac Killer). I don't read a ton of fiction. I've been slowly trudging through the full works of Cormac McArthy, which is some dark shit, and I have found some of it really dense. But Galveston was pitched as McArthy lite. And so far I've agreed. It's a hard boiled plain talking crime drama. Rich in description, and vivid character types, but nothing so dense as to make it hard to read. It's only 200 pages. I'm about 75 pages in. It seems like it would be a good read for most of the people in here, so far at least. The basic gist is that Roy is a big West Texas thug who works in collection for a New Orleans mobster. He's sent on a job that goes bad, or maybe it was a set up, and winds up fleeing the scene with a young prostitute, Rocky, who survived the incident too. Frankly it would make a great movie. I find myself casting in my head as I read.

It's got a few throwbacks to the show that were interesting even though they didn't mean anything. There's been a few references to Lone Star beer already. And the main character at one point describes cutting his lone star beer cans into army men and setting them up in a battle scene. It also takes place over a simlar region of West Texas / Louisiana, which makes me wonder if the author is so tied to the region that it'll cause problems moving forward with the True Detective Series. Seeing the Lone Star beer makes me believe that had he just kept exploring more unrelated stories within this same universe, like Marty and Rust were real people who still exist in this world, would be really interesting.

[RidonKs]

this book is terrific. i'm looking forward to talking about it.

[ZeN]

Oh wait, this is still happening?

[Jailblazers7]

Why wouldn't it? I said I'd start the book discussion on the 18th.

[ZeN]

Why wouldn't it? I said I'd start the book discussion on the 18th.
Thats my bad, I literally missed the fact that there was a date already set.

Is the location set as well?

[Jailblazers7]

Thats my bad, I literally missed the fact that there was a date already set.

Is the location set as well?

Not sure. probably the OTC since Jeff probably won't be providing a sub-forum. I think I might just make a new thread and provide a link to the thread into the OP of this thread.

[RidonKs]

so who else is reading this and will be done for monday?

[ZeN]

so who else is reading this and will be done for monday?
I finished it a few days after we started so I'm good. I'm ready to Troll.

[RidonKs]

I finished it a few days after we started so I'm good. I'm ready to Troll.
lol

[Jailblazers7]

I'll def be ready for Monday. Haven't started it yet but I might just read the whole thing on Sunday. I've read it like 5 times already so I just need a refresher to get some ideas going.

[RidonKs]

i'm pushing through it quickly when i find time atm but i think this weekend i'm gonna flip through it again. it's a lot of fun to read.

this is a call to arms for any lurker tracking the (agonizingly slow) progress of this thread; read this book!

[RidonKs]

bump bump bump ish book club give it a look and pick up franny and zooey from your library, short read and really good

[Bird]

Will most likely start and finish it at work today (Sunday).

We are exceptionally slow and I will have 12 hours to burn.

[ZeN]

Unfortunately it may only end up being the five of us..

[BigBoss]

I'm in if you guys are watching a movie. I love talking about film.

[ZeN]

I'm in if you guys are watching a movie. I love talking about film.
We will be talking a film called Dawn of the Planet of the Apes.

[Jailblazers7]

I'm in the process of moving apartments so I won't have a ton of time to be on ISH after work but I will just throw out some thoughts about the book to get the ball rolling.

1. I find it kind of interesting that Salinger makes the Glass family to be the ideal human family in a way. Overprotective mother, proud father, and wildly talented/intelligent kids. All of the Glass children are gorgeous artists who have a strong sense of artistic integrity. But on some level they are all unhappy for one reason or another. Do you think Salinger was making some type of comment on the goal of human perfection?
2. This ties into #1. Franny and Zooey claim that Seymour and Buddy ruined them in their childhood development because of the intense religious literature and highbrow art that they were essentially trained to enjoy. It was insinuated that Seymour and Buddy thought it was a better development strategy and would result in Franny and Zooey being "better" people. Do you think that type of development would/could be damaging to a child?
3. Salinger must have gotten his inspiration for the talk about Jesus from Emerson's Divinity School Address. Not sure about the importance of that but if you haven't read the Divinity School Address you should do so immediately.


Kind of some scattered thoughts but I wanted to make good on my promise to start something today. I will try to organize myself and post something more thoughtful later on.

[RidonKs]

didn't read those jb but tomorrow night i'll have some time to reflect and put together my thoughts / respond to yours

[ZeN]

The book is a god damn reflection of minutia and the mundane. It tip toes around intriguing subjects without having the god damn respect to follow through on the in depth analysis. It was too terse for my god damn taste. The prayer seeking enlightenment was something I wish was further explored. Frannys existential crises was to me the most alluring portion but it's also the god damned portion left in brevity. Everyone isn't obtuse.. so could we have gotten less over handed word bludgeoning?. I mostly didn't like it because it didn't god damn focus on subjects like mysticism, existentialism, despondency and personal conflict that it was tip toeing around.


Have I brought up the part where the stories are annoyingly filled with a plethora of God Dammit? We get it, you god dam feel strongly about something. 10-4 Roger That.

[Jailblazers7]

I actually liked the tip toeing because the dialogue was so good and in order to really dig in to one of those subjects would have required too much exposition for my taste.

I think the unhappiness of the two at its core was the fact that they don't respect their peers and the audience for which they perform. They don't think others really "get it" and appreciate things for the correct reason. In the end, Zooey tells Franny how he was able to overcome this cynicism and that's because of the idea that God resides in everyone and that pleasing a single person is the same as pleasing God. Kind of the "God is in all of us" schtick. It kind of made me think about the Before Sunrise quote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgiB6K_2Ly4) about reincarnation where Jesse is concerned that reincarnation means that souls keep getting divided and we are really just fractions of people. Maybe Franny and Zooey just have a slightly larger fraction than others and they need to be reminded that other people still have some portion of God or an eternal soul within them.

I had a really interesting tangent based on that line of thought about the universe being self-aware through humans and the real purpose of human existence was so that the universe could understand itself. Something about the universe being one connect, for lack of a better word, soul that first began as one substance and has been evolving and dividing ever since. Maybe I have it written down somewhere but I'm not sure.

[ZeN]

I actually liked the tip toeing because the dialogue was so good and in order to really dig in to one of those subjects would have required too much exposition for my taste.

I think we just differ in tastes when it comes to that. Many that disliked it I have found are for the same reasons as I disliked it. So I guess im just fixating on my own personal taste.





I think the unhappiness of the two at its core was the fact that they don't respect their peers and the audience for which they perform. They don't think others really "get it" and appreciate things for the correct reason. In the end, Zooey tells Franny how he was able to overcome this cynicism and that's because of the idea that God resides in everyone and that pleasing a single person is the same as pleasing God. Kind of the "God is in all of us" schtick. It kind of made me think about the Before Sunrise quote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgiB6K_2Ly4) about reincarnation where Jesse is concerned that reincarnation means that souls keep getting divided and we are really just fractions of people. Maybe Franny and Zooey just have a slightly larger fraction than others and they need to be reminded that other people still have some portion of God or an eternal soul within them.


Since I personally subscribe to a variation of that schtick, I didn't agree with the notions that Zooey was elaborating on but his explanation deviates from mine.. The bias makes my reading a contrarian type. Same goes for the Before Sunrise/Waking Life quote.. although in it, they are proving the point of the issues with believing in reincarnation. Which leads to the novels subject of meditation and connecting with that soul. The reason for their over-sensitivity is that they are maximizing the light of that soul. They are utilizing its essence far more than the people they are conflicting with in their society. Zooey spoke about the pineal gland in the first story, so the writer himself was hinting to the meditative belief of being able to activate the pineal glands 'seat of the soul'. You focus that third eye and it gives you in depth access to your emotions. Im guessing that when those things were brough up, it was anecdotal as opposed to an affirmation of ideas.




I had a really interesting tangent based on that line of thought about the universe being self-aware through humans and the real purpose of human existence was so that the universe could understand itself. Something about the universe being one connect, for lack of a better word, soul that first began as one substance and has been evolving and dividing ever since. Maybe I have it written down somewhere but I'm not sure.


That sounds like something written that id find more interesting than the stories were discussing...lol

[Jailblazers7]

Since I personally subscribe to a variation of that schtick, I didn't agree with the notions that Zooey was elaborating on but his explanation deviates from mine.. The bias makes my reading a contrarian type. Same goes for the Before Sunrise/Waking Life quote.. although in it, they are proving the point of the issues with believing in reincarnation. Which leads to the novels subject of meditation and connecting with that soul. The reason for their over-sensitivity is that they are maximizing the light of that soul. They are utilizing its essence far more than the people they are conflicting with in their society. Zooey spoke about the pineal gland in the first story, so the writer himself was hinting to the meditative belief of being able to activate the pineal glands 'seat of the soul'. You focus that third eye and it gives you in depth access to your emotions. Im guessing that when those things were brough up, it was anecdotal as opposed to an affirmation of ideas.

Interesting, I forgot about the pineal gland reference. I'd like to read up on that a bit because I hadn't realized the connection between meditation and the pineal gland. It takes a but of the mysticism out of it because the science types will just yell "it's just brain chemistry" but I think that misses the point.

[ZeN]

Interesting, I forgot about the pineal gland reference. I'd like to read up on that a bit because I hadn't realized the connection between meditation and the pineal gland. It takes a but of the mysticism out of it because the science types will just yell "it's just brain chemistry" but I think that misses the point.
Yeah there's a lot of interesting stuff behind the whole pineal gland/third eye subject.

The idea is that the pineal gland is a type of third eye that we have, which uses internal visualization. We tend not to use it at maximum capacity due to how we treat our bodies and how distracted we have become with modern society. Meditation serves as a way to wipe away all of those random thoughts and notions.. the so called multi-tasking as well. In clearing your mind, you can then live 'in the moment' and focus on the one thing during one time. This brings on a 'third eye' focus and clarity that we are typically unaccustomed to.

Its likened to when you place all of your attention on a film without distractions or outside thought stimuli. You find yourself in the moment and it allows you to become fully submerged in the content, become emotionally invested, and depending on the focus, feel as if the characters are authentic to reality. Yet if you watch a complex film with people distracting you... the personal mental investment is fragmented and becomes muddled.

Brain chemistry is a part of it seeing as how the pineal gland releases melatonin during sleep to aid sleep cycles and lucid dreaming. Also, they say its possible it produces DMT.

That doesn't mean that chemistry is all there is to it. There is the ability to harness the power of the mind beyond how we currently use it. Most times as a society we walk around as mindless zombies on auto pilot. Without realizing that if left unattended the mind becomes atrophied like any other muscle. It needs regular exercise to function at optimum levels and meditation is part of bringing the mental skills and abilities into focus.

[RidonKs]

sorry guys, been working like mad the past 48 hours. sucks that it's just the two of you. i'll have some time to contribute tonight. i messaged some people to see if anybody read it or was interested in reading it, only one message back from starface last week who said he might try to pick it up but he was really busy.

your skepticism early on might have been right zen.

[Stempel, HERB]

sorry guys, been working like mad the past 48 hours. sucks that it's just the two of you. i'll have some time to contribute tonight. i messaged some people to see if anybody read it or was interested in reading it, only one message back from starface last week who said he might try to pick it up but he was really busy.

your skepticism early on might have been right zen.

If you want this to take off, kick zen out. He's a moron. Nobody wants to have a discussion with him except jb cuz he's kinda forced to or abandon the idea entirely. . Dude hast zero charisma and sucks all the fun out of this type of exercise trying to have the correct answer by pilfering other people's thoughts from goodreads and amazon customer reviews. irondarts is cut from the same cloth.

This was designed for failure. Needs more vapid, dasher, booze, ljj, deuce, sharas, lebowsky... guys who can stand on their own with a flair. Not the smaller personalities who latch onto them.

This shit is a borefest. At least bruinlove, 9er and primetime would add another layer and the slow death wouldn't be so painful.

You would have found the time to finish this book if you were excited to see what the other people in the group were saying. The posters you rounded up so far? Not really screaming interesting. Why bother. The discussion waiting for you at the end of the book is no reward. May as well spend the time reading something you wanted to instead.

[ZeN]

If you want this to take off, kick zen out. He's a moron. Nobody wants to have a discussion with him except jb cuz he's kinda forced to or abandon the idea entirely. . Dude hast zero charisma and sucks all the fun out of this type of exercise trying to have the correct answer by pilfering other people's thoughts from goodreads and amazon customer reviews. irondarts is cut from the same cloth.

This was designed for failure. Needs more vapid, dasher, booze, ljj, deuce, sharas, lebowsky... guys who can stand on their own with a flair. Not the smaller personalities who latch onto them.

This shit is a borefest. At least bruinlove, 9er and primetime would add another layer and the slow death wouldn't be so painful.

You would have found the time to finish this book if you were excited to see what the other people in the group were saying. The posters you rounded up so far? Not really screaming interesting. Why bother. The discussion waiting for you at the end of the book is no reward. May as well spend the time reading something you wanted to instead.
:oldlol:

[Jailblazers7]

If this fails...which appears likely, I'll probably just revert back to the rate the last movie and what are you reading threads. I mostly wanted to start this group as a think/writing exercise which hasn't worked out well for me so far. Been a bit tough because I've been taking job interviews the last month and moving into a new apartment so it's been hectic.

Probably going to watch Boyhood this weekend so maybe I'll just write a Thorpe sized review of it in the rate the last movie thread.

[Stempel, HERB]

Thorpe sized review

Forgot about him. Guy thinks everyone else wants to read 10k words every time he hits the Submit Reply. That shit is tiresome and unnecessary. Kick him out too.

[RidonKs]

alright just responding to some of your guys' points for now


1. I find it kind of interesting that Salinger makes the Glass family to be the ideal human family in a way. Overprotective mother, proud father, and wildly talented/intelligent kids. All of the Glass children are gorgeous artists who have a strong sense of artistic integrity. But on some level they are all unhappy for one reason or another. Do you think Salinger was making some type of comment on the goal of human perfection?

i think this could well be the case. the most interesting aspect of the book to me was what little was said of the content s and b used to "intellectually raise" the youngest glass kids. and enough is said to make it worth the conversation. the list of quotes were all fascinating in their own way and the central importance of the philgrim book was particularly compelling. definitely worth exploring in depth as it seems salinger was very careful in his selection of name dropping and quotation.

and the fact that even as he resents his older brothers for turning he and his sister into freaks, z attempts in a similar way to influence f as she goes through her crisis. was the same motivation behind s and b attempting to design the perfect intellectual program and z using the majority of the book to figure out his sister?

i think this sort of thing is very common in philosophy and literature. how to raise the perfect child. this has elements of the republic in it, but rather than taking a societal lens as plato did, salinger takes discusses it through the family. which makes much more sense to the quest because of the overwhelming intimacy of family life. there are also too many historical examples to cite where a ruling group imposes its will on the general public "for its own good". how much that will concerns education is another story.


2. This ties into #1. Franny and Zooey claim that Seymour and Buddy ruined them in their childhood development because of the intense religious literature and highbrow art that they were essentially trained to enjoy. It was insinuated that Seymour and Buddy thought it was a better development strategy and would result in Franny and Zooey being "better" people. Do you think that type of development would/could be damaging to a child?

this is what i was getting at above and i think salinger would answer "of course is CAN be damaging, since the supposed teacher committed suicide" but perhaps with a caveat that there are pros and cons, risks and rewards, and maybe the conversation shouldn't be over right then and there.

i might be imposing myself though, some of my beliefs on salinger.


3. Salinger must have gotten his inspiration for the talk about Jesus from Emerson's Divinity School Address. Not sure about the importance of that but if you haven't read the Divinity School Address you should do so immediately.
i went to read this and found it required more of my attention than i had to dispose of. but i was nodding as i read the first few paragraphs haha

[RidonKs]

i emailed a couple of people, ljj, dresta, starface, sliver or however you spell his name. only the one response like i said. we need more people in general though lol clearly if there are only three of us here, quantity takes precedent over quality and already with only two people a decent conversation has hatched

[RidonKs]

The book is a god damn reflection of minutia and the mundane. It tip toes around intriguing subjects without having the god damn respect to follow through on the in depth analysis. It was too terse for my god damn taste. The prayer seeking enlightenment was something I wish was further explored. Frannys existential crises was to me the most alluring portion but it's also the god damned portion left in brevity. Everyone isn't obtuse.. so could we have gotten less over handed word bludgeoning?. I mostly didn't like it because it didn't god damn focus on subjects like mysticism, existentialism, despondency and personal conflict that it was tip toeing around.


Have I brought up the part where the stories are annoyingly filled with a plethora of God Dammit? We get it, you god dam feel strongly about something. 10-4 Roger That.
haha to the last part, i was getting into the dialect quite a bit tbh it felt like it brought me back to the good ol days that i never actually got to live.

zen i think the prayer seeking enlightenment is obviously the central element of the story but it doesn't just flatly tell it out. maybe jb said that in his response to you. it takes some work, work i haven't done yet, to figure out what salinger is really trying to say f's problem is. and the brief alludes to papa glass, not to mention the side conversations with mama glass, offer a terrific glimpse into how this family got to be what it is while still leaving room for interpretation. f's personal drama needs to be probed through her interactions with her boyfriend and her brother, and then the family needs to be explored by taking a careful look at this experiment s and b designed.

the fact that the glass kids are clearly as brilliant as they are and continue to dabble in religious/spiritual/mystical ideas is especially interesting and i think where say a hardcore atheist preacher would take huge exception.

[BoogieWoogieMan]

Took me a while to finish the book. I couldn't find the book itself and resorted to the pdf file JB sent us. I hate reading online, so I was moving at a snail's pace. I was finally able to find the book at my local library and finished the book in a day. Fantastic book! I'll try to add on to your discussions as best as I can.


1. I find it kind of interesting that Salinger makes the Glass family to be the ideal human family in a way. Overprotective mother, proud father, and wildly talented/intelligent kids. All of the Glass children are gorgeous artists who have a strong sense of artistic integrity. But on some level they are all unhappy for one reason or another. Do you think Salinger was making some type of comment on the goal of human perfection?

On the physical and material sense, the Glass family is the ideal one when you're looking at them from the outside. The type of family that mothers and fathers would point out and tell their own children to strive to be. I think Salinger does this purposely, because even though the Glass'es have all the qualification to be 'perfect', you can easily tell by the bathroom conversation that they're anything, but perfect. The children of the family have a strong urge to seek spiritual meaning in their life, and you can tell by the conversations they've had with their mother, who is not equipped at offering spiritual guidance to her soulfully deprived children. Zooey, Franny, Seymour, and Buddy were always constantly searching their books to find the proper knowledge that will give them wisdom to quench their inner turmoil.


and the fact that even as he resents his older brothers for turning he and his sister into freaks, z attempts in a similar way to influence f as she goes through her crisis. was the same motivation behind s and b attempting to design the perfect intellectual program and z using the majority of the book to figure out his sister?

I think the reason behind Zooey and Franny believe that their elder brothers turned them into 'Freaks', is because they can no longer deal with living in the mundane world, where gossip and expensive dining are the highlights of the day, and forced them to approach their views of reality with different eyes. I don't think Seymour and Buddy were designing the perfect program, but was trying to force their younger siblings to teach themselves spiritual knowledge. If the elder brothers would have just told them up front what they've learnt themselves, Zooey and Franny could have possibly brushed them off and choose to turn a blind eye on the matter (like their mother). By forcing them to seek the knowledge themselves, Zooey and Franny undergo the painful process of learning that is necessary (perhaps mandatory) to truly appreciate the achievement they accomplished (like when they figured out the true meaning behind the Fat Lady).


The book is a god damn reflection of minutia and the mundane. It tip toes around intriguing subjects without having the god damn respect to follow through on the in depth analysis. It was too terse for my god damn taste. The prayer seeking enlightenment was something I wish was further explored. Frannys existential crises was to me the most alluring portion but it's also the god damned portion left in brevity. Everyone isn't obtuse.. so could we have gotten less over handed word bludgeoning?. I mostly didn't like it because it didn't god damn focus on subjects like mysticism, existentialism, despondency and personal conflict that it was tip toeing around.

I would have also loved if the story dwell deeper into those subjects, but that's what the story was all about. These characters were having personal conflicts that were all based off of mysticism, existentialism, and despondency, but they didn't possess the tools (or a wise man) to help them solve their inner crisis. They are living in a particular society that doesn't care of such matters, so when they try to bring it up (Franny with her boyfriend and Zooey with his mother), the person they confided with would always brush them off as silly trifles. I saw this book as a struggle between the two characters trying to find a spiritual meaning to their lives without having a deep understanding on the subject as they are products of a superficial based society.


*I will say that Seymour and Buddy ended up being Zooey's and Franny's wise men (especially Seymour with his Fat Lady metaphor). I have a question for the three of you (and to anyone else that's reading this); why do you think Seymour ended up killing himself? I don't remember the story ever explaining it, and if it did, my bad and please tell me. If it didn't, what do you personal think the reason was? I've been trying to think of a reason, but I haven't been able to pin point the solution. I'd love to hear your opinions.



I had a really interesting tangent based on that line of thought about the universe being self-aware through humans and the real purpose of human existence was so that the universe could understand itself. Something about the universe being one connect, for lack of a better word, soul that first began as one substance and has been evolving and dividing ever since. Maybe I have it written down somewhere but I'm not sure.

This is a really interesting concept. I never thought of that before. Now you got me thinking some deep shit, JB! :oldlol:

[RidonKs]

Awesome BWG. I haven't read your post yet, I'm crazy busy right now moving my world and frantically running around but I'll probably post something else by Wednesday. I wanna go through the quotes listed and explore their connection to the characters in the glass family because my initial impression was that there was a whole hell of a lot there.

[BoogieWoogieMan]

Cool beans, bro. Take all the time you want to reply back. I know I surely did. :oldlol:

Btw, its BWM, not BWG! :rant

[RidonKs]

Cool beans, bro. Take all the time you want to reply back. I know I surely did. :oldlol:

Btw, its BWM, not BWG! :rant
BRMWG

[BoogieWoogieMan]

BRMWG

http://i.imgur.com/IT9tPaP.gif

[BoogieWoogieMan]

Well, can't say I didn't try... :ohwell:

R.I.P.

[Jailblazers7]

I think the reason behind Zooey and Franny believe that their elder brothers turned them into 'Freaks', is because they can no longer deal with living in the mundane world, where gossip and expensive dining are the highlights of the day, and forced them to approach their views of reality with different eyes. I don't think Seymour and Buddy were designing the perfect program, but was trying to force their younger siblings to teach themselves spiritual knowledge. If the elder brothers would have just told them up front what they've learnt themselves, Zooey and Franny could have possibly brushed them off and choose to turn a blind eye on the matter (like their mother). By forcing them to seek the knowledge themselves, Zooey and Franny undergo the painful process of learning that is necessary (perhaps mandatory) to truly appreciate the achievement they accomplished (like when they figured out the true meaning behind the Fat Lady).

Yeah, I think the root of both Franny and Zooey's issues are that they are in a constant search for some grand transcendence but also seek the traditional pleasures of the Western world. They want to feel the simplistically and oneness of Eastern monks but are held back by their joy for modern pleasures (novelistic fiction, theatre, etc). It creates a sort of cognitive dissonance within their mind because the two can't really exist together. Both seek to please the audience desperately and want to create great art but that egotistical desire comes into conflict with their religious notions. Franny's exile and insistence on the prayer is her reaction to this conflict. She feels that if she devotes herself to one direction she can achieve some type of peace and spiritual happiness. Zooey is able to free himself from the problem by realizing that there is some spiritual connection between the audience and artists and between everyone in society because of god's pervasiveness. The realization that the idea of a grand spirituality is not at odds with the modern human society is a way to free themselves from the tug of war within themselves.

I think it might be some sort of commentary by Salinger about the conflict that the Western world has created within individuals and might be inclined to use it to describe the decline in spirituality during the last 50 years. It's kind of a common criticism but Western culture roots us too much within our own society to allow for transcendent spiritualism. But nevermind, I hate to attribute a line of thought to an artist just because it fits my inclination. That is just my interpretation of the story.

[RidonKs]

Well, can't say I didn't try... :ohwell:

R.I.P.
tomorrow i'll have something

[RidonKs]

man i've been flipping through the book and my notes and the posts in this thread trying to concentrate my thought and i'm having a hard time. there really is a ton of ground to cover here. i really disagree with you zen, i think what's offered in this short book is just ripe for exploration and investigation. i think this book was very carefully written.

a few topics to make note of and maybe somebody wants to contribute something

- the use of the first person at the beginning of the zooey section introducing the two new characters.... the question becomes, who is the author? is he a glass brother? is this autobiographical in a way? my money is on it being buddy but it's hard to say.

- the difference between zooey and franny in terms of how they have responded to / coped with their older brothers' education for them... they exchange many words on this

- in particular and related to the point above, how did their religious/spiritual coping mechanisms differ and how will they bear out in the rest of their lives

- the education itself: begins with the four great vows introduced on pg 90 of my copy

1) however innumerable beings are, i vow to save them
2) however inexhaustible the passions are, i vow to extinguish them
3) however immeasurable the dharmas are, i vow to master them
4) however incomparable the buddha-truth is, i vow to attain it

these are clearly key. and it would take a long discussion incorporating all of the quotes zooey reads on the big door board to really try to understand the fundamental framework of this so called "education"

what BWM said about a conflict of values, between deep spirituality and hedonistic pleasure and cultural experience i guess (hopefully im not misrepresenting) comes to a head reading those four commandments imo. they conflict with one another and it makes it impossible to feel as if you're fulfilling your duties. and of course values conflict all the time; its what makes for a good dilemma.

just read your post jb and you appear to be saying the exact same thing

- i think how the members of the glass family approach other people is very significant and there are a number of zooey quotes complaining about this mundane or conventional director he's working with or franny wining about the university lifestyle. i'd like to try to get more into this. zooey is clearly an egomaniac which is important.

- COME BACK TO THE FAMILY

this caps off the end of the book and probably underlines zooey's most convincing argument about franny's breakdown. where did she go when things were tough? she knows exactly where she went.

quote from pb 124


that was the worst. what happened was, i got the idea in my head - and i could not get it out - that college was just one more dopey, inane place in the world dedicated to piling up treasure on earth and everything. i mean, treasure is treasure for heavens sake. whats the difference whether the treasure is money, or property, or even culture, or even just plain knowledge. it all seemed like exactly the same thing to me, if you take off the wrapping - and it still does! sometimes i think knowledge - when its knowledge for knowledge's sake, anyway - is worst of all. the least excusable, certainly.

i'd like to point anybody reading this in the direction of this david foster wallace commencement speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI). perhaps you've heard it. near the middle/end he addresses with really keen insight the idea of idolatry. what do you worship? money - you'll never be rich enough. beauty - your looks will fade. intelligence - you'll always worry who is smarter than you. god - am i abiding by all of his commandments?

i think there's a connection to be made here but i'm a little too buzzed and undisciplined atm to make it with any real clarity.

anyway yea let's keep this going. doesn't matter if there are large gaps between posts, not like the ideas we're discussing will wither away or anything.

[RidonKs]

zooey's dream is also worth careful consideration. as is the final "fat lady" quote from seymour that zooey references near the end.

soooooo much in this book. it was a fabulous recommendation jb, truly.