The GOAT List: 2014 Edition

[WillC]

I'd have Yardley and Johnston over Max.

Me too, although I'm glad to see Zaslofsky getting some recognition.

I'm interested to see where Joe Fulks ranks. One of the all-time greats IMO.

[G.O.A.T]

I'd have Yardley and Johnston over Max. Them playing with BAA and NBL together some years he gradually got worse when the leagues got together.


Me too, although I'm glad to see Zaslofsky getting some recognition.

I'm interested to see where Joe Fulks ranks. One of the all-time greats IMO.

Within the tiers, there is a lot of fluidity with my rankings. I could probably be talked into almost any order within most of them if I've done a good job. As to this trio, I tend to agree with you guys, especially having discussed these players more frequently as of late due to our HOF project. I think if I did the rankings today I'd have Yardley, Johnston and Zaslofsky.

I may have just read something about Max that made me want to give him a bump up the day I finalized the rankings for this years list.

Fulks is a bit higher, without spoiling too much, inside the top 100. Though he was clearly a product of his era, I feel like he elevated the standard for forwards almost as much as Mikan did for centers. Few players were ever as great in their time as Jumpin' Joe Fulks.

That's as always to both you guys for all your help and support with my endeavors online and for pushing this project along with your constant involvement, it is much appreciated.

[G.O.A.T]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/walt-bellamy/walt-bellamy-608.jpg
#121 Walter Jones Bellamy

Vitals: 6'11" 245 lbs
Tier Classification: Elite Talents: Borderline Alphas
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 1961-1975 (10 prime)
Primary Role(s) and Averages:
Best player on bad teams (3 years; 29-16-2 on 52/66)
#1/#2/#3 on borderline playoff teams (7 years; 18-13-2 on 52/62)


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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]Few players are as difficult to rank as Walt Bellamy. Surely some will think this is way too low and I

[L.Kizzle]

If you thought the SLAM 500 has him ranked too high the SLAM top 75 from 2003 has him ranked at #35 right in front of David Robinson.

[G.O.A.T]

If you thought the SLAM 500 has him ranked too high the SLAM top 75 from 2003 has him ranked at #35 right in front of David Robinson.

Where would you rank him?

How does he fit in among:

Sikma
Mutombo
Johnston
Beaty
Laimbeer
Issel
Daugherty
Yao
Mourning
Daniels
Lanier

just better or worse if you like...

[L.Kizzle]

Where would you rank him?

How does he fit in among:

Sikma
Mutombo
Johnston
Beaty
Laimbeer
Issel
Daugherty
Yao
Mourning
Daniels
Lanier

just better or worse if you like...
Mutombo Issel Mourning Daniels and Lanier definitely over Bellamy.

Beaty I wanna say they are dead even.

Sikma Laimbeer Brad D and Yao gotta think on those. Though I wanna say he's over Yao and Brad.

[L.Kizzle]

GOAT, where would you rank these player ... assuming they didn't make it inside your top 120?



Willie Naulls
Wayne Embry
Guy Rodgers
Larry Costello
Dick Barnett
Don Ohl
Van Arsdale twins
Calvin Murphy
Rudy T.
Randy Smith
World B. Free
Reggie Theus
Jeff Rulland
Kiki Vandeweghe
Fat Lever
Alvin Robertson
Terry Porter
Otis Thorpe
Charles Oakley
Mark Jackson
Dan Majerle
Allan Houston
Jamal Mashburn
Steve Francis

[G.O.A.T]

http://prohoopshistory.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/zelmo-beaty.jpg
#120 Zelmo Beaty Jr.

Vitals: 6

[G.O.A.T]

GOAT, where would you rank these player ... assuming they didn't make it inside your top 120?



Willie Naulls (284)
Wayne Embry (220)
Guy Rodgers (240)
Larry Costello (274)
Dick Barnett (300)
Don Ohl (313)
Van Arsdale twins (328 &329, Dick first)
Calvin Murphy (242)
Rudy T. (214, second player out)
Randy Smith (269)
World B. Free (270)
Reggie Theus (273)
Jeff Rulland (289)
Kiki Vandeweghe (267)
Fat Lever (216, almost made the list)
Alvin Robertson (245)
Terry Porter (222)
Otis Thorpe (223)
Charles Oakley (225) -that was a pretty impressive run there.
Mark Jackson (234)
Dan Majerle (295)
Allan Houston (238)
Jamal Mashburn (239)
Steve Francis (213, first player out)

Also nice work on the Beaty. Bellamy neck and neck conclusion. I think they are about as even as it gets.

A few others with Houston ties...

Robert Horry #251
Eddie Johnson #325, still love that top of the key three to win versus Utah.
Kenny Smith #334
Kevin Willis #372
Sleepy Floyd #373
John Lucas #379
Shane Battier #380
Mario Elie #451-#489
Robert Reid #451-#489
Vernon Maxwell #490-#522
Don Cheany #523-#571
Cuttino Mobley #523-#571
Mike Newlin #523-#571
Stu Lantz #523-#571

[L.Kizzle]

What gets Bellamy so high on list (still can't figure out his #35 ranking in SLAM in 2003) is his sexy numbers his first four seasons. 28/17 is damn sexy (his 32/19 as a rookie is still 2nd all time behind Wilts 38/27.) But after he's down to about 16/11 which is around Zelmo Beaty career avg.

Speaking of Wilt, I think his battles with Wilt showed that he wasn't anywhere near his lever. In his first games, Wilt said he wouldn't let him score in the first half and that's just what he did, Wilt blocked his shot 9 times that half. As the second half started, Wilt than said "now, you can score." Wilt also dropped most of his high scoring games on Bellamy.

Wilt 73 and 36 vs Bellamy. Wilt dropped at least five 60+ point games on Bellamy. He also used to dominate him at the Rucker Park Tournaments in Harlem.

[Rizko]

Very good topic GOAT. I really like this stuff. Some of the few worthwhile posts that actually happen on this forum.

I don't post much anymore but when I did I was pretty into doing the Peak NBA drafts. I was a lot younger then (only 23 now) and didn't have nearly as much knowledge of basketball history and players as I do now.

Your topic reminded me of them. I would start one myself but I have my doubts that people would join if I started one, but I believe is a poster like you, kizzle or fplii who has a much bigger cache of respect it would take off.

Your current list seems to be a little more geared towards a players legacy while a peak draft is more about skill so while it is a kinda similar theme it has its own set of criteria and tests a posters ability to properly assess talent, chemistry, and overall fit of a team.

I would really enjoy if someone were to create the topic and if we got some legit posters to be involved in it and I think it would be a good way to discuss the xs and os of a team and a general idea of a teams construction.

I think there should be 10 players and 10 rounds. We choose 9 players and 1 coach. When the draft is done there are two options to choose a winner. We can either all make a post explaining why our team is the best and then a vote off happens with the active participants. No one can vote for themselves. They vote for three people and the number 1 vote gets 3 points, 2nd place 2 and 3rd place 1. Highest score wins and in the event of a tie we have a second round of voting.

The other option is we have a "play-in round" that leads to a playoffs. The voting happens in a similar manner for the play in round and the 8 highest vote getters join the playoff bracket. (with the highest vote getter on one side of the bracket and the lowest as the 4 seed on the same side, 2nd highest as the # 1 on the other side of the bracket and the 2nd lowest vote getter as the 4 seed on the other side. In the event of a 2 or 3 way tie the player with the most 1st place votes gets the higher side). Once the bracket has been set we have the playoffs where the high seed posts why he think his team would beat the low seed and then the low seed counters and then the high seed gets a 2nd counter (the high seed gets 2 times to argue there case as a way to simulate home court advantage and to reward someone for quality drafting).

As far as the rules that we play the game under I think it should be a mix of modern and oldschool. We bring handchecking back. We remove the 5 second back to the basket rule and possibly remove the 3 second rule (Im leery of bringing it back because I feel it would start to put the balance of power a little more towards post players and it would also hinder the effectiveness of dribble drive players).

I want to get a gauge from posters to see if there willing to participate. I truthfully really want to do it and I know kizzle used to always play when we were doing it so I hope he would be interested. If no one else wants to create the topic and be the comish I will

Seeding for drafting will be done by a random number generator. You get assigned a number based off spot you signed up for the draft (so the 7th person would be the 7th number in the number generator).

Anyone who has an interest in doing this please reply to this post (I don't log into my account often so I wont notice a pm immediately)

I hope to generate interest.

[Rizko]

Sorry for the double post.

I also think we could do the draft in two ways. Just a general all of NBA, ABA, Older league and Euroleauge draft.

The second way would be to do it by decades, which is how we did it the first time. It was something to the effect of peaks 200s draft, peak 90's draft etc....

People who are interested should voice what type they want to do. We could do one for each decade back to the 70s or 60s (depending on how many people feel they have enough player knowledge to go that far back. I think that after the 70s I would be a little hard pressed and even the 70s is kinda pushing it)

If we do the decades version we should then do an alltime version to cap it off but doing a decades version would require a longer time commitment then a just a one off alltime version

[fpliii]

Hey G.O.A.T, have you ever done a top 10 GOAT streetballers list?

[Rizko]

I don't want to pester you fpliii. I just sent you a pm. IDK if ur box is full. Would you please read my previous posts and if your interested help me promote the draft idea I have. I think there pretty fun and worthwhile discussions. As I said in my pm I would send you a link to a previous draft to give you an idea of how they work.

I also pmed GOAT and kizzle and would truthfully appreciate a reply, even if it was a "Nahh I'm good on dat bruh"

[fpliii]

I don't want to pester you fpliii. I just sent you a pm. IDK if ur box is full. Would you please read my post and if your interested help me promote the draft idea I have. I think there pretty fun and worthwhile discussions. As I said in my pm I would send you a link to a previous draft to give you an idea of how they work.
No worries, I replied.

As I said, I'm not sure how of much value I'd be since my knowledge of the 70s/80s is very, very limited (only started watching in the early 90s, and most of the research I've done is of the late 50s-early 70s), but it sounds like a ton of fun, and I'd like to follow the threads, and possibly participate in some form if I feel comfortable with the eras discussed.

[Rizko]

Like I said in my pm don't worry too much about having deep knowledge of a specific era. Im thinking we could do a peak current player draft and a peak all-time draft to make it as inclusive as possible. If we do a current draft we use current rules and if we do an alltime draft we use a mix of rules (laid out in my first post).

It is basically choosing 90 players and 10 coaches altogether so it doesn't require someone to dig TOO deep in looking stuff up and if someone doesn't feel comfortable choosing an older player then just stick with picking players that you know.

I don't think choosing the best players is as important as choosing the correct players who fit together. For instance a lot of people choose guys like bruce bowen who isn't a top 100 player skill wise but his skillset is very conductive to team basketball so its sometimes better to choose a guy like him then to choose a guy like hayes, who has more skill but doesn't really fit as neatly into a team construct.

[BoutPractice]

Rizko > Yeah, I think that's a very good idea. Team construction is always a fun exercise, since you also need to consider issues of fit, how you'd coach them, potential personality clashes etc.

[magnax1]

Very good topic GOAT. I really like this stuff. Some of the few worthwhile posts that actually happen on this forum.

I don't post much anymore but when I did I was pretty into doing the Peak NBA drafts. I was a lot younger then (only 23 now) and didn't have nearly as much knowledge of basketball history and players as I do now.

Your topic reminded me of them. I would start one myself but I have my doubts that people would join if I started one, but I believe is a poster like you, kizzle or fplii who has a much bigger cache of respect it would take off.

Your current list seems to be a little more geared towards a players legacy while a peak draft is more about skill so while it is a kinda similar theme it has its own set of criteria and tests a posters ability to properly assess talent, chemistry, and overall fit of a team.

I would really enjoy if someone were to create the topic and if we got some legit posters to be involved in it and I think it would be a good way to discuss the xs and os of a team and a general idea of a teams construction.

I think there should be 10 players and 10 rounds. We choose 9 players and 1 coach. When the draft is done there are two options to choose a winner. We can either all make a post explaining why our team is the best and then a vote off happens with the active participants. No one can vote for themselves. They vote for three people and the number 1 vote gets 3 points, 2nd place 2 and 3rd place 1. Highest score wins and in the event of a tie we have a second round of voting.

The other option is we have a "play-in round" that leads to a playoffs. The voting happens in a similar manner for the play in round and the 8 highest vote getters join the playoff bracket. (with the highest vote getter on one side of the bracket and the lowest as the 4 seed on the same side, 2nd highest as the # 1 on the other side of the bracket and the 2nd lowest vote getter as the 4 seed on the other side. In the event of a 2 or 3 way tie the player with the most 1st place votes gets the higher side). Once the bracket has been set we have the playoffs where the high seed posts why he think his team would beat the low seed and then the low seed counters and then the high seed gets a 2nd counter (the high seed gets 2 times to argue there case as a way to simulate home court advantage and to reward someone for quality drafting).

As far as the rules that we play the game under I think it should be a mix of modern and oldschool. We bring handchecking back. We remove the 5 second back to the basket rule and possibly remove the 3 second rule (Im leery of bringing it back because I feel it would start to put the balance of power a little more towards post players and it would also hinder the effectiveness of dribble drive players).

I want to get a gauge from posters to see if there willing to participate. I truthfully really want to do it and I know kizzle used to always play when we were doing it so I hope he would be interested. If no one else wants to create the topic and be the comish I will

Seeding for drafting will be done by a random number generator. You get assigned a number based off spot you signed up for the draft (so the 7th person would be the 7th number in the number generator).

Anyone who has an interest in doing this please reply to this post (I don't log into my account often so I wont notice a pm immediately)

I hope to generate interest.
I'd be up for this definitely.

[G.O.A.T]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aJjre-i5jVQ/0.jpg
#119 Mitchell James Richmond III

Vitals: 6

[Gotterdammerung]

Run TMC should never have been broken up. :facepalm

One wonders if they stayed together, would the Warriors still get the chance to draft Chris Webber in 1993?

Now that would have been totally insane, a more talented version of Sacramento Kings circa 2000. :hammerhead:

[L.Kizzle]

Run TMC should never have been broken up. :facepalm

One wonders if they stayed together, would the Warriors still get the chance to draft Chris Webber in 1993?

Now that would have been totally insane, a more talented version of Sacramento Kings circa 2000. :hammerhead:
I don't think so. Sprewell came in the season before. Unless they received the first pick from the Richmond/Owens deal.

They did get Chris Gatling the year Rock was traded. He was decent big, became an All-Star. Hi Shawn Kemp!

[L.Kizzle]

Hey G.O.A.T, have you ever done a top 10 GOAT streetballers list?
Jackie Jackson
Earl Manigualt
Pee Wee Kirkland
Joe Hammond
Fly Williams
Herman Helicopter
Bill The Kid Harris
Raymond Lewis
Hook Mitchell

NBA Players
Wilt Chamberlain
Lew Alcindor
Dr. J
Black Jesus
Nate the Skate
Charlie Scott
Elgin Baylor
Rafer Alston

[G.O.A.T]

http://cdn1.bloguin.com/crossoverchronicles/wp-content/uploads/sites/18/2013/02/dikembe-mutombo-finger.jpg
#118 Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo

Vitals: 7

[L.Kizzle]

Deke wad expecting him to be slightly higher on the list. Great player great man great taunting finger wag. If he was in his prime now who would you take him or Dwight?

[G.O.A.T]

http://rise24.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/carter_vince441_262.jpg
#117 Vincent Lamar Carter Jr.

Vitals: 6’6” 215 lbs
Tier Classification: Elite Talents: Borderline Alphas
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 1998-current (12 prime)
Primary Role(s) and Averages: 23-5-4-1-1 on 45/38/80
Best player on borderline playoff teams (5 seasons; 25-5-4-1-1 on 45/39/79)
#1/#2/#3 on borderline playoff teams (5 seasons; 23-6-5-1-1 on 45/37/81)
#3/#4 on playoff teams (2 seasons; 15-4-3-1 on 43/36/80)

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After he brought the house down in February of 2000 with an electrifying performance in the Slam Dunk Contest, Vince Carter was dubbed Half Man, Half Amazing by Shaquille O’Neal, a fitting and flattering title. Long before he ascended to greatness on the NBA stage however, the comparisons to Michael Jordan had begun. A 6’6” high flyer from North Carolina, there alone you have enough to get the pulse moving, but Vince was never going to be Michael and he was never going to try to be. His rookie season 1998-99, the year after Jordan’s second retirement, was a launching pad for him as he elevated himself on the court and in the minds of fans winning rookie of the year and capturing the popular vote with a myriad of fabulous in-game slams. Carter had players all over the league taking notice including teammate Charles Oakley and former MVP Larry Bird who both agreed “he’s going to be unstoppable when he adds a jump shot.”

The next season he added that jump shot and he was close to unstoppable on offense. That along with the rise of third year HS to Pro star Tracy McGrady (a distant Cousin of carter’s) made Toronto a playoff team for the first time in franchise history. They were swept by the Knicks in 2000 and that offseason McGrady bolted for Florida in free agency. Carter spent the summer playing fantastic in the Olympics and seemed to be showing a new edge. Something Antonio Davis felt he had long needed; "Vince needs to find something that's going to motivate him to be as aggressive as he is when he's mad. Because when he's not, he's a totally different player." The next season Carter was Carter’s best (28 ppg 6 rpg 4 apg), second team all-NBA and the Raptors beat the Knicks before falling to Philadelphia in seven brutal games. Carter scored 35, 50 and 39 points in the teams three wins, but was held to 22 ppg in the four losses on below 35% shooting. In 2001-02 the Raptors lost 38 year old Charles Oakley to retirement and replaced him with 39 year old Hakeem Olajuwon. A knee injury ended Carter’s season prematurely with the Raptors playing .500 ball. They lost in the playoffs, without Carter, to the Pistons in five games. That was the beginning of the end in Toronto. Carter missed half of the 2002-03 season and Toronto bottomed out with a 24-58 record.

Though Carter wanted the Raptors to use the 4th pick of the draft as trade bait to acquire a veteran to help replace Oakley, Olajuwon and Davis, the retired big men from the Raptors playoff teams, but instead they kept the pick and took Chris Bosh frustrating Carter. They would trade for Jalen Rose early in the 2004 season and with Carter fighting through injuries they finished just 33-49, VC shot a career-low 41% from the field and the fans frustration was starting to match his. The 2004-05 season spelled the end for Carter in Canada; he mopped his way through 20 games listlessly, continues his theme of not attacking the basket or seeming even the least bit interested. He was traded to New Jersey just before Christmas and to an extent revitalized his career with the Nets. Teamed with Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson the Nets were one of the leagues top fast breaking teams. In nearly five seasons with the Nets Carter averaged 24-6-5, the Nets won as many as 49 games and made the playoff three consecutive years twice advancing to the second round. Carter was clearly filling up the stat sheets, but as he faded further and further from MVP and all-NBA consideration it was clear critics were not willing to forgive and forget his Toronto days.

In 2009 with the Nets facing rebuilding Carter was traded to Orlando where the Magic were coming off their first NBA finals appearance in 15 years. Accepting a smaller role (31 mpg) Carter averaged 16.6 points for Orlando (second on the team) and made it to the conference finals for the first time in his career. He struggled however against the Celtics shooting just 29-79 from the field as Boston won in six games. He spent the next season splitting time between Phoenix and Orlando before moving on to Dallas where he has played the past three seasons. Though he never had the same individual impact in the later phases of his career, Carter’s longevity is a testament to the fact that he is more than just a scorer. Carter now ranks 30th all-time in scoring, he’s in the top 50 in games and minutes played and he may not be done yet.

Resume: 16 seasons and counting - 8x all-star, 2x all-NBA, 6x top ten PPG, 1x top ten 3ptm, 2x top ten PER, 2x top ten WS

-1999 Rookie of the Year
-2000 Slam Dunk Champion (Greatest performance ever)
-Top Vote Getter for All-Star Game Three times

What Makes Him Elite: Few players have ever had the combined skill and athleticism on Vince Carter. In his first three seasons he was on the fast track to Superstardom but was derailed by immaturity and the frustrating nature of trying to win as the man in the NBA. No one else in his era brought the type of above the rim excitement a young Carter did as he transformed the Raptors into a legit NBA team for the first time. When he added a three-point shot and improved his passing and later his defense he had all the requisite skills to last in the NBA and now with 17 years of double digit scoring under his belt, he’s among the company of Reggie Miller and Ray Allen in terms of longevity at the shooting guard position.

What are his Weaknesses/Limitations: Carter had all the tools to do so, but never became an elite player. In 2000 he was considered a better player than Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant, 2 years later he wasn’t even in the discussion. He never could handle the pressure/responsibility of being a superstar. He sulked in Toronto after things went bad, was accused and later admitted that he had not played hard a lot of times. At first his weaknesses were considered his outside shooting and playmaking, he addressed both over the course of his career but lost some of his strengths in the process; Carter developed a much needed jump shot during his second season but abandoned his basket attacking in the subsequent years. His playmaking in New Jersey and revitalized energy on the break came at the expense of his defense and the Nets were hardly more successful than Raptors despite a more talented roster. The worst thing about Carter is that you’ll remember him for what he could have been instead of what he was.



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[L.Kizzle]

VC gets such a bad rap for being a great player.

[trabash]

Wow, surprised to see them this early. I expected both especially Mutombo a lot higher. He was one of the best defensive players of all time in his prime, his resume proofs that.

[G.O.A.T]

VC gets such a bad rap for being a great player.

A great player yes, but he brought a lot of his criticism on himself. No to mention his history of no show in elimination games. He's numbers from 2000-2010 in playoff elimination games

13.2 ppg
3.8 rpg
4.9 apg
.371 fg%

Since then

10.3 ppg
6.0 rpg
2.0 apg
.393 fg%

[L.Kizzle]

A great player yes, but he brought a lot of his criticism on himself. No to mention his history of no show in elimination games. He's numbers from 2000-2010 in playoff elimination games

13.2 ppg
3.8 rpg
4.9 apg
.371 fg%

Since then

10.3 ppg
6.0 rpg
2.0 apg
.393 fg%
He had good games vs Sixers and Heat.

[G.O.A.T]

Hi Shawn Kemp!


http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_article_image/egikcbc1mwt4eux88fid.jpg
#116 Shawn T. Kemp

Vitals: 6

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Deke at 118:biggums: :biggums: he should be at least top 50 this list is sht:facepalm

[G.O.A.T]

Deke at 118:biggums: :biggums: he should be at least top 50 this list is sht:facepalm

As strong as your argument is, I have an even better counterpoint...No.

Looks like I win this time.

Mutombo is certainly not a top fifty player all-time. He never led a team past the second round, he was never an MVP candidate...without being elite as the leader of a team or as an individual player you're not getting in the top 50.

[G.O.A.T]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/adrian-dantley/adrian-dantley-608.jpg
#115 Adrian Delano Dantley

Vitals: 6

[L.Kizzle]

Dam you Jim Mcilvaine. You ruined a good thing.

Kemp might have been my favorite player in the mid-90s. It was between him and Penny Hardaway.

I have a feeling A'mare might be next, I'd take Kemp over him.

[Gotterdammerung]

Dam you Jim Mcilvaine. You ruined a good thing.

Kemp might have been my favorite player in the mid-90s. It was between him and Penny Hardaway.

I have a feeling A'mare might be next, I'd take Kemp over him.
Yes I too grew up watching Kemp mature from a raw talent in 1991 to a dominant force in the 1996 Finals.

He's better than Amare, a much better defender and rebounder, tho Amare was slightly better on offense.

[fpliii]

Great writeups since I last checked in G.O.A.T. :applause:


Jackie Jackson
Earl Manigualt
Pee Wee Kirkland
Joe Hammond
Fly Williams
Herman Helicopter
Bill The Kid Harris
Raymond Lewis
Hook Mitchell

NBA Players
Wilt Chamberlain
Lew Alcindor
Dr. J
Black Jesus
Nate the Skate
Charlie Scott
Elgin Baylor
Rafer Alston
Thanks!

[L.Kizzle]

I think Adrian Dantley is far too low. He was too dominant of a scorer to not even crack the top 100? Yeah, his Jazz weren't winning a lot early on but they started to make the playoffs his finals seasons there.

In the post he was basically Kevin McHale but 6 inches shorter (and weaker defense.)

His seasons over 25 ppg (29.6 to be exact) and to go along with 6.7 rpg and 3.7 apg.

79-80 Adrian Dantley (28.0 ppg on 58.0%)

80-81 Adrian Dantley (30.7 ppg on 55.9%)

81-82 Adrian Dantley (30.3 ppg on 57.0%)

82-83 Adrian Dantley (30.7 ppg on 58.0%)

83-84 Adrian Dantley (30.6 ppg on 55.8%)

84-85 Adrian Dantley (26.6 ppg on 53.1%)

85-86 Adrian Dantley (29.8 ppg on 56.7)


That is ridiculous for a 6'4 small forward.

[G.O.A.T]

http://nbaweblog.com/photos/suns/images/original/Amare-Stoudemire-_2D00_-Phoenix.aspx
#114 Amar'e Carsares Stoudemire

Vitals: 6

[thabisyo]

As strong as your argument is, I have an even better counterpoint...No.

Looks like I win this time.

Mutombo is certainly not a top fifty player all-time. He never led a team past the second round, he was never an MVP candidate...without being elite as the leader of a team or as an individual player you're not getting in the top 50.
:roll:

Ha ha I love that answer

[G.O.A.T]

http://www.notinhalloffame.com/UserFiles/Image/article_images/Basketball/37.%20Paul%20Westphal.jpg
#113 Paul Douglas Westphal

Vitals: 6

[fpliii]

Wonder if Big Ben makes the top 100.

[L.Kizzle]

I'd switch Amar'e and Kemp. Westphal is hard to rank but good seeing him this high up.

[DatAsh]

First of all, I just want to say I appreciate this project greatly and read every bit. Thank you for putting in the time to share this. I can't imagine how much work goes into a project like this.

One thing I see that I'm not sure I agree with is Mutombo's placement.

I'm a huge believer in guys like Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, and Dikembe Mutombo - guys who's impact goes way beyond the stat sheet.

I see Rodman as somewhere in that 35-50 range, and Wallace somewhere in the 55-70 range. I'm sure most would say I overrate Dennis Rodman, and maybe that's the case. Almost all of the other players likely in that 35-50 range outclass him on an individual basis, but I just don't see very many situations - in any era - where I'm taking a guy like Sam Jones, Hal Greer or Tony Parker over Rodman. I could even see myself taking Rodman over someone like Drexler in certain circumstances; the second 3-peat Bulls are a one such circumstance.

My logic tells me there's not that much that separates Rodman from a guy like Wallace.

- Rodman is the GOAT rebounder(above Wilt or Russell), but Wallace isn't that far behind
- Rodman brings more intangibles imo(energy, hustle, spirit), but I tend to hold Wallace in high regards there as well
- Rodman was a more versatile defender(only guy I've ever seen that was a terror on the perimeter and also a suitable cover for Shaq), but Wallace was a better interior defender

Similarly, I struggle to see what separates Wallace from Mutombo. Wallace has some of the same advantages over Mutombo that Rodman has over him, but I see less of a gap between Wallace and Mutombo than I do Rodman and Wallace. Neither Rodman nor Wallace were really better defenders than Mutombo. I think they give you more energy, hustle, and intangibles(Rodman more-so than Wallace), but Mutombo was also capable of being a somewhat decent 3rd option.

Not saying you're wrong, as I'm sure you've spent much more time thinking about this than I have, but what separates Mutombo from guys like Wallace and Rodman in your mind? I'm hoping your answer isn't "Nothing" as I think dropping either of those other two guys outside of the top 90 or so would be drastically underselling their value to a championship caliber team - especially Rodman.

[L.Kizzle]

First of all, I just want to say I appreciate this project greatly and read every bit. Thank you for putting in the time to share this. I can't imagine how much work goes into a project like this.

One thing I see that I'm not sure I agree with is Mutombo's placement.

I'm a huge believer in guys like Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, and Dikembe Mutombo - guys who's impact goes way beyond the stat sheet.

I see Rodman as somewhere in that 35-50 range, and Wallace somewhere in the 55-70 range. I'm sure most would say I overrate Dennis Rodman, and maybe that's the case. Almost all of the other players likely in that 35-50 range outclass him on an individual basis, but I just don't see very many situations - in any era - where I'm taking a guy like Sam Jones, Hal Greer or Tony Parker over Rodman. I could even see myself taking Rodman over someone like Drexler in certain circumstances; the second 3-peat Bulls are a one such circumstance.

My logic tells me there's not that much that separates Rodman from a guy like Wallace.

- Rodman is the GOAT rebounder(above Wilt or Russell), but Wallace isn't that far behind
- Rodman brings more intangibles imo(energy, hustle, spirit), but I tend to hold Wallace in high regards there as well
- Rodman was a more versatile defender(only guy I've ever seen that was a terror on the perimeter and also a suitable cover for Shaq), but Wallace was a better interior defender

Similarly, I struggle to see what separates Wallace from Mutombo. Wallace has some of the same advantages over Mutombo that Rodman has over him, but I see less of a gap between Wallace and Mutombo than I do Rodman and Wallace. Neither Rodman nor Wallace were really better defenders than Mutombo. I think they give you more energy, hustle, and intangibles(Rodman more-so than Wallace), but Mutombo was also capable of being a somewhat decent 3rd option.

Not saying you're wrong, as I'm sure you've spent much more time thinking about this than I have, but what separates Mutombo from guys like Wallace and Rodman in your mind? I'm hoping your answer isn't "Nothing" as I think dropping either of those other two guys outside of the top 90 or so would be drastically underselling their value to a championship caliber team - especially Rodman.
I agree about Deke.

Mutombo was part of the biggest upset in NBA history. Knocking out the #1 64 win seed (without looking it up, I think they won 64 games.) A lot of folks had them at the least coming out of the West.

Deke didn't have the teams that Wallace and Rodman had. Even then, he has more All-Star appearances than both combined, the same amount of DPOYs as Wallace, more All-NBA teams than Rodman, same amount of rebounding titles as Wallace. Three blocked shots titles. He avg double figure in points 11 seasons peaking at over 16 ppg. Rodman did it once right over 11 ppg and Wallaces high in PPG is 9.7. Deke has 6 All-D teams, and that's with battling Olajuwon, Robinson and Zo (and up and coming Ben Wallace.)

Before he got to Philly, his best teammates were Steve Smith and Mookie Blaylock.

I have him right inside the top 100.

[trabash]

Bump in hopes to revive this thread. Would love to see how your list turns out

[G.O.A.T]

It is too frustrating to type with one hand and still too painful to use, two. Very soon I'll be going at this list and finishing it (without full bios for the top 100) by the start of the NBA season. 3-5 players a day 5-6 days a week during October.

Thanks for the support.

[kshutts1]

First of all, I just want to say I appreciate this project greatly and read every bit. Thank you for putting in the time to share this. I can't imagine how much work goes into a project like this.

One thing I see that I'm not sure I agree with is Mutombo's placement.

I'm a huge believer in guys like Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, and Dikembe Mutombo - guys who's impact goes way beyond the stat sheet.


Shortened the quote just because it takes up too much space. Hope you don't mind, especially since I'll be referencing it as a whole, rather than specific parts.

Rodman, Big Ben, and Mutombo would rank higher on a "I need to win a championship" lists than they would a "greatest player ever" list.

Judging by the title, and GOAT can correct me if I'm wrong, it looks like he's attempting to rank players based on GOAT status, and not how they'd fit into a championship team or fill a necessary role.

If I were to draft an actual team, I'd pick Rodman in the 4th-6th round, assuming 10-14 teams. If I'm ranking players, Rodman falls below the 40-84 range that I just specified.

With those three players in particular, it's all about context. But the list has to, at some point, disregard context and just rank players without assuming context. Especially considering something like... for the current Bulls team, prime Kobe would be a better fit than prime Jordan, just based on shooting ability. Not saying they wouldn't win with prime Jordan, because they would, but I hope you get my point. Team context can be so picky, and change so quickly, that it's hard to rely on that for a ranking.

[ArbitraryWater]

Appreciate the knowledge and work behind this.. Keep it coming.

[L.Kizzle]

Shortened the quote just because it takes up too much space. Hope you don't mind, especially since I'll be referencing it as a whole, rather than specific parts.

Rodman, Big Ben, and Mutombo would rank higher on a "I need to win a championship" lists than they would a "greatest player ever" list.

Judging by the title, and GOAT can correct me if I'm wrong, it looks like he's attempting to rank players based on GOAT status, and not how they'd fit into a championship team or fill a necessary role.

If I were to draft an actual team, I'd pick Rodman in the 4th-6th round, assuming 10-14 teams. If I'm ranking players, Rodman falls below the 40-84 range that I just specified.

With those three players in particular, it's all about context. But the list has to, at some point, disregard context and just rank players without assuming context. Especially considering something like... for the current Bulls team, prime Kobe would be a better fit than prime Jordan, just based on shooting ability. Not saying they wouldn't win with prime Jordan, because they would, but I hope you get my point. Team context can be so picky, and change so quickly, that it's hard to rely on that for a ranking.
How do you rate Bill Russell?

[kshutts1]

How do you rate Bill Russell?
If that's a "where", then in my top tier. So top 8 of all time.

If it's an actual "how", he was the straight up leader of the most winningest dynasty of all time. Most likely best defensive player ever. Shot in the top 5 for FG% in multiple years iirc. One of the best passing big men.

His game is leaps and bounds beyond that of Big Ben or Mutombo. Only on defense are there anywhere near, and even there they fall way short.

[L.Kizzle]

G.O.A.T. are you still with us?

[Shade8780]

I told you that nikka should've just went straight to the top 10.

[L.Kizzle]

I told you that nikka should've just went straight to the top 10.
In another thread he said he got injured, but that was over a month ago.

[ArbitraryWater]

I told you that nikka should've just went straight to the top 10.

Lol you learn nothing that way... 100 would have done it though.

But 212? wow

[L.Kizzle]

112.

[DatAsh]

If you every come back, you should link your previous threads. I enjoy seeing how your views have changed over the years.

[L.Kizzle]

If you every come back, you should link your previous threads. I enjoy seeing how your views have changed over the years.
He logged on yesterday, so he's still with us. Maybe his hand is still healing.

Come back G.O.A.T.

[L.Kizzle]

Will you ever finish this off?

[L.Kizzle]

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Sports/espnapi_nba_u_curry_kh_576x324_wmain.jpg
#212 Wardell Stephen Curry II
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 5 (4)
Primary Role: Lead Player on Middle of the Pack Team
Prime Averages: 21-4-7-2 on 47/44/90

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-One of the up and coming stars in today's games and a player so smooth he's already making a case as one of the top shooters of all-time. This second generation star is the biggest basketball star in the Bay Area since Run TMC and the Warriors are contenders for the first time in even longer. Combining solid ball handling and an unselfish nature with that deadly range and lightning quick release, plus the ability to play on or off the ball, Curry is one of the best offensive guards of his generation. After a coming out party in the 2013 playoffs, the 2013-14 season saw Curry make his first all-star team, garner All-NBA second team honors and finish sixth in the MVP voting. As Golden State continues their commitment to winning, Curry figures to be a star on the rise for years to come.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.emptythebench.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/stephmarburynyk.jpg
#211 Stephon Xavier Marbury
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (8)
Primary Role: Lead Player on Borderline Playoff Teams
Prime Averages: 21-3-8-1 on 43/33/78

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-A part of the famous 1996 draft class, Starbury seemed headed for greatness. Beginning his career teamed with Kevin Garnett in Minnesota, the Timberwolves seemed to have their Stockton/Malone for the next generation. However the spotlight wasn't big enough for both and Marbury forced his way out. From there it was a vagabonds journey of mixed success. From 1999 to 2004 he played for four teams, Minnesota, New Jersey, Phoenix and New York. He made all-star and all-NBA teams at the middle two, but almost never seen the playoffs. In total, five first round defeats are the extent of his playoff resume, never getting further than a sixth game. Still with multiple all-star and all-NBA seasons and seven seasons of 20 and 8 production, it's hard to forget how good he was, even if all we seem to remember is how good we all thought he could have been.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where does Step go from here?

A Championship and MVP and tied for 4th greatest regular season record All-Time.

[riseagainst]

new updated list

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Lebron

[L.Kizzle]

Finish this up!

[ArbitraryWater]

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Sports/espnapi_nba_u_curry_kh_576x324_wmain.jpg
#212 Wardell Stephen Curry II
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 5 (4)
Primary Role: Lead Player on Middle of the Pack Team
Prime Averages: 21-4-7-2 on 47/44/90

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-One of the up and coming stars in today's games and a player so smooth he's already making a case as one of the top shooters of all-time. This second generation star is the biggest basketball star in the Bay Area since Run TMC and the Warriors are contenders for the first time in even longer. Combining solid ball handling and an unselfish nature with that deadly range and lightning quick release, plus the ability to play on or off the ball, Curry is one of the best offensive guards of his generation. After a coming out party in the 2013 playoffs, the 2013-14 season saw Curry make his first all-star team, garner All-NBA second team honors and finish sixth in the MVP voting. As Golden State continues their commitment to winning, Curry figures to be a star on the rise for years to come.
[CENTER]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I already think Curry is too low :lol

I'm good..

Curry gonna go from 2012 in 214 to 30 in 2016


I think he's too high.

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/comeon.png

[L.Kizzle]

I'm good..

Curry gonna go from 2012 in 214 to 30 in 2016



http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/comeon.png
:D

Dell Curry was still more known that Steph at that time, lol.