How many perimeter players can score 27 points on 57% fg? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Roundball_Rock

07-15-2014, 02:32 PM

is LeBron the only one? has anyone else done it?

Not that I know of. LeBron has done it in two consecutive seasons and was at 27 ppg and 53% in 2012. The stat padding argument came to prominence when his efficiency jumped. Is it valid? For it to have merit you would have to believe that he decreased his FGA to cherry pick shots to allow for his percentage to rise. Does the data support this theory?

FGA per game (2011-2014): 18.8, 18.9, 17.8, 17.6
PPG per game (2011-2014): 26.7, 27.1, 26.8, 27.1
3PA per game (2011-2014): 3.5, 2.4, 3.3, 4.0
FG % per season (2011-2014): 51%, 53%, 57%, 57%

Counterintuitively, he actually increased his three point attempts in 2013 and then took another jump in 2014. One would expect his overall FG % to drop given this but it did not. Still, if his objective is to increase his FG % why would he take more three pointers? He shot 62.2% and 60.2% on two point attempts in the past two seasons; from three point range he shot 37.9% and 40.6%.

I suppose a LeBron detractor would point to the decrease in 1 FGA per game but that is hardly the type of decrease associated with cherry picking shots. If LeBron slipped to 14 FGA and 21 ppg while shooting only one three a game then this theory would have some merit (under that scenario he would be over 60%). Taking one less shot while increasing three point attempts disproves this theory.

In a 4 of his last 5 seasons in Utah, Adrian Dantley scored 30+ on 56%fg or more. He won the scoring title in 2 of them. In one of those season he only played 22 games, but had 30+ on 58%fg.

80's FG %'s are higher across the board due to weaker defense and because perimeter players had not incorporated three pointers into their game. Dantley never shot more than 0.1 three's a game in Utah. If LeBron did that he would have a FG % of 62%.

dubeta

07-15-2014, 02:37 PM

Not that I know of. LeBron has done it in two consecutive seasons and was at 27 ppg and 53% in 2012. The stat padding argument came to prominence when his efficiency jumped. Is it valid? For it to have merit you would have to believe that he decreased his FGA to cherry pick shots to allow for his percentage to rise. Does the data support this theory?

FGA per game (2011-2014): 18.8, 18.9, 17.8, 17.6
PPG per game (2011-2014): 26.7, 27.1, 26.8, 27.1
3PA per game (2011-2014): 3.5, 2.4, 3.3, 4.0
FG % per season (2011-2014): 51%, 53%, 57%, 57%

Counterintuitively, he actually increased his three point attempts in 2013 and then took another jump in 2014. One would expect his overall FG % to drop given this but it did not. Still, if his objective is to increase his FG % why would he take more three pointers? He shot 62.2% and 60.2% on two point attempts in the past two seasons; from three point range he shot 37.9% and 40.6%.

I suppose a LeBron detractor would point to the decrease in 1 FGA per game but that is hardly the type of decrease associated with cherry picking shots. If LeBron slipped to 14 FGA and 21 ppg while shooting only one three a game then this theory would have some merit (under that scenario he would be over 60%). Taking one less shot while increasing three point attempts disproves this theory.

80's FG %'s are higher across the board due to weaker defense and because perimeter players had not incorporated three pointers into their game. Dantley never shot more than 0.1 three's a game in Utah. If LeBron did that he would have a FG % of 62%.

LeBron greatest perimeter scorer ever :bowdown: :bowdown:

In fact him and Wilt are 1a and 1b in scoring ability

ralph_i_el

07-15-2014, 02:46 PM

There is a huge free throw disparity and a huge fg% desparity. I wouldnt say they are too similar despite the arbitrary TS%. Although it doesnt matter how you score so there is that.
Nothing about ts% is arbitrary.

Roundball_Rock

07-15-2014, 02:47 PM

LeBron greatest perimeter scorer ever :bowdown: :bowdown:

In fact him and Wilt are 1a and 1b in scoring ability

The difference between LeBron and other great perimeter scorers is LeBron is not a chucker. Most of them seem to have a quota of shots they must fill irrespective of whether they are shooting 30% or 70%. LeBron smartly chills out when his shot is off and works to incorporate his teammates. Look at his FGA when he shoot under 40% and compare it to his peers...Carmelo had games of 7 for 26, 9 for 29, and two games of 10 for 28 last year as examples. In 2013 Kobe had games of 10 for 32, 9 for 29, 11 for 33 and 16 for 41. How about MJ? Let's look at 1993. 9 for 27, 10 for 28, 13 for 36, 13 for 34, 10 for 26 as examples. And so on. Can anyone envision LeBron having such games? LeBron is ideal for a team concept because he knows when to reduce his role when it works best for the team.

pauk

07-15-2014, 03:22 PM

The simple answer is nobody except ofcourse lebron himself... considering nobody was able to do it before... statpadding or not is just an excuse... even if he did statpad then why wasnt anybody else able to "statpad" those numbers? Thats where it hits you... to "statpadd" those numbers you have to still be THAT good.. and nobody yet was...

navy

07-15-2014, 03:24 PM

It's not arbitrary. It's how efficient you score

Nothing about ts% is arbitrary.
It is arbitrary. Do you know how they calculate it?

fpliii

07-15-2014, 03:25 PM

It is arbitrary. Do you know how they calculate it?
PTS/(2*TSA)

Where TSA = FGA + .44*FTA. The .44 is used to isolate free throws on shooting fouls.

chazzy

07-15-2014, 03:30 PM

It is arbitrary. Do you know how they calculate it?
How efficient you are at getting your points factoring in all attempts at scoring.

navy

07-15-2014, 03:30 PM

PTS/(2*TSA)

Where TSA = FGA + .44*FTA. The .44 is used to isolate free throws on shooting fouls.
Exactly. That's arbitrary. Most advanced stats are. That doesnt make them bad.

The .44 multiplier is because not all free throws take up a possession. Technical foul shots and "and-ones" do not, while there are more than two free throws on one possession with a three-shot foul. Research has determined that about 44% of all free throws take up possessions, thus .44 is used as the multiplier. The .96 multiplier accounts for team offensive rebounds in situations where a missed shot is tipped out of bounds by a defensive player, continuing the possession without an offensive rebound being credited.

But the metric is . . . odd, to say the least. First, TS% does not distinguish, as eFG% at least attempts to do, between a made 2-point shot and a made 3-point shot. Rather, a player’s total points are lumped together. Second, free throw attempts are weighted at .44. This is the most puzzling choice in the formula. The supposed rationale for this number is that free throws are not a full possession. But . . . are we measuring possessions? If so, then presumably we should distinguish between 3-point shots and 2-point shots for TS%. For example, it takes 6 possessions to get 12 points if you make only 2-point shots, but it takes only 4 possessions if you make all 3-pointers. And, anyway, is a FTA 44% of a field goal attempt, or is it more accurately understood as 33% of a 3-point attempt?

Did I mention that the “Derrick Rose Effect” is still in play with TS%? Don’t worry if you didn’t catch it, but JJ Redick’s great night against against Detroit comes out as once again better than perfect under the TS% rubric. Redick had 26 pts. The denominator, working inside-out, is ((.44 x 4) + 10 ) x 2, which equals 23.52. So . . . JJ Redick’s TS% is 26 / 23.52, or 111%. The use of the word “true” in “true” shooting percentage officially strains the imagination..

Inactive

07-15-2014, 03:32 PM

Exactly. That's arbitrary. Most advanced stats are. Thar doesnt make them bad.

.This website uses pbp data, instead of .44 to calculate TS%. http://nbawowy.com/

The standard TS% formula is pretty accurate.

chazzy

07-15-2014, 03:35 PM

The noise yielded by the 44% multiplier is marginal. If you change it to .50 to make .5 of your FTAs as a possession used, there isn't a significant difference. Either way, it's a more accurate portrayal of efficiency than FG%. It's 2014

Roundball_Rock

07-15-2014, 03:37 PM

What is the evidence of him cherry picking shots to increase his FG %? That he went from 19 FGA to 18 FGA--while going from 2.4 3PA to 4.0 3PA?

:oldlol: at the lengths people go to diminish LeBron's greatness.

ArbitraryWater

07-15-2014, 03:49 PM

How efficient you are at getting your points factoring in all attempts at scoring.

Sooo you don't know how they calculate it?

Give me the exact criteria dumbass...

It's as arbitrary as PER, Win Shares, etc. which all of you hate :lol

But go repeat your "It's 2014"

Inactive

07-15-2014, 03:51 PM

Exactly. That's arbitrary. Most advanced stats are. Thar doesnt make them bad.

.

But the metric is . . . odd, to say the least. First, TS% does not distinguish, as eFG% at least attempts to do, between a made 2-point shot and a made 3-point shot. Rather, a player’s total points are lumped together.The whole point of eFG% is that it doesn't distinguish between 2pa, and 3pa. The reason you have to look at made 3s, and made 2s separately in eFG% is because FTM also appear in your scoring total, so you have separate them out by isolating 2s, and 3s.

TS% covers all of the ways in which points are scored, so that would be a complete waste of time. You only need total points scored, and the number of possessions which ended in a shot (TSA) it took to score them.

Second, free throw attempts are weighted at .44. This is the most puzzling choice in the formula. The supposed rationale for this number is that free throws are not a full possession. But . . . are we measuring possessions?We're measuring TSA, i.e possessions which ended with a fta, or fga.

If so, then presumably we should distinguish between 3-point shots and 2-point shots for TS%. For example, it takes 6 possessions to get 12 points if you make only 2-point shots, but it takes only 4 possessions if you make all 3-pointers.If you score 12 points on 3s, and nothing else, in 4 possessions, your TS% is 150%. If you score 12 points on 2s, and nothing else, in 6 possessions, your TS% is 100%.

And, anyway, is a FTA 44% of a field goal attempt, or is it more accurately understood as 33% of a 3-point attempt? It's .44 of a FGA, whether it's a two, or a 3. You lose possession after each fga. You lose possession after ~.44 of your fta.

CavaliersFTW

07-15-2014, 03:56 PM

Adrian Dantley

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dantlad01.html

30.7 ppg on 58%

/thread

fpliii

07-15-2014, 04:00 PM

Exactly. That's arbitrary. Most advanced stats are. That doesnt make them bad.

.
It's not "arbitrary" though. It's chosen based on a huge sample, so it's an estimate. Arbitrary implies randomness. :confusedshrug:

Calculating TS% using actual shooting fouls only has a minuscule effect, some sites actually calculate exact TS% from play-by-play data.

tmacattack33

07-15-2014, 04:10 PM

Since 1995...MJ and maybe peak 2009 Wade.

chazzy

07-15-2014, 04:40 PM

Sooo you don't know how they calculate it?

Give me the exact criteria dumbass...

It's as arbitrary as PER, Win Shares, etc. which all of you hate :lol

But go repeat your "It's 2014"
It was posted right before my post, dumbass. I was just explaining it in terms for dumbasses like you to interpret.

Sarcastic

07-15-2014, 04:43 PM

Adrian Dantley

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dantlad01.html

30.7 ppg on 58%

/thread

Can't believe it took 3 pages for him to get a mention.

He'd be an absolute GOD to modern stat nerds.

Legends66NBA7

07-15-2014, 04:50 PM

Can't believe it took 3 pages for him to get a mention.

He'd be an absolute GOD to modern stat nerds.

I mentioned him on page 2

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10312471&postcount=17

ArbitraryWater

07-15-2014, 04:52 PM

It was posted right before my post, dumbass. I was just explaining it in terms for dumbasses like you to interpret.

dumbasses dumbass dumbassing

GODbe

07-15-2014, 04:54 PM

Only King James :bowdown:

navy

07-15-2014, 05:10 PM

It's not "arbitrary" though. It's chosen based on a huge sample, so it's an estimate. Arbitrary implies randomness. :confusedshrug:

Calculating TS% using actual shooting fouls only has a minuscule effect, some sites actually calculate exact TS% from play-by-play data.
I meant arbitrary as in the criteria can be changed. Or at least that's how I use the term as. Technically you could use the .44 from the larger sample data they used (I dont know the years they used in particular but I cant imagine that the .44 remains as constant as it should be with all the rules changes and eras), you could use a specific season, or you could use a specific players data for one year or multiple years.

:confusedshrug:

Magic 32

07-15-2014, 05:12 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZUtsYNTRgw

Poetry

07-15-2014, 05:38 PM

Is it just me, or is LeBron's 2013-14 shooting chart very odd?

http://i58.tinypic.com/k0m54p.png

Obviously, he's making most of his shots within 5 feet of the basket (he's 6'8, no surprise here), but then it seems like this past season, the right side of the floor was really unkind to him.

In seasons past, he was actually better from the right side.

MellowYellow

07-15-2014, 05:48 PM

Hard to call him a perimeter player when he shoots 38% outside of 10 ft. He is more like Shaq at scoring than MJ.

dubeta

07-15-2014, 05:50 PM

Hard to call him a perimeter player when he shoots 38% outside of 10 ft. He is more like Shaq at scoring than MJ.

how many non perimeter players shoot 38% from 3? :facepalm

305Baller

07-15-2014, 05:55 PM

2/5

navy

07-15-2014, 06:00 PM

Hard to call him a perimeter player when he shoots 38% outside of 10 ft. He is more like Shaq at scoring than MJ.
He shot 38% from 3 and 40% in the postseason.

Shaq like. :oldlol:

dubeta

07-15-2014, 06:02 PM

He shot 38% from 3 and 40% in the postseason...:oldlol:

I swear, laker fans here think lebron dunks 12 times a game and doesnt shoot

lebron has the most complete scoring arsenal in the league, scores from everywhere

fyi durant had more dunks than bran this year

Poetry

07-15-2014, 06:08 PM

how many non perimeter players shoot 38% from 3? :facepalm

LeBron can shoot well from within 5 feet, and outside of 20 feet. Everything in between is a little shaky and fluctuates.

He's primarily an inside scorer, but he's also a three-point threat. It's weird.

lebron has the most complete scoring arsenal in the league, scores from everywhere

Durant is much more versatile. He can hit from anywhere. LeBron can't shoot from 15-19% feet.

But in LeBron's defense, he was better than Durant from...5 feet in, 20 feet out.

But Durant was better from everything in between.

Edit...

My mistake. I take that back.

Durant is much better from within 5 feet, as well.

Durant shot 92.9% within five.
LeBron shot 78.2%.

MellowYellow

07-15-2014, 06:09 PM

I swear, laker fans here think lebron dunks 12 times a game and doesnt shoot

lebron has the most complete scoring arsenal in the league, scores from everywhere

fyi durant had more dunks than bran this year

but he only scores efficiently in the paint.

Poetry

07-15-2014, 06:12 PM

But in LeBron's defense, he was better than Durant from...5 feet in, 20 feet out.

But Durant was better from everything in between.

My mistake. I take that back.

Durant is much better from within 5 feet, as well.

Durant shot 92.9% within five.
LeBron shot 78.2%.

navy

07-15-2014, 06:15 PM

My mistake. I take that back.

Durant is much better from within 5 feet, as well.

Durant shot 92.9% within five.
LeBron shot 78.2%.
Where are you getting your stats? :oldlol:

Poetry

07-15-2014, 06:16 PM

Where are you getting your stats? :oldlol:

NBA.com, i'll post them in two minutes, let me just screenshot them.

riseagainst

07-15-2014, 06:20 PM

here are the FG% by distance for these 3 perimeter superstars of recent times for their career (thus far):

feet: 0-3, 3-10, 10-16, 16-3point, 3point,
Lebron: 72.6% 43.8% 35.9% 38.8% 34.1%
Kobe: 63.5% 45.2% 44.5% 40.6% 33.6%
Durant: 71.8% 42.7% 42.9% 41.8% 37.7%

As expected Lebron is the best finisher of the 3, but not by much ahead of Durant, both are way ahead of Kobe. Kobe is slightly ahead of both in 3-10, 10-16 is where Lebron falls off alot behind Kobe and Durant.

Here are also the percentage of attempts by the 3 by distance:

feet: 0-3 3-10 10-16 16-3point 3point
Lebron: 34.0% 12.1% 10.1% 23.9% 19.9%
Kobe: 21.8% 12.5% 17.0% 28.3% 20.4%
Durant: 22.5% 13.0% 18.1% 23.5% 22.8%

lebron way ahead of the pack in 0-3 feet percentage of shots taken, and the least amount in pretty much the rest of the court. Especially 10-16, his weakest spot.

Lebron and Durant are also more than double in percentage of attempts that are dunks:

Lebron: .79
Durant: .82
Kobe: .39

a great note is that the percentage of 2 pointers made by Durant that are assisted are way above the other 2 at 48.3%.
Lebron is at 35.7, kobe at 34.9

navy

07-15-2014, 06:21 PM

NBA.com, i'll post them in two minutes, let me just screenshot them.
NBA.com must have an error. Here you go.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01/shooting/2014/

90% literally makes Durant the best of all time.

Poetry

07-15-2014, 06:23 PM

Where are you getting your stats? :oldlol:

I wonder if these numbers are just head to head, when I start from LeBron's regular season page and ask to compare to Durant, Durant's numbers look phenomenal side by side.

But when i start from Durant's page, and ask to compare to LeBron , the numbers are different.

92% from inside for Durant does seem high. Let me see if I can figure this out.

kennethgriffin

07-15-2014, 06:27 PM

isnt there a shot chart that shows lebron makes 70% of his shots in the paint ( mostly layups )

the guys also 6-9, 270 pounds

hes basically a power forward that can handle the ball outside.

so yeah... not a typical perimeter player IMO

iverson at 5 foot 11, 175 pounds was a perimeter player. to group people together that far apart to somehow boost 1 mans efficiency is sort of unfair

Poetry

07-15-2014, 06:31 PM

I think you're right, Navy, these may only be the head-to-head numbers, but even so, they're different on both pages, so I don't even know if one set is right over the other.

On one page LeBron is 78.2% from within 5 feet, on the other he's 77.8%.

Hoopz2332

07-31-2014, 08:38 AM

with as many 3pt's taken? Prob only 80's MJ.

Roundball_Rock

07-31-2014, 09:37 AM

with as many 3pt's taken? Prob only 80's MJ.

Jordan's best FG % seasons were 53.8% (89') and 53.5% (88') but he only took 1.2 and 0.6 3PA those seasons (shooting 13% and 28% from three point range--so imagine him taking 3-4 three's a game back then and what that would do to his FG %).

There has been no perimeter player who can take 3.3-4.0 3PA and still have a FG % of 57% other than LeBron--and he has done it twice. That is the problem with the names other people are mentioning in this thread. They weren't shooting 3's since 3's were not an important part of the game back then. LeBron's EFG% is significantly higher than those players'.

Hoopz2332

07-31-2014, 10:23 AM

Jordan's best FG % seasons were 53.8% (89') and 53.5% (88') but he only took 1.2 and 0.6 3PA those seasons (shooting 13% and 28% from three point range--so imagine him taking 3-4 three's a game back then and what that would do to his FG %).

There has been no perimeter player who can take 3.3-4.0 3PA and still have a FG % of 57% other than LeBron--and he has done it twice. That is the problem with the names other people are mentioning in this thread. They weren't shooting 3's since 3's were not an important part of the game back then. LeBron's EFG% is significantly higher than those players'.

Agreed. That's why I laughed at the Dantely mention:lol

Hoopz2332

07-31-2014, 10:37 AM

dubeta scored 5pts more on similar efficiency

:wtf: :biggums:

3ball

07-31-2014, 10:38 AM

obviously, a lot of guys have averaged more than 27ppg in the Finals (Wade, Jordan, Kobe, and many many more) - infact, a lot of guys have averaged a lot MORE than 27ppg...

but all of them took much more than 17 shots per game to do so.

if you told them to take only 17 shots per game, I'm sure they could easily shoot 57%.

it's just that none of those guys WOULD take only 17 shots per game ever, because they are trying to actually WIN... not just prop up their stats.

Like, I don't mind a guy only shooting 54%, if he's going to give me more scoring - raw FG% is nothing - points per possession is what matters, and Lebron's points per possession was nowhere near goat-level.

navy

07-31-2014, 10:42 AM

obviously, a lot of guys have averaged more than 27ppg in the Finals (Wade, Jordan, Kobe, and many many more) - infact, a lot of guys have averaged a lot MORE than 27ppg...

but all of them took much more than 17 shots per game to do so.

if you told them to take only 17 shots per game, I'm sure they could easily shoot 57%.

it's just that none of those guys WOULD take only 17 shots per game ever, because they are trying to actually WIN... not just prop up their stats.
In an attempt to jump through mental hoops you missed the point of the thread.

Plenty of players can average 27 points.

Plenty of players can average 57%

How many can do both at the same time?

3ball

07-31-2014, 10:46 AM

In an attempt to jump through mental hoops you missed the point of he thread.

Plenty of players can average 27 points.

Plenty of players can average 57%

How many can do both at the same time?

Who cares about the same time? Lebron's points per possession was not as high as other players have been.

In other words, other players have averaged MORE ppg on lower FG% that resulted in higher points per possession.

3ball

07-31-2014, 10:47 AM

In an attempt to jump through mental hoops you missed the point of the thread.

Plenty of players can average 27 points.

Plenty of players can average 57%

How many can do both at the same time?

like, 35ppg on 52% shooting is better than 27ppg on 57% shooting.

navy

07-31-2014, 10:55 AM

Who cares about the same time? Lebron's points per possession was not as high as other players have been.

In other words, other players have averaged MORE ppg on lower FG% that resulted in higher points per possession.
Where are the points per possession stats? Im sure if you look at points created off possessions Lebron will be good nomatter what. Its not like his efg or ts% numbers are lacking.

navy

07-31-2014, 10:55 AM

like, 35ppg on 52% shooting is better than 27ppg on 57% shooting.
Never said that it was. How many players can do 35ppg on 52% shooting?

dannywpt

07-31-2014, 11:01 AM

Very impressive. One could even argue he's on the same level as Durant in terms of scoring :durantunimpressed:

3ball

07-31-2014, 11:02 AM

Never said that it was. How many players can do 35ppg on 52% shooting?

Wade did it in 2006.. Jordan did it in 1992...

in 1991, Jordan did 32ppg on 54% shooting along with 11 assists per game....

that's worlds better than 27ppg on 57% shooting and 4.0 assists per game (where Lebron's turnovers = his assists, so no value-add to his passing at all).

3ball

07-31-2014, 11:03 AM

Never said that it was. How many players can do 35ppg on 52% shooting?

Jordan also did 41ppg on 51% shooting in 1993.

navy

07-31-2014, 11:06 AM

Wade did it in 2006.. Jordan did it in 1992...

in 1991, Jordan did 32ppg on 54% shooting along with 11 assists per game.... that's worlds better than 27ppg on 57% shooting and 4.0 assists per game.
We are talking about seasons not series...

3ball

07-31-2014, 11:08 AM

We are talking about seasons not series...

oh okay.. Jordan in 1989

35.0ppg on 53.5%

navy

07-31-2014, 11:14 AM

oh okay.. Jordan in 1989 - 35.0ppg on 53.5%
Alright. So Jordan, Lebron, and....

That's a pretty exclusive club no matter how you look at it.

Jordan's efg 54%, Ts% 60%
Lebron's efg 61% Ts% 65%

Two people who could do it ever? Not bad at all. I might throw Wilt and Shaq in there.

Im Still Ballin

07-31-2014, 11:17 AM

You can't compare weak 80's/early 90's defense to today.

How many perimeter players can do this? Only Lebron.

3ball

07-31-2014, 11:17 AM

Alright. So Jordan, Lebron, and....

That's a pretty exclusive club no matter how you look at it.

Jordan's efg 54%, Ts% 60%
Lebron's efg 61% Ts% 65%

Two people who could do it ever? Not bad at all. I might throw Wilt and Shaq in there.

lebron never averaged 35ppg on 52%... only Jordan has done that

lebron got 27ppg on 57%.

keep in mind that lebron plays in an era where the 3 point shot is used to space the floor - shooting the 3 improves one's eFG% more than shooting all two-pointers like Jordan did, and the floor spacing makes it so a higher proportion of shots are open.

like, how high would his FG% be if he shot all contested two's with no floor-spacing like previous eras did as a standard?... in today's game, teams and players run from mid-range contested two's like the plague - they are considered the toughest, worst shots in basketball.. but in previous eras, they were standard.

choppermagic

07-31-2014, 11:20 AM

Who cares about the same time? Lebron's points per possession was not as high as other players have been.

In other words, other players have averaged MORE ppg on lower FG% that resulted in higher points per possession.

Agree.

The 57% mark is arbitrary and in fact can hurt a team if it makes the player timid in hurting his stats. Because ESPN has focused on FG%, Lebron seems to have focused his game entirely on efficiency.

I'd rather have 30+ppg + WINNING, than 27ppg 57% FG%. Taken to more extreme, imagine you are playing at the local outdoor court and one teammate keeps breaking out and cherry picking layups, not defending but standing under the other basket calling for the ball, etc. Yeah, he'd get a super high FG% and points, but he's not helping really. He's taking all the easy shots and probably passing off on the difficult or contested shots to let his teammates deal with those. Stat padding.

Bottom line, guy was the scoring leader for his team and as the so called best player in the league could only put up 27ppg while his team was getting beat. I dont think MJ would have back away from taking charge.

Hoopz2332

07-31-2014, 11:22 AM

lebron never averaged 35ppg on 52%... only Jordan has done that

lebron got 27ppg on 57%.

keep in mind that lebron plays in an era where the 3 point shot is used to space the floor - shooting the 3 improves one's eFG% more than shooting all two-pointers like Jordan did, and the floor spacing makes it so a higher proportion of shots are open.

like, how high would lebron's FG% be if he shot all two's and didn't get to enjoy the floor-spacing he enjoys now?... so how high would his FG% be if he shot all contested two's like previous eras did as a standard?... in today's game, teams and players run from contested two's like the plague - they are considered the toughest, worst shots in basketball.

http://i.imgur.com/oxwoYZ7.png

Jordan took 24.4shots per game and 10 ftpg when he avg 35 on 52%. If you give lebron that same amount of shots and ft's, he would prob avg more points than 35.

navy

07-31-2014, 11:23 AM

lebron never averaged 35ppg on 52%... only Jordan has done that

lebron got 27ppg on 57%.

keep in mind that lebron plays in an era where the 3 point shot is used to space the floor - shooting the 3 improves one's eFG% more than shooting all two-pointers like Jordan did, and the floor spacing makes it so a higher proportion of shots are open.

like, how high would lebron's FG% be if he shot all two's and didn't get to enjoy the floor-spacing he enjoys now?
The thread is about 27ppg on 57%. I never said Lebron averaged 35ppg on 52%....what the hell man. Pay attention.

Shooting threes will increases one's eFG%. A bad three point shooter will see a sharp decline.

Lebron James on two point shots excluding three pointers. 62%. Not bad. Not bad at all. :confusedshrug:
Jordan's highest on 2 pointers alone 55%.

3ball

07-31-2014, 11:26 AM

Jordan took 24.4shots per game and 10 ftpg when he avg 35 on 52%. If you give lebron that same amount of shots and ft's, he would prob avg more points than 35.

"GIVE" lebron that same amount of shots?

why does lebron always need to be GIVEN things?

how about lebron TAKE the same amount of shots?

oh wait... that would go against his risk averse personality and then shallow espn wouldn't give him as much props for his lower efficiency.. it's all true.

navy

07-31-2014, 11:28 AM

Bottom line, guy was the scoring leader for his team and as the so called best player in the league could only put up 27ppg while his team was getting beat. I dont think MJ would have back away from taking charge.
The thread is about the regular season not a single series...we've seen much better stuff from a single series from alot of players. Even from Lebron.

noob cake

07-31-2014, 11:30 AM

63.5 TS% vs 64.9 TS%

Only because Durant takes 15 free throws a game from rip through and jump shots fouls.

K Xerxes

07-31-2014, 11:30 AM

Agree.

The 57% mark is arbitrary and in fact can hurt a team if it makes the player timid in hurting his stats. Because ESPN has focused on FG%, Lebron seems to have focused his game entirely on efficiency.

I'd rather have 30+ppg + WINNING, than 27ppg 57% FG%. Taken to more extreme, imagine you are playing at the local outdoor court and one teammate keeps breaking out and cherry picking layups, not defending but standing under the other basket calling for the ball, etc. Yeah, he'd get a super high FG% and points, but he's not helping really. He's taking all the easy shots and probably passing off on the difficult or contested shots to let his teammates deal with those. Stat padding.

Bottom line, guy was the scoring leader for his team and as the so called best player in the league could only put up 27ppg while his team was getting beat. I dont think MJ would have back away from taking charge.

It's utterly stupid that anyone would argue Lebron is even in the same ballpark as Jordan as a scorer, but I don't think the Heat would have beat the Spurs even if Lebron chucked more and averaged 40ppg. His team mates were a no show on offense and their defense was getting shredded by exceptional ball movement.

3ball

07-31-2014, 11:35 AM

Lebron James on two point shots excluding three pointers. 62%. Not bad. Not bad at all. :confusedshrug:
Jordan's highest on 2 pointers alone 55%.

it's easy to score efficiently at the rim when your era changed the rules so there is no rim protection.

The NBA's rules have made it so defenders AREN'T ALLOWED to occupy the paint for more than 3 seconds.

Couple today's defensive 3 seconds rule with the 3 point shooting that spaces the floor, and today's rim protection and overall congestion in the paint/mid-range areas is non-existent compared to previous eras.

The gifs below are just examples for anyone that wasn't already aware of how the game has changed... which one is harder to score in the paint?

3-point shooting + defensive 3 seconds = an open paint and no rim protection:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Todays_No_Defense_Lack_of_Rim_eb5a1b1afe17e31ce272 eb4e3ae0f8e9.gif

No defensive 3 seconds + no 3-point shooting = paint perpetually congested with defenders

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2.gif

choppermagic

07-31-2014, 11:44 AM

it's easy to score efficiently at the rim your era changed the rules so there is no rim protection.

The NBA's rules have made it so defenders AREN'T ALLOWED to occupy the paint for more than 3 seconds.

couple the defensive 3 seconds rule with the 3 point shooting that spaces the floor, and the rim protection and overall congestion in the paint and mid-range areas is non-existent compared to previous eras.

The gifs below are just examples for anyone that wasn't already aware of how the game has changed... which one is harder to score in the paint?

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Todays_No_Defense_Lack_of_Rim_eb5a1b1afe17e31ce272 eb4e3ae0f8e9.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2.gif

Nice examples. Look how Jordan is going up against 3 HOFs on that drive and the greatest frontcourt in history, to boot.

Like i said, arbitrary stat is arbitrary.

How many perimeter players have scored 18.9 ppg on 52+fg%, 44% 3-pt, and 90%+ FT%? Mark price did it. Definitely not Lebron.

And perimeter or no, if someone pulled off a Wilt and scored 50.4 ppg on a FG% of "only" 51%, that guy is the MVP and will be touted as the runaway best player in the game, regardless of Lebron's protected FG%, so who is more valuable?

navy

07-31-2014, 11:53 AM

it's easy to score efficiently at the rim when your era changed the rules so there is no rim protection.

The NBA's rules have made it so defenders AREN'T ALLOWED to occupy the paint for more than 3 seconds.

Couple today's defensive 3 seconds rule with the 3 point shooting that spaces the floor, and today's rim protection and overall congestion in the paint/mid-range areas is non-existent compared to previous eras.

The gifs below are just examples for anyone that wasn't already aware of how the game has changed... which one is harder to score in the paint?

3-point shooting + defensive 3 seconds = an open paint and no rim protection:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Todays_No_Defense_Lack_of_Rim_eb5a1b1afe17e31ce27e b4e3ae0f8e9.gif

No defensive 3 seconds + no 3-point shooting = paint perpetually congested with defenders

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef00 3568c2gif

The defensive three second rule was put in place in the 60s. There is definitely more room from the three pointers, but that also means players are taking more pointers which would lower their fg%. The use of zone also makes players more likely to shoot from the outside because their man backs off. You give and you take.

navy

07-31-2014, 11:58 AM

Nice examples. Look how Jordan is going up against 3 HOFs on that drive and the greatest frontcourt in history, to boot.

Like i said, arbitrary stat is arbitrary.

How many perimeter players have scored 18.9 ppg on 52+fg%, 44% 3-pt, and 90%+ FT%? Mark price did it. Definitely not Lebron.

And perimeter or no, if someone pulled off a Wilt and scored 50.4 ppg on a FG% of "only" 51%, that guy is the MVP and will be touted as the runaway best player in the game, regardless of Lebron's protected FG%, so who is more valuable?
19 points on 50/40/90+ is impressive as well. It be interesting to see that list as well. Larry Bird, Dirk, come to mind.

You guys are so insecure. Durant and Jordan are definitely better scorers than Lebron. Doesnt mean we cant acknowledge greatness or impressive feats when we see them. Nobody is touching Wilt scoring numbers. :oldlol:

3ball

07-31-2014, 12:06 PM

Shooting the 3-point shot INCREASES effective FG% and TS%.

Keep in mind that before 2012, Lebron was a 32% three-point shooter just like Jordan had been.

Lebron didn't become a good 3-point shooter until 2012 after floor-spacing had become the new trend - i bring this up to say that a lot of guys from previous eras would become good 3-point shooters just like Lebron did.
.

3ball

07-31-2014, 12:07 PM

Also, defensive 3 seconds was added in the 2004-2005 season.. this is a fact.

3ball

07-31-2014, 12:08 PM

Agreed... better comp all the way around.

Here's Jordan's version of Hibbert and George.. people just forget..

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_takes_Penny_and_Shaq_baa7b35eab7fc31a6d97cf 2a2da83028.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Shaq_7a78ff0a205611c2aaf2fcf2af13f 605.gif

Here's what happens when you put bigger defenders on MJ, whether it be Richard Dumas or Dennis Rodman... imagine what he'd do to Boris Diaw or Kawhi Leonard... and there's that congested paint again..

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_defenders_in_Final_5ace7152199370ef1a7 bbf2800592a58.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Game_Winner_over_Rodman_cdfed0b0df8b81a04f9 cc8608a8e31bb.gif

Btw, I doubt lebron can maintain 51% like Wilt did while averaging FORTY shots per game (lebron's scared to take half that)... and of course he'd have to shoot all two's with THIS type of paint congestion..

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paint_Congestion_in_Wilts_Era__e5cc5559f5ecbd15aef ec46a22dd4b99.gif

navy

07-31-2014, 12:31 PM

Also, defensive 3 seconds was added in the 2004-2005 season.. this is a fact.
You dont know the definition of a fact. It was added in 1966-67, called more in 04-05.
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

3ball

07-31-2014, 12:39 PM

You dont know the definition of a fact. It was added in 1966-67, called more in 04-05.
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

touchee.

but the actual language from your link reads as follows:

"New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game."

So you kind of added the "more" part - it reads just call it period.

But there's some confusion on the rule as well, because under the 2001 rule changes from your link, it says this:

"A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player."
.

Odinn

07-31-2014, 12:40 PM

navy

07-31-2014, 12:43 PM

3ball

07-31-2014, 12:46 PM

How does that ended the thread. LOL, add them to the list. :oldlol:

except out of all of them on the "list", lebron's overall stat line is the worst.

Odinn

07-31-2014, 12:48 PM

How does that ended the thread. LOL, add them to the list. :oldlol:
I was directly against the OP. TBH, I haven't gone through all the pages.:oldlol: :oldlol:

navy

07-31-2014, 12:50 PM

touchee.

but the actual language from your link reads as follows:

"New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game."

So you kind of added the "more" part - it reads just call it period.

But there's some confusion on the rule as well, because under the 2001 rule changes from your link, it says this:

"A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player."
.
The rule was initially apart of the zone defense rule and then they made it's own rule.

3ball

07-31-2014, 12:58 PM

Interestingly on those rule changes, the 2004-2005 rule changes actually state that the calling of defensive 3 seconds and curtailing of hand-checking were to "open up the game"...

"New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.

Since Lebron's stats came in this era with the aforementioned softer rules, his stats mean less anyway, as does any perimeter player from this era.

Hoopz2332

07-31-2014, 01:03 PM

LeBron averaged these stats while playing PF. So let's compare him a short-sized PF, shall we?

Barkley averaged 28.3 ppg on .587 fg.

I'm not even talking about MJ going for 35 on nearly 54%.

/thread

Lebron didn't play like a PF. He still played as a perimeter players.Im guessing you're going to start saying melo is PF because he often plays that position but his entire attack is perimiter based:biggums: