who the hell said Wiggins ceiling= T-Mac's offense & Pippen's defense?

[ThemBombs]

first of all, do you even remember how good both of them were?

T-Mac's highlight tape 04/05 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkFWZwRrkSA)
T-Mac basketball reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgratr01.html)

Scottie Pippen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk)
8x All-Defensive first team FROM 1992-1999 :eek:

how exactly can Wiggins develop into a fusion of these two? I simply don't see it

[noob cake]

first of all, do you even remember how good both of them were?

T-Mac's highlight tape 04/05 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkFWZwRrkSA)
T-Mac basketball reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgratr01.html)

Scottie Pippen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk)
8x All-Defensive first team FROM 1992-1999 :eek:

how exactly can Wiggins develop into a fusion of these two? I simply don't see it

Because Wigginstans are universally acknowledged to be on crack.

One of Wiggins' weak point is his handle and distribution ability. McGrady was the point forward before LeBron existed.

Wiggins being an elite defender is a mythology of mystical proportions. He can't even play defense as well as Smart: http://deanondraft.com/2014/06/01/marcus-smart-vs-andrew-wiggins-who-was-the-best-big-12-perimeter-defender/

His rebounding, steal, block rates and defensive rating are merely average AMONG COLLEGE PLAYERS. Nothing points to elite defense. No, jumping high and running fast does not equate to great defense.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was the #1 vote getter for the all-Defensive team from 1994-1997. In 1994 he was #1 both in all-D votes and all-NBA votes. :bowdown:

[navy]

Pippen was the #1 vote getter for the all-Defensive team from 1994-1997. In 1994 he was #1 both in all-D votes and all-NBA votes. :bowdown:
No DPOY though

Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pippen

[Rubio2Gasol]

Pippen on D I can see.

If he wants to.be T-Mac, he needs to put in work. 3 practices a day, 1000 makes. That sort of work.

[Meticode]

When I watched the last Summer League game Grant Hill said something to the effect, "He he shoots the ball, it's almost as if he gets too high."

I do know some people said he barely has any rotation on the ball.

[tmacattack33]

He'll be a good defender.

I'm not sure he'll ever be a great offensive creator.

[Lateralus]

first of all, do you even remember how good both of them were?

T-Mac's highlight tape 04/05 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkFWZwRrkSA)
T-Mac basketball reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgratr01.html)

Scottie Pippen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk)
8x All-Defensive first team FROM 1992-1999 :eek:

how exactly can Wiggins develop into a fusion of these two? I simply don't see it

TMacs jumper was so freaking wet man. :bowdown: :bowdown:

Wish we had him without injuries as well as yao for once. :cry:

[Nowitness]

He is WAY better than that. More like T-Mac's defensive prowess and Pippen's offence.

[plowking]

Didn't Durant average less assists than Wiggins in college? All the while Wiggins had the 6th or 7th highest usage while Durant was the centerpiece of his college team? Now Durant just averaged 5 or 6 assists per game in the regular season.
Is it okay, or merely a natural assumption with his penetration ability, that he will collapse defenses and create for teammates in a more open NBA game?

Furthermore, Wiggins detractors love pointing out how raw his game is. It seems to be the one word that keeps coming up. It seems like you guys are the ones who haven't watched him play. Great spin move, great step back, solid jumper inside 16 feet, etc. He is actually quite skilled already, and will greatly benefit simply from working on his handle, one of the few things holding him back currently. Then again, Pippen was said to have a high dribble too, and look how he turned out.

[KyrieTheFuture]

It was ONE person who said that and he was ****ing trolling obviously. Jesus christ I swear to god this kid only gets hate because the Cavs drafted him.

[JtotheIzzo]

It was ONE person who said that and he was ****ing trolling obviously. Jesus christ I swear to god this kid only gets hate because the Cavs drafted him.

Kid got hate WAY before the Cavs took him. But it is a good thing, haters only hate on talent, there aren't too many Kentavious Caldwell-Pope haters out there.

If you cannot see the potential in Wiggins you are simply a blind hater.

[TheReal Kendall]

That's basically saying Wiggins will be the GOAT

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Kid got hate WAY before the Cavs took him. But it is a good thing, haters only hate on talent, there aren't too many Kentavious Caldwell-Pope haters out there.

If you cannot see the potential in Wiggins you are simply a blind hater.

Cavs fans only noticing it now because the Cavs took him.

[JtotheIzzo]

Cavs fans only noticing it now because the Cavs took him.

understandable, that is just like Millbuck hating him because he didn't fall to the Bucks, but lets be real, in a vacuum, no matter whose team he is on the kid is bringing energy and excitement to the league.

EDIT: Dood! that was your 6666th post

[K Xerxes]

People act like we can map out a player's career based on their college stats or a pre season game lol. You never know. A tmac/pippen fusion would rival peak Jordan, so that's a little stupid, but Wiggins could become a GREAT playr. We shall see.

[plowking]

People act like we can map out a player's career based on their college stats or a pre season game lol. You never know. A tmac/pippen fusion would rival peak Jordan, so that's a little stupid, but Wiggins could become a GREAT playr. We shall see.

It's not stupid. With his talents, best of all time is not out of the question. So, again, not stupid.

[JtotheIzzo]

People act like we can map out a player's career based on their college stats or a pre season game lol. You never know. A tmac/pippen fusion would rival peak Jordan, so that's a little stupid, but Wiggins could become a GREAT playr. We shall see.

he has elements of being able to create scoring off his athleticism, like a young T-Mac. The T-Mac comparisons are apt when you compare him to Toronto T-Mac, the Orlando T-Mac is much more polished and something Wiggins will need to work to achieve.

he has elements of being a defensive stopper. Pippen was always seen as a great stopper and people envision that for Wiggins.

Not sure why these comparisons are so offensive, it is pretty standard to compare new players to established veterans or past players, it is kind of a draft analysis tradition.

Only haters get offended

[Rubio2Gasol]

He doesn't look like T Mac, even Toronto TMac.

He seems.....in a word....tight. Everything seems really well coiled, but lacking the freedom and inventiveness of a great.

[Ne 1]

No DPOY though

Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pippen
A joke that he won DPOY over Hakeem that season. Jordan gambled a lot he might have not even been the most impactfull defender on his own team.

[deja vu]

A joke that he won DPOY over Hakeem that season. Jordan gambled a lot he might have not even been the most impactfull defender on his own team.
Jordan was better than Pip at shutting down people. Pip was more versatile at D though. It's close.

[9erempiree]

Wiggins is that player.

[Ne 1]

Jordan was better than Pip at shutting down people. Pip was more versatile at D though. It's close.
I was talking about the '88 season when he won DPOY, and I'm not referring to Scottie either. Someone brought up that Mike had a DPOY award while Pippen doesn't (although Pip was deserving of the '95 DPOY IMO) but anyway, I look at DPOY like COY in that its not really a such a career-defining award. If I'm comparing Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, and Joe Dumars as defenders, the fact that Pippen and Dumars don't have any DPOYs while Jordan and Payton each have one does not cross my mind. I don't really think COY or DPOY are awards that people really care about that much or that voters put that much thought to like they do the MVP.

[Marchesk]

No DPOY though

Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pippen

Moncrief got 2 DPOY

Sid the Squid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MJ

[GimmeThat]

isn't Durant putting up T-Mac's offense already?

[Marchesk]

So Wiggins is supposed to be a Durant/Pippen/Dr J hybrid?

You guys do realize that's some serious GOAT material, right?

Wiggins getting mad overrated ATM. Let's wait and see a season or two.

[ronnymac]

McGrady was a freak. Dude was not just a scorer like Melo, he was if not the best well rounded offensive monster in basketball at his peak as he was a playmaker, scorer and a triple threat.

[SyRyanYang]

T-mac as a scorer was not that efficient, Wiggins can be as good as him, but I don't think he'll be the facilitator T-mac once was.

[salwan]

Paul George is his ceiling.

[BoutPractice]

I think I did, although I said worse scoring TMac without the playmaking ability, wasn't necessarily thinking of Orlando TMac in particular (I think TMac is overrated except for his breakout Orlando years... he was never close to having "GOAT potential" imo... not even top 10... maybe top 30-40) added that was his "absolute ceiling". You can't predict a player's career, even if you turn out to be right. Nothing is written, there are multiple paths for the same player... all I was saying is that, with his particular toolset, that's what you could end up with if he were pushed to the absolute maximum of his innate abilities. I think there's only a minority (usually of advanced stats people) that would deny that Wiggins has a ridiculously high ceiling if he puts it together... just as few people would deny that he's far from reaching it at this point.

Which is why I predicted a curve similar to TMac, where he takes two to three years to really blossom. I'm not expecting instant production. I think that people will call him "overrated" and a "bust" in his rookie season... regardless of what he ends up being. He will almost certainly be outperformed by Jabari and several other rookies, if only due to his situation...

So I'm not a Wiggins stan, far from it. It's just my honest breakdown of his potential, of the kind of player he could turn out to be at the next level. I was calling Embiid the best prospect in the draft months before the college season started... back when everyone thought that Wiggins was a lock as the number one pick. But during the college season, I noticed that the overrating of Wiggins soon turned into underrating (and the Embiid hype reached ridiculous proportions even I was uncomfortable with). People were expecting too much, too soon, and because they have no sense of nuance whatsoever and no real understanding, just repeat what they're told, went straight from Michael Jordan to Gerald Green...

To a certain extent everyone is still influenced by the down plunge of Wiggins' stock during his college season. I'm saying this doesn't matter, he performed better than most freshmen do, and if you look at the full package, as you could witness in high school, college, summer league, you get a clear idea that he's a high ceiling guy... steal and rebound rates be damned.

[ILLsmak]

Because Wigginstans are universally acknowledged to be on crack.

One of Wiggins' weak point is his handle and distribution ability. McGrady was the point forward before LeBron existed.

Wiggins being an elite defender is a mythology of mystical proportions. He can't even play defense as well as Smart: http://deanondraft.com/2014/06/01/marcus-smart-vs-andrew-wiggins-who-was-the-best-big-12-perimeter-defender/

His rebounding, steal, block rates and defensive rating are merely average AMONG COLLEGE PLAYERS. Nothing points to elite defense. No, jumping high and running fast does not equate to great defense.

Mostly cuz people forget how good those dudes were. That's not to say he can't be really good on both sides.

If he was that, then he'd be GOAT. If he was ONE of those things, he'd be an all time player.

-Smak

[JtotheIzzo]

Mostly cuz people forget how good those dudes were. That's not to say he can't be really good on both sides.

If he was that, then he'd be GOAT. If he was ONE of those things, he'd be an all time player.

-Smak

Player comparisons always reek of hyperbole, when did people start taking this shit literally.

It is simply stating that there are elements of those guys in his game.

Go back and read all the 'NBA Comparisons' in past draft previews, if taken literally we'd have 10-15 HoFers from every draft.

[Dragic4Life]

Wiggins ceiling is AT BEST Steve Smith.

[BoutPractice]

The problem if you're too cautious with your predictions of top rated prospects is that some of them do turn out to be superstars and HOFers.

Instead of coming up with a somewhat realistic "middle" scenario, you should mainly think of the worst and best case scenario. Especially for number 1 picks... number 1 picks that pan out are more often superstars than other picks (which is to be expected). Those that don't are often horrific busts too.

Timid middle scenarios and other bastardizations of hope and skepticism are almost never right.

When Kevin Durant was a prospect, the "realistic" crowd had him as a slightly better Rashard Lewis. "At best", 25-26 ppg... and those that said it were promptly reminded that those were truly rare numbers... expect that seven years later, he's averaging 32, 7 and 5, and is the MVP of the league.

For the Anthony Davis haters, he was "basically Tyson Chandler". For the "realists" he would peak at 18 and 10, as a somewhat worse Chris Bosh. In fact, you would've been closer to the truth if you'd said "either he gets injured or he becomes a superstar and MVP candidate."

Conversely, no one ever thought that Michael Beasley might be at threat of not finding a spot on a roster.

Who could've foreseen that Derrick Rose could be the MVP, THEN possibly out of the league? etc. etc.

[Ca$H]

It was me. I'm a Wiggins stan. I declared my allegiance to Wiggins before Bran joined him. After five NBA seasons this is what I predict:

Wiggins' floor = Paul George

Wiggins' ceiling = Peak Tmac on offense and peak Pippen on defense.

Honestly I think it is a lock that Wiggins will be a Pippen level defender. He has the potential to be the GOAT perimeter defender. Wiggins has a lot of work to do to reach peak Tmac's level on offense but I think he will reach it (at least 90% of it minus the facilitating abilities). People hating on Wiggins are just insecure Bran stans. When Bran was entering the league most people hating on him were insecure Kobe stans. It is just an ongoing cycle of stan insecurity causing unwarranted hate.

A player's ceiling isn't what is most likely/a realistic middle ground. A ceiling is what is the absolute best case scenario based on his physical talents. Skills can be developed(shooting, passing, and ball handling). You can't teach Wiggins' length, speed, and leaping ability. What physical limitations(not skills) does Wiggins' have that prevents him from being peak Tmac on offense and peak Pippen on D?

[Bandito]

Isnt ceiling like the best he could do? I don't have a problem with that. He has the potential and hes young. Well see what happens in a couple of years.

[Dragic4Life]

I'm a Cavs fan but Wiggins ceiling = Steve Smith imho.

We want Love. Get it done Dan.

[Ca$H]

Isnt ceiling like the best he could do? I don't have a problem with that. He has the potential and hes young. Well see what happens in a couple of years.

Exactly. A player's ceiling isn't what is most likely/a realistic middle ground. A ceiling is what is the absolute best case scenario based on his physical talents. Skills can be developed(shooting, passing, and ball handling). You can't teach Wiggins' length, speed, and leaping ability. What physical limitations(not skills) does Wiggins' have that prevents him from being peak Tmac on offense and peak Pippen on D?

[tmacattack33]

It was me. I'm a Wiggins stan. I declared my allegiance to Wiggins before Bran joined him. After five NBA seasons this is what I predict:

Wiggins' floor = Paul George

Wiggins' ceiling = Peak Tmac on offense and peak Pippen on defense.

Honestly I think it is a lock that Wiggins will be a Pippen level defender. He has the potential to be the GOAT perimeter defender. Wiggins has a lot of work to do to reach peak Tmac's level on offense but I think he will reach it (at least 90% of it minus the facilitating abilities). People hating on Wiggins are just insecure Bran stans. When Bran was entering the league most people hating on him were insecure Kobe stans. It is just an ongoing cycle of stan insecurity causing unwarranted hate.

A player's ceiling isn't what is most likely/a realistic middle ground. A ceiling is what is the absolute best case scenario based on his physical talents. Skills can be developed(shooting, passing, and ball handling). You can't teach Wiggins' length, speed, and leaping ability. What physical limitations(not skills) does Wiggins' have that prevents him from being peak Tmac on offense and peak Pippen on D?

Ok yeah, ceiling is best possible scenario.

But you made his floor too high.

His floor is Igoudala not Paul George.

[Frozen1]

This guy couldn

[Dragic4Life]

[QUOTE=Frozen1]This guy couldn

[Ca$H]

[QUOTE=Frozen1]This guy couldn

[Dragic4Life]

Freshman Michael Jordan stats- 13.5 4.4 1.8 vs
Freshman Wiggins stats - 17.1 5.9 1.5
By that logic Wiggins is the next GOAT?:rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

I was talking about the '88 season when he won DPOY, and I'm not referring to Scottie either. Someone brought up that Mike had a DPOY award while Pippen doesn't (although Pip was deserving of the '95 DPOY IMO) but anyway, I look at DPOY like COY in that its not really a such a career-defining award. If I'm comparing Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, and Joe Dumars as defenders, the fact that Pippen and Dumars don't have any DPOYs while Jordan and Payton each have one does not cross my mind. I don't really think COY or DPOY are awards that people really care about that much or that voters put that much thought to like they do the MVP.

:applause:

Often the DPOY is simply given to the leader in shot blocking. COY is similarly weak, going to the coach of the team that improved the most a lot of times. Phil Jackson has only one COY. What does that tell you?

Pippen was robbed in 95'. The Bulls had the #2 defense in large part due to his defensive dominance (he was a great on the ball defender but most of his defensive impact came from team/help defense); Denver had the #14 defense yet Mutumbo won. Mutumbo winning DPOY that year is analogous to a player on a 43 win team winning MVP.

[hawke812]

No DPOY though

Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pippen

You did it wrong.

Jordan>

Pippen>>>>>>

That is why Madonna turned him down.

[lakerfreak]

If you double Lebron and Kyrie, Wiggins will get all the opportunities in the world on the offensive end, which will be good for his development as a potential star.

I could see him being an offensive stud for this reason over a defensive one.

[DMAVS41]

If you double Lebron and Kyrie, Wiggins will get all the opportunities in the world on the offensive end, which will be good for his development as a potential star.

I could see him being an offensive stud for this reason over a defensive one.

How long do you think it will take for Wiggins to get as good as Leonard is right now?

[lakerfreak]

How long do you think it will take for Wiggins to get as good as Leonard is right now?

Well guards generally develop quicker than big men, and with his sky high potential and being the number one over all, I would give him 2 full seasons to start significantly contributing as a star in his third year. I think I might be a little too patient in that regard. What do you think?

[lilgodfather1]

How long do you think it will take for Wiggins to get as good as Leonard is right now?
On defense about a year, on offense about two. He will have every opportunity to just play D and shoot uncontested shots, or fast nreak layups.

[PleezeBelieve]

Leonard came into the NBA at 227 lbs @ 19 years old. That's 33 more pounds than Wiggins.

[DMAVS41]

Well guards generally develop quicker than big men, and with his sky high potential and being the number one over all, I would give him 2 full seasons to start significantly contributing as a star in his third year. I think I might be a little too patient in that regard. What do you think?

I think it will take until the playoffs of year 3 of his career to become the well rounded player that Leonard currently is.

Just a point of reference...

Leonard over the last 2 years in the playoffs:

14/8/2 61% TS with 2 steals and 1 block. He's been a 41% 3 point shooter and plays arguably the best wing defense in the league.

I think it will take Wiggins until year 3 of his career to get there...and honestly, I'm not sure he will get there for sure that quickly. He doesn't look as NBA ready as Leonard did to me.

I still say trading him for Love/Dieng is a great idea, but if they don't...they have to trade Thompson and or Waiters and picks for real assets. This current team does not have nearly enough shooting. Kyrie is not a spot up shooter. Thompson can't. Wiggins won't be able to yet consistently. Bennett probably will be able to, but damn...he actually might not be very good.

I worry for the Cavs. I fear that they might **** this up yet again.

[PleezeBelieve]

As a freshman Leonard averaged more RPG APG SPG & shot better from the field than Wiggins.

Leonard is arguebly a better prospect than Wiggins coming out of college. Leonard went in the bottom of the lottery.

Now who is overrated?

[Marchesk]

Honestly I think it is a lock that Wiggins will be a Pippen level defender.

My god, you're saying it's a lock Wiggins will be the GOAT perimter defender??? Wiggins is pure potential right now. Nobody knows what he will do. There is no lock with a draft pick.

Can we stop with the hyperbole. Yeah, he's got a lot of upside. He could be good. That's it. None of this BS top 50 all-time crap. Wait until he's done something first.

[BigMacAttack]

Tmacs O with Pips D is the goat no question. Its the most ridiculous thing ive read for a while.

[FKAri]

Do you even know what the term ceiling means?

[Ca$H]

Tmacs O with Pips D is the goat no question. Its the most ridiculous thing ive read for a while.

I'm tired of everyone saying this. Peak Jordan's offense > Peak Tmac's offense.
Peak Jordan's defense = Peak Pippen's defense. So even if Wiggins reaches his absolute ceiling he wouldn't be better than Jordan.

[bluechox2]

what will lebran do when wiggins takes over sooner than expected?

[BigMacAttack]

I'm tired of everyone saying this. Peak Jordan's offense > Peak Tmac's offense.
Peak Jordan's defense = Peak Pippen's defense. So even if Wiggins reaches his absolute ceiling he wouldn't be better than Jordan.

If he became Tmac on O and Pippen on D the only thing that would seperate them is winning. Tmac + Pippen combined with Wiggins athleticism shits all over LBJ as a baller, thats what you are prediciting he will become.

[Ca$H]

first of all, do you even remember how good both of them were?

T-Mac's highlight tape 04/05 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkFWZwRrkSA)
T-Mac basketball reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgratr01.html)

Scottie Pippen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk)
8x All-Defensive first team FROM 1992-1999 :eek:

how exactly can Wiggins develop into a fusion of these two? I simply don't see it

Are you beginning to see it now? My prediction is starting to look damn good. Wiggins needs to improve his handles but he is where I thought he would be as rookie.

[Ca$H]

If he became Tmac on O and Pippen on D the only thing that would seperate them is winning. Tmac + Pippen combined with Wiggins athleticism shits all over LBJ as a baller, thats what you are prediciting he will become.

I stand by my prediction for his ceiling.

[ralph_i_el]

There's no point in making these comparisons. If Wiggins is ever as good as these guys he'll have done it with his own unique style. Nobody that good is just a cookie cutter of someone else.

And if he doesn't get to that level, comparing him to those guys that he shares athletic traits with won't be necessary:confusedshrug:

[ralph_i_el]

As a freshman Leonard averaged more RPG APG SPG & shot better from the field than Wiggins.

Leonard is arguebly a better prospect than Wiggins coming out of college. Leonard went in the bottom of the lottery.

Now who is overrated?

Leonard is not on the same tier athletically as Wiggins, and college stats are misleading. Plus Leonard was coming out of college with a completely broken J that the spurs shooting coach had to reconstruct. Without that he's not the Leonard we know today.

[IncarceratedBob]

ppl saying that if wiggins had these two skillsets he'd be the goat?

Lebron has larry birds offense with tim duncans defense....

[Ca$H]

There's no point in making these comparisons. If Wiggins is ever as good as these guys he'll have done it with his own unique style. Nobody that good is just a cookie cutter of someone else.

And if he doesn't get to that level, comparing him to those guys that he shares athletic traits with won't be necessary:confusedshrug:

Honestly I'm 100% confident that Wiggins will be a Pippen Caliber defender. I think Wiggins can get close to prime Tmac on offense. The only thing that I'm worried about is ball handling. His post play and step back J is smooth as hell.