Greg Anthony: Kobe is the most complete offensive player ever

[chopchop20]

He's an expert, and he just said it on Cold Pizza.

[Eldrunko247]

No..end of thread

[CakeorDeath]

He's an expert, and he just said it on Cold Pizza

He also said the Jazz would finish 14th in the West this year.

Some expert.

[Rab]

Wow, big surprise. He would sniff Kobe sweaty jock strap if he could.

And, no, Kobe is not the most complete offensive player ever.

[20 Dimes A Game]

No..end of thread

Best thing you have ever posted.

[Younggrease]

its true.... he is doing this after a summer without touching a ball or fully rehabbing his knee(which is effecting his game).

He is the most complete scorer to ever play the game. There is nothing he cant do.

Might have the best footwork in the league.
Top post game for a guard
Jumper is crazy
Handle is probably the best of any 2 guard

There is nothing he cant do on offense at an elite level

players are at his mercy..did you see Jones face yesterday. He was about to cry.

[indy]

Ask Tayshaun Prince and detroit. :D

[STelfair31]

I usually agree wit GA too but he not the most complete 'ever' but today probly

[Rab]

its true.... he is doing this after a summer without touching a ball or fully rehabbing his knee(which is effecting his game).

He is the most complete scorer to ever play the game. There is nothing he cant do.

Might have the best footwork in the league.
Top post game for a guard
Jumper is crazy
Handle is probably the best of any 2 guard

There is nothing he cant do on offense at an elite level

players are at his mercy..did you see Jones face yesterday. He was about to cry.
Greg Anthony played against the best offensive player ever....MJ. Kobe is great, and I admit there is nothing he can't do, but he is also playing in a league where it's impossible to try and guard any 2 in the league.

[Younggrease]

OK Give me someone with a more complete skill set then Kobe in terms of being a scorer.

IT might not be popular to believe but its true. The way Kobe just found good shots the last three games whenever he wanted was crazy. Its unheard off that he can just flip a switch and put 65 50 60 like that. The thing is I dont even know if he is on fire or not, it just seems like he is manipulating the defense and getting fairly easy shots for him

[JtotheIzzo]

its true.... he is doing this after a summer without touching a ball or fully rehabbing his knee(which is effecting his game).

He is the most complete scorer to ever play the game. There is nothing he cant do.

Might have the best footwork in the league.
Top post game for a guard
Jumper is crazy
Handle is probably the best of any 2 guard

There is nothing he cant do on offense at an elite level

players are at his mercy..did you see Jones face yesterday. He was about to cry.

he cant win a playoff series without Shaq

he cant hit an extra bucket in the second half of a game seven

he cant lead a team

if he is so goddamn great, why hasn't his team won shiiit since Deisel left?

why do you consistently post crap?

at least you weren't hating though

[CakeorDeath]

Even though I hate him, you might have to call Nash the most complete offensive player in the game today. He is the cornerstone of an offensive system that has single handedly changed the league. Can shoot from anywhere on the floor and has phenomenal court vision.

[Younggrease]

he cant win a playoff series without Shaq

he cant hit an extra bucket in the second half of a game seven

he cant lead a team

if he is so goddamn great, why hasn't his team won shiiit since Deisel left?

why do you consistently post crap?

at least you weren't hating though

what does that have to do with being a comlete scorer...It has only been 2 years since Shaq has left. 1 of those years he and Odom were hurt and changed coaches. Why good what he can and cant do on a 2 year sample????

Again what does that have to do with the topioc. Jordan at 28 =0 titles leading a team as well.

[SoCalMike]

he cant win a playoff series without Shaq

he cant hit an extra bucket in the second half of a game seven

he cant lead a team

if he is so goddamn great, why hasn't his team won shiiit since Deisel left?



I don't agree with Greg Anthony as well, but I dont agree with the crap you just posted here... come on now, that stuff is just rediculous and has been hashed and rehashed over and over and over again. Enough already.


:pimp:

[AIR_ball_Jordan]

what does that have to do with being a comlete scorer...It has only been 2 years since Shaq has left. 1 of those years he and Odom were hurt and changed coaches. Why good what he can and cant do on a 2 year sample????

Again what does that have to do with the topioc. Jordan at 28 =0 titles leading a team as well.

The Topic is "the most complete offensive player ever"

Not "complete scorer"...Those 2 are different

Kobe Can't pass well

The Most Complete Offenisve Player = MJ

/end thread

[dejordan]

i despised greg anthony as a player (overrated choker with no offensive game except spot up 3s), and i despise him as an announcer and analyst (according to him kobe's been the best in the league for 3 years, russell dominated wilt in their head to head matchups, etc.), however let's look at this as objectively as possible.

has a huge scorer ever been as multifaceted as #24?

finishes at the rim
hits midrange off screens
hits long range off screens
hits midrange off dribble
hits long range off dribble
hits 3s
gets to the line
scores from the high post

other than a power low post game (which i can't think of a guard except jordan and jr rider who ever really had one) he's an amazingly complete scorer.

but then the quote says "most complete offensive player ever."

he's a good passer. not top ten or anything, but he reads the triangle beautifully and hits guys off the dribble, from the air, and out of the post.

he's a terrific ball-handler. maybe not their with iverson and nash, but not far off and great for a 6' 6" guy.

i don't know if it's fair to say he's the most complete offensive player ever. it's hard to compare power players and perimeter players on this subject, so i'd break it into two camps. on the perimeter camp, kobe's got an argument. even though he lacked the explosiveness, i'd still go with bird who finished great at the rim despite his lack of hops, shot from any range, passed better than about 99.8% of all point guards, handled well for a forward and was super clutch. jordan's in the argument. i am a huge homer though for both of them. how about magic, who by 1990 when his three started to become reliable from deep and is of course a vastly superior creator for others. it's an interesting topic because you need to factor in so many things.

[Younggrease]

The Topic is "the most complete offensive player ever"

Not "complete scorer"...Those 2 are different

Kobe Can't pass well

The Most Complete Offenisve Player = MJ

/end thread

Kobe is actually a very good passer and averaged about the same number of assits as Jordan did in the triangle while playing with worst teammates

[JtotheIzzo]

I don't agree with Greg Anthony as well, but I dont agree with the crap you just posted here... come on now, that stuff is just rediculous and has been hashed and rehashed over and over and over again. Enough already.


:pimp:

well that's too falkin bad isnt it

what did I say that was wrong?

It is a retort to some falkin moron calling him the best offensive player ever

hardly harsh and pretty falkin accurate if you ask me

grow some onions lil boy

I've defended Kobe when the time was right, just today infact, I said he was the best scorer in the game

but 'ever', cmon dude, even your homeristic avatar cant even fool you on that. The NBA is in a lull, Steve Nash is winning MVP, and you want to call a gunner on a mediocre team best ever, in this weak ass era

forget that nonsense

Jizzo aint havin it

[CakeorDeath]

Jordan at 28 =0 titles leading a team as well

Jordan turned 28 in February of 91, 3 1/2 months later he was an NBA champion.

Jordan also went to college. By the time he played 10 years in the league (as Kobe has by the end of this year), he had three titles to his credit as the undisputed leader of that team.

[Brunch@Five]

concerning skillset, he indeed is the most complete player ever. Doesn't mean he is the most effective or even best offensive player ever. He simply has no flaw in his offensive game, other than decision-making, but IMO he has toned that down considerably since PJax' return.

[Younggrease]

well that's too falkin bad isnt it

what did I say that was wrong?

It is a retort to some falkin moron calling him the best offensive player ever

hardly harsh and pretty falkin accurate if you ask me

grow some onions lil boy

I've defended Kobe when the time was right, just today infact, I said he was the best scorer in the game

but 'ever', cmon dude, even your homeristic avatar cant even fool you on that. The NBA is in a lull, Steve Nash is winning MVP, and you want to call a gunner on a mediocre team best ever, in this weak ass era

forget that nonsense

Jizzo aint havin it

you keep on making these unfound leaps in logic, all Greg Anthony said is Kobe had the most complete offensive skill set to ever play the game. Now reconsidering my stance i will.

I think Kobe is the most complete scorer ever.

But as an offensive player I believe he is top 3 but it is too hard to narrow it down any further because there are too many variables as a poster abouve said.

[glidedrxlr22]

Greg Anthony has once again proven he's a douche. At the beginning of the year he said the Lakers were a finals team. He just bought into the early season record hype. Now Kobe has this high scoring hype and Greg Anthony is carrying Kobe's cojones on his chin. Yes, Kobe is a great scoring talent...one of the best of our era.....but ever?! I think Greg Anthony is secretly a Laker employee. Magic doesn't even say ridiculous things like that.

[Knoe Itawl]

I just wish I knew why this offensive force can't shoot 50% for a season. Or 49%. Or even 48%. I know to his fans it "doesn't matter' but then if it's no big deal, why hasn't he ever done it? Even with Shaq taking defensive pressure away from him?

He's a chucker who will get hot enough a few times a year for all this garbage to start up again.

[Younggrease]

Greg Anthony has once again proven he's a douche. At the beginning of the year he said the Lakers were a finals team. He just bought into the early season record hype. Now Kobe has this high scoring hype and Greg Anthony is carrying Kobe's cojones on his chin. Yes, Kobe is a great scoring talent...one of the best of our era.....but ever?! I think Greg Anthony is secretly a Laker employee. Magic doesn't even say ridiculous things like that.

Magic has said basically the same thing about Kobe's skill set and scoring ability

[bleedinpurple]

The Topic is "the most complete offensive player ever"

Not "complete scorer"...Those 2 are different

Kobe Can't pass well

The Most Complete Offenisve Player = MJ

/end thread

"can't pass well"??? dude, he is the second leading assist man amongst SGs (behind TMac; 3rd if you count DWade as a SG). He is also on pace to be a top-30 all-time assists, at any position.

[JtotheIzzo]

I just wish I knew why this offensive force can't shoot 50% for a season. Or 49%. Or even 48%. I know to his fans it "doesn't matter' but then if it's no big deal, why hasn't he ever done it? Even with Shaq taking defensive pressure away from him?

He's a chucker who will get hot enough a few times a year for all this garbage to start up again.


this thread has gotten so preposterous that it actually needs Knoe Itawl to bring it back down to Earth

Know you provide a very valuable service around here, and only today I realize how much you're needed

[SoCalMike]

well that's too falkin bad isnt it

what did I say that was wrong?

It is a retort to some falkin moron calling him the best offensive player ever

hardly harsh and pretty falkin accurate if you ask me

grow some onions lil boy

I've defended Kobe when the time was right, just today infact, I said he was the best scorer in the game

but 'ever', cmon dude, even your homeristic avatar cant even fool you on that. The NBA is in a lull, Steve Nash is winning MVP, and you want to call a gunner on a mediocre team best ever, in this weak ass era

forget that nonsense

Jizzo aint havin it

You want to talk smack, but your arguments are BS... and you know it. There is no fact here. If you want to retort someone's opinion, do it with reason, not a buch a BS like you posted. And you KNOW exactly what I mean. The arguments you listed were the DUMBEST one's possible.

I personally DO NOT agree with Greg Anthony's comments as well. To try to keep comparing him as the best just shows he's not a true study of the NBA and is trying to attract attention.


:pimp:

[glidedrxlr22]

this thread has gotten so preposterous that it actually needs Knoe Itawl to bring it back down to Earth

Know you provide a very valuable service around here, and only today I realize how much you're needed

Amen to that brotha!

[SoCalMike]

I just wish I knew why this offensive force can't shoot 50% for a season. Or 49%. Or even 48%. I know to his fans it "doesn't matter' but then if it's no big deal, why hasn't he ever done it? Even with Shaq taking defensive pressure away from him?

He's a chucker who will get hot enough a few times a year for all this garbage to start up again.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34374



:pimp:

[saKf]

If you guys disagree, post REASONS, not just "no, duh."

[hwliuLAP]

has a huge scorer ever been as multifaceted as #24?

finishes at the rim
hits midrange off screens
hits long range off screens
hits midrange off dribble
hits long range off dribble
hits 3s
gets to the line
scores from the high post

other than a power low post game (which i can't think of a guard except jordan and jr rider who ever really had one) he's an amazingly complete scorer.

but then the quote says "most complete offensive player ever."

he's a good passer. not top ten or anything, but he reads the triangle beautifully and hits guys off the dribble, from the air, and out of the post.

he's a terrific ball-handler. maybe not their with iverson and nash, but not far off and great for a 6' 6" guy.

i don't know if it's fair to say he's the most complete offensive player ever. it's hard to compare power players and perimeter players on this subject, so i'd break it into two camps. on the perimeter camp, kobe's got an argument. even though he lacked the explosiveness, i'd still go with bird who finished great at the rim despite his lack of hops, shot from any range, passed better than about 99.8% of all point guards, handled well for a forward and was super clutch. jordan's in the argument. i am a huge homer though for both of them. how about magic, who by 1990 when his three started to become reliable from deep and is of course a vastly superior creator for others. it's an interesting topic because you need to factor in so many things.


I guess my question would be shooting wise, who do you think was better
Jordan or Kobe
but yes, I don't think Kobe is THE best just yet
and he will not be if this is the peak of his prime
but if he still has two more yrs left to peak,
that'd be a different story
becase then he should be in the conversation on who's the best

the most impressive thing about him after post-shaq
and after being young, is his ability to shoot the ball anywhere with anyone on him (and yes there are times where he just doesn't shoot well)
but earlier in his career, he was a lot more explosive
and just went at the basket every single time.

when he can shoot, he can literally SHOOT

[Younggrease]

Can someone name me a more complete scorer than Kobe Bryant????

[JtotheIzzo]

You want to talk smack, but your arguments are BS... and you know it. There is no fact here. If you want to retort someone's opinion, do it with reason, not a buch a BS like you posted. And you KNOW exactly what I mean. The arguments you listed were the DUMBEST one's possible.

I personally DO NOT agree with Greg Anthony's comments as well. To try to keep comparing him as the best just shows he's not a true study of the NBA and is trying to attract attention.


:pimp:

whatever dude, what I said was fact

crawl back under your rock

second paragraph very tight though:pimp:

[Rab]

Greg Anthony has once again proven he's a douche. At the beginning of the year he said the Lakers were a finals team. He just bought into the early season record hype. Now Kobe has this high scoring hype and Greg Anthony is carrying Kobe's cojones on his chin. Yes, Kobe is a great scoring talent...one of the best of our era.....but ever?! I think Greg Anthony is secretly a Laker employee. Magic doesn't even say ridiculous things like that.
Thank You!!!

Greg Anthony is a complete moron, and he rides Kobe's jock all the time. Obviously, Kobe is one of the best offensive talents the game has seen, but the best EVER....no. It's that simple.


I just wish I knew why this offensive force can't shoot 50% for a season. Or 49%. Or even 48%. I know to his fans it "doesn't matter' but then if it's no big deal, why hasn't he ever done it? Even with Shaq taking defensive pressure away from him?

Not too mention MJ did that without EVER having a player of Shaq's caliber on the block.


He simply has no flaw in his offensive game, other than decision-making

That alone makes MJ better.

[SoCalMike]

whatever dude, what I said was fact

crawl back under your rock

second paragraph very tight though:pimp:

What you said was pretty idiotic and not based in any level of rationality. You are myopic because you either don't like the player or his fans or whatever.

I'd say idiot ban, but I am sure its been said to you before.

Please bring back some rational thought to your arguments. Its a tired act.




:pimp:

[plupiter]

If you change the word "offensive" to "scorer" I think there can be a reasonable argument made. By using the broader term "offensive" you have to include passing, rebounding, and shot selection, which would eliminate Kobe from the conversation.

What you have to understand is that complete doesn't mean best. The best scorer would be the player that was most difficult to stop, and that's probably Wilt. The most complete scorer would be able to score in the most ways excellently--and Kobe can score in a lot of ways excellently.

Now Jordan is obviously the paradigmatic complete perimeter scorer, and Kobe can compare with Jordan in a lot of areas and even surpass Jordan in a couple areas. (I'll say Jordan is a "better" scorer not to confuse things, like Wilt may be the "best" scorer, because Jordan was more consistently unstoppable than Kobe, and with today's rules may well average 40 pts a game on a bad team.)

Kobe is a better three point shooter than Jordan and a better ball handler than Jordan was. Jordan was not stellar in those areas. I don't think Kobe has any weaknesses as a scorer.

[bleedinpurple]

I just wish I knew why this offensive force can't shoot 50% for a season. Or 49%. Or even 48%. I know to his fans it "doesn't matter' but then if it's no big deal, why hasn't he ever done it? Even with Shaq taking defensive pressure away from him?

He's a chucker who will get hot enough a few times a year for all this garbage to start up again.

I would love to see Kobe average 48%.
Amongst all guards averaging at least 20ppg (meaning they are relied upon to be a scorer), Kobe is 4th in FG%...that's not bad...esp as the leading scorer in the league.
Over the past 3 games, which of course is not a season/career, he is averaging 54%...that's surreal.

[Loki]

This is actually one of Anthony's statements that isn't so outrageous. Kobe can do all of the things that Jordan did offensively plus he has better range. That makes him, by definition, more "complete."

However, in every area aside from 3-point shooting, he was Jordan's inferior to a small-to-large degree depending on the offensive area in question (e.g., midrange shooting, footwork, post game, off-the-ball movement etc.; to say nothing of decision-making/reading defenses). Add those up and Jordan is still the more effective offensive player by a decent margin. But Kobe is more complete.

[Brunch@Five]

I just wish I knew why this offensive force can't shoot 50% for a season. Or 49%. Or even 48%. I know to his fans it "doesn't matter' but then if it's no big deal, why hasn't he ever done it? Even with Shaq taking defensive pressure away from him?

He's a chucker who will get hot enough a few times a year for all this garbage to start up again.

what flaws does Kobe have in his game?

- decision-making/attitude
- ?

also, he currently is shootin 47% from the floor, and has been shooting that for most of his career.
Also, it has been established numerous times that his scoring efficiency (points per attempt) is right on par with MJ and other scoring greats. He simply is shooting more threes.

[JtotheIzzo]

What you said was pretty idiotic and not based in any level of rationality. You are myopic because you either don't like the player or his fans or whatever.

I'd say idiot ban, but I am sure its been said to you before.

Please bring back some rational thought to your arguments. Its a tired act.




:pimp:

look Mike

you wanna throw around best ever tags, you have to answer to all your performances, its like running for president

if he is the best scorer ever, why have his teams not won anything post Deisel?

especially in this shiiit era

why could he not participate in his team's offense last year in the second half of game seven?

these are legitimate questions

sorry if I am digging at old wounds

[SoCalMike]

This is actually one of Anthony's statements that isn't so outrageous. Kobe can do all of the things that Jordan did offensively plus he has better range. That makes him, by definition, more "complete."

However, in every area aside from 3-point shooting, he was Jordan's inferior to a small-to-large degree depending on the offensive area in question (e.g., midrange shooting, footwork, post game, off-the-ball movement etc.; to say nothing of decision-making/reading defenses). Add those up and Jordan is still the more effective offensive player by a decent margin. But Kobe is more complete.

Interesting perspective... I just think there are likely other players in the history of the game that I would consider better. I'll have to give that some thought as to who makes that list other than Jordan.



:pimp:

[CakeorDeath]

Can someone name me a more complete scorer than Kobe Bryant????

Maybe not, but the statement was regarding the most complete offensive player, not scorer. To me, Nash's 20 ppg and 11.5 apg are more indicative of a complete offensive player than Kobe's 30 ppg/5.5 apg.

[plupiter]

This is actually one of Anthony's statements that isn't so outrageous. Kobe can do all of the things that Jordan did offensively plus he has better range. That makes him, by definition, more "complete."

However, in every area aside from 3-point shooting, he was Jordan's inferior to a small-to-large degree depending on the offensive area in question (e.g., midrange shooting, footwork, post game, off-the-ball movement etc.).

I agree and would add that Kobe is a better ball handler than Jordan as well.

[Knoe Itawl]

Kobe is a better three point shooter than Jordan and a better ball handler than Jordan was. Jordan was not stellar in those areas. I don't think Kobe has any weaknesses as a scorer.

No. I defy you to watch a lot of vintate Jordan footage and say that. I've seen him do some unbelievable stuff in heavy traffic, on breaks, etc. It's simply not true.

And I would love to see Kobe face just ONE team that would punish him like those Knicks and Pistons teams punished people. The closest he ever faced to something like that was the current Pistons team (with Wallace) and we see how he fared. And they were nowhere near the type of brutal team those squads were. And of course they didn't have these current rules for guarding perimeter players as well.

[Brunch@Five]

Maybe not, but the statement was regarding the most complete offensive player, not scorer. To me, Nash's 20 ppg and 11.5 apg are more indicative of a complete offensive player than Kobe's 30 ppg/5.5 apg.

seriously, what can Nash do other than shoot and drive + kick? Don't get me wrong, he is the best in the league in those two things, but:
He is not a great finisher at the rim, has no post game whatsoever, does not have a midrange game comparable to Kobe, has less range....

[Indian guy]

You can definitely make a case for Kobe for being the most complete offensive player of all time. Not the best/most effective scorer, but the most complete scorer. Let's see: Has unlimited range and is consistently a BIG threat from deep. Great mid-range game. The best handles of any player around his size which makes him IMO the best shot creator of all time. Solid in the post. Good footwork. Excellent slasher and finisher. Skills wise he has no weaknesses. He's indeed got the complete package. MJ had everything Kobe currently has(w/ superior speed/quickness/post game/transition game and basketball IQ) but he didn't have the long range game.

[SoCalMike]

look Mike

you wanna throw around best ever tags, you have to answer to all your performances, its like running for president

if he is the best scorer ever, why have his teams not won anything post Deisel?

especially in this shiiit era

why could he not participate in his team's offense last year in the second half of game seven?

these are legitimate questions

sorry if I am digging at old wounds

You completely do not understand basketball if you want to maintain these assertions. You can talk all the BS smack you want, but you don't know hoop. Learn by paying attention to some of the experts.

There are absolutely no wounds here dumbass. You obviously have not been reading what I have been saying. Its disappointing and its clear you would rather argue based on stupid and weak merits than engage in intelligent hoop dialog.

Pathetic....



:pimp:

[Rab]

No. I defy you to watch a lot of vintate Jordan footage and say that. I've seen him do some unbelievable stuff in heavy traffic, on breaks, etc. It's simply not true.

And I would love to see Kobe face just ONE team that would punish him like those Knicks and Pistons teams punished people. The closest he ever faced to something like that was the current Pistons team (with Wallace) and we see how he fared. And they were nowhere near the type of brutal team those squads were. And of course they didn't have these current rules for guarding perimeter players as well.
Co-sign.

[Loki]

Jordan was not stellar in those areas.

Jordan was the best handling SG/SF from '85-'93. His handle was fluid, fundamentally solid, and creative. Not sure how he's considered "not stellar" in that area. Three-point shooting, sure. Kobe's a better ballhandler in an "And-1" sense (I don't think he gets to where he wants on the court with his handle any easier than Jordan did), but to say that Jordan was a poor handler is just wrong.

[Younggrease]

This thread is filling up fast...if kobe ever wins a championship i predict ISH will be offline for weeks due to traffic.

[Rab]

As much as I don't care for Kobe Bryant, I have no problem admitting he's one of the best, but not the best.

There is no question in my mind that MJ had it all.

[KINGofTHEcourt]

Kobe is a better three point shooter than Jordan and a better ball handler than Jordan was. Jordan was not stellar in those areas. I don't think Kobe has any weaknesses as a scorer.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that Kobe is a better ball handler than Jordan :confusedshrug: . Have you ever seen when Jordan got out of a corner doubleteam along the baseline and dunked on Ewing in the playoffs. I've never seen Bryant do anything even remotely close to that. Jordan was by far a superior ball handler.

[Loki]

also, he currently is shootin 47% from the floor, and has been shooting that for most of his career.

Not really. He's at 46.5% this season and hasn't shot above 45.1% in any of the past 4 seasons.


Also, it has been established numerous times that his scoring efficiency (points per attempt) is right on par with MJ and other scoring greats. He simply is shooting more threes.

Not really. Whether it be FG%, eFG%, TS% (the latter two of which account for 3's), ppfga, points per possession, Offensive Rating (ORtg), or % above league average in any of these categories, Kobe's efficiency simply pales in comparison to Jordan's.

[Knoe Itawl]

Anyone who says that Kobe is a better ball handler than Jordan just didn't watch him play, period.

Go watch vintate Jordan before talking out of your ass, that's all I ask.

[dejordan]

Jordan was the best handling SG/SF from '85-'93. His handle was fluid, fundamentally solid, and creative. Not sure how he's considered "not stellar" in that area. Three-point shooting, sure.
he wasn't a bad 3 pt shooter when the team asked him to shoot them a lot. when he put up more than 200 in a season he shot it at .350 which is a good %age. it just didn't make sense for him to take a lot with kerr, kukoc, buchler, paxson, hodges, and bj on his team. it was his job to set them up not the other way around. not say he's as good a bomber as kobe, but i wouldn't say that was an actual hole in mj's game most of his career.

[Indian guy]

Jordan was the best handling SG/SF from '85-'93. His handle was fluid, fundamentally solid, and creative. Not sure how he's considered "not stellar" in that area. Three-point shooting, sure.

People who underrate MJ's ball handling in general are those who strictly saw of him during the 2nd 3peat or as a Wizard. By then he'd mostly operate in the post and his handle had become quite simple.

But pre-1st retirement MJ had all the moves in the book and he'd use 'em too.

[bleedinpurple]

I don't agree with Greg Anthony. If Kobe averaged 48%, then I would agree. But even then, todays no-touch environment is easier than even the 1990s, and certainly easier than the 80s.

Nonetheless, the fact that this is even a question means Kobe is a VERY SPECIAL player and, as Tyson Chandler said, "we are watching GREATNESS".

[plupiter]

No. I defy you to watch a lot of vintate Jordan footage and say that. I've seen him do some unbelievable stuff in heavy traffic, on breaks, etc. It's simply not true.

I think what you see in the vintage footage is Jordan's unprecedented athleticism enabling him to pull off incredible moves with slightly above average (by NBA standards) ball handling skill. Things like taking one behind the back dribble and jumping from the dotted line to dunk, or making Barry Sandars-like changes of direction on the break. Once he slowed down in the mid nineties, it was much more about taking two to three dribbles and getting to a spot. Kobe reminds me of more like a soccer player the way they handle the ball.

[Loki]

People who underrate MJ's ball handling in general are those who strictly saw of him during the 2nd 3peat or as a Wizard. By then he'd mostly operate in the post and his handle had become quite simple.

But pre-1st retirement MJ had all the moves in the book and he'd use 'em too.

I find that to be the case as well (about those who underrate his handle).

dejordan, I never said it was a weakness -- a weakness is something that another team can exploit. Jordan's career suggests that no one was able to capitalize on any such weakness. But he certainly wasn't stellar as a 3-pt shooter. His 3-pt shooting is odd, however, but it probably deserves its own thread. In his high volume 3FGA seasons (190 and '93) he shot 35.3% and 37.8% iirc, and he averaged 39% from 3 in the '93 postseason on 4 attempts per game.

[dejordan]

anybody else with me on larry bird being the most complete offensive player ever? again he didn't have the ups, but he finished great around the basket with high archers and crazy angles. he had range like crazy, great mid-range, came off screens, posted up, took bigs off the dribble, and passed it better than any scorer of his caliber ever has. only real negative is tricky ball-handling, and that was never an issue. he could still split doubles and get by defenders because they had to honor all his ball fakes.

[AIR_ball_Jordan]

"can't pass well"??? dude, he is the second leading assist man amongst SGs (behind TMac; 3rd if you count DWade as a SG). He is also on pace to be a top-30 all-time assists, at any position.

by "can't pass well" I don't mean he doesn't have good passing ability, but the decision making between pass/shooting...Kobe is a obiously shooting first guard.. and sometimes he gets too caught up on shooting and start chucking up bad shots even if his teammates are open. There's little reason that Kobe can't average the same number of assist that Lebron does.

Also, imho, I don't really think for how much Kobe dominate the ball, his assist numbers doesn't seem too impressive.

[SoCalMike]

anybody else with me on larry bird being the most complete offensive player ever? again he didn't have the ups, but he finished great around the basket with high archers and crazy angles. he had range like crazy, great mid-range, came off screens, posted up, took bigs off the dribble, and passed it better than any scorer of his caliber ever has. only real negative is tricky ball-handling, and that was never an issue. he could still split doubles and get by defenders because they had to honor all his ball fakes.

He is definitely one player that came to my mind when thinking about this....



:pimp:

[Rab]

He is definitely one player that came to my mind when thinking about this....



:pimp:
Agreed. Bird should be up there as well.

[plupiter]

Anyone who says that Kobe is a better ball handler than Jordan just didn't watch him play, period.

Hey I saw him in person every time he came to Philly from '87 -'90. I was at the game he set the Spectrum floor record. I saw him score 20+ fourth quarter points in a playoff game a night after he was caught in Atlantic City at 3am. The guy was the most amazing athlete I've ever seen by far. When I watched him I thought "this guy would dominate against a species of basketball players that had evolved one order of magnitude higher than our own". He had practically infinite skill in the eighties.

I don't think he was a great ball handler, and I think Kobe is a better ball handler than he was.

[bleedinpurple]

by "can't pass well" I don't mean he doesn't have good passing ability, but the decision making between pass/shooting...Kobe is a obiously shooting first guard.. and sometimes he gets too caught up on shooting and start chucking up bad shots even if his teammates are open. There's little reason that Kobe can't average the same number of assist that Lebron does.

Also, imho, I don't really think for how much Kobe dominate the ball, his assist numbers doesn't seem too impressive.

fair enuf.
his historically average FG% suggests that he could improve in that regard.
:cheers:

[shok]

it's all personal perspective. Even as a fan of the Lakers and Kobe, MJ was the GOAT and forever will be.

[SRZ66]

oh greg, what are you gonna say next?

[Younggrease]

by "can't pass well" I don't mean he doesn't have good passing ability, but the decision making between pass/shooting...Kobe is a obiously shooting first guard.. and sometimes he gets too caught up on shooting and start chucking up bad shots even if his teammates are open. There's little reason that Kobe can't average the same number of assist that Lebron does.

Also, imho, I don't really think for how much Kobe dominate the ball, his assist numbers doesn't seem too impressive.

Kobe doesnt dominate the ball like Lebron. EVen when Kobe scores 60 he never really has the ball in his hands for more 3 seconds on a position. HE moves without the gets it in a good postion and either pulls the trigger or makes a quick move.

Lebron on the other hand just runs screens and rolls and dribbles the ball a lot without purpose. Kobe scoring 60 he still might have the ball in his hands less than lebron on an average night.

[bleedinpurple]

Tonight's prediction:
Kobe does NOT score 30 pts, nor shoots over 48%.
He can't possibly have the legs to do that (long night last night).
Back-to-back...too brutal.

[AIR_ball_Jordan]

fair enuf.
his historically average FG% suggests that he could improve in that regard.
:cheers:


:cheers:
Yes, I agree...after all, Kobe's still 28.
and he'll have a way to go in his career.

[Indian guy]

I don't think he was a great ball handler, and I think Kobe is a better ball handler than he was.

Pre-1st retirement MJ(88-91 MJ to be more specific) had terrific handles. But he is NOT better than Kobe. Sorry, Knoe :D. Can't agree with you there.

[Indian guy]

Kobe doesnt dominate the ball like Lebron. EVen when Kobe scores 60 he never really has the ball in his hands for more 3 seconds on a position. HE moves without the gets it in a good postion and either pulls the trigger or makes a quick move.

That's because Kobe's role is to score. He attacks from the wing. The LAKERS don't count on him to be a playmaker for others. That's why on the average day he doesn't have the ball in his hands as much as LeBron.

And you're out of you mind if you think LeBron on an average night(especially this season under their new crappy system) touches the ball anywhere close to the number of times Kobe has the last 3 games.

[Younggrease]

That's because Kobe's role is to score. He attacks from the wing. The LAKERS don't count on him to be a playmaker for others. That's why he doesn't have the ball in his hands as much as LeBron.

And you're out of you mind if you think LeBron on an average night(especially this season under their new crappy system) touches the ball anywhere close to the number of times Kobe has the last 3 games.


your right this year Lebron isnt touching the ball that much...maybe i was thinking about last year. But he doesnt hold the ball or dominate time of possession like people say, he shoots a lot without dominating time with the ball. It is a testament to how well he moves without the ball.

[dejordan]

your right this year Lebron isnt touching the ball that much...maybe i was thinking about last year. But he doesnt hold the ball or dominate time of possession like people say, he shoots a lot without dominating time with the ball. It is a testament to how well he moves without the ball.
kobe has improved dramatically in his off-ball game over the past 3 years. he's really fun to watch coming off screens and moving back door, you can tell he gets frustrated when his guys don't find him on good slashs and curls, but he doesn't give up and stand around anymore. very impressive.

[hwliuLAP]

Tonight's prediction:
Kobe does NOT score 30 pts, nor shoots over 48%.
He can't possibly have the legs to do that (long night last night).
Back-to-back...too brutal.


We'll see
last night Kobe didn't had to force that many shots
a lot of the shots were created off Odom and Walton passing
this kid name Smush parker even had 9 and 7 Assist off the last two games

Kobe is finishing off of his teammates instead of creating his own shot now.

Now if the team played some D............
then the Lakers should be fine
but if it's still a close game by 4th quarter and he still has to chuck up shots
that's when things could become tough

[Loki]

eighties.

I don't think he was a great ball handler, and I think Kobe is a better ball handler than he was.

I agree with the latter part, but not the former. How can a guy who was the best handling 2/3 in the league for 8+ seasons not be a great ballhandler? Fundamentally, his assist/TO ratio was great for a SG, and he had low TO's in general despite high usage and defensive pressure. There's a reason for that. His handle was efficient, creative, and fundamentally sound. I've seen Jordan do things with the ball in games that I've never seen anyone else do.

[Dr. Pimpski]

especially in this shiiit eraIf you think this era with Nash, Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, Wade and Lebron is ****, you might as well stop watching pro basketball.

An intelligent case can be made for Kobe as the most complete player, just as an intelligent case can be made for MJ and others.

[PMshooter]

i don't know if it's fair to say he's the most complete offensive player ever. it's hard to compare power players and perimeter players on this subject, so i'd break it into two camps. on the perimeter camp, kobe's got an argument. even though he lacked the explosiveness, i'd still go with bird who finished great at the rim despite his lack of hops, shot from any range, passed better than about 99.8% of all point guards, handled well for a forward and was super clutch. jordan's in the argument. i am a huge homer though for both of them. how about magic, who by 1990 when his three started to become reliable from deep and is of course a vastly superior creator for others. it's an interesting topic because you need to factor in so many things.

I think there's a strong argument for him being the most complete offensive active player, but I don't think ever either.

You've got MJ, who could do pretty much everything Kobe does and at a little higher % (Kobe takes a lot more very long range shots than MJ did - MJ worked harder to get a nice mid range shot when he could - and Kobe is better at it I think).

Like you said, Bird and Magic could do it from anywhere, and Magic had a great post game, too. They were both better passers than Kobe, too.

Kobe's past three games have been ridiculous though. He's shooting 50% from the field, and 90 something % from the line. He's been on fire, hitting shots from pretty much anywhere. I haven't seen this kind of performance, maybe ever. He's transcending the game, and if it goes one more game, it's going to blow my mind, maaan.

BTW, as a side note, Odom had a huge night last night, too.

[Dr. Pimpski]

You've got MJ, who could do pretty much everything Kobe does and at a little higher % (Kobe takes a lot more very long range shots than MJ did - MJ worked harder to get a nice mid range shot when he could - and Kobe is better at it I think).
Those long range shots are worth more points. The point of basketball is to score more points than the other team; not to have a better shooting percentage.

[hwliuLAP]

Those long range shots are worth more points. The point of basketball is to score more points than the other team; not to have a better shooting percentage.

That's probably why when Walker was asked about why you take so many 3s?
"Because there's no 4s"
:roll:

just playing

[dejordan]

Those long range shots are worth more points. The point of basketball is to score more points than the other team; not to have a better shooting percentage.
that's an antoine walker quote, right? (whoops, hwliulap beat me to it)

everytime the best creater on a team shoots a three, the other guys on the floor become useless. everytime the best creater on a team drives the ball to the paint or plays it from the high post, he creates shifts in the defense and makes his teammates dangerous. that's why when guys like kobe and mj go for 60 it's usually in a very tight game. that's also why dallas is so much better all of the sudden. instead of having dirk sit at the three point line while other players try to get him open bombs, dirk is at the high post creating open lanes, open shots, and easy offense rebounds for all of his teammates.

[PMshooter]

Those long range shots are worth more points. The point of basketball is to score more points than the other team; not to have a better shooting percentage.

Long range shots aren't limited to 3-pointers. Kobe takes a lot of shots just inside, or a foot or two inside of the 3 point line. MJ would often try to get those in at least a little closer. That's pretty much a matter of preference though.

But missed long range shots lead to fast breaks and easy points. They make it harder to set up your D, etc . . . The object of the game is score more than your opponents, sure, but you do that through defense as well as offense.

Plus, the difference between 45% and 50% FG adds up when you take 20+ shots a game in total points as well. But that's just on regular field goals. Kobe shoots 37% from 3, so I'm not even sure if that extra point is necessarily worth it.

[plupiter]

I agree with the latter part, but not the former. How can a guy who was the best handling 2/3 in the league for 8+ seasons not be a great ballhandler? Fundamentally, his assist/TO ratio was great for a SG, and he had low TO's in general despite high usage and defensive pressure. There's a reason for that. His handle was efficient, creative, and fundamentally sound. I've seen Jordan do things with the ball in games that I've never seen anyone else do.

First, I'd really have to think about whether your assertion is true regarding him being the best ball handler for those 8+ years. Did he have better ball control or could he do more with a good handle because he was so tremendously athletic, and had preternatural body control? There are highschool point guards that have unbelievable ball handling skills, but can't do anything on a college level because of their lack of athleticism.

Second, low turnover rate doesn't of necessity mean great ball handling skill. It means smart decision-making. Most people agree that Drexler didn't have a great handle and his turnover rate is similar to Jordan's. Isiah Thomas had as good a handle as anyone and he turned the ball over more. (I know Thomas has a higher assist to turnover ratio, but so does Drexler).

I think people confuse Jordan's athleticism and body control with ball handling.

[dejordan]

Long range shots aren't limited to 3-pointers. Kobe takes a lot of shots just inside, or a foot or two inside of the 3 point line. MJ would often try to get those in at least a little closer. That's pretty much a matter of preference though.

But missed long range shots lead to fast breaks and easy points. They make it harder to set up your D, etc . . . The object of the game is score more than your opponents, sure, but you do that through defense as well as offense.

Plus, the difference between 45% and 50% FG adds up when you take 20+ shots a game in total points as well. But that's just on regular field goals. Kobe shoots 37% from 3, so I'm not even sure if that extra point is necessarily worth it.
actually in terms of overall efficiency 37% from three is better than 45% from 2 (which i really is undercut by the fact that he takes so many threes, but you know what i mean). the problem is that taking threes doesn't put pressure on the d. it stretches the d. if your best player is stretching the d, who is getting doubled or penetrating and causing rotations to take advantage of that stretched d? i'm not trying to rip on kobe in any way. with their best 3 popint shooter hurt it basically falls on him to take control of their outside game, and he's doing a great job. i just think in most cases you need your best player doing more creating and less bombing. however his ability to nail big shots from deep and build a quick lead on jumpers is awesome.

[dejordan]

I think people confuse Jordan's athleticism and body control with ball handling.
i was going to ask you about this when you posted the first time. i found it odd that you considered jordan's ballhandling somewhat pedestrian. the two best players i've seen at splitting a double team were definitely allen iverson and michael jordan, and it seemed strange that someone who saw michael back in the day would doubt his skills off the dribble. then it occured to me that maybe you were making a separation between handles and effectiveness, sort of giving mj the nod for raw quickness and explosiveness but not so much for creativity on the bounce. i don't have a problem with that. i think he's still upper-ecshelon, but i wouldn't say he has an many dribbling moves as an isiah, iverson, or a kobe.

[Sean77]

what does that have to do with being a comlete scorer...It has only been 2 years since Shaq has left. 1 of those years he and Odom were hurt and changed coaches. Why good what he can and cant do on a 2 year sample????

Again what does that have to do with the topioc. Jordan at 28 =0 titles leading a team as well.
Kobe's one of the greatest, but not the greatest. Here's why:

1) Can't use the Jordan at 28 comparison, because if Jordan was on that same team at the same age, he'd have gotten three rings by 28 too.

2) There are only two people who ever scored 3,000 points in a single year: Wilt and Jordan. Kobe got close last year(2,832), but consider Jordan got his 3,000 when the rules favored the defense. Kobe got his under the rules which favor the offense.

3) Postseason mastery is a big factor in the GOAT discussions. It's what helps create legends. Kobe has one three-peat; Jordan has two. You do the math.


4)Jordan was the #1 man on his championship teams. Kobe was #2, and he knows it. When Kobe becomes #1 on a championship team, like Tim Duncan did on his 'chip, then.

5)Jordan has a lifetime average of 30.1ppg, making him all-time leader. Kobe's is 24.2. Unless he surpasses Jordan, nobody can say he's the best ever.


Kobe is no doubt the best offensive player of his time, but not all-time. To be the best, you have to beat the best. Muhammad Ali is called the Greatest because he fought during the best period for heavyweight boxing and beat all of the best in that time. Jordan is the best because he played during one of the best period of the NBA in terms of talented players(late 80's to late '90), and dominated during that time. When Kobe can make a similar claim, then we can talk.

[plupiter]

then it occured to me that maybe you were making a separation between handles and effectiveness, sort of giving mj the nod for raw quickness and explosiveness but not so much for creativity on the bounce.

Admittedly, it's a difficult separation to make because the net result is that MJ actually could do more with the ball than anyone. The mental picture I have is of dribbling drills going around pylons with between the legs change of directions. Young Jordan would get through the drill quicker than anyone (even Iverson I would say), but I don't think he'd be controlling the ball that well.

And I should probably come up with a more exact formulation of how I would characterize his handle as well. Initially, I used "not stellar", which could mean anything. Maybe above average? Not great or excellent level by NBA guard standards.

[number23]

This is so retarted, i want to slap Greg Anthony.

[GOBB]

Attacking the rim
Low post game
Midrange Game
Behind the arc

He does all equally well. No area on the court he cant excel and score.

[GOBB]

Kobe is no doubt the best offensive player of his time, but not all-time. To be the best, you have to beat the best. Muhammad Ali is called the Greatest because he fought during the best period for heavyweight boxing and beat all of the best in that time. Jordan is the best because he played during one of the best period of the NBA in terms of talented players(late 80's to late '90), and dominated during that time. When Kobe can make a similar claim, then we can talk.

MJ started dominating/winning titles when the Celtics and Lakers dynasties fell thru. Lucky him.

[hwliuLAP]

Does anyone have any stats about when does Kobe shoots 3s?
in most of my memories Kobe only shoots 3s when
1. The kid is hot, the games where he drops 50+, he shoots that 3 ball over .40
2. When Lakers is down in the 4th, I can't re-call Kobe just being a chucker
and being in loved with 3s, he drives and take those mid-long rage 2s a lot
but again, I could be biased.

Anyone got stats on that?

[Loki]

First, I'd really have to think about whether your assertion is true regarding him being the best ball handler for those 8+ years.

This is easy to answer: name on better handling SG/SF from '85-'93.



I think people confuse Jordan's athleticism and body control with ball handling.

Not me. He got wherever he wanted to go on the court regardless of defensive pressure or the situation.

[hwliuLAP]

Kobe's one of the greatest, but not the greatest. Here's why:

2) There are only two people who ever scored 3,000 points in a single year: Wilt and Jordan. Kobe got close last year(2,832), but consider Jordan got his 3,000 when the rules favored the defense. Kobe got his under the rules which favor the offense.

3) Postseason mastery is a big factor in the GOAT discussions. It's what helps create legends. Kobe has one three-peat; Jordan has two. You do the math.

4)Jordan was the #1 man on his championship teams. Kobe was #2, and he knows it. When Kobe becomes #1 on a championship team, like Tim Duncan did on his 'chip, then.

5)Jordan has a lifetime average of 30.1ppg, making him all-time leader. Kobe's is 24.2. Unless he surpasses Jordan, nobody can say he's the best ever.



Ehhh, can you tell the difference between the "most complete"
and the "best/highest scorer" of all time?

The difference is.......
well, being the most complete means you can pretty much score
at any place on the floor with effeciency.
best/highest scorer means..... you can score a lot.

I hope this english lesson helped

[number23]

MJ started dominating/winning titles when the Celtics and Lakers dynasties fell thru. Lucky him.


Who had the lakers defeated that make Kobe the greatest ever. Get a grip.

[Younggrease]

what is the scouting report on Kobe???? i have no idea what coaches tell people when guarding him one on one

[GOBB]

Who had the lakers defeated that make Kobe the greatest ever. Get a grip.

I never claimed Kobe was the greatest slapnuts. Wilt is. I just pointed out part of the argument that I found funny. MJ was great without a doubt and has an damn good argument for best/greatest ever. But lets not act like his road to glory was one where he slayed a million persians and didnt die. The posters tried to use Ali and MJ and I'm sorry but Ali beat great heavyweights whereas MJ didnt beat great teams. When you look up the heavys Ali defeated you'll see where they rank all time. When you look up the teams MJ defeated on the all time list they wont be high. Thats the point I'm making.

So u get a grip punk.

[GOBB]

what is the scouting report on Kobe???? i have no idea what coaches tell people when guarding him one on one

Same thing they say about any explosive scorer...make him beat you with his jumper and contest every shot. Make it difficult for him to get good/easy looks. You want Kobe to take that MJ fadeawat like 2 steps inside the arc because its really a bad shot. You want him forcing shots with hands in his fae. Thats what you tell them. You act like there is no scouting report. :oldlol:

Often when a guy like Kobe gets hot and is on a roll...you focus on his teammates. You then adjust and let Kobe get his and stop his teammates because Kobe cant outscore an opponent by himself in 4 quarters of action.

[number23]

I never claimed Kobe was the greatest slapnuts. Wilt is. I just pointed out part of the argument that I found funny. MJ was great without a doubt and has an damn good argument for best/greatest ever. But lets not act like his road to glory was one where he slayed a million persians and didnt die. The posters tried to use Ali and MJ and I'm sorry but Ali beat great heavyweights whereas MJ didnt beat great teams. When you look up the heavys Ali defeated you'll see where they rank all time. When you look up the teams MJ defeated on the all time list they wont be high. Thats the point I'm making.

So u get a grip punk.


First of all, try talking to me like you have graduated from high school. Secondly, Detroit was a great team, the Lakers were still a great team. And the 2 Utah teams were not excatly scrubs. 2 HOF's were playing great ball on that team. Not to mention denfense in the NBA during the Jordan era was MUCH more aggresive and challenging from the times Wilt played, and the times Kobe NOW plays in.

[dejordan]

I never claimed Kobe was the greatest slapnuts. Wilt is. I just pointed out part of the argument that I found funny. MJ was great without a doubt and has an damn good argument for best/greatest ever. But lets not act like his road to glory was one where he slayed a million persians and didnt die. The posters tried to use Ali and MJ and I'm sorry but Ali beat great heavyweights whereas MJ didnt beat great teams. When you look up the heavys Ali defeated you'll see where they rank all time. When you look up the teams MJ defeated on the all time list they wont be high. Thats the point I'm making.

So u get a grip punk.
this is true and really can't be disputed. but the counter is simply that his team wasn't loaded like magic's and bird's were either. also age / time is a factor. the bulls eventually swept the pistons who defeated the celts and lakers, but by the time chicago was good enough to compete for a title kareem and cooper were gone from la, dj and ainge were gone from boston, and lb, mchale, and parish were all riddled with injuries or slowed by old age. it went from being a league where you had multiple hofers on the best team, to a league where you were lucky to have multiple all-stars. jordan's bulls beat the best the league could throw at them in the 90s, but you're right those weren't the george foreman or joe frazier teams of all time.

[hwliuLAP]

I love it when people always look back and compare how eras are different
thus it makes a player now not great nor being in the conversation of the greatest.

Just wait until a couple more years down the road
when we have more HOFers in this era
and people later will talk about how this era is better than the future.

Either we are simply just getting worse BY A LOT
or people over rate the past

[number23]

I love it when people always look back and compare how eras are different
thus it makes a player now not great nor being in the conversation of the greatest.

Just wait until a couple more years down the road
when we have more HOFers in this era
and people later will talk about how this era is better than the future.

Either we are simply just getting worse BY A LOT
or people over rate the past


You're not allowed to play defense now as aggresive as the past.It's a simple fact. Are you saying this is not true?

[dejordan]

I love it when people always look back and compare how eras are different
thus it makes a player now not great nor being in the conversation of the greatest.

Just wait until a couple more years down the road
when we have more HOFers in this era
and people later will talk about how this era is better than the future.

Either we are simply just getting worse BY A LOT
or people over rate the past
some of it is expansion and some of it is the sallary cap / free agency. it used to be much easier for a team to keep a bunch of hofers together. can you think of any team right now that has likely future hofers playing togther? phoenix maybe? miami definitely, but none except maybe wade (depending on how he recovers / if he has any post shaq success) are in their prime. possibly denver. it's just much tougher to be in a position to have two or more trancendent talents at the same time, esp both in their prime, because there are so many teams fighting over them and there's so many more financial restrictions while the salaries have skyrocketed. no way do magic, kareem and worthy all play for the same team right now. someone would be willing to pay worthy way too much. same with mchale or dj or even cooper or scott.

[samy568]

whatever dude, what I said was fact

crawl back under your rock

second paragraph very tight though:pimp:

No offense bro, but you sound like a retard. Your posts have been the worse ever with no thought or reasoning applied. I wonder if you are just ignorant or don't understand basketball.

Ignorance is a bliss and you are living proof.:pimp:

[GOBB]

First of all, try talking to me like you have graduated from high school. Secondly, Detroit was a great team, the Lakers were still a great team. And the 2 Utah teams were not excatly scrubs. 2 HOF's were playing great ball on that team. Not to mention denfense in the NBA during the Jordan era was MUCH more aggresive and challenging from the times Wilt played, and the times Kobe NOW plays in.

I talk to you like I'm your father you assclown.

You sit there and tell me the level of competition Ali faced/defeated was the same as the level of competition MJ faced/defeated and get back to me. Thats the point we're addressing. Everything else you're mentioning is irrelevant because I never once said Kobe was the greatest of all time. Again you imbecile I took out part of the posters argument and said I dont see that comparison he used as being legit. Because MJ didnt defeat great teams, dynasties. You can take that as a diss, a knock or whatever because quite frankly? I dont care. I am throwing out facts you're throwing out nonsense and biased opinions.

And i dont care for you to tell me who Kobe's Lakers defeated and how the teams MJ defeated were better. Look i saved you and me some time slapnuts. So dont counter/reply that way. And dont tell me how good the teams MJ defeated. I never said they werent. Understand what is being discussed here and wise up. Period!



this is true and really can't be disputed. but the counter is simply that his team wasn't loaded like magic's and bird's were either. also age / time is a factor. the bulls eventually swept the pistons who defeated the celts and lakers, but by the time chicago was good enough to compete for a title kareem and cooper were gone from la, dj and ainge were gone from boston, and lb, mchale, and parish were all riddled with injuries or slowed by old age. it went from being a league where you had multiple hofers on the best team, to a league where you were lucky to have multiple all-stars. jordan's bulls beat the best the league could throw at them in the 90s, but you're right those weren't the george foreman or joe frazier teams of all time.

Agreed and thats the point i was trying to make. When i saw the comparison I raised an eyebrow like the Rock.

[hwliuLAP]

You're not allowed to play defense now as aggresive as the past.It's a simple fact. Are you saying this is not true?

It is true,
but people strive in different eras for good reasons
I do not see how the best player in this era
and I'm not talking about just one year or two
but more than half a decade of being in the top 3
can not be in the conversation of the greatest
simply because he was in this era.

I can also say the exact same thing
MJ played in the era where Euro players sucked
and now USA doesn't dominate in the sport of basketball anymore
thus, NBA is much tougher now

[Kobe24]

Gobb couldn't last a day posting without using comparisons.

[chopchop20]

Oh yeah, he did say that MJ was the better basketball player -- because MJ played smarter on the court. So all of you MJ worshipers can simmer down...

Skip also agreed somewhat -- he said Wilt was the most complete offensive player ever. But then again, Russell was the better player.

[Sean77]

MJ started dominating/winning titles when the Celtics and Lakers dynasties fell thru. Lucky him.

Well, you have to consider Phil Jackson had something to do with it too.

[Younggrease]

Same thing they say about any explosive scorer...make him beat you with his jumper and contest every shot. Make it difficult for him to get good/easy looks. You want Kobe to take that MJ fadeawat like 2 steps inside the arc because its really a bad shot. You want him forcing shots with hands in his fae. Thats what you tell them. You act like there is no scouting report. :oldlol:

Often when a guy like Kobe gets hot and is on a roll...you focus on his teammates. You then adjust and let Kobe get his and stop his teammates because Kobe cant outscore an opponent by himself in 4 quarters of action.


i never said there was no scouting report but it must be frustrating as hell guarding him. He makes those jumpers like no one is guarding him, as if they arent there. Thats why he gets so many fouls on jumpshots because defender think the shot is going in and try to get away with fouls as their last resort.


he did it for 3 against the Mavs... i dont think he would but 3 quarters is pretty good.

[GOBB]

i never said there was no scouting report but it must be frustrating as hell guarding him. He makes those jumpers like no one is guarding him, as if they arent there. Thats why he gets so many fouls on jumpshots because defender think the shot is going in and try to get away with fouls as their last resort.


he did it for 3 against the Mavs... i dont think he would but 3 quarters is pretty good.

Yeah its hard to guard that dude.

[Sean77]

Ehhh, can you tell the difference between the "most complete"
and the "best/highest scorer" of all time?

The difference is.......
well, being the most complete means you can pretty much score
at any place on the floor with effeciency.
best/highest scorer means..... you can score a lot.

I hope this english lesson helped

.....:sleeping

.....:rolleyes:


I got A's in english, thank you very much. Can you tell the difference between "all-time" and "right now?"

But if you want to go with the most complete argument, let's go to the career stats, with the better stats in bold:

Kobe

24.2 ppg
4.5 apg
5.2 rbg(1.2 offensive rpg)
1.5 spg
0.5 bpg
45.3 FG%
33.9 3P%
83.7 FT%


Jordan

30.1 ppg
5.3 apg
6.20 rpg (1.6 offensive rpg)
2.35 spg
0.83 bpg
49.7 FG%
32.7 3P%
83.5 FT%

Edit: Here's the playoff stats:

Kobe

22.9 ppg
4.5 apg
3.8 rpg(1.1 offensive rpg)
1.3 spg
0.3 bpg
43.8 FG%
32.9 3P%
79.1 FT%


Jordan

33.4 ppg
5.7 apg
6.40 rpg(1.7 offensive rpg)
2.10 spg
0.88 bpg
48.7 FG%
33.2 3P%
82.8 FT %




Majority rules, especially in the playoffs. True, I highlighted defensive stats too, but that was just to show that, though Kobe is a tight baller, he has yet to reach Jordan's level, if he ever can.

I hope this math lesson helped.

[Laker Logic]

Memo to dumb people in this thread:

Complete: 1. a. Having all its parts or members; comprising the full number or amount; embracing all the requisite items, details, topics, etc.; entire, full.

Complete does not mean most prolific, or most efficient. Or most dominant.

If you're going to disagree with the premise, at least know what the hell you think it is you're disagreeing with.


Dumbasses.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Memo to dumb people in this thread:

Complete: 1. a. Having all its parts or members; comprising the full number or amount; embracing all the requisite items, details, topics, etc.; entire, full.

Complete does not mean most prolific, or most efficient. Or most dominant.

If you're going to disagree with the premise, at least know what the hell you think it is you're disagreeing with.


Dumbasses.

wow. name-calling? no need.

[SleepyCorpse]

im gonna agree, kobe has that signature elbow defenders in the face move, really sets him apart offensively from anyone in the history of the NBA

[Laker Logic]

wow. name-calling? no need.


Uh, need. 80% of the people disputing Anthony are disputing something he's not even arguing. That's dumb.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

im gonna agree, kobe has that signature elbow defenders in the face move, really sets him apart offensively from anyone in the history of the NBA

yup...it works fairly well against the Raja "Clothsline" Bell manuever or the Bruce "Ankle Breaker" Bowen manuever. Does not work so well against the beloved Dikembe "Elbow" Mutombo manuever.

[plupiter]

Complete: 1. a. Having all its parts or members; comprising the full number or amount; embracing all the requisite items, details, topics, etc.; entire, full.

Complete does not mean most prolific, or most efficient. Or most dominant.

That's right, and several people have said that in the thread. But I still think Anthony mispoke, he should have said most complete "scorer" and then there's a strong argument. Using the broader term "offensive player" brings in things like shot selection, rebounding, and passing--then I don't think you can persuasively argue Kobe is the most complete ever.

[chopchop20]

Uh, need. 80% of the people disputing Anthony are disputing something he's not even arguing. That's dumb.

Exactly -- he never said that Kobe was a better basketball player than MJ, just more skilled. So why are so many people bringing up stats?

[hwliuLAP]

.....:sleeping

.....:rolleyes:


I got A's in english, thank you very much. Can you tell the difference between "all-time" and "right now?"

But if you want to go with the most complete argument, let's go to the career stats, with the better stats in bold:

Kobe

24.2 ppg
4.5 apg
5.2 rbg(1.2 offensive rpg)
1.5 spg
0.5 bpg
45.3 FG%
33.9 3P%
83.7 FT%


Jordan

30.1 ppg
5.3 apg
6.20 rpg (1.6 offensive rpg)
2.35 spg
0.83 bpg
49.7 FG%
32.7 3P%
83.5 FT%

Edit: Here's the playoff stats:

Kobe

22.9 ppg
4.5 apg
3.8 rpg(1.1 offensive rpg)
1.3 spg
0.3 bpg
43.8 FG%
32.9 3P%
79.1 FT%


Jordan

33.4 ppg
5.7 apg
6.40 rpg(1.7 offensive rpg)
2.10 spg
0.88 bpg
48.7 FG%
33.2 3P%
82.8 FT %




Majority rules, especially in the playoffs. True, I highlighted defensive stats too, but that was just to show that, though Kobe is a tight baller, he has yet to reach Jordan's level, if he ever can.

I hope this math lesson helped.


ehhh........... this is the last time I responde to people like you
Complete means he is able to score at pretty much WHEREVER he gets the ball
I didn't say he was the BEST SCORER
but I said he should be compared as one of the MOST COMPLETE

if you have noticed....... you're the only one that brought up all the stats in this thread
and why? because that's not what we're talking about
we're talking about the skills of him being able to score wherever he wants
i.e. whenever he gets the ball, you better guard him.

and if you have read the article with the fact of them taking out his 1st 3 seasons
the stat difference between him and Jordan isn't that much anymore


but..... I'm talking to a stat guy who stares at box score instead of watching the game.
man this was a waste of my life.

[hotsizzle]

People that keep using FG% as gospel are ignorant. Sure it means something but there are more to consider

[Revelation]

How come the "most complete offensive player ever" has never shot above 46% from the field? Let me paint a picture for all you Kobe lovers. Michael Jordan in 1987-88 averaged 35ppg on 53.5% shooting percentage. Now let's assume Jordan forced up enough shots to get his shooting percentage down to Kobe's level (43-46%), how many points would he have averaged in the 87-88 year? 40+ppg? Now with this in mind remember that Jordan is not usually considered the greatest offensive player ever.

[dejordan]

That's right, and several people have said that in the thread. But I still think Anthony mispoke, he should have said most complete "scorer" and then there's a strong argument. Using the broader term "offensive player" brings in things like shot selection, rebounding, and passing--then I don't think you can persuasively argue Kobe is the most complete ever.
well put. that's what i was trying to say in my initial post in this monsterous thread. as a perimeter scorer, kobe is absolutely as complete as they come. as an offensive player in general i'm inclined to put guys with better combinations of scoring and passing in front of him.

[Laker Logic]

Exactly -- he never said that Kobe was a better basketball player than MJ, just more skilled. So why are so many people bringing up stats?

I think even saying "more skilled" is sending some people over the edge because you can understand skilled in a way that would include FG%, shot selection, scoring averages etc.

I think I know what you mean, as in "offense is made up of different skills, and Kobe has a greater number of those skills than other players."

But complete is closer to the idea of what I think Anthony's trying to say.

[Rab]

People that keep using FG% as gospel are ignorant. Sure it means something but there are more to consider
I wouldn't say ignorant, but I don't think that stat alone is enough to prove his case either way. However, I do think it's somewhat of a good measuring tool considering the weapon (Shaq) that Kobe had down low for all those years. I think efficiency is a pretty good tool to use when you going to talk most complete offensive player ever.

[hotsizzle]

How come the "most complete offensive player ever" has never shot above 46% from the field? Let me paint a picture for all you Kobe lovers. Michael Jordan 87-88 averaged 35ppg on 53.5% shooting percentage. Now let's assume Jordan forced up enough shots to get his shooting percentage down to Kobe's level (43-46%), how many points would he average? 40+ppg? Now with this in mind remember that Jordan is not usually considered the greatest offensive player ever.

Which year was more efficient Kobe scoring 35 on 45% or Jordan scoring 37 on 48%? People like you will say that Jordan by a large margin, not true, they're reaally close in reality.

[plupiter]

as an offensive player in general i'm inclined to put guys with better combinations of scoring and passing in front of him.

This is where your Bird suggestion needs to be revisited.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

How come the "most complete offensive player ever" has never shot above 46% from the field? Let me paint a picture for all you Kobe lovers. Michael Jordan in 1987-88 averaged 35ppg on 53.5% shooting percentage. Now let's assume Jordan forced up enough shots to get his shooting percentage down to Kobe's level (43-46%), how many points would he have averaged in the 87-88 year? 40+ppg? Now with this in mind remember that Jordan is not usually considered the greatest offensive player ever.

I think MJ is OFTEN considered the greatest offensive player ever.

[plupiter]

Which year was more efficient Kobe scoring 35 on 45% or Jordan scoring 37 on 48%? People like you will say that Jordan trumps it, not true, they're reaally close in reality.

Not to get bogged down in stats, but your using Jordan's least efficient year prior to his first retirement to compare with one of Kobe's more efficient years (I'm talking true shooting %), and Jordan's still coming out on top. Jordan had 8 years that were substantially more efficient than Bryant's top season, and two more years that were better than Bryant's ever done. Your not going to win an efficiency conversation in siding with Bryant against Jordan.

[Rab]

Not to get bogged down in stats, but your using Jordan's least efficient year prior to his first retirement to compare with one of Kobe's more efficient years (I'm talking true shooting %), and Jordan's still coming out on top. Jordan had 8 years that were substantially more efficient than Bryant's top season, and two more years that were better than Bryant's ever done. Your not going to win an efficiency conversation in siding with Bryant against Jordan.
Very good post.

[hotsizzle]

Not to get bogged down in stats, but your using Jordan's least efficient year prior to his first retirement to compare with one of Kobe's more efficient years (I'm talking true shooting %), and Jordan's still coming out on top. Jordan had 8 years that were substantially more efficient than Bryant's top season, and two more years that were better than Bryant's ever done. Your not going to win an efficiency conversation in siding with Bryant against Jordan.

THats not why Im using it. Im using it to prove a point that even though a higher shooting% on higher points may look like its better than what its compared to, it might not be. Theres more to consider than FG% like eFG, how many possessions you use up, etc. No way am I arguing Kobe is more effecient than MJ

Anyways, people are going offtopic here, they're using stats with this when thats not the case.

Look at Kobe play and tell me ONE thing thats weak on his offensive game...he has the total package and in terms of scoring, hes TEARING up the league. Doing wilt-like things as a guard in a more talented era. Last night he just set the record for most amount of points scored over a 3 gam span, do you know who he beat? Himself last year.

The dude has the total package...any weapon.

[gts]

The fact is with "ball in hand" 10 seconds on the shot clock Kobe can score from anywhere on the court... Jordan was better playing away from the ball... Kobe also has more variety in his game then MJ did...

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Let me try to put an end to this thread:

Kobe is currently having, arguably, his best year ever when you combine points, FG%, and assists... YET

It is only equal/less than that accomplished by MJ as his CAREER AVERAGE.

Thus, MJ > Kobe.

That this is even a debate should be enuf for EVERYONE to appreciate that we are presently watching greatness.

[plupiter]

THats not why Im using it. Im using it to prove a point that even though a higher shooting% on higher points may look like its better than what its compared to, it might not be. Theres more to consider than FG% like eFG, how many possessions you use up, etc.

Anyways, people are going offtopic here, they're using stats with this when thats not the case.

Look at Kobe play and tell me ONE thing thats weak on his offensive game...he has the total package and in terms of scoring, hes TEARING up the league. Doing wilt-like things as a guard in a more talented era. Last night he just set the record for most amount of points scored over a 3 gam span, do you know who he beat? Himself last year.

I don't think you understand how efficient Jordan was. Kobe's top efg ever was .491. Jordan had NINE seasons of .515 or greater. There's no argument, Kobe is not that efficient in the grand scheme of talking about great scorers.

As a scorer, Kobe has no weaknesses.

[Rab]

THats not why Im using it. Im using it to prove a point that even though a higher shooting% on higher points may look like its better than what its compared to, it might not be. Theres more to consider than FG% like eFG, how many possessions you use up, etc. No way am I arguing Kobe is more effecient than MJ

Anyways, people are going offtopic here, they're using stats with this when thats not the case.

Look at Kobe play and tell me ONE thing thats weak on his offensive game...he has the total package and in terms of scoring, hes TEARING up the league. Doing wilt-like things as a guard in a more talented era. Last night he just set the record for most amount of points scored over a 3 gam span, do you know who he beat? Himself last year.

The dude has the total package...any weapon.
He's a great player, and I do believe that he is up there in terms of greatest all-around offensive player of all time. But, if you look at scoring averages over the last 3 years of SG's in general, they're up from what they have been. I think the rules changes have something to do with Kobe going off the last 2 years especially. He was already the toughest to 2 guard to cover before the rule changes, but now there is nothing a defender can do to even try to stop him. You can't even hardly touch the guy. Add Kobe already skilled offensive game to a league that doesn't allow handchecking, bumping ect, and you're going to have these explosions.

[glidedrxlr22]

Here's how this can be solved. Ask any nba player from pre-Jordan, during-Jordan, and the post-Jordan era and I figure you get AT LEAST 75% in favor of Jordan. This is only comparing who was a more complete offensive player between the two....excluding other players.

[hotsizzle]

I don't think you understand how efficient Jordan was. Kobe's top efg ever was .491. Jordan had NINE seasons of .515 or greater. There's no argument, Kobe is not that efficient in the grand scheme of talking about great scorers.

As a scorer, Kobe has no weaknesses.

Im not comparing MJ to Kobe in terms of effeciency. I repeat, I AM NOT COMPARING MJ TO KOBE. All I was doing is taking two yrs with one of them apparently being better by a large margin and showing that FG% doesnt say all. I'm not comparing Kobe to Mike

That bolded sentence is whats being argued here. My point is that you cant use he never shot over 46% to dispute it...

[glidedrxlr22]

Some of you Laker fans are getting too excited over these past 3 games to make these absurd comparisons. You guys are probably the same ones that called the Lakers an elite team. You guys get sucked in too easily by the hype.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Let me try to put an end to this thread:

Kobe is currently having, arguably, his best year ever when you combine points, FG%, and assists... YET

It is only equal/less than that accomplished by MJ as his CAREER AVERAGE.

Thus, MJ > Kobe.

That this is even a debate should be enuf for EVERYONE to appreciate that we are presently watching greatness.

oh well, at least I tried.

[glidedrxlr22]

oh well, at least I tried.

Good assessment man.

[dejordan]

Im not comparing MJ to Kobe in terms of effeciency. I repeat, I AM NOT COMPARING MJ TO KOBE. All I was doing is taking two yrs with one of them apparently being better by a large margin and showing that FG% doesnt say all. I'm not comparing Kobe to Mike

That bolded sentence is whats being argued here. My point is that you cant use he never shot over 46% to dispute it...
i don't think anyone can dispute the complete scoring package that kobe presents. he can kill you from anywhere on the court. he has the full arsenal of perimeter weapons, as someone already stated.

[hotsizzle]

Some of you Laker fans are getting too excited over these past 3 games to make these absurd comparisons. You guys are probably the same ones that called the Lakers an elite team. You guys get sucked in too easily by the hype.

I dont know who you're talking about but its not absurd to consider Kobe one of the best scorers ever...is it?

[Rab]

As a scorer, Kobe has no weaknesses

As far as I'm concerned, neither did MJ, or Bird for that matter. The question is whether Kobe does any or some of those things better than he did.

[gts]

I dont know who you're talking about but its not absurd to consider Kobe one of the best scorers ever...is it? your arguing with a blazers fan...lol they don't understand greatness because they hav't witnessed it in eons.... thye last time they saw greatness they were giivng up a huge lead in the playoffs

[plupiter]

That this is even a debate should be enuf for EVERYONE to appreciate that we are presently watching greatness.

It's true, 60 point games are SO rare and he's done it two of the last three games. He will likely pass Jordan on 60 point game totals, and probably 50 pt games as well, if he keeps up at this rate. It's pinball scoring that we likely won't see again for years.

On the other hand, It's hard for me to get an accurate guage on what exactly he's doing with the way the game has changed the last couple years. Gilbert Arenas has scored 60, and Michael Redd has gotten into the high 50's a couple times. I can't help but feel that the ball is a bit "juiced".

I'm torn on it.

[hotsizzle]

As far as I'm concerned, neither did MJ, or Bird for that matter. The question is whether Kobe does any or some of those things better than he did.

3pt shooting, MJ had awesome handles but Kobe is better in that regard. MJ did better things than Kobe as well...but Kobe has more weapons in his game to use. From this you can automatically make a case for Kobe...make a case that is

[Vendetta]

Gilbert Arenas has scored 60. That's all that needs to be said.

Kobe's 81 would have been 90+ for MJ.

Doesn't take away from Kobe. Just saying... this is not 15 years ago. The game has changed.

[number23]

GOBB I understand its difficult to talk to other humans without calling them names, or throwing in some sort of insult. But the day when some punches you square in the teeth is approaching rapidly with your big mouth. I'll be waiting for your next ignorant comment.

[plupiter]

As far as I'm concerned, neither did MJ, or Bird for that matter. The question is whether Kobe does any or some of those things better than he did.

He does do things better. He's a better 3pt shooter than Jordan and a better slasher than Bird.

[Rab]

your arguing with a blazers fan...lol they don't understand greatness because they hav't witnessed it in eons.... thye last time they saw greatness they were giivng up a huge lead in the playoffs
Now that is retarded.

You chose to not defend your point by using anything relevent to the argument at hand, yet only present your rebutal by drudging up the past.

And you wonder why Lakers fans are not liked?

[glidedrxlr22]

For hotsizzle and gts:

He is one of the best scorers ever, but he is not the most complete offensive force. Just because he has 3 awesome, history making games...many homer fans are coming out of the wood work to say he's the best offensive force ever. That's the only thing I'm disputing.

As far as me being a Blazers' fan, it has nothing to do with it. I approach this argument as a basketball fan. This goes back to that lame argument that Laker fans make...."when you win x number of titles then come talk to us." That is so tired. OK Celtics fans, let them have it. You have more titles than them.

[Rab]

3pt shooting, MJ had awesome handles but Kobe is better in that regard. MJ did better things than Kobe as well...but Kobe has more weapons in his game to use. From this you can automatically make a case for Kobe...make a case that is
I agree that you can make a case, but I would still rank MJ and Bird ahead of Kobe taking in all the factors presented to me in this thread.

Not saying that out of hate for the guy.

[gts]

I agree that you can make a case, but I would still rank MJ and Bird ahead of Kobe taking in all the factors presented to me in this thread.

Not saying that out of hate for the guy.

ok what would you say bird does better than kobe and what MJ does better....

[hotsizzle]

He is one of the best scorers ever, but he is not the most complete offensive force. Just because he has 3 awesome, history making games...many homer fans are coming out of the wood work to say he's the best offensive force ever. That's the only thing I'm disputing.


Ok we can agree on that as long as you do consider him up there. Btw, its not just because 3 great games, it goes back to his other scoring outbursts: 81 points, 62 in 3..45+ in 4 consecutive games, 40+ in 9 straight games, 35 points a gm....these last three games just add to his resume.

[Rab]

go back and read my previous posts i already made my case and stated it... best of luck to you in your quest for being a moron your well on your way
Sure you have, but it ultimately comes down to, "your team sucks, and my team has won a ton".

And you call me a moron....

[hotsizzle]

I agree that you can make a case, but I would still rank MJ and Bird ahead of Kobe taking in all the factors presented to me in this thread.

Not saying that out of hate for the guy.

We can settle on that. However, Id take Kobe ahead of Bird without thinking twice. But anyways, the point is that Kobe can make a case for it which doesn't make GA's comments so outrageous.

[gts]

Sure you have, but it ultimately comes down to, "your team sucks, and my team has won a ton".

And you call me a moron....


Some of you Laker fans are getting too excited over these past 3 games to make these absurd comparisons. You guys are probably the same ones that called the Lakers an elite team. You guys get sucked in too easily by the hype.
that was exactly the same type of post i responded too, the poster made no comment to the argument just used words like "hype" and made no effort to take part in the argument... show me where his stament pertains to Greg Anthony's comments

[Top_Of_Tha_World]

Kobes my favourite player in the league. But he for damn sure aint better than MJ. He is the best right now and the best since MJ really retired. I dont care what anyone says deep down in your mind you know the truth. We all know hes never gonna be accepted. Just leave it at that. Iunno why so many people hate him for. Even Lebron says stuf like "I think it will help my legacy" after games so why is it so bad if Kobe says my teams **** so I mine as well get 60, make history, and win the game. You cant tell me his 60 isnt the main reason they won. AI doesnt shoot 50 %. So why is it ok for him to be called one of the greatest scorers and not Kobe. I guess people just really love to hate.

Oh yea P.S.
GET OFF HIS DICK!!!!!

[Rab]

We can settle on that. However, Id take Kobe ahead of Bird without thinking twice. But anyways, the point is that Kobe can make a case for it which doesn't make GA's comments so outrageous.
Well, honestly, the reason that I find it retarded is that it came from Anthony's mouth, who is known for overhyping and riding Kobe's/Lakers nads. I don't think it's outrageous, but I also don't agree with it.

[gts]

Well, honestly, the reason that I find it retarded is that it came from Anthony's mouth, who is known for overhyping and riding Kobe's/Lakers nads. I don't think it's outrageous, but I also don't agree with it. just for the record it was also said this morning by dan patrick, colin cowheard, and tubby smith

[chopchop20]

Well, honestly, the reason that I find it retarded is that it came from Anthony's mouth, who is known for overhyping and riding Kobe's/Lakers nads. I don't think it's outrageous, but I also don't agree with it.

Ummmm... I'm more inclined to respect Greg Anthony's opinion than yours considering the fact the he actually played in the NBA versus MJ and Kobe.

[Rab]

that was exactly the same type of post i responded too, the poster made no comment to the argument just used words like "hype" and made no effort to take part in the argument... show me where his stament pertains to Greg Anthony's comments
Geez, it's really not that big of a deal. But, at least he was referring to the topic at hand saying that some fans were getting too excited about this. In no way was history of the team being mentioned.

Really, it's not a big deal. I would rather focus on the topic at hand.

[Rab]

just for the record it was also said this morning by dan patrick, colin cowheard, and tubby smith
Great, but aren't some of these so-called "experts" the same people are saying that Nash may be the best PG of all time? I love Nash, but I certainly don't agree with it.

The media lives in the present, and they look for things to get excited about.

[Rab]

Ummmm... I'm more inclined to respect Greg Anthony's opinion than yours considering the fact the he actually played in the NBA versus MJ and Kobe.
Great, never said you had to respect my opinion. I just feel that Anthony tends to favor Kobe in a lot of arguments, and that it's pretty obvious that he is biased. Maybe he didn't like Jordan when they played. Who knows?

You don't have to respect my opinion seeing as how I never asked you to.

[gts]

Great, but aren't some of these so-called "experts" the same people are saying that Nash may be the best PG of all time? I love Nash, but I certainly don't agree with it.

The media lives in the present, and they look for things to get excited about. lol lets not go on a nash thread now... actually i know patrick says dirk is the mvp... i'm just pointing out that this is not one person in the media saying this, this is two respected analysts and a fairly respected head coach....

[chopchop20]

I just feel that Anthony tends to favor Kobe in a lot of arguments, and that it's pretty obvious that he is biased.

Greg Anthony is not the only person who has said this. So is everyone biased?

[glidedrxlr22]

Greg Anthony is not the only person who has said this. So is everyone biased?

Not everyone is biased, but Greg Anthony has a stalkerish man-crush on Kobe.

[Rab]

lol lets not go on a nash thread now... actually i know patrick says dirk is the mvp... i'm just pointing out that this is not one person in the media saying this, this is two respected analysts and a fairly respected head coach....
Not creating a Nash thread here, I'm merely using him as an example of how the media is stuck in the now.

[Dizzle-2k7]

kobe has no weakness on offense.

for those saying he does not pass well... well thats just cacaphony. kobe led the dynasty in assists and is a great passer and creator for his teammates.

kobe might be the most complete offensive player of all time. does being a complete offensive player guarantee chips and playoff victories? no, but that doesnt change the fact that kobe is a nuclear bomb out there while most players are just bb guns.

[Rab]

Greg Anthony is not the only person who has said this. So is everyone biased?
No, but Anthony is clear as day biased.

[aj242]

He will go down if not already the 2nd best two guard of ALL TIME. He isn't & will never be better the MJ. It's just that simple.

[Jailblazers7]

He is up there and he is defintely top 5 as far as a complete offensive threat but i would definitely say Jordan is was a more complete offensive threat. I think Jordan's turn around and jumper was better and i think he was more efficient due to better shot selection. I cant really say for sure about Oscar Robertson because i never really watched him play but from what ive heard and the little ive seen of him he could be ahead of Kobe.

[chopchop20]

He will go down if not already the 2nd best two guard of ALL TIME. He isn't & will never be better the MJ. It's just that simple.

You don't know that -- history is being written as we speak. Stay tuned...

[Kobe24]

At some point over the last few years, the NBA’s MVP award seems to have become about rewarding the best player on the most exciting team. The name of the award is the Most Valuable Player award, which would seem to intimate, at least to me, that it should go to the player who is the most valuable to his team. You can’t really assign numbers to this—unless you’re John "Chimpy" Hollinger—which makes it so much fun to argue about.

I understand Nash winning the award two seasons ago. Last season, not so much.

Throughout this season, I think Kobe’s value is becoming more and more obvious every day, with every pass that bounces off of Kwame Brown’s hands, with every game Lamar Odom sits on the bench battling an injury, with every brain fart from Andrew Bynum, with every jump shot that Smush Parker clangs off the rim.

This year, to me, the most valuable player in the NBA is Kobe Bryant.



That's a quote from Slam Magazine.

[Sean77]

ehhh........... this is the last time I responde to people like you
Complete means he is able to score at pretty much WHEREVER he gets the ball
I didn't say he was the BEST SCORER
but I said he should be compared as one of the MOST COMPLETE

if you have noticed....... you're the only one that brought up all the stats in this thread
and why? because that's not what we're talking about
we're talking about the skills of him being able to score wherever he wants
i.e. whenever he gets the ball, you better guard him.

and if you have read the article with the fact of them taking out his 1st 3 seasons
the stat difference between him and Jordan isn't that much anymore


but..... I'm talking to a stat guy who stares at box score instead of watching the game.
man this was a waste of my life.


Yadda, yadda, take out the first 3 seasons, take away the points average, take away the postseason points average that Kobe will never compare to, take away all the MVP and the Finals MVP trophy...then you caould say Kobe's a more complete scorer.

But if you actually read Greg Anthony's comment he said Kobe is the most complete scorer EVER. But they basing it on what he's doing now in today's league with today's rules, which greatly favor the offensive player. Jordan played in an era when both East and West had awesome teams, when scoring was much lower, and defenses were much harder for the one-on-one player to excel in.

One question: Where was this most complete talk earlier in the season when Kobe wasn't the No. 2 scorer? It's not like all of sudden he reached basketball Nirvana. People are so quick to put labels on people because of what they're doing now rather than comparing them to other greats. Please...

As I've said before, if you want to talk post-Jordan years, then most definitely Kobe is the man offensively, and I will agree he is the best since offensive player since Jordan, and I go by stats to support that claim as well. But if you want to talk all-time or best ever at any category, the best indication of that also is stats and postseason success, since Kobe can't go back and a prime Jordan or Bird or fill-in-the-blank.

[tmacman]

Agree with Greg.

[Loki]

3pt shooting, MJ had awesome handles but Kobe is better in that regard. MJ did better things than Kobe as well...but Kobe has more weapons in his game to use. From this you can automatically make a case for Kobe...make a case that is

Those aren't "weaknesses," though. Jordan was an awesome ballhandler for his era. His three-point shooting, while not spectacular by any means, wasn't something that an opponent could exploit as a legit "weakness" (like Shaq's FT shooting or Dirk's comparative lack of a power game for his size). Let's call it an "area of considerably lesser strength," because "weakness" implies that others could capitalize on it. Jordan's 10 scoring titles on record efficiency says that no one did. Hence, it can't truly be called a "weakness" imo.


He will likely pass Jordan on 60 point game totals, and probably 50 pt games as well,

60 point games, yes, most likely. 50 point games I'm inclined to disagree. He'd need something like 24 more, and not only does he have a fairly short effective window (~6 more seasons), but you'd think that at some point his team will improve and not be so dependent on his scoring outbursts. Or at least they'll have to if they hope to win any more championships. And if they don't, well, what good are all the scoring records in the world?


ok what would you say bird does better than kobe and what MJ does better....

Both Bird and Jordan had more consistent midrange shots (not a large edge by any means, but it's there) and better off-the-ball movement (large edges). Both were better decision-makers and better at getting good shots and reading defenses (large edge). Both were, imo, better post players (Jordan at the very least, but Bird was as well imo; I think Kobe's post game is the most overrated aspect of his game, though still good). Bird was a better 3-point shooter though he didn't attempt as many. Bird's footwork was comparable though slightly worse and Jordan's was better imo. Jordan was a better finisher than Kobe both over the top and in terms of circus shots due to his larger hands.


Maybe he didn't like Jordan when they played. Who knows?

He definitely didn't like Jordan after their tussle in the '92 playoffs, and after he realized that he couldn't do anything against Jordan when MJ was assigned to guard him in the '92/'93 playoffs.


You don't know that -- history is being written as we speak. Stay tuned...

LMAO :roll:

This is why people hate Kobe fans. Do you have any idea of what Kobe would have to do to be considered in the same breath as Jordan? No, I'm sure you don't. Here's what he'd need to do:


- at least 3 more championships as the unquestioned #1 player on his team

- at least 3 Finals MVP's

- at least 3 MVP's

- at least another 3-4 defensive first teams

- at least 5 more all-NBA first teams

- at least 5 more scoring titles (6 in total) or 30+ ppg seasons

- average ~30-31/6+/5+/48+% for the next 4-5 seasons

- lead the league in EFF at least 2 times and finish top 2 at least four times in total

- lead the league in PER at least 4-5 times and finish top 2 at least 8 times in total

- be considered unquestionably the best player in the league for a period of at least 4-5 years


Note that all of these criteria are actually less than what Jordan actually accomplished, in some cases substantially so. So this alone wouldn't make Kobe unequivocally better, but it would at least get him into the conversation.


In short: it isn't going to happen. And I don't want to hear about how he doesn't have to come close to matching all of Jordan's numbers/achievements, but rather can craft his own legacy -- baloney. These are incredibly similar players playing in the same offense for the same coach. Sure, if Kobe did something outrageous like win another 5 rings/Finals MVP's, then you can scale back what he'd need in some of the other categories, but since we all know he's not going to do that...

[PMshooter]

Look at Kobe play and tell me ONE thing thats weak on his offensive game...he has the total package and in terms of scoring, hes TEARING up the league. Doing wilt-like things as a guard in a more talented era. Last night he just set the record for most amount of points scored over a 3 gam span, do you know who he beat? Himself last year.

The dude has the total package...any weapon.

Let's assume Kobe and Jordan both have the same package, which I think they do. They were both completely offensive players. No holes in the offensive game. You then, logically, have to look at who was more effecient, prolific, successful, etc on the offensive end.

[chopchop20]

This is why people hate Kobe fans. Do you have any idea of what Kobe would have to do to be considered in the same breath as Jordan? No, I'm sure you don't. Here's what he'd need to do:

- at least 3 more championships as the unquestioned #1 player on his team

- at least 3 Finals MVP's

- at least 3 MVP's

- at least another 3-4 defensive first teams

- at least 5 more all-NBA first teams

- at least 5 more scoring titles (6 in total) or 30+ ppg seasons

- average ~30-31/6+/5+/48+% for the next 4-5 seasons

- lead the league in EFF at least 2 times and finish top 2 at least four times in total

- lead the league in PER at least 4-5 times and finish top 2 at least 8 times in total

- be considered unquestionably the best player in the league for a period of at least 4-5 years

Stick to the topic, "most complete offensive player"

[Loki]

Stick to the topic, "most complete offensive player"

Well then don't say things like: "You don't know that (Kobe won't end up as better than Jordan) -- history is being written as we speak. Stay tuned."


...if you don't want to hear why he won't and probably can't.

[Rocker09]

Is Kobe a more complete offensive player than MJ? Yes(3 pt shooting, midrange, slashing, passing, post game for a guard, footwork, speed, hangtime(MJ has all of this except 3 pt shooting)).

Is Kobe a better player than Jordan? No.

[LakersDynasty]

60 point games, yes, most likely. 50 point games I'm inclined to disagree. He'd need something like 24 more, and not only does he have a fairly short effective window (~6 more seasons),
Jordan has 31 50+ games, Kobe has 18 after tonight. He's had 7 this season alone with 13 games left + playoffs. I think he'll pass him.

[Loki]

Jordan has 31 50+ games, Kobe has 18 after tonight. He's had 7 this season alone with 13 games left + playoffs. I think he'll pass him.

Jordan had 38 games of 50+, playoff and regular season combined. Kobe's 18 is including his Suns 50-pointer from last season, iirc.

[hotsizzle]

Jordan had 38 games of 50+, playoff and regular season combined. Kobe's 18 is including his Suns 50-pointer from last season, iirc.

Why dont they count 50 pt playoff games. Today on tv, the said Jordan had 31 50 pt games or so:confusedshrug:

[LakersDynasty]

Jordan had 38 games of 50+, playoff and regular season combined. Kobe's 18 is including his Suns 50-pointer from last season, iirc.
Are you sure about that? When I was watching the game they showed a list of the players that scored 50+. Wilt had over a hundred, Jordan was at 31, and Elgin and Kobe were tied at 17. I guess they didn't include the playoff games. So Jordan is at 38, and Kobe should be at 19 including the Suns game, not 18. Still very reachable though considering he's had 14 of his 19 50 plus games in less than 2 seasons.

[Sneakerpro]

You can't be the most complete offensive player ever if you can't shoot over 50% from the field.

[Rocker09]

you can't be the most complete offensive player if you can't shoot treys...compare MJ's three pt shooting with kobe's....of course don't include the two seasons when the NBA shortened the three pt line...

[PMshooter]

BTW, got this off ESPN's write up of last night's game:


Chamberlain is also the only other player in the history of the league to score at least 50 points in each of four straight games. He had five streaks of at least four games, all in the 1961-62 season, when he averaged an NBA-record 50.4 points per game.

:bowdown:

[Loki]

Why dont they count 50 pt playoff games. Today on tv, the said Jordan had 31 50 pt games or so:confusedshrug:

Not sure why, but he has 39 total, 8 of which are in the postseason.

EDIT: I originally said 38, but it's 39. You can count them up by season here:

http://www.geocities.com/mjlove8586/love8586/love8586.htm

Just click on the years on the bottom of the page.


Still very reachable though considering he's had 14 of his 19 50 plus games in less than 2 seasons.

Again, though, don't expect him to maintain this pace when the team improves. Jordan had 13 in two seasons ('87-'88) and 19 in three seasons ('87-'89). Once he's on a championship level team, expect 1-3 games of 50+ each season.

[Silverbullit]

Kobe Bryants career averages are:

45.3 FG%
33.9 3P%
83.8 FT%

Nothing special, I think.

His all time rankings (regular season) are:
#15 points per game
#43 total points

There are active players ranked much higher...

i.e. Allen Iverson #3/#28
i.e. Shaquille O'Neal #9/#13

His all time rankings (postseason) are:
#26 points per game
#20 total points

The answer is clear: Kobe Bryant is by far not the most complete offensive player ever!

[chopchop20]

Again, many of you guys are missing the point. Greg Anthony's comments were in reference to Kobe skills -- which are not based on stats.

[deion2123]

its well known that Anthony hates MJ...cause MJ ripped his heart out so many times when he killed the Knicks and talked sh*t in the process

[number23]

He has amazing wrestling skills on the court.

[deion2123]

Ask Tayshaun Prince and detroit. :D
Tayshaun and the Pistons own Kobe so badly it isnt funny

[haterofhaters]

Wow, big surprise. He would sniff Kobe sweaty jock strap if he could.And, no, Kobe is not the most complete offensive player ever.

After he wrestled it away from Stuart Scott.

[deion2123]

MJ started dominating/winning titles when the Celtics and Lakers dynasties fell thru. Lucky him.
or how about he started winning when he got help....Pippen wasnt on the Bulls and playing well until the 90s..the Celtics and Lakers had 4 HOFs each..how can MJ beat that by himself ???

[Rocker09]

Some people here still don't get it. Being the most complete offensive player doesn't mean he's the highest scorer in the NBA. It simply means that Kobe has more offensive weapons than MJ. I'll make it short for you guys. Kobe can shoot treys, MJ can't. MJ's careeer three pt % is only 29% if we're gonna remove the seasons when the NBA made the three pt line closer(they made it further again).

[Loki]

Some people here still don't get it. Being the most complete offensive player doesn't mean he's the highest scorer in the NBA. It simply means that Kobe has more offensive weapons than MJ. I'll make it short for you guys. Kobe can shoot treys, MJ can't. MJ's careeer three pt % is only 29% if we're gonna remove the seasons when the NBA made the three pt line closer(they made it further again).

Note that I am not suggesting that Jordan is anywhere near as good a 3-point shooter as Kobe is. He isn't. However, I think Jordan's 3-point history is interesting...and odd. Let's take a look:


Jordan's jumper from 16-18 feet and in was money from his rookie year. However, he clearly was tragic from deep. The three just wasn't as important a part of the game in general back then as it is now, either (check Bird's 3FGA for evidence). As the years progressed, he extended his effective range from 17 to about 21 feet by 1989. He generally attempted less than one 3-point FGA per game until the 1989-90 season, when he jumped up to 3.0 attempts per game. That season -- his first shooting a significant number of threes -- he hit on 37.6% of them, a jump of 10% over the previous season, and nearly 25% better than two years prior.


Next season, his attempts dropped to one-third of what they were the previous season (1.1 3FGA/gm), and his percentage slipped to 31.2%. The year after that, 1992, it slipped further to 27% on a similar # of attempts (1.3 3FGA/gm). He raised this to 38.6% in the '92 playoffs on 2.0 attempts per game. Then, in 1993, he again attempted a significant (for him) number of three-point shots, with 2.9 attempts per game, over twice the previous season's number. He connected on 35.2% of his threes that season. Moreover, in the playoffs that year, he attempted 3.9 threes per game, connecting on an excellent 38.9% of them.

His percentages in '96 and '97 were better, but the line was moved in those years. Doesn't this pattern strike anyone as odd? Could it be that he was just a rhythm 3-point shooter who, as a conscious choice, chose to forgo the three except when he felt it was better for his game? Who knows -- maybe if he attempted 3.5+ threes per game in every season after 1990 he would have had more respectable percentages each year? You have to admit that the pattern is odd...

[Rocker09]

^That's the thing, there's no way to know that. The fact remains that kobe has a better 3 pt fg % than MJ. As I said before, Kobe is a more complete offensive player than MJ but this doesn't mean that he is a better player.

[haterofhaters]

^That's the thing, there's no way to know that. The fact remains that kobe has a better 3 pt fg % than MJ. As I said before, Kobe is a more complete offensive player than MJ but this doesn't mean that he is a better player.
I can agree simply because of the fact that Kobe shoots a higher 3pt%.

[Loki]

^That's the thing, there's no way to know that. The fact remains that kobe has a better 3 pt fg % than MJ. As I said before, Kobe is a more complete offensive player than MJ but this doesn't mean that he is a better player.

As I said, I didn't post that to suggest that Jordan was or even could have been as good a three-point shooter as Kobe is. I just thought it was a curious pattern.

[johndeeregreen]

GA also said the Lakers would be in the Western Conference Finals last year.

[KWALI]

How does anyone think that KB24 is a better dribbler or ball handler than MJ?

He's a better deep shooter and is consequently a more complete scorer than MJ but so is a guy like Ray Allen.

Like has already been said Early MJ the guy who walked on air that guy could do anything with the ball. He was much more adept b4 giving up his dribble ay faking and playing tricks with the ball and was much quicker than KB8 at any dribble move you can think of. KB24's main dribble move would have been a carry anyway.

[haterofhaters]

How does anyone think that KB24 is a better dribbler or ball handler than MJ?

He's a better deep shooter and is consequently a more complete scorer than MJ but so is a guy like Ray Allen.

Like has already been said Early MJ the guy who walked on air that guy could do anything with the ball. He was much more adept b4 giving up his dribble ay faking and playing tricks with the ball and was much quicker than KB8 at any dribble move you can think of. KB24's main dribble move would have been a carry anyway.

Nobody does really. Even laker/Kobe fans agree that there's a key difference between what Kobe does and what MJ did. That difference is that MJ could toy with the D, penetrate, crossover and lose them more often than not until he became 30+, lost his great athleticism and had to depend more on his jumper. Whereas Kobe's shots are usually contested and doesn't take it into the lane as often as Jordan did. So, Jordan and Kobe are unstoppable in different ways. MJ was more efficient but Kobe is more complete because he can take it to the basket, or take the outside 3.

[Rocker09]

Nobody does really. Even laker/Kobe fans agree that there's a key difference between what Kobe does and what MJ did. That difference is that MJ could toy with the D, penetrate, crossover and lose them more often than not until he became 30+, lost his great athleticism and had to depend more on his jumper. Whereas Kobe's shots are usually contested and doesn't take it into the lane as often as Jordan did. So, Jordan and Kobe are unstoppable in different ways. MJ was more efficient but Kobe is more complete because he can take it to the basket, or take the outside 3.

Exactly! Plus Kobe and MJ's dribbling and midrange game are not that far anyway. This is why most of us are looking at the 3 pt shooting as basis for who the more complete offensive player is. At the end of the day, MJ is still better than Kobe but Kobe is a more complete offensive player.

:rockon:

[hotsizzle]

Kobe is a better ball handler than Jordan. MJ might have looked better getting where he wants because he was quicker and more athletic but in terms of pure handles, Kobe is a better, more fluid dribbler. They're close though..

[Carbine]

The one thing that seperates Jordan from Kobe is the size of hands. What I mean by that is Jordan could ballfake with one hand and dangle it wherever he wanted quite easily. Kobe cannot do that because he doesn't have the hand size of Jordan'.

Hands are some of the most underrated things when evaluating a player. Strong hands, quick hands, huge hands, etc could become a huge advatage for you both of the offensive and defenside side of the ball.

[Loki]

The one thing that seperates Jordan from Kobe is the size of hands. What I mean by that is Jordan could ballfake with one hand and dangle it wherever he wanted quite easily. Kobe cannot do that because he doesn't have the hand size of Jordan'.

Hands are some of the most underrated things when evaluating a player. Strong hands, quick hands, huge hands, etc could become a huge advatage for you both of the offensive and defenside side of the ball.

Good point. Not only were Jordan's hands much larger (which paradoxically led to both better ball control at times and the occasional sloppy handle, especially during the second three-peat when he didn't handle the ball nearly as much), but he had far quicker hands/reflexes than Kobe does. It's actually a fairly large difference between them, both defensively and offensively. I'd post clips illustrating what I'm talking about, but I don't have time.

[Jailblazers7]

Good point. Not only were Jordan's hands much larger (which paradoxically led to both better ball control at times and the occasional sloppy handle, especially during the second three-peat when he didn't handle the ball nearly as much), but he had far quicker hands/reflexes than Kobe does. It's actually a fairly large difference between them, both defensively and offensively. I'd post clips illustrating what I'm talking about, but I don't have time.

I especially noticed Jordan's quicker hands on the defensive end compared to Kobe's. Jordan was always active in the defense getting in passing lanes and poking the ball away and stripping the man he was gaurding. Kobe is a good defender dont get me wrong here but he had no where near the impact Jordan did on that end.

[bleedinpurple]

this thread is STILL going....comparing Kobe to MJ in many different ways.
I guess Kobe DOES deserve to be compared to the GOAT.

[Loki]

this thread is STILL going....comparing Kobe to MJ in many different ways.
I guess Kobe DOES deserve to be compared to the GOAT.

No, he doesn't. But you know, when people continue to make ridiculous claims, they deserve to be spoken to. Unless you think that if people make outlandish remarks they should just be allowed to do so with no response.

How do you think that'd fly with Kobe fans? Do you think they wouldn't speak to comments like "Paul Pierce is better than Kobe" if someone were foolish enough to make them? Fact is, the gap between Kobe and Jordan in terms of on-the-court impact is fairly sizeable -- enough to be noticed by most people who have seen both in their primes (Kobe '05-present and Jordan '89-'93). People responding to outrageous comments by Kobe fans doesn't make the comparison more any more apt. It just means that certain people have big mouths and will keep repeating the same thing regardless of its veracity. Wasn't it Goebbels who said something about repetition being the most important part of propaganda? :D

[XxNeXuSxX]

this thread is STILL going....comparing Kobe to MJ in many different ways.
I guess Kobe DOES deserve to be compared to the GOAT.
No he doesn't you f*cking **** **** **** ***** moron. :)

[bleedinpurple]

No, he doesn't. But you know, when people continue to make ridiculous claims, they deserve to be spoken to. Unless you think that if people make outlandish remarks they should just be allowed to do so with no response.

How do you think that'd fly with Kobe fans? Do you think they wouldn't speak to comments like "Paul Pierce is better than Kobe" if someone were foolish enough to make them? Fact is, the gap between Kobe and Jordan in terms of on-the-court impact is fairly sizeable -- enough to be noticed by most people who have seen both in their primes (Kobe '05-present and Jordan '89-'93). People responding to outrageous comments by Kobe fans doesn't make the comparison more any more apt. It just means that certain people have big mouths and will keep repeating the same thing regardless of its veracity. Wasn't it Goebbels who said something about repetition being the most important part of propaganda? :D

Good morning LOKI.
I agree completely that it's open for debate. NO WAY Kobe is as good as MJ. NO WAY. But I'm not seeing much in the way of "ridiculous claims"; maybe a couple silly kids might say Kobe > MJ, but that is not what I'm seeing here.

I'm seeing a) an on-going comparison to their respective offensive skill-sets (that's not ridiculous) and,
b) even mentioning their defensive abilities (although that's not what this thread was supposed to be about).

For the most part, this has been a rational discourse on comparisons.
The media is certainly comparing. Here on ISH the comparison continues.
By definition, the comparison is worthy.

[bleedinpurple]

No he doesn't you f*cking **** **** **** ***** moron. :)

and good morning to you. please get your 1st cup of coffee before posting. :rolleyes:

ps. if he is not worthy of comparison, then why is the media making the comparison? why has this been an on-going rational discourse here on ISH?
(btw, I'm NOT saying he is better than MJ, in fact I will say it's not even close, but the comparison IS occuring).

[elinss86]

why cant people just accept that, hes is the best offensive player in nba TODAY, and it is debatable whether mj or kobe is better offensively and that in itself is pretty amazing?

[Brunch@Five]

It just means that certain people have big mouths and will keep repeating the same thing regardless of its veracity. Wasn't it Goebbels who said something about repetition being the most important part of propaganda?

That applies to Kobe grou.pies as much as to Kobe Ha.ters.

[ALlArOuNDPIaya]

why cant people just accept that, hes is the best offensive player in nba TODAY, and it is debatable whether mj or kobe is better offensively and that in itself is pretty amazing?
1.He isn't the best offensive player today, Duncan is. (Not scorer, offensive player)

2. It's not debatable, it's only debatable with today's uneducated morons. Once we leave this era, Kobe would be laughed at with comparison's to Jordan. He will probably be considered a rich Schremph.

[bleedinpurple]

why cant people just accept that, hes is the best offensive player in nba TODAY, and it is debatable whether mj or kobe is better offensively and that in itself is pretty amazing?

exactly. their mere fact that they are being genuinely compared, not just here on ISH (which means squat), but in the media and by NBA players/coaches, is very amazing.

[KobeMVP]

Wow, big surprise. He would sniff Kobe sweaty jock strap if he could.

And, no, Kobe is not the most complete offensive player ever.


I agree, but Kobe is the best offensive player in the league right now.

For all you Kobe ******, let us know who can beat Kobe's consective scoring records right now.

Kobe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gibo, wade...

[bleedinpurple]

I'm channeling ________________[insert h@ter here],
"Kobe is way overrated because he hasn't won it all as the leader of his team"

to which those who appreciate his effort reply,
"OK, then so is Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, KG, etc etc)

and the love/hate circle continues.

[Jailblazers7]

I agree, but Kobe is the best offensive player in the league right now.

For all you Kobe ******, let us know who can beat Kobe's consective scoring records right now.

Kobe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gibo, wade...

I dont see anyone saying he isnt the most complete in the game except somebody said Tim Duncan in one thread but they are just retarded.

[KobeMVP]

QUOTE=Jailblazers7]I dont see anyone saying he isnt the most complete in the game except somebody said Tim Duncan in one thread but they are just retarded.[/QUOTE]

Here is the quote from Rab:

Originally Posted by Rab
Wow, big surprise. He would sniff Kobe sweaty jock strap if he could.

And, no, Kobe is not the most complete offensive player ever.

First page of the thread / reply #4

[Jailblazers7]

QUOTE=Jailblazers7]I dont see anyone saying he isnt the most complete in the game except somebody said Tim Duncan in one thread but they are just retarded.

Here is the quote from Rab:

Originally Posted by Rab
Wow, big surprise. He would sniff Kobe sweaty jock strap if he could.

And, no, Kobe is not the most complete offensive player ever.

First page of the thread / reply #4

He never said he wasnt the most complete in the game he said he wasnt the most complete ever.

[JohnnyWall]

His scoring ability is unrivaled, especially when he's on a hot streak.

[TheFan]

Keep in mind he said most complete, not the best, name another player that can do as much as Kobe on the offensive side...

[G-Funk]

IMO Kobe is the most complete

[flipogb]

this is the only undeniable fact about him.

hey may not even be the best offensive player or the best player overall

but he can do literally everything on the offensive end

[gtfomyface]

he's indeed the most complete, his offensive game is simply beautiful as well as the variety of moves he has. he may not be the best but he's the most complete

[fos]

I remember when he said Melo was better than Dirk :sleeping

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Keep in mind he said most complete, not the best, name another player that can do as much as Kobe on the offensive side...

Nobody

Kobe = Most versatile, most complete offensive arsenal of moves ever. There's nothing he can't do and in his prime he could get hot and hit 12 threes in a game including 9 in a row. God mode. 81 point game. Always adding new moves and adjusting his game to stay on top. Virtually unlimited range. Durable, warrior, student of the game, Champion.

It pains me to say this but...

Jordan is still better. It's close, but Jordan is still number one. He didn't have to work so hard to create space even when he got older. Dudes just couldn't hang with him and he didn't force as many bad shots. He was as close to a perfect player as I've ever seen.

Different era, different rules. Kobe arguable plays against better more athletic defenders now. Kobe might benefit from rule changes especially in the last several years. You never know what would happen if these two were in their prime at the same time. I'm just so thankfull that I was able to watch both of these guys at the top of their games.