MVP voting: "the man" and "the sidekicks"

[Roundball_Rock]

I looked up the results for the 60's Celtics due to one poster saying Russell often was not the best player on the team :lol and figured I would look it up for certain other teams. This provides one measure of assessing the gap between "the man" and "the sidekick" and also provides a measure of comparing "sidekicks" to others by seeing how they were measured in their own era relative to their peers.

60's Celtics

Here is the MVP voting for Russell, Cousy, and Havelick in the Russell years:

1957: Cousy 1st, Russell 7th
1958: Russell 1st, Cousy 6th
1959: Russell 2nd Cousy 4th
1960: Russell 2nd, Cousy 4th
1961: Russell 1st, Cousy N/A
1962: Russell 1st, 8th
1963: Russell 1st, Cousy 8th (Cousy's final season), Havelick 10th
1964: Russell 3rd, Havelick N/A
1965: Russell 1st, Havelick N/A
1966: Russell 4th, Havelick N/A
1967: Russell 3rd, Havelick N/A
1968: N/A for both
1969: Russell 4th, Havelick N/A (Russell's last season)

[B]80

[Jacks3]

*Gasol has actually never received a MVP vote in his career.
Dominant big doe. :bowdown:

[Dragic4Life]

*Kobe gradually closed the gap and then eclipsed Shaq in LA.
No he did not. Kobe didn't win another ring til 2009 ffs.:facepalm

[pegasus]

What Kobe did with Gasol in the Western Conference was truly amazing:applause:

[livinglegend]

Great thread.
This information makes it clear that Russell was the best player in those Celtics teams.


Did Jordan really get votes for MVP while playing only 17 games (1995)?:facepalm

[SMoKe0uT]

No he did not. Kobe didn't win another ring til 2009 ffs.:facepalm

This fgt mad as hell :lol

[SMoKe0uT]

:applause:
What Kobe did with Gasol in the Western Conference was truly amazing:applause:

[played0ut]

I like this different perspective on how to view/compare the impacts of star players/sidekicks.



Would've been great if the MVP's were still voted on by players and coaches.

[Dragic4Life]

This fgt mad as hell :lol
Ain't mad. My man Lebron alrdy surpassed Kobe.

[dreamwarrior]

Kobe the only GOAT to win a ring with an unranked sidekick :bowdown:

[Dragic4Life]

Kobe the only GOAT to win rings as an unranked sidekick :bowdown:
Fixed.

[Roundball_Rock]

I like this different perspective on how to view/compare the impacts of star players/sidekicks.

Thanks. I think the two primary benefits are it shows the gap between the two and shows how valuable "the sidekick" was viewed during that year. For example, a lot of ISH posters think Wade>>>Pippen but Pippen actually was more of a factor in MVP voting than wade during the years listed (even if you throw out 94', which is Pippen's version of Wade's 09'--both placed 3rd). This is a good measure to compare "sidekicks" with each other. For example, Gasol, Bosh, Worthy, at least by this metric, are not close to the level of Pippen, Wade and Kobe by 2002 was a top 5 MVP candidate--right on Shaq's gearbox.

Should "sidekicks" who finish top 5 in MVP voting be viewed the same as others?

Note: Pippen actually received a first place vote in 1992. :rockon:

[magnax1]

Pippen might've gotten more votes than Wade, but Wade was arguably (meaning probaly) the best player on the 11 team, something Pippen can never say of a team Jordan played with him on.

[SMoKe0uT]

Ain't mad. My man Lebron alrdy surpassed Kobe.


fgt salty as fvck :lol

[magnax1]

Also worth noting that media votes on MVP and considering some of the winners 1st place is of questionable value let alone 3rd 4th or 5th.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen might've gotten more votes than Wade, but Wade was arguably (meaning probaly) the best player on the 11 team, something Pippen can never say of a team Jordan played with him on.

Wade placed 7th in MVP voting in 11'. Pippen was 5th in 96'. Pippen also was #2 in all-NBA voting in 96', #1 in all-Defensive voting, #2 in DPOY voting (what a "sidekick" :bowdown: ). Wade was second team all-NBA--implying that he was the third best guard in 11' while Pippen was the top forward over prime Malone and over Grant Hill, Shawn Kemp and Charles Barkley.

Pippen clearly was better relative to the league in 96' than Wade in 11'. Your argument rests on the notion that LeBron in 11' was weaker relative to Wade/the league than MJ was in 96'.

[Dragic4Life]

fgt salty as fvck :lol
Your avy, title and posts all reek of insecurity. :oldlol:

Lebron > Kobe deal with it alrdy gees...

[SMoKe0uT]

Your avy, title and posts all reek of insecurity. :oldlol:

Lebron > Kobe deal with it alrdy gees...

im secure as hell and u still mad :lol :lol :lol

2/5

[magnax1]

Wade placed 7th in MVP voting in 11'. Pippen was 5th in 96'. Pippen also was #2 in all-NBA voting in 96', #1 in all-Defensive voting, #2 in DPOY voting (what a "sidekick" :bowdown: ). Wade was second team all-NBA--implying that he was the third best guard in 11' while Pippen was the top forward over prime Malone and over Grant Hill, Shawn Kemp and Charles Barkley.

Pippen clearly was better relative to the league in 96' than Wade in 11'. Your argument rests on the notion that LeBron in 11' was weaker relative to Wade/the league than MJ was in 96'.
No, it rests on the fact that only idiots don't realize Wade was at worst the third worst player in the league that year.

[Roundball_Rock]

No, it rests on the fact that only idiots don't realize Wade was at worst the third worst player in the league that year.

All-NBA voters are idiots? They had him as the third best guard and second best SG.

Where does a player with this resume rank relative to the league:

*5th in MVP voting
*#2 in all-NBA voting
*#1 in all-Defensive voting
*#2 in DPOY voting

That is a more impressive list of achievements than 11' Wade. The guy was voted over prime Karl Malone--the same Malone who would be MVP the following year.

[kennethgriffin]

gasol was the real mvp though

[magnax1]

All-NBA voters are idiots? They had him as the third best guard and second best SG.

Where does a player with this resume rank relative to the league:

*5th in MVP voting
*#2 in all-NBA voting
*#1 in all-Defensive voting
*#2 in DPOY voting

That is a more impressive list of achievements than 11' Wade. The guy was voted over prime Karl Malone--the same Malone who would be MVP the following year.
And guess what? Wade was better than Malone too. By quite a bit.
And yeah, all NBA voters are the media, who voted Rose MVP that year.

[Roundball_Rock]

Did Jordan really get votes for MVP while playing only 17 games (1995)?:facepalm

Sorry, I missed this edit. Yes he received 12 votes, right behind Gary Payton and Penny Hardaway and right ahead of Dennis Rodman and Jason Kidd. 27/7/5 on 41% for 17 games. That compared to Pippen's 21/8/5 on 48% and dominant defense (led the Bulls to the #2 defense--arguably the GOAT defensive season by a perimeter player).


And guess what? Wade was better than Malone too. By quite a bit.
And yeah, all NBA voters are the media, who voted Rose MVP that year.

Opinions. You are entitled to them. These are a cross section of what people thought at the time, though. Frankly, I don't see how a player who was #2 in all-NBA, #1 in all-D, #5 in MVP voting and #2 in DPOY was not top 3 but all this is subjective.

My list for 1996:

1) Jordan
2) D. Robinson
3) Pippen
4) K. Malone
5) Hakeem
6) Penny

My list for 2011:

1) LeBron
2) Howard
3) Dirk
4) Kobe
5) Wade
6) Rose

[magnax1]

If you mean people are allowed to be idiots, alright, but it's not subjective anymore than Lebron being the best player is, or Kareem, or Wilt Russell being top 10. In other words, you'd have to be one of the aforementioned idiots to not realize wade was at worst the 3rd best player in the league. Pippen was great, but he's no wade.

[Roundball_Rock]

In other words, you'd have to be one of the aforementioned idiots to not realize wade was at worst the 3rd best player in the league. Pippen was great, but he's no wade.

At the time the consensus was LeBron was the best player and Howard was the most common choice for #2. That was Howard's best season. Dirk, Kobe, Wade were in a group from 3rd to 5th. Again, this was the view at the time. I know there is an effort by some to revise history and say Wade>LeBron that year but no one held that view in 2011. MVP, all-NBA voting reflect that.

People seem to be conflating 2010 with 2011. In 2010 Wade was a top 3 player; in 2011 Howard improved and surpassed him for that year. Wade was as high as 3rd but could have been argued for 5th depending on how you rated Kobe and Dirk versus him.

It is interesting, it is now being argued that Wade>LeBron in 2011 but when Wade was at his peak in 2009 almost no one had Wade over LeBron and most people had Kobe over Wade for #2.

Wade was a consensus top 3 player in 2009 and 2010--but the general view was that he was #3 in both cases. He was not really in the discussion for best player. At best some had him over Kobe for #2.

[DonDadda59]

At the time the consensus was LeBron was the best player and Howard was the most common choice for #2. That was Howard's best season. Dirk, Kobe, Wade were in a group from 3rd to 5th. Again, this was the view at the time. I know there is an effort by some to revise history and say Wade>LeBron that year but no one held that view in 2011. MVP, all-NBA voting reflect that.

Awards voting can be incredibly flawed (see: All D, Kobe). It's not exactly scientific.

Even if you believe Bron was clearly ahead of Whistle in '11, he was still much closer to LeQuit's level than Pip was to MJ's. Wade outplayed Bron in the playoffs that year, most noticeably in the finals where it can be argued Bron wetting the bed cost Wade his second finals MVP.


People seem to be conflating 2010 with 2011. In 2010 Wade was a top 3 player; in 2011 Howard improved and surpassed him for that year. Wade was as high as 3rd but could have been argued for 5th depending on how you rated Kobe and Dirk versus him.

It is interesting, it is now being argued that Wade>LeBron in 2011 but when Wade was at his peak in 2009 almost no one had Wade over LeBron and most people had Kobe over Wade for #2.


Wade was a consensus top 3 player in 2009 and 2010--but the general view was that he was #3 in both cases. He was not really in the discussion for best player. At best some had him over Kobe for #2.

A good number of people had Wade as the best player in the game. I remember The general consensus here (not counting hardcore Bean stans) was that the 2 best players in the world from the '08 Olympics until the Decision were Bron and Wade. Some had Kobe #2-#3.

[magnax1]

I know there is an effort by some to revise history and say Wade>LeBron that year but no one held that view in 2011.
No, actually a lot of people did. He outplayed him in the playoffs and could've won the finals if he didn't get hurt, and almost certainly would've if not for Lebron's destructive choke.
No one thought Dirk was better except for Mav fans, and even most of them admitted that Wade was better since he far outplayed him in the finals.
No one thought Kobe was better. Well Kobe stans. That was his worst year since like 05.

[knicksman]

this just shows that bran makes his teammates worse while jordan made a iguodala type player overrated.

[Roundball_Rock]

A good number of people had Wade as the best player in the game. I remember The general consensus here (not counting hardcore Bean stans) was that the 2 best players in the world from the '08 Olympics until the Decision were Bron and Wade. Some had Kobe #2-#3.

2009-10 GM Survey Results

Who will win the 2009-10 MVP?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland 69.0%
2. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 17.2%
3. Dwight Howard, Orlando 6.9%

Also receiving votes:

Tim Duncan, San Antonio; Dwyane Wade, Miami
- Last year: LeBron James 55.6%

If you were starting a franchise today and could sign any player in the NBA, who would it be?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland 78.6%
2. Dwight Howard, Orlando 14.3%
3. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 7.1%
- Last year: LeBron James 66.7%

Who is the best shooting guard in the NBA?

1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 89.7%
Also receiving votes:
Ray Allen, Boston; Brandon Roy, Portland; Dwyane Wade, Miami
- Last year: Kobe Bryant 92.6%

http://www.nba.com/news/features/gmsurvey.players/

2011-12 NBA.com GM Survey Results (so largely based on 2011 performances)

Who will win the 2011-12 MVP?
1. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 55.6%
2. LeBron James, Miami -- 44.4%

If you were starting a franchise and could sign any player, who would it be?

T1. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 37.0%
T1. LeBron James, Miami -- 37.0%
3. Derrick Rose, Chicago -- 14.8%
4. Dwight Howard, Orlando -- 7.4%
5. Dwyane Wade, Miami -- 3.7%


Who is the best shooting guard in the NBA?
1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers -- 55.6%
2. Dwyane Wade, Miami -- 40.7%
3. Ray Allen, Boston -- 3.7%
Last year: Kobe Bryant -- 85.7%

http://www.nba.com/news/features/2012-gm-survey/

Again, these are not dispositive but provide a good overview of what experts thought at the time, both after Wade's peak season in 2009 and subsequent to the 2011 season.

Oh, for you Rose haters:

Who is the best point guard in the NBA?
1. Derrick Rose, Chicago -- 59.3%
2. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 37.0%
3. Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City -- 3.7%
Last year: Deron Williams -- 50.0%

[magnax1]

So, after saying I'm just posting opinions, you just post more opinions?

[Roundball_Rock]

Wade outplayed LeBron in one series in four years and we will never hear the end of it. :roll:

[AnaheimLakers24]

fgt salty as fvck :lol
:roll:

[magnax1]

Ones series? More like one series that lost the Heat a championship, and the whole playoffs too. Youll never here the end of it because Lebron in the 2010 and 11 playoffs was pathetic.

[Roundball_Rock]

Ones series? More like one series that lost the Heat a championship, and the whole playoffs too.

True, but Wade in the ECF that year was worse than LeBron in the Finals.

Wade in the ECF: 19/6/2 on 40.5%
LeBron in the Finals: 18/7/7 on 48%

LeBron was poor relative to his standards but people act as if he was a scrub in the series. His line resembles or exceeds some FMVP's:

14' Leonard 18/6/2
08' Pierce 22/4.5/6
82' Magic 16/11/8
88' Worthy 22/7/4

People act as if he had 8/3/2 on 28%. :lol Every player can have a series here and there that can be nit-picked over a career; LeBron just had poor timing to have one of those in the Finals.

[DonDadda59]

Wade outplayed LeBron in one series in four years and we will never hear the end of it. :roll:

'11 2nd Round Vs Boston (The Season After The Cs forced Bron to flee Cleveland)

Wade: 30.2 PPG/ 6.8 RPG/ 4.8 APG/ 2 SPG (52.6% FG)

Bron: 28 PPG/ 8.2 RPG/ 3.6 APG/ 1.8 SPG (47.2 % FG)

'11 Finals Vs Boston

Wade: 26.5 PPG/ 7.5 RPG/ 5.2 APG/ 1.5 SPG/ 1.5 BPG (54.6% FG)

Bron: 17.8 PPG/ 7.2 RPG/ 6.8 APG/ 1.7 SPG (47.8% FG) *3rd leading scorer on the team, outscored by the Mavs' bench player Jason Terry*

'11 Playoffs Totals

Wade: 24.5 PPG/ 7.1 RPG/ 4.6 APG/ 1.6 SPG/ 1.3 BPG (48.5% FG)

Bron: 23.7 PPG/ 8.4 RPG/ 5.9 APG/ 1.7 SPG/ 1.2 BPG (46.6% FG)

[navy]

True, but Wade in the ECF that year was worse than LeBron in the Finals.

Wade in the ECF: 19/6/2 on 40.5%
LeBron in the Finals: 18/7/7 on 48%

LeBron was poor relative to his standards but people act as if he was a scrub in the series. His line resembles or exceeds some FMVP's:

14' Leonard 18/6/2
08' Pierce 22/4.5/6
82' Magic 16/11/8
88' Worthy 22/7/4

People act as if he had 8/3/2 on 28%. :lol Every player can have a series here and there that can be nit-picked over a career; LeBron just had poor timing to have one of those in the Finals.
Hmm...

Wade showed up in the fourth quarters and defensively which was crucial in the low scoring/close ECFs games. So no, it wasnt as bad as Lebron's Finals 2011.

Wade was also better in the ECS
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011_ECS.html

:confusedshrug:

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe and Hakeem...

The two that did the most with the least.

[guy]

Jeez, only an idiot or a person with an agenda would say Wade in the 2011 ECF was worse then Lebron in the 2011 Finals and then seriously try to justify it with stats. Lebron's unusual play and approach in the finals was so destructive that the Heat may have been better off if he literally didn't play in the series. You couldn't say anything remotely close to that about Wade in the 2011 ECF.

[GimmeThat]

I wonder what's the justification of voting for multiple players on the same team to be on the MVP ballot though.

were other teams competition just that bad comparing to that one particular team that year. I don't want to just use the excuse that it's a media award.

but they would also have to really undermine the supporting cast, in order to put two players of the same team on the MVP ballot, no?



I guess this would be the imaginary scenario, with base line being that of team record and once you vote for one player for the MVP, you'd then have to remove that player from the team and compare that team with the rest of the field, and another player from that team would have to beat out all competition to receive the second player on the same team vote.

this theory could be applied to the Bulls team after Jordan's first retirement. Where Pippen got the full credit of the Bulls team record instead of having the media to evaluate.

I'm sure there were fluke reasons just based off of trade/injury etc.

[Droid101]

'11 2nd Round Vs Boston (The Season After The Cs forced Bron to flee Cleveland)

Wade: 30.2 PPG/ 6.8 RPG/ 4.8 APG/ 2 SPG (52.6% FG)

Bron: 28 PPG/ 8.2 RPG/ 3.6 APG/ 1.8 SPG (47.2 % FG)

'11 Finals Vs Boston

Wade: 26.5 PPG/ 7.5 RPG/ 5.2 APG/ 1.5 SPG/ 1.5 BPG (54.6% FG)

Bron: 17.8 PPG/ 7.2 RPG/ 6.8 APG/ 1.7 SPG (47.8% FG) *3rd leading scorer on the team, outscored by the Mavs' bench player Jason Terry*

'11 Playoffs Totals

Wade: 24.5 PPG/ 7.1 RPG/ 4.6 APG/ 1.6 SPG/ 1.3 BPG (48.5% FG)

Bron: 23.7 PPG/ 8.4 RPG/ 5.9 APG/ 1.7 SPG/ 1.2 BPG (46.6% FG)
:lebronamazed:

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe and Hakeem...

The two that did the most with the least.

Shaq

[jlip]

Wade was not better than Lebron in the 2011 ECSF against the Celtics. I vividly remember watching that series and seeing Wade dominate the first half of several games and then defering to Lebron in the 2nd half, especially the 4th quarters. It was as if Wade was just completely gassed in the 2nd half sometimes. Going back to the play- by- play and watching video confirm what I remember.

Game 1
Heat win 99-90
Lebron- 22/6/5 42.1fg%
Wade- 38/1/5 66.7fg%
Wade dominated and was clearly better. No contest.

Game 2
Heat win 102-91
Lebron-35/7/2 56fg%
Wade- 28/8/3 40fg%
Lebron was better scoring 24 of his 35 points in the 2nd half leading all scorers in both the 3rd and 4th quarters.

Game 3
Celtics win 97-81
Lebron- 15/7/4 37.5fg%
Wade- 23/6/7 42.1fg%
Both were subpar in a loss, but Wade was better.

Game 4
Heat win 98-90
Lebron-35/14/3 42.9fg%
Wade- 28/9/4 44.4fg%

Lebron again led all scorers in the 4th quarter with 11 including several clutch baskets in the final 2 minutes. Wade and Bosh both had 5 points in the OT to lead the Heat.
Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpvvWwczl8o)

Game 5
Heat win 97-87
Lebron-33/7/4 55fg%
Wade- 34/10/5 68.4fg%

Wade was statistically better this game, but most of his damage was again, in the first half. Once again Lebron was the closer. He had 23 of his 33 points in the 2nd half leading all scorers in both the 3rd and 4th quarters. In the last 2 minutes, Lebron singlehandedly went on a 10-0 run to closeout the game and the series.
Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7xdo_NzKw)

We can't remove game 1 because it happened and was part of the series, but the huge scoring and fg% disparity favoring Wade over Lebron in this one game greatly affected their series averages. Just looking at games 2-5, this is what their averages were:

Lebron- 29.5ppg 8.8rpg 3.3apg 48.3fg% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2011/#78-81-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)
Wade- 28.3ppg 8.3rpg 4.8apg 48.7fg% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/gamelog/2011/#73-76-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)

In three of the four wins, Lebron was better especially in the closing moments. Dominating in the 4th quarter can't all of a sudden become less important because Lebron did it, and it messes up the "Lebron can't close" or "Lebron is only good for 3 quarters" false narrative. When a player puts up comparable stats while clearly being the closer and dominating the most important moments of the game, I don't see how one can claim that he was not the better player.

[JT123]

Wade was not better than Lebron in the 2011 ECSF against the Celtics. I vividly remember watching that series and seeing Wade dominate the first half of several games and then defering to Lebron in the 2nd half, especially the 4th quarters. It was as if Wade was just completely gassed in the 2nd half sometimes. Going back to the play- by- play and watching video confirm what I remember.

Game 1
Heat win 99-90
Lebron- 22/6/5 42.1fg%
Wade- 38/1/5 66.7fg%
Wade dominated and was clearly better. No contest.

Game 2
Heat win 102-91
Lebron-35/7/2 56fg%
Wade- 28/8/3 40fg%
Lebron was better scoring 24 of his 35 points in the 2nd half leading all scorers in both the 3rd and 4th quarters.

Game 3
Celtics win 97-81
Lebron- 15/7/4 37.5fg%
Wade- 23/6/7 42.1fg%
Both were subpar in a loss, but Wade was better.

Game 4
Heat win 98-90
Lebron-35/14/3 42.9fg%
Wade- 28/9/4 44.4fg%

Lebron again led all scorers in the 4th quarter with 11 including several clutch baskets in the final 2 minutes. Wade and Bosh both had 5 points in the OT to lead the Heat.
Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpvvWwczl8o)

Game 5
Heat win 97-87
Lebron-33/7/4 55fg%
Wade- 34/10/5 68.4fg%

Wade was statistically better this game, but most of his damage was again, in the first half. Once again Lebron was the closer. He had 23 of his 33 points in the 2nd half leading all scorers in both the 3rd and 4th quarters. In the last 2 minutes, Lebron singlehandedly went on a 10-0 run to closeout the game and the series.
Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7xdo_NzKw)

We can't remove game 1 because it happened and was part of the series, but the huge scoring and fg% disparity favoring Wade over Lebron in this one game greatly affected their series averages. Just looking at games 2-5, this is what their averages were:

Lebron- 29.5ppg 8.8rpg 3.3apg 48.3fg% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2011/#78-81-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)
Wade- 28.3ppg 8.3rpg 4.8apg 48.7fg% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/gamelog/2011/#73-76-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)

In three of the four wins, Lebron was better especially in the closing moments. Dominating in the 4th quarter can't all of a sudden become less important because Lebron did it, and it messes up the "Lebron can't close" or "Lebron is only good for 3 quarters" false narrative. When a player puts up comparable stats while clearly being the closer and dominating the most important moments of the game, I don't see how one can claim that he was not the better player.
:applause: Ether.

[Roundball_Rock]

No one disputes Wade, once in four years, was better than LeBron in a series. Amazing feat. :applause: What is funny is people act like Wade was dominant, a la 06' Wade. 27/7/5 is very good (definitely better than 18/7/7) but people act is if he had an all-time great series in 2011.


Kobe and Hakeem...

The two that did the most with the least.

I don't think that is necessarily true. Hakeem won in a year where most top teams had one superstar--and one such team, the Pacers, did not even have a superstar. So while it is true Hakeem won as the sole superstar, a second all-star caliber player (Thorpe) and a few other good role players (Maxwell, Horry, Cassell) that is the same formula the Knicks, Bulls, Spurs had. Utah and Phoenix were the only exceptions with Malone/Stockton and Barkley/Johnson.

As to Kobe, Gasol was indeed a weak "sidekick" relative to what the other "sidekicks" on multiple championship teams. However, the Lakers were a deep team with Odom, Artest and Bynum as their number 3-5 players.


I wonder what's the justification of voting for multiple players on the same team to be on the MVP ballot though.

It is partly a function of how MVP voting works: you get five votes, with a first place vote worth the most, a second place vote worth the next most and so on until the fifth vote. If a team has two elite players it is not surprising that the second one would wind up with some votes as people got to their third, fourth or fifth choices. I don't think there is a ballot with names on it, though. Voters simply select five players and designate them in order.


I guess this would be the imaginary scenario, with base line being that of team record and once you vote for one player for the MVP, you'd then have to remove that player from the team and compare that team with the rest of the field, and another player from that team would have to beat out all competition to receive the second player on the same team vote.

Yeah. I think that is basically the way voters are thinking. A person could legitimately think that, say, Kobe was less valuable to his team than Shaq but more valuable to his team than Webber was to his team and vote for Kobe ahead of him.


this theory could be applied to the Bulls team after Jordan's first retirement. Where Pippen got the full credit of the Bulls team record instead of having the media to evaluate.

He did finish 5th in 96' with Jordan--and likely would have been 4th, given how close he was to 4th place Hakeem, if not for late season health issues that caused his numbers to slide.

Going back to LeBron/Wade, Wade sometimes would exceed LeBron in scoring. How often would he have more impact on the game in rebounding, assists or defense?


Wade was not better than Lebron in the 2011 ECSF against the Celtics. I vividly remember watching that series and seeing Wade dominate the first half of several games and then defering to Lebron in the 2nd half, especially the 4th quarters. It was as if Wade was just completely gassed in the 2nd half sometimes. Going back to the play- by- play and watching video confirm what I remember.

Game 1
Heat win 99-90
Lebron- 22/6/5 42.1fg%
Wade- 38/1/5 66.7fg%
Wade dominated and was clearly better. No contest.

Game 2
Heat win 102-91
Lebron-35/7/2 56fg%
Wade- 28/8/3 40fg%
Lebron was better scoring 24 of his 35 points in the 2nd half leading all scorers in both the 3rd and 4th quarters.

Game 3
Celtics win 97-81
Lebron- 15/7/4 37.5fg%
Wade- 23/6/7 42.1fg%
Both were subpar in a loss, but Wade was better.

Game 4
Heat win 98-90
Lebron-35/14/3 42.9fg%
Wade- 28/9/4 44.4fg%

Lebron again led all scorers in the 4th quarter with 11 including several clutch baskets in the final 2 minutes. Wade and Bosh both had 5 points in the OT to lead the Heat.
Video

Game 5
Heat win 97-87
Lebron-33/7/4 55fg%
Wade- 34/10/5 68.4fg%

Wade was statistically better this game, but most of his damage was again, in the first half. Once again Lebron was the closer. He had 23 of his 33 points in the 2nd half leading all scorers in both the 3rd and 4th quarters. In the last 2 minutes, Lebron singlehandedly went on a 10-0 run to closeout the game and the series.
Video

We can't remove game 1 because it happened and was part of the series, but the huge scoring and fg% disparity favoring Wade over Lebron in this one game greatly affected their series averages. Just looking at games 2-5, this is what their averages were:

Lebron- 29.5ppg 8.8rpg 3.3apg 48.3fg%
Wade- 28.3ppg 8.3rpg 4.8apg 48.7fg%

In three of the four wins, Lebron was better especially in the closing moments. Dominating in the 4th quarter can't all of a sudden become less important because Lebron did it, and it messes up the "Lebron can't close" or "Lebron is only good for 3 quarters" false narrative. When a player puts up comparable stats while clearly being the closer and dominating the most important moments of the game, I don't see how one can claim that he was not the better player.

:applause:

It just is amusing to see how much is made out of one series in four years in which Wade was better--and that rare case is used to argue Wade>LeBron retroactively, even though no one held that view in 2011. You could do the same thing with any of these other players. McHale, Kobe, Pippen, all had times when they were better than "the man." This can even be done to Wade: it was Shaq who was the Heat's best player in the 06' ECF. Yet this is conveniently never mentioned.

[ImKobe]

Kobe and Hakeem...

The two that did the most with the least.

Also praise to OP for pointing out that Shaq was Kobe's sidekick after 02 :applause:

[ImKobe]

Fixed.

Only that he wasn't unranked you stupid ****

[Roundball_Rock]

I forgot Heinsohn for the 60's Celtics. He was 10th in MVP voting in 1960 and 6th in 1961.

[kshutts1]

Wow. Never knew Cousy was that good for that long. I knew he was one of the greats, but man... didn't realize he finished in top 10 MVP voting like.. 5?.. times.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron fans cherry-picking games now ("err, game 1 of a 5 game series doesn't count because my hero got significantly outplayed") :oldlol:

I'm not saying Wade "clearly" outplayed LeBron in the 2011 ECF, but he did have a better series. People wanna point to the closeout game, but fail to mention that 4 of those 10 points from LeBron (4th quarter) were in garbage time (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201105110MIA.html#q4) (the other 3 came from a VERY nice assist from Dwade) with the game already out of reach.

Stat-padding and mean-mugging the crowd acting like you just won a championship doesn't make said points "clutch".

The difference in that series, was, what? 8 points? Without Wade's production, the Heat don't get to see LeBron's epic collapse in the finals. :confusedshrug:

[HurricaneKid]

Wade was arguably (meaning probaly) the best player on the 11 team, something Pippen can never say of a team Jordan played with him on.

I wouldn't even blink if any number of posters had made this. But I have come to expect more from you.

If you would seriously argue that you would be dead wrong. LeBron had a RAPM of 8.1 in 2011. He led the league in efficiency. There were some end of game messes to be sure but its absurd, especially in hindsight, to suggest Wade was his equal. He certainly played better in the Finals but this is an MVP conversation and as such has no bearing on the conversation.

On the flip side, Pippen had a significant claim any number of seasons. Pippen led the team in RAPM the entirety of the second threepeat. I know its verboten to speak ill of MJ but Scotty was very close to his equal after the baseball experiment. In any event, he was certainly closer than Wade was to LeBron.

[riseagainst]

00's lakers. Dam really shows that Kobe as the man was certainly not impactful as Shaq as the man.

But dam.... as he developed into a more mature player in the late 00s, he won with Gasol, who wasn't even close to being an MVP candidate.
Respect for carrying the team.
:bowdown:

[HurricaneKid]

Ones series? More like one series that lost the Heat a championship, and the whole playoffs too. Youll never here the end of it because Lebron in the 2010 and 11 playoffs was pathetic.

Nevermind. I had you mixed up with a good poster.

Sooo... Eastern Conf Finals:

LeBron 25.8/7.8/6.6/2.4/1.8 on .447/.389/.864
Wade 18.8/6.4/2.2/1.6/1.2 on .405/.200/.805

But Wade was better? How??

Boston series was pretty close. But LeBron was CLEARLY better against Philly too, having another series where he beat Wade across the board. And that was while matching up with peak Iggy.

[HurricaneKid]

LeBron fans cherry-picking games now ("err, game 1 of a 5 game series doesn't count because my hero got significantly outplayed") :oldlol:

I'm not saying Wade "clearly" outplayed LeBron in the 2011 ECF, but he did have a better series. People wanna point to the closeout game, but fail to mention that 4 of those 10 points from LeBron (4th quarter) were in garbage time (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201105110MIA.html#q4) (the other 3 came from a VERY nice assist from Dwade) with the game already out of reach.

Stat-padding and mean-mugging the crowd acting like you just won a championship doesn't make said points "clutch".

The difference in that series, was, what? 8 points? Without Wade's production, the Heat don't get to see LeBron's epic collapse in the finals. :confusedshrug:

We have some creative writing historians around here I see.

Eastern Conf Finals:

LeBron 25.8/7.8/6.6/2.4/1.8 on .447/.389/.864
Wade 18.8/6.4/2.2/1.6/1.2 on .405/.200/.805

But Wade was better? How??

Literally was better AT EVERYTHING.

[Warfan]

We have some creative writing historians around here I see.

Eastern Conf Finals:

LeBron 25.8/7.8/6.6/2.4/1.8 on .447/.389/.864
Wade 18.8/6.4/2.2/1.6/1.2 on .405/.200/.805

But Wade was better? How??

Literally was better AT EVERYTHING.

He meant ECSF. And Wade was better than LeBron overall in the playoffs too...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He meant ECSF. And Wade was better than LeBron overall in the playoffs too...

Glad somebody was reading the thread. :cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow. Never knew Cousy was that good for that long. I knew he was one of the greats, but man... didn't realize he finished in top 10 MVP voting like.. 5?.. times.

Yeah and he was all-NBA first team 10 years in a row too.


On the flip side, Pippen had a significant claim any number of seasons. Pippen led the team in RAPM the entirety of the second threepeat. I know its verboten to speak ill of MJ but Scotty was very close to his equal after the baseball experiment. In any event, he was certainly closer than Wade was to LeBron.

:applause:

RAPM during the Bulls' title years

1991: MJ 5.0, Pip 4.0
1992: MJ 4.9, Pip 3.7
1993: MJ 5.5, Pip 3.2
1996: Pip 5.4, MJ 5.2
1997: Pip 4.6, MJ 4.3
1998: Pip 3.5, MJ 3.0

RAPM for the Heat from 2011-2014

2011: LeBron 8.1, Wade 5.9
2012: LeBron 9.5, Wade 6.1
2013: LeBron 10.1, Wade 4.5
2014: LeBron 7.9, Wade 3.6

People are relying solely on scoring. LeBron>Wade in rebounding, assists and is a much more impactful defender as well.

[riseagainst]

Yeah and he was all-NBA first team 10 years in a row too.



:applause:

RAPM during the Bulls' title years

1991: MJ 5.0, Pip 4.0
1992: MJ 4.9, Pip 3.7
1993: MJ 5.5, Pip 3.2
1996: Pip 5.4, MJ 5.2
1997: Pip 4.6, MJ 4.3
1998: Pip 3.5, MJ 3.0

RAPM for the Heat from 2011-2014

2011: LeBron 8.1, Wade 5.9
2012: LeBron 9.5, Wade 6.1
2013: LeBron 10.1, Wade 4.5
2014: LeBron 7.9, Wade 3.6

People are relying solely on scoring. LeBron>Wade in rebounding, assists and is a much more impactful defender as well.

dat lebron impact doe.
:bowdown:

[HurricaneKid]

He meant ECSF. And Wade was better than LeBron overall in the playoffs too...


Glad somebody was reading the thread. :cheers:

So in a thread about a regular season awards you guys are patting yourselves on the back re: postseason accomplishments which largely didn't even exist. Good to know.

[LeBird]

Wade was not better than Lebron in the 2011 ECSF against the Celtics. I vividly remember watching that series and seeing Wade dominate the first half of several games and then defering to Lebron in the 2nd half, especially the 4th quarters. It was as if Wade was just completely gassed in the 2nd half sometimes. Going back to the play- by- play and watching video confirm what I remember.

Game 1
Heat win 99-90
Lebron- 22/6/5 42.1fg%
Wade- 38/1/5 66.7fg%
Wade dominated and was clearly better. No contest.

Game 2
Heat win 102-91
Lebron-35/7/2 56fg%
Wade- 28/8/3 40fg%
Lebron was better scoring 24 of his 35 points in the 2nd half leading all scorers in both the 3rd and 4th quarters.

Game 3
Celtics win 97-81
Lebron- 15/7/4 37.5fg%
Wade- 23/6/7 42.1fg%
Both were subpar in a loss, but Wade was better.

Game 4
Heat win 98-90
Lebron-35/14/3 42.9fg%
Wade- 28/9/4 44.4fg%

Lebron again led all scorers in the 4th quarter with 11 including several clutch baskets in the final 2 minutes. Wade and Bosh both had 5 points in the OT to lead the Heat.
Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpvvWwczl8o)

Game 5
Heat win 97-87
Lebron-33/7/4 55fg%
Wade- 34/10/5 68.4fg%

Wade was statistically better this game, but most of his damage was again, in the first half. Once again Lebron was the closer. He had 23 of his 33 points in the 2nd half leading all scorers in both the 3rd and 4th quarters. In the last 2 minutes, Lebron singlehandedly went on a 10-0 run to closeout the game and the series.
Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7xdo_NzKw)

We can't remove game 1 because it happened and was part of the series, but the huge scoring and fg% disparity favoring Wade over Lebron in this one game greatly affected their series averages. Just looking at games 2-5, this is what their averages were:

Lebron- 29.5ppg 8.8rpg 3.3apg 48.3fg% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2011/#78-81-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)
Wade- 28.3ppg 8.3rpg 4.8apg 48.7fg% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/gamelog/2011/#73-76-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)

In three of the four wins, Lebron was better especially in the closing moments. Dominating in the 4th quarter can't all of a sudden become less important because Lebron did it, and it messes up the "Lebron can't close" or "Lebron is only good for 3 quarters" false narrative. When a player puts up comparable stats while clearly being the closer and dominating the most important moments of the game, I don't see how one can claim that he was not the better player.

Yep, you really needed to watch the games to understand all that. I recall that series pretty well and Lebron was more important than wide. Even production numbers aside, he generally did it when the game was more in the balance.

[jlip]

LeBron fans cherry-picking games now ("err, game 1 of a 5 game series doesn't count because my hero got significantly outplayed") :oldlol:


This an obvious reply to my post, and No, I'm not really a Lebron fan, but I do consider him the best player in the NBA and on the 2011 Heat team. Next I clearly stated:


We can't remove game 1 because it happened and was part of the series, but the huge scoring and fg% disparity favoring Wade over Lebron in this one game greatly affected their series averages.
How is saying, you can't remove the game from the equation equivalent to saying "game 1 of a 5 game series doesn't count?" The point of showing the stats for games 2-5 was to add context to the stats for the whole series. With a small sample size of just 5 games, one game can greatly impact the averages. That's also why I did a game by game breakdown.


I'm not saying Wade "clearly" outplayed LeBron in the 2011 ECF, but he did have a better series. People wanna point to the closeout game,
Not only did I point to the closeout game, I showed that in 3 of the 4 wins Lebron was better especially when it mattered most. That's the majority of the series.



but fail to mention that 4 of those 10 points from LeBron (4th quarter) were in garbage time (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201105110MIA.html#q4) (the other 3 came from a VERY nice assist from Dwade) with the game already out of reach.
Stat-padding and mean-mugging the crowd acting like you just won a championship doesn't make said points "clutch".


You're just wrong right here and too stubborn to admit it. There was no garbage time in this game. Watch the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7xdo_NzKw#t=5m30s). With 45 seconds to go it is still a one possession game. Lebron proceeds to hit a three with 40 seconds left and it is now a two possession game. That game is nowhere near over. The Celtics have most of their starters in and attempt to throw the ball to Pierce hoping to get it possibly back down to a one possession game with maybe a full shot clock left. Lebron steals the ball on the pass and then basically puts it away with 32 seconds left. Evidently the Celtics didn't think it was garbage time. But you do?:confusedshrug: Keep in mind, it is yet a single digit game 30 seconds to go. While the likelihood of any comeback is now over (due primarily to Lebron) never in my life have I ever heard of a single digit game in the final minute being called garbage time. The last shot (points 9 &10) probably didn't affect the outcome, but it is clear that Lebron put this game away, not Wade. At the 7:23 mark of the video, before Lebron's last shot, Kevin Harlan said, "Lebron has scored the last 8 points grabbing this game by the throat." Only on ISH can Lebron have this type of 4th quarter performance and it not be called clutch.:facepalm

Also, that "VERY nice assist", as you call it, by Wade to Lebron was a routine pass to Lebron because Wade had picked up his dribble and almost got locked down by West (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7xdo_NzKw#t=3m03s). It was almost a bailout pass.



The difference in that series, was, what? 8 points? Without Wade's production, the Heat don't get to see LeBron's epic collapse in the finals. :confusedshrug:
I've never denied that Wade's production was not important. Heck. I will even entertain the notion that a small case can be made that Wade was better for the series, but I feel that a much greater case can be made for Lebron. And yes, Lebron did have an epic collapse in the Finals. I don't think anyone has denied that. BTW...You do realize that there was a series called the ECF in between the ECSF and the Finals where Lebron (and Bosh) basically carried Wade. Right?

[Warfan]

So in a thread about a regular season awards you guys are patting yourselves on the back re: postseason accomplishments which largely didn't even exist. Good to know.

I was just correcting you becuase you couldn't read his post properly. And don't tell me not to discuss postseason play when you did it yourself already in this thread.

The premise of this thread is flawed, atleast as it pertains to lebron and wade. Neither were a sidekick. Wade was arguably better in the playoffs that season. The fact that people just point to MVP voting to determine who was better that year (and several other years) is very ignorant. As it completely disregards the playoffs, the most important games of the year against real and tough competition, where teams are giving 100% and the games mean something.

But nah, lets just ignore the biggest finals choke by any superstar ever because he got voted 2nd in MVP voting, that's all that really matters...

[Roundball_Rock]

The idea that, because of a few games in one series, the perception shifted and elevated Wade past LeBron is revisionist history. If the Heat decided after the season that the "Big 3" could not work and wanted to trade one and elected to make the trade on the basis of who would generate the best offer it easily would have been LeBron who would have drawn more interest from other teams, not Wade.

How about their Finals games?

Game 1: LeBron 24/9/5 56%, Wade 22/10/6 47%
Game 2: Wade 36/5/6 65%, LeBron 20/8/4 53%
Game 3: Wade 29/11/3 57%, LeBron 17/3/9 43%
Game 4: Wade 32/6/2 65%, LeBron 8/9/7 27%
Game 5: LeBron 17/10/10 42%, Wade 23/2/8 50%
Game 6: LeBron 21/4/6 60%, Wade 17/8/6 38%

Each player was better for three games out of six, although when Wade was better it was by a larger margin. So Wade managed to outplay Wade three times in six games. That>>>>>100 games of play over the course of the year and means Wade>LeBron. :bowdown:

Wade, not LeBron, voluntarily took a backseat after 2011. That says it all. The result? Two consecutive championships.

[crisoner]

Season MVP is such a joke.....

Shaq should of had more then one

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How is saying, you can't remove the game from the equation equivalent to saying "game 1 of a 5 game series doesn't count?" The point of showing the stats for games 2-5 was to add context to the stats for the whole series. With a small sample size of just 5 games, one game can greatly impact the averages. That's also why I did a game by game breakdown.

Again, why extrapolate games 2-5? The context you're "providing" gives LeBron an edge, unfortunately it isn't based on reality. Whether or not Game 1 impacted BOTH their averages is irrelevant.

We're already judging these players on a small enough sample.


Not only did I point to the closeout game, I showed that in 3 of the 4 wins Lebron was better especially when it mattered most. That's the majority of the series.

"When it mattered" sounds pretty arbitrary. What actually happened was, Wade had more winshares and a higher player efficiency rating in the series.


You're just wrong right here and too stubborn to admit it.

Nothing in your soliloquy points to me being "wrong" (also not sure why you linked me the 3PT shot LeBron made with 40 seconds left--where did I claim THAT wasn't "clutch"?)

What's more, LeBron's last 4 points (including the layup to put the Heat up 10 with 7 seconds remaining :roll:) WERE when the game was out of reach. How can anyone watch that video and maintain otherwise?

Boston had given up after the 6 point deficit. Once you saw them concede that layup to LeBron, we all knew it.


I've never denied that Wade's production was not important. Heck. I will even entertain the notion that a small case can be made that Wade was better for the series, but I feel that a much greater case can be made for Lebron.

Reality says otherwise. When you include ALL games and remove pointless stat-padding, Dwade was quite clearly the best player in that series - as all advanced metrics say.

[TheMan]

OP going by the flawed logic that MVP means best player in the league that year. Explain Nash two MVPs to Shaq's one?

[Roundball_Rock]

OP going by the flawed logic that MVP means best player in the league that year. Explain Nash two MVPs to Shaq's one?

Of course it does not. The OP provides one way of judging the gap between players on the same team and comparing "sidekicks" with each other relative to the league they were in, i.e. Gasol not receiving MVP consideration suggests he was a cut below Pippen or Wade. Wade in 11' was not even close to LeBron like Kobe was to Shaq in 02', McHale to Bird in 87', or Magic/KAJ were for several years.

[JT123]

The idea that, because of a few games in one series, the perception shifted and elevated Wade past LeBron is revisionist history. If the Heat decided after the season that the "Big 3" could not work and wanted to trade one and elected to make the trade on the basis of who would generate the best offer it easily would have been LeBron who would have drawn more interest from other teams, not Wade.

How about their Finals games?

Game 1: LeBron 24/9/5 56%, Wade 22/10/6 47%
Game 2: Wade 36/5/6 65%, LeBron 20/8/4 53%
Game 3: Wade 29/11/3 57%, LeBron 17/3/9 43%
Game 4: Wade 32/6/2 65%, LeBron 8/9/7 27%
Game 5: LeBron 17/10/10 42%, Wade 23/2/8 50%
Game 6: LeBron 21/4/6 60%, Wade 17/8/6 38%

Each player was better for three games out of six, although when Wade was better it was by a larger margin. So Wade managed to outplay Wade three times in six games. That>>>>>100 games of play over the course of the year and means Wade>LeBron. :bowdown:

Wade, not LeBron, voluntarily took a backseat after 2011. That says it all. The result? Two consecutive championships.
QFT! Even if Wade did SLIGHTLY outplay Lebron in the 11 playoffs, that doesn't mean he was the Heat's best player that season. Westbrook had a better playoffs than Durant this year. Does that mean that in 3 years people are gonna look back on this season and claim that Durant was the second best player in his team in 2014? :oldlol:
There is not a single respectable basketball analyst who thought that Wade was a better basketball player than Lebron during Miami's first season together. Some thought Wade was a better closer, but that is it!

[Roundball_Rock]

QFT! Even if Wade did SLIGHTLY outplay Lebron in the 11 playoffs, that doesn't mean he was the Heat's best player that season. Westbrook had a better playoffs than Durant this year. Does that mean that in 3 years people are gonna look back on this season and claim that Durant was the second best player in his team in 2014? :oldlol:
There is not a single respectable basketball analyst who thought that Wade was a better basketball player than Lebron during Miami's first season together. Some thought Wade was a better closer, but that is it!

:applause:

Exactly. Does anyone today think Westbrook is better than Durant? Yet I wouldn't be shocked if people use the 14' playoffs to diminish Durant in the future.