Where do you rank McHale among all time PFs?

[BoutPractice]

People usually have Duncan as the greatest PF of all time... then there's the giant mess of trying to rank KG, Dirk, Barkley and Malone (lately it seems KG and Dirk are more often than not placed above Barkley and Malone due to the spectacular second half of their careers, but it's still close enough to be debatable). Throw in Bob Pettit somewhere and you've got 6 PFs in the 25ish greatest players of all time.

But where do you rank Kevin McHale, who used to be seen as one of the all-time greatest at the position? Is he your next on the list? How would you round out your top 10 all time PF list?

Just to set the context, Kevin McHale is a 7 time all-star, 3 time champion, 2 time 6th man of the year, 3 time member of the all defensive first team, and widely acknowledged as one of the (if not the) greatest low post scorers in the history of the game, including a year scoring 26 ppg on 66 TS% (the words "second option" don't do him justice, and he probably would have been the first option on most teams... certainly he would be on most teams today).

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Hes clearly behind KG, Dirk, Tim, Chuck and Karl. Dont know much about Pettit like most here but alot will pretend they do. Mchale has no argument whatsoever against the first 5 but hes prolly the best after em

[1987_Lakers]

#7 seems about right.

Peak wise I have him in the top 5. He had the 2nd greatest postseason run as a #2 option (behind '01 Kobe) in '86.

[Dragic4Life]

Below Kevin Love.

[SexSymbol]

top 5.

And top 5 WOAT coaches

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

#7 seems about right.

Peak wise I have him in the top 5. He had the 2nd greatest postseason run as a #2 option (behind '01 Kobe) in '86.
lmfao @ top 5 peak

03 or 04 KG
06 or 11 Dirk
02 or 03 Timmmy
90 or 93 Chuck
97 or 98 Mailman

all take unadulterated dirty chunky baby shits on the best of Mchale

[SHAQisGOAT]

Below Duncan, Malone, KG, Pettit, Chuck, Dirk, Hayes... So at 8th.

He was never a 1st option and his peak/prime lasted little also due to injuries, but he had just one of the greatest peaks for a PF ever... Arguably most array of moves in the post and pretty much close to unstoppable down-low, at least 1on1, could shoot too, plus a great defender, good rebounder and decent passer although too much of a blackhole sometimes.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Srsly some nikkas take the Mchale love too far sometimes
hes arguably the best 1on1 player ever when u look at O and D but he was the 2nd OPTION was getting alot of easy looks and iso opportunities b/c of how Boston had deadly wing shooters like Ainge and Larry drawing defense attention and finding him open

can u imagine Larry/KG:eek: :eek: thats almost perfect compliment:eek:

[East_Stone_Ya]

Below Kevin Love.

troll hard

[GimmeThat]

probably where most other posters have ranked him already.

I'll mention something about the whole 1 on 1 argument though. Saying a certain player is unguardable 1 on 1 for me is essentially a pointless argument. How long does it take for the guy to score and be unguardable 1 on 1, is he taking a lot of time off the shot clock? which generally means help is going to be on the way, so unless he could actually score fast enough, over double team, or play the inside out game, just imagine if he doesn't have players to create those spacing or give him the time to operate downlow to begin with. Can he REALLY score 1 on 1 THAT EASILY?

It's telling me a player who can really shoot the ball well as a 2nd or 3rd option because he fits that role perfectly, and it isn't his main responsibility to "create" those shots, but to execute/finish the play.


Of course, I could be wrong, if he was the magnificant downlow force that it was really difficult for teams to box him out, or that he just had such a quick release that by the time help gets there he had already released the ball.



6-10 210lbs

[Nowitness]

6/7 spot.

[Harison]

~7TH, give or take one spot.

[JellyBean]

For me, the greatest power forwards are:

1. Karl Malone
2. Tim Duncan
3. Charles Barkley
4. Bob Pettit
5. Kevin McHale
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Elvin "Big E" Hayes
9. Dennis Rodman
10. Dave DeBusschere

*LeBron James is in a whole different category of players. He is a forward that plays like a guard. So I am not including him in this section.

[BoutPractice]

GimmeThat > In theory what you posted makes sense.

In reality, McHale was great at creating his own shot AND finishing, and he mostly did so quickly and efficiently: one dribble, fake, finish.

[Thorpesaurous]

McHale is tricky, because of the careers of other guys he can't possibly rank above 7 or so. But if I'm starting a team, I'd take him over most of the guys ranked ahead of him based on his peak and particular skill set.

[GimmeThat]

GimmeThat > In theory what you posted makes sense.

In reality, McHale was great at creating his own shot AND finishing, and he mostly did so quickly and efficiently: one dribble, fake, finish.

I thought of that possibility.
but looking at his stats. and the fact that Larry Bird never even won a scoring title. If he truly was the unstoppable force. I don't understand why he didn't average more shots for more years.

Again, I think his size played a part to it all.
Which might explain the limited amount of prime years.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I thought of that possibility.
but looking at his stats. and the fact that Larry Bird never even won a scoring title. If he truly was the unstoppable force. I don't understand why he didn't average more shots for more years.

Again, I think his size played a part to it all.
Which might explain the limited amount of prime years.


Ofc that having Larry Bird as the #1 option and best player helps a ton, plus that great team they had in 1986 as well... But we say he was unstoppable (in his peak) in a sense that he could simply destroy any type of player in the low-post more often than not, sometimes even more than one player. Barkley even said McHale was the most difficult to stop, for example.
Dude had all types of moves, really long arms, was very agile, great finisher in numerous ways, had a jumper with range and was shooting over 80% from the FT line. But yea, ofc that it helps a lot to have Bird taking most attention and making some crazy passes, while having those other teammates to space the floor and demand attention as well while playmaking, especially since McHale was not a great passer, it helps to have the space to take some open jumpers as well, a great passing team even to "influence" him also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdtgUOiWHJg
McHale was just a great scorer at his best, and much more than that too.

I don't know what you mean by size, but McHale had the perfect body to do what he was doing (incredible post-moves), 6'10'' w/o shoes, lanky and long with a huge wingspan, and remember that back in the day they didn't really keep track of players' weights also.

Also, he really started to peak in 1986 but due to injury was never quite the same since 1987.

[Nowitness]

For me, the greatest power forwards are:

1. Karl Malone
2. Tim Duncan
3. Charles Barkley
4. Bob Pettit
5. Kevin McHale
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Elvin "Big E" Hayes
9. Dennis Rodman
10. Dave DeBusschere

*LeBron James is in a whole different category of players. He is a forward that plays like a guard. So I am not including him in this section.

:facepalm :roll:

Duncan was the greatest PF ever after 6 years. It took Malone like 18 years and a top 5 PG to get 2 MVP's;

It took Duncan 6 years to get 2 MVP's, two chips and 2 FMVP's.

[SHAQisGOAT]

For me, the greatest power forwards are:

1. Karl Malone
2. Tim Duncan
3. Charles Barkley
4. Bob Pettit
5. Kevin McHale
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Elvin "Big E" Hayes
9. Dennis Rodman
10. Dave DeBusschere

*LeBron James is in a whole different category of players. He is a forward that plays like a guard. So I am not including him in this section.

Wow, McHale above KG and Dirk???? I wouldn't even put him above Hayes tbh... As far as peaks you may have an argument and even so not really a great one, as far as careers I can't see it in any world.

[kshutts1]

People usually have Duncan as the greatest PF of all time... then there's the giant mess of trying to rank KG, Dirk, Barkley and Malone (lately it seems KG and Dirk are more often than not placed above Barkley and Malone due to the spectacular second half of their careers, but it's still close enough to be debatable). Throw in Bob Pettit somewhere and you've got 6 PFs in the 25ish greatest players of all time.

But where do you rank Kevin McHale, who used to be seen as one of the all-time greatest at the position? Is he your next on the list? How would you round out your top 10 all time PF list?

Just to set the context, Kevin McHale is a 7 time all-star, 3 time champion, 2 time 6th man of the year, 3 time member of the all defensive first team, and widely acknowledged as one of the (if not the) greatest low post scorers in the history of the game, including a year scoring 26 ppg on 66 TS% (the words "second option" don't do him justice, and he probably would have been the first option on most teams... certainly he would be on most teams today).
No offense to McHale, but the bolded should hardly be arguments for a top 4-7 PF ever.

[T_L_P]

:facepalm :roll:

Duncan was the greatest PF ever after 6 years. It took Malone like 18 years and a top 5 PG to get 2 MVP's;

It took Duncan 6 years to get 2 MVP's, two chips and 2 FMVP's.

Wow, this guy is actually making some sense. :applause:

[BoutPractice]

No offense to McHale, but the bolded should hardly be arguments for a top 4-7 PF ever.
Just providing context, if that's what you conclude from those achievements then fine.

I do think the all-defensive first teams matter, though. We often forget that McHale was more than just a scorer.

[kshutts1]

Just providing context, if that's what you conclude from those achievements then fine.

I do think the all-defensive first teams matter, though. We often forget that McHale was more than just a scorer.
I think it all matters, and I think he's a fabulous player. I just feel like you could, very easily, put the qualifying word "only" before each number, and no one would argue otherwise, you know?

Only 7 all-star games.
Only 3 All D
Only .. etc.

I mean... compared to Pau Gasol? Yeah, it all matters in a big way. Comparing him to the second or third tier of PFs? It gets comical.

[G.O.A.T]

The top 15 power forwards divide pretty well into categories I think.

Franchise players: Barkley, Malone, Duncan, Dirk, KG, Pettit

Near Franchise Players: Hayes, Webber, Haywood, Gasol

Elite complimentary Players: McHale, DeBusschere, Rodman, Maurice Lucas, Gus Johnson


The first group stands out, after that it comes down to what you value more, individual greatness or team greatness (as a major piece obviously)

[kshutts1]

The top 15 power forwards divide pretty well into categories I think.

Franchise players: Barkley, Malone, Duncan, Dirk, KG, Pettit

Near Franchise Players: Hayes, Webber, Haywood, Gasol

Elite complimentary Players: McHale, DeBusschere, Rodman, Maurice Lucas, Gus Johnson


The first group stands out, after that it comes down to what you value more, individual greatness or team greatness (as a major piece obviously)
Is that Pau Gasol? What are you seeing that I'm not? Maybe I've got a case of recency bias?
Was Spencer Haywood's career long enough to be included?

I'd rather have Elton Brand over Pau Gasol, even though his best years are 2-3 years shorter than Pau.

But I think both of those players are in the "forgotten" tier. We may remember them in twenty years, but otherwise they'll be "forgotten greats". Good enough for us to remember, but not good enough for history to remember.

[kshutts1]

And I knew I forgot some players, so I did a quick google search..

Jerry Lucas
Dolph Schayes
Gallatin

Those were all names I was trying to think of. Where are they ranked? Lucas and Schayes in particular.

Edit: This post is still in relation to Pau Gasol.

[BoutPractice]

Is that Pau Gasol? What are you seeing that I'm not? Maybe I've got a case of recency bias?
Was Spencer Haywood's career long enough to be included?

I'd rather have Elton Brand over Pau Gasol, even though his best years are 2-3 years shorter than Pau.

But I think both of those players are in the "forgotten" tier. We may remember them in twenty years, but otherwise they'll be "forgotten greats". Good enough for us to remember, but not good enough for history to remember.

The difference between Elton Brand and Pau Gasol (other than Gasol being better as an overall player) is that you'll get to see Gasol playing in several ESPN classics/the most frequently watched Internet videos on historical basketball, etc., including that famous game 7 where many viewers will conclude that he outplayed Kobe. And because Kobe's legend will only grow after he retires given his broad popularity and fanatical legion of followers, Gasol will benefit...

You rarely "forget" someone who played a key role in 3 different Finals. You definitely forget the Elton Brand types if you're just a casual fan.

[kshutts1]

The difference between Elton Brand and Pau Gasol (other than Gasol being better as an overall player) is that you'll get to see Gasol playing in several ESPN classics/the most frequently watched Internet videos on historical basketball, etc., including that famous game 7 where many viewers will conclude that he outplayed Kobe. And because Kobe's legend will only grow after he retires given his broad popularity and fanatical legion of followers, Gasol will benefit...

You rarely "forget" someone who played a key role in 3 different Finals. You definitely forget the Elton Brand types if you're just a casual fan.
Good point. Doesn't make Gasol better, though. Gotta love the media!

[played0ut]

He is NOT clearly behind the others in skills/impact;

BUT the fact that he was 2nd option behind Larry Bird hurts his standing.



Barkley has said that McHale was the most difficult person for him to play against. The guy with his dangly arms was automatic from the post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdtgUOiWHJg


Anyway, it's hard to rank these guys. They're all amazing and impactful in their own way. It would honestly depend on what your team needs.

i.e, if you already have a great distributor, pick Malone. If you have all around good players pick Duncan. If your players suck, pick Barkley. etc etc.

[Round Mound]

He is NOT clearly behind the others in skills/impact;

BUT the fact that he was 2nd option behind Larry Bird hurts his standing.



Barkley has said that McHale was the most difficult person for him to play against. The guy with his dangly arms was automatic from the post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdtgUOiWHJg


Anyway, it's hard to rank these guys. They're all amazing and impactful in their own way. It would honestly depend on what your team needs.

i.e, if you already have a great distributor, pick Malone. If you have all around good players pick Duncan. If your players suck, pick Barkley. etc etc.

Yup :applause: , Prime Barkley Was Like a Point-Powerforward. He Makes Scrubs Look Like All Stars.

[Round Mound]

My All Time PF List:

1-Barkley
2-Duncan
3-Malone
4-Pettit
5-McHale
6-Dirk
7-Garnett
8-Webber
9-Hayes
10-Schayes

[fpliii]

can u imagine Larry/KG:eek: :eek: thats almost perfect compliment:eek:
:banana:

[LAZERUSS]

My All Time PF List:

1-Barkley
2-Duncan
3-Malone
4-Pettit
5-McHale
6-Dirk
7-Garnett
8-Webber
9-Hayes
10-Schayes

Duncan is a little difficult to rank. He was basically playing center for over half of his career.

As for the rest...

I would throw a blanket over Barkley, Dirk, K. Malone, KG, and Pettit.

AND, I would add Jerry Lucas in that group, as well. People forget that, aside from Wilt, he is the only other full-time player in NBA history to post TWO 20-20 seasons. Furthermore, he was Kevin Love in virtually every aspect of his game, including long-range shooting (Lucas was arguably the greatest "distance" shooter of his era.)

[Round Mound]

Duncan is a little difficult to rank. He was basically playing center for over half of his career.

As for the rest...

I would throw a blanket over Barkley, Dirk, K. Malone, KG, and Pettit.

AND, I would add Jerry Lucas in that group, as well. People forget that, aside from Wilt, he is the only other full-time player in NBA history to post TWO 20-20 seasons. Furthermore, he was Kevin Love in virtually every aspect of his game, including long-range shooting (Lucas was arguably the greatest "distance" shooter of his era.)

Is There Any Footage of Jerry Lucas?

[Dragic4Life]

My All Time PF List:

1-Barkley
2-Duncan
3-Malone
4-Pettit
5-McHale
6-Dirk
7-Garnett
8-Webber
9-Hayes
10-Schayes
http://i.imgur.com/gUGZdVy.png @ Barkley over Duncan and Garnett.

:facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

Is There Any Footage of Jerry Lucas?

Not much, but this is pretty good.

BTW, listen to the comments from about the 33:30 mark...

"The Lucas Layup"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EcTg9sQzKs

Edit: I actually added the video...

[houston]

number 8 indeed

[Round Mound]

http://i.imgur.com/gUGZdVy.png @ Barkley over Duncan and Garnett.

:facepalm

The Same Player That Ages 33-36 Outplayed Duncan and Garnett In Their Head To Heads :confusedshrug: . Or Lets Say Overweight, Back Injured, Knee Injured & Role Player Houston Barkley.

NOT the Sixers or Phoneix Barkley Which Would Have Annihilated Both of Them In The Post and For Rebounds!

[Round Mound]

Not much, but this is pretty good.

BTW, listen to the comments from about the 33:30 mark...

"The Lucas Layup"

Where is the Vid?

[Nowitness]

The Same Player That Ages 33-36 Outplayed Duncan and Garnett In Their Head To Heads :confusedshrug: . Or Lets Say Overweight, Back Injured, Knee Injured & Role Player Houston Barkley.

NOT the Sixers or Phoneix Barkley Which Would Have Annihilated Both of Them In The Post and For Rebounds!

:facepalm:

A) Barkley faced Duncan 8 times (Duncan winning 75% of them). His stats are not that much better. But take into account Barkley also was a weak defender even in Philly and Phoenix then you sir have no argument.

I love how you place a 1x MVP over a 5x Champion, 2x MVP, 3x FMVP, best player on 5 finals teams and one of the greatest defensive players ever simply because he had stats.

Duncan stats aren't as good because he chose to do what it took to win (play defense, help his team mates, play off-ball...) whilst Barkley stayed out of shape.

[Round Mound]

:facepalm:

A) Barkley faced Duncan 8 times (Duncan winning 75% of them). His stats are not that much better. But take into account Barkley also was a weak defender even in Philly and Phoenix then you sir have no argument.

I love how you place a 1x MVP over a 5x Champion, 2x MVP, 3x FMVP, best player on 5 finals teams and one of the greatest defensive players ever simply because he had stats.

Duncan stats aren't as good because he chose to do what it took to win (play defense, help his team mates, play off-ball...) whilst Barkley stayed out of shape.

He Was Still Outplayed by a Fat, Old and Injury-prone Barkley in Rebounds, Points and FG% All While Playing 4-5 MPG More Than Barkley. Now What Would Prime, Healthy and With Ideal Weight Version Barkley Do To Duncan? Smash Him in the Post and For Rebounds! and Run Circles Around Him Off The Dribble or Through Spin Moves. End of Story

[LAZERUSS]

I added the footage to my post on Lucas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EcTg9sQzKs

BTW, it is truly fascinating. He had an amazing memory. Bobby Fischer (the chess champion), didn't believe he could do it, but was just stunned when he asked him the 14th name on page 83 of the New York phone book...and he did it. And he did it effortlessly, too. Phi Beta Kappa at Ohio St.

[Nowitness]

He Was Still Outplayed by a Fat, Old and Injury-prone Barkley in Rebounds, Points, FG% All While Playing 4-5 MPG More Than Barkley. Now What Would Prime Version, Healthy and With Ideal Weight Version Barkley Do To Duncan? Smash Him in the Post and For Rebounds! and Run Circles Around Him Off The Dribble or Through Spin Moves. End of Story

You make it sound like prime Duncan was 1999...

When Barkley cam average 25/17/5/1/5 in an NBA finals against two elite defenders whilst controlling the paint then we can talk.

You do realize for a career (not just 8 games) Barkley was outplayed by Malone averaging 5 less points, a worse FG, equal rebounds, less blocks (he beat him in steals by 0.1 and assists). Why isn't he ranked ahead?

[Round Mound]

You make it sound like prime Duncan was 1999...

When Barkley cam average 25/17/5/1/5 in an NBA finals against two elite defenders whilst controlling the paint then we can talk.

You do realize for a career (not just 8 games) Barkley was outplayed by Malone averaging 5 less points, a worse FG, equal rebounds, less blocks (he beat him in steals by 0.1 and assists). Why isn't he ranked ahead?

[B]How About Barkley

[Nowitness]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]How About Barkley

[Gotterdammerung]

McHale is tricky, because of the careers of other guys he can't possibly rank above 7 or so. But if I'm starting a team, I'd take him over most of the guys ranked ahead of him based on his peak and particular skill set.
Agreed with the first sentence.

The question depends in what kind of team you want or already have:
A system geared towards inside out offense and a defense dedicated to funneling the shooter towards inside of the paint, where your guy erases mistakes?
Duncan.

A system dedicated to screen and roll offense with a great ball control guard, and a physical, fouling defense?
Malone. Garnett.

A team full of athletes and shooters that runs and guns?
Barkley. Nowitzki.

McHale probably needs a hall of fame great to let him score one on one and defend the toughest front court player. Tho he can plug in any of the above teams, I suspect that the aforementioned options are better suited.
:kobe:

[Round Mound]

Stats say otherwise.

And how did he do after those insane games? Did he win like Duncan managed to do?

[B]Stats Say What I Just Said, Cause I Have Those Stats Too.

Nope He Did Not Because He Played In a Tougher Era.

Duncan Would Have Zero Rings Had He Played Show Time Lakers, Big 3 Boston Celtics, Badboy Pistons, MJ-Pippen-Rodman-PHIL Jackson Bulls.

Duncan Has Played With the Best Coach in Modern Basketball and 2 HOFs FROM THE START, HIS PRIME AND YES, HIS WHOLE CAREER!!! That

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Chuck almost always played on stacked team with great great players WTF
Round Mound is the biggest dickrider on ISH:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

The top 15 power forwards divide pretty well into categories I think.

Franchise players: Barkley, Malone, Duncan, Dirk, KG, Pettit

Near Franchise Players: Hayes, Webber, Haywood, Gasol

Elite complimentary Players: McHale, DeBusschere, Rodman, Maurice Lucas, Gus Johnson


The first group stands out, after that it comes down to what you value more, individual greatness or team greatness (as a major piece obviously)
Near franchise players should be able to win playoff games without the aid of a top 10 alltime great

[pastis]

real talk

franchise players: Dirk, Duncan, Barkley, Malone

second tier: KG; Webber, Mchale, Pettit, hayes etc

[GimmeThat]

McHale is tricky, because of the careers of other guys he can't possibly rank above 7 or so. But if I'm starting a team, I'd take him over most of the guys ranked ahead of him based on his peak and particular skill set.

well, not many players can be efficient even when given the opportunity. I'll give you that.

[joeyjoejoe]

Chuck almost always played on stacked team with great great players WTF
Round Mound is the biggest dickrider on ISH:roll: :roll: :roll:

He does have his barkley goggles on a bit but is a good poster just very passionate I guess, anyway my 5 looks like this

Timmy
Malone
Barkley
Dirk
Kg

[L.Kizzle]

Bob Pettit is the most disrespected player (let alone PF) of all time. He won a title in the Russell era. Something only Wilt Chamberlain has done. Not even Elgin Oscar or West did that. 2 MVPs and a championship get him right above the four on this topic and only behind Duncan.

More titles than Barkley and Malone
More MVPs than Barkley KG and Dirk

[SexSymbol]

1.Duncan
2.Dirk
3.Pettit
4.KG
5.McHale
6.Malone
7.Barkley

[T_L_P]

[QUOTE=Round Mound]
Duncan Has Played With the Best Coach in Modern Basketball and 2 HOFs FROM THE START, HIS PRIME AND YES, HIS WHOLE CAREER!!! That