How good is Kobe really?

[Dragic4Life]

Simple question.

I don't know where this argument for GOAT came from, but just looking at his accolades and accomplishments, he's not that much more decorated than other HOFs.

So the dude won some rings? Horry did that.

How good is he really? Say he didn't play with the greatest center of all time Shaq, then is he just another guy?

[moe94]

But he did play with Shaq and he did win as the man. Kobe is top 10. Period.

[Jameerthefear]

But he did play with Shaq and he did win as the man. Kobe is top 10. Period.
Stop this bullshit moe. Kobe is nothing more than a taller Monta Ellis.

[GODbe]

He's the GOAT.

[JerryWest]

Really good.

[SexSymbol]

Kobe is the opposite to OP in quality in their respective areas (Kobe basketball and OP basement dwelling)

[moe94]

Kobe is the opposite to OP in quality in their respective areas (Kobe basketball and OP basement dwelling)

What does this even mean? He's a bad basement dweller?

[SexSymbol]

What does this even mean? He's a bad basement dweller?
yeah.
Not a worse basement dweller than this fakkit

[IllegalD]

Better than Aaron Gordon or any player in the sorry, b*tich-ass Orlando Magic franchise's history, that's fo sho'. :pimp:

[moe94]

Better than Aaron Gordon or any player in the sorry, b*tich-ass Orlando Magic franchise's history, that's fo sho'. :pimp:

Shaq?

[IllegalD]

Shaq?

0 Championships as an Orlando Magic. :confusedshrug:

[moe94]

0 Championships as an Orlando Magic. :confusedshrug:

Team accomplishment. We're talking individual player. Make a thread. Should be interesting. :D

[SexSymbol]

Team accomplishment. We're talking individual player. Make a thread. Should be interesting. :D
team was great

[IllegalD]

team was great

Exactly.

The "great" Shaqtini couldn't win with prime Penny, Horrace Grant, 3D, Nick Anderson.

Then he couldn't win with a young, talented Lakers squad with Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Elden Campbell.

[joeyjoejoe]

He's good ofcourse but probably the most overrated player ever

[moe94]

Exactly.

The "great" Shaqtini couldn't win with prime Penny, Horrace Grant, 3D, Nick Anderson.

Then he couldn't win with a young, talented Lakers squad with Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Elden Campbell.

Shaq didn't magically get better on the Lakers just because he won rings. He was already a better player than Kobe ever was.

[INDI]

To answer your question he is/was amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He is in the majority of people's top 10 of all time list. Let's stop there for a sec... the MAJORITY of basketball fans consider him out of the thousands of people to play in the league, millions of people to play this game, he is one of the 10 best to do it. Let that sync in...

currently most have him anywhere from 6-8. Why go with coulda woulda's when we have facts??? Kobe won with shaq, nobody would give him credit for those rings if he was putting up Horry numbers. Horry probably not even in one game looked like a better player than shaq nor did he put up better stats then shaq. You would have to really dig the crates to even find 5 games where a Horry or fisher was better.

But with Kobe you can damn near split half the season between kobe and shaq when it comes to who had a better game. Once shaq left people said kobe would be exposed. They lost 7 players that year and the greatest coach and everyone said not only will kobe not win another ring, but he will be triple teamed and struggle to average 20+, never win a mvp, etc...

how did that turn out for em????
3 straight finals appearances
2 rings
2 finals maps
League mvp
Averaged 35.4 ppg one year
On the verge of being the 3rd spot on the all time scoring list
Tons of records from 3s made in a game to 40 point streaks

When Horry did this? How bout fisher? Wade? Durant (crickets).

So I'm pretty sure he is solid at the 6-8 slot but tbh when he retires many people might have him in their top 5

[UK2K]

I think Shaq was the most dominant player ever.

Helps that he was on his team but dude has won titles. And he dropped 81.

[IllegalD]

To answer your question he is/was amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He is in the majority of people's top 10 of all time list. Let's stop there for a sec... the MAJORITY of basketball fans consider him out of the thousands of people to play in the league, millions of people to play this game, he is one of the 10 best to do it. Let that sync in...

currently most have him anywhere from 6-8. Why go with coulda woulda's when we have facts??? Kobe won with shaq, nobody would give him credit for those rings if he was putting up Horry numbers. Horry probably not even in one game looked like a better player than shaq nor did he put up better stats then shaq. You would have to really dig the crates to even find 5 games where a Horry or fisher was better.

But with Kobe you can damn near split half the season between kobe and shaq when it comes to who had a better game. Once shaq left people said kobe would be exposed. They lost 7 players that year and the greatest coach and everyone said not only will kobe not win another ring, but he will be triple teamed and struggle to average 20+, never win a mvp, etc...

how did that turn out for em????
3 straight finals appearances
2 rings
2 finals maps
League mvp
Averaged 35.4 ppg one year
On the verge of being the 3rd spot on the all time scoring list
Tons of records from 3s made in a game to 40 point streaks

When Horry did this? How bout fisher? Wade? Durant (crickets).

So I'm pretty sure he is solid at the 6-8 slot but tbh when he retires many people might have him in their top 5

This. :applause:

[Jameerthefear]

Kobe isn't top 10. It's time to grow the **** up.

[SexSymbol]

Kobe isn't top 10. It's time to grow the **** up.
the irony

[riseagainst]

even a lebron fan like myself will have to admit that Kobe is definitely top 10 all-time. He is just that good.

[Dragic4Life]

Kobe isn't top 10. It's time to grow the **** up.
I say top 25 all time. Nothing to be ashamed of really.

[avonbarksdale]

countless people who actually know basketball (eg can actually play basketball, something im sure you have never done) call him top 10


no one thinks your dumb troll threads are funny

[Roundball_Rock]

Exactly.

The "great" Shaqtini couldn't win with prime Penny, Horrace Grant, 3D, Nick Anderson.

Then he couldn't win with a young, talented Lakers squad with Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Elden Campbell.

We never saw a prime Penny...He peaked in his third year and started to decline thereafter. Shaq's team, outside of Grant, had no playoff experience in 95'. This was a team that never even sniffed the playoffs prior to Shaq. They improved from 21 wins to 41 wins in his rookie year but missed the playoffs. In 94' they improved to 50 wins but lost 3-0 in the first round. So 95' was their first run. In 96' they ran into the GOAT team in the ECF. In a normal year they win a ring.

Kobe is top 10 all-time.

1) KAJ/MJ
3) Russell
4) Wilt
5) Shaq
6) Duncan
7) Bird
8) Magic
9) Kobe
10) LeBron

[ralph_i_el]

Top 20 due to accolades. Has never had a better regular season than durant last year.

Individually he's a great player but he has longevity and stacked teams so everybody overrated him.

But but but the MAJORITY says he's top 10! The majority is also ****ing stupid! Case and point: all star voting

How can you be top 10 if you were the best player in the league for the max arguable span of only 3 years...and maybe just 1. All these other goat list guys were undeniably the best in the league in their primes (magic/bird being a bit more nuanced than that)

[Dragic4Life]

Top 20 due to accolades. Has never had a better regular season than durant last year.

Individually he's a great player but he has longevity and stacked teams so everybody overrated him.

But but but the MAJORITY says he's top 10! The majority is also ****ing stupid! Case and point: all star voting

How can you be top 10 if you were the best player in the league for the max arguable span of only 3 years...and maybe just 1. All these other goat list guys were undeniably the best in the league in their primes (magic/bird being a bit more nuanced than that)
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Jacks3]

Well he's easily one of the dozen best players to ever step foot on a court, so I say he's pretty good.

[HOoopCityJones]

Top 20 due to accolades. Has never had a better regular season than durant last year.

Individually he's a great player but he has longevity and stacked teams so everybody overrated him.

But but but the MAJORITY says he's top 10! The majority is also ****ing stupid! Case and point: all star voting

How can you be top 10 if you were the best player in the league for the max arguable span of only 3 years...and maybe just 1. All these other goat list guys were undeniably the best in the league in their primes (magic/bird being a bit more nuanced than that)

I must of missed something, when did Durant win anything? :confusedshrug: The MVP?

Kobe's 06 season shits on Durants last season.

[Cold soul]

I have Kobe ranked 6th all-time and majority have him in 5-9 range. Kobe could still move up a spot or two before he retires not saying it's likely, but possible for sure.

[Dragic4Life]

I have Kobe ranked 6th all-time and majority have him in 5-9 range. Kobe could still move up a spot or two before he retires not saying it's likely, but possible for sure.
6th!?!?!?:facepalm

How about 16th.

[Cold soul]

6th!?!?!?:facepalm

How about 16th.

Wow the mods let you come back. Just great... :facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

I say top 25 all time. Nothing to be ashamed of really.

You answered your own question.

So what's the point of this thread ?

[Dragic4Life]

You answered your own question.

So what's the point of this thread ?
Good question. Before I answer that, what's the point of THIS thread then?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348203

[Im Still Ballin]

Good question. Before I answer that, what's the point of THIS thread then?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348203
This.

[GimmeThat]

really benefited from being 6'6" for the SG position
skillful enough to play against players bigger than him by his skillset
enough athleticism to force a few shots and make them as well

the fact that he couldn't get past the Celtics in 2008 really hurt his legacy
Radmanovic was not a bad player, but they may have favored Odom because of his defense and overlooked his developement.

[Legends66NBA7]

Good question. Before I answer that, what's the point of THIS thread then?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348203

To bait dumbasses like you.

:confusedshrug:


Making the same thread of another player from a thread doesn't make any sense to begin with doesn't make this board better.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Most all NBA and all defensive team awards combined of all time...

[DMAVS41]

Somewhere between the 10th and 15th best player ever imo.

So pretty ****ing good.

[JellyBean]

Simple question.

I don't know where this argument for GOAT came from, but just looking at his accolades and accomplishments, he's not that much more decorated than other HOFs.

So the dude won some rings? Horry did that.

How good is he really? Say he didn't play with the greatest center of all time Shaq, then is he just another guy?


:facepalm

When has a 13th pick (NBA) ever manage to score over 30,000 points, 15x All-NBA appearance, 12x All-Defensive teams, 4 ASG MVPs, and play at a high clip at the age of 34? Is that good enough for ya? Also, if Kobe would have never played on the same team with Shaq, Kobe still would have been great.

My favorite quote about Kobe came from an NBA scout back in 2008ish: "Allen Iverson loves to play when the lights come on. Kobe loves doing the s--- before the lights come on."

Courtesy of: http://www.businessinsider.com/17-examples-of-kobe-bryants-insane-work-ethic-2013-8?op=1#ixzz382Ea7fSC

[Dragic4Life]

Somewhere between the 10th and 15th best player ever imo.

So pretty ****ing good.
I agree, truthfully, no trolling, around 13/14th spot on the all time list.

Nothing to be ashamed of.

[Heavincent]

Between 6 and 10.

[sweggeh]

Did the mods just delete posts from this thread :biggums:

[Heavincent]

Somewhere between the 10th and 15th best player ever imo.

So pretty ****ing good.

lol dude you really don't think he has a case of being better than 10th? Ridiculous.

[DMAVS41]

lol dude you really don't think he has a case of being better than 10th? Ridiculous.

Case? Sure...

But I just think Shaq, Bird, Hakeem, Duncan, and Lebron (barring serious injury) deserve to be ranked higher. Thought they were all better players.

[sammichoffate]

He's 6th on my list, whoever ranks him outside the top 10 doesn't appreciate a great player. He'll probably move down to 7th or 8th though by the time he retires.

[LA_Showtime]

Kobe's that weird case where his career stats are worse than his overall impact, but his longevity is overrated, because in the last couple years he hasn't impacted the game the way his numbers indicate. Really the only accurate thing is the number of titles -- Five.

[Dragic4Life]

Kobe's that weird case where his career stats are worse than his overall impact, but his longevity is overrated, because in the last couple years he hasn't impacted the game the way his numbers indicate. Really the only accurate thing is the number of titles -- Five.
Yup five titles. But that's not really the entire story there is it you cheeky monkey?:lol :oldlol:

[DJ Leon Smith]

Kobe's that weird case where his career stats are worse than his overall impact, but his longevity is overrated, because in the last couple years he hasn't impacted the game the way his numbers indicate. Really the only accurate thing is the number of titles -- Five.

Kobe's that exact case where his stats are exact to his overall impact but his stans overrate him and make him look worse to objective observers.

Congrats on being a stan and making your hero look worse!

[LA_Showtime]

Yup five titles. But that's not really the entire story there is it you cheeky monkey?:lol :oldlol:

I mean yeah, it ignores his obvious flaws as a player, but when it comes down to it Kobe won, and he won a lot.

[dc_chilling]

I see Kobe as one of the best individual players ever.

However, "individual" also sums up Kobe's game/mentality as well.

He doesn't make those around him better, and top players don't want to play alongside him.

Anyone who can average 35ppg in the NBA is really good. He isn't in the GOAT running but nonetheless he was a great player.

[DMAVS41]

I mean yeah, it ignores his obvious flaws as a player, but when it comes down to it Kobe won, and he won a lot.

Of course, but he also won a lot (3 titles and 4 finals appearances) with Shaq.

Seems like his entire career...success, impact, circumstances, stats, advanced stats...teammate, leadership...etc. Seems like it should all matter.

My personal opinion is that you put it all together and you get a fringe top 10 player, but for sure top 15.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Of course, but he also won a lot (3 titles and 4 finals appearances) with Shaq.

Seems like his entire career...success, impact, circumstances, stats, advanced stats...teammate, leadership...etc. Seems like it should all matter.

My personal opinion is that you put it all together and you get a fringe top 10 player, but for sure top 15.

And magic won with Kareem, Kareem won with magic, Bird won with McHale & Parrish, Jordan won with Pippen, Jordan won with Pippen & Rodman.

What's your point

[Dragic4Life]

And magic won with Kareem, Kareem won with magic, Bird won with McHale & Parrish, Jordan won with Pippen, Jordan won with Pippen & Rodman.

What's your point
Nobody had help like Kobe had. THE GREATEST CENTER OF ALL TIME FFS.

[LA_Showtime]

Of course, but he also won a lot (3 titles and 4 finals appearances) with Shaq.

Seems like his entire career...success, impact, circumstances, stats, advanced stats...teammate, leadership...etc. Seems like it should all matter.

My personal opinion is that you put it all together and you get a fringe top 10 player, but for sure top 15.

You're absolutely right. When I made my comment, I wasn't really using that as an argument when it comes to where Kobe stands all-time. But I agree with you, he's obviously a top 15 player of all-time, and arguably a top 10. His career, however, is clearly top 10.

I know people like to criticize Kobe and use Shaq against him, but I think it's a testament to his skill level that he was able to co-exist for Shaq and win 3 titles. Though he's been called inherently selfish, he did a great job playing second fiddle and 1B to Shaq during those runs. His numbers during those years also don't indicate he was a sidekick.

[dc_chilling]

You're absolutely right. When I made my comment, I wasn't really using that as an argument when it comes to where Kobe stands all-time. But I agree with you, he's obviously a top 15 player of all-time, and arguably a top 10. His career, however, is clearly top 10.

I know people like to criticize Kobe and use Shaq against him, but I think it's a testament to his skill level that he was able to co-exist for Shaq and win 3 titles. Though he's been called inherently selfish, he did a great job playing second fiddle and 1B to Shaq during those runs. His numbers during those years also don't indicate he was a sidekick.

This.

Kobe was incredible during that stretch of championships. I feel like Kobe stans overrate Kobe so much sometimes that it causes people to tear Kobe's sidekick years down. While it's absolutely true that Shaq was the alpha dog on the team (and really of the whole league), Kobe was balling out during that stretch. Especially towards the end of that mini dynasty, it became a much more even partnership than most people give Kobe credit for.

I would put Kobe top 10 as a player/talent. Top 15 in terms of accolades.

[chazzy]

Pretty good

[DMAVS41]

You're absolutely right. When I made my comment, I wasn't really using that as an argument when it comes to where Kobe stands all-time. But I agree with you, he's obviously a top 15 player of all-time, and arguably a top 10. His career, however, is clearly top 10.

I know people like to criticize Kobe and use Shaq against him, but I think it's a testament to his skill level that he was able to co-exist for Shaq and win 3 titles. Though he's been called inherently selfish, he did a great job playing second fiddle and 1B to Shaq during those runs. His numbers during those years also don't indicate he was a sidekick.

He was a straight up sidekick in 00...but absolutely not some normal 2nd guy in 01 and 02.

Absolutely. Getting shit done matters. It's all we can go off of...even if one were to think other players could have filled in for Kobe at times...the point that really matters is that we know Kobe got shit done enough to make 7 finals and win 5 rings. And that does and should matter.

For me, and it's just me, that isn't enough to put him over Hakeem for example.

I wouldn't even think twice about drafting Hakeem over Kobe to start a franchise seeing how their careers played out. It's actually not very close for me.

That is kind of how I do the end part of my rankings. I try to look at their careers and impact as objectively as possible. Then I ask myself which player I'd draft first when comparing two players. No way am I taking Kobe over Hakeem...again...that is just me.

So while I think the career stuff and accolades should play a role...perhaps a big one, I also think the impact and just how good they were plays an even bigger role.

For this reasons...I'll take Hakeem, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, and Lebron (assuming no injury) over Kobe.

[funnystuff]

11th

[ottooooooo]

kobe the goat scorer :applause:

[TheMarkMadsen]

This.

Kobe was incredible during that stretch of championships. I feel like Kobe stans overrate Kobe so much sometimes that it causes people to tear Kobe's sidekick years down. While it's absolutely true that Shaq was the alpha dog on the team (and really of the whole league), Kobe was balling out during that stretch. Especially towards the end of that mini dynasty, it became a much more even partnership than most people give Kobe credit for.

I would put Kobe top 10 as a player/talent. Top 15 in terms of accolades.

:wtf: :wtf:

5x championship
2x FMVP
MVP
16x all star
15x all nba (most all time)
12x all defensive team (2nd all time)
30,000+ points (4th all time)
3rd all time playoff scoring


Ill just stop there, because there aren't 5 players, let alone 14 who top those accolades right there.

[TheMarkMadsen]

He was a straight up sidekick in 00...but absolutely not some normal 2nd guy in 01 and 02.

Absolutely. Getting shit done matters. It's all we can go off of...even if one were to think other players could have filled in for Kobe at times...the point that really matters is that we know Kobe got shit done enough to make 7 finals and win 5 rings. And that does and should matter.

For me, and it's just me, that isn't enough to put him over Hakeem for example.

I wouldn't even think twice about drafting Hakeem over Kobe to start a franchise seeing how their careers played out. It's actually not very close for me.

That is kind of how I do the end part of my rankings. I try to look at their careers and impact as objectively as possible. Then I ask myself which player I'd draft first when comparing two players. No way am I taking Kobe over Hakeem...again...that is just me.

So while I think the career stuff and accolades should play a role...perhaps a big one, I also think the impact and just how good they were plays an even bigger role.

For this reasons...I'll take Hakeem, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, and Lebron (assuming no injury) over Kobe.


Who would care about your opinion on Kobe?

Just the other day you said Dirk >>>>>>> Kobe, and that you would draft Dirk over Kobe.

Save us the paragraphs, we get it you hate Kobe and would probably take Bobby Jackson over him if nobody else besides you knew about it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Who would care about your opinion on Kobe?

Just the other day you said Dirk >>>>>>> Kobe, and that you would draft Dirk over Kobe.

Save us the paragraphs, we get it you hate Kobe and would probably take Bobby Jackson over him if nobody else besides you knew about it.

What is so "bad" about taking Dirk over Kobe? Dirk never got to play with another HOF big man nor the GOAT coach. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Who would care about your opinion on Kobe?

Just the other day you said Dirk >>>>>>> Kobe, and that you would draft Dirk over Kobe.

Save us the paragraphs, we get it you hate Kobe and would probably take Bobby Jackson over him if nobody else besides you knew about it.

Okay. The don't read them or respond. I'm on a basketball message board because I enjoy it.

Yes, I would draft Dirk over Kobe given most reasonable scenarios....especially if I was going to have other quality players/coaching. I think Dirk fits better for winning around quality help. I also like the fact that Dirk is the perfect franchise leader off the court. Is willing to make huge sacrifices on and off the court and has proven an uncanny ability to get a lot out of cast off type players.

Not like I'm saying it's stupid to take Kobe. I just prefer having a guy like Dirk for on and off court reasons.

[Hey Yo]

:facepalm

When has a 13th pick (NBA) ever manage to score over 30,000 points, 15x All-NBA appearance, 12x All-Defensive teams, 4 ASG MVPs, and play at a high clip at the age of 34? Is that good enough for ya? Also, if Kobe would have never played on the same team with Shaq, Kobe still would have been great.

My favorite quote about Kobe came from an NBA scout back in 2008ish: "Allen Iverson loves to play when the lights come on. Kobe loves doing the s--- before the lights come on."

Courtesy of: http://www.businessinsider.com/17-examples-of-kobe-bryants-insane-work-ethic-2013-8?op=1#ixzz382Ea7fSC
He would have been the 8th overall pick if his camp didn't tell the Nets not to draft him.

[Hey Yo]

]And magic won with Kareem, Kareem won with magic[/B], Bird won with McHale & Parrish, Jordan won with Pippen, Jordan won with Pippen & Rodman.

What's your point
Kareem also won w/o Magic. Magic didn't win w/o Kareem.

[TheMarkMadsen]

What is so "bad" about taking Dirk over Kobe? Dirk never got to play with another HOF big man nor the GOAT coach. :confusedshrug:

Great reasoning

What's so bad about taking Dirk over Jordan? He never got to play with the GOAT coach or a HOF small forward & HOF big man.

[DMAVS41]

And magic won with Kareem, Kareem won with magic, Bird won with McHale & Parrish, Jordan won with Pippen, Jordan won with Pippen & Rodman.

What's your point

My point is that we should put everything into context and count everything.

My reason why I rank Magic where I do is not as dependent on titles as Kobe's fans are on his titles.

It's like you Kobe fans think one must be crazy to think Magic Johnson was a better basketball player than Kobe. It's honestly a no brainer for me...I'd take Magic without even thinking twice.

I understand you might feel differently...and that's fine, but just realize that it's not some crazy notion to not blink before taking the likes of Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron..etc. over Kobe as players.

[DMAVS41]

Great reasoning

What's so bad about taking Dirk over Jordan? He never got to play with the GOAT coach or a HOF small forward & HOF big man.

The difference is that MJ was objectively just a far far far far far far far better player than Kobe.

Stop putting Kobe on the level of players that were just flat out way better than he was.

It's not hating to point shit like this out. Kobe was not near the player MJ was. I'm sorry if you don't like that.

So it's not the same at all.

[LAL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy5csF3Mc20

Watch if you love basketball.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The difference is that MJ was objectively just a far far far far far far far better player than Kobe.

Stop putting Kobe on the level of players that were just flat out way better than he was.

It's not hating to point shit like this out. Kobe was not near the player MJ was. I'm sorry if you don't like that.

So it's not the same at all.

Yeah okay :rolleyes:

Kobe is on a whole other level than Dirk. It's not hating to point this shit out.

Kobe is a top 10 lock, while Dirk is a fringe top 20 player.

One fluke ring doesn't discount a career of soft play and choking.

You talk like Kobe is some top 20 player being compared to Jordan.. You're a moron who gets off on hating Kobe. It won't be long until you're in here with all your Alts.

[JT123]

Yeah okay :rolleyes:

Kobe is on a whole other level than Dirk. It's not hating to point this shit out.

Kobe is a top 10 lock, while Dirk is a fringe top 20 player.

One fluke ring doesn't discount a career of soft play and choking.

You talk like Kobe is some top 20 player being compared to Jordan.. You're a moron who gets off on hating Kobe. It won't be long until you're in here with all your Alts.
Kobe stans catching mad feelings! :lol

[DMAVS41]

Yeah okay :rolleyes:

Kobe is on a whole other level than Dirk. It's not hating to point this shit out.

Kobe is a top 10 lock, while Dirk is a fringe top 20 player.

One fluke ring doesn't discount a career of soft play and choking.

Yea, I disagree with that and I can objectively argue my case.


For starters, Kobe is not a top 10 lock. In fact, I'd bet he's routinely out of the top 10 in the coming years because Lebron is going to take his spot if he already hasn't.

Also, I don't see the gap you do...I see Kobe as a top 10 lock type player because of his championships more than his actual play. That is the difference and why Kobe fans don't understand these arguments.

But I don't really care to debate Kobe vs Dirk to be honest.

I just don't see any real reason to think Dirk isn't winning at minimum 4 rings playing with Shaq for 8 years and then having at least 3 to 4 more great chances at a ring.

But that wouldn't change how good they actually are.

All you are saying is that circumstances dictates the level of play these players reach. And I could not disagree more. Kobe playing 2nd fiddle to Shaq does not make him a better player than he was. He was a really good player in 00...but I'm supposed to think what? That Kobe is amazing because they won? Why? Duncan, for example, as a rookie was way better than 00 Kobe.

Because Duncan didn't win the title he's worse? Makes no sense.

And this is the never ending battle with Kobe stans. They want to pretend like Kobe isn't heavily reliant on the 4 finals and 3 titles with Shaq and Phil...but when you really think about it? He is...hugely.

[pastis]

Yeah okay :rolleyes:

Kobe is on a whole other level than Dirk. It's not hating to point this shit out.

Kobe is a top 10 lock, while Dirk is a fringe top 20 player.

One fluke ring doesn't discount a career of soft play and choking.

You talk like Kobe is some top 20 player being compared to Jordan.. You're a moron who gets off on hating Kobe. It won't be long until you're in here with all your Alts.

kobe is a historically shot bricker, especially in crunch time. he won all his titles with super stacked teams, and with one of the greatest coaches ever. not a stacked team = not playoffs and just empty stats.

of course dirk is better than kobe, that is clear. the question is: is kobe better than lebron: yes, he is, cause bron is at the 25-35 range right now.

its so funny that you are mentioning Dirk with choking and not kobe....that is so paradoxical.

[INDI]

Scored more points to than every top 10 player accept the two goats MJ/KAJ

More defensive teams than EVERY top 10 player.

kobe got enough offensive accolades and skill to go toe to toe with anyone but when you add in his defensive accomplishments he leaves them other cats in the dust

That's a bad man and he will be remembered anywhere from the 4th- 7th slot when it's all done. There is literally nothing you can do about it.

[AnaheimLakers24]

top 5
better than bird

[Hey Yo]

In game 7 of the 2010 Finals, Kobe was the 3rd best player on his team that night.

Phil said Metta World Peace was the team MVP in game 7, while Pau put up 19pts, 18 boards 4 dimes and 2 blocks.

11 of Kobe's 23pts came from the FTL

[INDI]

Funny thing about people saying Shaq is better never look at the facts


Kobe is
- better scorer (higher ppg averages)
- more offensive accolades ( Streaks, 4th on all time scoring get list)
-better defender (tied for most defensive teams made alltime)
-more rings
-longevity


How can Shaq be better than kobe when kobe's Offense, Defense, and accolades exceed his?? What else is there to basketball than that?

[INDI]

In game 7 of the 2010 Finals, Kobe was the 3rd best player on his team that night.

Phil said Metta World Peace was the team MVP in game 7, while Pau put up 19pts, 18 boards 4 dimes and 2 blocks.

11 of Kobe's 23pts came from the FTL


Funny thing is you never mentioned how many free throws Pau made, we both know because there is an agenda. Also you failed to mention his 15 rebounds.. how can we take your argument seriously?

[livinglegend]

Funny thing is you never mentioned how many free throws Pau made, we both know because there is an agenda. Also you failed to mention his 15 rebounds.. how can we take your argument seriously?

6-24.
Almost cost his team the game.
If the refs didnt come to the rescue, Lakers would have lost.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If you completely ignore the NBA playoffs for everyone which means throwing out Kobe's 5 rings, you still won't find 10 players with a better career resume than Kobe Bryant...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The difference is that MJ was objectively just a far far far far far far far better player than Kobe.

Stop putting Kobe on the level of players that were just flat out way better than he was.

It's not hating to point shit like this out. Kobe was not near the player MJ was. I'm sorry if you don't like that.

So it's not the same at all.

Exactly.. Let me put this in terms that people can understand:

Kobe’s had hundreds upon hundreds of nights where he SHOULD have cost his team the game, but his teammates covered up his most glaring deficiency.

Kobe’s had so many nights where he’s shot his team out of a win, and even the all-powerful Lakers weren’t able to hide his deficiency (see 2004 finals), and fundamental flaw as a player.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Exactly.. Let me put this in terms that people can understand:

Kobe’s had hundreds upon hundreds of nights where he SHOULD have cost his team the game, but his teammates covered up his most glaring deficiency.

Kobe’s had so many nights where he’s shot his team out of a win, and even the all-powerful Lakers weren’t able to hide his deficiency (see 2004 finals), and fundamental flaw as a player.

Remember when Kobe haters used to stick to giving other players hypothetical championships, now they are seriously clamoring about hypothetical failures too. :roll:

[GODbe]

In game 7 of the 2010 Finals, Kobe was the 3rd best player on his team that night.

Phil said Metta World Peace was the team MVP in game 7, while Pau put up 19pts, 18 boards 4 dimes and 2 blocks.

11 of Kobe's 23pts came from the FTL
:sleeping
http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/280235-2/Kobe+Bryant+holds+both+the+Lakers+2010+NBA+Champio nship+trophy+and+the+2010+NBA+Finals+trophy.JPG
http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/280235-2/Kobe+Bryant+holds+both+the+Lakers+2010+NBA+Champio nship+trophy+and+the+2010+NBA+Finals+trophy.JPG
http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/280235-2/Kobe+Bryant+holds+both+the+Lakers+2010+NBA+Champio nship+trophy+and+the+2010+NBA+Finals+trophy.JPG
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kobe-victory-jersey-tug.gif

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Remember when Kobe haters used to stick to giving other players hypothetical championships, now they are seriously clamoring about hypothetical failures too. :roll:

:confusedshrug:

Shooting 6/24 for the so-called 'best scorer' and a 'top 10 great' IS a failure.

Fortunately for Kobe, the Lakers TEAM managed to win in spite of his short-comings.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:confusedshrug:

Shooting 6/24 for the so-called 'best scorer' and a 'top 10 great' IS a failure.

Fortunately for Kobe, the Lakers TEAM managed to win in spite of his short-comings.

Plenty of top ten players had low field goal percentages in a championship winning game.:facepalm

The Lakers team won by playing great defense and rebounding the ball. By how many rebounds did Kobe out rebound Ray Allen??

[Heavincent]

:confusedshrug:

Shooting 6/24 for the so-called 'best scorer' and a 'top 10 great' IS a failure.

Fortunately for Kobe, the Lakers TEAM managed to win in spite of his short-comings.

Who won FMVP that year?

[Roundball_Rock]

In game 7 of the 2010 Finals, Kobe was the 3rd best player on his team that night.

Phil said Metta World Peace was the team MVP in game 7, while Pau put up 19pts, 18 boards 4 dimes and 2 blocks.

11 of Kobe's 23pts came from the FTL

That's why the "Save Allen" stuff is comical, especially when Kobe fans invoke it. Allen had an impressive 9/1/2 in 41 minutes in Game 6. In Game 7 "Save Allen" dominated the proceedings with 0/4/4. Meanwhile, LeBron had 32/10/11 along with 3 steals in Game 6 (Wade had 14/4/4 and Bosh 10/11/2) and 37/12/4 in Game 7 and there are numerous people attaching an asterisk to that ring, crediting Allen for it, or counting it as half a ring. :roll:

Meanwhile, Kobe went 6-for-24 and got 19/18/4 from Gasol--including 9 offensive rebounds--and 20 points from World Peace and you see no talk about "Save Gasol" or any such stupidity (Kobe did have 15 boards that game, something his detractors overlook).

[TheMarkMadsen]

:confusedshrug:

Shooting 6/24 for the so-called 'best scorer' and a 'top 10 great' IS a failure.

Fortunately for Kobe, the Lakers TEAM managed to win in spite of his short-comings.

Jordan shot 5-19 with 5 turnovers in a finals clinching game in 96.

Bird was 6-18 with 5 turnovers in game 7 of the 84 finals, on a team that included Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson & Cedric Maxwell, probrably the most stacked team of all time, but nobody ever uses that to detract from Birds greatness.

[Soundwave]

He's better than his haters paint him out to be.

He's not as good as some of his fanatical stans try to paint him to be.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

That's why the "Save Allen" stuff is comical, especially when Kobe fans invoke it. Allen had an impressive 9/1/2 in 41 minutes in Game 6. In Game 7 "Save Allen" dominated the proceedings with 0/4/4. Meanwhile, LeBron had 32/10/11 along with 3 steals in Game 6 (Wade had 14/4/4 and Bosh 10/11/2) and 37/12/4 in Game 7 and there are numerous people attaching an asterisk to that ring, crediting Allen for it, or counting it as half a ring. :roll:

Meanwhile, Kobe went 6-for-24 and got 19/18/4 from Gasol--including 9 offensive rebounds--and 20 points from World Peace and you see no talk about "Save Gasol" or any such stupidity (Kobe did have 15 boards that game, something his detractors overlook).

The difference was of course that Ray Allen literally saved the series while Kobe closed the game out in the 4th qrtr from the ft line. Did you forget that already?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

That's why the "Save Allen" stuff is comical, especially when Kobe fans invoke it. Allen had an impressive 9/1/2 in 41 minutes in Game 6. In Game 7 "Save Allen" dominated the proceedings with 0/4/4. Meanwhile, LeBron had 32/10/11 along with 3 steals in Game 6 (Wade had 14/4/4 and Bosh 10/11/2) and 37/12/4 in Game 7 and there are numerous people attaching an asterisk to that ring, crediting Allen for it, or counting it as half a ring. :roll:

Meanwhile, Kobe went 6-for-24 and got 19/18/4 from Gasol--including 9 offensive rebounds--and 20 points from World Peace and you see no talk about "Save Gasol" or any such stupidity (Kobe did have 15 boards that game, something his detractors overlook).

+1

When Kobe does something right, the fanbois will start talking about history. When Kobe is average to below average, these same morons get quiet like a church mouse.

Kobe has had so many poor shooting nights in his career, how can the guy not receive criticism about them? I

[Roundball_Rock]

Allen's 9/1/2 was the reason the Heat won? Not the guy putting up 32/10/11? Did Horry "save" Shaq and Kobe in 2002 (after both Kobe and Shaq missed in the final seconds)? Was Paxson why the Bulls won Game 6 to avoid a Game 7 in Phoenix?

[Heavincent]

+1

When Kobe does something right, the fanbois will start talking about history. When Kobe is average to below average, these same morons get quiet like a church mouse.

Kobe has had so many poor shooting nights in his career, how can the guy not receive criticism about them? I’ll tell you how, they don’t watch the non-national tv games. Even when Kobe fails to live up to their hyperbolic analysis on the national stage, they ignore it.

Ignore the fact that Kobe shrinks in the playoffs, missed 60% of his shots in his Finals appearances as a whole (name another so-called top 10 player that has played as poorly as Kobe has in the finals), and has missed 70% of his game winning and game tying attempts - b-b-but, he’s a “killer”. :oldlol:

So by virtue of rarely being criticized for his many bad performances and the overblown love, Kobe is shown for his good ones. Guy is without a doubt the most overrated athlete I’ve ever seen. If you disagree, name me an athlete who gets his sub-par performances swept under the rug and his decent to good performances are treated as historic.

Nobody tells the truth about Kobe’s defense either. He’s a horrible defender and his effort is inexcusable.

Shrinks in the playoffs? His playoff stats are literally identical to his regular season stats. 5 rings, 2 FMVP's, 3rd in playoff scoring. But yeah, definitely a playoff choker. Idiot.

Typical Kobe detractor nonsense.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jordan shot 5-19 with 5 turnovers in a finals clinching game in 96.

Bird was 6-18 with 5 turnovers in game 7 of the 84 finals, on a team that included Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson & Cedric Maxwell, probrably the most stacked team of all time, but nobody ever uses that to detract from Birds greatness.

Also

Shaq 06 4-11
Duncan 07 4-15
Duncan 05 10-27


Must not be top ten players. :oldlol:

[fiddy]

Kobe isn't top 10. It's time to grow the **** up.
i watched kobe play while you were still in your dad's balls

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Allen's 9/1/2 was the reason the Heat won? Not the guy putting up 32/10/11? Did Horry "save" Shaq and Kobe in 2002 (after both Kobe and Shaq missed in the final seconds)? Was Paxson why the Bulls won Game 6 to avoid a Game 7 in Phoenix?

yes Horry "saved" Kobe/Shaq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqZQ7fYavT4

There is even a song about it :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

That's why the "Save Allen" stuff is comical, especially when Kobe fans invoke it. Allen had an impressive 9/1/2 in 41 minutes in Game 6. In Game 7 "Save Allen" dominated the proceedings with 0/4/4. Meanwhile, LeBron had 32/10/11 along with 3 steals in Game 6 (Wade had 14/4/4 and Bosh 10/11/2) and 37/12/4 in Game 7 and there are numerous people attaching an asterisk to that ring, crediting Allen for it, or counting it as half a ring. :roll:

Meanwhile, Kobe went 6-for-24 and got 19/18/4 from Gasol--including 9 offensive rebounds--and 20 points from World Peace and you see no talk about "Save Gasol" or any such stupidity (Kobe did have 15 boards that game, something his detractors overlook).

Lebron played like ass for the first 4/5 games & had crucial turnovers/missed shots late in the 4th right before Allen's shot..

Why you overlook Kobes play leading up to game 7?

Three 30 points games, including a 38 point performance which should have essentially wrapped up the series (Lakers blew them out in game 6) but nobody besides Kobe showed up. The 2nd leading scorer was Gasol with 12 points on 42%

Kobe was also the sole reason they won game 3, and was clutch as hell in game 7s 4th quarter.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Also

Shaq 06 4-11
Duncan 07 4-15
Duncan 05 10-27


Must not be top ten players. :oldlol:

:applause: :applause:

Don't forget Kareem DIDN'T EVEN PLAY in a finals clinching game 6 in 1980, I guess ill have to drop him out of my top 10

[Warfan]

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]+1

When Kobe does something right, the fanbois will start talking about history. When Kobe is average to below average, these same morons get quiet like a church mouse.

Kobe has had so many poor shooting nights in his career, how can the guy not receive criticism about them? I

[Heavincent]

People ignore that he has had a great team around him nearly every year of his career

Why is that a negative?

Every single top 10 player had great help, some of them had even more help than Kobe.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't agree with everything, but u make some solid points. Kobe is definitely one of my favourite players ever, but people do overrate the **** out of him. Now, he's a top 10 player and a legend don't get me wrong, but people just tend to ignore a lot of the negatives about him. People ignore that he has had a great team around him nearly every year of his career, people ignore his countless off shooting nights (and his selfishness) and overhype his clutch ability. I have a lot of respect for the guy because of his worth ethic and ultra-competitive mentality, but I can't deny all the flaws i see in him as a player that a lot of people gloss over.

How is that different than any other legendary player? Did they not have great teammates around them? Did they not have off shooting nights? Did they make every "clutch" shot?

[zoom17]

you guys all look dumb taking the bait.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:applause: :applause:

Don't forget Kareem DIDN'T EVEN PLAY in a finals clinching game 6 in 1980, I guess ill have to drop him out of my top 10

Damn is there anybody left?



Magic is out too (5-15 in 85)

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't agree with everything, but u make some solid points. Kobe is definitely one of my favourite players ever, but people do overrate the **** out of him. Now, he's a top 10 player and a legend don't get me wrong, but people just tend to ignore a lot of the negatives about him. People ignore that he has had a great team around him nearly every year of his career, people ignore his countless off shooting nights (and his selfishness) and overhype his clutch ability. I have a lot of respect for the guy because of his worth ethic and ultra-competitive mentality, but I can't deny all the flaws i see in him as a player that a lot of people gloss over.

Props to a Kobe fan for keeping it real. :cheers: Kobe’s will to win; his scoring prowess; and his reluctance to acknowledge his age (or longevity) are all admirable traits. No doubt.

I personally have him somewhere between 10-12 all time, I just cant stand the hype. Nor his fanbois - who when start comparing players to Kobe, can't rely on actual measurable performances in a way that connects individual performance to winning games because, usually, said player they're drawing the comparison to, is likely better than Kobe. His fans rather make their case utilizing superlatives, exaggerations, and false narratives.

tldr; stans will be stans

[TheMarkMadsen]

Damn is there anybody left?



Magic is out too (5-15 in 85)

Using Kobe hater logic everybody is out of the top 10

Russell played on stacked teams

Wilt doesn't have multiple FMVPs, so his other ring doesn't count

Hakeem lost in the first round

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Props to a Kobe fan for keeping it real. :cheers: Kobe

[Yao Ming's Foot]

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Props to a Kobe fan for keeping it real. :cheers: Kobe

[knicksman]

if a guy who was regarded as future GOAT with better teammates could only manage 2* rings then he definitely is better than that guy

[LakersFan626]

Stop this bullshit moe. Kobe is nothing more than a taller Monta Ellis.

Kobe made the playoffs with the Smush Parker team. Monta missed the playoffs and lost 50 games with similar supporting casts.

[COnDEMnED]

Kobe put up 23/6/5/2 and was the perimeter defender in the entire league on of the best defenses ever (2000).

He put up 29+/7+/6+/2/1 while playing fantastic defense on what is BY FAR the best post-season team in NBA history (15-1!)

He holds one of the very greatest offensive seasons ever (2006), one of the greatest all-around seasons ever (2003), and multiple all-time great playoff runs (01, 08, 09, 2010).

He has about 8-9 different seasons where he was a top 3 player in the league, 15! All-NBA seasons in total (insane longevity), and a 3-yr peak (06-08) where he put up 32/6/5/2/57% TS/27 PER and was very widely regarded as the greatest player on Earth.

He has one of the sickest post-season stretches EVER with his run from 08-10...30+/6/6/2/57% TS/116 ORTG/26+ PER while leading his team to 3 straight Finals and back-to-back championships.

The dude's career averages are 26/5/5/1.5/56% TS/112 ORTG...over nearly two ****ing decades. He has more 30+ point/40+ point and 50+ point games than anyone outside of Mike and Wilt. During his 10-year prime you'll looking at averages of 29/6/5/2/56% TS/25+ PER...and 4 of those seasons were spent in the GOAT defensive era (99-04). Those numbers are just as good in during his post-season prime...expect no star (outside of Shaq) has ever played better defensive competition during the postseason.
This list is the strongest opposing playoff defenses for modern stars in the playoffs

PS Prime Avg. Opp Drtg ▾
Shaquille O’Neal 101.9
Kobe Bryant 102.6
Kevin Garnett 103.5
Dwyane Wade 103.7
Tim Duncan 103.7
Karl Malone 103.9
Steve Nash 103.9
Dirk Nowitzki 103.9
LeBron James 104.4
Michael Jordan 105
Larry Bird 105.5
Hakeem Olajuwon 105.8
Charles Barkley 105.8
David Robinson 106.5
Magic Johnson 106.7


He has some of the most ridiculous feats/stretches of all-time.
5 different months where he averaged 40+ PPG
9 straight 40+ point games
13 straight 35+ point games
27 40+ point games in one season
10 50+ point games in one season
5 different 60+ point games
81 points
62 points in three quarters
4 straight 45+ point games
A different stretch of 4 straight 50+ point games
Last 30 games of 07: 38 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/58% TS
Last 68 games of 2006: 36+ PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2+ SPG/57% TS/116 ORTG

And he doesn't just dominate in the box-score...dude is also a +/- monster.

He has the #3 RAPM (regularized adjusted +/-) of the decade once you adjust for minutes and is #1 in ORAPM: https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/10-year-rapm

At his offensive peak (06) he put up the greatest adjusted offensive +/- scorer to EVER be recorded at +18.9: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/on-off/2006/

That same year he was #1 in ORAPM at with nobody even remotely close to him: https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2006-rapm

#2 in minute-adjusted 01-12 ORAPM behind only Nash: http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/2012/nba-stats/overrated-and-underrated-via-rapm-part-2/

*note: I realize RAPM is not even close to being a perfect tool, nor do I see it as such. I'm merely pointing out that Kobe definitely seems to be a player who has enormous impact even outside his terrific box-score numbers*

If you wanna just look at his game from a skill/ability/talent position...we're talking about of the 5 best scorers ever, one of the best non-PG creators/play-makers/ball-handlers of all-time, someone who was legitimately a good and sometimes even great defender for many seasons, a fantastic rebounding guard, and a guy with an almost perfect skill-set.

Dude has seasons (2013) where he led the entire freaking lead in post-up efficiency as a freaking guard: Among 106 players to finish at least 75 post-ups with a shot, drawn foul, or turnover, Bryant was the most efficient in the league, per Synergy Sports. The most efficient! At age 34! He hit 55 percent of his post-up shots and produced 1.05 points per possession from the block, per Synergy.

He's one of the greatest mid-range players/shooters ever: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/courtvision-kobe-bryant-and-the-elbow-test/

He can shoot the 3. He has superb handles. He might the greatest triple-threat player ever, and has GOAT level foot-work and shot-making ability. Seriously, we're talking about one of the three best ever in terms of sheer skill.

In terms of accolades/accomplishments...
5 NBA Titles and 7 Finals Appearances
2 Titles/3 Finals as the best player
2X Finals MVP
1X NBA MVP
2X Scoring Champion
15X All-NBA including 11X All-NBA 1st Team
12X All-NBA defensive team including 9X 1st Team
16X Time All-Star


I could go on...but yeah, the guy is ridiculously good. Easily a top 10 player of all-time.
Which one of you is going to be the sucker that has to reply to this? LOL

[Jameerthefear]

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Kobe put up 23/6/5/2 and was the perimeter defender in the entire league on of the best defenses ever (2000).

He put up 29+/7+/6+/2/1 while playing fantastic defense on what is BY FAR the best post-season team in NBA history (15-1!)

He holds one of the very greatest offensive seasons ever (2006), one of the greatest all-around seasons ever (2003), and multiple all-time great playoff runs (01, 08, 09, 2010).

He has about 8-9 different seasons where he was a top 3 player in the league, 15! All-NBA seasons in total (insane longevity), and a 3-yr peak (06-08) where he put up 32/6/5/2/57% TS/27 PER and was very widely regarded as the greatest player on Earth.

He has one of the sickest post-season stretches EVER with his run from 08-10...30+/6/6/2/57% TS/116 ORTG/26+ PER while leading his team to 3 straight Finals and back-to-back championships.

The dude's career averages are 26/5/5/1.5/56% TS/112 ORTG...over nearly two ****ing decades. He has more 30+ point/40+ point and 50+ point games than anyone outside of Mike and Wilt. During his 10-year prime you'll looking at averages of 29/6/5/2/56% TS/25+ PER...and 4 of those seasons were spent in the GOAT defensive era (99-04). Those numbers are just as good in during his post-season prime...expect no star (outside of Shaq) has ever played better defensive competition during the postseason.
This list is the strongest opposing playoff defenses for modern stars in the playoffs

PS Prime Avg. Opp Drtg ▾
Shaquille O

[dubeta]

Kobe's 2/7 in FMVP's

1/20 in MVP's (hes not gonna win one again)

6/24 in clutch games

and a 45% shooter

he basically trails everyone in the top 10 in these stats

No argument for top 10

Heck even Oscar, Jerry West, and Erving are better

So Kobe is 15-17 imo, without Shaq's rings probably 52-55

[COnDEMnED]

Kobe's 2/7 in FMVP's

1/20 in MVP's (hes not gonna win one again)

6/24 in clutch games

and a 45% shooter

he basically trails everyone in the top 10 in these stats

No argument for top 10

Heck even Oscar, Jerry West, and Erving are better

So Kobe is 15-17 imo, without Shaq's rings probably 52-55
BAAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAH...oh man...I appreciate the effort. HAHAHAHA. I bet your friend has told you, you should be a comedian. Classic sense of humor. The second coming of Chris Farley, living in a van, down by the river.

[Roundball_Rock]

He has the #3 RAPM (regularized adjusted +/-) of the decade once you adjust for minutes and is #1 in ORAPM: https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/10-year-rapm


02-11 10 year RAPM

Rank Name Offense per 100 Defense per 100 Off+Def per 200

1 James, LeBron 6.6 2.2 8.8
2 Garnett, Kevin 3 5 8
3 Wade, Dwyane 6.2 0 6.2
4 Ginobili, Manu 4.9 1.2 6.1
5 Bryant, Kobe 6.6 -0.5 6.1
6 Paul, Chris 5.2 0.8 5.9
7 Duncan, Tim 2.6 3.2 5.8
8 Nash, Steve 5.5 0.3 5.7
9 Nowitzki, Dirk 3.8 1.8 5.6
10 Davis, Baron 4.5 0.5 5
11 Pierce, Paul 3.3 1.6 4.9
12 Kidd, Jason 4 0.7 4.7
13 Howard, Dwight 2.8 1.4 4.2
14 Aldridge, LaMarcus 2.5 1.6 4

Interesting.'

Props for all the other research, btw. :cheers:

[knicksman]

kobe is that cool genius who doesnt need to prove himself through stats(grades). Coz result speaks for itself(career) while bran is that stat nerd(who wants to be the top of the class) because of his insecurity. Its really like comparing steve jobs(dropout) to your regular top in the class yet at the end they end up being apple employees.

[dubeta]

kobe is that cool genius who doesnt need to prove himself through stats(grades). Coz result speaks for itself(career) while bran is that stat nerd(who wants to be the top of the class) because of his insecurity. Its really like comparing steve jobs(dropout) to your regular top in the class yet at the end they end up being apple employees.

I guess Robert Horry is bill gates

[Heavincent]

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Kobe put up 23/6/5/2 and was the perimeter defender in the entire league on of the best defenses ever (2000).

He put up 29+/7+/6+/2/1 while playing fantastic defense on what is BY FAR the best post-season team in NBA history (15-1!)

He holds one of the very greatest offensive seasons ever (2006), one of the greatest all-around seasons ever (2003), and multiple all-time great playoff runs (01, 08, 09, 2010).

He has about 8-9 different seasons where he was a top 3 player in the league, 15! All-NBA seasons in total (insane longevity), and a 3-yr peak (06-08) where he put up 32/6/5/2/57% TS/27 PER and was very widely regarded as the greatest player on Earth.

He has one of the sickest post-season stretches EVER with his run from 08-10...30+/6/6/2/57% TS/116 ORTG/26+ PER while leading his team to 3 straight Finals and back-to-back championships.

The dude's career averages are 26/5/5/1.5/56% TS/112 ORTG...over nearly two ****ing decades. He has more 30+ point/40+ point and 50+ point games than anyone outside of Mike and Wilt. During his 10-year prime you'll looking at averages of 29/6/5/2/56% TS/25+ PER...and 4 of those seasons were spent in the GOAT defensive era (99-04). Those numbers are just as good in during his post-season prime...expect no star (outside of Shaq) has ever played better defensive competition during the postseason.
This list is the strongest opposing playoff defenses for modern stars in the playoffs

PS Prime Avg. Opp Drtg ▾
Shaquille O

[dubeta]

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Kobe put up 23/6/5/2 and was the perimeter defender in the entire league on of the best defenses ever (2000).

He put up 29+/7+/6+/2/1 while playing fantastic defense on what is BY FAR the best post-season team in NBA history (15-1!)

He holds one of the very greatest offensive seasons ever (2006), one of the greatest all-around seasons ever (2003), and multiple all-time great playoff runs (01, 08, 09, 2010).

He has about 8-9 different seasons where he was a top 3 player in the league, 15! All-NBA seasons in total (insane longevity), and a 3-yr peak (06-08) where he put up 32/6/5/2/57% TS/27 PER and was very widely regarded as the greatest player on Earth.

He has one of the sickest post-season stretches EVER with his run from 08-10...30+/6/6/2/57% TS/116 ORTG/26+ PER while leading his team to 3 straight Finals and back-to-back championships.

The dude's career averages are 26/5/5/1.5/56% TS/112 ORTG...over nearly two ****ing decades. He has more 30+ point/40+ point and 50+ point games than anyone outside of Mike and Wilt. During his 10-year prime you'll looking at averages of 29/6/5/2/56% TS/25+ PER...and 4 of those seasons were spent in the GOAT defensive era (99-04). Those numbers are just as good in during his post-season prime...expect no star (outside of Shaq) has ever played better defensive competition during the postseason.
This list is the strongest opposing playoff defenses for modern stars in the playoffs

PS Prime Avg. Opp Drtg ▾
Shaquille O

[knicksman]

Your argument is basically trying to say kobe's a good scorer from as many different angles as you can

Kobe is a 25.5 ppg scorer on 45%

LeBron is a 27.5 ppg scorer on 50%

Jordan is a 30 ppg scorer on 50%

u fail

kobe tests his scoring capabilities against tighter situations while bran during 1st quarters. But context is hard for low IQs.

At the end of the day, kobe is that math genius who doesnt need to prove anything so he doesnt care about other stats while bran is that insecure guy whos average in math so he has to be good at other subjects to cover for it. But still math is the hardest just like scoring is the hardest so no matter how high your grades are in other subjects or how good your stats are in other areas, it still wouldnt change the fact that youre not a genius or not the best player unless youre dumb enough to be fooled by them. And the result speaks for itself 5>>2 and thats with bran having better teammates.

[Angel Face]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

[Dragic4Life]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
Where is Lebron you pos.:facepalm

[KNOW1EDGE]

Kobe is top 10.

Top 3 SG of all time.

One of the GOATs

[SamuraiSWISH]

- One of the 5 best basketball players I've ever seen with my own eyes within context. In person, or on television.
- Top 10 All-Time Game and Resume.
- 2nd best SG Ever.
- Best Guard of the 2000s.
- Best Guard since MJ.
- One of the best on ball defenders I've ever seen.
- Most explosive, and self indulgent scorer I've ever seen.

[Dragic4Life]

- One of the 5 best basketball players I've ever seen with my own eyes within context. In person, or on television.
- Top 10 All-Time Game and Resume.
- 2nd best SG Ever.
- Best Guard of the 2000s.
- Best Guard since MJ.
- One of the best on ball defenders I've ever seen.
- Most explosive, and self indulgent scorer I've ever seen.
Shit you just described Lebron.:eek:

[Cold soul]

- One of the 5 best basketball players I've ever seen with my own eyes within context. In person, or on television.
- Top 10 All-Time Game and Resume.
- 2nd best SG Ever.
- Best Guard of the 2000s.
- Best Guard since MJ.
- One of the best on ball defenders I've ever seen.
- Most explosive, and self indulgent scorer I've ever seen.

Well said. :applause:

Nice to see you back man.

[AirFederer]

He's tough to rank given his help (Shaq). Chucking at low fg% and sometimes (alright often) beeing way too selfish hurts him.

But I have him just outside top ten. So he was mostly fantastic to be honest.

[Mr Feeny]

But I have him just outside top ten. So he was mostly fantastic to be honest.

Same here. I don't believe he's one of the top 10 players of all time, but he's up there at the 11-12 range. His shooting percentage is pretty awful(comfortably worse than any of the top 10 scorers all time), and his all-around game id relatively underwhelming compared to some of the greats (Bird, Magic, Lebron, prime Jordan, Hakeem...etc)

Being 12th best player In a sports history is nothing to scoff at, having said that.

[Artillery]

Kobe's in the 12-15 range which is more than fair. Never was the best player in the league. Won the majority of his championships as a sidekick. Barely a top 5 player of the decade.

[KOBE143]

Combine early 90s Bulls Jordan to his late 90s version plus Ray Allen 3pt shooting with prime Johnny Depp looks and you will have Kobe Bryant..

[Artillery]

Combine early 90s Bulls Jordan to his late 90s version plus Ray Allen 3pt shooting with prime Johnny Depp looks and you will have Kobe Bryant..

If he had Johnny Depp looks, his kids wouldn't be so god damned ugly.

[Dragic4Life]

If he had Johnny Depp looks, his kids wouldn't be so god damned ugly.
:roll:

[KOBE143]

If he had Johnny Depp looks, his kids wouldn't be so god damned ugly.
Thats not Kobe's fault tho.. Those kids get Vanessa looks.. Its understandable because his kids are girls.. Give him a boy, and there's no doubt that kid will become the most handsome kid of all time..

[Dragic4Life]

Thats not Kobe's fault tho.. Those kids get Vanessa looks.. Its understandable because his kids are girls.. Give him a boy, and there's no doubt that kid will become the most handsome kid of all time..
He's too beta to produce male.

[INDI]

Kobe is currently at 6

MJ
Kaj
Wilt
Magic
Russell
Kobe
Duncan
Lebron
Shaq
Bird

[Dragic4Life]

Kobe is currently at 6

MJ
Kaj
Wilt
Magic
Russell
Kobe
Duncan
Lebron
Shaq
Bird
Negged.