Do the 2000-02 Lakers 3peat replacing Kobe with any of the following players?

[SouBeachTalents]

Just bold or say the one's that you feel could replace Kobe and help the Lakers 3peat. Or if you're really up for it, say how many titles you feel they'd win with each

VC
Allen
Durant
Iverson
Carmelo
Pierce
LeBron
CP3
Kidd
Parker
McGrady
Nash
Wade

[IllegalD]

Just bold or say the one's that you feel could replace Kobe and help the Lakers 3peat. Or if you're really up for it, say how many titles you feel they'd win with each

VC
Allen
Durant
Iverson
Carmelo
Pierce
LeBron
CP3
Kidd
Parker
McGrady
Nash
Wade

None of those guys would 3peat in Kobe's place.

However, if you replaced Shaq with any of these in their prime:

Webber
Dirk
Duncan
KG
Brand
Gasol
Rasheed
Jermain O'Neal
Antwan Jamison

Kobe wins at least 2 rings. Probably more.

[aboss4real24]

They wouldnt win with nash or kidd because they werent good enuff scorers to put in replace of Kobe

idk bout Pierce cuz hes very inefficient




Err1 else would win on that team

[ImKobe]

None of the players in OP can match Kobe's production in the 2001 Playoffs and the 2002 Finals, not even sure how many of them would have stepped up in the 2000 WCF Game 7 the way a young Kobe did and take over the OT of Game 4 2000 Finals the way Kobe did.

They probably win 1 title from that time period.

You'd also have to factor in that they'd be the same age as Kobe was from that time period, to be a fair comparison.

[IncarceratedBob]

LeBron would win every year he played with peak Shaq

[aboss4real24]

None of the players in OP can match Kobe's production in the 2001 Playoffs and the 2002 Finals, not even sure how many of them would have stepped up in the 2000 WCF Game 7 the way a young Kobe did and take over the OT of Game 4 2000 Finals the way Kobe did.

They probably win 1 title from that time period.

You'd also have to factor in that they'd be the same age as Kobe was from that time period, to be a fair comparison.

Tmac was better than kobe in that time period

[MP.Trey]

Most of those players would win at least one, some would repeat but I don't think people realize how hard it is to three-peat even with one of the GOAT coaches and GOAT centers of all-time. You need to have that championship desire and mindset to win three straight years. I, arguably, only see 4-5 players that might three-peat given the situation.

That's Durant, Wade, LeBron. Maybe Iverson & maybe McGrady(healthy). The PG's Nash, Kidd, CP3 would win one, maybe repeat but ultimately don't score enough on the perimeter and/or have that clutch gene.

[IllegalD]

Tmac was better than kobe in that time period

TMac was NEVER better than Kobe. At BEST he had a SLIGHT edge in 2003 (TMac's best season... just so happens to be one of Kobe's best too, you know, a little something called the 40-point streak, and a 35-point streak).

That was it.

TMac wasn't as good as Kobe from 2000-2002 (the time of the 3peat OP is alluding to).

[abdubaba]

I guess we will never know but lets go with facts... kobe without shaq almost 3 peated. Shaq without kobe resume isnt too impressive.

[kennethgriffin]

take away kobe and they dont win anything


none of those guys are guaranteeing

A) saving the 2000 nba title in 4th quarter of game 7 of the western confrence finals against a better team (25/11/7 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bJfE-REq5s

saving the nba finals in 2000 in game 4 with shaq fouled out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzmRk15I7g4 (28/4/5 )

among other great performances


B) averaging 40 against the spurs and 33ppg as a 2nd option through 3 western series and 30/7/6 overall in the playoffs in 2001

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HtbJFEzJM (45/10/3 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR3kpKk0mfA (48/16/3 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyfR2pDOt3k (36/9/8 )

among other great performances

C) saving the 2002 nba title in game 7 of the western confrence finals against a better team ( 30/10/7 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At-HE_rxDjc

among other great performances


take away kobe and 0 rings...

































/thread

[Im so nba'd out]

Just bold or say the one's that you feel could replace Kobe and help the Lakers 3peat. Or if you're really up for it, say how many titles you feel they'd win with each

VC
Allen
Durant
Iverson
Carmelo
Pierce
LeBron
CP3
Kidd
Parker
McGrady
Nash
Wade
I bolded the people who would 3peat all of them(except ray allen) would win rings with prime shaq but only 2 would 3 peak

[abdubaba]

take away kobe and they dont win anything


none of those guys are guaranteeing

A) saving the 2000 nba title in 4th quarter of game 7 of the western confrence finals against a better team (25/11/7 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bJfE-REq5s

saving the nba finals in 2000 in game 4 with shaq fouled out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzmRk15I7g4 (28/4/5 )

among other great performances


B) averaging 40 against the spurs and 33ppg as a 2nd option through 3 western series and 30/7/6 overall in the playoffs in 2001

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HtbJFEzJM (45/10/3 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR3kpKk0mfA (48/16/3 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyfR2pDOt3k (36/9/8 )

among other great performances

C) saving the 2002 nba title in game 7 of the western confrence finals against a better team ( 30/10/7 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At-HE_rxDjc

among other great performances


take away kobe and 0 rings...

































/thread


Bro u need to slow down. I wouldnt say 0 rings but certainly not 3peat. Definitely not

[GODbe]

take away kobe and they dont win anything


none of those guys are guaranteeing

A) saving the 2000 nba title in 4th quarter of game 7 of the western confrence finals against a better team (25/11/7 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bJfE-REq5s

saving the nba finals in 2000 in game 4 with shaq fouled out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzmRk15I7g4 (28/4/5 )

among other great performances


B) averaging 40 against the spurs and 33ppg as a 2nd option through 3 western series and 30/7/6 overall in the playoffs in 2001

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HtbJFEzJM (45/10/3 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR3kpKk0mfA (48/16/3 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyfR2pDOt3k (36/9/8 )

among other great performances

C) saving the 2002 nba title in game 7 of the western confrence finals against a better team ( 30/10/7 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At-HE_rxDjc

among other great performances


take away kobe and 0 rings...

































/thread

This.:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Jameerthefear]

Yes. A lot of them do. Especially Wade and Durant. Kobe is nothing more than a taller Monta Ellis.

[abdubaba]

Yes. A lot of them do. Especially Wade and Durant. Kobe is nothing more than a taller Monta Ellis.

I hate to reply to posts like u but lets go with facts... out of all that group none of them have done anything impressive without colluding with a fellow player on that list. Kobe has however gone to 3 straight finals and won b2b... shaq couldnt do without kobe what kobe has done without shaq

[Im so nba'd out]

Yes. A lot of them do. Especially Wade and Durant. Kobe is nothing more than a taller Monta Ellis.
I hate kobetards just as much as you but you trippin

[Jameerthefear]

I hate to reply to posts like u but lets go with facts... out of all that group none of them have done anything impressive without colluding with a fellow player on that list. Kobe has however gone to 3 straight finals and won b2b... shaq couldnt do without kobe what kobe has done without shaq
Kobe is a fringe top 15 player only because of Shaq. He's more on T-Mac's tier. It's time to grow the **** up bud. Learn the truth about Kobe Bryant.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron, Durant and Wade all 3-peat. Pierce/TMac/CP3/Melo/Iverson win at least a chip.

[HOoopCityJones]

Lol Lebron couldn't 3peat on his own created stacked Team in his prime , no less.


But he's gonna 3peat with just Shaq? Those Laker squads were two deep, LOL we forget that Lebron needs a Team of spot-up shooters and two superstars to be effective.

LOL@ KD that ***** can't even get outta his conference despite being better than the last time they made it out.

All trolling aside though, only KD and Lebron 3peat with Shaq, imo.

But honestly I don't think LBJ or KD woulda thrived in those situation where Shaq was fouled out etc. and they had to carry the Team home like Kobe did.

Especially against a prime Spurs, and Kings squads.

[Dragic4Life]

All would 3-peat comfortably.

[Boston C's]

all those guys win at least one chip...shaq was just that good during that time span and anyone is out of there mind if you think none of those aforementioned players can't win at least one with shaq when all of them had at least moderate success as the franchise player of their respective teams

[abdubaba]

Kobe is a fringe top 15 player only because of Shaq. He's more on T-Mac's tier. It's time to grow the **** up bud. Learn the truth about Kobe Bryant.

Kobe accomplised more without shaq than any of those players on that list... allen and pirce colluded with each other and kg to win 1... wade and bron colluded with eachother and bosh to almost win 2... tmac had ming and didnt get outta round 1... all kobe got was a player that never won a single playoff game to instantly go to 3 straight finals and b2b rings

[kennethgriffin]

its so easy to just say anyone would 3 peat like kobe

even though nobody other than kobe has 3 peated in their careers out of any current player


even with all the colluding and stacked teams out there...


the lakers 3rd best player on the 2001 or 2002 title teams was derek fisher

:oldlol:

[GimmeThat]

at Kobe's age for a full 3peat?

maybe Lebron/Durant

[kkb_12]

Step 1.

Eliminate players that were never able to reach finals: Carmelo, McGrady, Nash, VC, CP3

Step 2.

Eliminate players that reached finals as role players: Kidd

Step 3.

Eliminate players that do not have amazing work ethics like Iverson, cause three peat is hard work

Step 4.

Eliminate players that have history of disappearing in the most important games/moments like Durant and Lebron

Step 5.

Eliminate players that had chance to threepeat with Shaq but failed to do so like Wade and again Nash

Step 6.

Eliminate players whose position does not fit that Lakers team - Parker or Pierce as starter means that Brian Shaw or 36 years old Harper is your starting SG

That leaves 1 possible candidate: Allen, and I am not convinced that he could do it....

[T_L_P]

2001 or 2002 title teams was derek fisher

:oldlol:

Who averaged 13.4 PPG on .618 TS% in the 01 Playoffs. When you have two offensive superstars infront of you, that is pretty spectacular.

[rule1223]

Replace lebron in 2011 with any of those players and the win the championship, no one can dispute that, and I'm not even suggesting these guys need to be in their primes

[houston]

no they wouldn't

[RRR3]

Lol Lebron couldn't 3peat on his own created stacked Team in his prime , no less.


But he's gonna 3peat with just Shaq? Those Laker squads were two deep, LOL we forget that Lebron needs a Team of spot-up shooters and two superstars to be effective.

LOL@ KD that ***** can't even get outta his conference despite being better than the last time they made it out.

All trolling aside though, only KD and Lebron 3peat with Shaq, imo.

But honestly I don't think LBJ or KD woulda thrived in those situation where Shaq was fouled out etc. and they had to carry the Team home like Kobe did.

Especially against a prime Spurs, and Kings squads.
LOL Prime Shaq>>>>>>Old Wade/Jumpshooting Bosh. LeBron would be the sidekick anyways, Shaq would do the heavy lifting. 3Peating would be most possible with the most recent incarnations of LBJ.

[StephHamann]

Yes. A lot of them do. Especially Wade and Durant. Kobe is nothing more than a taller Monta Ellis.

http://cjzero.com/gifs/CubanFreaks.gif

[Magic 32]

They would have to be elite jumpshooters and also be able to handle pre-06 defense in the western conference.

That eliminates all but peak Ray Allen and T-Mac.

[Nashty]

Replace Kobe with Gordan Giricek and Lakers would still 3peat. They would 4peat because Giricek wouldn't lost the 04 finals like Kobe did. Joke thread :facepalm

[Magic 32]

Replace Kobe with Gordan Giricek and Lakers would still 3peat. They would 4peat because Giricek wouldn't lost the 04 finals like Kobe did. Joke thread :facepalm

http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/files/import/i-5f04ac34cbb60e35fbeb68b57c9e0216-lakers_shaq_kobe_NJ.jpg

[Artillery]

You could replace Kobe with Richard Jefferson and the Lakers still threepeat

[zoom17]

You could replace Kobe with Richard Jefferson and the Lakers still threepeat

:biggums: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

nothing is a lock when the margin of error in 02 was that slim.

a lot of those guys are locks to win in 00 and 01 though.

also, some of those guys would be locks to win 3 titles in 8 years depending on which point in their career you put them on.

Lebron, for example, would easily win 3 plus titles because it didn't take him long to be so good.

Lebron in his 2nd year was as good or better than 00 Kobe (Kobe's 4th year)...Lebron in year 2 was a 27/7/7 player on 47/35/75 shooting splits. Kobe in 00 was a 21/5/4 on 44/34/75 shooting splits in the playoffs.

The Lakers with a 3rd year Lebron in 99 probably win the title....and have better chances in 03 and 04 as well.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Just bold or say the one's that you feel could replace Kobe and help the Lakers 3peat.
LeBron's the only one for definite I could see aiding in the Three Peat.



Durant
Iverson
Pierce
Back to Backs, no Three Peat


McGrady
Wade
If healthy ... Back to Back for sure, possible Three Peat

[Im so nba'd out]

LeBron's the only one for definite I could see aiding in the Three Peat.


Back to Backs, no Three Peat


If healthy ... Back to Back for sure, possible Three Peat
Durant without westbrook keeping the ball out of his hands would 3 peat for sure

[SouBeachTalents]

3peat- LeBron

2-3 rings- Wade & Durant

1-2 rings- Iverson, Pierce, McGrady & Carmelo

Honestly, with how dominant Shaq was in 2000, I think everyone else listed wins at least one ring that season.

[bdreason]

VC
Allen
Durant
Iverson
Carmelo
Pierce
LeBron
CP3
Kidd
Parker
McGrady
Nash
Wade



The bolded would definitely win a ring with Shaq. I would never claim they would 3-peat though.

[dubeta]

Kobe averaged 22 ppg during the 3 peat

So put in any player capable of scoring 22+ points and 3 peat easy

So any star basically

[blessofcurse]

If Kobe replaced by Monta the Lakers should have 4peat. If...if...if

[Fire Colangelo]

Wade averaged 27/5/8 in his 4th season. He got injured in his 5th and came back averaging 30/5/8 in his 6th. So he'd definitely win in 2000,miss out in 2001 due to injury and possibly win in 2002 and 03.

McGrady broke out in 01, so I see him 3peating comfortably from 2000-2002.

Carter was too injure prone starting his 4th season.

Don't see Allen winning anything beyond 2000.

Lebron would probably start winning in his 2nd season.

[And1AllDay]

Most of those players would win at least one, some would repeat but I don't think people realize how hard it is to three-peat even with one of the GOAT coaches and GOAT centers of all-time. You need to have that championship desire and mindset to win three straight years. I, arguably, only see 4-5 players that might three-peat given the situation.

That's Durant, Wade, LeBron. Maybe Iverson & maybe McGrady(healthy). The PG's Nash, Kidd, CP3 would win one, maybe repeat but ultimately don't score enough on the perimeter and/or have that clutch gene.

Great post :applause:

[And1AllDay]

Replace Kobe with Gordan Giricek and Lakers would still 3peat. They would 4peat because Giricek wouldn't lost the 04 finals like Kobe did. Joke thread :facepalm

I like this post for a few reasons, but mainly because you mentioned a potential 4-peat, when the Lakers missed the Finals in 03 when the Spurs went on to win it all. :rockon:

[Dragonyeuw]

The most 'replaceable' Kobe is the 2000 one, Kobe in 2001 had improved immensely and was the best two-way guard from that point on. Considering Kobe's output in the 2000 finals( injured) and the Lakers still won, you could have replaced with healthy Tmac, Durant, Iverson, and Lebron and the result would have been the same. 2001 is where it gets a bit less clear, because Kobe was epic in that playoffs and the western conference was ridiculously loaded with the blazers, spurs and kings. 2001 was also before the defensive rule changes, so its not clear which of those players would be able to hang 48 and 16 on the Spurs like Kobe did in what was a tough defensive era. Lebron likely, don't think anyone else would. That time period was Kobe's best defensive years, on top of being a dynamic scorer.

[IllegalD]

The most 'replaceable' Kobe is the 2000 one, Kobe in 2001 had improved immensely and was the best two-way guard from that point on. Considering Kobe's output in the 2000 finals( injured) and the Lakers still won, you could have replaced with healthy Tmac, Durant, Iverson, and Lebron and the result would have been the same. 2001 is where it gets a bit less clear, because Kobe was epic in that playoffs and the western conference was ridiculously loaded with the blazers, spurs and kings. 2001 was also before the defensive rule changes, so its not clear which of those players would be able to hang 48 and 16 on the Spurs like Kobe did in what was a tough defensive era. Lebron likely, don't think anyone else would. That time period was Kobe's best defensive years, on top of being a dynamic scorer.


Making a HUGE assumption that any of those players at 21 would've put up the kind of performance that Kobe did during the crucial Game 7 against the Blazers in the WCFs where Shaq got held in check and a 21 year old Kobe was the best player on a floor filled with future hall of famers and all-star veterans.

[Dragonyeuw]

Making a HUGE assumption that any of those players at 21 would've put up the kind of performance that Kobe did during the crucial Game 7 against the Blazers in the WCFs where Shaq got held in check and a 21 year old Kobe was the best player on a floor filled with future hall of famers and all-star veterans.

The OP didn't specify whether he meant the 21 year old versions of those players,or prime versions. If it's the 21 year old versions, then yes that changes my position a good deal. Kobe at 21 was probably the most poised mentally out of all the great perimeter players the last decade, in relation to the 21 year old versions of Lebron, Tmac, Durant, etc etc.

[DMAVS41]

Making a HUGE assumption that any of those players at 21 would've put up the kind of performance that Kobe did during the crucial Game 7 against the Blazers in the WCFs where Shaq got held in check and a 21 year old Kobe was the best player on a floor filled with future hall of famers and all-star veterans.

Lebron, at age 21, was considerably better than Kobe was in the 00 season. With guys coming out of high school...it should be years in the league also.

Kobe was in his 4th year in 00.

Doesn't matter for Lebron though...Lebron was better in year 2 than Kobe was in year 4 in my opinion.

[IllegalD]

Lebron, at age 21, was considerably better than Kobe was in the 00 season. With guys coming out of high school...it should be years in the league also.

Kobe was in his 4th year in 00.

Doesn't matter for Lebron though...Lebron was better in year 2 than Kobe was in year 4 in my opinion.

LeBron at 21 had a suspect jumper and wouldn't be able to play his game with Shaq clogging up the lane. Not to mention he was still years away from getting over his "taking clutch shots in pressure situations" hump. Don't see how that translates to them beating the Portland Blazers, especially in that epic game 7.

[DMAVS41]

LeBron at 21 had a suspect jumper and wouldn't be able to play his game with Shaq clogging up the lane. Not to mention he was still years away from getting over his "taking clutch shots in pressure situations" hump. Don't see how that translates to them beating the Portland Blazers, especially in that epic game 7.

Meh...Lebron's been about as good of a distance shooter as Kobe has throughout his career. By his 2nd year he was hitting 3's at a good enough rate.

Kobe averaged 20/5/6 55% TS against the Blazers. Lebron is easily capable of that at any point in his career outside of his rookie year.

In Lebron's 4th year in the conference finals...he averaged 26/9/9 54% TS.


That is the problem with these hypotheticals from the Kobe side of it...you can't just say objectively better players couldn't have done what Kobe did. It wouldn't have played out the exact same way as well. Who knows what would happen. But lets say it did play out that way. We watched 4th year Lebron put on an epic performances against the Pistons in that game 5. So Lebron is capable of doing that? But he's not capable of a 25/11/7 51% TS game against the Blazers? Lebron had a 48/9/7 61% TS game against the Pistons...case closed.

Come on now.

Also, like I said earlier, you'd have to match up years in the league for this. You can't do age because Kobe came out of high school. He was in his 4th year at age 21...so you just use years in the league. And where Kobe then will get the edge on a lot of these guys is on the back end of his career because he was way better than all or most of those guys later on in his career.

But it's not fair to compare a 4th year Kobe to a rookie Iverson, for example....that just doesn't make sense.

[IllegalD]

Meh...Lebron's been about as good of a distance shooter as Kobe has throughout his career. By his 2nd year he was hitting 3's at a good enough rate.

Kobe averaged 20/5/6 55% TS against the Blazers. Lebron is easily capable of that at any point in his career outside of his rookie year.

In Lebron's 4th year in the conference finals...he averaged 26/9/9 54% TS.


That is the problem with these hypotheticals from the Kobe side of it...you can't just say objectively better players couldn't have done what Kobe did. It wouldn't have played out the exact same way as well. Who knows what would happen. But lets say it did play out that way. We watched 4th year Lebron put on an epic performances against the Pistons in that game 5. So Lebron is capable of doing that? But he's not capable of a 25/11/7 51% TS game against the Blazers? Lebron had a 48/9/7 61% TS game against the Pistons...case closed.

Come on now.

Also, like I said earlier, you'd have to match up years in the league for this. You can't do age because Kobe came out of high school. He was in his 4th year at age 21...so you just use years in the league. And where Kobe then will get the edge on a lot of these guys is on the back end of his career because he was way better than all or most of those guys later on in his career.

But it's not fair to compare a 4th year Kobe to a rookie Iverson, for example....that just doesn't make sense.

So now we're going by "years in the league" instead of age?! :roll:

All this you wasted your time writing basically translates to: "I have bs, double-standard criteria to judge players and I just tweak it depending on the situation in order to diminish Kobe and fit my agenda because I don't like him personally, waaaaah" :blah:cry:

[JellyBean]

Just bold or say the one's that you feel could replace Kobe and help the Lakers 3peat. Or if you're really up for it, say how many titles you feel they'd win with each

VC
Allen
Durant
Iverson
Carmelo
Pierce
LeBron
CP3
Kidd
Parker
McGrady
Nash
Wade

In order:
VC-No
Allen-No
Durant-Not 3peat but they win 1 title
Iverson-No
Carmelo-No
Pierce-No
LeBron-Yes(3peat)
CP3-1 title
Kidd-No
Parker-Yes they win but 1-2 titles
McGrady-No
Nash-No
Wade-Yes they win but 1 or 2 titles

[andgar923]

People acting as tho most of the players in that list didn't have great playoff performances in their own right.

Give them PRIME Shaq to draw double teams and simply be a strong force on both sides, and most of those players have a very strong chance in 3peating.

People forget that some of these cats did their thing with inferior teams.

People also forget that Kobe had as many (if not more) duds as he did good moments.

A past prime Wade with a downhill Shaq won the title.
A young Shaq and Penny went to the finals and would've won (eventually).

Iverson took the 76ers to the Finals vs the Lakers, are ya'll telling me he doesn't win at least 2 with PRIME Shaq? Let that shit sink in.

Give PRIME Shaq and the triangle to Bron and he wins more than Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

So now we're going by "years in the league" instead of age?! :roll:

All this you wasted your time writing basically translates to: "I have bs, double-standard criteria to judge players and I just tweak it depending on the situation in order to diminish Kobe and fit my agenda because I don't like him personally, waaaaah" :blah:cry:

What?

You really think it's fair to compare small segments of careers based on solely age?

So what do you do with Duncan? Essentially say he can't do anything at age 20? Well, he wasn't in the ****ing league dude...

How is that fair?

It depends on what you are talking about. It gets very hard to compare guys that come out of high school to guys that went to college...when doing it this way.

Regardless of that though...21 year old Lebron was better than 21 year old Kobe. It's really not debatable....

This is why Kobe and his fans are so ****ing annoying. You flip flop around. Now it's age...then when talking about longevity....you use years in the league...even though Kobe didn't put any mileage on his legs in the first 2 years of his career.

It's just annoying and utterly pointless at this point.

Here is the truth.

Many players could have stepped in and won titles in 00 and 01 on the Lakers.
Very few players could have for sure stepped in for Kobe in 02 and won the title due to such a slim margin of error.
We don't know about 99, 03, and 04 with other players...titles are definitely possible with some guys.


Kobe's longevity is great, but it's extremely over-rated because of his first 2 years....really 3. You guys give him too much credit. He started 57 games in his first 3 games combined. His first 3 years put marginally more wear and tear on his body than Duncan playing in college for 4 years...or Dirk playing international ball leading up to being drafted...etc.

I know Kobe fans hate to hear it, but nobody gives a **** about Kobe's first 2 years. He was a bench player on 60 win teams that did nothing in the playoffs. Sorry, but it's not noteworthy at all.

And what do we see....we see Kobe fans go crazy because Kobe in his 17th year played great in the regular season. Do you guys say 34 years old? Of course not. Because it's far less impressive to say 34 because guys at age 34 have done great shit. But year 17 sounds better. The problem with that is that Kobe's first 2 years are irrelevant compared to a lot of other guys. So you guys want it both ways. Age early on...so Kobe gets an unfair advantage by having 3 full years of NBA experience by age 21...and then use his years in the game laster in his career when he's younger and didn't have a huge burden at all early on in his career.

I hope you are just trying to pull this off and aren't this stupid.

[Dragonyeuw]

LeBron at 21 had a suspect jumper and wouldn't be able to play his game with Shaq clogging up the lane. Not to mention he was still years away from getting over his "taking clutch shots in pressure situations" hump. Don't see how that translates to them beating the Portland Blazers, especially in that epic game 7.

On the topic of assumptions, you're also assuming that Lebron even winds up in that situation against Portland in game 7. 21 year old Lebron was more impactful than 21 year old Kobe, so it's entirely possible that the 2000 Lakers, with prime Shaq and 21 year old Lebron in place of Kobe, take out the Blazers in 6. Or maybe they lose for other reasons.... it's all pointless speculation and the game of basketball is too dynamic for such simplistic 'replace player X with player Y, and this happens' rhetoric.

[DMAVS41]

FYI....

Kobe vs Lebron from age 19 through 23

Kobe 22/5/4 55% TS

Lebron 27/7/7 55% TS

LOL....yea, lets pretend Kobe wins more early on. And that is ignoring Kobe's rookie year and counting Lebron's....because Lebron was a few months older when entering the league.

:roll:

[SOD 21]

Yes: Durant, Lebron and Wade

No: Carter, Allen, AI, Carmelo, Pierce, Parker, Nash

Maybe: Chris Paul and TMAC

[IllegalD]

What?

You really think it's fair to compare small segments of careers based on solely age?

So what do you do with Duncan? Essentially say he can't do anything at age 20? Well, he wasn't in the ****ing league dude...

How is that fair?

It depends on what you are talking about. It gets very hard to compare guys that come out of high school to guys that went to college...when doing it this way.

Regardless of that though...21 year old Lebron was better than 21 year old Kobe. It's really not debatable....

This is why Kobe and his fans are so ****ing annoying. You flip flop around. Now it's age...then when talking about longevity....you use years in the league...even though Kobe didn't put any mileage on his legs in the first 2 years of his career.

It's just annoying and utterly pointless at this point.

Here is the truth.

Many players could have stepped in and won titles in 00 and 01 on the Lakers.
Very few players could have for sure stepped in for Kobe in 02 and won the title due to such a slim margin of error.
We don't know about 99, 03, and 04 with other players...titles are definitely possible with some guys.


Kobe's longevity is great, but it's extremely over-rated because of his first 2 years....really 3. You guys give him too much credit. He started 57 games in his first 3 games combined. His first 3 years put marginally more wear and tear on his body than Duncan playing in college for 4 years...or Dirk playing international ball leading up to being drafted...etc.

I know Kobe fans hate to hear it, but nobody gives a **** about Kobe's first 2 years. He was a bench player on 60 win teams that did nothing in the playoffs. Sorry, but it's not noteworthy at all.

And what do we see....we see Kobe fans go crazy because Kobe in his 17th year played great in the regular season. Do you guys say 34 years old? Of course not. Because it's far less impressive to say 34 because guys at age 34 have done great shit. But year 17 sounds better. The problem with that is that Kobe's first 2 years are irrelevant compared to a lot of other guys. So you guys want it both ways. Age early on...so Kobe gets an unfair advantage by having 3 full years of NBA experience by age 21...and then use his years in the game laster in his career when he's younger and didn't have a huge burden at all early on in his career.

I hope you are just trying to pull this off and aren't this stupid.

:blah :cry:

[moe94]

:blah :cry:

Why even reply if you had nothing to say? :biggums:

[DMAVS41]

:blah :cry:

So could you explain how you'd like to do it with other players that didn't come out of high school?

Just say the sucked because they went to college?

Makes no sense. Again, Kobe's first 2 years don't matter. Nobody should nor does care about a guy starting 7 games in his first 2 years combined, wasn't good enough to make any real impact on playoff teams, and was on loaded 60 win teams essentially without him.

Randomly giving more credit there...while he also got valuable experience in the NBA...is absurd.

You go by years...that way Kobe picks up his edge on these guys later in his career where in year 15 he was elite...while a guy like Iverson was out of the league.

You look at careers and look at how many quality years they had overall. You don't penalize guys for going to college. That makes no ****ing sense!

[dubeta]

Idk what OP's trying to prove, heck replace kobe with the average ISH baller an lakers win 1-2rings. Kobe's 20 pts 40% shooting is easily replaceable

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Why are people trying to compare LeBron first option with roleplayers to Kobe second option with an all time great teammate? LeBron put up worse numbers as a second option than 4 year Kobe in the 2011 finals in his prime. If you want to compare LeBron to Kobe, do it when they were both first options or don't do it at all.

[Bandito]

Just bold or say the one's that you feel could replace Kobe and help the Lakers 3peat. Or if you're really up for it, say how many titles you feel they'd win with each

VC-yeah
Allen-possibly
Durant-yes
Iverson-yes
Carmelo-yes
Pierce-yes
LeBron-posibly
CP3-yes
Kidd-yes
Parker-possibly
McGrady-YES
Nash-yes
Wade-yes

Already made my choice.

[Wade's Rings]

If this is based on Age at the time then i can see them winning 2. 2000 would be Rookie Wade and Wade stepped up huge in the Playoffs but I don't see them Winning it all. They would win it all in 2001 & 2002 though.

If Wade's 4th Year('07) matched up with Kobe's('00) they don't win it this year. They lose in 2001 too. I think they potentially 3-peat from 2002-2004. 2002 would be 2009 Wade and I don't see how they lose at all this year. 2003 would 2010 Wade who lost his jumpshot in the Regular Season but killed the Celtics in the Playoffs...Could see them winning it this year too. 2004 would be 2011 Wade and I could see them winning it this year as well.

[ShawkFactory]

Honestly? Most of them. Lebron, Durant, and Wade for SURE.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't think Durant could replace Kobe and still win 3 championships. His defense, playmaking and overall play in the postseason has left a lot to be desired.

Wade and LeBron would probably win 3 though. LeBron definitely would.

[stalkerforlife]

0 without Kobe.

That is indisputable.

[stalkerforlife]

This is how bad it has gotten for Kobe haters...

Imaginary situations to degrade him.

Top 5 all time. :pimp:

[Mr Feeny]

I don't think Durant could replace Kobe and still win 3 championships. His defense, playmaking and overall play in the postseason has left a lot to be desired.

Wade and LeBron would probably win 3 though. LeBron definitely would.

With LeBron I see them winning in 2003 and 2004 as well. As crazy it sounds, I think Lebron with Shaq would have gotten 5 straight.

[Angel Face]

Durant would be he best choice. Dynamic scorer who doesn't need the ball too much in his hands to produce. Reliable in close games down the stretch. Would play well in the triangle.

[JT123]

With LeBron I see them winning in 2003 and 2004 as well. As crazy it sounds, I think Lebron with Shaq would have gotten 5 straight.
:applause: The smartest poster on this forum has spoken.

[Mr Feeny]

Durant would be he best choice. Dynamic scorer who doesn't need the ball too much in his hands to produce. Reliable in close games down the stretch. Would play well in the triangle.

I agree 100% here. He'd be a perfect fit alongside Shaq and wouldn't need the ball. You're either covering Shaq m2m in the post of Durant is having a field day showing uncontested jumpers.

[Mr Feeny]

:applause: The smartest poster on this forum has spoken.

Why thank you, you Sir:cheers:
Spoken like a true genius and a solid Kobe hater:applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

@Feeny - it would also be LeBron's first time playing with a coach that could make him...dare I say...better. Phil could get a even more out of LeBron, which is downright scary. 5 titles wouldn't surprise me one bit.

I might be underselling Durant (his scoring would be ridiculous with the amount of attention Shaq drew), but Kobe's playmaking was crucial during the Laker 3-peat. As was his defense, back when he actually played it. :oldlol: Wade and LeBron fit that mold a bit more, at least IMO.

[Mr Feeny]

@Feeny - it would also be LeBron's first time playing with a coach that could make him...dare I say...better. Phil could get a even more out of LeBron, which is downright scary. 5 titles wouldn't surprise me one bit.

I might be underselling Durant (his scoring would be ridiculous with the amount of attention Shaq drew), but Kobe's playmaking was crucial during the Laker 3-peat. As was his defense, back when he actually played it. :oldlol: Wade and LeBron fit that mold a bit more, at least IMO.

Yeah, spot on there. Maybe Durant isn't on the other 3's level defensively.

[TheMarkMadsen]

@Feeny - it would also be LeBron's first time playing with a coach that could make him...dare I say...better. Phil could get a even more out of LeBron, which is downright scary. 5 titles wouldn't surprise me one bit.

I might be underselling Durant (his scoring would be ridiculous with the amount of attention Shaq drew), but Kobe's playmaking was crucial during the Laker 3-peat. As was his defense, back when he actually played it. :oldlol: Wade and LeBron fit that mold a bit more, at least IMO.

I don't think Shaq and Bran would have been a good fit

Bran is too ball dominant and has no off ball game, and in his first 7 years had no jumper.. which would have plagued him in the triangle

plus we've never seen lebron give the coach's offense a chance, it's bran ball or die it seems with this guy..

After watching the finals and seeing how Blatt constantly had to stop playing Mozgoff & TT together because they were killing lebrons spacing I just can't see 04-11 lebron working well in a disciplined offense where he would be asked to score primarily from the perimeter which just isn't his strong suit.. especially from 04-11

people forget that Kobe led the playoffs in 4th quarter scoring for the 01 and 02 playoffs..

Kobe was posting series of 33/7/7 at times while primarily playing off ball.. lebron just can not do that..

[KembaWalker]

Durant, LeBron, Wade

TMac if healthy, and possibly Pierce

Kobe haters like to discredit him for this, but none of those above players would win FMVP over Prime Shaq either

[TheBigVeto]

Yeah, pretty much. Stern wanted it that way. Didn't matter who played for the Lakers.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Yeah, pretty much. Stern wanted it that way. Didn't matter who played for the Lakers.

strong username to post relation


next.

[ImKobe]

Just saying what I said in this thread already in the past, if you put those guys at the same age as Kobe was, they do not even win 2 titles in a row.

Lebron, Wade, Pierce at age 21 were not as good as Kobe at age 21.

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron, Wade, Pierce at age 21 were not as good as Kobe at age 21.

Lebron was 21 for the 2005-6 season, averaged rounded 31/7/7 on 48%. You think 2000 Kobe was better than that?

[ShawkFactory]

Durant, LeBron, Wade

TMac if healthy, and possibly Pierce

Kobe haters like to discredit him for this, but none of those above players would win FMVP over Prime Shaq either
Exactly. It's not a knock on Kobe (well I guess on this forum it is) to say that Lebron, Wade, Durant, and Pierce could win with 00-02 Shaq. Especially considering 3 of the 4 are already champions and FMVPs and the other is an MVP and all-time level scorer.

[Magic 32]

http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=207448&d=1406315329

[JohnMax]

Dwyane Wade is the only player who would 3peat with Shaq

[ImKobe]

Lebron was 21 for the 2005-6 season, averaged rounded 31/7/7 on 48%. You think 2000 Kobe was better than that?

I do because 2000 Kobe was not in a role where he had that high of a usage rate. 2000 Kobe was the much better player on the defensive end of the floor plus the next post-season we saw him average 32/7/6 through the WC Playoffs with his team going undefeated, and mind you that he was sharing touches with Shaq...I don't think 2000 Kobe was that much far off the Kobe that got a bigger role the following year.

[Dragonyeuw]

I do because 2000 Kobe was not in a role where he had that high of a usage rate. 2000 Kobe was the much better player on the defensive end of the floor plus the next post-season we saw him average 32/7/6 through the WC Playoffs with his team going undefeated, and mind you that he was sharing touches with Shaq...I don't think 2000 Kobe was that much far off the Kobe that got a bigger role the following year.

So take Shaq out of the picture, you have 2000 Kobe. Do you think he averages the kind of numbers we saw in the 2001 playoffs? I agree he was better defensively than Lebron, but don't think otherwise 2000 Kobe had that kind of impact. He was more polished( has always been) but Lebron was a monster even at 21.

[choppermagic]

None of those guys would 3peat in Kobe's place.

However, if you replaced Shaq with any of these in their prime:

Webber
Dirk
Duncan
KG
Brand
Gasol
Rasheed
Jermain O'Neal
Antwan Jamison

Kobe wins at least 2 rings. Probably more.


Dam, a prime Kobe and Garnett together would have been fierce! The intensity alone would put some players in tears ha ha

[Dragonyeuw]

None of those guys would 3peat in Kobe's place.

However, if you replaced Shaq with any of these in their prime:

Webber
Dirk
Duncan
KG
Brand
Gasol
Rasheed
Jermain O'Neal
Antwan Jamison

Kobe wins at least 2 rings. Probably more.

Those players with a 21 year old Kobe? Not happening, I don't give a damn how good Kobe was in 2001. Those western conference frontlines in the early 2000s was a warzone: Sabonis/Wallace/Grant, Webber/Divac, Duncan/Robinson. You needed someone as dominant as Shaq just to neutralize those frontlines. Does he win with Duncan? Sure, he was top 3 player at that point and of course, if Duncan is on the Lakers that eliminates the Spurs as a contender at that time. Ditto for any of the players like Wallace, Webber, you significantly weaken those teams and take them out of contention. But Jamison? You really think Jamison had anywhere near the physicality needed to endure those frontlines 15 years ago?

[kennethgriffin]

Just bold or say the one's that you feel could replace Kobe and help the Lakers 3peat. Or if you're really up for it, say how many titles you feel they'd win with each

VC
Allen
Durant
Iverson
Carmelo
Pierce
LeBron
CP3
Kidd
Parker
McGrady
Nash
Wade



:lol

[RidonKs]

Just bold or say the one's that you feel could replace Kobe and help the Lakers 3peat. Or if you're really up for it, say how many titles you feel they'd win with each

VC
Allen
Durant
Iverson
Carmelo
Pierce
LeBron
CP3
Kidd
Parker
McGrady
Nash
Wade
bolded they three peat with, assuming west doesn't lose his mind and make a series of bizarre trades that prevent the phil jackson tenure

[ArbitraryWater]

Considering Kobe was just a borderline top 10 player in 2000 and 2002, and the massive room for error in 2001, of course.

[Donkey4trading]

Considering Kobe was just a borderline top 10 player in 2000 and 2002, and the massive room for error in 2001, of course.

:wtf: :biggums:

Kobe was all first team NBA in 02, "borderline top 10" lmao


in 01 LA faced the kings in the second round and every game minus game 3 was decided by 6 points or less..

in that series Kobe averaged 35/9/4 on 59% TS..

in the next series Kobe averaged 33/7/7 on 57% TS

there aren't many players in NBA history capable of putting up those numbers in b2b playoff series, let alone any perimeter player in the league at the time of these runs..

there is no "massive room for error" if Kobe isn't playing like prime Jordan in the middle of the run

every other year they faced a game 7, and Kobe out played Shaq in every game 7 they had together from 00-02..

[kennethgriffin]

so shaq does f*ck all with

- nick anderson averaging 20 ppg
- penny hardaway averaging 22 ppg
- eddie jones averaging 18 ppg
- dwyane wade averaging 24 ppg
- amare stoudemire averaging 25 ppg
- lebron james averaging 29 ppg
- paul pierce averaging 19 ppg


needs wade to average 34 ppg in the finals to shaqs 13 ppg just to get a ring without kobe


and people think shaq can win with anyone


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[JellyBean]

Just bold or say the one's that you feel could replace Kobe and help the Lakers 3peat. Or if you're really up for it, say how many titles you feel they'd win with each

VC
Allen
Durant
Iverson
Carmelo
Pierce
LeBron
CP3
Kidd
Parker
McGrady
Nash
Wade

They will 3-peat and with Durant and LeBron, the Lakers would have won 4 in a row.

[kennethgriffin]

They will 3-peat and with Durant and LeBron, the Lakers would have won 4 in a row.


lebron sabotages teams when he isnt the main man winning the fmvp. he threw the series in 2011

and you think lebron would be happy doing it 4 times with shaq?





:roll: :roll:

[ShawkFactory]

lebron sabotages teams when he isnt the main man winning the fmvp. he threw the series in 2011

and you think lebron would be happy doing it 4 times with shaq?





:roll: :roll:
He would be just fine doing that, yes.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

so shaq does f*ck all with

- nick anderson averaging 20 ppg
- penny hardaway averaging 22 ppg
- eddie jones averaging 18 ppg
- dwyane wade averaging 24 ppg
- amare stoudemire averaging 25 ppg
- lebron james averaging 29 ppg
- paul pierce averaging 19 ppg


needs wade to average 34 ppg in the finals to shaqs 13 ppg just to get a ring without kobe


and people think shaq can win with anyone


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Shaq won a title with his second best player, Kobe, being outscored by Austin Croshere.

Your post makes no sense. :oldlol:

[Rocketswin2013]

LeBron and Wade make those teams cumulatively better from 00-02 in their primes, but I don't know if they just....definitely 3-peat. Obviously impossible to know, and Shaq was absolute dogshit in several pivotal games. Look at the '00 WCF G7 in his peak. Disgraceful big game performance. The more I look into O'Neal's career and context, the less impressed I am. I've gone on record with saying he virtually unstoppable in his peak, but that was an off-season hyperbole thread for fun...

[Donkey4trading]

people just love to forget that Kobe led the entire league in playoff 4th quarter scoring for 01 & 02

also people love to forget that in the 01 playoffs Shaq led the team in scoring 8 times. But Kobe also led the team in scoring for 8 games.

then in 2002, Shaq led the team in scoring 9 times in the playoffs but Kobe led the team in scoring 10 times..

yet Shaq gets all the credit and Kobe could have been replaced by anybody :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[kennethgriffin]

Shaq won a title with his second best player, Kobe, being outscored by Austin Croshere.

Your post makes no sense. :oldlol:

kobe averaged 19ppg in that series... the game he scored 2 points due to an injury is the reason his average dipped


and please do a bit of research on nba history before saying "shaq without kobe wins a 2000 nba title.. considering without kobe there IS NO 2000 NBA FINALS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhNN920v6ss


shaq nearly choked it all away


Kobe leading scorer, rebounder, assists, blocks in game 7 WCF


down 15 in the 4th quarter. kobe saved shaqs legacy




Points: Kobe 25 - Shaq 18
Rebounds: Kobe 11 - Shaq 9
Assists: Kobe 7 - Shaq 5
Blocks: Kobe 4 - Shaq 1





https://jarrodpeterson4.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/1483167_crop_340x234.jpg

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

kobe averaged 19ppg in that series... the game he scored 2 points due to an injury is the reason his average dipped

The Lakers, with Shaq's 40/24/4/3, won that game Kobe had just 2 points in.

How do you not realize you're making my point? :oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

The Lakers, with Shaq's 40/24/4/3, won that game Kobe had just 2 points in.

How do you not realize you're making my point? :oldlol:

kobe is the reason theres a 2000 nba finals


and everyone knows the real finals was the WCF vs portland

kobe having a magic johnson 1980 type game... saving the season in the deciding game


kobe ray allen'd that title for shaq

[Donkey4trading]

The Lakers, with Shaq's 40/24/4/3, won that game Kobe had just 2 points in.

How do you not realize you're making my point? :oldlol:

why are you ignoring his comments on the pivotal game 7 which Kobe outplayed Shaq in every way imaginable..

and Kobe won a finals game in 2000 when Shaq with Shaq on the bench..

[kennethgriffin]

its weird how i've discussed this subject 1000's of times on ISH with the same posters and they still after all this time seem to need a reminder of what happened back in 2000, 2001 and 2002


we present the facts. the stats. the key games.

yet a day later the knowledge we gifted them seems to slip away


:lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

why are you ignoring his comments on the pivotal game 7 which Kobe outplayed Shaq in every way imaginable..

and Kobe won a finals game in 2000 when Shaq with Shaq on the bench..

Why are you coming in here, like a little bitch, acting like you know what's going on? Read the thread and understand the context in which this debate is centered on.

:confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

Why are you coming in here, like a little bitch, acting like you know what's going on? Read the thread and understand the context in which this debate is centered on.

:confusedshrug:

honest question. how many times have you discussed the 3 peat lakers playoffs and what kobe/shaq did

just on ISH since you joined


i'm guessing once every 3 days since 2009 right?



yet you still seem dumbfounded when people tell you things

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

kobe is the reason theres a 2000 nba finals


and everyone knows the real finals was the WCF vs portland

kobe having a magic johnson 1980 type game... saving the season in the deciding game
[/B]

kobe ray allen'd that title for shaq


Shaq won a title with a second option that was statistically outplayed by Austin Croshere.

The post I originally quoted from you therefor is unequivocally debunked. Any questions? :confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

Shaq won a title with a second option that was statistically outplayed by Austin Croshere.

The post I originally quoted from you therefor is unequivocally debunked.


man please. just stop. we've had this discussion 10000 times. you're obviously clinically insane or of special needs

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

man please. just stop. we've had this discussion 10000 times. you're obviously clinically insane or of special needs


Says the guy who refuses to admit he's wrong.

I slapped you silly. Admit it.

[Donkey4trading]

Why are you coming in here, like a little bitch, acting like you know what's going on? Read the thread and understand the context in which this debate is centered on.

:confusedshrug:

wow sensitive much :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: I simply asked you why you dodged his point about game 7 of the WCF.. no need to be an asshole about it..

I've read through the thread, just a bunch of people listing players who they think could have 3peated with no explanation as to why, including some guy claiming first team all nba Kobe wasn't a top 10 player in 2002..

[kennethgriffin]

Says the guy who refuses to admit he's wrong.

I slapped you silly. Admit it.


yes shaq dominated the finals

but that series wasnt even one of the 2 toughest matchups the lakers had that year

and kobe won them their most important game of the entire playoff run


game 7 WCF was basically the end all be all game. it won them the title


kobe made it happen


shaq just stat padded against smits in a meaningless series from a leastern conference rep nobody cared about



you know these facts... you know kobe also had a big game 1, game 4 and game 6..

stats practically get cut in half when youre taken out of the first 2 minutes

you know all these facts. you've seen the tape. you're just in denial because of some deep seeded self conscious insecurity over something about kobe bryant that you make it your lifes mission to bring him down

youre an unfulfilled lebron stan. its ok. its not your fault hes 2 for 6


keep trying to bring kobe down to lechokes level. itel never happen

but keep trying

[Donkey4trading]

Shaq won a title with a second option that was statistically outplayed by Austin Croshere.




you're in the other thread talking about how saying Shaq didn't win without Kobe is "being stupid and trolling"

and then here you are with this drivel in this thread, and you continue to ignore this dude's point about how there wouldn't even be a finals without Kobe outplaying Shaq in the 2000 WCF

:roll: :roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

yes shaq dominated the finals

but that series wasnt even one of the 2 toughest matchups the lakers had that year

and kobe won them their most important game of the entire playoff run


game 7 WCF was basically the end all be all game. it won them the title


kobe made it happen


shaq just stat padded against smits in a meaningless series from a leastern conference rep nobody cared about



you know these facts... you know kobe also had a big game 1, game 4 and game 6..

stats practically get cut in half when youre taken out of the first 2 minutes

you know all these facts. you've seen the tape. you're just in denial because of some deep seeded self conscious insecurity over something about kobe bryant that you make it your lifes mission to bring him down

youre an unfulfilled lebron stan. its ok. its not your fault hes 2 for 6


keep trying to bring kobe down to lechokes level. itel never happen

but keep trying


:blah :blah :blah

You're only NOW providing context when just a page ago, you claimed Shaq "needed" Wade's dominant finals to win a championship. :oldlol:

You have no leg to stand on. Kobe's putrid 2000 finals, as Shaq's sidekick, was the proverbial nail in the coffin. :oldlol:


wow sensitive much :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: I simply asked you why you dodged his point about game 7 of the WCF.. no need to be an asshole about it..

I've read through the thread, just a bunch of people listing players who they think could have 3peated with no explanation as to why, including some guy claiming first team all nba Kobe wasn't a top 10 player in 2002..


you're in the other thread talking about how saying Shaq didn't win without Kobe is "being stupid and trolling"

and then here you are with this drivel in this thread, and you continue to ignore this dude's point about how there wouldn't even be a finals without Kobe outplaying Shaq in the 2000 WCF

:roll: :roll:

So apparently this clown STILL hasn't read the last 2 pages of this thread, and yet continues to reply with some strange fanboy diplomacy talk.

I implore you to read the thread once more. Maybe your comprehension will improve some? :confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

:blah :blah :blah

You're only NOW providing context when just a page ago, you claimed Shaq "needed" Wade's dominant finals to win a championship. :oldlol:

You have no leg to stand on. Kobe's putrid 2000 finals, as Shaq's sidekick, was the proverbial nail in the coffin. :oldlol:





So apparently this clown STILL hasn't read the last 2 pages of this thread, and yet continues to reply with some strange fanboy diplomacy talk.

I implore you to read the thread once more. Maybe your comprehension will improve some? :confusedshrug:





when was the other time shaq won without kobe

are you high?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

when was the other time shaq won without kobe

are you high?

So with all the players in series who allegedly helped Shaq, and still couldn't win a title with, why did he THEN win a chip with Kobe, who was the equivalent of a role player?

:confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

So with all the players in series who allegedly helped Shaq, and still couldn't win a title with, why did he THEN win a chip with Kobe, who was the equivalent of a role player?

:confusedshrug:


because kobe carried shaq past the most dominant teams

2000 portland
2001-2002 sacramento, sanantonio etc...


was kobe a role player when he saved the season in 2000

was kobe a role player when he averaged 29/7/6 in 2001 or 27/6/5 in 2002 ?



if shaq carried wade in a game 7 ECF ... saving the season in 2006 before his low key finals PPG

and if the heat faced their toughest team in the WCF


then shaq would get credit for that ring

but he shat his pants in the finals. period


without kobe there is NO nba finals in 2000


game 7 WCF will go down as the day kobe saved shaqs career

[ShawkFactory]

because kobe carried shaq past the most dominant teams

2000 portland
2001-2002 sacramento, sanantonio etc...


was kobe a role player when he saved the season in 2000

was kobe a role player when he averaged 29/7/6 in 2001 or 27/6/5 in 2002 ?



if shaq carried wade in a game 7 ECF ... saving the season in 2006 before his low key finals PPG

and if the heat faced their toughest team in the WCF


then shaq would get credit for that ring

but he shat his pants in the finals. period


without kobe there is NO nba finals in 2000


game 7 WCF will go down as the day kobe saved shaqs career
Maybe in your corroded eyes :roll: :roll:

[kennethgriffin]

Maybe in your corroded eyes :roll: :roll:


ok... answer this


take kobe away. does shaq get to the finals in 2000?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

because kobe carried shaq past the most dominant teams

2000 portland
2001-2002 sacramento, sanantonio etc...

You can bring up other years and series (indiana was the #1 seed, and took the Lakers farther than the Spurs did in 2001 and 2002), but that doesn't answer the inherent question.

I'll ask again...

How does your OP explain Shaq winning a title and FMVP, in the 2000 finals, with Kobe performing like a role player?



was kobe a role player when he saved the season in 2000

was kobe a role player when he averaged 29/7/6 in 2001 or 27/6/5 in 2002 ?

2001 isn't relevant to 2000.



if shaq carried wade in a game 7 ECF ... saving the season in 2006 before his low key finals PPG

Shaq was out of his prime in 2006.

[tpols]

So with all the players in series who allegedly helped Shaq, and still couldn't win a title with, why did he THEN win a chip with Kobe, who was the equivalent of a role player?

:confusedshrug:

I don't think I've ever seen anyone call a player who made the All NBA team in a given year a role player.. kobe was a consensus top 10 player in the game in 2000.. I guess that was his role lol.

[ShawkFactory]

ok... answer this


take kobe away. does shaq get to the finals in 2000?
And replace him without another all-star level shooting guard? Sure.

And don't you find it odd that all those dominant teams that Kobe "carried" Shaq past had dominant front courts? Shaq is out there by himself against Sheed and Sabonis, Webber and Divac, Duncan and DRob, etc. Who's a dominant SG or small forward Kobe had to face?? ALL of those teams had huge and dominant front courts. It was the backbone of every one of those teams. And Shaq was able to neutralize them by himself. Would you expect 40/20 against Duncan and DRob? Of course not, but he sure can occupy the hell out of both of them.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone call a player who made the All NBA team in a given year a role player.. kobe was a consensus top 10 player in the game in 2000.. I guess that was his role lol.

In the 2000 finals? He was most definitely a role player. Not really sure how you could argue otherwise.

[guy]

needs wade to average 34 ppg in the finals to shaqs 13 ppg just to get a ring without kobe


and people think shaq can win with anyone


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Shaq was clearly out of his prime. You do realize that the fact that Shaq won a title with another elite wing player while he was nowhere near as productive and impactful as he was in his prime only SUPPORTS the claim that he would've won with any of those other wing players while he was in his prime right? :oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

And replace him without another all-star level shooting guard? Sure.

And don't you find it odd that all those dominant teams that Kobe "carried" Shaq past had dominant front courts? Shaq is out there by himself against Sheed and Sabonis, Webber and Divac, Duncan and DRob, etc. Who's a dominant SG or small forward Kobe had to face?? ALL of those teams had huge and dominant front courts. It was the backbone of every one of those teams. And Shaq was able to neutralize them by himself. Would you expect 40/20 against Duncan and DRob? Of course not, but he sure can occupy the hell out of both of them.



shaqs had countless allstar guards throughout his career you idiot

and just assuming any allstar guard can save game 7 of the WCF is almost as ludicrous as thinking anyone can average 29/7/6 in 2001 or 27/6/5 in 2002


do you have any idea how hard it is for 2 alpha's to co exist while both averaging nearly 30ppg


its kinda rare. infact kobe/shaq were the only 2 to be successful EVER at doing it

[kennethgriffin]

Shaq was clearly out of his prime. You do realize that the fact that Shaq won a title with another elite wing player while he was nowhere near as productive and impactful as he was in his prime only SUPPORTS the claim that he would've won with any of those other wing players while he was in his prime right? :oldlol:



shaq was in his prime in 1996, 1997, 1998

what happened on those stacked rosters?


no elite kobe = no title

period

shaq had his chances

[ShawkFactory]

shaqs had countless allstar guards throughout his career you idiot

and just assuming any allstar guard can save game 7 of the WCF is almost as ludicrous as thinking anyone can average 29/7/6 in 2001 or 27/6/5 in 2002


do you have any idea how hard it is for 2 alpha's to co exist while both averaging nearly 30ppg


its kinda rare. infact kobe/shaq were the only 2 to be successful EVER at doing it
He didn't have countless all star guards in 2000. Only Kobe. 2000 is not 1995. Nor is it 2001 or 2002. Don't know why you brought those years up. Well...I do...but whatever :lol

[CeilingFan#1]

None of those guys would 3peat in Kobe's place.

However, if you replaced Shaq with any of these in their prime:

Webber
Dirk
Duncan
KG
Brand
Gasol
Rasheed
Jermain O'Neal
Antwan Jamison

Kobe wins at least 2 rings. Probably more.

:roll:

[CeilingFan#1]

shaq was in his prime in 1996, 1997, 1998

what happened on those stacked rosters?


no elite kobe = no title

period

shaq had his chances

Phil Jackson >>>>>>>>>>>>> Del Harris & Brian Hill

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

shaq was in his prime in 1996, 1997, 1998

what happened on those stacked rosters?


no elite kobe = no title

period

shaq had his chances

Kobe wasn't elite in the 2000 finals versus the #1 ranked team in the East - a team who took LA farther than the 2001 and 2002 Spurs ever did.

Result? Shaq got a chip and FMVP. Thoughts? :confusedshrug:

[guy]

shaq was in his prime in 1996, 1997, 1998

what happened on those stacked rosters?


no elite kobe = no title

period

shaq had his chances

Well in 96 he lost to arguably the greatest team ever and in 97 and 98 he didn't have an elite wing player at all.

It's a more complicated sport then that. I'm not saying Shaq would've won all 3 with any elite wing player but the fact that he won with Wade while he was so much worse then his prime can't really be used against the argument. It only provides more evidence that he would've won with any other elite wing player. Just pointing out that you look pretty stupid when you bring that up.

[Bandito]

Just bold or say the one's that you feel could replace Kobe and help the Lakers 3peat. Or if you're really up for it, say how many titles you feel they'd win with each

VC
Allen
Durant
Iverson
Carmelo
Pierce
LeBron
CP3
Kidd
Parker
McGrady
Nash
Wade
Vc, Durant, Pierce, CP3,McGrady,Wade

He could 3peat with those. Is not a certainty as the role players have to be different for some players but they could win.

[3ball]

VC
Allen
Durant
Iverson
Carmelo
Pierce
LeBron
CP3
Kidd
Parker
McGrady
Nash
Wade


Only Wade, Durant, Lebron, and peak McGrady are comparable to Kobe.

However, although they're all comparable statistically as playmakers and scorers, only Kobe was ELITE in all areas and didn't rely too heavily on any one area (such as post, mid-range, on-ball, or off-ball).. Otoh, Wade and Lebron aren't elite off-ball or from mid-range, while Durant can't post - accordingly, they have to rely more heavily on one area and are more predictable.

For this reason, I don't think any of them would win all three.. A lot of those series against the Spurs and Kings were close, and they required Kobe's elite ability in all areas to win.

His greater capacity to mix it up was needed for superior chemistry with teammates, to exploit various defenses, and to avoid exploitability himself - Kobe's elite ability in all areas allowed the Lakers superior capacity to overcome a wider range of opponent strategies and also SUSTAINABILITY - they simply never fell off during that run, which is the most important thing for a team trying to 3-peat.. Btw, McGrady would never make it physically.. Durant neither.. I give them 1 ring, and Lebron/Wade 2.

Btw, one more thing... None of these guys are as stubborn as Kobe was - remember when he elbowed Bibby in the face on that inbounds play and damn-near broke Bibby's nose, and the ref called it on Bibby?... That was a series-deciding play - how many guys would just forearm Bibby in the face like that?.. Maybe Wade, but nobody else could take it that seriously or get mad like that.

[sdot_thadon]

Hell honestly, give kobe another run at it and I don't think he 3peats. The kings series was like a split decision in 2002. I don't think any of those guys could get bibby's face to foul their elbow the way kobe did.:oldlol:

But realistically Lebron, Durant, Wade, and Tmac could have all 3peat with shaq.(assuming health)
A few others could get at least one.

[Doranku]

Hell honestly, give kobe another run at it and I don't think he 3peats. The kings series was like a split decision in 2002. I don't think any of those guys could get bibby's face to foul their elbow the way kobe did.:oldlol:

But realistically Lebron, Durant, Wade, and Tmac could have all 3peat with shaq.(assuming health)
A few others could get at least one.

Nah man. The only one I could see is LeBron. The other three are way too injury prone to 3peat imo.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Hell honestly, give kobe another run at it and I don't think he 3peats. The kings series was like a split decision in 2002. I don't think any of those guys could get bibby's face to foul their elbow the way kobe did.:oldlol:

But realistically Lebron, Durant, Wade, and Tmac could have all 3peat with shaq.(assuming health)
A few others could get at least one.

lmao what kind of hater bullshit is this..


so the guy who actually did it couldn't do it :wtf: but these other guys could..??

:facepalm

[branslowski]

take away kobe and they dont win anything


none of those guys are guaranteeing

A) saving the 2000 nba title in 4th quarter of game 7 of the western confrence finals against a better team (25/11/7 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bJfE-REq5s

saving the nba finals in 2000 in game 4 with shaq fouled out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzmRk15I7g4 (28/4/5 )

among other great performances


B) averaging 40 against the spurs and 33ppg as a 2nd option through 3 western series and 30/7/6 overall in the playoffs in 2001

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HtbJFEzJM (45/10/3 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR3kpKk0mfA (48/16/3 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyfR2pDOt3k (36/9/8 )

among other great performances

C) saving the 2002 nba title in game 7 of the western confrence finals against a better team ( 30/10/7 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At-HE_rxDjc

among other great performances


take away kobe and 0 rings...

































/thread


This/

The amount of idiotic Kobe haters in this thread:facepalm

[Gotterdammerung]

Likely superstars, like LBJ or KD or Wade, could've threepeated with Lakers in 2000-02, if they all were Kobe's age. However I would submit the only player besides Jordan to exceed that threepeat in NBA history:

Oscar Robertson. He would've controlled the game at a higher level than anyone else, ever and be more demanding than Kobe out of Shaq. His credentials were unquestioned at that age, utterly dominant in all phases of the game, maintaining Shaq's respect and force Coach Jackson to adapt the triangle to his will.
The Big O would've destroyed opposing guards or forwards, with that all around play, and exploit Shaq's huge advantage in the middle every chance. His own numbers would be solid, but Shaq's would be even better.

[Nash]

Lebron offers whatever Kobe brought in scoring but also more rebounding and better playmaking.

all things same, Lebron would do whatever Kobe did and even better. He would probably even get 1 or 2 of those FMVP's as well since he would probably post close to triple double in the finals.

[ArbitraryWater]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTgObyJCQAA_Cdz.jpg

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTgObyJCQAA_Cdz.jpg

Shaq couldn't "win" without Kobe, yet Kobe f*cked around and was basically Austin Croshere's twin in that series. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq couldn't "win" without Kobe, yet Kobe f*cked around and was basically Austin Croshere's twin in that series. :oldlol:

his ugly twin

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

his ugly twin

http://s16.postimg.org/9eryqfpb9/052309_kobe_mean_face4.jpg

[HylianNightmare]

Tmac would

[tpols]

Tmac would

Tmac, kidd, and Durant are the only ones that would 3 peat with shaq.. rest are either poor fit, can't close, and/or don't have the disipline/attitude.

[JT123]

Tmac, kidd, and Durant are the only ones that would 3 peat with shaq.. rest are either poor fit, can't close, and/or don't have the disipline/attitude.
http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

[Smoke117]

lmao what kind of hater bullshit is this..


so the guy who actually did it couldn't do it :wtf: but these other guys could..??

:facepalm

:yaohappy:

[tpols]

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

Bron bro... really ?










http://static.tumblr.com/tpyfyig/oqtmf66zn/patnotstar.png

[Lensanity]

Lakers win in 2002 regardless of the roster because Stern would make sure of it.

[ShawkFactory]

Bron bro... really ?










http://static.tumblr.com/tpyfyig/oqtmf66zn/patnotstar.png
I mean...trolling aside, it's not ridiculous to say that Lebron could 3 peat with a peak
Shaq

Would it be automatic? I don't think so. Would it be possible? Very very much so.

[3ball]

The only one I could see is LeBron. The other three are way too injury prone to 3peat imo.


Nah... You guys are just looking at each player's respective status - i.e. "Lebron has the same or greater stature than Kobe, so he could do it."

However, I think it's important to consider how each guy would actually play alongside Shaq... Remember him?

Can Lebron play on a team where he doesn't play Lebron-ball?... He's virtually never done it...

Also, he employs a ball-dominant, point guard style - have you guys SEEN the triangle?... It doesn't use a point guard, and requires everyone to operate from a pre-dribble, stationary position most of the time - that's the virtual opposite of Lebron's ball-dominance..

Honestly, I've always wondered how Lebron's game would fit into the triangle and it hit me - it wouldn't.. And if Phil Jackson decided to scrap the triangle and play the less-winning Lebron-ball instead, they wouldn't win... and Shaq's stats would crater, just like very other post player does alongside Lebron.

[sdot_thadon]

lmao what kind of hater bullshit is this..


so the guy who actually did it couldn't do it :wtf: but these other guys could..??

:facepalm
So remind me, was the kings series in 2002 not one of the most controversial playoff matchups ever? I was rooting for the Lakers to win it that year but it was close man, no hate intended.


Nah man. The only one I could see is LeBron. The other three are way too injury prone to 3peat imo.
I can totally see that, my comment was assuming health. If their current injury histories intact then it gets alot more dicey.


Nah... You guys are just looking at each player's respective status - i.e. "Lebron has the same or greater stature than Kobe, so he could do it."

However, I think it's important to consider how each guy would actually play alongside Shaq... Remember him?

Can Lebron play on a team where he doesn't play Lebron-ball?... He's virtually never done it...

Also, he employs a ball-dominant, point guard style - have you guys SEEN the triangle?... It doesn't use a point guard, and requires everyone to operate from a pre-dribble, stationary position most of the time - that's the virtual opposite of Lebron's ball-dominance..

Honestly, I've always wondered how Lebron's game would fit into the triangle and it hit me - it wouldn't.. And if Phil Jackson decided to scrap the triangle and play the less-winning Lebron-ball instead, they wouldn't win... and Shaq's stats would crater, just like very other post player does alongside Lebron.

I don't believe you're thinking it through quite enough actually. None of these guys would come in as rookies and unsurp prime shaq as number 1 option, really no rookie ever perhaps. Lebron would come in and get to go against less defensive attention for his 1st few years, when he already feasted as a no. 1 early in his career. That's easy money.

Also about the triangle, you also have to assume that Phil brings the same guys in and they mentor lebron or whoever in the triangle as well. Scottie was brought in to sharpen kobe up, as well as conversations with Mj. These guys get all that along with playing for phil and tex. Lebron had more physical tools coming in and better passing instincts from the jump. He'd be fine.

[ShawkFactory]

So remind me, was the kings series in 2002 not one of the most controversial playoff matchups ever? I was rooting for the Lakers to win it that year but it was close man, no hate intended.


I can totally see that, my comment was assuming health. If their current injury histories intact then it gets alot more dicey.



I don't believe you're thinking it through quite enough actually. None of these guys would come in as rookies and unsurp prime shaq as number 1 option, really no rookie ever perhaps. Lebron would come in and get to go against less defensive attention for his 1st few years, when he already feasted as a no. 1 early in his career. That's easy money.

Also about the triangle, you also have to assume that Phil brings the same guys in and they mentor lebron or whoever in the triangle as well. Scottie was brought in to sharpen kobe up, as well as conversations with Mj. These guys get all that along with playing for phil and tex. Lebron had more physical tools coming in and better passing instincts from the jump. He'd be fine.
No one seems to understand this. Or at least acknowledge it.

Bron is an ATG talent. "Lebron-ball" is a product of his upbringing. Had his upbringing been with a guy like Phil Jackson...and with Shaq to dominate a lot of games...and with social media at a far lower level...

You're right. Bron would have been just fine. I feel like some people in their hatred and need for trolling forget about just how good of a basketball player the guy is. If he wasn't he wouldn't be talked about like he is from both sides.

[3ball]

Also about the triangle, you also have to assume that Phil brings the same guys in and they mentor lebron or whoever in the triangle as well. Scottie was brought in to sharpen kobe up, as well as conversations with Mj. These guys get all that along with playing for phil and tex. Lebron had more physical tools coming in and better passing instincts from the jump. He'd be fine.


Nah.. Lebron has been a point guard since high school and that's his natural position - that's where he differs from MJ and Kobe.. Gilbert Arenas spoke of it too - Lebron needs to be moving with a live dribble to be effective - that's his natural game and the triangle is designed to minimize this type of play (because it's suboptimal).

Whereas Kobe and MJ were different - point guard style was never their natural game, so they had superior capacity to play in the triangle than Lebron ever could..

I think Lebron would struggle mightily and be kind of a baby about learning the triangle - it requires guys to catch it on the post, turn-pivot, explore all the options - ALL WITHOUT DRIBBLING.. Lebron is NOT ELITE WHEN HE ISN'T ALREADY DRIBBLING.. All his stats and assists come in a point guard, live dribble capacity - take that capacity away, and he's not elite.

It would be a nightmare for him tbh - the triangle is simply the opposite of his natural game.. It might not have worked out at all.

[sdot_thadon]

No one seems to understand this. Or at least acknowledge it.

Bron is an ATG talent. "Lebron-ball" is a product of his upbringing. Had his upbringing been with a guy like Phil Jackson...and with Shaq to dominate a lot of games...and with social media at a far lower level...

You're right. Bron would have been just fine. I feel like some people in their hatred and need for trolling forget about just how good of a basketball player the guy is. If he wasn't he wouldn't be talked about like he is from both sides.
Exactly.:applause:


Nah.. Lebron has been a point guard since high school and that's his natural position - that's where he differs from MJ and Kobe.. Gilbert Arenas spoke of it too - Lebron needs to be moving with a live dribble to be effective - that's his natural game and the triangle is designed to minimize this type of play (because it's suboptimal).

Whereas Kobe and MJ were different - point guard style was never their natural game, so they had superior capacity to play in the triangle than Lebron ever could..

I think Lebron would struggle mightily and be kind of a baby about learning the triangle - it requires guys to catch it on the post, turn-pivot, explore all the options - ALL WITHOUT DRIBBLING.. Lebron is NOT ELITE WHEN HE ISN'T ALREADY DRIBBLING.. All his stats and assists come in a point guard, live dribble capacity - take that capacity away, and he's not elite.

It would be a nightmare for him tbh - the triangle is simply the opposite of his natural game.. It might not have worked out at all.

I don't agree, he's not a pg and he'd fill whatever role the team needed. Again, nobody is displacing Prime Shaq as no. 1. Especially no rookie. As a young player who idolized Mj as a kid like most of us, you think he wouldn't jump at the chance to play in same system? You have to remember Lebron plays the game the way he does becaude theres never been a better choice in his career, on any team save maybe 2011. you're stance is that Lebron doesn't possess the capacity to play in the triangle? Even though Ron Harper could, or Steve kerr, tonic kukoc, and countless others could? Sounds pretty fishy......

[3ball]

Even though Ron Harper could, or Steve kerr, tonic kukoc, and countless others could?


I'm sure he could average 8 ppg like Ron Harper or Kerr.... Or even 13 ppg like Kukoc.

I'm sure he could do that.. But he couldn't have Kobe-level effectiveness in the triangle, and obviously not MJ-level effectiveness.





You have to remember Lebron plays the game the way he does becaude theres never been a better choice in his career, on any team save maybe 2011.


The leading scorer on a team with a lesser supporting cast does NOT have to be a ball-dominating, PG-style player.

I'm surprised you can't see how wrong that is as you're writing it.

Just look at MJ - he led the league in scoring every year since his 2nd season as an off-ball player.
.

[sdot_thadon]

I'm sure he could average 8 ppg like Ron Harper or Kerr.... Or even 13 ppg like Kukoc.

I'm sure he could do that.. But he couldn't have Kobe-level effectiveness in the triangle, and obviously not MJ-level effectiveness.



The leading scorer on a team with a lesser supporting cast does NOT have to be a ball-dominating, PG-style player.

I'm surprised you can't see how wrong that is as you're writing it.

Just look at MJ - he led the league in scoring every year since his 2nd season as an off-ball player.
.
Ah, there it is. You never fail to deliver. He wouldn't be the leading scorer, that was Shaq's job. You're absolutely correct the leading scorer on a team doesn't have to be ball dominant. He doesn't have to take 25+ shots a game either but Mj did. You can't distinguish the difference between players. Obviously Lebron will play the game like no other because there's never been a guy like Lebron. He's the 1st one in league history.

Back on subject, nice derail attempt I might add. The triangle is not some foreign language nobody can figure out. You just need a bit of time and the right personel. Any high iq player can pick up the triangle unless you seem to think every single one of those triangle 1st, 2nd, 3rd options, role players etc. had a higher bball iq than Lebron?

Don't worry Lebron won't ever play for Phil and even get a chance to prove he can play the triangle better than Mj. Your crush is safe.:applause:

[aj1987]

kobe is the reason theres a 2000 nba finals


and everyone knows the real finals was the WCF vs portland

kobe having a magic johnson 1980 type game... saving the season in the deciding game
[/B]

kobe ray allen'd that title for shaq

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Kobe averaged 19.7 PPG on 43.2% outside the last game. With a chance to go 2-0, Kobe stunk it up and put up 12 points on 2-9 shooting. With a chance to close out the series in 5, Kobe put up 17 points on 4-13 shooting along with 6 TOV's and fouled out. Shaq still put up 31/21/3 in that Game 5. Essentially, if Kobe actually played, somewhat, decently, they would've won in 5 and would not have needed games 6/7. He did come up big in those two games though.


Just saying what I said in this thread already in the past, if you put those guys at the same age as Kobe was, they do not even win 2 titles in a row.

Lebron, Wade, Pierce at age 21 were not as good as Kobe at age 21.
Don't look at ages. Look at the seasons played. Wade wasn't even in the league at 21. He was still in college. '00-'02 would be Wade's '07-'09 seasons. He was injured in '07 and '08, but I still think he wins in '07 and '09 (which would be the '00 and '02 seasons).

For LeBron, it's the same seasons. He definitely 3peats with Shaq.

KD ('11-'13) wasn't as good as Kobe defensively. Not even close, but he was better offensively. I can see him winning in '00 and '02. Might 3peat. Might.

[Da_Realist]

3Ball made some valid points. Nobody else is thinking of it in terms of style of play. Maybe Lebron could have won with Shaq in the Triangle, but he wouldn't have been Lebron. He would have been a different player. And that player wouldn't have been as good as Kobe because the triangle was perfectly suited for Kobe's style of play where Lebron would have had to adapt. I certainly don't think they would have won 3 straight.

[kennethgriffin]

people dont understand how unbelievably rare it is for 2 mega stars to co exist and both get enough ppg each to carry 10 other bums


the 2000-2002 lakers werent deep. their 3rd best player was derek fisher after glen rice left


the lakers needed every point from both guys to get it done

both kobe and shaq had 30ppg for the 2nd title. both had 27ppg for the 3rd title



its hard just averaging that much when another guy is at 20ppg


lebrons average dipped to 25 when he had to let wade get 22ppg



for 2 guys to compliment each other like that its 1 in a million. no other 2 guys were successful in nba history doing it

west and baylor tried but failed every year

iverson and melo tried but failed

[tpols]

The only people that have bron 3 peat ing are his stans or kobe haters.. thinking you can just mash talent together without accounting for chemistry or fit.

They're just like bron in a way.. he thought he'd easily 3 peat when he joined wade and bosh.. Hell he was acting like even 4+ titles would happen, like it's that easy. It's not.. especially early 00s west, seeing the spurs year in and year out who have brons number and the personal to guard shaq.. the spurs actually mightve had a good shot of 3 peat ing in this hypothetical

[ArbitraryWater]

3Ball made some valid points. Nobody else is thinking of it in terms of style of play. Maybe Lebron could have won with Shaq in the Triangle, but he wouldn't have been Lebron. He would have been a different player. And that player wouldn't have been as good as Kobe because the triangle was perfectly suited for Kobe's style of play where Lebron would have had to adapt. I certainly don't think they would have won 3 straight.

How the mighty posters have fallen from grace

[guy]

3Ball made some valid points. Nobody else is thinking of it in terms of style of play. Maybe Lebron could have won with Shaq in the Triangle, but he wouldn't have been Lebron. He would have been a different player. And that player wouldn't have been as good as Kobe because the triangle was perfectly suited for Kobe's style of play where Lebron would have had to adapt. I certainly don't think they would have won 3 straight.

Right. It's also somewhat of a ridiculous hypothetical if we are looking that deep into it. What's the point if we are basically assuming Lebron and everyone else on that list develop into completely different players. They aren't who we know them by then. They are completely different players.

Furthermore, if we are looking that deep into it, you would also have to take into account that maybe the Lakers don't hire Phil then. Lebron's strength from the beginning always came from when the ball was in his hands. They may have not felt that Phil was the right fit then.

[Bandito]

The only people that have bron 3 peat ing are his stans or kobe haters.. thinking you can just mash talent together without accounting for chemistry or fit.

They're just like bron in a way.. he thought he'd easily 3 peat when he joined wade and bosh.. Hell he was acting like even 4+ titles would happen, like it's that easy. It's not.. especially early 00s west, seeing the spurs year in and year out who have brons number and the personal to guard shaq.. the spurs actually mightve had a good shot of 3 peat ing in this hypothetical
Youre one of the few people with common sense. :/

[ArbitraryWater]

Right. It's also somewhat of a ridiculous hypothetical if we are looking that deep into it. What's the point if we are basically assuming Lebron and everyone else on that list develop into completely different players. They aren't who we know them by then. They are completely different players.

Furthermore, if we are looking that deep into it, you would also have to take into account that maybe the Lakers don't hire Phil then. Lebron's strength from the beginning always came from when the ball was in his hands. They may have not felt that Phil was the right fit then.

didn't Xerxes correct/educate you on this? How do you repeat the same garbage?

[guy]

didn't Xerxes correct/educate you on this? How do you repeat the same garbage?

Huh???? What the **** are you talking about? Sorry, I don't monitor every thread on insidehoops. Make a point instead of referring to some random post.

[aj1987]

The only people that have bron 3 peat ing are his stans or kobe haters.. thinking you can just mash talent together without accounting for chemistry or fit.

They're just like bron in a way.. he thought he'd easily 3 peat when he joined wade and bosh.. Hell he was acting like even 4+ titles would happen, like it's that easy. It's not.. especially early 00s west, seeing the spurs year in and year out who have brons number and the personal to guard shaq.. the spurs actually mightve had a good shot of 3 peat ing in this hypothetical
:facepalm

Dumb post. Sure, LeBron choked HARD in '11, but aren't you forgetting that in '12 and '13, Wade was injured and Bosh was injured in '12 and played like a scrub in '13?

'00-'02 Shaq > '12-'14 Wade + Bosh

LeBron basically led the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, etc. on several occasions. In the RS and the PO's.

[tpols]

'00-'02 Shaq > '12-'14 Wade + Bosh

.

this is exactly what I'm talking about.. I mention chemistry/fit/competition ~ context/explanation in general, not just mashing talent together with reasoning like a child, and you come back with this.

It's like.. you did the exact thing I said you would lol

[aj1987]

this is exactly what I'm talking about.. I mention chemistry/fit/competition ~ context/explanation in general, not just mashing talent together with reasoning like a child, and you come back with this.

It's like.. you did the exact thing I said you would lol
And why do you think that Shaq and LeBron wouldn't fit together? Shaq is an absolute alpha and LeBron is absolutely unselfish. Put rookie LeBron on the Lakers in Kobe's place and by '00 they won't have enough chemistry to win?

[tpols]

And why do you think that Shaq and LeBron wouldn't fit together? Shaq is an absolute alpha and LeBron is absolutely unselfish. Put rookie LeBron on the Lakers in Kobe's place and by '00 they won't have enough chemistry to win?

They could have very good chemistry but i don't know if it could be with the triangle.. like others have said bron loves to utilize a heavy live dribble.. how is that optimal when you have shaq down low sealing guys off for dunks. It's great when his teammates are average offensively but in this case it's very suboptimal. He would have to totally revamp his game


And thats not even counting when it's the 4th quarter down stretch of tight playoff games against the spurs, kings, etc.. shaq's brick ing fts and in foul trouble, no layups given up by smart teams led by pop and adelman forcing a young bron with a weak jumper to shoot... we've seen multiple times he can't do this to those teams at a high level much less keep it up for 3 straight years on them

[aj1987]

They could have very good chemistry but i don't know if it could be with the triangle.. like others have said bron loves to utilize a heavy live dribble.. how is that optimal when you have shaq down low sealing guys off for dunks. It's great when his teammates are average offensively but in this case it's very suboptimal. He would have to totally revamp his game

And thats not even counting when it's the 4th quarter down stretch of tight playoff games against the spurs, kings, etc.. shaq's brick ing fts and in foul trouble, no layups given up by smart teams led by pop and adelman forcing a young bron with a weak jumper to shoot... we've seen multiple times he can't do this to those teams at a high level much less keep it up for 3 straight years on them
Again, this is rookie LeBron we're talking about. Won't 3 seasons be enough to iron out all the kinks? LeBron will also be working with the GOAT coach during the 3peat. Dude carried scrub coaches for years. Never even worked with a HOF level coach and he managed to end up in the top 10 by his 12th season.

Kobe wasn't a good shooter either. Dude averaged 31.4% on 2.3 3's a game over his first 6 years. LeBron was at 32.8% on 4.1 3's a game.

In '01, Kobe hit 33.6% of his jumpers and 40.1% in '02. LeBron was at 33.2% in '08 and 36.9% in '09. Pretty similar. Volume was similar as well. LeBron was doing this while he was the defense's primary focus. Imagine what he would do when he's next to Shaq who's commanding doubles and triples almost every play. Leave prime LeBron open and he's taking it to the hoop for a guaranteed bucket. Double him and he's dumping it to Shaq or to a 3pt shooter.

Shaq also made almost all his FT's when it actually mattered. Heck, even in '06 Finals, he was icing FT's at the end of games.

Yeah, LeBron would, without a doubt, 3peat. A possible 4peat as well, considering '10 ('04) was one of LeBron's best seasons.

[HOoopCityJones]

Shaq couldn't "win" without Kobe, yet Kobe f*cked around and was basically Austin Croshere's twin in that series. :oldlol:

Did Austin miss games in the series and play on bum ankle too?

[aj1987]

Did Austin miss games in the series and play on bum ankle too?
He played like 11 fewer MPG than Kobe and almost outscored him.

[Da_Realist]

I think Lebron would have a problem playing in such an equal opportunity offense. His game doesn't translate well to that. That's not just "kinks", that goes down to the fundamental part of his game. Something he's been comfortable with since he was a kid. Even if he was able to adjust, he wouldn't be as good in that offense as someone that fundamentally excels at the things the Triangle values most. Ball movement, player movement, making quick decisions, quick strikes within the offense, when a hole develops, etc. Those catch-n-shoot opportunities Kobe took advantage of kept the offense fluid, unpredictable and still kept him as a potent threat to score at any point (i.e. even when he didn't have the ball, the defense had to prepare because he could catch, shoot and score within seconds). Lebron needs the ball and he needs time to survey the defense.

He could have won but the team would have been different and it wouldn't have been as good, imo.

[Dbrog]

I can't believe some of these responses :facepalm

People laughing at Tmac or Iverson being able putting up the same numbers as Kobe. Newsflash: These two guys have some of the highest scoring playoff runs since MJ. KD too. Lol @ people saying Wade couldn't do it when he did it as the number 1 option with past prime Shaq. The truth is about half the people on this list would have 3-peated.

lol also at the people saying tmac was never as good as Kobe when it was seen as a FACT back then that tmac was better. I suppose it lets me gauge posters' ages...that's about the only productive thing in this thread.

[Da_Realist]

I can't believe some of these responses :facepalm

People laughing at Tmac or Iverson being able putting up the same numbers as Kobe. Newsflash: These two guys have some of the highest scoring playoff runs since MJ. KD too. Lol @ people saying Wade couldn't do it when he did it as the number 1 option with past prime Shaq. The truth is about half the people on this list would have 3-peated.

lol also at the people saying tmac was never as good as Kobe when it was seen as a FACT back then that tmac was better. I suppose it lets me gauge posters' ages...that's about the only productive thing in this thread.

There was a comparison at TMac's peak but I personally never thought he was as good as Kobe. Kobe's game was more technically sound, more dynamic and explosive. And Kobe had more heart than TMac ever had.

[ArbitraryWater]

Huh???? What the **** are you talking about? Sorry, I don't monitor every thread on insidehoops. Make a point instead of referring to some random post.

He basically told you that its bullshit what you're spewing, since Bron actually never played on that level of a coach, and he'd react way differently to it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He basically told you that its bullshit what you're spewing, since Bron actually never played on that level of a coach, and he'd react way differently to it.

Yeah, I'm not sure LeBron could be the coach of his own team. Some of his basketball fundamentals aren't quite up to par... :lol

[Mr Feeny]

There was a comparison at TMac's peak but I personally never thought he was as good as Kobe. Kobe's game was more technically sound, more dynamic and explosive. And Kobe had more heart than TMac ever had.

Everything you mentioned on there is subjective tbf. If dynamic and explosive play is what count, then neither of them can touch Wade. And I'd venture to say that Wade has more heart than either TMAC or Kobe do. So does Allen Iverson. I think Lebron and Wade with prime Shaq would have been interesting. I personally don't see how Lebron with Shaq from 1998-2004 (basically Lebron's 2005-2011 seasons) don't win atleast 4-5 championships.

[Mr Feeny]

Right. It's also somewhat of a ridiculous hypothetical if we are looking that deep into it. What's the point if we are basically assuming Lebron and everyone else on that list develop into completely different players. They aren't who we know them by then. They are completely different players.

Furthermore, if we are looking that deep into it, you would also have to take into account that maybe the Lakers don't hire Phil then. Lebron's strength from the beginning always came from when the ball was in his hands. They may have not felt that Phil was the right fit then.

These are some really strange points. I don't even know where to begin to respond to some of this trite:biggums:

[Mr Feeny]

Again, this is rookie LeBron we're talking about. Won't 3 seasons be enough to iron out all the kinks? LeBron will also be working with the GOAT coach during the 3peat. Dude carried scrub coaches for years. Never even worked with a HOF level coach and he managed to end up in the top 10 by his 12th season.

Kobe wasn't a good shooter either. Dude averaged 31.4% on 2.3 3's a game over his first 6 years. LeBron was at 32.8% on 4.1 3's a game.

In '01, Kobe hit 33.6% of his jumpers and 40.1% in '02. LeBron was at 33.2% in '08 and 36.9% in '09. Pretty similar. Volume was similar as well. LeBron was doing this while he was the defense's primary focus. Imagine what he would do when he's next to Shaq who's commanding doubles and triples almost every play. Leave prime LeBron open and he's taking it to the hoop for a guaranteed bucket. Double him and he's dumping it to Shaq or to a 3pt shooter.

Shaq also made almost all his FT's when it actually mattered. Heck, even in '06 Finals, he was icing FT's at the end of games.

Yeah, LeBron would, without, a doubt 3peat. A possible 4peat as well, considering '10 ('04) was one of LeBron's best seasons.

Agree on the last point. I said the same thing. How those two don't win atleast 5 is beyond me. Lebron has lead scrubs to finals. Scrubs. We're talking Shaq and Lebron in the same team.

[Da_Realist]

Everything you mentioned on there is subjective tbf. If dynamic and explosive play is what count, then neither of them can touch Wade. And I'd venture to say that Wade has more heart than either TMAC or Kobe do. So does Allen Iverson.

Wade -- not as good off-ball nor does he have as good of a jumpshot as Kobe.

Iverson -- not as good off-ball, is shorter by about 6 or 7 inches and no post game

When I say Kobe was more dynamic, I mean he had more variety in his game. Which I think his career has proven. He could drive, pull up, post up and shoot over either shoulder, could catch-n-shoot and had pretty good range. The defense had to pay attention as soon as he crossed half-court. He could score with or without dominating the ball. This is what I mean by dynamic.

You could live with giving Wade the jumpshot. He may beat you with it sometimes but you could live with it. You really had no way to play Kobe. Just hope his ego will prompt him to bail you out with hero-ball. Fundamentally speaking, Kobe was a more potent offensive player.

[Da_Realist]

Agree on the last point. I said the same thing. How those two don't win atleast 5 is beyond me. Lebron has lead scrubs to finals. Scrubs. We're talking Shaq and Lebron in the same team.

Leading scrubs and playing with great teammates is a totally different thing. Just because you can do one doesn't mean you can do the other at the same level. You could lead scrubs to the Finals every year and don't do nearly as well with more talented teammates.

[tpols]

Kobe wasn't a good shooter either. Dude averaged 31.4% on 2.3 3's a game over his first 6 years. LeBron was at 32.8% on 4.1 3's a game.

trying to quantify 'shooting' by solely using 3 pt % is like quantifying defense with only blocks and steals. There's whole other dimensions to the term. Namely, the mid range, which is very critical for the triangle.

Kobe 01-03 (there's no data for 00 unfortunately)

44% of Kobe's volume was in the 10-16, and 16-23 ft range
40% mid range efficiency

Young, early prime Bron 07-09

34% of Bron's volume was in noted above range
33% mid range efficiency


Notably worse, but the real truth is in the distribution...

Lebron shoots (for above time range)

70% at the rim
31% 3-10 ft
27% 10-16 ft
37% 16-23 ft
30% 3 pt range

Notice how his game is very dominant in two areas.. around the rim, and from long range right around the 3 pt line. But his in between game is almost non existant. His game is like a horseshoe high on two ends weak in the middle.

Now let's look at Kobe's...

58% at the rim
43% 3-10 ft
43% 10-16 ft
37% 16-23 ft
37% 3 pt range

As you can see Kobe's in between game is WORLDS better than Lebron's. Look how smooth that distribution is. Aside from the two extremes, far and close, everything inbetween Kobe just.. absolutely wrecks him.


Now, Lebron's game is fine for todays 3 pt or run at the rim era style offenses but for the triangle, a passing, posting offense centered around the in between game it is a terrible fit.






Imagine what he would do when he's next to Shaq who's commanding doubles and triples almost every play. Leave prime LeBron open and he's taking it to the hoop for a guaranteed bucket. Double him and he's dumping it to Shaq or to a 3pt shooter.



http://giant.gfycat.com/PlasticBlackandwhiteFinch.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

Yeah, I'm not sure LeBron could be the coach of his own team. Some of his basketball fundamentals aren't quite up to par... :lol

oh oops

--

2004 Bron >>> 97 Kobe
2005 Bron >>> 98 Kobe
2006 Bron >>> 99 Kobe
2007 Bron >> 2000 Kobe
2001 Kobe > 2008 Bron
2009 Bron >>>> 2002 Kobe
2010 Bron >> 2003 Kobe
2011 Bron >> 2004 Kobe

2004 Wade >>> 97 Kobe
2005 Wade >>> 98 Kobe
2006 Wade >>> 99 Kobe
2007 Wade >> 2000 Kobe
2001 Kobe >>> 2008 Wade (injury year)
2009 Wade >>>> 2002 Kobe
2010 Wade >> 2003 Kobe
2011 Wade >> 2004 Kobe

Anyone gonna dispute this?

Straight off the bat Wade/Bron were much better players.

[Heavincent]

Wade -- not as good off-ball nor does he have as good of a jumpshot as Kobe.

Iverson -- not as good off-ball, is shorter by about 6 or 7 inches and no post game

When I say Kobe was more dynamic, I mean he had more variety in his game. Which I think his career has proven. He could drive, pull up, post up and shoot over either shoulder, could catch-n-shoot and had pretty good range. The defense had to pay attention as soon as he crossed half-court. He could score with or without dominating the ball. This is what I mean by dynamic.

You could live with giving Wade the jumpshot. He may beat you with it sometimes but you could live with it. You really had no way to play Kobe. Just hope his ego will prompt him to bail you out with hero-ball. Fundamentally speaking, Kobe was a more potent offensive player.

Well said.

[tpols]

Kobe in the playoffs is more efficient from every spot on the floor than Lebron.. 3-10 ft, 10-16 ft, 16-23 ft, and 3 pt range.

The only area where Lebron beats Kobe is at the rim.. the space shaq of course would be heavily occupying.



This is why Lebron's game is much more exploitable.. he has a few very heavy strengths and a couple glaring holes, while Kobe has consistently high percentages across every range.. there's no sub-optimal spot on the floor you can push him to.. tbh, Kobe has beat himself more than any opponent ever really has.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe in the playoffs is more efficient from every spot on the floor than Lebron.. 3-10 ft, 10-16 ft, 16-23 ft, and 3 pt range.

The only area where Lebron beats Kobe is at the rim.. the space shaq of course would be heavily occupying.



This is why Lebron's game is much more exploitable.. he has a few very heavy strengths and a couple glaring holes, while Kobe has consistently high percentages across every range.. there's no sub-optimal spot on the floor you can push him to.. tbh, Kobe has beat himself more than any opponent ever really has.

hmm, but when exactly does this exploiting take place? Considering Bron scores on better efficiency, rebounding more, playmaking more, etc. in game 7's, elimination games, last few minutes, last second shots, finals, playoffs overall...... just when you think the exploting should just about be ready to start, Kobe still can't deliver on LeBron's frequent basis :confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

trying to quantify 'shooting' by solely using 3 pt % is like quantifying defense with only blocks and steals. There's whole other dimensions to the term. Namely, the mid range, which is very critical for the triangle.

Kobe 01-03 (there's no data for 00 unfortunately)

44% of Kobe's volume was in the 10-16, and 16-23 ft range
40% mid range efficiency

Young, early prime Bron 07-09

34% of Bron's volume was in noted above range
33% mid range efficiency


Notably worse, but the real truth is in the distribution...

Lebron shoots (for above time range)

70% at the rim
31% 3-10 ft
27% 10-16 ft
37% 16-23 ft
30% 3 pt range

Notice how his game is very dominant in two areas.. around the rim, and from long range right around the 3 pt line. But his in between game is almost non existant. His game is like a horseshoe high on two ends weak in the middle.

Now let's look at Kobe's...

58% at the rim
43% 3-10 ft
43% 10-16 ft
37% 16-23 ft
37% 3 pt range

As you can see Kobe's in between game is WORLDS better than Lebron's. Look how smooth that distribution is. Aside from the two extremes, far and close, everything inbetween Kobe just.. absolutely wrecks him.


Now, Lebron's game is fine for todays 3 pt or run at the rim era style offenses but for the triangle, a passing, posting offense centered around the in between game it is a terrible fit.

:facepalm


In '01, Kobe hit 33.6% of his jumpers and 40.1% in '02. LeBron was at 33.2% in '08 and 36.9% in '09.

Also, where are you getting those numbers from?

From BB-Ref for the '07, '08, and '09 seasons for LeBron (for the seasons during which the Lakers 3peat):

0.5+, I'm rounding up and >0.4 rounding down

At rim - 72%
3-10 ft - 41%
10-16 ft - 31%
16 ft-3pt - 37%
3pt - 32%

Kobe during the 3peat ('01-'02, since '00 isn't available):

At rim - 62% (-10%)
3-10 ft - 44% (+3%)
10-16ft - 45% (+14%)
16 ft-3pt - 40% (+3%)
3pt - 32% - 30% (-2)

Overall, for those years,

LeBron on jumpers - 35%

Kobe on jumpers - 37%

Outside 10-16 ft, they're pretty much the same, when it comes to making shots outside the paint. ~18% of Kobe's shots account for the 10-16ft area. Overall, on jumpshots, Kobe is only 2% more efficient than LeBron. Oh, and LeBron is a significantly better and a more willing passer than Kobe. A bigger and worse mismatch for most of those defenders. LeBron was doing this while he was the defense's primary focus. Imagine what he would do when he's next to Shaq who's commanding doubles and triples almost every play. Leave prime LeBron open and he's taking it to the hoop for a guaranteed bucket. Double him and he's dumping it to Shaq or to a 3pt shooter.


Lets also not forget that PJ is the GOAT coach. Do you think he wouldn't make changes to fit LeBron better into the system?


http://giant.gfycat.com/PlasticBlackandwhiteFinch.gif

http://i.imgur.com/PcynOJt.gif

[tpols]

The numbers are 01-03 playoff kobe vs 07-09 playoff lebron

Kobe as compared to bron is

-12% at the rim
+12% 3-10 ft
+16% (:eek: ) 10-16 ft
Same % 16-23 ft
+7% 3 pt range

I love how you always just say 'jumpers' as if you're fooling anybody . a jumper can literally be from anywhere. The point is kobes in between game destroys lebron's.. hes lethal from every spot on the court which is a huge bonus in the triangle. You can't spin it any other way.

[tpols]

hmm, but when exactly does this exploiting take place?:

In the finals silly.

The only year it didn't happen was in 2012 when they ran into a team with a dumb ass coach. Pop Carlisle and Kerr played bron like a fiddle.

[aj1987]

The numbers are 01-03 playoff kobe vs 07-09 playoff lebron

Kobe as compared to bron is

-12% at the rim
+12% 3-10 ft
+16% (:eek: ) 10-16 ft
Same % 16-23 ft
+7% 3 pt range

I love how you always just say 'jumpers' as if you're fooling anybody . a jumper can literally be from anywhere. The point is kobes in between game destroys lebron's.. hes lethal from every spot on the court which is a huge bonus in the triangle. You can't spin it any other way.
I'm not. Kobe had a guy who was literally commanding triples and doubles on every play. LeBron was the main focus of the defense. No wonder Kobe shot better. I'm using RS, because it's a bit more even. When every defender on the other team doesn't try to shut down LeBron.

Why are you every using '03, BTW? Lakers didn't win shit that season.

Outside 10-16 ft, they're pretty much the same, when it comes to making shots outside the paint. ~18% of Kobe's shots account for the 10-16ft area. Overall, on jumpshots, Kobe is only 2% more efficient than LeBron. Oh, and LeBron is a significantly better and a more willing passer than Kobe. A bigger and worse mismatch for most of those defenders. LeBron was doing this while he was the defense's primary focus. Imagine what he would do when he's next to Shaq who's commanding doubles and triples almost every play. Leave prime LeBron open and he's taking it to the hoop for a guaranteed bucket. Double him and he's dumping it to Shaq or to a 3pt shooter.


Lets also not forget that PJ is the GOAT coach. Do you think he wouldn't make changes to fit LeBron better into the system?

From my previous post. ^^^

The only excuse you're giving is because Kobe is a "better" shooter (he was, but not my much). Ignoring the rest of the points I'm bringing up.

[tpols]

Teams already conceded shots to bron.. he didnt need shaq for it. Pop.. gave him wide open midrange looks. Spacing was never the issue with bron.. his in between game is just broke, whether open/contested whatever.

Kobe has maintained and even had some his best midrange playoffs without shaq.. being the one seeing the doubles himself. So that isn't the difference either. Kobe was hitting the same crazy fades with guys draped on him in 01 that he was in 09 or 10.

I'm trying to be nice but damn.. so much ignorance/trolling. I can't ether you any harder..

[TheMarkMadsen]

Teams already conceded shots to bron.. he didnt need shaq for it. Pop.. gave him wide open midrange looks. Spacing was never the issue with bron.. his in between game is just broke open/contested whatever.

Kobe has maintained and even had some his best midrange playoffs without shaq.. being the one seeing the doubles himself. So that isn't the difference either.

I'm trying to be nice but damn.. so much ignorance/trolling. I can't ether you any harder..

exactly this..

Kobe as the undisputed go to guy on the team put up better numbers on better efficiency than he ever did with Shaq on his team

[ArbitraryWater]

In the finals silly.

The only year it didn't happen was in 2012 when they ran into a team with a dumb ass coach. Pop Carlisle and Kerr played bron like a fiddle.

except how Bron 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 is better than any finals series outside of 2002 Kobe (which beats 2013) :lol

and Kobe being the most underwhelming/disappointing finals performer of ATG's ever

[SouBeachTalents]

except how Bron 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 is better than any finals series outside of 2002 Kobe (which beats 2013) :lol

and Kobe being the most underwhelming/disappointing finals performer of ATG's ever

That'd be Wilt. And Bird's career Finals numbers are below his regular standards too

[guy]

He basically told you that its bullshit what you're spewing, since Bron actually never played on that level of a coach, and he'd react way differently to it.

I already responded to that. Never heard back. If you're going to track everyone's posts on here, do a better job.

Anyway, that was completely irrelevant. My point was a big part of Lebron's hype when he first started was based on what he was able to do playing on-ball like an elite PG i.e. Playing like Magic Johnson. Well, you wouldn't put Magic in the triangle so there's a good chance they wouldn't want to put Lebron in the triangle. And with Phil, we know that's the only way he's going to coach. So there's a chance the Lakers wouldn't have wanted Phil.

My main point was if we are looking that deep into it like the previous poster was when talking about how he would've developed into a completely different player, we should also take that into account. And that just makes the hypothetical way too complex to even speculate.