Cool fact: Why MJ is the undisputed GOAT and who's right behind him

[Dragic4Life]

Michael Jordan had 7 straight seasons of the highest PER rating in the league. Only Wilt has done the same. Lebron James has the next best streak at 6.
Really puts things into perspective huh.:bowdown:

[Im Still Ballin]

It's the ultimate stat that exposes the real deals and the frauds. It's been scientifically proven by the team at ESPN laboratories.

One of the most notable frauds it exposes is Kobe. The stats just DON'T add up.

[nathanjizzle]

sorry but using algorithms to determine greatness is stupidity. there are tangibles that dont show up on the stat sheet. especially for jordan that is far beyond 7 to lebrons 6

[AnaheimLakers24]

6 > 5 = 5 >>>>>>>>>> 2*

[The Choken One]

KAJ

[Roundball_Rock]

sorry but using algorithms to determine greatness is stupidity. there are tangibles that dont show up on the stat sheet. especially for jordan that is far beyond 7 to lebrons 6

IBM had a best player award in the 90's. David Robinson was what the computer would spit out nearly every year...He was a great player but not as good as his statistics would suggest. I think he is 4th all-time in PER, and that is with having several role player seasons to drag down his career average at the end of his career.

KAJ actually has the record for leading the league in PER, doing so 9 times in his first 12 seasons. The three years he was not #1 he was #2. He led the league in PER 8 times during a 9 season stretch.

Top 10 all-time in PER

NBA
Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.79
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.59
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.29
9. Neil Johnston* 24.69
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63

KAJ is 11th due to his average going down later in his career. PER assumes 0 steals and 0 blocks for older era players like Wilt and KAJ's first years so their numbers are deflated...

[ottooooooo]

how can mj be the undisputed goat when hes goatness is so often in disputement?

[Marchesk]

Does anyone on ISH have Neil Johnston in their top 10?

[RRR3]

Does anyone on ISH have Neil Johnston in their top 10?
I definitely have him in my top Neils :applause:

[kennethgriffin]

IBM had a best player award in the 90's. David Robinson was what the computer would spit out nearly every year...He was a great player but not as good as his statistics would suggest. I think he is 4th all-time in PER, and that is with having several role player seasons to drag down his career average at the end of his career.

KAJ actually has the record for leading the league in PER, doing so 9 times in his first 12 seasons. The three years he was not #1 he was #2. He led the league in PER 8 times during a 9 season stretch.

Top 10 all-time in PER

NBA
Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.79
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.59
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.29
9. Neil Johnston* 24.69
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63

KAJ is 11th due to his average going down later in his career. PER assumes 0 steals and 0 blocks for older era players like Wilt and KAJ's first years so their numbers are deflated...

so people actually use PER to prop up guys. but then we find out neil johnston, dwyane wade, bob pettit, david robinson, chris paul and charles barkley are top 10 players all time using this formula

and doesnt pau gasol have a higher career PER than magic johnson?


:lol


i swear its like people just slap together a collection of things that average out to whatever they wanna push as their agenda

hollinger wanted to prop up lebron. that was his thing. so he put together a PER that made him look better than others.

little did he know it contradicted history































/thread

[JtotheIzzo]

I am gonna coin it here first. "Non-center GOAT" will be a new category so all the fanboys can diminish the achievements of Kareem and Russell and big up Kobe and LeBron.

[GimmeThat]

Jordan has 6 of the top 20 PER seasons.

so that easily puts him right there.



as for being undisputed.


if you can prove that having the highest PER by team equates to a championship

I agree.

[StephHamann]

NBA
Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.79
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.59
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.29
9. Neil Johnston* 24.69
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63



So Dirk beat two Top 10 players of all time in their prime? :biggums:

How great is our Dirk?

http://dailysnark.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/YSeh2xR.gif

[kennethgriffin]

So Dirk beat two Top 10 players of all time in their prime? :biggums:

How great is our Dirk?

http://dailysnark.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/YSeh2xR.gif

and lebron had the 8th best player all time as his side kick and got beat by some unranked dude :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan has 6 of the top 20 PER seasons.

so that easily puts him right there.

That is because PER assumes Wilt never stole the ball or blocked a shot. It also assumes KAJ never had a steal or block for his first four seasons.

As far as the top 20 seasons go here is the list:

Rank Player PER Season Tm

1. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.82 1962-63 SFW
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.74 1961-62 PHW
3. Michael Jordan* 31.71 1987-88 CHI
4. LeBron James 31.67 2008-09 CLE
5. Michael Jordan* 31.63 1990-91 CHI
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.63 1963-64 SFW
7. LeBron James 31.59 2012-13 MIA
8. Michael Jordan* 31.18 1989-90 CHI
9. Michael Jordan* 31.14 1988-89 CHI
10. LeBron James 31.11 2009-10 CLE
11. LeBron James 30.74 2011-12 MIA
12. David Robinson* 30.66 1993-94 SAS
13. Shaquille O'Neal 30.65 1999-00 LAL
14. Shaquille O'Neal 30.55 1998-99 LAL
15. Dwyane Wade 30.36 2008-09 MIA
16. Tracy McGrady 30.27 2002-03 ORL
17. Shaquille O'Neal 30.23 2000-01 LAL
18. Chris Paul 29.96 2008-09 NOH
19. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 29.94 1971-72 MIL
20. Michael Jordan* 29.78 1986-87 CHI

So LeBron has four of the eleven highest seasons and the best playoff run (Hakeem playing 4 games does not count).


and doesnt pau gasol have a higher career PER than magic johnson?

No, Magic is 14th in PER and Gasol is 37th. Here are the career PER's for active players:

Rank Player PER

1. LeBron James 27.79
2. Chris Paul 25.59
3. Dwyane Wade 25.29
4. Tim Duncan 24.56
5. Kevin Durant 24.53
6. Dirk Nowitzki 23.48
7. Kobe Bryant 23.36
8. Kevin Garnett 22.92
9. Dwight Howard 22.09
10. Amar'e Stoudemire 22.03
11. Pau Gasol 21.49
12. Manu Ginobili 21.46
13. Carmelo Anthony 21.17
14. Al Jefferson 20.84
15. Elton Brand 20.72
16. Chris Bosh 20.62
17. Paul Pierce 20.36
18. Vince Carter 20.03
19. LaMarcus Aldridge 19.98
20. Steve Nash 19.95

Boozer is 21st, Randolph 22nd.

[Purch]

Karl Malone was top 5 in per for 13 seasons straight.

http://proplayerinsiders.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/but-thats-none-of-my2.jpg

[knicksman]

At the end of the day, lebron losing proves that bran stans are the dumbest on this board.

[knicksman]

IBM had a best player award in the 90's. David Robinson was what the computer would spit out nearly every year...He was a great player but not as good as his statistics would suggest. I think he is 4th all-time in PER, and that is with having several role player seasons to drag down his career average at the end of his career.

KAJ actually has the record for leading the league in PER, doing so 9 times in his first 12 seasons. The three years he was not #1 he was #2. He led the league in PER 8 times during a 9 season stretch.

Top 10 all-time in PER

NBA
Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.79
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.59
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.29
9. Neil Johnston* 24.69
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63

KAJ is 11th due to his average going down later in his career. PER assumes 0 steals and 0 blocks for older era players like Wilt and KAJ's first years so their numbers are deflated...


goes to show that only idiots uses PER. Only 2 players in the top 10.

[the mesiah]

Does anyone on ISH have Neil Johnston in their top 10?
The question should be who DON'T have the nba champ,3 time scoring champ in their top 8..

[fpliii]

PER doesn't exist before 1977-78. You need all the stats in a box score to calculate it, and missing stats for seasons prior to 77-78 are zeroed out:


The calcuation of uPER obviously depends on these statistics, so here are my solutions for years when the data are missing:

Zero out three-point field goals, turnovers, blocked shots, and steals.
Set the league value of possession (VOP) equal to 1.
Set the defensive rebound percentage (DRB%) equal to 0.7.
Set player offensive rebounds (ORB) equal to 0.3 * TRB.

source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html

Looking at the PER formula, blocked shots and steals far outweigh turnovers, so had those stats been recorded, Wilt would destroy the stat.

PER is a shit stat in general, for reasons that have been explained on this site countless times.

Anyhow though, there is no "undisputed" GOAT, and there will never be.

[Roundball_Rock]

PER doesn't exist before 1977-78. You need all the stats in a box score to calculate it, and missing stats for seasons prior to 77-78 are zeroed out:



source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html

Looking at the PER formula, blocked shots and steals far outweigh turnovers, so had those stats been recorded, Wilt would destroy the stat.

PER is a shit stat in general, for reasons that have been explained on this site countless times.

Anyhow though, there is no "undisputed" GOAT, and there will never be.

:applause:

That is why it is funny people post PER to argue MJ over KAJ or Wilt. Had all the stats been counted then they would be ahead of MJ in their beloved stat.

[3ball]

Due to the changing rules and styles of play from era to era, stats achieved in one era could be easier or more difficult to achieve in another era - accordingly, the best way to compare players from different eras is the eye test.

When I compare Lebron to Jordan, I see a guy whose offensive repertoire is a fraction of Jordan's.. For example, see the hanging jumpshots below - you never see Lebron even attempt shots like this - for one, there are always open shots available in today's game due to the floor spacing caused by 3-point shooting, so Lebron doesn't NEED to take highly contested shots over multiple defenders - to me, this dilutes his stats compared to Jordan's, and Jordan's were already superior.

But even if Lebron did need to take shots like this, he wouldn't be able to - the only guy in the history of the game to attempt and convert shots like this on a consistent basis is Jordan - that's one reason I know he is the best.

Also, Jordan's era did not use the 3-point shot to space the floor, so as you can see below, the paint was always packed and there was NO spacing... The VERY REASON Jordan even attempted these shots was because the defense never extended out to the 3-point line in his era, so players HAD TO attempt shots in a more congested environment... without having to guard the 3-point line, the same 5 defenders guarded a smaller area causing players to take tougher shots on average than today - back then, there was no expectation of an open shot on every possession like there is in today's game (due to the spacing), which put downward pressure on efficiency that today's players don't have to deal with.

Any of these would be considered shots of horrific quality in today's game (midrange.. contested.. ugh)... but back then, not as much... mid-range contested shots were much more the norm, which made efficiency harder to come by.


Top 10 Hanging Jumpshots by MJ


10.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Baseline_Hangtime_Jumps_0208a631ff153e05f91 c5d22f0116056.gif knicks


9.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/More_Hangtime_from_Jordan_f0fb5275dad27843c3cc9792 b7c5a373.gif


8.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Much_Elevation_on_doubl_5e7983db33638ec7592 3fbd6ec57675a.gif


7.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Hangtime_Jumper_on_Ehlo_f1e46c7198411621cd3 2a9b0975872bf.gif


6.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/No_hangtime_like_Jordans_0dd6db619b8c6a7c785b93425 f5b59da.gif


5.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Super_Hangtime_Jumpshot_4068bc22668f5d466c0 9f6c775361299.gif


4.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Monster_Hangtime_vs_Cel_0258c960587084ddc92 3a2b465cbd531.gif


3.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/hangtime_turnaround_jumper_16e208dbfb2148eba149f19 e14a53d9e.gif


2.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Fadeaway_Hangtime_VS_En_f2e6935bf43334e8c5c 30c1b2b6489d8.gif


1.
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_best_hangtime_probably__86e032ab3379ef21ee0 7d7a493c922cc.gif


Similar to these very tough shots, the paint congestion of previous eras caused players to have to complete tougher DUNKS than today's players - see MJ'S TOP 15 DUNKS OVER MULTIPLE CONTESTING DEFENDERS here.. http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797...

or a partial collection of MJ dunks over all-time great centers here.. http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395