Why do people think Heat Shaq was second option?

[Akrazotile]

I should clarify to say second most important player, because obviously statistically based on FGA he was second "option" but what is the case that he was their second best player? In '04 Shaq got 58 first place MVP votes. Wade got zero.

In 05 neither of them got any first place MVP votes. Per 36 Shaq had 23/11 on 60%. Wade had 25/6 on 50%. Altho proportionally Wade is a better wing defender than Shaq is a paint defender, Shaq's paint defense was still more important overall.


At the very LEAST they were equally impactful. Why do people always categorize it as 1. Wade, 2. Shaq?

Is it because:

A) Wade had more total points and that's what impresses people most?
2) Media gave Wade FMVP (not that he didnt deserve but its ONE series)
D) People always overrate wings and underrate bigs?
$) They hear other people say it so they say it
X) They always have to have a batman and robin, their mind can't compute the thought of equal contributions


Watchu think, Willises? How was Wade the alpha when Shaq was literally a couple votes away from MVP during that era and Wade didn't get a single first place vote, and Shaq's 20pts on 60% plus still playing important D was the single most important thing for the Heat regardless of Wade's great perimeter play?

[dubeta]

Can someone please note Wade's teams win percentage without LeBron and Shaq?

its probably puke worthy

[tpols]

Shaq dominated against eastern teams as he always has.. he needed wade to carry him once real western competition emerged. Just what it is.

Shaq w/o Wade has 3 rings.. 0-1 rings w/o Kibe.

[navy]

The first year they were together you could make the case of Shaq being more important hence the MVP votes. Wade was only a sophomore at that time.

But anyone that watched the playoffs knew that Wade was clearly the alpha and better player.

[joe]

If I recall, The Mavericks shifted their defense to stop Shaq. Wade did a great job of making them pay, but it was clear in 2006 that Shaq was still a major threat

[jlip]

In '04 Shaq got 58 first place MVP votes. Wade got zero.

In 05 neither of them got any first place MVP votes.


I think you meant '05 and '06.

[navy]

If I recall, The Mavericks shifted their defense to stop Shaq. Wade did a great job of making them pay, but it was clear in 2006 that Shaq was still a major threat
No, Wade was the better player than Shaq in nearly every series they were together. Especially that Finals series.

This wasnt a case of Shaq and Kobe having comparable numbers and people talking about 1a and 1b.

[Akrazotile]

I think you meant '05 and '06.


The 04-05 and the 05-06 season

[navy]

04-05 playoffs
Wade 27/7/6 48%
Shaq 19/8/2 56%

05-06 Playoffs
Wade 28/6/6 50%
Shaq 18/10/2 61%

:confusedshrug:

Dont make me pull up Shaq's first option numbers.

[Akrazotile]

No, Wade was the better player than Shaq in nearly every series they were together. Especially that Finals series.

This wasnt a case of Shaq and Kobe having comparable numbers and people talking about 1a and 1b.


Wade had better numbers but that's not everything. Rip Hamilton had better numbers than Ben Wallace.

The paint is more important than the perimeter, that's just basic basketball info. Even if Wade had a slight side-by-side performance edge, it was close enough that by dominating the paint Shaq's was actually more meaningful.


I remember all the hulabaloo at the time over Wade's performance and thinking "Shaq is getting severely overlooked here. All the credit is going to Wade, but Shaq is still CLEARLY this team's primary advantage over others."


And IMO people always rank them as 1 and 2 so they can simply use it to make 'legacy' arguments when in fact, it's really just not possible to actually rank their importance. It's indistinguishable. You can make an argument for either one. But somehow it's been accepted apparently just due to repetition and the fact that giving Wade a "first option ring" and Shaq a "second option" ring makes for a more layered debate in each player's legacy.

Basically to sum up: I feel labeling Wade as the automatic Alph and Shaq as second fiddle is done more for narrative purposes than accurate hisotrical ones.

[fpliii]

Shaq was never really the second option at all from when he came into the league until 06 (fell off after that, though his longevity is underrated). Still, Wade (and earlier Kobe) took advantage of the coverage faced (and still went up against some tough defenders), and performed admirably a good deal. Can't hold it against them. MJ would be the second option to prime Shaq as well.

[zoom17]

http://www.thebroshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/miami8.jpg

[Akrazotile]

04-05 playoffs
Wade 27/7/6 48%
Shaq 19/8/2 56%

05-06 Playoffs
Wade 28/6/6 50%
Shaq 18/10/2 61%

:confusedshrug:

Dont make me pull up Shaq's first option numbers.


So basically Wade took more shots and that's it. And Shaq's defense was more important. And so your point is...

[navy]

Wade had better numbers but that's not everything. Rip Hamilton had better numbers than Ben Wallace.

The paint is more important than the perimeter, that's just basic basketball info. Even if Wade had a slight side-by-side performance edge, it was close enough that by dominating the paint Shaq's was actually more meaningful.

Where is the proof of this I might ask?

Wade and Shaq had near identical winshares and off/deff net ratings in 04-05. Wade was a sophomore I might add.

And in 05-06, it honestly wasnt even close. Wade obliterated everyone else on the team. Even Shaq.

[navy]

So basically Wade took more shots and that's it. And Shaq's defense was more important. And so your point is...
Again, I ask where is your proof of this?

Wade took more shots because Shaq was at the stage in his career where he could no longer create for himself effectively as much. Most Big Men go through this stage. Unless you think the Gameplan was to stop Shaq from scoring 30+ on high percentages like he use to. Hint: It wasnt.

[dubeta]

Can someone please note Wade's teams win percentage without LeBron and Shaq?

its probably puke worthy

Someone needs to post this

[navy]

Someone needs to post this
Does it really matter? Check the records for yourself.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/

Unless you think Wade was suppose to make it far with Udonis Haslem as his next best player.

[dubeta]

Does it really matter? Check the records for yourself.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/

Unless you think Wade was suppose to make it far with Udonis Haslem as his next best player.

if lebron can win 66 with mo willaims why cant wade win 50 with beasley and jermaine o' neal/shawn marion

[navy]

if lebron can win 66 with mo willaims why cant wade win 50 with beasley and jermaine o' neal/shawn marion
Because Lebron's teams were the number 1 or 2 defenses. :confusedshrug:

[Eric Cartman]

Shaq's game 6 in '06 against the Pistons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAoiywvqlM&hd=1

You tell me that looks like a second option to you.

[dubeta]

Shaq's game 6 in '06 against the Pistons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAoiywvqlM&hd=1

You tell me that looks like a second option to you.

Damn :eek:

Shaq really exposed Kobe and Wade as glorified sidekicks throughout his career

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq's game 6 in '06 against the Pistons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAoiywvqlM&hd=1

You tell me that looks like a second option to you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz5aHJFwc-k

Chris Bosh's Game 3 in the 2011 ECF against the Bulls

You tell me that looks like a third wheel to you

[plowking]

04-05 playoffs
Wade 27/7/6 48%
Shaq 19/8/2 56%

05-06 Playoffs
Wade 28/6/6 50%
Shaq 18/10/2 61%

:confusedshrug:

Dont make me pull up Shaq's first option numbers.

All that needs to be said.

[plowking]

So basically Wade took more shots and that's it. And Shaq's defense was more important. And so your point is...

Exactly. Just like this last playoffs. Lebron just took more shots than Wade, while he let Leonard win FMVP on him.

Bron and Wade were equal this last run.

[plowking]

Can someone please note Wade's teams win percentage without LeBron and Shaq?

its probably puke worthy

Wade has 1 ring without Bron, and Bron has none without Wade.

Is that what you mean by win percentage? As in, who won the whole league?

[tpols]

Wade has 1 ring without Bron, and Bron has none without Wade.

Is that what you mean by win percentage? As in, who won the whole league?

Stop.

We want win/loss rapms.

As well as advanced win share data.

And per 36 w/ and w/o's.

Only then can we make a reasonable judgement.

[SouBeachTalents]

Exactly. Just like this last playoffs. Lebron just took more shots than Wade, while he let Leonard win FMVP on him.

Bron and Wade were equal this last run.

:biggums: That's like saying LeBron and Wade were equal in the 2011 Finals

[boozehound]

I should clarify to say second most important player, because obviously statistically based on FGA he was second "option" but what is the case that he was their second best player? In '04 Shaq got 58 first place MVP votes. Wade got zero.

In 05 neither of them got any first place MVP votes. Per 36 Shaq had 23/11 on 60%. Wade had 25/6 on 50%. Altho proportionally Wade is a better wing defender than Shaq is a paint defender, Shaq's paint defense was still more important overall.


At the very LEAST they were equally impactful. Why do people always categorize it as 1. Wade, 2. Shaq?

Is it because:

A) Wade had more total points and that's what impresses people most?
2) Media gave Wade FMVP (not that he didnt deserve but its ONE series)
D) People always overrate wings and underrate bigs?
$) They hear other people say it so they say it
X) They always have to have a batman and robin, their mind can't compute the thought of equal contributions


Watchu think, Willises? How was Wade the alpha when Shaq was literally a couple votes away from MVP during that era and Wade didn't get a single first place vote, and Shaq's 20pts on 60% plus still playing important D was the single most important thing for the Heat regardless of Wade's great perimeter play?
IMO its D. the impact of bigs is massively underrated. Personally, I think shaq was probably more important. But people think scoring is the only part of the game that matters.

[Smoke117]

People who experienced those seasons don't. You do and are, so I guess you do? Everyone that isn't an idiot knows Shaq as MVP in 2001 and 2005. Honestly Shaqs dominance is so absurd it defines words. He was just unstoppable during his entire career till his joints, bones, etc gave out. I don't think I've ever hated a player more than shaq from 2000-2002...you just could not stop him. It wasn't some stupid fanboy love for a perimeter player or 2nd option..w/e...shaq was just unstoppable and we all ****ing hated him. I miss hating him. ha

[Eric Cartman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz5aHJFwc-k

Chris Bosh's Game 3 in the 2011 ECF against the Bulls

You tell me that looks like a third wheel to you

Third option? That looks like a top 10 player in the league. He was great that postseason too even the finals. Big 3 was awesome that year but surrounded by crappy players (mike bibby and joel anthony as your other 2 starters).

Hope we see Chris playing like that now that he is the man once again :rockon:

[chazzy]

It's that part of the offseason again

[And1AllDay]

You posted a few funny things in your OP, and I won't touch on all of them, just a few:

First off, did you see the 2006 NBA Finals series? Go watch it. And then log back into insidehoops.net and delete this thread.

Secondly, LOL @ bringing up their per 36 stats vs their, you know, regular full time in-game stats.

Shaq vs Wade 2006 playoff stats:

Shaq: 18/10/2/1.5 on 61% (amazing SECOND option)
Wade: 28/6/6/2/1 on 50% lol

[Akrazotile]

It's that part of the offseason again


The part where I shove my dick down your throat and go pee pee?


Yeah. It is that part.

[chazzy]

The part where I shove my dick down your throat and go pee pee?


Yeah. It is that part.
Damnn got me there

[SamuraiSWISH]

04-05 playoffs
Wade 27/7/6 48%
Shaq 19/8/2 56%

05-06 Playoffs
Wade 28/6/6 50%
Shaq 18/10/2 61%

Yup, stats prove it. Shaq / Wade were around equal during the 2005 season. Wade was comfortably better through out the 2005 playoffs. And if it wasn't for his injury in the conference finals, they could've competed for a championship.

[Akrazotile]

You posted a few funny things in your OP, and I won't touch on all of them, just a few:

First off, did you see the 2006 NBA Finals series? Go watch it. And then log back into insidehoops.net and delete this thread.

Secondly, LOL @ bringing up their per 36 stats vs their, you know, regular full time in-game stats.

Shaq vs Wade 2006 playoff stats:

Shaq: 18/10/2/1.5 on 61% (amazing SECOND option)
Wade: 28/6/6/2/1 on 50% lol

Any questions bud?


Nope, your name says it all.

When does Hot Sauce go on tour next?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Regardless of being a 1st option or not (imo Wade was, I guess that's the consensus) he was still very impactful and should be given plenty of credit for that title.

[Dragic4Life]

Can someone please note Wade's teams win percentage without LeBron and Shaq?

its probably puke worthy
This.

Wade is a ringless bum without Lebron and Shaq.

[BoutPractice]

I'm usually a proponent of bigs, but in this particular case, the main catalyst for the team was Wade... especially in 06.

In 05 it's very debatable, but I still have Wade as the more important player overall. In the regular season, Wade was the leading scorer, with 23 PER and exactly 11 win shares, while Shaq had 27 PER... and exactly 11 win shares. Wade played 4 more minutes per game and had a similar usage rate. Overall I would give a slight advantage to Shaq here, who was still a 23/10, two way center, and was 2nd in MVP while Wade was 8th... In the playoffs however Wade separated himself and was generally more dynamic/impactful: he raised his game proportionally to O'Neal regressing: 27, 6.5 and 6 and 24 PER vs 19 and 8 and 18 PER (first clear evidence of Shaq's decline) over 14 games.

In 06 Wade was the best player for the Heat, as Shaq was 33 by that point and clearly no longer himself. 27, 7 and 6 VS 20 and 9, 27 VS 24 PER, 14 VS 6 win shares, 8 more minutes per game, higher usage rate... 6th in MVP voting versus not being on the MVP map at all... The key series was the Finals, which they probably shouldn't have won (if they don't win it few people would remember this team). And the Finals were all Wade, Shaq was pretty much a non-factor. He was less important to the Heat in that series than Jason Terry to the Mavs.

Now, the trick is, in 06 the Heat probably had no business winning the title anyway... while ironically in 05 they did. The ECF series against the Pistons was hotly contested, but Wade only played 6 of the 7 games. If he'd played all games they would've had two straight Finals appearances with Wade as the best player on the team for the two year period taken as a whole.

[PJR]

Sorry, but Shaq was outscored by Antoine a Walker in the 2006 Finals.
And Zo had a bigger impact in the deciding game 6 than Shaq did.

This not to say Shaq didn't have a major impact on the Heat overall(he did), and was a still a 1st team all NBA center in 2006 (despite only playing 59 games)
, but there is no argument that it was his team. You're not getting credit as THE main cog, when you were just a decoy in the Finals. Not happening.

[BoutPractice]

I also remember the 06 series vividly as a Mavs fan... I was afraid every time Wade touched the ball, because I knew it was either going to be two points or a whistle (and he'd make the free throws, too).

[Brickz187]

I also remember the 06 series vividly as a Mavs fan... I was afraid every time Wade touched the ball, because I knew it was either going to be two points or a whistle (and he'd make the free throws, too).

^^ This is what matters the most.

[GimmeThat]

Because Shaq was no longer scoring against double teams.

and while it is debatable as to whether or not Wade faced double coverage.
he made the best of it.

[SouBeachTalents]

This.

Wade is a ringless bum without Lebron and Shaq.

You could say LeBron is still a ringless bum without Wade

[iamgine]

I should clarify to say second most important player, because obviously statistically based on FGA he was second "option" but what is the case that he was their second best player? In '04 Shaq got 58 first place MVP votes. Wade got zero.

In 05 neither of them got any first place MVP votes. Per 36 Shaq had 23/11 on 60%. Wade had 25/6 on 50%. Altho proportionally Wade is a better wing defender than Shaq is a paint defender, Shaq's paint defense was still more important overall.


At the very LEAST they were equally impactful. Why do people always categorize it as 1. Wade, 2. Shaq?

Is it because:

A) Wade had more total points and that's what impresses people most?
2) Media gave Wade FMVP (not that he didnt deserve but its ONE series)
D) People always overrate wings and underrate bigs?
$) They hear other people say it so they say it
X) They always have to have a batman and robin, their mind can't compute the thought of equal contributions


Watchu think, Willises? How was Wade the alpha when Shaq was literally a couple votes away from MVP during that era and Wade didn't get a single first place vote, and Shaq's 20pts on 60% plus still playing important D was the single most important thing for the Heat regardless of Wade's great perimeter play?
First option usually is the alpha, regardless of whose contribution is higher overall. Note that first option doesn't always mean those who take the most FGA such as in the case of playmakers like Nash, CP3, Magic, Billups. Wade was clearly the 1st option in '06.

[Mass Debator]

What's wrong with being second option to someone who was consistently putting up near 30 every game?

[Roundball_Rock]

Can someone please note Wade's teams win percentage without LeBron and Shaq?

its probably puke worthy

Miami Heat with/without Shaq

2005: 53-20 (73%), 6-3 (67%) without him.
2006: 42-17 (71%), 10-13 (43%) without him. 1-0 with Shaq on the bench (23 minutes).
2007: 25-15 (62.5%), 19-23 (45%) without him. 0-1 with Shaq on the bench (14 minutes).

Totals: 120-52 (70%), 35-39 (47%) without him.

How about the Heat with Shaq, without Wade? Wade missed 7 games in 2006 and 31 in 2007.

2006: 4-1 (80%)
2007: 16-8 (67%)

Total: 20-9 (69%)

How about the Heat with Wade, without Shaq?

2005: 5-3 (62.5%)
2006: 11-11 (50%)
2007: 18-17 (51%)

Total: 34-31 (52%)

Yeah, Shaq was just along for the ride. :oldlol: Wade "alpha'ed" his way to 11-11 and 18-17 without him in 2006 and 2007--a harbinger of things to come post-Shaq, pre-LeBron...

[Anaximandro1]

OK


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z0dXIs-OaCE/U81YF2lhFfI/AAAAAAAADZU/6EqjV4I_caU/s1600/2.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cgU2vPxzFl8/U81YF48xM5I/AAAAAAAADZY/0tzAPf4i4ZU/s1600/1.jpg

[305Baller]

http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m983iyx31h1qe1x8qo1_400.gif

[bdreason]

Shaq was a more impactful player than Wade for his entire NBA career until he unofficially retired in 2007.

That's not to take anything away from Wade. Just like Kobe, Wade was able to take advantage of being on the court with possibly the most dominant single force the game has ever seen.

[bdreason]

I also remember the 06 series vividly as a Mavs fan... I was afraid every time Wade touched the ball, because I knew it was either going to be two points or a whistle (and he'd make the free throws, too).


Wade is the godfather of the modern era of FT scorers. :bowdown:

[navy]

OK


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z0dXIs-OaCE/U81YF2lhFfI/AAAAAAAADZU/6EqjV4I_caU/s1600/2.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cgU2vPxzFl8/U81YF48xM5I/AAAAAAAADZY/0tzAPf4i4ZU/s1600/1.jpg
But Shaq was more impactful. :oldlol:

[DaSeba5]

OK


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z0dXIs-OaCE/U81YF2lhFfI/AAAAAAAADZU/6EqjV4I_caU/s1600/2.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cgU2vPxzFl8/U81YF48xM5I/AAAAAAAADZY/0tzAPf4i4ZU/s1600/1.jpg

:lol

[HiphopRelated]

Miami Heat with/without Shaq

2005: 53-20 (73%), 6-3 (67%) without him.
2006: 42-17 (71%), 10-13 (43%) without him. 1-0 with Shaq on the bench (23 minutes).
2007: 25-15 (62.5%), 19-23 (45%) without him. 0-1 with Shaq on the bench (14 minutes).

Totals: 120-52 (70%), 35-39 (47%) without him.

How about the Heat with Shaq, without Wade? Wade missed 7 games in 2006 and 31 in 2007.

2006: 4-1 (80%)
2007: 16-8 (67%)

Total: 20-9 (69%)

How about the Heat with Wade, without Shaq?

2005: 5-3 (62.5%)
2006: 11-11 (50%)
2007: 18-17 (51%)

Total: 34-31 (52%)

Yeah, Shaq was just along for the ride. :oldlol: Wade "alpha'ed" his way to 11-11 and 18-17 without him in 2006 and 2007--a harbinger of things to come post-Shaq, pre-LeBron...
You can straight up throw out 2007.

Every starter except Wade was hurt early that year. The team was playing .500 ball starting for a significant portion...

Chris Quinn
Wade
Kapono
Haslem
Zo

That's not just "lacking Shaq"

The vets were basically waiting til post ASB to "defend" the title and Wade got hurt the 1st game after ASB.