Building a team, Kawhi Leonard or James Harden?

[russwest0]

Who would you start your franchise off with?

[L8kersfan222]

Budadii

[moe94]

The one who made first team all-NBA. Seriously, though, is Harden the worst guard to ever make first team? Spree did it, but is he that much better or worse than Spree?

[Angel Face]

Kawhi Leonard. Harden is a ball hog. He kills ball rotation, waste shot clock only to brick.

[dirkdiggler41]

James Harden, give him Pop and see what happens!

[russwest0]

I would almost take James Harden just to trade him to some sucker like Morey for a bunch of assets.

But even then you're sill passing up on a young STUD in Kawhi Leonard.

[russwest0]

James Harden, give him Pop and see what happens!

He was in a development system just like the one the Spurs have in OKC and was traded because he didn't value winning over individual success.

Despite there being rumors about Harden's selfish behavior, Presti has also made multiple hints at it as well. I think during the press conference after the Harden trade he started singling out how hard Durant, Ibaka, and Westbrook all work every single day, almost to say that he had no worries of paying those guys high contracts compared to someone like Harden who didn't put as much work in.

[Dragic4Life]

Kawhi all day.

[Milbuck]

James Harden.

Seriously though, Kawhi and it's not close.

[russwest0]

We all know that Harden has the talent and great understanding of the officiating in this sport to score 25+ each night.

OKC traded Harden because they didn't feel that he put enough work in to be a max contract level impact player in the playoffs.

At the time everyone said they were just overreacting to his poor Finals series. But since then Houston has had two first round exits and Harden has played poor in both. I'd say that OKC was right with their assessment of Harden.

[Cocaine80s]

Kawhi would be MKG if he didn't have Pop.

Harden on the Spurs would be Manu on steroids

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Both are ideally 3rd options but Kawhi has a higher ceiling and plays on both ends
give me kawhi

[russwest0]

I just remembered games 3 and 4 of the 2012 Finals where OKC only lost to Miami by 6 points and in both games James Harden shot 2-10 from the field.

Yet OKC fans have to continually watch clowns like Bill Simmons try to shit on OKC for trading Harden away.

It's no coincidence that in the 2012 Finals, the one game that Harden took less than 10 shots (only 6, actually), OKC won. The same shit we see in Houston in the playoffs with him struggling to shoot 40% from the field, chucking up too many 3s, playing for the whistle too much, and playing shit D, we all got to see that in OKC as well.

[Im so nba'd out]

Tough even though kawaii is the better all around player i would have to go with harden.Even though he doesn't play defense he is still the best shooting guard in the league right now

[ABfor3]

Give me the guy who's been averaging 25/5/5 as the main option on his team with a coach who doesn't know what the f*ck he's doing.

Whether you wanna dispute it or not, Kawhi has definitley benefited from playing under Pop arguably the best coach in NBA history.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

I just remembered games 3 and 4 of the 2012 Finals where OKC only lost to Miami by 6 points and in both games James Harden shot 2-10 from the field.

Yet OKC fans have to continually watch clowns like Bill Simmons try to shit on OKC for trading Harden away.

It's no coincidence that in the 2012 Finals, the one game that Harden took less than 10 shots (only 6, actually), OKC won. The same shit we see in Houston in the playoffs with him struggling to shoot 40% from the field, chucking up too many 3s, playing for the whistle too much, and playing shit D, we all got to see that in OKC as well.
Cry me a river bitch.

[LeJohn Janes]

Kawhi for me. I can't have a team where Sefolosha is dropping 28 on me.

[SHABBA]

Kawhi.

[Artillery]

Harden's a fanchise player. Leonard's a role player that had a great Finals series.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Harden's a fanchise player. Leonard's a role player that had a great Finals series.
Kawhi already has 2 finals series better than Hardens

LOL @ Hardon being a franchise player hes at best a mediocre 2nd option

[Artillery]

LOL @ Hardon being a franchise player hes at best a mediocre 2nd option

Durant looked like a beta 2nd option in this year's playoffs. Shut down by Tony Allen. Pretty obvious that Westbrook was the best Thunder player.

[Milbuck]

Durant looked like a beta 2nd option in this year's playoffs. Shut down by Tony Allen. Pretty obvious that Westbrook was the best Thunder player.
Durant putting up 30/9/4/2/1 on 57% TS is him getting shut down and playing like a beta? That's some GOAT-caliber shit right there.

[Artillery]

Durant putting up 30/9/4/2/1 on 57% TS is him getting shut down and playing like a beta? That's some GOAT-caliber shit right there.

Outplayed by his sidekick throughout the playoffs.

[Dragic4Life]

Outplayed by his sidekick throughout the playoffs.
I don't get it...

Durant IS the sidekick.

[Milbuck]

Outplayed by his sidekick throughout the playoffs.
All that means is that Westbrook is a monster. The way you're describing it you'd think Durant had a series putting up 18ppg while Westbrook put up 27ppg.

[r0drig0lac]

Kawhi..but when tim and manu retire, the stats of kawhi will increase ( plus elite defense ) and this will not even be a question. Plus t

[Anaximandro1]

Kawhi

He already has elite defensive and rebounding skills.

Most importantly, he is a sponge, absorbs everything and works extremely hard. He never shows emotion and handles pressure very well.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-suU5NzhzFRY/U80CulKn6KI/AAAAAAAADZE/Ah8ahPUFKgA/s1600/1.jpg

[moe94]

Both are ideally 3rd options but Kawhi has a higher ceiling and plays on both ends
give me kawhi

"Ideally 3rd option". First team all-NBA. :yaohappy:

[JohnMax]

Harden can carry a lottery team into the playoffs but is useless once he gets there.

Kawhi can turn a good playoff team into a champion.

[Lebronxrings]

believe it or not, I would choose harden. Kawhi is a product of the spurs system.

[navy]

Harden.

[Mr Exlax]

You people forget who's coaching Harden right now lol. Just imagine how good he'd be with a real coach.

[DMAVS41]

Are we factoring in salary?

It's Leonard either way for me, but nobody should take Harden if salary is factored in.

[Akrazotile]

Sugar K all day errrrrrrday

[Akrazotile]

You people forget who's coaching Harden right now lol. Just imagine how good he'd be with a real coach.


Wait, he cant try on D because of the coach?

[Purch]

When people say Harden would be Manu on steroids, people do realize that Manu has been a good to great defender every year of his career?

[Im so nba'd out]

When people say Harden would be Manu on steroids, people do realize that Manu has been a good to great defender every year of his career?
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/nsr.gif

[Heavincent]

Kawhi, no question.

[Heatles201]

People seem to forget that without James Harden OKC Doesn't beat the 2012 Spurs. Dude's a bad man the hate for him is real

[StephHamann]

is this really a question? :biggums:

One dude is first team all NBA and the other cant even make an all star team.

The hate for Harden on this board is ridiculous.

About to neg op

James Harden Finals: 12,4PPG 35,7%FG 4,8 Rebounds 3,6 Assists

Kawhi Leonard in 2 Finals: 16,2PPG 55,6%FG 8,75 Rebounds 1,45 Assits

:applause:

[Im so nba'd out]

James Harden Finals: 12,4PPG 35,7%FG 4,8 Rebounds 3,6 Assists

Kawhi Leonard in 2 Finals: 16,2PPG 55,6%FG 8,75 Rebounds 1,45 Assits

:applause:
I wish i could neg you for posting this stupidity harden came off the bench and is a much better player now than he was then

[StephHamann]

I wish i could neg you for posting this stupidity harden came off the bench and is a much better player now than he was then

Harden played 32,8 MPG in 2012

Leonard 33,1 MPG 2014

dat difference

and btw. harden's defence got worse

[GimmeThat]

Leonard plays around 32 minutes per game

Harden plays around 40 for the Rockets
he was also right around that 32 minutes mark while he was with the Thunders


I don't know if anyone expected Harden would have had the ability to blow up, had it not been the 2012 Olympic experience

[Harison]

Kawhi plays much better on the biggest stage. Where was Harden last Playoffs? Sucking, bad. Kawhi was winning FMVP in his second year.

Kawhi might be a system player, but he plays hard both sides, and as main option he could (will IMO) put up much better numbers, and then it wont be even a debate who is better.

[Thorpesaurous]

Players like Harden really freak me out. Guys who's games are so dynamic that they absolutely have to be the best player on a team, but also have some kind of a fatal flaw that seemingly won't allow them to be the best player on a title team. Allen Iverson was my go to example. I'm also not as fond of Barkley (as a building block, I loved to watch him and I love him personality wise, there are just guys I'd take over him that would surprise most people). I've never cared for Karl Malone. And I've got reservations about Harden and Melo.

They're all differing in level. But most of those guys made finals appearances as their teams' best player.

I don't however disagree with the notion that Harden could be Manu on steroids in the right situation. That's basically what he was in OKC. He'd come off the bench and dominate the ball for stretches and could be used just to stretch the floor if necessary, but now that he's gotten a taste of being The Man, I'm not sure he can go back. I also agree that there was a sense of taking 50 cents on the dollar for OKC was in part because they were gonna let him walk the next year anyway because as good as he was at his role he was affecting the dynamic of the other three big pieces the Thunder had in place. And I defend the OKC trade to a degree.

Kwahi is a much more known commodity. He's gonna fit in anywhere. He's gonna defend and rebound and cut and finish. And even if he wasn't in the current situation and his shot never panned out, he'd still have a place. But as it stands out now with the jumper where it's at, and the cost factor, and the room for improvement in playmaking, I think I'd take him. I don't want to build around either guy as a centerpiece, and Kwahi gives me more flexibility in finding the centerpiece I'd really want both in terms of his game and his dollar value both now and moving forward.

But I also agree that the dislike for Harden has gotten crazy, and it's weird because I feel like I was on that bandwagon really early.

It also may be worth noting that there are rumors floating around that players don't like that Rockets core. Mainly Bosh. The rumor being that when Houston chased him, a factor was that he was coming out of this Championship pedigree, and like him or not, he subjugated his game for the sake of The Heat working, and while he's not what he was, there's some theory that he didn't like the infrastructure in Houston built around two guys in Harden and Dwight that are percieved (correctly or not) as not guys who take things totally seriously, and have shown an unwillingness to bend for the good of their teams. And Bosh has been the exact opposite for the last four years, and it may have been a contributing factor (I'm also guessing the extra money didn't hurt).

That may be worth noting when it comes to trying to build around those guys.

[kells333]

Are you guys fvcking kidding me? A maybe top 5 sf over the best sg in the league? A guy who isnt even an allstar over an all nba 1st teamer? At first i thought people were just trolling for a laugh but it looks like some people are serious. James harden carrys any team in the league to the playoffs. Leonard wouldnt be the first option on ANY team next year. Not 1. You guys are pathetic with this james harden hate.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Harden

[Mr Exlax]

Wait, he cant try on D because of the coach?

A real coach would bench his ass in a heartbeat for not trying on defense. I think he should hqve pride to play defense but not all players do. A coach will make him play it.

[Legends66NBA7]

So, would people take Leonard over Paul George too ?

If not, you might as well compare to someone who isn't on an All-NBA team or an All-Star.

[houston]

harden of course

[Fudge]

Give me Kawhi.

[Carbine]

Unless this question is who would you rather have as a third option, the answer is easily Harden for now.

[russwest0]

So, would people take Leonard over Paul George too ?

If not, you might as well compare to someone who isn't on an All-NBA team or an All-Star.

Paul George as the best player on his team has at least made it to the 3rd round. And he's done it twice.

Harden as the best player on his team has made it to the first round twice, played shitty in both series, and got eliminated.

[Carbine]

Let's not pretend making it to the ECF is some huge accomplishment.

[T_L_P]

James Harden, give him Pop and see what happens!

Yes, because Pop just loves James Harden types.

[Smook A.]

Paul George as the best player on his team has at least made it to the 3rd round. And he's done it twice.

Harden as the best player on his team has made it to the first round twice, played shitty in both series, and got eliminated.
Did you forget what conference Paul George is in? Yeah its really not that hard to make the ECF if you're a 50 win team. His ass almost lost to the 8th seed, Atlanta Hawks, in the 1st round. They only won 38 games and damn near beat the Pacers in game 6. If they won that game the series would've been over. Put the Indiana Pacers in the West and they have very little chance of getting out of the 1st round.

[strifed169]

Kahwi who is a m'fkin FMVP

as for Harden, dude plays zero defense, you can't teach clutch, he literally choked all 6 games vs Portland last playoffs.

[russwest0]

Did you forget what conference Paul George is in? Yeah its really not that hard to make the ECF if you're a 50 win team. His ass almost lost to the 8th seed, Atlanta Hawks, in the 1st round. They only won 38 games and damn near beat the Pacers in game 6. If they won that game the series would've been over. Put the Indiana Pacers in the West and they have very little chance of getting out of the 1st round.

Doesn't matter how weak the East is man, I'm never going to put a 3rd round exit on the same grounds as a 1st round one in the West.

And regardless, once Paul George has ended up in the ECF and playing vs the Heat, he's done a far better job than Harden would have like Harden did in the Finals vs them.

[russwest0]

Yes, because Pop just loves James Harden types.

This.

Harden didn't start in OKC because they won't start you if you don't play defense. San Antonio has the same philosophy and would have, just like OKC, traded Harden had he demanded a max contract coming off the bench and coming off a Finals series where his horrible play basically cost his team any chance at winning that year.

[The Choken One]

Is this even a question?

Leonard all day. Would people seriously take Harden? :wtf:

[rmt]

Players like Harden really freak me out. Guys who's games are so dynamic that they absolutely have to be the best player on a team, but also have some kind of a fatal flaw that seemingly won't allow them to be the best player on a title team. Allen Iverson was my go to example. I'm also not as fond of Barkley (as a building block, I loved to watch him and I love him personality wise, there are just guys I'd take over him that would surprise most people). I've never cared for Karl Malone. And I've got reservations about Harden and Melo.

They're all differing in level. But most of those guys made finals appearances as their teams' best player.

I don't however disagree with the notion that Harden could be Manu on steroids in the right situation. That's basically what he was in OKC. He'd come off the bench and dominate the ball for stretches and could be used just to stretch the floor if necessary, but now that he's gotten a taste of being The Man, I'm not sure he can go back. I also agree that there was a sense of taking 50 cents on the dollar for OKC was in part because they were gonna let him walk the next year anyway because as good as he was at his role he was affecting the dynamic of the other three big pieces the Thunder had in place. And I defend the OKC trade to a degree.

Kwahi is a much more known commodity. He's gonna fit in anywhere. He's gonna defend and rebound and cut and finish. And even if he wasn't in the current situation and his shot never panned out, he'd still have a place. But as it stands out now with the jumper where it's at, and the cost factor, and the room for improvement in playmaking, I think I'd take him. I don't want to build around either guy as a centerpiece, and Kwahi gives me more flexibility in finding the centerpiece I'd really want both in terms of his game and his dollar value both now and moving forward.

But I also agree that the dislike for Harden has gotten crazy, and it's weird because I feel like I was on that bandwagon really early.

It also may be worth noting that there are rumors floating around that players don't like that Rockets core. Mainly Bosh. The rumor being that when Houston chased him, a factor was that he was coming out of this Championship pedigree, and like him or not, he subjugated his game for the sake of The Heat working, and while he's not what he was, there's some theory that he didn't like the infrastructure in Houston built around two guys in Harden and Dwight that are percieved (correctly or not) as not guys who take things totally seriously, and have shown an unwillingness to bend for the good of their teams. And Bosh has been the exact opposite for the last four years, and it may have been a contributing factor (I'm also guessing the extra money didn't hurt).

That may be worth noting when it comes to trying to build around those guys.

A lot of San Antonio's success is due to their shot doc, Chip Engelland. He "fixed" Parker's jumper and in the two days before the lockout gave Kwahi a crash course. To Leonard's credit, he put in the work and came back after the lockout with a much improved jumper. To me, as long as the jumper is technically fixed, the sky's the limit for Kwahi. He's got all the physical tools to have a high ceiling and as shown by his TWO Finals performances, he's got the mental/emotional part too. He's already an elite defender, and hopefully Pop loosens the reigns on the offensive end too.

Hard to compare someone like KL to Harden who's had the opportunity to be the "man" - just don't know how an individual will react to that until it happens (and it ain't happening to KL for a while).

[KungFuJoe]

I'd take a role player who commands less money over Harden.

No team, with Harden as their "main guy" is ever gonna win a title. He's a ****ing waste of talent.

[Heavincent]

Haren plays defense like a hungover rec-leaguer and disappears in the playoffs. Don't see why anyone would take him over Kawhi.

[La Frescobaldi]

Players like Harden really freak me out. Guys who's games are so dynamic that they absolutely have to be the best player on a team, but also have some kind of a fatal flaw that seemingly won't allow them to be the best player on a title team. Allen Iverson was my go to example. I'm also not as fond of Barkley (as a building block, I loved to watch him and I love him personality wise, there are just guys I'd take over him that would surprise most people). I've never cared for Karl Malone. And I've got reservations about Harden and Melo.

They're all differing in level. But most of those guys made finals appearances as their teams' best player.

I don't however disagree with the notion that Harden could be Manu on steroids in the right situation. That's basically what he was in OKC. He'd come off the bench and dominate the ball for stretches and could be used just to stretch the floor if necessary, but now that he's gotten a taste of being The Man, I'm not sure he can go back. I also agree that there was a sense of taking 50 cents on the dollar for OKC was in part because they were gonna let him walk the next year anyway because as good as he was at his role he was affecting the dynamic of the other three big pieces the Thunder had in place. And I defend the OKC trade to a degree.

Kwahi is a much more known commodity. He's gonna fit in anywhere. He's gonna defend and rebound and cut and finish. And even if he wasn't in the current situation and his shot never panned out, he'd still have a place. But as it stands out now with the jumper where it's at, and the cost factor, and the room for improvement in playmaking, I think I'd take him. I don't want to build around either guy as a centerpiece, and Kwahi gives me more flexibility in finding the centerpiece I'd really want both in terms of his game and his dollar value both now and moving forward.

But I also agree that the dislike for Harden has gotten crazy, and it's weird because I feel like I was on that bandwagon really early.

It also may be worth noting that there are rumors floating around that players don't like that Rockets core. Mainly Bosh. The rumor being that when Houston chased him, a factor was that he was coming out of this Championship pedigree, and like him or not, he subjugated his game for the sake of The Heat working, and while he's not what he was, there's some theory that he didn't like the infrastructure in Houston built around two guys in Harden and Dwight that are percieved (correctly or not) as not guys who take things totally seriously, and have shown an unwillingness to bend for the good of their teams. And Bosh has been the exact opposite for the last four years, and it may have been a contributing factor (I'm also guessing the extra money didn't hurt).

That may be worth noting when it comes to trying to build around those guys.

dang this is one of the best posts i saw in a while on this forum. you just got repped for that and i wish i saw more of it on here too.

[Thorpesaurous]

A lot of San Antonio's success is due to their shot doc, Chip Engelland. He "fixed" Parker's jumper and in the two days before the lockout gave Kwahi a crash course. To Leonard's credit, he put in the work and came back after the lockout with a much improved jumper. To me, as long as the jumper is technically fixed, the sky's the limit for Kwahi. He's got all the physical tools to have a high ceiling and as shown by his TWO Finals performances, he's got the mental/emotional part too. He's already an elite defender, and hopefully Pop loosens the reigns on the offensive end too.

Hard to compare someone like KL to Harden who's had the opportunity to be the "man" - just don't know how an individual will react to that until it happens (and it ain't happening to KL for a while).


I read the article on Grantland about Englend. It's really cool. I love the stuff with Kerr where the two of them would just sit around and talk then a horn would go off and Kerr would have to go end to end and bang down a handfull of jumpers, because that's what being a bench shooter is like.

And I also like that they talked about one of the things about being a great shooter is recognizing the shots you're great at. And not trying to force Tony Parker the square peg into the three point floor stretching round hole.

Here's the article.

http://grantland.com/features/the-shot-doctor/

[Thorpesaurous]

dang this is one of the best posts i saw in a while on this forum. you just got repped for that and i wish i saw more of it on here too.


Thanks.

I've been on here for like a decade. When I started I was a pretty hardcore basketball poster. Now I'm mostly hanging out in the OTC talking about tv shows and movies.

I love basketball. And as I've gotten older I've realized just how simple it is at it's best, and it just sort of feels like I've said all I have to say on most topics. But I still check in and comment periodically.