Which Perimeter Players Drafted From '87 Onward Would You Take Over Scottie Pippen?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Career not peak..for active players just project their careers

Notable perimeter players that came into the league '87 onward (HoFers for the most part):

Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
Ray Allen
Kobe Bryant
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
Paul Pierce
Manu Ginobli
Tony Parker
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Paul
Rajon Rondo
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Steph Curry

If I missed anybody you think deserves to be included please let me know!

[Im so nba'd out]

lebron
kobe
durant
melo
iverson

[Rameek]

There could be a ton of possible players taken if you are referring to having a league dog main guy. Pippen is a major component strictly 1B type player.

[Sarcastic]

Quite honestly, a lot of them. More than 10. Almost any of those guys could have played second option to Jordan, and collected 6 rings.

[Roundball_Rock]

Career not peak..for active players just project their careers

Notable perimeter players that came into the league '87 onward (HoFers for the most part):

Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
Ray Allen
Kobe Bryant
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
Paul Pierce
Manu Ginobli
Tony Parker
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Paul
Rajon Rondo
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Steph Curry

If I missed anybody you think deserves to be included please let me know!

Here are mine. 50/50 on Paul and Rose. I would take T Mac and Wade too if we were going by peaks.

For the record, Pippen actually was drafted over K. Johnson, Reggie Miller as well as Reggie Lewis.


Almost any of those guys could have played second option to Jordan, and collected 6 rings.

Interestingly, MJ himself disagreed. He refused to allow Chicago to trade Pippen for a younger star, i.e. Kemp. If Pippen was that interchangeable logic says you go with the younger player.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

The only 3 for me are LeBron, Kobe and Durant...

[AnaheimLakers24]

kobe
kidd
lebrick

maybe kd but dude is thinner than my dick

[Roundball_Rock]

A common mistake people always make in these hypotheticals is assuming you can simply swap raw production without looking at intangibles. How many of these players would also supply Pippen's leadership, dominant defense, and have the same chemistry with not only Jordan but with the rest of the team? Shaq+Kobe is the prime example. On paper that team should have dominated for a decade but was doomed by chemistry issues. Iverson and Carmelo, Kobe/Howard/Nash/Gasol on the Lakers and the 11' Heat are other examples of teams that looked much better on paper than on the court.

For example (from Charley Rosen):


In fact, all of the Bulls were somewhat afraid of Michael Jordan (who would ferociously bark at them whenever they made the slightest mistake in positioning or timing). For solace and advice, the players instead turned to Scottie. Throughout the dynasty, it was Pippen who was the team's on-court leader.

Pippen was universally the most liked teammate on the Bulls (even by Kukoc) and made sure everyone got involved and lifted up struggling teammates. He also was an expert in the triangle offense, picking it up faster than any other player has.

How many of the other 20+ ppg scores on the list would supply all the rest/or offset the intangibles by increased production elsewhere?

[moe94]

A common mistake people always make in these hypotheticals is assuming you can simply swap raw production without looking at intangibles. How many of these players would also supply Pippen's leadership, dominant defense, and have the same chemistry with not only Jordan but with the rest of the team? Shaq+Kobe is the prime example. On paper that team should have dominated for a decade but was doomed by chemistry issues. Iverson and Carmelo, Kobe/Howard/Nash/Gasol on the Lakers and the 11' Heat are other examples of teams that looked much better on paper than on the court.

For example (from Charley Rosen):



Pippen was universally the most liked teammate on the Bulls (even by Kukoc) and made sure everyone got involved and lifted up struggling teammates. Jordan would not even talk to several teammates. He also was an expert in the triangle offense, picking it up faster than anyone else has.

How many of the other 20+ ppg scores on the list would supply all the rest/or offset the intangibles by increased production elsewhere?

Yep, fantastic post.

Barring injury, of course.


Allen Iverson
Kobe Bryant
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
Paul Pierce
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant

I'd take them. Some of them have to do with putting butts in seats along with being great players.

[JUDGE WITNESS]

Interestingly, MJ himself disagreed. He refused to allow Chicago to trade Pippen for a younger star, i.e. Kemp. If Pippen was that interchangeable logic says you go with the younger player.

:oldlol: mj knew he wasnt shit without pippen

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron
Kobe
Wade
KD

If healthy:

Penny
G. Hill
McGrady

W/o Jordan molding him though, we would've had an entirely different Scottie Pippen. Most likely inferior as well. He tried to play like mini Jordan, and Mike is the one who made the meek headache prone pansy into the beast of a sidekick he eventually became.

[Mure]

LeBron
Kobe
Durant

That's it.

[PJR]

Bryant, James, Wade, Durant.

That's it.

[SHAQisGOAT]

[B]Depends on which players I already have on the team... For intances, you got some elite PG's on that list, always major.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: mj knew he wasnt shit without pippen

Pippen not being traded was a condition of MJ's return. So I ask, if Pippen was so interchangeable wouldn't the logical thing be to trade the 29-30 year old Pippen for a 24-25 year old star like Kemp? The Bulls could have gotten Shawn Kemp (a 20/11 type PF in his prime) along with Ricky Pierce for Pippen. Interestingly, MJ, retired at the time and friends with George Karl recommended that Karl make the trade because it would guarantee Seattle a championship. Again, MJ's words (MJ viewed Pippen as the best player in the league in 95' so that is the perspective he was looking at it from). I use Kemp as an example because that is real trade that almost happened but the Bulls could have gotten a number of other stars for Pippen.


W/o Jordan molding him though, we would've had an entirely different Scottie Pippen.

:oldlol:

[Teanett]

LeBron, Kobe
and maybe...
Steve Nash! (probably not Nash but i had to think for a second)

[SamuraiSWISH]

Scottie Pippen was never better than Bron, Kobe, Wade, KD, or even prime McGrady. If they remained healthy Penny, and Grant Hill were already better as well yet were still improving.

[moe94]

W/o Jordan molding him though, we would've had an entirely different Scottie Pippen. Most likely inferior as well. He tried to play like mini Jordan, and Mike is the one who made the meek headache prone pansy into the beast of a sidekick he eventually became.

Please stop. :coleman:

[Roundball_Rock]

Scottie Pippen was never better than Bron, Kobe, Wade, KD, or even prime McGrady. If they remained healthy Penny, and Grant Hill were already better as well yet were still improving.

Health is a key part of having a successful NBA career. If Pippen had the injury history that T Mac, Penny, Hill had the 90's would look a lot different...The Bulls were lucky Pippen did not have a serious injury until, ironically, right at the end of his time with Chicago.

[Teanett]

Scottie Pippen was never better than Bron, Kobe, Wade, KD, or even prime McGrady. If they remained healthy Penny, and Grant Hill were already better as well yet were still improving.


ok, then might as well pick reggie lewis and lenny cooke over pippen, d!ckhead

[SamuraiSWISH]

Health is a key part of having a successful NBA career. If Pippen had the injury history that T Mac, Penny, Hill had the 90's would look a lot different...The Bulls were lucky Pippen did not have a serious injury until, ironically, right at the end of his time with Chicago.
This is redundant. That's what I'm saying. All these guys were better basketball players than Pippen. Plain and simple.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Career not peak..for active players just project their careers

Notable perimeter players that came into the league '87 onward (HoFers for the most part):

Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
Ray Allen
Kobe Bryant
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
Paul Pierce
Manu Ginobli
Tony Parker
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Paul
Rajon Rondo
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Steph Curry

If I missed anybody you think deserves to be included please let me know!

Thats pretty much it

[SamuraiSWISH]

ok, then might as well pick reggie lewis and lenny cooke over pippen, d!ckhead
Really? Straw man? One of those dudes died young unfortunately, the other was an arrogant prick who had young Bron take his soul as a youngster in HS and never even made it to the league. We got enough a taste and look at Penny, Hill, and McGrady pre injury to see they were better individual players than Pippen. It's not as ridiculous as you're making it out to.be. I'm talking about game, not resume. The only definites better than Pippen.both in game and resume: Bron, Kobe, Wade, and KD.

[Overdrive]

Career not peak..for active players just project their careers

Notable perimeter players that came into the league '87 onward (HoFers for the most part):

Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Ray Allen
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant


Bolded as first option.

Nonbolded depending on team make up.
If I have a 3 & D guy at the 3 I'd rather pair Payton/Kidd/Chris Paul with a Shaq/Duncan than Pippen. Peak Allen was just a bigger threat as a scorer and still overall good player. Reggie was as good a shooter, had legendary games, but he had more flaws than Allen. Both would beast with a legendary Center, but for Reggie you'd need an awesome defender at the 3 to cover up and maybe even a defense specialist at PG.

[played0ut]

It would depend entirely on if I want a complementary player or superstar.


Scottie's impact as a complementary player IMO can be comparable to superstars-- he just doesn't get as much glory because he's not the lead scorer. His work was just as vital too.

MJ said, paraphrased:

"Without Michael Jordan there would be no Scottie Pippen. And without Scottie Pippen there would be no Michael Jordan."


And on MJ 'making' him or not making him:

[quote=Chris Mullin Dream Team interview]
Here

[andgar923]

LeBron
Kobe
Wade
KD

If healthy:

Penny
G. Hill
McGrady

W/o Jordan molding him though, we would've had an entirely different Scottie Pippen. Most likely inferior as well. He tried to play like mini Jordan, and Mike is the one who made the meek headache prone pansy into the beast of a sidekick he eventually became.

People always forget this.

It's always nice to see what Pip became, but he wouldn't have been that without MJ.

[Roundball_Rock]

Really? Straw man? One of those dudes died young unfortunately, the other was an arrogant prick who had young Bron take his soul as a youngster in HS and never even made it to the league. We got enough a taste and look at Penny, Hill, and McGrady pre injury to see they were better individual players than Pippen. It's not as ridiculous as you're making it out to.be. I'm talking about game, not resume. The only definites better than Pippen.both in game and resume: Bron, Kobe, Wade, and KD.

Hill>Pippen on offense.
Pippen>>>>Hill on defense.

Grant Hill's Pistons never went farther than the first round in six years.

Peak Hill statistically (age 27): 26/7/5 with 1.4 steals and 0.6 blocks.
Peak Pippen statistically (age 28): 22/9/6 with 2.9 steals and 0.8 blocks.

Hill's next best statistical season is 21/9/7; Pippen's is 21/8/7.

Statistically they are similar but Pippen was a dominant defender while Hill was not. Hill could get you a couple more points, though.


Here’s what Chris Mullin perceptively said when we talked about Pippen: “I’m not going to say that Michael made him. That’s too strong because Scottie had a lot of game. But if Scottie plays with another guy, I’m not sure whether it’s not just the gifts that wouldn’t have come out, but also the drive.”

:oldlol: at Mullin who presumably is jealous because Pippen was a better SF. Drive? Pippen averaged 4/3 as a college freshman; jumped to 26/10 as a senior. He went from handing out towels to the #5 pick in no time. No other player in history rose so fast, so quickly. That isn't insane drive?

I agree, though, MJ helped Pippen but Pippen helped MJ as well, especially in getting MJ to learn to play in a team context (without Jackson, Winter, and Pippen does MJ learn to play within a team concept and become a great winner?) and prolonging MJ's career by reducing his defensive workload from 1995-1998. What I disagree with is people act as if MJ is the only co-worker in the history of the world to help a younger co-worker or that he "made" a HOF'er. Why couldn't he "make" Stackhouse, Kukoc, Hamilton, or Gerald Wallace into HOF'ers?

[KG215]

I do think the only undoubted ones for me are Kobe, LeBron, Durant, and Wade. I do think you could make a case for a few others if we go strictly by peaks, but those four are the only unquestioned ones in my opinion.

[MavsSuperFan]

Career not peak..for active players just project their careers

Notable perimeter players that came into the league '87 onward (HoFers for the most part):

Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
Ray Allen
Kobe Bryant
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
Paul Pierce
Manu Ginobli
Tony Parker
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Paul
Rajon Rondo
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Steph Curry

If I missed anybody you think deserves to be included please let me know!
Ones I would take before pippen to be my franchise player

[alexd]

Lebron for sure.wade I don t think so cause both play sg unless wade played pg.the same goes for all sg players.you need a two way player so that leaves curry,Nash etc out
Perhaps kidd would be a good fit
But pippen was the perfect complimentary player.long athletic great defender and solid offensive player.durant would t got cause he isn t a great defender.iverson would clash with Micheal often
Some of the players you mentioned are better players than pippen(wade,lebron etc)but would they fit with Micheal?I don t think so.i think only lebron would cause he s actually a more skilled and much more gifted pippen
I would t trade for a pg cause having the pg as one of the best players in the team rarely makes the team successful.but that s a personal preference
Bottom line if there was no Scottie good picks would be Payton,kidd,tmac and lebron

[andgar923]

It would depend entirely on if I want a complementary player or superstar.


Scottie's impact as a complementary player IMO can be comparable to superstars-- he just doesn't get as much glory because he's not the lead scorer. His work was just as vital too.

MJ said, paraphrased:

"Without Michael Jordan there would be no Scottie Pippen. And without Scottie Pippen there would be no Michael Jordan."


And on MJ 'making' him or not making him:




I've said before too, MJ's teammates all had game and potential-- they weren't scrubs. But MJ helped elevate their game (and vice versa). Damn ****ing right they better have played well after MJ retired.




And before anyone calls me a narrow minded Jordan homer, I think Jordan needed Scottie just as much as vice versa. Jordan also had Scottie train him on how to properly do left-handed layups/dunks (proper footwork and watnot).

You aint being a homer. It's been well recorded and retold over and over by countless people, but people want to pretend it's a myth or exaggeration.

From coaches, teammates, officials, etc. MJ had a HUGE impact on Pip's development as a player. Without MJ there's no Pip... PERIOD.

MJ was already tearing up the league before Pip. Would he have won without Pip? who knows. Perhaps another player with potential would've come along. Or if Sellers wasn't a coke head he may have developed into that 2nd option that Pip became.

[DMAVS41]

The only 3 for me are LeBron, Kobe and Durant...

I'd add Wade and healthy T-Mac/Hill

[The Choken One]

You can make arguments for several others, but the only guarantees IMO are Kobe, LBJ and Durant.

edit: Healthy TMac as above said. Wade ... eh, maybe.

[moe94]

You can make arguments for several others, but the only guarantees IMO are Kobe, LBJ and Durant.

edit: Healthy TMac as above said. Wade ... eh, maybe.

eh, maybe? Wade was on Kobe's, T-Mac's, LeBron's and Durant's level, at worst. :biggums:

[The Choken One]

eh, maybe? Wade was on Kobe's, T-Mac's, LeBron's and Durant's level, at worst. :biggums:
For like, 1 season. 3 if we're being generous.

Injured or just being a bitch for the rest of them.

Sans Tmac, the others have been much more effective for longer periods and/or will be in Durant's case.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ was already tearing up the league before Pip. Would he have won without Pip? who knows.

Pippen not on the team/on the bench:

38-44, 1-3
9-9 (CHI 30-52 overall), 0-3
40-42, 0-3
50-32, 2-2
13-12

Then Pippen becomes a starter and this happens:

34-23, ECF
55-27, ECF
61-21, champions
67-15, champions
57-25, champions
51-21, ECSF
47-35, ECSF
72-10, champions
69-13, champions
38-7, champions

:oldlol: at people acting as if Chicago was getting a Pippen-caliber player in any other way. They weren't going to be in the lottery and Chicago has never acquired a superstar via trade or free agency in the Reinsdorf era (maybe it happened prior to that). What they realistically would have gotten are players of the caliber of Boozer or 34 year old Gasol.

[played0ut]

You aint being a homer. It's been well recorded and retold over and over by countless people, but people want to pretend it's a myth or exaggeration.

From coaches, teammates, officials, etc. MJ had a HUGE impact on Pip's development as a player. Without MJ there's no Pip... PERIOD.

MJ was already tearing up the league before Pip. Would he have won without Pip? who knows. Perhaps another player with potential would've come along. Or if Sellers wasn't a coke head he may have developed into that 2nd option that Pip became.

It's not the issue of myth or overexaggeration, i don't think. It's the way they present themselves. The way some people say it makes it seem as if Pippen was a blank slate, and MJ just started inputing skills into him until he became the perfect complementary player.

That would be unfair to Pippen, who was naturally tremendously skilled.

Pippen and Jordan made each other's careers, of that there is no doubt. But from a purely basketball standpoint, I would say Jordan was vital in guiding and helped him reach his full potential. My next point is at the bottom and addressed to you both.




I agree, though, MJ helped Pippen but Pippen helped MJ as well, especially in getting MJ to learn to play in a team context (without Jackson, Winter, and Pippen does MJ learn to play within a team concept and become a great winner?) and prolonging MJ's career by reducing his defensive workload from 1995-1998. What I disagree with is people act as if MJ is the only co-worker in the history of the world to help a younger co-worker or that he "made" a HOF'er. Why couldn't he "make" Stackhouse, Kukoc, Hamilton, or Gerald Wallace into HOF'ers?

Because frankly, Pippen had more game. a higher ceiling, and higher BBIQ than them. He was just plain better.



What I'm saying is that Pippen was always had first class skills (great player and better than most without Jordan), but Jordan helped elevate him to elite class.

Think about this. Scottie Pippen is one of the GOAT perimeter defenders, it's practically universally agreed, regardless of which stan you are. Scottie played against the most unstoppable offensive perimeter player in NBA history. MJ would treat practice like game 7 and try his hardest to embarrass the opposite team, and Pippen guarded him virtually every single time (Jordan only wanted to be put against the second best).

Now do that every practice, for 8 ****ing years. That is mentally and physically gruelling.

Scottie rose to the challenge (not many would be able to) but how do you think that impacted Scottie's development as a defender, and his mental fortitude as a player?







As an aside, all the other teammates had to handle that (though not to Scottie's extent). If they couldn't hack it physically or mentally, they were cut. After training like that, how could the bulls NOT be great, even without Jordan?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Grant Hill's Pistons never went farther than the first round in six years.
Pistons didn't have a 3x time defending championship hardened roster supporting him, a GOAT coach by that point, or a Euro superstar off the bench.


Peak Hill statistically (age 27): 26/7/5 with 1.4 steals and 0.6 blocks.
Peak Pippen statistically (age 28): 22/9/6 with 2.9 steals and 0.8 blocks.
Hill was getting better, and was a much better scorer. Which is still the most valuable asset in the game. Putting the ball in the hole. Pippen was a low 20 ppg scorer, Hill was rounding out to be a 25+ ppg scoring talent before his ankle devistation. That's a whole nother tier of scorer.


Hill's next best statistical season is 21/9/7; Pippen's is 21/8/7.
Virtually identical. Hill shouldering the blunt of the load from opposing defenses attention. Meanwhile Pippen could make his bones easier with the defense fixated on the greatest scorer of all time.

:facepalm

Like I said, Hill was as good as Pippen, rounding out to be a better player. Hill in his later career showed his capabilities as defender. If he was shouldering an offensive load with someone capable enough, he could assert more Pippen like energy on that end of the floor.

As I said, Grant Hill was the better player. More impactful out the gates of college, and still getting better before injuries derailed him.


Statistically they are similar but Pippen was a dominant defender while Hill was not. Hill could get you a couple more points, though.
Hill shouldered more team / franchise burden. And as I said later in his career with more offensive help, even crippled by injuries showed his worth as a quality defensive player.


at Mullin who presumably is jealous because Pippen was a better SF.
Really? That's your argument?

Hell, Johnny Bach, and Pippen himself have said the same things. Jordan molded, didn't make, but influenced Pippen's entire game / mentality.

Pippen was a weak minded, shy, Arkansa country boy. On the Bad Boys 30 for 30 documentary, he admits the pressure of the '90 ECF gave him his migraine. He's the same guy who at his peak sat out the end of a playoff game pouting. Pippen always needed someone to carry the burden of mental strength for him. I shutter to think how fragile he would've been without MJ building him up.

Scottie was that supplemental help for Jordan to win rings. MJ was a beast individually well before Pippen. Scottie can not say the same. He wasn't a 28/5/5 caliber guy in his rookie season. MJ would've ended up winning rings regardless, all he needed was some form of help.

See Mark Aguirre, Isiah Thomas, and Joe Dumars quotes for validation. He may not have been able to win 6, but you give him Shawn Kemp, or some form of help and he could've at least won 3 championships.

[moe94]

For like, 1 season. 3 if we're being generous.

Injured or just being a bitch for the rest of them.

Sans Tmac, the others have been much more effective for longer periods and/or will be in Durant's case.

24/5/6 on 49% shooting for his career

You're underselling Wade. "much more effective for longer periods" is pure nonsense. :rolleyes:

[moe94]

Hell, Johnny Bach, and Pippen himself have said the same things. Jordan molded, didn't make, but influenced Pippen's entire game / mentality.

Pippen was a weak minded, shy, Arkansa country boy. On the Bad Boys 30 for 30 documentary, he admits the pressure of the '90 ECF gave him his migraine. He's the same guy who at his peak sat out the end of a playoff game pouting. Pippen always needed someone to carry the burden of mental strength for him. I shutter to think how fragile he would've been without MJ building him up..
SWISH, are you seriously suggesting that not only did Jordan mold Pippen's game, he affected his personality, too? Changed his mentality, did he? You'd probably make the argument that without Jordan, Pippen never becomes an all-star, much less a HOF player. :coleman:

[andgar923]

SWISH, are you seriously suggesting that not only did Jordan mold Pippen's game, he affected his personality, too? Changed his mentality, did he? You'd probably make the argument that without Jordan, Pippen never becomes an all-star, much less a HOF player. :coleman:

I'll say it...

YES

It's no secret that MJ changed their mentality. He made them tougher mentally, he got them prepared for the challenges they faced. This isn't a secret, nothing new here.

[SamuraiSWISH]

SWISH, are you seriously suggesting that not only did Jordan mold Pippen's game, he affected his personality, too? Changed his mentality, did he? You'd probably make the argument that without Jordan, Pippen never becomes an all-star, much less a HOF player. :coleman:
Are you in the mood to argue?

Yes, I think MJ's game, and DNA rubbed off on Pippen and a lot of the Bulls roster. It's been confirmed by coaches, and the players themselves. Are you arguing with them too?

Those guys also helped Jordan become a more trusting teammate, leader, and person. So they had a positive effect on him as well.

There is different ways to make your teammates better. Jordan wasn't gregarious nice guy like LeBron, or a pass first player like Magic. He willed his teammates to be better, and helped elevate them up to meet his plane of mental toughness.

To answer your straw man argument questions, would Pippen have been an all star? Probably. His potential was there. His ability was like clay for MJ to mold. I don't know if he would've ended up being Scottie Pippen as we know him without Jordan. Not a top 50 player by 1997 in my books. HOF? Maybe.

[moe94]

Are you in the mood to argue?

Yes, I think MJ's game, and DNA rubbed off on Pippen and a lot of the Bulls roster. It's been confirmed by coaches, and the players themselves. Are you arguing with them too?

Those guys also helped Jordan become a more trusting teammate, leader, and person. So they had a positive effect on him as well.

There is different ways to make your teammates better. Jordan wasn't gregarious nice guy like LeBron, or a pass first player like Magic. He willed his teammates to be better, and helped elevate them up to meet his plane of mental toughness.

To answer your straw man argument questions, would Pippen have been an all star? Probably. His potential was there. His ability was like clay for MJ to mold. I don't know if he would've ended up being Scottie Pippen as we know him without Jordan. Not a top 50 player by 1997 in my books. HOF? Maybe.

Mocking you isn't a straw man argument.

I just don't buy that nonsense of Jordan creating Pippen like you believe. Did Jordan help Pippen's career? Of course he did. They won 6 rings together. Pippen didn't need Jordan to teach him how to become a great basketball player. How come he never molded another star player on the Bobcats/Hornets? Did they simply not have the potential? Or does Jordan physically need to play with them in his prime for this shit to happen? Is that the argument?

I heard motherf*ckers saying they made Pip, made Pip say, "Ok so, make another Pip"

[SamuraiSWISH]

Mocking you isn't a straw man argument.
Then don't do it passive-aggressively like a bitch.


I just don't buy that nonsense of Jordan creating Pippen like you believe.
I didn't say that though ... Did you even read what I wrote in response to your initial questions errr "mocking"?

Don't get your undies in a twist.

[97 bulls]

You aint being a homer. It's been well recorded and retold over and over by countless people, but people want to pretend it's a myth or exaggeration.

From coaches, teammates, officials, etc. MJ had a HUGE impact on Pip's development as a player. Without MJ there's no Pip... PERIOD.

MJ was already tearing up the league before Pip. Would he have won without Pip? who knows. Perhaps another player with potential would've come along. Or if Sellers wasn't a coke head he may have developed into that 2nd option that Pip became.
It is a myth and exaggerated. The night Pippen was drafted, he was looked at as a player that
could be PG. He said he wanted to be a PG the night he was drafted. As far as his defense, Rick Barry said he reminded him of Dennis Rodman.

Did Jordan help Pippen? Absolutely. Did he make Pippen? Hell no.

As far as the list, the only one id take for sure is LeBron James.

[Roundball_Rock]

SWISH, are you seriously suggesting that not only did Jordan mold Pippen's game, he affected his personality, too? Changed his mentality, did he? You'd probably make the argument that without Jordan, Pippen never becomes an all-star, much less a HOF player. :coleman:

MJ mythologists will stop at nothing: Jordan "made" a HOF'er--once but failed to do it with anyone else in Chicago, Washington or Charlotte. MJ is the ultimate competitor. He has been a joke in Washington and Charlotte. He was 0.500 year after of year in CHI prior to Pippen, despite having a 20+ ppg second option early in his career. Why didn't he "make" HOF'ers in Chicago other than Pippen? Why did he go 37-45 and miss the playoffs twice in Washington with Stackhouse and Hamilton? How about the joke of a franchise that is the Bobcats/Hornets? Why not "make" a Pippen there? If he had that magic he would have; he does not. MJ stans act as if he is a god. These people even defend his dick size. :lol


It is a myth and exaggerated. The night Pippen was drafted, he was looked at as a player that

The Pistons were trying to trade up to get him because their GM and Daly viewed him as a future superstar. The Kings wanted him at #6. Krause made the trade with Seattle because he was afraid, correctly, that Pip would be gone by the time Chicago picked at #8. All this for a guy just years removed from handing out towels. And you have mythologists saying MJ "made" him.

The biggest exagerration about MJ is his leadership. It is hard to lead when you are too much of a jerk to even talk to teammates. :lol Pippen was the real leader. When players needed advice, consolation, or any other form of real leadership they went to Pippen; when they needed shoes signed for their nephews they went to MJ.

[played0ut]

Guys, lets keep this civil we're all fans here and none of you guys strike me as willfully ignorant stans.

I don't agree that Pippen was mentally weak initially, btw. Just not as strong as he eventually became.



How come he never molded another star player on the Bobcats/Hornets?

I heard motherf*ckers saying they made Pip, made Pip say, "Ok so, make another Pip"

Because Pip was already 1st class player and better than the rest. He had more potential and game. We're saying MJ helped cultivate his potential into jumping from 1st class to elite player.

From a B+ player => A+



Pippen didn't need Jordan to teach him how to become a great basketball player.

I will say that Pippen became a GOAT level perimeter defender because of defending MJ. He's defending the most unstoppable perimeter offensive force in NBA history day in and day out in practice. It's relentless mental, verbal, and scoring attacks from MJ onto Pippen.

I'm certain you'll agree that it would be mentally and physically grueling.

"If you go into practice not feeling well, or having some weakness, MJ would kill you. It'll be like blood to a shark," --Scottie Pippen (paraphrased)









What are your thoughts of 8 years of GOAT offensive barrage directed at Scottie? What sort of impact do you think it had on Pippen's offensive game and mentality?

[BuGzBuNNy]

Kobe, LeBron, Durant

I would consider Nash and Wade

[played0ut]

The biggest exagerration about MJ is his leadership. It is hard to lead when you are too much of a jerk to even talk to teammates. :lol Pippen was the real leader. When players needed advice, consolation, or any other form of real leadership they went to Pippen; when they needed shoes signed for their nephews they want to MJ.

It's not an exaggeration--There're different styles of leaderships.

MJ and Pippen were great because they played the good cop bad cop dynamic to a T.

MJ's leadership style wasn't ideal. He was no Larry Bird/Magic Johnson, who knew how to get the most out of people without being a dick. But his leadership got shit done. Pippen did what MJ was unable (or unwilling) to do leadership wise. He would keep teammates involved, encourage them, and would even notice when someone hasn't had much touches, and would make sure they got the ball.

[Roundball_Rock]

Because Pip was already 1st class player and better than the rest. He had more potential and game. We're saying MJ helped cultivate his potential into jumping from 1st class to elite player.

From a B+ player => A+

So were Chuck Daly, Jerry Krause, Jack Mccloskey, whoever ran the Kings and others all wrong? All these individuals and their respective organizations wanted Pippen and projected him to be a superstar. This was before Pippen ever met MJ. How did that happen? How did Pippen get picked #5 ahead of Kevin Johnson, Reggie Miller, Horace Grant, Reggie Lewis, and Kenny Smith? All this for an average player who "needed" MJ to learn the game? Odd story. Is there any other story in basketball of anyone else "making" a HOF'er? Surely if it is possible it must have been done by others not named MJ...


I will say that Pippen became a GOAT level perimeter defender because of defending MJ. He's defending the most unstoppable perimeter offensive force in NBA history day in and day out in practice. It's relentless mental, verbal, and scoring attacks from MJ onto Pippen.

Doug Collins and Phil Jackson doing extra work with him had nothing to do with it?

From Charley Rosen:


Scottie, not MJ, was Bulls' on-court leader

Scottie Pippen's career was somewhat controversial even before he ever played a game in the NBA.

It seems that Billy McKinney was a Chicago Bulls scout in the mid-eighties when he discovered Pippen playing for Central Arkansas in an NAIA tournament. Jerry Krause was Chicago's general manager and self-proclaimed resident genius so, following McKinney's tip, "Crumbs" went to see Pippen for himself.

After Seattle tabbed Pippen as the fifth overall selection of the 1987 NBA draft, Krause engineered a trade that brought Pippen to Chicago for Olden Polynice, plus a future second-round pick and the option to swap future first-round picks. Then Krause wasted little time in declaring that he, not McKinney, had actually discovered Pippen.

In any case, Pippen's rookie season happened to coincide with Phil Jackson's initial campaign as an assistant to Doug Collins and Scottie and PJ hit it off from the get-go. It was Jackson who taught Pippen a pull-up and shoot move. Jackson also saw in Pippen a more athletic version of himself, so he tutored the rookie in the theory and practice of defense.

When Jackson took over from Collins in 1989, the triangle offense was installed and history was in the offing. Jackson felt so comfortable with Pippen's understanding and instincts on the defensive end that he frequently deferred to Scottie's judgment. Oftentimes when Jackson would question why an otherwise intelligent player zigged in a particular defensive sequence instead of executing the required zag, the player would simply say, "Scottie told me to do it." And the coach was satisfied.

In fact, all of the Bulls were somewhat afraid of Michael Jordan (who would ferociously bark at them whenever they made the slightest mistake in positioning or timing). For solace and advice, the players instead turned to Scottie. Throughout the dynasty, it was Pippen who was the team's on-court leader.

Let's ignore all of the above and give credit to MJ for doing what no one else in basketball history has done: "make" a HOF'er.

[Phenith]

LeBron
Kobe
Wade
KD

If healthy:

Penny
G. Hill
McGrady

W/o Jordan molding him though, we would've had an entirely different Scottie Pippen. Most likely inferior as well. He tried to play like mini Jordan, and Mike is the one who made the meek headache prone pansy into the beast of a sidekick he eventually became.

Agree completely, but I would put Wade in the "If healthy" section.

[deja vu]

lebron
kobe
durant
melo
iverson
LOL at Melo and Iverson.

[Nash]

How many field goals per game did Pippen take during his prime vs the 1st option perimeter players that came after him?

[97 bulls]

How many field goals per game did Pippen take during his prime vs the 1st option perimeter players that came after him?
I think what these guys are doing is comparing Pippens two years or better yet 1.5 years leading the Bulls to players who spent essentially their whole careers as the man.

A ridiculous line of reasoning. Im sure if you gave Pippen three or four years and the best talent, he'd be able to lead a team to a championship and have an MVP

[Bird]

The only 3 for me are LeBron, Kobe and Durant...

Same here.

I would have added T-Mac had we gotten 2 or 3 more healthy seasons out of him and the same for Grant Hill.

The rest I wouldn't even consider, though Wade did get some thought.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Agree completely, but I would put Wade in the "If healthy" section.
Thanks. But why? As it stands he's had a better career. His peak years of 2006, 2009, 2010, and 2011 are better than anything Pippen has ever done on the floor. 2004 - 2012 > Pippen's career.

[To4]

Rolando Blackman

[tpols]

Jason Kidd
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Kevin Durant
Russell Westbrook

[Aussie Dunker]

I feel as if not many should be taken above Pippen - however one name I have failed to see is Payton... All world defense for a decade, as well as being the main offensive option for the most part - and the floor general... I think he should be atleast in the conversation...

[knicksman]

the question is how many players have won with pippen type of players as their man? I cant think of any. So hes just a role player and like most other role players, they can be replaced. He just gotten overrated because of playing with jordan. Hes not the type of player you build around. And that was proven when he cant maintain the 55 win. And im sure theyre playing inspired basketball coz they want to prove they can win w/o mj but once that inspiration is gone, hes back to where he should be which is a 45 win team.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I feel as if not many should be taken above Pippen - however one name I have failed to see is Payton... All world defense for a decade, as well as being the main offensive option for the most part - and the floor general... I think he should be atleast in the conversation...
hes there...4th one on the list

[Jacks3]

only kobe/lebron/durant. maybe wade.

that's it.

pippen was a beast who'll always underrated because it's a lot harder to "see" his defensive impact than the offensive brilliance of these other guys. plus all the jordan stans doing to their best to diminish him. sad.

[knicksman]

only kobe/lebron/durant. maybe wade.

that's it.

pippen was a beast who'll always underrated because it's a lot harder to "see" his defensive impact than the offensive brilliance of these other guys. plus all the jordan stans doing to their best to diminish him. sad.

maybe because defense is a dirty work. Pippen is not the man so he has to do the dirty work on the team while jordan is doing the harder work which is to score.

[Roundball_Rock]

only kobe/lebron/durant. maybe wade.

that's it.

pippen was a beast who'll always underrated because it's a lot harder to "see" his defensive impact than the offensive brilliance of these other guys. plus all the jordan stans doing to their best to diminish him. sad.

:applause:

Also his leadership is underrated because people assume the leading scorer=the team's on court/locker room leader. Pippen was the real leader of the Bulls. MJ had a role in this regard, namely being the a-hole who called out people, but it was Pippen who players turned to for advice, support, help and Pippen pointed things out in a civil way. In other words, for things you look for when you need leadership, it was Pippen who players turned to. It is kind of hard to lead when you can't even be bothered to speak to some teammates.

:lol at knicksman. You do realize Chicago dropped off much more when they lost Grant than when they lost MJ? Without MJ they went from #2 to #3 in the East; without Grant they went from #3 to #6. They even did worse in the playoffs with MJ, without Grant. In 94' they were robbed; in 95' they were beaten straight up. Grant ironically was great in that series for Orlando. Yet MJ stans act as if Grant leaving had no impact on the 95' team.

[knicksman]

:applause:

Also his leadership is underrated because people assume the leading scorer=the team's on court/locker room leader. Pippen was the real leader of the Bulls. MJ had a role in this regard, namely being the a-hole who called out people, but it was Pippen who players turned to for advice, support, help and Pippen pointed things out in a civil way. In other words, for things you look for when you need leadership, it was Pippen who players turned to. It is kind of hard to lead when you can't even be bothered to speak to some teammates.

:lol at knicksman. You do realize Chicago dropped off much more when they lost Grant than when they lost MJ? Without MJ they went from #2 to #3 in the East; without Grant they went from #3 to #6. They even did worse in the playoffs with MJ, without Grant. In 94' they were robbed; in 95' they were beaten straight up. Grant ironically was great in that series for Orlando. Yet MJ stans act as if Grant leaving had no impact on the 95' team.

yeah from a 67 win team to 55 compared to 55 to 47. LOL that math of yours. No wonder your one of the dumbest.

[Roundball_Rock]

yeah from a 67 win team to 55 compared to 55 to 47. LOL that math of yours. No wonder your one of the dumbest.

:oldlol:

1993 Bulls: 57 wins
1994 Bulls: 55 wins (-2)
1995 Bulls: 47 wins (-8)

[knicksman]

:oldlol:

1993 Bulls: 57 wins
1994 Bulls: 55 wins (-2)
1995 Bulls: 47 wins (-8)

it was obvious that they arent motivated in their 3rd yr. The best measure is their 67 win team. LOL at you not having logic to consider context

[Roundball_Rock]

it was obvious that they arent motivated in their 3rd yr. The best measure is their 67 win team. LOL at you not having logic to consider context

Best measure?

1990: 55 wins
1991: 61 wins
1992: 67 wins
1993: 57 wins
1994: 55 wins

Which one is not like the others?

They sure kept "motivated" in the third year in 98'. :rolleyes:

[knicksman]

Best measure?

1990: 55 wins
1991: 61 wins
1992: 67 wins
1993: 57 wins
1994: 55 wins

Which one is not like the others?

They sure kept "motivated" in the third year in 98'. :rolleyes:

Even if we cherry pick 92', Pippen and Grant played all year. If they did the same in 94' the Bulls would have won 60+ (a 63 win pace). 47 wins sure is a lot less than 63.

yeah looks like 98 has the lowest win during their 2nd 3 peat. LOL at you. Bro stop embarrassing yourself. As they say, empty vessels make the most noise.

[Roundball_Rock]

yeah looks like 98 has the lowest win during their 2nd 3 peat. LOL at you. Bro stop embarrassing yourself. As they say, empty vessels make the most noise.

You weren't born yet so you wouldn't know this, but in 98' that was because Pippen was out for half of 98'. They went from 69 wins the year before to a 56 win pace without him. When he returned they went 38-7.

[Soundwave]

Career not peak..for active players just project their careers

Notable perimeter players that came into the league '87 onward (HoFers for the most part):

Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
Ray Allen
Kobe Bryant
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
Paul Pierce
Manu Ginobli
Tony Parker
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Paul
Rajon Rondo
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Steph Curry

If I missed anybody you think deserves to be included please let me know!

I'd add Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway if we're not talking injuries.

Is Toni Kukoc an option when needing a big shot vs. the Knicks?

[knicksman]

You weren't born yet so you wouldn't know this, but in 98' that was because Pippen was out for half of 98'. They went from 69 wins the year before to a 56 win pace without him. When he returned they went 38-7.

The 98' team also was completely different than the 93' team. The 98' team only had two players on it from the 93' team.

Again idiot. Look at most of the 3 peats. They are less motivated in their 3rd yr. Maimi this year only won 54 in the weak east. Lakers went from 67 wins to 58.

[juju151111]

Again idiot. Look at most of the 3 peats. They are less motivated in their 3rd yr. Maimi this year only won 54 in the weak east. Lakers went from 67 wins to 58.
Add to the fact that Mj was 35 with a broken knuckle.

[LeBird]

:oldlol: mj knew he wasnt shit without pippen

He knew, unlike his stans, that team chemistry and intangibles matter. What he didn't have, Pippen had in abundance. Pippen, and Rodman (Grant earlier), allowed Jordan to do what he did best almost uninhabited.

[Soundwave]

it was obvious that they arent motivated in their 3rd yr. The best measure is their 67 win team. LOL at you not having logic to consider context

It was Grant and Pippen that slacked off in that 92-93 season too, yet Jordan gets blamed for it, lol.

Those two just wanted to get the regular season over with.

[LeBird]

SWISH, are you seriously suggesting that not only did Jordan mold Pippen's game, he affected his personality, too? Changed his mentality, did he? You'd probably make the argument that without Jordan, Pippen never becomes an all-star, much less a HOF player. :coleman:

He'd probably argue that it was Jordan who made Pippen's dick longer. :lol

[LBJMVP]

Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
Ray Allen
Kobe Bryant
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
Paul Pierce
Manu Ginobli
Tony Parker
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Paul
Rajon Rondo
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Steph Curry

as a GM, if i look at this list before i knew how anyone would turn out as a player and only basing them off play before the NBA then i would take...


lebron james
allen iverson
kevin durant
carmelo anthony
gary payton



kevin johnson and mitch richmond maybe

so at best i would take him at 6 and at worst 8

[Round Mound]

Only Lebron James Provides The Similar All Around Game and Multi-Positional Skills That Pippen Had. So Just James.

[Castor Troy]

Reggie.

The rest are up for debate.

[Dresta]

:oldlol: at Mullin who presumably is jealous because Pippen was a better SF. Drive? Pippen averaged 4/3 as a college freshman; jumped to 26/10 as a senior. He went from handing out towels to the #5 pick in no time. No other player in history rose so fast, so quickly. That isn't insane drive?

I agree, though, MJ helped Pippen but Pippen helped MJ as well, especially in getting MJ to learn to play in a team context (without Jackson, Winter, and Pippen does MJ learn to play within a team concept and become a great winner?) and prolonging MJ's career by reducing his defensive workload from 1995-1998. What I disagree with is people act as if MJ is the only co-worker in the history of the world to help a younger co-worker or that he "made" a HOF'er. Why couldn't he "make" Stackhouse, Kukoc, Hamilton, or Gerald Wallace into HOF'ers?
I thought that had more to do with him growing 6 inches than having 'insane drive' :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

I thought that had more to do with him growing 6 inches than having 'insane drive' :confusedshrug:

It was both. His spurt gave him the physical tools to succeed but the will was always there.

It is interesting Kukoc was mentioned. Kukoc is another player MJ worked with early in Kukoc's career. So why isn't Kukoc going to the HOF? Why did Kukoc suck on defense?



He knew, unlike his stans, that team chemistry and intangibles matter. What he didn't have, Pippen had in abundance. Pippen, and Rodman (Grant earlier), allowed Jordan to do what he did best almost uninhabited.

:applause:

[I<3NBA]

only Kobe and Lebron. Durant sucks at defense. at least Kobe in his prime was a defensive beast.